With a little prep work I think you could make Rise of the Dread Moon fit much better as a sequel to Mage of the Mirror while and make the Guardian Knights fit in better as well. I was lucky enough to get my hands on a copy of the Commander of the Guardians Knights, so I plan on using the Knight hero that came with this expansion as Sir Ragnar. The first thing I'd do is change how the Cadre works. Instead of spending gold or Reputation points to get help from the Cadre of the Raven's Veil, I'd have the members of the Cadre help them for free once they acquire enough Rep points with the in character reason being the heroes have earned the Cadre's trust. To tie Mage of the Mirror into Rise of the Dread Moon, in quest 7 I'd have the heroes go to the Temple of the Moon where Sir Ragnar makes his first appearance and they catch him defouling the place. Through his boasting they learn that the Dread Moon is now rising and it's allowing Dread power to seep into the world making monsters stronger, allowing Sinestra to re-enter the world of the living. The heroes watch helplessly as he escapes into the mirror, and cannot follow as Dread Magic begins pouring out of the Realm of Reflection, thus leading into Quest 8, where now the monsters are empowered by the Dread Moon. For quests 8-10 I'd have the monsters get a cumulative attack die, +1 for quest 8, +2 for quest 9 and +3 for quest 10 so show how much of a threat the Dread Moon is. This may seem OP for the monsters, but remember the Cadre is helping the heroes with every mission because of their reputation, not because the heroes have to hire the Cadre every single time with Rep points or gold - so it's assumed all four members will be fighting along side the heroes in a desperate attempt to save their homeland by quest 10. Finally, in Quest 9, for the fight with Sir Ragnar, once he's defeated have a story beat where he laughs and tells the heroes his defeat means nothing, because now thanks to the power of the Dread Moon, Sinestra can return to the world as a Dread Wraith to take her revenge on her sister and the heroes. With this simple change you can make the Dread Wraith the queen's dead sister, killed in Mage of the Mirror, and tie everything together.
Sounds like solid changes. I'm really surprised the Dread Wraith wasn't Sinestra, or maybe Kessandria. For it to be some random enemy seemed like such a disappointment. They really could have done a lot more to work Ragnar into the plot, especially after they made a big deal about his return.
I really like your videos because you show enthusiasm, you break things down very well,and warn about spoilers. You also never just fan-boi out,and gloss over what could've been better. You tell it as you see it. If I had any influence with the makers of this game, then I would hire you as a play tester/ consultant. Kudos. Great video as always.
Thanks. When I first got this box in the mail, I was as excited as the next person. It's such a massive thing for HeroQuest, and I was thrilled to have something totally new to look at. I had to get it all out of my system so I could then sit down and look at it critically.
I feel it could have been tightened up a bit. It's not bad, by any means, though. It's miles ahead of the storytelling in Mage of the Mirror and The Frozen Horror.
It's great to see a better story line that continues and mostly flows through out the quests. You are right, there is room for improvement, but it's a great starting point. Thank you for sharing... I'm still waiting on my copies, but was notified by AH that they were shipped out, and I should be receiving them in the next couple of days.
Thanks ABNB. Awesome coverage of the campaign. It'll be quite some time before my group of players reach this, but I definitely feel able to home brew this with with some tweaks you have hinted at. As for the Elven armour, I really can't see why it can't be combined with bracers. I suspect this was just an omission on the card. The Eleven armour gets worn over the torso, so a wizard with a COP, bracers and the Eleven armour would get 5 defend dice. This seems like a fair evolution of the wizard's stats now that we're onto campaign number 6 (not including mythic tier campaigns). I really love the idea of the Dread Wraith being Sinestra's non-corporeal spirit seeking revenge on those who thwarted her. I think I'm going to make this a thing when my group finally reach his quest. (Now just hoping Sinestra never shows up again in any future expansions.) Thanks again, man, great video!
Thanks for watching. Avalon Hill have confirmed that bracers can't be worn with body armour. That's the official ruling. And yes, I think it's a more satisfying conclusion to the double-part quest for the dread wraith to be Sinestra.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I see - I didn't realise that bracers couldn't be combined with body armour. If that's the official ruling... My group's Dwarf player has Borin's Armour; Bracers and a helmet giving him 6 defence dice. He can't use a shield due to his double-handed Battle Axe. He is a tank.
I expect a lot of people house rule that bracers are fine with body armour, but it can lead to some very beefy builds. Not sure I am keen on a wizard with magic armour, bracers, a wizard's cloak, and rock skin!
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring still, if the extra defence dice encourage the wizard (and others) to dive in and get into combat situations rather than hanging outside a doorway then it can make for a faster and more exciting game.
I just think if you can get the wizard up to 6 defence then you sort of lose something of what makes the wizard the wizard. You end up in a situation where everyone is a frontline fighter... except the rogue. The poor old rogue is doomed, as he gets no good armour options at all.
Turns out AH has confirmed that Cadre of the Ravens Veil can use equipment cards (noting in the rules says they can’t) so they could be equipped with battle Axe & borins armour, you could really beef up there stats..
I haven’t seen where they gave that ruling, but that is preposterous. Why would I spend 100 gold on a striker when I can spend 50 gold on a scout, give him some of my spare armour and weapons, and end up with a character who is basically the striker, but can move faster, disarm traps, and costs half the amount? On top of that, we don't really know what the mercs are armed with to get the stats they start with (what armour does the striker actually have to be defence 5, for example). You have to assume that they are going from the base stat line of attack 1, defend 2, the same as the heroes, so if you did give them any armour, they would have to remove what ever they were wearing before. That means you would struggle to get the striker back up to defence 5, while it would be easy to boost the scout's defence higher than 3.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring this was discussed on the HeroQuest discord with one of AH employees asking why people don’t think outside the box/read whats not in the rules?? For the community HQ was always about lose interpretation & Zargon/morcar having the final say… it also calls into question whether u can use equipment etc on the merc with FH (I haven’t looked at the quest book)
@@Bite.Size.Gaming Sounds like a terrible ruling on their part. Not sure why they would say that's the case, and it's not something I would allow. At the very least Zargon is going to have to rule exact weapon and armour configurations for each merc so you know what you can still give them (does the striker have a shield? What weapon are they using to attack with five dice?).
So far, great video. Love to hear your thoughts. I'll have to watch the rest later, but here are my thoughts so far. I don't mind that the heroes come back and aren't welcome into the city. Some time may have passed, the heroes travelled back to the Realm and are sent back. In that time the city guards could have been taken over by the time the heroes returned and turned them away. The heroes in quest 1 cannot use unthreatened movement to avoid the draining pits. The rule for unthreatened movement specifically says to move as if you rolled two 4's, that would be a double, meaning that the heroes would get pulled toward the drain. Therefore, it would be safer for a hero to take a chance and roll the dice.
Yeah. We’re saying the same thing about the water - the heroes can’t use unthreatened movement. The problem with the heroes suddenly not being welcome is it’s yet another thing that makes this feel like a completely different story rather than a continuation. It feels so disconnected when even the status of the heroes is erased.
I think we are approaching from slightly different angles, but we're saying the same thing. You are saying people can't use unthreatened movement because of the wording "you may treat each red die you would have rolled as a 4" and therefore you have effectively rolled doubles and it's off down the drain. I think that position is open for debate (it is easy to argue that treating something as if it happened is not the same as it actually happening - "would have rolled" is not the same as "rolled"), but regardless, unthreatened movement shouldn't be used on water. So, in any circumstances, Zargon just needs to rule that unthreatened movement isn't possible on water spaces, because Avalon Hill clearly didn't factor unthreatened movement into the design of this particular level and whichever way you rule it there are weird conflicts.
you blew my video away in a few hours! congrats. seriously, always good to hear your thoughts, I have a backlog of your stuff to watch now because I wanted to get my own thoughts out first ;)
I will say that since there is a lack of ability to visit a shop between all quests, it really makes the crafting much more important! They MUST craft potions because they don’t have an opportunity to buy potions! Now that’s a great idea to incorporate into Kellar’s Keep - where each level is supposed to flow into the next - crafting and finding a hide out room within KK could be a cool way to implement new stuff back into the original expansions!
It's a rule that works really with with those sorts of campaigns where shopping wouldn't be feasible, and definitely something worth tinkering with for anyone who has this expansion before starting Kellar's Keep. It's easy to imagine hideouts are abandoned dwarven settlements or guard posts as well.
Also, I think they purposefully withheld Sir Ragnar from a greater role to promote him to his own role/boss/mini in the next brand new expansion! And if they gave us a mini this expansion where he has one quest he’s in, when the next quest comes out people will have two Sir Ragnar minis. Which ultimately goes back to one of my major issues that I posted on your non-spoiler heavy review: not all expansions have to be standalone! Especially if you’re making a sequel quest, require the prior expansion! Now you can use all the same monsters/bad guys from prior expansion without reprinting same bad guys/monsters again! Anyways - thanks for your deep dive review - my kids love the game as I did when I was a kid - but one of the things I always lacked was the creativity to create well thought out and balanced home brew stuff. It’s amazing to hear other fans ideas and recommendations!
The fact they don't kill him in this mission gives me hope that he will turn up again. But if that was the plan, they would have been better off not even having him here. He doesn't add anything to the story - he had nothing to do with Mage of the Mirror, the storyline we are supposedly continuing - so he feels out of place, and his guest appearance only leads to disappointment. His role could have been taken by the corrupt captain of the Elethorn guards or something, and it wouldn't have changed the adventure at all. If Avalon Hil wanted to introduce the idea of Sir Ragnar going bad, then that should have been the whole campaign, with him going rogue with a group of guardian knights and causing trouble in the kingdom. Then it makes sense to introduce the knight hero to battle him - a loyal hero who wants to regain honour for the disgraced guardian knights. That way Avalon Hill could have put the rogue heir in Rise of the Dread Moon (rather than in an expensive character pack), where he fits really well; and we wouldn't have had an elf quest with random references to knights who don't seem to add anything substantial to events.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring: absolutely agree! There’s definitely room for improvement! I think I’ll use some of the other ideas that others have replied with (along with a lot of your ideas) to make it a more cohesive storyline between MotM & RotDM! And using MotM baddies to replace some of the standard baddies here in RotDM! And definitely make that last boss Sinestra trying to come back to this world after she was destroyed in MotM! Definitely make it feel more like a sequel expansion than just a standalone expansion - which come to think of it: that’s likely why they didn’t make the final boss Sinestra, just in case people hadn’t played MotM first? 🤷🏻♂️ But it’s now the 2020’s - we can break the rules of standalone expansions and make one giant storyline by requiring certain expansions be required to play said new expansion! I’m hoping to pull together some great ideas to incorporate The Witch Lord mini I got from Mythic Tier into some standalone quests (maybe modify some of the SundayQuest quests?) to show how The Witch Lord is rising again to power and then making him a true powerhouse in Return of the Witch Lord expansion. Maybe I can do the same for Sir Ragnar by using the New Knight figure in RotDM and have some standalone quests or trilogy of quests that show his downfall? Like maybe he’s an ally in the first quest, but then you see him help out a monster in the second quest, and in the final quest you try to track him down for his treachery only to have him escape with the help of Skulmar or Kessandria? Or maybe even the Witch Lord himself helps Sir Ragnar? Lots of possibilities here!!
I know Avalon Hill want to put their own stamp on Heroquest, but I really wish they would just go ahead and work on the Wizard and Dwarf quests. The folk over at Ye Olde Inn got ahold of the working files for said quests so there is a blueprint that I'm sure Avalon Hill would be in a legal right to draw from; not to take away from the fan project of course. In reality Heroquest always feels right to me simply playing with the original four heroes, would love to see the Wizard and Dwarf similarly expanded with new equipment or spells and the more fantastical enemy roster (ratmen, stone worms, giant spiders, etc. as shown in the 4ups). Don't know how an expansion called Rise of the Dread Moon isn't focused on some sort of gothic horror motif, they did great adding the Specters, where are the Werewolves and Vampires!! Instead of a Guardian Knight you can have a Dhampir Cleric, with a risk reward healing style. Damages himself casting holy spells, but can restore his health through feeding. I don't know.
The absence of werewolves, when they appeared in Mage of the Mirror, is ridiculous. It would have been a good chance to make some plastic werewolves that we could use instead of the cardboard tokens in Mage of the Mirror as well!
I agree with you, it's a decent story and fun quest pack but with some room for improvement. I think it was fairly well done, though, I think it may have had an issue with scope creep. It appears that the pack is trying to accomplish too much. There is a lot going on, and not much is explored in detail. For instance, the Guardian Knights and the Cadre, though mentioned at the beginning, they seem to have a very minimal role to play. I would have liked to see these expanded on in the story.
It sounds like we have a similar opinion. It's a good expansion, and there is an improvement in the storytelling and structure, and some of the new mechanisms are fun, but it really didn't stick the landing with key elements. The knights feel like an afterthought, Sir Ragnar's appearance is a throwaway memberberry, and it really doesn't feel like part of the same story as Mage of the Mirror, especially considering the final boss is something new. Part of the problem is they want their cake and they want to eat it too. They want everything to feel connected, but at the same time they want every expansion to stand alone. So we end up with an expansion that would be ideal for the Rogue Heir, yet he isn't even mentioned. It's a tricky thing to work around, and I don't think they've nailed it yet.
Thank you. I have covered all of the retail expansions, but not to this level of depth. As this was the first quest that wasn't a remake of an old one, I felt it was worth going into a lot more detail. I plan on doing this for all new quest packs going forwards if there is enough demand for it.
I still say mixing this campaign with Mage of the Mirror is the way to go in terms of story & mixing up new / unusual mechanics found in both boxes. Sir Ragnar is working with Sinestra (who seizes the Elven Throne, taking the Royal Family prisoner) and they are now preparing a ritual linked to The Rise of the Dread Moon to summon / free the Boss Wraith from the Realm of Reflection. As part of the Dread Moon effects Elven Citizens start turning into Wolves (possibly that's what the Cultists are doing - infecting the population with the Werewolf curse). The Ogres would be mercenaries under the command of Sir Ragnar, who uses them as Guards for him & Sinestra & as enforcers keeping the traitor elves in line. Ideally I'd probably look to keep other monsters / enemies to a minimum - I like the idea of having Skeletons / Zombies / Abominations as the only monsters found in the sewers (Waterways) & maybe some similar monster restrictions for certain other locations (like if you still rescue the Prospector from the Mine) - otherwise I think you pretty much all the monsters should come from the 2 quest packs - Warrior Elves Elven Archers Magus Guard Elf Assassins Dread Cultists Ogres Giant Wolves Wraiths 3 Bosses (Sir Ragnar, Sinestra & the Boss Wraith) With maybe some Dread Warriors thrown in here and there too - mainly what I'm saying is no Orcs & Goblins needed in this story. Instead of the Wraiths being spirit's of the dead, they would be spirit's escaping from the Realm of Reflection as the ritual progresses / the Dread Moon grows in power. I just think it all fits together better as a single story, instead of trying to make Rise of the Dread Moon "fit" as a sequel to Mage of the Mirror - both campaigns ending with a trip to the Realm of Reflection is just an unnecessary duplication for me. Doing this will take more work, but I think the result would be well worth the time.
Yeah, I think part of the problem was trying to make the continuation to an original quest while also keeping it a standalone adventure. It all feels very disconnected, but with some work it could be a really good, two-part adventure.
I'm not sure about that. If they had a Ragnar miniature ready to go, I think they would have included it. Someone mentioned the other day how the Rogue Heir was a much better fit for a hero for this campaign (member of the cadre, fights with knives and short swords so would be good when disguised) and it got me thinking, what if the rogue was the originally intended hero, but then they made the change following the complaints about the knight character pack?
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Okay, I'm glad I was not the only one who thought of the same thing. Yeah, after looking at this video, this quest seems to be more geared for the Rogue Hero. Overall, I think there must of been a lot of hands in this expansion with no clear communication and organization.
you can use the Knight to represent Sir Ragnar. I'd add some story about the Dread Wraith having absorbed Sinestra from the MOTM campaign. it's a little better seeing his betrayal instead of him just being an afterthought in the epilogue to ROTWL but yeah the "why" isn't answered. lots for Zargon to flesh out if he wants to
You can use any miniature you want to represent Ragnar. Doesn't change the fact they made a big deal about his involvement and then barely included him and didn't give us a miniature to represent him. And you can't use the knight miniature to represent him if you're playing the knight (which I don't think I would anyway, as the knight doesn't feel like the best fit for this expansion).
I don't want to see any quest spoilers until I've played it, but I'm sure this video is great as usual so I'm giving it the engagement I normally would. Looking forward to playing the expansion once my copy arrives and then watching this video afterwards. Cheers.
FANtastic commentary.. thank you. I see your points, but very happy that we got new quests. Also, you could say some help to work out some homebrew ways/ideas to take this story next level. Quest on ⚔️🛡⚔️🛡⚔️
I have looked at all of the expansions, but not in the level of detail I have for Rise of the Dread Moon. This being an entirely new expansion, I gave it a lot more attention, and drilled into the plot much more.
Avalon Hill removed them from their website. If you go to Elvyler's fan page and go to the section on "Quest Order" he has working links for all the free content there.
Core game, Kellar's Keep, Return of the Witch Lord, Frozen Horror, Mage of the Mirror, and Rise of the Dread Moon are the retail releases. Then there are the Mythic books, Prophecy of Telor, Spirit Queen's Torment, and Crypt of Perpetual Darkness. Prophecy of Telor is on the way to retail, so we can assume the others will be too. Besides that, there is a selection of online quests.
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring caltrops, smoke bombs, underground rebellion, the Cadre (all rogues stuff) the only 1 weapon artifact is A dagger. The cover art look rushed to me, is not in the same art style of the other products, it look to me they did a Hero switch at the last moment to fix the knight backlash, even the letter inside the box of the rogue is written in a way that steal the spot of the elf hero in motm
It does feel that way, especially with the rogue heir being a member of the cadre. His complete absence from the plot, let alone the rules, is unusual.
I talked through the interesting parts of each mission and showed the maps. If I showed the notes as well, people could just screen grab my video and make their own quest book, and I didn't feel comfortable with that.
What they do with Ragnar is less important than what they don't do. They don't paint him to be a bad guy. They don't make him a foil. They don't directly say he is under the influence of Dread. It leaves so much nothing on the table that there could be justification that he has been blackmailed by Skullmar, coerced while imprisoned in quest 2, fully betrayed the empire from the onset, or even acting as a double agent to infiltrate the forces of Dread. There is no justification for him to betray the crown. He makes no statement in the quest as to why he is there. And when he tells the heroes they need lumerium, it does not say if this is confession from being defeated ("Tell us how or we will kill you here, traitor!"), spite ("You'll never find her! You'd need lumerium! HAHAHA!"), or repentance ("My friends, I had no choice. But you could still save her!"). I think that was intentional because it has been years of rumors and speculation, that they didn't want to fully pin what Ragnar did and why so the community could still use him as they have.
He has such a small role in the story, I guess they felt it wasn't necessary. The thing is, he shouldn't have had a small role. He should have been the main threat of this campaign.
I'm not sure about that. I think if they ever planned a miniature for Ragnar they would have included it, but due to his minimal involvement, I can't see why they would have gone to the effort to sculpt it.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring In all seriousness though, It sounds like a solid campaign. It reminds me a bit of the Pathfinder Campaign Second Darkness book 4 where you have to infiltrate a Drow city. Its really tense, with the players knowing if they screw up at any moment, their secret identities could be revealed. It is a bit of a shame that the Dread Wraith wasn't just Sinestra... feels like a real missed opportunity there. I think the desire to make all the expansions modular, and enabling the players to tackle them in any order, should be secondary to telling a good story. Sinestra coming back to literally haunt us felt like a natural progression. It would also go a long way to explain why so many of the "good" Queens citizens signed up with Zargon. Still, I think I'd rate this as the second best of Avalon Hills new quest books. It's loads better that the Prophecy of Telor or the Spirit Queen's Torment, but the Crypt of Perpetual Darkness is very good, and I feel the narrative weaves together a bit better. Not to mention better sequel bating. 😁 I really hope that quest book gets a full retail release, everyone should be able to appreciate Joe Magnieloilioiello's work... *I think I spelled that right...?
I still haven't had a chance to look at any of the Mythic campaigns, so I am curious about the forthcoming Prophecy of Telor release. I've heard some people say that Perpetual Darkness isn't very good at all, so I'm pleased to hear you think it's a good one. I got the feeling some people didn't like Joe Mandalorian getting his fingers on their HeroQuest.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Really?! I'll admit to not know much about Joe Michelangelo, aside from the fact that he played "Flash Thompson" in one of the Spider man films, and I watched a hype video for some MTG Halloween themed set where Joe pretended to be a Werewolf. Still I think his Crypt of Perpetual Darkness was quite well written. The only complaints I would levy are these: The Dragon needed more than 5 Body Points. And perhaps the narrative is a little too good for HeroQuest (If that makes sense). Like the whole thing would work way better in a Roleplaying game like D&D or Pathfinder, or Savage Worlds.
That makes sense, Joe is one of those celebrity D&D types (he has been a guest on Critical Role and the like and he is developing a Dragonlance TV show with Wizards of the Coast), so it would make sense that he came up with something that feels like a roleplaying adventure.
Well, to be fair, there really isn't a backstory for any of the heros of Heroquest. Even the Elf and Barbarian campaigns, while mentioning them, don't really delve into the characters at all.
The lack of fluff is something Avalon Hill are clearly drilling into, and the Rogue Heir character has much more of a story than the core heroes. But the more story they write the more risk there is of it falling apart and the more care they need to take to make it all hinge together. Some of Dread Moon falls a little flat in that regard.
THANK YOU for the BEST HeroQuest coverage available on TH-cam! You get the crown!!!!!!
Thank you, that's really generous praise. I really appreciate the kind words.
He gets the crown unless he’s a wizard. Cannot be used by Wizard.
With a little prep work I think you could make Rise of the Dread Moon fit much better as a sequel to Mage of the Mirror while and make the Guardian Knights fit in better as well. I was lucky enough to get my hands on a copy of the Commander of the Guardians Knights, so I plan on using the Knight hero that came with this expansion as Sir Ragnar.
The first thing I'd do is change how the Cadre works. Instead of spending gold or Reputation points to get help from the Cadre of the Raven's Veil, I'd have the members of the Cadre help them for free once they acquire enough Rep points with the in character reason being the heroes have earned the Cadre's trust.
To tie Mage of the Mirror into Rise of the Dread Moon, in quest 7 I'd have the heroes go to the Temple of the Moon where Sir Ragnar makes his first appearance and they catch him defouling the place. Through his boasting they learn that the Dread Moon is now rising and it's allowing Dread power to seep into the world making monsters stronger, allowing Sinestra to re-enter the world of the living. The heroes watch helplessly as he escapes into the mirror, and cannot follow as Dread Magic begins pouring out of the Realm of Reflection, thus leading into Quest 8, where now the monsters are empowered by the Dread Moon. For quests 8-10 I'd have the monsters get a cumulative attack die, +1 for quest 8, +2 for quest 9 and +3 for quest 10 so show how much of a threat the Dread Moon is. This may seem OP for the monsters, but remember the Cadre is helping the heroes with every mission because of their reputation, not because the heroes have to hire the Cadre every single time with Rep points or gold - so it's assumed all four members will be fighting along side the heroes in a desperate attempt to save their homeland by quest 10.
Finally, in Quest 9, for the fight with Sir Ragnar, once he's defeated have a story beat where he laughs and tells the heroes his defeat means nothing, because now thanks to the power of the Dread Moon, Sinestra can return to the world as a Dread Wraith to take her revenge on her sister and the heroes. With this simple change you can make the Dread Wraith the queen's dead sister, killed in Mage of the Mirror, and tie everything together.
Sounds like solid changes. I'm really surprised the Dread Wraith wasn't Sinestra, or maybe Kessandria. For it to be some random enemy seemed like such a disappointment. They really could have done a lot more to work Ragnar into the plot, especially after they made a big deal about his return.
Awesome ideas. Do you do Zargon consultancy work? 😉
I'll definitely be doing this.
I’m gonna bookmark this and come back to it when I am ready to play RotDM!!
Sir Ragnar broke my heart.
This betrayal must be answered with steel >:(
Should have left him to rot.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoringhonestly at this point he feels like Trap-Jaw or Mer-Man when their feeble plots are thwarted by He-Man.
@@orcsmash9 Ha. And we didn't even get to throw them into a river.
I really like your videos because you show enthusiasm, you break things down very well,and warn about spoilers. You also never just fan-boi out,and gloss over what could've been better. You tell it as you see it. If I had any influence with the makers of this game, then I would hire you as a play tester/ consultant. Kudos. Great video as always.
Thanks. When I first got this box in the mail, I was as excited as the next person. It's such a massive thing for HeroQuest, and I was thrilled to have something totally new to look at. I had to get it all out of my system so I could then sit down and look at it critically.
Sounds like a bit of a rewrite of the fluff is very much in order. Still, looking very much forward to playing this. Thanks, as always!
I feel it could have been tightened up a bit. It's not bad, by any means, though. It's miles ahead of the storytelling in Mage of the Mirror and The Frozen Horror.
It's great to see a better story line that continues and mostly flows through out the quests. You are right, there is room for improvement, but it's a great starting point. Thank you for sharing... I'm still waiting on my copies, but was notified by AH that they were shipped out, and I should be receiving them in the next couple of days.
It's a huge step up in storytelling, and there really is a lot to like in the expansion. I hope you have a lot of fun with it when it arrives.
Thanks ABNB. Awesome coverage of the campaign. It'll be quite some time before my group of players reach this, but I definitely feel able to home brew this with with some tweaks you have hinted at. As for the Elven armour, I really can't see why it can't be combined with bracers. I suspect this was just an omission on the card. The Eleven armour gets worn over the torso, so a wizard with a COP, bracers and the Eleven armour would get 5 defend dice. This seems like a fair evolution of the wizard's stats now that we're onto campaign number 6 (not including mythic tier campaigns). I really love the idea of the Dread Wraith being Sinestra's non-corporeal spirit seeking revenge on those who thwarted her. I think I'm going to make this a thing when my group finally reach his quest. (Now just hoping Sinestra never shows up again in any future expansions.) Thanks again, man, great video!
Thanks for watching. Avalon Hill have confirmed that bracers can't be worn with body armour. That's the official ruling.
And yes, I think it's a more satisfying conclusion to the double-part quest for the dread wraith to be Sinestra.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring I see - I didn't realise that bracers couldn't be combined with body armour. If that's the official ruling... My group's Dwarf player has Borin's Armour; Bracers and a helmet giving him 6 defence dice. He can't use a shield due to his double-handed Battle Axe. He is a tank.
I expect a lot of people house rule that bracers are fine with body armour, but it can lead to some very beefy builds. Not sure I am keen on a wizard with magic armour, bracers, a wizard's cloak, and rock skin!
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring still, if the extra defence dice encourage the wizard (and others) to dive in and get into combat situations rather than hanging outside a doorway then it can make for a faster and more exciting game.
I just think if you can get the wizard up to 6 defence then you sort of lose something of what makes the wizard the wizard. You end up in a situation where everyone is a frontline fighter... except the rogue. The poor old rogue is doomed, as he gets no good armour options at all.
I think a fan-edit to this expansion to clean up many of the points you bring up might be in order. Could be a lot of fun.
I am sure someone is already working on it. Just reading through the comments to this video, some people have made great suggestions.
Turns out AH has confirmed that Cadre of the Ravens Veil can use equipment cards (noting in the rules says they can’t) so they could be equipped with battle Axe & borins armour, you could really beef up there stats..
I haven’t seen where they gave that ruling, but that is preposterous. Why would I spend 100 gold on a striker when I can spend 50 gold on a scout, give him some of my spare armour and weapons, and end up with a character who is basically the striker, but can move faster, disarm traps, and costs half the amount? On top of that, we don't really know what the mercs are armed with to get the stats they start with (what armour does the striker actually have to be defence 5, for example). You have to assume that they are going from the base stat line of attack 1, defend 2, the same as the heroes, so if you did give them any armour, they would have to remove what ever they were wearing before. That means you would struggle to get the striker back up to defence 5, while it would be easy to boost the scout's defence higher than 3.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring this was discussed on the HeroQuest discord with one of AH employees asking why people don’t think outside the box/read whats not in the rules?? For the community HQ was always about lose interpretation & Zargon/morcar having the final say… it also calls into question whether u can use equipment etc on the merc with FH (I haven’t looked at the quest book)
@@Bite.Size.Gaming Sounds like a terrible ruling on their part. Not sure why they would say that's the case, and it's not something I would allow. At the very least Zargon is going to have to rule exact weapon and armour configurations for each merc so you know what you can still give them (does the striker have a shield? What weapon are they using to attack with five dice?).
So far, great video. Love to hear your thoughts. I'll have to watch the rest later, but here are my thoughts so far.
I don't mind that the heroes come back and aren't welcome into the city. Some time may have passed, the heroes travelled back to the Realm and are sent back. In that time the city guards could have been taken over by the time the heroes returned and turned them away.
The heroes in quest 1 cannot use unthreatened movement to avoid the draining pits. The rule for unthreatened movement specifically says to move as if you rolled two 4's, that would be a double, meaning that the heroes would get pulled toward the drain. Therefore, it would be safer for a hero to take a chance and roll the dice.
Yeah. We’re saying the same thing about the water - the heroes can’t use unthreatened movement.
The problem with the heroes suddenly not being welcome is it’s yet another thing that makes this feel like a completely different story rather than a continuation. It feels so disconnected when even the status of the heroes is erased.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Ah, sorry. I misunderstood what you said about the movement point. Yes, I'm in agreement.
I think we are approaching from slightly different angles, but we're saying the same thing. You are saying people can't use unthreatened movement because of the wording "you may treat each red die you would have rolled as a 4" and therefore you have effectively rolled doubles and it's off down the drain. I think that position is open for debate (it is easy to argue that treating something as if it happened is not the same as it actually happening - "would have rolled" is not the same as "rolled"), but regardless, unthreatened movement shouldn't be used on water. So, in any circumstances, Zargon just needs to rule that unthreatened movement isn't possible on water spaces, because Avalon Hill clearly didn't factor unthreatened movement into the design of this particular level and whichever way you rule it there are weird conflicts.
you blew my video away in a few hours! congrats. seriously, always good to hear your thoughts, I have a backlog of your stuff to watch now because I wanted to get my own thoughts out first ;)
Thanks for watching.
I will say that since there is a lack of ability to visit a shop between all quests, it really makes the crafting much more important! They MUST craft potions because they don’t have an opportunity to buy potions! Now that’s a great idea to incorporate into Kellar’s Keep - where each level is supposed to flow into the next - crafting and finding a hide out room within KK could be a cool way to implement new stuff back into the original expansions!
It's a rule that works really with with those sorts of campaigns where shopping wouldn't be feasible, and definitely something worth tinkering with for anyone who has this expansion before starting Kellar's Keep. It's easy to imagine hideouts are abandoned dwarven settlements or guard posts as well.
Also, I think they purposefully withheld Sir Ragnar from a greater role to promote him to his own role/boss/mini in the next brand new expansion! And if they gave us a mini this expansion where he has one quest he’s in, when the next quest comes out people will have two Sir Ragnar minis.
Which ultimately goes back to one of my major issues that I posted on your non-spoiler heavy review: not all expansions have to be standalone! Especially if you’re making a sequel quest, require the prior expansion! Now you can use all the same monsters/bad guys from prior expansion without reprinting same bad guys/monsters again!
Anyways - thanks for your deep dive review - my kids love the game as I did when I was a kid - but one of the things I always lacked was the creativity to create well thought out and balanced home brew stuff. It’s amazing to hear other fans ideas and recommendations!
The fact they don't kill him in this mission gives me hope that he will turn up again. But if that was the plan, they would have been better off not even having him here. He doesn't add anything to the story - he had nothing to do with Mage of the Mirror, the storyline we are supposedly continuing - so he feels out of place, and his guest appearance only leads to disappointment. His role could have been taken by the corrupt captain of the Elethorn guards or something, and it wouldn't have changed the adventure at all.
If Avalon Hil wanted to introduce the idea of Sir Ragnar going bad, then that should have been the whole campaign, with him going rogue with a group of guardian knights and causing trouble in the kingdom. Then it makes sense to introduce the knight hero to battle him - a loyal hero who wants to regain honour for the disgraced guardian knights.
That way Avalon Hill could have put the rogue heir in Rise of the Dread Moon (rather than in an expensive character pack), where he fits really well; and we wouldn't have had an elf quest with random references to knights who don't seem to add anything substantial to events.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring: absolutely agree! There’s definitely room for improvement! I think I’ll use some of the other ideas that others have replied with (along with a lot of your ideas) to make it a more cohesive storyline between MotM & RotDM! And using MotM baddies to replace some of the standard baddies here in RotDM! And definitely make that last boss Sinestra trying to come back to this world after she was destroyed in MotM! Definitely make it feel more like a sequel expansion than just a standalone expansion - which come to think of it: that’s likely why they didn’t make the final boss Sinestra, just in case people hadn’t played MotM first? 🤷🏻♂️ But it’s now the 2020’s - we can break the rules of standalone expansions and make one giant storyline by requiring certain expansions be required to play said new expansion!
I’m hoping to pull together some great ideas to incorporate The Witch Lord mini I got from Mythic Tier into some standalone quests (maybe modify some of the SundayQuest quests?) to show how The Witch Lord is rising again to power and then making him a true powerhouse in Return of the Witch Lord expansion. Maybe I can do the same for Sir Ragnar by using the New Knight figure in RotDM and have some standalone quests or trilogy of quests that show his downfall? Like maybe he’s an ally in the first quest, but then you see him help out a monster in the second quest, and in the final quest you try to track him down for his treachery only to have him escape with the help of Skulmar or Kessandria? Or maybe even the Witch Lord himself helps Sir Ragnar? Lots of possibilities here!!
Bad mood? That's his secret, captain... The Frozen Horror is always angry!
I know Avalon Hill want to put their own stamp on Heroquest, but I really wish they would just go ahead and work on the Wizard and Dwarf quests. The folk over at Ye Olde Inn got ahold of the working files for said quests so there is a blueprint that I'm sure Avalon Hill would be in a legal right to draw from; not to take away from the fan project of course. In reality Heroquest always feels right to me simply playing with the original four heroes, would love to see the Wizard and Dwarf similarly expanded with new equipment or spells and the more fantastical enemy roster (ratmen, stone worms, giant spiders, etc. as shown in the 4ups).
Don't know how an expansion called Rise of the Dread Moon isn't focused on some sort of gothic horror motif, they did great adding the Specters, where are the Werewolves and Vampires!! Instead of a Guardian Knight you can have a Dhampir Cleric, with a risk reward healing style. Damages himself casting holy spells, but can restore his health through feeding. I don't know.
The absence of werewolves, when they appeared in Mage of the Mirror, is ridiculous. It would have been a good chance to make some plastic werewolves that we could use instead of the cardboard tokens in Mage of the Mirror as well!
I agree with you, it's a decent story and fun quest pack but with some room for improvement. I think it was fairly well done, though, I think it may have had an issue with scope creep. It appears that the pack is trying to accomplish too much. There is a lot going on, and not much is explored in detail. For instance, the Guardian Knights and the Cadre, though mentioned at the beginning, they seem to have a very minimal role to play. I would have liked to see these expanded on in the story.
It sounds like we have a similar opinion. It's a good expansion, and there is an improvement in the storytelling and structure, and some of the new mechanisms are fun, but it really didn't stick the landing with key elements. The knights feel like an afterthought, Sir Ragnar's appearance is a throwaway memberberry, and it really doesn't feel like part of the same story as Mage of the Mirror, especially considering the final boss is something new.
Part of the problem is they want their cake and they want to eat it too. They want everything to feel connected, but at the same time they want every expansion to stand alone. So we end up with an expansion that would be ideal for the Rogue Heir, yet he isn't even mentioned. It's a tricky thing to work around, and I don't think they've nailed it yet.
I like this video. Will you be doing similar run throughs of the other expansions?
Thank you. I have covered all of the retail expansions, but not to this level of depth. As this was the first quest that wasn't a remake of an old one, I felt it was worth going into a lot more detail. I plan on doing this for all new quest packs going forwards if there is enough demand for it.
I still say mixing this campaign with Mage of the Mirror is the way to go in terms of story & mixing up new / unusual mechanics found in both boxes.
Sir Ragnar is working with Sinestra (who seizes the Elven Throne, taking the Royal Family prisoner) and they are now preparing a ritual linked to The Rise of the Dread Moon to summon / free the Boss Wraith from the Realm of Reflection.
As part of the Dread Moon effects Elven Citizens start turning into Wolves (possibly that's what the Cultists are doing - infecting the population with the Werewolf curse).
The Ogres would be mercenaries under the command of Sir Ragnar, who uses them as Guards for him & Sinestra & as enforcers keeping the traitor elves in line.
Ideally I'd probably look to keep other monsters / enemies to a minimum - I like the idea of having Skeletons / Zombies / Abominations as the only monsters found in the sewers (Waterways) & maybe some similar monster restrictions for certain other locations (like if you still rescue the Prospector from the Mine) - otherwise I think you pretty much all the monsters should come from the 2 quest packs -
Warrior Elves
Elven Archers
Magus Guard
Elf Assassins
Dread Cultists
Ogres
Giant Wolves
Wraiths
3 Bosses (Sir Ragnar, Sinestra & the Boss Wraith)
With maybe some Dread Warriors thrown in here and there too - mainly what I'm saying is no Orcs & Goblins needed in this story.
Instead of the Wraiths being spirit's of the dead, they would be spirit's escaping from the Realm of Reflection as the ritual progresses / the Dread Moon grows in power.
I just think it all fits together better as a single story, instead of trying to make Rise of the Dread Moon "fit" as a sequel to Mage of the Mirror - both campaigns ending with a trip to the Realm of Reflection is just an unnecessary duplication for me.
Doing this will take more work, but I think the result would be well worth the time.
Yeah, I think part of the problem was trying to make the continuation to an original quest while also keeping it a standalone adventure. It all feels very disconnected, but with some work it could be a really good, two-part adventure.
Sir Ragnar mini was suppose to be in this expansion, but at the last minute switched with the Guardian Kinght instead.
I'm not sure about that. If they had a Ragnar miniature ready to go, I think they would have included it.
Someone mentioned the other day how the Rogue Heir was a much better fit for a hero for this campaign (member of the cadre, fights with knives and short swords so would be good when disguised) and it got me thinking, what if the rogue was the originally intended hero, but then they made the change following the complaints about the knight character pack?
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Okay, I'm glad I was not the only one who thought of the same thing. Yeah, after looking at this video, this quest seems to be more geared for the Rogue Hero.
Overall, I think there must of been a lot of hands in this expansion with no clear communication and organization.
It does feel a bit like that. A jumble of good ideas, all fighting to bubble to the surface, and none of them really hitting the full potential.
you can use the Knight to represent Sir Ragnar. I'd add some story about the Dread Wraith having absorbed Sinestra from the MOTM campaign. it's a little better seeing his betrayal instead of him just being an afterthought in the epilogue to ROTWL but yeah the "why" isn't answered. lots for Zargon to flesh out if he wants to
You can use any miniature you want to represent Ragnar. Doesn't change the fact they made a big deal about his involvement and then barely included him and didn't give us a miniature to represent him. And you can't use the knight miniature to represent him if you're playing the knight (which I don't think I would anyway, as the knight doesn't feel like the best fit for this expansion).
I don't want to see any quest spoilers until I've played it, but I'm sure this video is great as usual so I'm giving it the engagement I normally would. Looking forward to playing the expansion once my copy arrives and then watching this video afterwards. Cheers.
Thanks for commenting. I hope you have a lot of fun with the expansion. There's some really good stuff waiting for you!
FANtastic commentary.. thank you.
I see your points, but very happy that we got new quests. Also, you could say some help to work out some homebrew ways/ideas to take this story next level.
Quest on ⚔️🛡⚔️🛡⚔️
Thanks for watching. It's a really good expansion.
Have you done deep dives for the other expansions? As a Rookie Zargon, I would love to hear your thoughts on each quest in KK, ROTWL etc...
I have looked at all of the expansions, but not in the level of detail I have for Rise of the Dread Moon. This being an entirely new expansion, I gave it a lot more attention, and drilled into the plot much more.
Thanks so much. Excellent stuff. Any idea where I can find these free downloadable quests? I can't seem to find them on the AH site...
Avalon Hill removed them from their website. If you go to Elvyler's fan page and go to the section on "Quest Order" he has working links for all the free content there.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Brilliant! Thank you sir!
good call on Skullmar / Skulmar (shades of Zargorn)
How many Story Quest booklets have been released in total now, including the original ones? There seem to be a lot.
Core game, Kellar's Keep, Return of the Witch Lord, Frozen Horror, Mage of the Mirror, and Rise of the Dread Moon are the retail releases. Then there are the Mythic books, Prophecy of Telor, Spirit Queen's Torment, and Crypt of Perpetual Darkness. Prophecy of Telor is on the way to retail, so we can assume the others will be too. Besides that, there is a selection of online quests.
so when can i buy this on amazone?
I ordered it from Amazon UK and received it at the weekend. I have no idea about Amazon in other territories, I'm afraid.
Yes the campaign really feel like was designed for the Rogue Hero, disguise and sneaky operations doesn't fit with the knight
Yeah. He's the completely wrong character in my mind. Even most of the enemies are designed to bypass armour with their spell attacks.
@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring caltrops, smoke bombs, underground rebellion, the Cadre (all rogues stuff) the only 1 weapon artifact is A dagger. The cover art look rushed to me, is not in the same art style of the other products, it look to me they did a Hero switch at the last moment to fix the knight backlash, even the letter inside the box of the rogue is written in a way that steal the spot of the elf hero in motm
It does feel that way, especially with the rogue heir being a member of the cadre. His complete absence from the plot, let alone the rules, is unusual.
You won't show the notes for each quest?
I talked through the interesting parts of each mission and showed the maps. If I showed the notes as well, people could just screen grab my video and make their own quest book, and I didn't feel comfortable with that.
What they do with Ragnar is less important than what they don't do. They don't paint him to be a bad guy. They don't make him a foil. They don't directly say he is under the influence of Dread. It leaves so much nothing on the table that there could be justification that he has been blackmailed by Skullmar, coerced while imprisoned in quest 2, fully betrayed the empire from the onset, or even acting as a double agent to infiltrate the forces of Dread. There is no justification for him to betray the crown. He makes no statement in the quest as to why he is there. And when he tells the heroes they need lumerium, it does not say if this is confession from being defeated ("Tell us how or we will kill you here, traitor!"), spite ("You'll never find her! You'd need lumerium! HAHAHA!"), or repentance ("My friends, I had no choice. But you could still save her!"). I think that was intentional because it has been years of rumors and speculation, that they didn't want to fully pin what Ragnar did and why so the community could still use him as they have.
I personally think that's a very generous interpretation. It will be interesting to see if they ever do anything with him again in a future expansion.
Would love to play your version of this expansion, please create your version of this. I'd love for my group to play it 🙏
Maybe one day I will sit down and figure it all out.
Mine is here!! Buzzin!!
I hope you have fun with it.
Just got to get through all the other expansions first haha 😛
Its criminal there isn't a Ragnor figure
He has such a small role in the story, I guess they felt it wasn't necessary. The thing is, he shouldn't have had a small role. He should have been the main threat of this campaign.
now I think they switched the knight for sir Ragnar
I'm not sure about that. I think if they ever planned a miniature for Ragnar they would have included it, but due to his minimal involvement, I can't see why they would have gone to the effort to sculpt it.
Maggrean? ....hmm... Wasn't she that one elf who went to the shop for 7up and Pringles, but never returned? So that's what happened!
Voted most likely to become a Dread Wraith at school.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring In all seriousness though, It sounds like a solid campaign. It reminds me a bit of the Pathfinder Campaign Second Darkness book 4 where you have to infiltrate a Drow city. Its really tense, with the players knowing if they screw up at any moment, their secret identities could be revealed.
It is a bit of a shame that the Dread Wraith wasn't just Sinestra... feels like a real missed opportunity there. I think the desire to make all the expansions modular, and enabling the players to tackle them in any order, should be secondary to telling a good story. Sinestra coming back to literally haunt us felt like a natural progression. It would also go a long way to explain why so many of the "good" Queens citizens signed up with Zargon.
Still, I think I'd rate this as the second best of Avalon Hills new quest books. It's loads better that the Prophecy of Telor or the Spirit Queen's Torment, but the Crypt of Perpetual Darkness is very good, and I feel the narrative weaves together a bit better. Not to mention better sequel bating. 😁 I really hope that quest book gets a full retail release, everyone should be able to appreciate Joe Magnieloilioiello's work...
*I think I spelled that right...?
I still haven't had a chance to look at any of the Mythic campaigns, so I am curious about the forthcoming Prophecy of Telor release. I've heard some people say that Perpetual Darkness isn't very good at all, so I'm pleased to hear you think it's a good one. I got the feeling some people didn't like Joe Mandalorian getting his fingers on their HeroQuest.
@@AlwaysBoardNeverBoring Really?! I'll admit to not know much about Joe Michelangelo, aside from the fact that he played "Flash Thompson" in one of the Spider man films, and I watched a hype video for some MTG Halloween themed set where Joe pretended to be a Werewolf.
Still I think his Crypt of Perpetual Darkness was quite well written. The only complaints I would levy are these: The Dragon needed more than 5 Body Points. And perhaps the narrative is a little too good for HeroQuest (If that makes sense). Like the whole thing would work way better in a Roleplaying game like D&D or Pathfinder, or Savage Worlds.
That makes sense, Joe is one of those celebrity D&D types (he has been a guest on Critical Role and the like and he is developing a Dragonlance TV show with Wizards of the Coast), so it would make sense that he came up with something that feels like a roleplaying adventure.
Great review
Thank you.
Well, to be fair, there really isn't a backstory for any of the heros of Heroquest. Even the Elf and Barbarian campaigns, while mentioning them, don't really delve into the characters at all.
The lack of fluff is something Avalon Hill are clearly drilling into, and the Rogue Heir character has much more of a story than the core heroes. But the more story they write the more risk there is of it falling apart and the more care they need to take to make it all hinge together. Some of Dread Moon falls a little flat in that regard.
⚔️ 😀 🔝 🌒 👻 🌘 🆒 😉 ⚔️
Good stuff. Thanks ABNB.
Thank you.
Damn, i'm gonna have to not watch this until i'm certain I'll be zargon...
Definitely. This video basically shows everything, and would totally ruin the campaign for anybody playing as a hero.
* claps*