Richard Carrier | Mystery Cults & Christianity (2019)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ค. 2019
- Dr. Richard Carrier talks about the emergence of mystery cults and how their characteristics resemble early Christianity.
Presented by Gotham Atheists.
Meetup: www.meetup.com/GothamAtheists
Facebook: / gothamatheists
Twitter: @GothamAtheists
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Richard Carrier is a world-renowned author and speaker. As a professional historian, published philosopher, and prominent defender of the American freethought movement, Dr. Carrier has appeared across the U.S., Canada and the U.K., and on American television and London radio, defending sound historical methods and the ethical worldview of secular naturalism. His books and articles have received international attention. With a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history, he specializes in the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, particularly ancient philosophy, religion, and science, with emphasis on the origins of Christianity and the use and progress of science under the Roman empire. He is also a published expert in the modern philosophy of naturalism as a worldview. He is the author of On the Historicity of Jesus, Proving History, Sense and Goodness without God, The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire, Science Education in the Early Roman Empire, Not the Impossible Faith, Why I Am Not a Christian, and Hitler Homer Bible Christ, and a contributor to The Empty Tomb, The Christian Delusion, The End of Christianity, and Christianity Is Not Great, as well as copious work in history and philosophy, online and in print.
What makes Richard so acceptable is he never tries to convert the audiences but let's them digest his findings which are without doubt overwhelming to reflect their own religious opinions and hopefully refute the story's of pure Revelation built on sand and bring faith into a more modern , practical and caring society, allowing Mankind to survive together without the shackles of religion
Always solid info from Richard. His intelligence and ability to clearly articulate his subjects are amazing.
Lol "solid info". This dude is an absolute moron who thinks the most influential human being to ever exist, never existed. Anyone who believes something this dumb has rocks in their head.
He's definitely been in the "Trenches" going from Buddhist to Christian to an Atheist.
@@wallaceshawn-zk8iw also Marxist to Ayn Rand 😮
@@johncarroll772 Actually he was Methodist, then Taoist & finally Atheist. My bad for earlier comment...
It’s amazing how active gods are in various ancient books, but nothing since. Maybe it's a camera phone to blame?
You have to realize the concept of the Microcosm (Man) versus the Macrocosm (the Cosmos). Sure, they told all these stories about the "gods" and "goddesses" in the cosmos, but the whole point of the story was in the Microcosm. In other words, the whole point of the stories about the gods was to illustrate certain aspects of the human psyche and nervous system and whatnot. As Above, So Below -- means it's not about the Sun, the planets and the stars, it's about YOU, dummy. 8-)
@@coreywicks1451 What a lovely sophistry you have there. People have been drawing supernatural causation ever since a Caveman saw an animal, thought to be dead, leap up and run away after a lightning bolt struck nearby.
@@GodEqualstheSquaRootof-1 It's not that simple. I love Richard Carrier's presentations, but he doesn't appear to be familiar with the actual content of the mystery teachings. And you can tell in his anecdotes about such things that he has a bit of a childish conception of them, just like you do. In fact, initiates of the those mysteries know that the teaching and practice is highly sophisticated. It then becomes truly a mystery as to how they had such sophisticated teachings at the very dawn of human civilization. This is something way beyond cave drawings of animals. Yet something that runs parallel to the latest quantum physics. Treat it glibly and you self-select yourself from learning something incredible.
@@coreywicks1451 How did you rule out the fact that deities are man made?
@@GodEqualstheSquaRootof-1 Your question is irrelevant because it fails to understand what gods were and how they were utilized within the ancient mystery schools. Hint: everything you've ever heard has been an exoteric (outside) interpretation. I'm talking about the esoteric interpretation of these teachings.
Although I came to this lecture four years late,it seemed to me to be as refreshing this morning as it was then.Thank you.
The Egyptians had mystery schools way before the Greeks, they traveled to Egypt to learn from them
They never did they never had any Mystery Schools that's a stupid lie made up by gnostics shits today who don't know anything about Egypt.
Mystery groups or sects are from the greco egyptian post classical time and during imperial Rome. So you don't know what you are talking about. There's no schools either.
I'm sure the Babylonians and Sumerians did as well. In fact, many early religions around the world have had elements of "mystery schools."
There's a passage in the Egyptian Book of the Dead: "I have eaten the flesh of the gods, and have become one." Or something like that.
Dr Carrier is one of the best
Thank evolution for Richard Carrier.
@Steve please explain.
@Steve in what respect?
@Steve are you implying that he will suffer a punishment that only exists in the minds of people who believe in Bronze Age Mythology?
@Steve a piece of bread that has been exposed to a heating element? Without explanation your comment is meaningless.
@Steve I was wondering if you had any actual evidence that such a place exists. Somehow I doubt it.
With Richard's great work and scholarship we have almost uncovered the whole truth.
He is certainly taking us in the right direction.
not finished until cognitive science explains religious transformation experience reflected in mystery religions -- positive comprehension of myth as description of that
Aw man, so bummed I missed this, had no idea he was in NYC for this event! What a great explanation about the aspects of these mystery cults!
Robert Price and Richard Carrier are my top two experts on digging about the historicity of Jesus. Imagine the amount of time doing the research and how difficult it has always been to get sources about the subject. I really admire their dedication regarding their research.
@Queen of The south The fact that you believe your own fantasies doesn't make them the least bit real.
Queen of Delusion: Self-delusion is a real thing. The fact that you have deluded yourself with a religious story is not the least bit remarkable. It does, however, demonstrate that you have a TERRIBLE understanding of logic and critical thinking.
HHAHAHA Carrier and Price been caught lying repeatedly. Best get some new role models.
@@henochparks Yet we both know you CANNOT and you WILL NOT demonstrate ANY timenthey have lied. Either show evidence for your claim or go back to being the coward you are.
@@jlong9574 HAHAHA I have done do endlessly but you ignored it. Both Carrier and Price ask their listeners if Jesus was a real person then why are there no records of him from Judea? They both are liars deceiving their ignorant victims because they both know there are no records from Judea during Jesus' time. Judean records were burned by the Romans twice. Want more? Both Carrier and Price lie to claim the town of Nazareth did not exist during Jesus time. Real scholars and their readers know that the Nazareth of Jesus time has been found by Israeli archeologists more than fifteen years ago.. HAHAHA want more? Or are you going to hide some more? We can do this all day. Price and Carrier are only fooling the uneducated such as yourself. As for me being a coward I am a former Airborne Infantry Recon Paratrooper. A Company. 2/325 ABN 82nd Airborne Division. I am a handicapped vet. due to my service to the U.S.of A pal. Hurt from 29 jumps some of which did not go well. You can view my photos and see me getting ready to jump at Pope Air Force Base near FT.Bragg. Best get some education and some huevos before playing silly bugger games again.
Great work, Dr. Richard Carrier. Christianity nakedly dissected.
The archetype of the Higher Self. The Hero with a thousand faces.
Brought to you, by all the Gods, living or deceased who contributed to this video. Any relation to any Gods living or deceased in this video, will be disavowed. (Disclaimer).
@Elmer Fudd Good one...Love it! 😁
So cool to see this presentation by Dr. Carrier. Thank you so much for your work in helping connect the dots for so many people.
As a species, if humans were able to feel unconditional love towards all other humans, it would not be possible to worship an image of a judge-mental god.
Only a woman could make this comment. I agree but young men are not going to be able to do it. They wanna fight and old men want them to fight. It’s a problem.
@@williamcarr459 Women can be every bit as vicious as men, and every bit as cunning.
From the book … WOMEN WHO RAPE MEN … author … John David BA JD LLM
Many people still have the mistaken impression that it is physically impossible for a woman to rape a man because a woman does not have a penis.
What this misconception overlooks is that a woman can force her vagina over a man’s penis (known as “forced envelopment” or “forced to penetrate”), or, a woman can use threats, emotional manipulation, drugs, alcohol, and a variety of other means to induce a man to penetrate her vagina. This latter phenomenon is known as “made to penetrate rape.”
As our culture advances in its awareness of men and boys who are victims of women who rape, it may become increasingly possible for men to report rape to authorities, and, have those reports be taken with sensitivity and seriousness. As difficult as it may be for a male rape survivor, it is important that the survivor consider reporting the rape to authorities.
Women can also rape a man by using an object, or one of her body parts, to penetrate his anus. This is a very common method women use to rape young boys. Keeping in mind that rape is not just about sex, but is about power, many female sex predators feel that humiliating a man or boy, by anal penetration, is a form of domination and exercising power and control over the victim. It is rape.
Telling a man that you want to have intercourse with him but don’t want to get pregnant (by engaging in sex with a condom) while planning to steal the man’s sperm for insemination is arguably “fraud in fact.”
As most attorneys are aware, fraud voids consent. Consequently, in a case like the one described above, the woman arguably committed first degree rape by obtaining the man’s participation in sex under false pretenses.
This dramatic increase in the numbers of women who are rapists and sex offenders has drawn the concern of NGO’s and women leaders across the U.S.
Both forced envelopment, and, made to penetrate, are first-degree rape under the modern laws of most jurisdictions.
Can humans feel unconditional love? Let’s not pre-suppose like those pesky mono-theists
@@JohnRhodes-lv3rg I don't know about you ... but I don't believe there is such an emotion as "unconditional" love.
We are born selfish ... and we always want something in return for our "investments."
@@junevandermark952 I believe this as well mate
Excellent presentation by Dr. Carrier, & great video production by this channel. Job well done.
I appreciated this lecture and also the intelligent questions/discussion from the audience. This is the best of humanity.
I always end up looking at the faces of the people attending a lecture like this and wondering more about them than anything that was said by the lecturer. That's why I'm an advocate of strict lecture facial limitations.
Soo many new rabbit holes to fall into
P
God I love Richard Carrier
He’d probably be great to party with too🤪
Richard I love God carrier
LOL
but does god?
@@uttaradit2 god who?
Im one of the few Christian that love hearing this truth, thanks Richard sorry i meant im not a christian
@Will because u have no understanding where im coming from
@Will A true christian noes his true name and not that all caps name corporation see justinian deception u'll understand then see Quassi bible of the new world order by Romely Stewart on justinian deception
@Will ur ignorance don't help matters
o your just a cristino or cretino
You sound like you could benefit from psychology more so than from religion. Good luck 🤙
I know I'm in a good place when I start a video and immediately learn something. Ahhh. I love it.
I would like to point out that the divine sacrifice/resurrection motif was also in the New World Mayan religion as well.
What about Norse gods? It seems he picks the easy Woke targets instead of why man created gods in the first place.
@@docastrov9013 anthropomorphism. Read some Feuerbach.
A particularly telling session, relegating Christianity to its correct place among any number of other co-religions, but raised artificially on the shoulders of the LATEST conquerer nations (especially the USA) to be above all others... but at heart, just another mystery cult, and now in its correct place as demonstrated so comprehensively by Richard. This really does take you back BEFORE you were raised a "christian", so graphic is his placement of christianity in its correct category. An atheist for quite a few decades, this talk still had quite an impact for me. One simply sees the issue with renewed (and blatant) clarity.
“…The latest conqueror nations, especially the USA…”?
@@michaelmelamed9103 He probably means the way some countries view us,like how we get involved in Vietnam & Iraq.
Didn't know the US was involved in the crusades.
I think Constantine and Catholic Rome and Christianisation of Europe, then colonisation taking it/enforcing it round the world were the significant steps, not the USA!
Yes, Dr Carrier is on point regarding Islam as an earlier form of Christianity. Authors such as Stephen Shoemaker synthesize this perfectly. It's shams all around!
If only the ancient Persians had better intellectual property laws; there would be no abrahamic religions! 😂
glad to see that he has refined his talk about the historicity. love the 4k video quality and videography! excellent! thank you, guys! subscribed!
historicity? really?
@@HarryNicNicholas - the question of historicity
Amazing speech. I always appreciate this sort of analytical ideas.
He seems a little confused to me. Like he's not sure whether to believe himself.
@@l.m.892 Proverbs 14:15 says, “ Fools will believe anything” (New Century Version). Anytime you want to prove your book of debunked ancient fairy tales with the talking snake, talking donkey, 900-year-old men, virgin birth and zombies, which promises magic poison resistance to believers---go ahead! "And these signs will accompany those who believe...when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all" (Mark 16:17-18). Go ahead! Let’s see you post a video showing you drinking deadly poison without harm. What happens when fools believe liars? "A preacher and another leader...died early yesterday after drinking strychnine at a service" - 2 Drink Strychnine At Service and Die In Display of Faith, New York Times. It's not like the Bible is full of lies, right? Dr. Bart Ehrman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina: "But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that *the Bible is full of lies* , even if they refuse to use the term." - Who Wrote The Bible and Why It Matters
@@mythbuster1483 “ Fools will believe anything”. Yeah. Look at the fools who believe political leaders are here to serve the people. Your words are misdirected. You should be doing what you can to help others live better lives. badmouthing Christianity or Christians will have minimal or negative impact on improving lives today. Example: how would badmouthing Christianity help to solve the deforestation, pollution, or general decline of society problems we are in the middle of?
@@l.m.892 Your words are misdirected. You should be doing what you can to help others live better lives. Don’t murder any babies ‘on faith’ today just because some member of a death cult claims that God said so. "This is what the Lord Almighty says...put to death men and women, children and infants." (1 Samuel 15:2-3). So you’d murder your neighbor’s entire family, including his infant, if some man claimed that Jesus appeared to him and said you should? If it says so in a book with a talking snake, talking donkey, 900-year-old men, virgin birth and zombies, written by anonymous, biased members of a death cult, then it MUST be a reliable source?!! *SUCKER* - “a person who believes everything they are told and is therefore easy to deceive” - Cambridge Dictionary
@@l.m.892 Don't murder your gay son on ‘faith’ today, just because some anonymous cult member claimed that an INVISIBLE MAGIC SKY GENIE wants you to: "Christian father shot his son dead for being gay" - Daily Mail, 2016. Where would he get that crazy idea? "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (Lev. 20:13). If it says so in a book with a talking snake, talking donkey, 900-year-old men, virgin birth and zombies, written by anonymous, biased cult members, then it MUST be a reliable source, right?
One thing is very clear to me.
There are many ideas about many gods.
Finding a new angle is the key to success.
I do believe that Robert M Price has pointed out from peer reviewed material that the Eucharist is indeed very similar to Egyptian and Greek mystery religions, where they consume the God, as a symbol of that god being alive in them, or them alive in him.
Always remember Gilgamesh.
Audience asking good questions
Thank you for your valiant & rare insights to our culture - also a nice step up from Dr Bart Ehrman
@Daniel Eyre that's confusing! You mean Carrier appeals to teens? Doubt it. Look at it this way: language comes with mind which is uniquely human. With mind comes self recognition and forward projection. Even our thoughts are triggered seconds before they become conscious. Do you like music? 100,000 years ago we started making flutes out of bones and draw images - being creative, symbolic. Like believing in something that doesn't exist - yet - just by doing your maths. Einstein's dream of relativity opened our world to quantum mechanics & antimatter, used in PET scans for example.
Carrier's world is way too claustrophobic for me. No singing, no dancing. No wonder.
@Daniel Eyre
Here is Richard Carriers education
Badly spoken and inarticulate?
Bart and Richard agree on most points of religion, just disagree on historicity of Jesus.
Education B.A. (History), M.A. (Ancient history), M.Phil. (Ancient history), Ph.D. (Ancient history)[1]
@@bigboy9983 Judging by Daniel Eyre's comments across the internet, Carrier's work, even Ehrman's, goes way WAY above his head. He just wants the safety of his pathetic, false, copied religion.
I think you will find that 'patheon' actually refers to the whole trials, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension. It is probably best translated as metamorphisis
49:30 -- This guy's point is a good one. Consider that the "Iron Age" isn't a period of 1000 years, but something like 2000 if we include India, and notice that it took almost 1500 years for the technology to migrate westward.
Shows up in the Old Testament, too, slightly ahead of schedule.
I love how his little jokes absolutely bomb every time keep them coming. I also like how he never attacks the philosophical or spiritual aspects just the history of how religions evolve.
I love how, when presented with clear logical evidence disproving the metaphysical, believers will almost always turn to the "my delusions are good for the world" argument 👌
The philosophy of the buybull, (old and new testaments), is pathetic and better can be found elsewhere. Spiritual aspects? Such as what? A fake god spirit and a fake zombie rabbi spirit and a fake holy ghost? It's all fake why discuss nonsense in a serious lecture? Attacking the origins of the seriously daffy cult of the zombie rabbi is rather important as the entire edifice fails if the origins can be proven to have nothing whatsoever to do with a real man named Yeshua bar Yoseph being executed for our sins, (an abhorrent and immoral action which I totally reject by the way), and resurrecting himself three days later. If your fantasy death cult has no basis in reality, why would anyone follow such a crock of worthless shit?
PS. I heard people laughing, mostly at the sheer absurdity of stupid beliefs in imaginary gods and how bizarre those beliefs can be. Dr. Carrier isn't the funniest or best speaker on the subject I have ever heard, (that would be Mr. Hitchens), but he has plenty of descent little jokes at the expense of the hard of thinking theist crowd.
@@allingtonmarakan1436 pathetic? When I said philosophy I meant being a loving person love thy enemy and so forth but your right that's pathetic trash. I never said I believe in some zombie god I never even said I thought Jesus was real. You just made a bunch of assumptions like most miserable assholes do. Im not interested in religious dogma. But if it has a loving message im cool with that part. Go take your pathetic snobbish amateur intellectualism somewhere else.
@@amberhines01 Hahahahaha, as you appeared to be attacking Dr. Carrier, (IMHO), I did indeed leap to the conclusion that you were a bible-thumping zombie rabbi worshiper. Sorry if that is incorrect. Also, I find a religion that espouses loving thy neighbour and reaching out to those who are on the fringes/rejected by society to be a fine thing, ON THE SURFACE, but rather oddly, the Christ-stain religion, while supposedly promoting such a decent ideology, has caused about 1600 of wars, slaughter, torture, genocide, ethnic cleansing, bigotry, hatred and psychotic misery FOR NOTHING! If you want a decent philosophy to follow in order to be a decent person, following the psychotic, murderous god/gods of the buybull is NOT the way. Buddhism would be far better and no god required.
If you do not wish to engage in a flame war on the internet, might I suggest choosing your words more carefully and making your true position clearer at the outset. Cheers. Y'all have yourself a lovely day now, y'hear!
@@allingtonmarakan1436 oh I totally agree religion has resulted in the deaths and torture of millions the Catholic church protected kid molesters. Any organized religion no matter how great the beginnings falls fast and hard like everything humans are involved in. We inevitably will fuck up any good thing. And it becomes easy when priest and religious leaders convince people they aren't capable of doing evil things they get away with everything. I do appreciate the way you responded it's hard for us to sometimes take a step back and think maybe I went about that the wrong way. I do the same thing all the time. I applaud you and wish you well!
Hi from Texas. Great video, I wish you would share more!
yayuwah bless you Dr. Richard to discuss this , mysterious cult, and Christianity secrets
This guy missed a key phrase: “If we could just keep the questions until the end, that’d be great.”
So over chime in guy behind him,
Let the dude give his talk, geeeez
Right?!? It's like some people only talk to register their own presence and validity.
Great watch in 2023.. gotta love a slide with the heading Your Basic Mystery Cult.
Great modern teachings coming from this guy.
Important peice of video. Carrier's work will outlast anything made by theists this century.
Im an atheist that married into a Mormon family. Is there a reputable scholar that analyses the book of Mormon in this way.
I know the theology is a bit batshit but I'd like to have some kind of appreciation for it. This lecture was very insightful and i look forward to reading his books.
Have you looked up Kerry Shirts AKA The Backyard Professor? He used to be one of the top Mormon apologists and is now an atheist.
@@unicyclist97 well he's theist now mormons used to be satanust atheist with late smithan moronism 1844 but it don't matter here their satanic atheism.
That professor is christian with some more secular views.
Just amazing.
Very good. Dialectics tells us that a synthesis of views should result from fair debate. One can expand the frontiers of understanding without being offensive, etc.😎
learned alot thanks for a great program
The utter state of confusion a vastly different culture can indelibly leave on a lesser, primitive culture post contact. What's more, they are many and each god requires faithful followers, gods politics is a thing and humans lose either way, for none of them care about the lesser creatures.
I love Dr Carrier's work. I have a questions. If baptism, resurrection, eternal life, the holy trinity, the immaculate conception, heaven & hell, holy commandments, and other religious concepts are well documented in Kemetic (non-Greek Egyptian) culture, why do Bible scholars ignore this connection? Being that the Step Pyramid of Dsojer mentions NTR & the NTRU (circa 3600 bce conservatively), and Abraham father of the Hebrew religion could not have existed prior to 1800 bce, conservatively, why is the contribution of this extensively documented African theology routinely ignored? After all, Moses "...trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians (Acts 7:22).
It seems that the Hebrew culture came into existence during the time the Hyksos ruled KMT circa 1600 bce (Kemet's 15th Dynasty). Remember, Paul said he went to Arabia then Damascus were it seems to suggest he had his gospel visions (Galatians 1:17). The Persians didn't defeat the Egyptians until 525 bce. Pythagoras (circa 570-490 bce) is said to be the first Greek to bring the knowledge of the Egyptians to that nation. Greece didn't conquer Egypt until 330 bce. Rome conquered the Greco-Egyptians circa 30 bce, and the savior cult had been well established for 300 years. Paul did not come onto the scene until circa 30-50 ce.
It seems like an educational-racial bias is still in play that tried to place Hebrews (Israelites-Jews) as the first people to have a text that defines monotheistic religion, but the 10 commandments of Moses appear to come from the so-called "Negative Confessions" or "42 Declarations of Innocence" that date back to at least 2600 bce." These would have been in existence well over 1000 years before Moses was born.
@Maxx Kroes Thanks. I will. As an African American, it is frustrating, to say the least, when scholars who know African contributions to religion simply ignore them. They present speculation about the Persian thenJewish origin of religion as if it has no connection to Kemet whatsoever. This seems to be a prevalent racial bias in academia that is almost insurmountable. Biblical scholars, like Carrier, just don't seem interested in all of Biblical history that does not fit the status quo.
Thanks for responding.
@Theseustoo Astyages
Thanks. I always listen, but I stand corrected on one point. Dr Carrier does mention baptism as a part of the Osiris mystery cult. I missed that. My apologies.
I did catch the point Dr Carrier made about circumcision as being Egyptian, but that may have been more cultural, or guild related than religious. So, I don't generally count this as religious. Though it seems to be adopted as a cultural practice which points to the Egyptian origins of the Jewish faith. This is my main point since Egypt (Kemet) was the first super power in the region. They also left thousands of religious artifacts that correlate to later religious synchronisms in the area.
I suggest that the Hebrew faith originated out of the synchronism of their Egyptian origin with their new Persian (Hyksos) overlords. The evolution of Judaism came from the aftermath of the destruction and chaos caused by the Greek - Ptolemaic, Antigonid, and Selucid - dynasties. It seems that the rabbinic Jewish leaders were attempting to preserve their destroyed Egyptian and synchronized Persian religion (Torah). Then, when Rome became the super power, these Rabbi's synchronized again giving us the modified Torah and Tanakh.
Personally, I find the Jewish version of their history extremely enlightening when the real history of Egypt and Persia are factored into the narrative (in context).
The Kemetic concepts from the Am Duat (Book of Gates), for me, provides deep insights into all of the ancient mysteries.
@@brotheramfri egyptians were semitic NOT african in the sense you use it.
So your upset is ridiculous
@@sugarnads
With all due respect, you are not qualified, on any level, to ever tell me, or anyone else, what I think or know. A proper, non-biased response to the merits of my argument should be, "Amfri, what are your sources?" However, I don't want to tell you how to think. This would be hypocritical on my part. So, I will address your fallacy - that I have "an upset", with facts.
Before I do, ask yourself, 'What is a semite?" Meanwhile, if you are not biased, research my sources. At least then, you'll have the knowledge to engage academically, intellectually, and honestly with me.
A nuclear physicist (Dr Cheik Anta Diop) tested Kemetic mummies and found they were African.
UNESCO conference on "The Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the Deciphering of Meroitic Script, held in Cairo 1974, says Ancient Egyptians were Black Africans. No professional in attendance claimed ancient Egyptians were semites. Those that claimed they were white got laughed out of the room…literally. Diop & Obenga were so well prepared that the Europeans and Arabs who made this silly claim were so embarrassed, they left the conference. It's all documented in this professionals only conference. 😆
Jews never claimed ancient Egyptians were semites. Their Torah, which mentions Egypt over 200 times in Genesis & Exodus alone, never calls Egyptians semites.
Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, circa 1976, says that Africans (Ethiopians) are semites. 😆 Is this because the European Bible says Ethiopia was within the borders of the mythical Garden of Eden? Or, is it because early church fathers said that they got their 1st complete Bible from Ethiopia? Either way, a racial and intellectual bias against Black Egyptians is self-evident.
Non-Black (non-African) people cannot genetically have an African (black) child. The allegorical Noah could not have had a Black child, as religious and white supremacist biases claim. However, "Black" people can have "white" children…with blue eyes and blond hair. DNA doesn't lie.
Now, I could cite eyewitnesses like the Greek historian Herodutus and other Geeks who said that the ancient Egyptians were Black. I can cite at least 10 collegiate sources that document ancient Egyptians were Black Africans and not semites.
Get serious. Do your own research. If you will not listen, ask questions, or research, how are you qualified to engage academically, intellectually, or honestly with me?
@@brotheramfri Well said. It's good to argue with people that have reason & logic instead of without.
thank you
I'm going to buy both kindle and hard copies of all this man's books and proudly add them to my library! :)
I have kindle and audible of all of them and they are excellently excellent.
I have nowhere else to ask. Can I read PDFs I downloaded on the internet and academic articles accessed through JSTOR or academia on Kindle?
@@stevenv6463 If you still haven’t found an answer to this search how to read pdf on kindle here on youtube
@@ladyflimflam I didn't get an answer but I did get an ereader. I can read PDFs on it. This is great and so convenient. I feel dumb for not doing this earlier.
Don't forget to read them...
Ricard good program i am lerning frome all youre comments and others i am caming out the closetand i want to. my family but is to difficultwith out knowlage thankyou for your program
So the real question - in terms of the origin of “religion” and/or the growth and development of “religions” - at least to me, is: If religions influence each other, in the ancient Near East especially, where/how/why did the Innana “cult” come from? Or any of the Myths and stories from Old Sumeria?
Great question!
Now you've got me pondering it, too.
Time to do some research!
@@p.bamygdala2139 The oldest surviving religious text we have is The Epic of Gilgamesh... As far as I know.
What interested me was a saw a huge book called DEVI in the library I started looking at. It had one picture of a statue I think it was, showed Devi (mother goddess) and 2 men. One was offering her bread and one was cutting himself to let a blood offering. I couldn't help but see it was kind of a reverse communion!
The fulcrum for all beliefs is the belief that man has an eternal self, an immortal soul. You will never meet a conspiracy theorist who doesn't wholeheartedly believe that he has an immortal soul.
What if we are in a simulation, and our real self is outside that simulation? Our real self might live much longer than our simulated self.
Oh, I found it. Its perfect now.
Great! The next step should be connecting this condensate to the human psyche and its archetypes
How far have you gotten with your project?
Interesting talk, thank you
One of the epistles of John (I cant remember which) is definitely couched in the language of mystery or Gnosticism. Some thing like, "you were told what you needed to know on the day of your initiation.." or some such. References the initiation, and that some oral tradition was revealed BUT doesn't say what the mystery was.
I was raised in an OT heavy apocalypse Christian cult and well I remember all those sermons full of midrash (or presher). To hear Richard speak now, puts all those sermons into context. Mark's "parables", Paul's "mysteries", John's "needed to know", because they never actually said the what the mystery was, the modern cult leader can fill in the blank with whatever baloney they want.
Frankly it's incredible that this scam has survived for 2000 years! Incredible.
Interesting! Would not the milk/solid food terminology invoked at 41:31 imply that in early Christian practice there were two levels of initiation in place, one for the Gomers who were just there to feast and get drunk and another for the few who actually got the joke? I know this is still true for the mystery religion of Freemasonry, having met a leader (a Secret Chief) of the higher initiation at a Lodge open house some years ago. When we spoke, he quickly recognized I was someone who had access to the secrets of the higher order and talked a little too freely about the truths of Inner Freemasonry, truths that would have scandalized the unwashed nabobs before me who were marching around to, of all things, "The Teddy Bears Picnic". His sly smile showed his contempt for the ritual that was in progress, and our discussion had nothing to do with the lower hijinks, being mostly focused on goddess-worship of the preChristian era. Freemasonry is a surviving pagan mystery religion with something of the Inanna cult about it... this is what the Knights Templar encountered in Muslim Palestine during the Crusades, probably through contact with the Sufis. The world is crazier than we'd like to think! OM!
The milk/ food statement is a metaphor for a man growing in Christ.
@@crb4059 But what does that mean?
@@afwalker1921 When youre young you need easily digestable food like milk etc, when youre older you start to consume adult foods, like the way you grow in God.
@@crb4059 Thank you for your reply. I have at no point in my life been a Christian, and the language used by your cult escapes me. Not having grown up in Protestant Christianity, there are specific terms used for subjective experiences that do not seem to be open to outsiders. "Growing in God" might be one of these. For so much said by believers, I am left thinking, "This sentence, no verb." Perhaps if the savage beatings my redneck father dealt out had taken, I'd be just as incoherent as the obviously psychotic responders in this and other chatrooms who send me page after page of ecstatic drivel that means nothing to me and actually scares me, a little. I merely need some translation, that's all. Sometimes Christians talk crazy...
In Matthew 13:11 He said to his disciples...
"It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given".
So clearly, only selected people are to be given the secret information.
This shows that Christianity is not meant for everybody.
Aaah
There's also a lot of teaching about it being"the narrow path", and that few will find it!
Exactly. Are you one of those with the secret information? Serious question. Not mocking. Because I want to know that secret information so if you have it, my ears are opened to hear.
@@jaysant6958
The secret information is "OM", but don't tell anybody.
@@tedgrant2 Ohhh one of those. Okay peace.
Imagine, we are probably looking at two more generations before this research is popularly known. The Road to Eleusis is the opening widely read book on this topic, it was spawned by interest in the history of psychedelics, the communion sacrament typically got you so high you couldn’t tell exactly what was going on during the induction ritual (ancient rave culture). That’s why they call them Mystery Cults.
i always suspected that Islam emerged from some form of Judaism. the similarities in major practices between the two religions alone are just undeniable.
but with Carrier’s hypothesis about an early Jewish-Christian sect, pre-Nicean, being the precursor to Islam is just too mind-blowing to ignore.
Every interpretation is another crossroad, and the distinction that the world at large failed to perceive was between 2 opinions: the "First Adam, earthly", and the "SPIRITUAL ONE" . Paul led Western Civilization into the captivity, whether you see it or not right now or not, that has continually failed to regard the Spiritual Adam as even existing. Rome's law stated clearly, "IF ANY WANTS TO BE DECEIVED, LET HIM BE DECEIVED".
Where Carrier misses it, is how all these mystery religions are integrated into the zodiac. For instance Jesus represents Pisces and the stories follow the sun through the zodiac. We know that regarding the universe, there was no "beginning", or time related "creation", however our solar system did have a creation, and hence the focus on the Sun as the giver of life. The "Precession" is taught through these religions. There is a lot of science being taught, but disguised. So mythra sleighs the Bull, Taurus. Jesus says "I will be with you until the end of the age", the age of Pisces. Mark 14:13 "So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him.", meaning the end of Pisces and the beginning of "Aquarius". There is a LOT more teaching going on than what Carrier picks up on:) Pesher = Numerology.
Just rubbish
The Precession, sir, not procession is the proper term you're looking for describing the 24,000 year cycles.
@@deborahnorris4613 Correct, thank you:) 25,920 years in fact:)
Every christian needs to watch this and learn from it!
...would love to hear your talk wothout all the interruptions ...
Looking forward to your edit -
let me know when it's up on your channel!
Mithra slaying the bull can be interrupted as astro-theology. Mithra being a solar deity (SUN) as it passes thru the house of Zodiac it conquers each constellation, He is depicted conquering/slaying the bull thus ending the age of Taurus. It's no different when other gods/warriors (solar deity's) are depicted fighting a lion in which conquering constellation of LEO. The four beasts of old testament (read Daniel) were among the most important constellation to the ancients and mystery cults!
Yes, the 'cross of matter'
The jesus myth is an agriculturally-based celestial myth, also, with MANY gods, originally.. Jesus born to a virgin, not a human, of course.. The myth said to have been played out in the heavens, the space between the earth and moon.. Etc.. Etc.. Rewritten and adapted changed, in an attempt to make it monotheistic..Not very successfully.. All info from Carrier, previous videos on the subject..
Similar to Moses destroying the golden calf (Age of Taurus) and bringing in the ram (Age of Aries).
@@lailajameson5951 It's interesting how he has a lot of fish symbolism (Age of Pisces) and tells him 12 disciples to look for the man in the house with a water pitcher (Age of Aquarius) and that he will be with them until the end of the age (end of Pisces.)
Mystery cults, Gnosticism, and Hermeticism all sound very similar. Hermeticism is associated with the occult, Gnosticism with gnosis aka secret knowledge, and mystery cults with mystery. Hermeticism originated in Ptolemic (i.e. Greek ruled) Egypt, as well as the cult of Serapis, which later in Roman times would become the mystery cult of Isis. Having said all that, Carrier mentioned in this video the connection between agriculture/farming cults and mystery religions, which makes me wonder if there is a link to drugs/herbs. I mean, this is just speculation, but what if part of the secrets in these mystery cults is when a god "speaks to you" after hallucinating on a hallucinogenic drug/herb? Whatever the god "reveals" to you (i.e. speaks to you as hallucinations) will be "secret knowledge" because nobody else can hear and know about it since it is, afterall, a hallucination? Just a theory. Oh, and speaking of Hermeticism, it is linked to the Greek god Hermes. Hermes' equivalent in Egyptian mythology is the god Thoth, and in Mesopotamian mythology it is Enki/Ea as well as Nabu. This has me wondering if there is a link between the occult nature of Hermeticism, the god Hermes, and the gods Thoth, Enki, and Nabu. Does this mean that Hermes, Thoth, Enki, and Nabu were all associated with the occult. If so, then in the Mesopotamian myth of Inanna and Enki, when gets Enki drunk and steals the "Meh" (i.e. the Tablet of Law) from him, could this be re-interpreted from an occult pov as Inanna drugging enki with alcohol and then Enki revealing to her the "secret" Meh? Like I said earlier, Enki is the equivalent of Thoth, and Thoth is the equivalent of Moses, both of them being associated with Law. Does this mean that the story of Moses on Mount Sinai could be re-interpreted from an occult pov as "Yahweh reveals the "secret" Law/10 Commandments to Moses"? If so, then this, in turn, brings me to my study of comparative mythology and how the story of Moses receiving the Law from Yahweh on Mount Sinai is similar to King Solomon receiving wisdom from Yahweh, as well as Muhammad receiving revelations from Allah while in a cave on a mountain. Was Yahweh revealing "secret" wisdom to Solomon, and was Allah revealing "secret" revelations to Muhammad? In other words, from a gnostic pov, did Inanna, Moses, Solomon, and Muhammad all receive "gnosis"? Are the stories of Inanna, Moses, Solomon, and Muhammad all similar to Gnosticism?
Here’s a tip: if someone who claims to be a historian does not take you to the primary sources (ie inscriptions, archaeology, literature, etc.), but makes generalizing statements (ie all mystery cults were like this, they all believed this, etc.), it’s a dead giveaway that they don’t know what they’re talking about
Very interesting
This is amazing.
"God" exist as spirit in matter all over the universe; but it depends on how the spirit is defined. God is not in the physical form of an image of elephant as a Hindu god or any a human being like Buddha or Jesus.
Like Mother Nature
To Richard Carrier. In 2Maccabees chapter 12 vers 38-45 tells of rituals made in favor of all the fallen soldiers, so that they may some day resuscitate. In this talk Richard mentioned that this idea of interceding (baptism) for the dead was a novelty of the early christians. This book is not included in protestant Bibles. Most protestants understand a dead person’s salvation situation is a “done deal”.
Early christians didn't do that. And Paul condemns it it's not Protestants it's true Christians who condemn it as evil. And maccabees is not the but pray to or for the dead meaning for God to help the dead in hereafter.
Not included in Jewish Bible either because it's abominable and plus it's on historical and it's done spired by their Cannon reasonably Maccabees isn't in those errors in it too. that dead sin act was one of many errors maccabees has.
its interesting I went to a debate site between Richard and dr Craig. the comments were turned off and the blurb said this is the most bizarre opponent Craig ever had so the sponsor was obviously biased. the "debate" was on the resurrection of Jesus. Craig was pro resurrection and the idea that someone died came back days later talked to people and ascended into somewhere in the sky and also zombies walked around and the sun went dark, yet that wasn't bizarre. they should stop these "debates" all they do is legitimize religious belief as relevant and youre not changing anyones mind
Carrier is a hero of mine. Christianity has always been questionable to me.
@Daniel Eyre They're smart too. They figured it out. Christianity has all the indications of just being another mystery mythology, like many others of that primitive era. Jesus probably never existed.
@Daniel Eyre Depends upon how you define a "credible authority." You're biased. Because you're a deluded, indoctrinated fool.
@darth geekboy now that's an interesting idea!
I've been wondering for a while who Daniel Eyre is. Based on the passion behind the attacks on Carrier's personal life, and the sense of deep personal wound and betrayal, I had suspected that "Daniel" was Carrier's ex-wife or a family member or close friend of Jennifer's, someone who had a direct ax to grind.
I couldn't bring myself to conclude that it could be Ehrman himself, because this Daniel person attacks academia and the validity of the PhD system in some posts, which I wouldn't think Bart would think to do to make his case. And Daniel's vitriol and brutality don't seem to match Ehrman's style.
Plus I honestly don't think Ehrman is that internet savvy. He's 64. I'm 2 decades younger and even I struggle to keep up with all the advances in internet platforms and social media.
However, Daniel's PhD comments were in the context that the PhD was "entry level" compared to a professorship. Something an angry prof might say.
And, Daniel and Bart both share an adherence to institution and collective as authority and arbitrator of truth. And both bring the passion and heightened anxiety. So it is possible. Who knows...
This is fun! While biblical scholars do textual analysis on the bible to try and determine its authorship and motivation, here we are too doing the same on our own local "book of Daniel!"
@@utah133 the entirety of academic scholarship with few exceptions (like carrier) have concluded that jesus DID exist and he WAS crucified. This is accepted as historical fact. Just because carrier reassures your atheism, doesn't mean that his academic claim that jesus didn't exist is true. In fact, this view is soundly rejected in his field. Are you a science denier? Because the scientists in this field accept the historicity of jesus' existence and crucifixion.
@@Bostonguy222 jesus existed. But probably another conman.
Agricultural, settled, communities tend to invent a 'cthonic' underground mother earth Goddess, who is obviously under the influence of the moon, because of her monthly cycles. Life springs from the ground and returns there after death. Nomadic races, where the head of the herd is a dominant male animal, tend to invent a male boss sun sky god. The influx of nomadic Aryans with their Sun god into Hellenic Goddess territories caused the Olympian God system to be developed - originally 6 male gods and 6 female goddesses. Hera the single ancient goddess was married off, made subservient to Zeus. This was purely political to keep the peace. The ancient cthonic system went underground together with its ancient sacrament. Where one culture meets another using the same sacrament, it is natural they have a mutual recognition, even if the setting and names differ. Christianity is a Roman invention, appeasing Zoroastrians under the guise of Mithraism for Christ's birthday and Liber Pater devotees for his Easter death.
Mithraism as practiced by the Romans was particularly a cult of the Roman army. When Christianity was being codified and made a statutory religious authority in Rome it's dates and practices would naturally subsume those already established in the Mithraic cultic practices as the statutory authorities (army generals etc) were the same Mithraic dudes now avowing Christianity when Christianity became the only religion allowed. The Romans had taken their own version of Mithraism for their cult and left the Zoroastrianism to the Persians. That's how I understand it anyway 🤔
@@mushypeasplease8872 Constantine was a Serb who worshipped Sol Invictus all his life and only adopted Christianity on his deathbed in 337AD, ironically baptised by an Arian bishop, Eusebius of Nicomedia (possibly only to please his ex-Bythinian barmaid mother, Helena). The Arians did not believe or teach that Jesus was the son of God and Arians had supposedly been outvoted and outlawed by the Council of Nicaea in 325. Christianity was made the state religion 43 years after Constantine's death. The Romans were tolerant of all religions - as long as people paid their taxes they were happy. The Romans knew the futility of trying to outlaw beliefs. They greatly respected the Jews, for their piety. "Mithraism" was called both "The mysteries of Mithras” and “The mysteries of the Persians".
Very interesting comparison
54:43 sounds like James Tabor!
Interesting, I have have several Jewish friends and they have told me they were not told about heaven and hell in Judaism....
That’s what I was thinking. I was going to comment that. Pretty much like at 3:31 what does he mean that was not part of Judaism until a certain time? I thought that’s not part of Judaism even today?
I remember reading that hell wasn't originally for people. It was for the refuse or byproduct that was left when Yeaweh made the world in 7 days.
The Jesus myth is not even a clever myth. The myth of Spider Man is much better!
Because Spider Man isn't a myth. Duh!
@Woman 1z The Only God Stay with The research Considering he built devices which attach to his wrist (web shooters) that use cartridges of a chemical solution he developed (the webs) then your comment proves nothing but your own ignorance of what you are talking about.
Taken from Socretes & Dionysus.
This Dr. Carrier, young as he is, gathered his issues, knowledge and his philosophy from the writings of people who probably were wrong. I would believe him if his issues are coming from his ideas and own experiences. It is easy to contradict and throw in your own to something that everybody don't seemed to agree already. That should people to ask this guy, "so what's new?"
Life eternally actualizes infinite potential, because only Eternity can fully embrace Infinity.
Empty of ego (separateness) = Full of Life.
Being aware of being aware is beyond temporal limits.
Why hasn't RC been doing debates lately? We need some new debate videos.
@Christopher M Hansen Damn it. We finally get a really solid bible historian who does really well in debates and is a powerhouse of knowledge and it's gone all weird? How did this happen?
@Christopher M Hansen He has done some great scholarship and that threatens academics.
@Christopher M Hansen You do not have to have a degree in unicorn studies to talk about unicorns. Any historian is trained in the proper techniques to dismantle the biblical myth collection.
@Christopher M Hansen What are the top schools to learn the truth of the bible?
He has been fighting (losing ) a legal battle.. www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2019/12/richard-carrier-loses-his-lawsuit-again/
Thank you for your videos and books. Why is it that religions other than Judaism and Christianity were labeled pagan? If the two mentioned sprang from those older religions aren't they just an extension and a rearrangement of ideals?
I’ve heard Carrier refer to Judaism as pagan, as well as it being polytheistic. I’m paraphrasing here, but he has said, and I think he’s correct, that Judaism’s status as being “monotheistic,” is basically just semantics-due to the presence of other deities, such as, but not limited to: Satan, Angels, etc., etc., etc.
it is very comoon for a thief to resort to hate those from whon he has stolen yes sir pagan is hate word created by those who stole their traditions and now claim those traditions as theirs
@@annascott3542 your on the right track but you havent figure out that their so called monoteistic god was created out many gods this is clear for any one to see but you got to study beetwen the lines i will guive you two of them but you had to find the others firts check the cananite god EL them check the midianite god yawhe or you may want to check the ELOHIMS good luck
@@AngelSanchez-zp7uj yes I’m aware of the the multiple gods in the early period. It’s been a while since I made that prior comment but pretty sure I was referring to second temple period and beyond. There is solid evidence if The worship of multiple gods and Proto Judaism until the exile, possibly. It’s been shown through archaeological proof as well as scholars who reconstruct the history through textual analysis, such as Margaret Barker has some great insights into those early times. So I don’t know why I didn’t refer to that, but it’s very interesting.
I read recently it initially just meant outsider.
What's that guy doing in the background? Fascinating! 28:38
His lectures are like college classes.
I find the Thunderbolts/Dave Talbott/Ev Cochrane/Dwardu Cardona version of catastrophist origins of these mythologies compelling. I wonder how Dr. Carrier feels about them?
Semper paratus
The dude in the pink in front looks like he was forced to go. Won’t even look at RC. So rude. Carrier’s my favorite. The best atheist debater imo. Wish he would do more debates.
The dude in the pink is probably an expert on ancient mystery cults
The dude in pink is a great listener
And he is probably just absorbing some great facts
@Allington Marakan the annoying thing; There is more stuff than this one spectrum. Maybe he is not on the spectrum but has something else, maybe he has a sleeping disorder and is twitchy, maybe he ate something bad. Point is psychology is really complex and not monocausal so attributing everyone and everything to Asperger's does Asperger's and the complexity of the human psyche a disservice.
Not to mention the kid with a cap on. He was like forced to be in that discussion like you were forced to go to sunday school when you were a kid.
Okay, maybe I was being a bit harsh with my comment. Many apologies folks. Appreciate the course correction. Lol peace and love
What about Krishna in India? How similar is the Krishna myth?
Great question!
You've inspired me to do some reading about Krishna.
All the best!
I think there was probably an influence on early Christianity from Buddhism and Krishna.
Alexander the Great Greek empire included part of India and also Israel and Egypt. So I think the ideas spread east to west.
But also the Greeks already had a similar figure of Pythagoras similar to Buddha.
Pythagoras believed in reincarnation, vegetarianism, and unification with the divine.
And there is a obvious parallel between Pythagoras and Jesus in Gospel of John where some stories are the same.
To me is really to desacralize Christianity and see it and the other cults as cultural manifestation. So then "trends" "inspiration" "reusage" "appropriation" make total sence.
An interesting subjects about earlier and older religions. Inana is a woman, the oldest God among other Gods of the different cultures.
Is there an astrological explanation for why so many of these religions have similar dying and rising stories?
yes the sun traveling across the 12 constellations and arriving at its lowest point at winter solstice on december and not moving for three days wich is when he simbolicaly dies and them is born again on december 25th remenber the birthdate and them the sun is going slowly back to the western hemisfere melting the ice bringing much needed warn and rejuvenated vegetation so he is risen he is the most high he is the light of the world
Is there any videos on TH-cam where Christian theologians give valid explanations why Christianity looks very like a cut and paste job based on older religious practices/beliefs?
No. There isn't '
Yes there is.
@@jaysant6958 Of course, there is! They've had 2000yrs to come up with an explanation. Unconvincing as it is!
@@musik102 Oh, I thought you were serious.
Economist Michael Hudson has an interesting take on Christianity. He days thr lords prayer was changed by he Romans. It originally said, forgive us of our debts. They changed it to, forgive us of our sins. Basically there was a strong anti debt aspect to Christianity.
What when a single deity wants all the religions and cults in the world, perhaps with only one it prefers over others, as some sort of exercise, and because of the diversity all those religions can mean, whether to cooperate or not cooperate with each other? Take disparate personalities and combine them in an ideal way, and that cooperation may mean new pinnacles of effort and success compared to any one alone. Take disparate personalities and have them exist neutrally towards one another and not cooperate, without a protagonist or antagonist, what then? Then compare taking those same disparate personalities and have them attempt to destroy one another, what plays out?
Sounds like Scientology fits right in with the mystery cults
Wow. This guy is just great. Exposed the fraud that Christianity is.
Well he was a Christian so he has been in the Trenches...
@@wallaceshawn-zk8iw He said he never was a Christian, he was a Taoist.
When Christ says'Let the dead bury their dead ', if this is a mystery cult ,could it be referring to something like the way some Sadhus in India perform their own funeral rites , so that they are no longer part of the requirements of normal society, and their fellow Sadhus will usually deal with the corpse once they've passed on? Jesus is quoted as making several suggestions that would be fine for someone living that sort of life but be hopelessly impractical for a regular citizen....+ of course the other statements that contradict them, so either he's being all things to all people or they've spliced together several cults and people to create him? + the different number of hours he's on the Cross in the gospels, is that a Solar Deity type thing or what?
It was a very interesting lecture, thank you.
This guy looks fantastic for his age. He's 50 here. His hair doesn't even have any grey.
Yea....he's such a great guy. Knows things that no one else has ever heard of. Why not just bow down to this perfect guy.
I am very intrigued by your perspective on the emergence and practice of early Christianity. Now, I listened to a few of your videos. I discovered you today. So, it seems like you might have some glaring things that even though you're very scholarly that you might be missing from your perspective and your explanation which is the idea of the baptism and you seem to stop at John the Baptist as a Jewish source for this ritual bathing, in Judaism, it's called the mikvah. This is in archaeological finds throughout the land that is in between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan River you can see that it's a Jewish or Hebraic practice to Bathe oneself ritually and now that is prevalent throughout Cannan or Palestine or today's Israel. I don't know if the Mikvah came originally from Egypt or Mesopotamia or Cannanite cultures but the Hebraic ritual bath is probably as ancient as the Hebraic circumcision. Nowadays religious Jewish people will do a Mikvah every time you have a life cycle change before a wedding before they go to a funeral before bar mitzvah a woman will do it every month, everyday, for about 2 weeks to cleanse yourself from her monthly menstrual cycle. So not only can you see it virtually in any ancient hebraic settlement this ritual bath but you can also see it you can also see the separation between the male and the female in the Mikvah when you go to the the dung gate in the area right before you get to the Western Wall of the old Jewish temple on Mount Moriah. So this is very close to King David City's with edges called it's the city before Jerusalem which was actually built on top of another civilizations City. I can't remember if it was the Jesubites that King David spots and took over and he built on top of their City. Know who knows if King David really existed but a city was built there and it's smaller than the city that is now the old city of Jerusalem. So well before the old city of Jerusalem there was an older city of Jerusalem and on top of that next to it there was a smaller pre-Jerusalem. If you go to Israel it is it is discussed to everyone or explain to everyone that that little pre Jerusalem area was King David's shity before the temple was built. They had mikvot. I can't believe that you never talk about the Mikveh. So I'm left with the impression that you don't know about this huge part of Judaic practice.
Likewise, because you never seem to mention it, it seems you don't know about the Nazarene rite. I find this oddly missing and they're probably more things but as a Reform somewhat informed but not as a practicing had or a scholarly (just curious) Jewish person listening to you it sounds like you don't know about the practice and temporary or lifetime commitment of the group or it is kind of like a Haji in the Muslim faith if you go to Mecca you become a Haji it's like you you commit to something and then you get a title because of it or status. And this is the Nazarene wedge I don't know what to call it but it's kind of like what the Byzantine hermit monks did for a time they would isolate themselves in the in the desert and they couldn't cut their hair or their nails and they had to be like one with the elements and God and essenes were very much like this but you know when Jesus did his wandering in the desert it's speculated that he was part of the nazarenes. Samson was a Nazarene but from birth. So a parent could put a kid in this kind of strictly religious kind of obligation or you could volunteer yourself to do it as an adult an adult Jewish man. So it's I guess it's a ritual religious rite but it's not everyone who doesn't it's not an expectation. That's why when people say that he was a Nazarene and he was from Bethlehem I'm curious if he was not from Nazareth at all but they were describing the fact that he had gone to the desert and done this religious right as a Nazarene not as a Nazareth resident or citizen. I don't know if I'm the only one confused by this I don't think I am but I do I don't know if you've ever been to the land of Israel and explored the land yourself. I think you would really love it to see the remains of the synagogues the houses and the ritual baths the mick Bush and the oliv oil and grape presses. I think that you will understand things a whole lot better if you go there and you actually learn the land through your feet by hiking and your hands touch the soil.
I think maybe you should read his books and discover if he has already dealt with these topics.
The distracting guy loitering behind Carrier while he does his self-advertisements and comedy routine, enjoying a beverage... then comes guy #2, who can't close his mouth, checking his cellphone, who would rather fidget and wobble than to sit in the chair he brought....nice touch.
You sound like a Christian.
@47:09 Richard Carrier assumes churches were build in the late 2nd century or better basilica became used as a meeting place and having outgrown the house gatherings.
However Paul in Philippians 1 adresses bishops and deacons, which could be an indication already in his time the communities were that large they needed hierarchy to get organised.
Could it be that as christian indicated communities had already a longer history in Paul's time of writing than tradition assumes?
That is precisely what I am interested in but the info is scare. That thing Carrier just said, about something indicating a more organized church that could have existed at that time. Also a Brit guy named Mike Lawrence mentioned something about that in his talk on a letter to Clement. Also Augustine said that Christianity was an ancient religion before Christ. In my childhood I understood that Paul went forth after his conversion and established the churches all over. But after his convesion he had a hiatus of 11 years doing and saying nothing. So how were the churches established during these 11 years? Why didn't those people write anything down? Perhaps it was one of the many mystery cults but Christians as we know them were the first to codify it? Or maybe Atwill is right.
Hey, Gotham Atheists, wish I could call in Batman to get rid of those stupid guys interrupting and disrupting this great talk! :)