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I’ve tried several serve variations, including the Sampras lag. But you are right…lots of moving parts. And I can never seem to get my toss in the right spot nor high enough. So I tried the method you are demonstrating here and wow it does the trick. I find it easier to get my toss high and into the court and somehow I’m better able to drive my legs. The whipping action, power and consistency are also awesome! At 81 I’m delivering a winning serve against much younger guys. I haven’t got it totally dialed in but things are moving in the right direction! Thank you!
I learned tennis in large part by emulating Pistol Pete and others in that era (my era). For me, the Sampras serve is smoother and has fewer moving parts than the current ATP approach. I use both methods now, maybe 50/50, because the “new” method helps me avoid shoulder impingement issues.
I've recently abbreviated my serve and it has helped so much. I was trying to do the Sampras/Federer backwards pendulum motion thing and it just wasn't working at all.
I think less moving parts is (almost) always a good idea, but here are my thoughts on your Sampras analysis: You gotta take into consideration that Sampras played with an almost 14 oz heavy racquet, so having that "pendulum" type takeback probably helped produce much needed momentum (you can see the same thing in his forehand stroke). Secondly, he had a much bigger coil than players these days; he coiled his shoulders so much that his back was essentially visible to the receiving opponent (similar to McEnroe), so that also plays a role in where his racquet is during the takeback sequence - it'd never look similar to someone like Shelton's. In summary, the "abbreviated" looking serve of Alcaraz, Rune, etc., might not be optimal to copy if you play with a heavier racquet and/or you want to emphasize spin over pace - which is what turning the shoulders ala Sampras does. Good tips, just felt this might be worth pointing out.
Agree with all the above. Sampras was a far superior server than the players mentioned from the "next gen". This videos intent however was to guide what technique recreational players should be emualting. With Pete's super human rotator cuff and above average weight on his racquet, he's a tough one to copy. If an advanced player can do it then by all means they should do so though. Thanks for the comments and for watching!
What your thoughts on Djokovic who uses that strange wrist bend to take it up to that side palm down position. I have tried it and it keeps the wrist very loose. I dont know if it more moving parts. At this point I am struggling so much on whats the best way to start my motion haha
Great analysis! Just reading the comments regarding heavier rackets used by the 90s pros v’s retail spec used by today’s pros, and I think there’s some truth in that. I grew up in the Sampras/Agassi era, and currently use a heavily customised VC95(350g static weight) and tried the pendulum swing and the racket to the side approach. I find the pendulum definitely helps to get the racket moving and on top of the ball at the apex of the toss. I have tried the the racket to the side approach too and find that works for me too, as the ball toss is lower and promotes faster RHS to meet the ball at the apex and producing the ‘elbowing the enemy’ in the trophy pose, so better if you have timing issues like me 👍
something also to consider is how Bublik, Humbert and Popyrin, all live arms, have truncated their service motions in the last year or so, reducing the shape and making it more efficient.
My serve used to look more like Nick Kryrios. Im 5’5 and use to have a mean flat serve. The more full range i try to serve it i would net the ball. I also don’t serve with a platform stance. My stance is pin point, where my right foot starts back then comes forward. When the ball is up i am already half way there. My success came from hitting fast, flat and i had good placement with my serve.
I wonder if a small part of it is racquet weight. A growing trend of the new gen using near retail like specs rather than the clubs of the 90s. Less need for momentum. Indeed an abbreviated serve with a heavy racquet would be counter productive for most rec players I imagine.
Have had shoulder problems due to serve mechanics, and it included a long pendulum, (like Wavrinka). I noticed that I cannot lock my Scapula well when I bring my arm from all the way back, and I am stretch shortening too much pec muscle, which created too much tension on an unstable shoulder ( this is my theory). If I approach from that angle my shoulder hurts everytime. In the heat of the game I always ignored the pain, but this was a wrong approach for me at least. And it reduced my performance, and it reduced the fun for sure, due to pain. I preferred this ("wrong") approach in the first place because I think I had a small deltoid pain as well, so I avoided a side lift. but avoiding that pain, created more pain in the long run. I worked on the deltoid pain, by strengthening the muscle at that angle, and adding a bit of momentum, and a body assist ( arching my chest back, etc) with the side lift and it helped. Now I am working on a shorter and on the side preperation, (like the video said) focusing on locking the scapula a little earlier, it is more like elbow up then back. I noticed that my racket can drop even lower that way. Somehow, the initial scapular rigidity in the beginning, gave me a more flexible backswing? It makes sense because; the shoulder socket is not compromised, and I can now relax everything else more. , I am working on the new timing, but an immediate improvement, beside less pain of course, is the increased top spin I can generate. I hope I am on the right track. for those who have shoulder pain due to serve mechanics, try this, and think of locking scapula, push elbow back, than let the racket dip in the downward lag.
Hey Nick, I'm afraid I'm not entirley familar with the technique suggested for wheelchair tennis. With that being said I would imagine this technique would be conducive for an optimal serve, especially with the energy being derived on the side of the body.
Interesting take. Thought this was just an abbreviated serve. Can see advantages but for the rec play I think the up and down is perfectly fine and easier(if done correctly of course). You really have to be athletic to do that motion and tap into all core and legs. Adult rec players would have a difficult time
Well said. Down together / up together (w/ a lag) is great when done correclty. Sampras is one of the greatest servers of all time if not the best...but as you said it's tough for your average Joe to emulate. Thanks for watching and the feedback
I start in the trophy pose. I have never felt any benefit to anything before this point. My serve is very fast - I have no issues with power at all. Issues in the motion or toss can kill power easily - imo these need to be kept an eye closely.
@@pontusschroder8361 no mate, right arm up and raquet hovering over your head. Left arm as normal. Basically not doing the backswing at all. Just easier for me to do it this way.
1) i wish we would talk more about racquet head speed rather than momentum. The conservation of angular momentum is what generates that speed. 2) Do we know yet what these new techniques do to wrist, elbow, and shoulder over time? Could older players with bad shoulders incorporate these techniques to gain RHS with less shoulder strain?
Good points across the board. Although there's not sufficient data on the impact of the joints with this motion, I suspect there would be less risk in injury than the larger swing paths that utilize a pendulum. In our experience as coaches and discussing this topic with other coaches, the larger swing paths very often lead to improper mechanics at the recreational level hence our recommendations to emulate the more abbreviatted motion of todays players. I would definitely advise older players, or players with shoulder injuries to develope a more abbreviated motion. With racquet head speed largely being the byproduct of the leg drive (and a loose hand /wrist) everyone can find an improvement on their serve as long as serve mechanics are efficient and the movements are well timed. Thanks for the feeback and for watching!
Thx for your always insightful and practical instruction. I have an older friend with rotator cuff issues that prevent painless overhead motion who is not a candidate for cuff repair. In your studies have you seen anyone who addresses sidearm or minimal elevation service motions for such players? We just need him to be able to reasonably start a point in our 30 year doubles foursome. I'd hate to have to switch to pickle ball.😒 Thanks David -Dallas @@Playyourcourt
Looking at Alcaraz Mechanics. He really gets the stretch from the hip-hamstring by outstretching his front side - left leg torso back-to-fro. Its also a timing mechanism for him. Then again, he one of the best in the world. Takes flexibility.
Isn’t this all about how you get into the loading position? The loading positions are very similar regardless of pendulum or abbreviated takeback. But I agree if you do the abbreviated takeback there is less to go wrong. Also the takeback shown in this video is different to the two modern examples given, because the takeback occurs before the tossing arm even moves. Interesting video.
Yup, there's numerous ways players reach the loading phase of the serve but getting their efficiently is the key. The more efficient the starting phase of the serve is the easier it is to keep timing / rhythm and racquet head speed operating at an optimial level. The demo of me hitting serves is to help players find this right to left motion while in the learning phase of utilizing the abbreviated motion. On my natural serve I'll start with the ball and racquet together but we have found doing so while learning a new swing thought is counterproductive due to it leading to old muscle memory. We should have prob clarified that better in the video however. Apprecitte the feedback!
I have trouble with keeping the hitting arm *quiet* and achieving the *LAG!* The hitting arm wants to go up with the tossing arm, instead of lagging the tossing arm. More of an "up together" with little to no lag of the hitting arm relative to tossing arm. ☹ I will try Nate's serve at 5:50 where the hitting arm starts much *higher* than the tossing arm. The exact opposite of a lag. The tossing arm starts really low and is actually lagging the hitting arm. I have never tried that. But maybe starting the motion from that weird position and then moving the hitting arm right to left will ultimately achieve that hitting arm lag later in the motion. 🤔 🎾
Starting with the racquet to the side of your body will allow you to find a more natural right to left (as a righty) motion and subsequently a more organic racquet drop. In time you can bring the ball and racquet together in the starting phase but be careful that the down together, up together motion doesn’t allow old habits to creep in. Motion may look a bit funky at first but will yield some big results!
Thanks! Fan of both of their serves so that's I'll take that as a compliment. In my natural motion and I do start with the ball and racquet together. We chose not to show that here however because a lot of times starting with the ball and racquet together encourages a new method to fall into an old groove. Seperating the moving parts allows for an easier understaning of the new motion.
I tried this long time ago, because Roddick was doing something similar. i could literally feel the power builiding during my serve motion. Now finally someone is understanding what's going on in this mechanic and using it. I abandoned it cause it looked kind of ugly. But i think i will experiment with this again. I think i was just being ignorant in abandoning it cause it doesn't look as pretty.🙂
I'm with ya...I struggled with the aesthetics of the motion as a lot of players do. Having served with a pendulum most of my competitive career I was resistant as well. The truth is, regardless of the level of player I was training, when their serve was abbreviated, it imporved. That was enough for me to make the change. Stay with it! 💪
Sounds like just abbreviating the service motion by just distilling the most important pieces and keeping a loose arm and wrist - Andy Roddick style. Another WTA (retired) player to study is Julia Georges. She was often near the top of most serve metrics while she was on tour.
I think Sinner is the latest example of this tendency. He changed drastically his serve this year. But this classic swingpath is still prezent on Tour - Bashilashvili Dmitrov, or Musetti to name a few There are also many serves thatbare between this 2 techniques lik Paul or van der Zandschlupf. But overally yes - swings are getting more compact.
You really should show alcaraz and sampras from the same angle. I generally agree with the difference in take back you are highlighting, but sampras also has a component of gis serve on the right side. Better to show it so people dont get the wrong impression.
Hi Nate and Scott, I have a question specifically about STRENGTH. Imagine that a tennis player has perfect strokes, footwork, all of it. Imagine that their serve, forehand and backhand look EXACTLY like Federer in his prime, BUT, this player has only 1/2 the muscle strength of Federer. How much would this player's serve speed and groundstroke speed be reduced?
It feels like this motion scales your weapon with Strength. Good on characters carrying a Zweihander, like Alcaraz, Rune, Roddick and Shelton. For the more Dexterity build characters I prefer the McEnroe, Sampras, Federer and Kyrgios motions.
There r all these people talking about power....accuracy is far more important than power...if u serve at 220-230km into the returner's hitting zone it's alot easier to block back then hitting ur spots at 200km ....give me Sampras serve over Shelton, Rune or Alcaraz 7days a week ...and he was still 210km plus with that pro staff...Sampras best serve ever...he basically has 2 first serves...no second serve
Sampras was a far superior server than any player in todays era. Perhaps the greatest of all time. this video however was not 'who is better" but what style / technique should recreational players emulate. Thanks for the comment and for watching!
@@Playyourcourt I'm curious if Sampras serve is better and his technique is easier to emulate than that of say Shelton for example why should recreational player try to learn shelton's technique over learning the technique used by Sampras..ur video is basically telling recreational players to learn a technique to serve as fast as possible ...not as precise and effective as possible
@@Emolga6274 no I wish I could serve like Sampras....just watch the Austrailan Open from next week and u will see the top players break shelton's serve becasue he lacks control and accuracy
I find it hard to get my head around this showing players like Shelton, Rune & Alcaraz. All good servers but they can't hold a candle to Sampras‼Imagine Pete serving today with the racquet & string technology⁉😂😂
Djokovic has the most effective first serve on the tour period. He doesnt need power. So which is his secret? The side leg, top the lagging relaxed hand, his body turn and his 95 heavy prestige type of racket?
This obviously works for Rune and Shelton, but I'm less convinced that Carlos' serve motion is exactly right for him. Maybe it is and it's all about execution, but both Rune and Shelton seem much more fluid in their service motions than Carlos is in his...I think he seems really stiff in the trophy position.
Carlos' arm and wrist are much more flexed, both when he's bringing his arm up to the trophy position and when he's actually in the trophy position. Rune and Shelton both have more relaxed arm and wrist in these phases of their swing.
Hmm…the knee bend would be tough without those said knees. Obviously “loading the legs” is necessary for a proper kinetic chain, the height of your jump however has little to do with power (at least at the recreational level) and more to do with targeting. In fact “jumping” often disrupts most serves at the rec level. One can serve 90-100 mph with their knees on the ground. -Mr. No knees 🤣
How interesting. Because virtually all of the guys you mention in the video will not have serves that will be held in high regard twenty years from now, bar perhaps Shelton. The players with abbreviated motions tend to not have world class serves and really rely on a very good return game. Alcaraz's serve is not world class and his placement is not good enough. Mainly because his use of slice on his serve is not top notch standard. But if you feel amateurs can duplicate the abbreviated motion better with the lighter frames and larger head size then fair enough. Abbreviated? Yes. Excellence? No.
This is mostly stylistic differences. And doesn’t impact serve power. And Sampras does not have a pause, as seen in the clip you show. Fed does and it’s a slight flaw. The motion at the bottom actually builds up the momentum longer and more gradually less strain on the arm and you see the abbreviated more now on tour with lighter racquets. Players with heavier racquets like Sampras and fed and Murray and wood era build up momentum longer from the bottom. And Sampras’ serve and motion is way more effortless and 10x more effective than Rune and Alcaraz how can you even compare them that’s blasphemy hahaha
You’re right, it’s mostly stylistic differences that lead to a more consistent serve. The point here is not that a modern backswing has more power, but that there are less moving parts and a shorter range of motion, which means there is less to go wrong. The server can find the stretch shortening portion of their motion easier. Let’s say someone has first mastered the serve starting in the trophy position like he shows around the 5:50 mark. The hypothesis is that that person could then serve more consistently with the Alcaraz or Rune windup than the Sampras or Lopez windup. The prevalence of the abbreviated windup on tour suggests that tennis academies have adopted that approach.
No doubt, Sampras is one of the greatest servers in the history of the game...if not the greatest. His serve however is difficult to emulate, especially for rec players...hence the recommendation to abbreviate the serve motion like Shelton etc.
Yeah, my thought as well. Pete’s serve was so good that he just went for it even on the second serve if I remember correctly. Not really a kick serve on the second. Pete #goat
By no means are we suggesting Pete had a bad motion. In fact, in my personal opinion, Sampras has the best serve of all time. He also had a super human arm / rotator cuff and was a professional athelte so emulating his motion can be very difficult for a recreational player. But if you can be Pete than by all means... you should be Pete.
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I’ve tried several serve variations, including the Sampras lag. But you are right…lots of moving parts. And I can never seem to get my toss in the right spot nor high enough. So I tried the method you are demonstrating here and wow it does the trick. I find it easier to get my toss high and into the court and somehow I’m better able to drive my legs. The whipping action, power and consistency are also awesome! At 81 I’m delivering a winning serve against much younger guys. I haven’t got it totally dialed in but things are moving in the right direction! Thank you!
Love to hear it my friend! Thanks for the feedback. 💪
You will;l also need to add a lot of lead weight to where your swing weight is near 400g
Good to see you guys still around producing content. Hope you're both well into the holiday and thanks for the post.
Thanks for the kind words! Much appreciated! 🙏
great advice. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
I learned tennis in large part by emulating Pistol Pete and others in that era (my era). For me, the Sampras serve is smoother and has fewer moving parts than the current ATP approach. I use both methods now, maybe 50/50, because the “new” method helps me avoid shoulder impingement issues.
I've noticed this change on the ATP, gonna take my ball hopper out of the garage and give it a try. Good video.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! Let us know how the practice goes! 💪
Was trying to pattern my serve after Kyrgios. Like this better. Seems to give me more time, and shorter wind-up on the hitting arm.
I've recently abbreviated my serve and it has helped so much. I was trying to do the Sampras/Federer backwards pendulum motion thing and it just wasn't working at all.
Glad to hear it's going well! Thanks for the feedback
Hi it seam like the legs are going with the racket in that upward start just before the drop, is easier for timing.
I think less moving parts is (almost) always a good idea, but here are my thoughts on your Sampras analysis:
You gotta take into consideration that Sampras played with an almost 14 oz heavy racquet, so having that "pendulum" type takeback probably helped produce much needed momentum (you can see the same thing in his forehand stroke). Secondly, he had a much bigger coil than players these days; he coiled his shoulders so much that his back was essentially visible to the receiving opponent (similar to McEnroe), so that also plays a role in where his racquet is during the takeback sequence - it'd never look similar to someone like Shelton's.
In summary, the "abbreviated" looking serve of Alcaraz, Rune, etc., might not be optimal to copy if you play with a heavier racquet and/or you want to emphasize spin over pace - which is what turning the shoulders ala Sampras does.
Good tips, just felt this might be worth pointing out.
Agree with all the above. Sampras was a far superior server than the players mentioned from the "next gen". This videos intent however was to guide what technique recreational players should be emualting. With Pete's super human rotator cuff and above average weight on his racquet, he's a tough one to copy. If an advanced player can do it then by all means they should do so though. Thanks for the comments and for watching!
The average rec player serves 80 mph and can’t do Sampras or Alvarez serve even in their dreams
What your thoughts on Djokovic who uses that strange wrist bend to take it up to that side palm down position. I have tried it and it keeps the wrist very loose. I dont know if it more moving parts. At this point I am struggling so much on whats the best way to start my motion haha
Big fan of it...keeping the wrist / hand loose in the beginning phase of the serve is super important. Thanks for watching!
Great analysis! Just reading the comments regarding heavier rackets used by the 90s pros v’s retail spec used by today’s pros, and I think there’s some truth in that. I grew up in the Sampras/Agassi era, and currently use a heavily customised VC95(350g static weight) and tried the pendulum swing and the racket to the side approach. I find the pendulum definitely helps to get the racket moving and on top of the ball at the apex of the toss. I have tried the the racket to the side approach too and find that works for me too, as the ball toss is lower and promotes faster RHS to meet the ball at the apex and producing the ‘elbowing the enemy’ in the trophy pose, so better if you have timing issues like me 👍
Good simple breakdown
Glad it was helpful!
something also to consider is how Bublik, Humbert and Popyrin, all live arms, have truncated their service motions in the last year or so, reducing the shape and making it more efficient.
Bublik especially. Love the simplicity of all their serves. Great examples, thanks!
Tiafoe also.
Excellent analysis. 😃
Glad you liked it!
My serve used to look more like Nick Kryrios. Im 5’5 and use to have a mean flat serve. The more full range i try to serve it i would net the ball. I also don’t serve with a platform stance. My stance is pin point, where my right foot starts back then comes forward. When the ball is up i am already half way there. My success came from hitting fast, flat and i had good placement with my serve.
Very well explained.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
I like the simplicity of this new technique
I wonder if a small part of it is racquet weight. A growing trend of the new gen using near retail like specs rather than the clubs of the 90s. Less need for momentum. Indeed an abbreviated serve with a heavy racquet would be counter productive for most rec players I imagine.
Thats an intersting insight. Definitely easier to get the racquet moving with a lighter racquet.
Have had shoulder problems due to serve mechanics, and it included a long pendulum, (like Wavrinka). I noticed that I cannot lock my Scapula well when I bring my arm from all the way back, and I am stretch shortening too much pec muscle, which created too much tension on an unstable shoulder ( this is my theory). If I approach from that angle my shoulder hurts everytime. In the heat of the game I always ignored the pain, but this was a wrong approach for me at least. And it reduced my performance, and it reduced the fun for sure, due to pain.
I preferred this ("wrong") approach in the first place because I think I had a small deltoid pain as well, so I avoided a side lift. but avoiding that pain, created more pain in the long run. I worked on the deltoid pain, by strengthening the muscle at that angle, and adding a bit of momentum, and a body assist ( arching my chest back, etc) with the side lift and it helped.
Now I am working on a shorter and on the side preperation, (like the video said) focusing on locking the scapula a little earlier, it is more like elbow up then back. I noticed that my racket can drop even lower that way. Somehow, the initial scapular rigidity in the beginning, gave me a more flexible backswing?
It makes sense because; the shoulder socket is not compromised, and I can now relax everything else more. ,
I am working on the new timing, but an immediate improvement, beside less pain of course, is the increased top spin I can generate. I hope I am on the right track.
for those who have shoulder pain due to serve mechanics, try this, and think of locking scapula, push elbow back, than let the racket dip in the downward lag.
What would be optimum for wheelchair tennis?
Hey Nick, I'm afraid I'm not entirley familar with the technique suggested for wheelchair tennis. With that being said I would imagine this technique would be conducive for an optimal serve, especially with the energy being derived on the side of the body.
Interesting take. Thought this was just an abbreviated serve. Can see advantages but for the rec play I think the up and down is perfectly fine and easier(if done correctly of course). You really have to be athletic to do that motion and tap into all core and legs. Adult rec players would have a difficult time
Well said. Down together / up together (w/ a lag) is great when done correclty. Sampras is one of the greatest servers of all time if not the best...but as you said it's tough for your average Joe to emulate. Thanks for watching and the feedback
@@Playyourcourt I think he's saying the opposite...
@@ishanr8697 Yes, he is. But it depends. On average the abbreviated technique is easier for a rec player.
I start in the trophy pose. I have never felt any benefit to anything before this point. My serve is very fast - I have no issues with power at all. Issues in the motion or toss can kill power easily - imo these need to be kept an eye closely.
What do you mean by starting in the trophy position? Do you first hold your left arm up and then lower it to toss and then raise it again?
@@pontusschroder8361 no mate, right arm up and raquet hovering over your head. Left arm as normal. Basically not doing the backswing at all. Just easier for me to do it this way.
@@dhat1607 Ah, got it! thanks for explaining. I will try that!
Could you analyze about kyrigos power serve? I'd like to play like that in our club! 😊😊
Me too! lol this is an old video we did on the Kyrigos serve...check it out! th-cam.com/video/h8rp2Hmqcuo/w-d-xo.html
1) i wish we would talk more about racquet head speed rather than momentum. The conservation of angular momentum is what generates that speed. 2) Do we know yet what these new techniques do to wrist, elbow, and shoulder over time? Could older players with bad shoulders incorporate these techniques to gain RHS with less shoulder strain?
Good points across the board. Although there's not sufficient data on the impact of the joints with this motion, I suspect there would be less risk in injury than the larger swing paths that utilize a pendulum. In our experience as coaches and discussing this topic with other coaches, the larger swing paths very often lead to improper mechanics at the recreational level hence our recommendations to emulate the more abbreviatted motion of todays players. I would definitely advise older players, or players with shoulder injuries to develope a more abbreviated motion. With racquet head speed largely being the byproduct of the leg drive (and a loose hand /wrist) everyone can find an improvement on their serve as long as serve mechanics are efficient and the movements are well timed. Thanks for the feeback and for watching!
Thx for your always insightful and practical instruction. I have an older friend with rotator cuff issues that prevent painless overhead motion who is not a candidate for cuff repair. In your studies have you seen anyone who addresses sidearm or minimal elevation service motions for such players? We just need him to be able to reasonably start a point in our 30 year doubles foursome. I'd hate to have to switch to pickle ball.😒 Thanks David -Dallas @@Playyourcourt
Correct! The pendulum always gives me up together down together
Looking at Alcaraz Mechanics. He really gets the stretch from the hip-hamstring by outstretching his front side - left leg torso back-to-fro. Its also a timing mechanism for him. Then again, he one of the best in the world. Takes flexibility.
Isn’t this all about how you get into the loading position? The loading positions are very similar regardless of pendulum or abbreviated takeback. But I agree if you do the abbreviated takeback there is less to go wrong. Also the takeback shown in this video is different to the two modern examples given, because the takeback occurs before the tossing arm even moves. Interesting video.
Yup, there's numerous ways players reach the loading phase of the serve but getting their efficiently is the key. The more efficient the starting phase of the serve is the easier it is to keep timing / rhythm and racquet head speed operating at an optimial level. The demo of me hitting serves is to help players find this right to left motion while in the learning phase of utilizing the abbreviated motion. On my natural serve I'll start with the ball and racquet together but we have found doing so while learning a new swing thought is counterproductive due to it leading to old muscle memory. We should have prob clarified that better in the video however. Apprecitte the feedback!
@@Playyourcourt Okay. Gotcha. I really need to try this. Thanks.
I have trouble with keeping the hitting arm *quiet* and achieving the *LAG!* The hitting arm wants to go up with the tossing arm, instead of lagging the tossing arm. More of an "up together" with little to no lag of the hitting arm relative to tossing arm.
☹
I will try Nate's serve at 5:50 where the hitting arm starts much *higher* than the tossing arm. The exact opposite of a lag. The tossing arm starts really low and is actually lagging the hitting arm. I have never tried that. But maybe starting the motion from that weird position and then moving the hitting arm right to left will ultimately achieve that hitting arm lag later in the motion. 🤔 🎾
This how Roddick and Berrettini serve the only difference is that they touch the ball with the racket at the beginning
Starting with the racquet to the side of your body will allow you to find a more natural right to left (as a righty) motion and subsequently a more organic racquet drop. In time you can bring the ball and racquet together in the starting phase but be careful that the down together, up together motion doesn’t allow old habits to creep in. Motion may look a bit funky at first but will yield some big results!
Your Last demostration with starting high is how Berrettini and Roddik serve they just touch the ball with the racket at the beginning
Thanks! Fan of both of their serves so that's I'll take that as a compliment. In my natural motion and I do start with the ball and racquet together. We chose not to show that here however because a lot of times starting with the ball and racquet together encourages a new method to fall into an old groove. Seperating the moving parts allows for an easier understaning of the new motion.
Reminds me of Andy Roddick's serve motion...
100%
I tried this long time ago, because Roddick was doing something similar. i could literally feel the power builiding during my serve motion. Now finally someone is understanding what's going on in this mechanic and using it. I abandoned it cause it looked kind of ugly. But i think i will experiment with this again. I think i was just being ignorant in abandoning it cause it doesn't look as pretty.🙂
I'm with ya...I struggled with the aesthetics of the motion as a lot of players do. Having served with a pendulum most of my competitive career I was resistant as well. The truth is, regardless of the level of player I was training, when their serve was abbreviated, it imporved. That was enough for me to make the change. Stay with it! 💪
nice job buddy
Thank ya sir. Hope you and the fam had a great holiday season!
refreshing view
Sounds like just abbreviating the service motion by just distilling the most important pieces and keeping a loose arm and wrist - Andy Roddick style. Another WTA (retired) player to study is Julia Georges. She was often near the top of most serve metrics while she was on tour.
I think Sinner is the latest example of this tendency. He changed drastically his serve this year.
But this classic swingpath is still prezent on Tour - Bashilashvili Dmitrov, or Musetti to name a few There are also many serves thatbare between this 2 techniques lik Paul or van der Zandschlupf. But overally yes - swings are getting more compact.
Fed is "between the two" also if you will... 😈
You really should show alcaraz and sampras from the same angle. I generally agree with the difference in take back you are highlighting, but sampras also has a component of gis serve on the right side. Better to show it so people dont get the wrong impression.
Couldn't agree more but finding footage of Sampras from behind was daunting. Strange I know...
Hi Nate and Scott, I have a question specifically about STRENGTH. Imagine that a tennis player has perfect strokes, footwork, all of it. Imagine that their serve, forehand and backhand look EXACTLY like Federer in his prime, BUT, this player has only 1/2 the muscle strength of Federer. How much would this player's serve speed and groundstroke speed be reduced?
pete for sure the best server!
Agreed
Sampras also played with a weighted swing weight of almost 400g so ya. He needed that full motion swing to wield that sledge hammer of a serve.
It feels like this motion scales your weapon with Strength. Good on characters carrying a Zweihander, like Alcaraz, Rune, Roddick and Shelton. For the more Dexterity build characters I prefer the McEnroe, Sampras, Federer and Kyrgios motions.
When someone serves better than Sampras or Kyrgios, I'll consider changing my technique.
Until then, the method displayed here is 2nd best.
Super duper awesome
Thanks again!
There r all these people talking about power....accuracy is far more important than power...if u serve at 220-230km into the returner's hitting zone it's alot easier to block back then hitting ur spots at 200km ....give me Sampras serve over Shelton, Rune or Alcaraz 7days a week ...and he was still 210km plus with that pro staff...Sampras best serve ever...he basically has 2 first serves...no second serve
Sampras was a far superior server than any player in todays era. Perhaps the greatest of all time. this video however was not 'who is better" but what style / technique should recreational players emulate. Thanks for the comment and for watching!
I'm right there with you about the Sampras serve. Take into account the ability to execute big serves under big pressure. Numero uno IMO
@@Playyourcourt I'm curious if Sampras serve is better and his technique is easier to emulate than that of say Shelton for example why should recreational player try to learn shelton's technique over learning the technique used by Sampras..ur video is basically telling recreational players to learn a technique to serve as fast as possible ...not as precise and effective as possible
@@angk9561u wish u can do Shelton serve
@@Emolga6274 no I wish I could serve like Sampras....just watch the Austrailan Open from next week and u will see the top players break shelton's serve becasue he lacks control and accuracy
Basically going back to the Andy Roddick serve.
Felinciano??
He definitely has trouble with that one.
For me is Sampras motion easier : Kyrgius,Rosset,Karlovic,Djokovic have simular motion.
A lot of Roddick in this serve technique.
There were 7 minutes that I could never get back.
Those were 7 seconds I can never get back. 😉
I'm finding simply focusing on elbow back everything else follows naturally
I find it hard to get my head around this showing players like Shelton, Rune & Alcaraz. All good servers but they can't hold a candle to Sampras‼Imagine Pete serving today with the racquet & string technology⁉😂😂
Djokovic has the most effective first serve on the tour period. He doesnt need power. So which is his secret? The side leg, top the lagging relaxed hand, his body turn and his 95 heavy prestige type of racket?
Variety and accuracy!
The core of the video: 3:29
This obviously works for Rune and Shelton, but I'm less convinced that Carlos' serve motion is exactly right for him. Maybe it is and it's all about execution, but both Rune and Shelton seem much more fluid in their service motions than Carlos is in his...I think he seems really stiff in the trophy position.
Carlos' arm and wrist are much more flexed, both when he's bringing his arm up to the trophy position and when he's actually in the trophy position. Rune and Shelton both have more relaxed arm and wrist in these phases of their swing.
Agree..I'd recommend the racquet face starting down over the racquet tip being up as seen on the Alacaraz serve.
The old way was to accommodate serve and volley tactic. The new way felt not as fluid as the old way.
OK Coach that is the modern serve with less moving parts for better timing and power, Good tip anyway.
it's Roddick serve
Those serves look a lot like Andy Roddick serve. Which we all know is mostly genetics
RODDICK , KARLOVIC older players using this already
No finer example than Roscoe Tanner who was doing it in the 70s lol nothing new
According to this guy, you don't need to use your legs because he serves like he has no knees.
Hmm…the knee bend would be tough without those said knees. Obviously “loading the legs” is necessary for a proper kinetic chain, the height of your jump however has little to do with power (at least at the recreational level) and more to do with targeting. In fact “jumping” often disrupts most serves at the rec level. One can serve 90-100 mph with their knees on the ground.
-Mr. No knees 🤣
The word “especially” does not have an “x” or an “x” sound.
In the south it does 😉
alcaraz, Rune dont have good servs...shelton has a big serve but could be more efficient
Do not serve like Sampras??? Oh, ok... I'll keep that in mind 😂
I mean unless you can...then definitely serve like Sampras! 😉🤣
How interesting. Because virtually all of the guys you mention in the video will not have serves that will be held in high regard twenty years from now, bar perhaps Shelton. The players with abbreviated motions tend to not have world class serves and really rely on a very good return game. Alcaraz's serve is not world class and his placement is not good enough. Mainly because his use of slice on his serve is not top notch standard.
But if you feel amateurs can duplicate the abbreviated motion better with the lighter frames and larger head size then fair enough.
Abbreviated? Yes. Excellence? No.
This is mostly stylistic differences. And doesn’t impact serve power. And Sampras does not have a pause, as seen in the clip you show. Fed does and it’s a slight flaw. The motion at the bottom actually builds up the momentum longer and more gradually less strain on the arm and you see the abbreviated more now on tour with lighter racquets. Players with heavier racquets like Sampras and fed and Murray and wood era build up momentum longer from the bottom. And Sampras’ serve and motion is way more effortless and 10x more effective than Rune and Alcaraz how can you even compare them that’s blasphemy hahaha
You’re right, it’s mostly stylistic differences that lead to a more consistent serve. The point here is not that a modern backswing has more power, but that there are less moving parts and a shorter range of motion, which means there is less to go wrong. The server can find the stretch shortening portion of their motion easier. Let’s say someone has first mastered the serve starting in the trophy position like he shows around the 5:50 mark. The hypothesis is that that person could then serve more consistently with the Alcaraz or Rune windup than the Sampras or Lopez windup. The prevalence of the abbreviated windup on tour suggests that tennis academies have adopted that approach.
Bit stuck in the past.
Few things wrong some good points.
Early Fed had no pause and was better.
Would Sampras serve be dominant now ?
No too slow .
I dont like that wrist positioning on the ”new style”
Out of curiosity, what in particular? It being curled?
@@PlayyourcourtYeah
So stupid as Sampras’ serve was way more deceptive than Sheltons is….
No doubt, Sampras is one of the greatest servers in the history of the game...if not the greatest. His serve however is difficult to emulate, especially for rec players...hence the recommendation to abbreviate the serve motion like Shelton etc.
So I’m supposed to take a video seriously that shows Pete on the cover as a bad example?
Clowning much?
Yeah, my thought as well. Pete’s serve was so good that he just went for it even on the second serve if I remember correctly. Not really a kick serve on the second. Pete #goat
By no means are we suggesting Pete had a bad motion. In fact, in my personal opinion, Sampras has the best serve of all time. He also had a super human arm / rotator cuff and was a professional athelte so emulating his motion can be very difficult for a recreational player. But if you can be Pete than by all means... you should be Pete.