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I really appreciate this review. Post-april update was the most balanced the gun had ever been. It felt like it had a "place," which is really the goal of balancing, no? It was unique! A high-ROF HC with godlike range? Sign me up. The gun was balanced by the REALLY low aim assist, the exotic slot requirement, and the archetype. Flinch was nothing special, and you would still get outgunned by MIDAs at range unless your aim was crispy as heck. I miss that Thorn.
Pete_2014118 what's bloom I'm probably dumb for not remembering since I've been playing since year one and loved using the thorn back then but I honestly don't remember what bloom is
Basically picture a cone going from the end of the handcannon. After a certain range, your bullet will go in a random area within a circle around the point of origin once the range barrier is crossed, along with the damage falloff and AA loss. And oddly enough all weapons have it, just handcannons are the one which are most effected
The Chaperone is actually an example of the opposite effect. It really shoots like a scout rifle, but because it's classed as a shotgun it has shotgun damage falloff -- which means you can take accurate shots WAY beyond your ability to actually do any meaningful damage. I guess the "fix" would be to make handcannons behave like Chaperone.
Thorn is my main primary and personally I use perfect balance and It's beautiful, not only that it's very controlable and obviously accurized ballistics trust me try it just don't challenge too far ranges
As the first exotic I ever had in Year 1, I was glad to see it return in Year 3. Unfortunately I'm really sad because it's not even a shadow of its former self, it's more like a dim shade. The only things it's good for (the range and DoT) have been neutered so much that it's not even really an option for me. The DoT nerf was understandable, but you're gonna have to buff SOMETHING if the range is this bad. Thorn may have been too deadly in Year 1, but it doesn't deserve this.
I feel that thorn is now balanced in PvP. However I would like it if its burn was set to stack infinitely, or at least have the maximum burn stack increased to make it a real choice for end-game activities like the raid.
Thorn gets nerfed even though it's basically useless and worse than 90% of other current hand cannons, let alone worse than the scout rifles, let alone worse than the auto rifles, *let alone* the pulse rifles in our PvP meta. Also, Holtzmann, you think we should have a petition to get Hawkmoon it's own special sights the way that Thorn has it's own special sights? The way that Thorn has the two thorns to the side, Hawkmoon could have two yellow inversed feathers. I dunno. Would just be nice for the PvP and PvE exotic hand cannons to get their own nifty sight. (Except the PvP one already has it's own sight.)
In year 1 trials, if I got hit by a thorn I'd have to switch out with a teammate or run for cover. Now we just laugh about about getting tickled by green sparkles.
this was my favorite weapon in year one and im sad to see its so bad in PvP now i really hope they give it a buff to make it at least worth the exotic slot
ok i completely agree with the dot nerf, but the range nerf pisses me off. whats the point of the gun being exotic if it is outperformed by a decent legendary?
They just need to kill the ghost bullet issue. I hate that every hand cannon needs the same roll to be competitive and you can't play around with high stability or explosive round builds. The trials hand cannon could be fun if the bullets hit.
Still a shell of its former self and I'm indifferent to the new rework. Playing against this gun in year one crucible gave me super cancer aids and yet thorn alone was the reason I went flawless for trials in year one. The gun should stay as it is right now.
6:50 I was in a similar scenario during last weekend's trials. I was in a 2v1, with the opponent at half health, and it managed to miss 3 shots in a row, giving them enough time to shotgun me and kill my teammate.
I don't think hand cannon range needs to be buffed. No, actually I think it's the accuracy. Hand cannons are just too inconsistent with their accuracy, and sometimes it feels like rounds that should have hit don't, which just makes them phantom rounds.
Based on my experience, the new thorn is a bit underwhelming in PvP and PvE, it only really shines in PvP in my experience, the mark of the devourer perk helps is your target is already low on health. Its not really viable in PvE as there are better exotics and hand cannons out there. Keep in mind that i never used the original thorn as i was not fortunate enough to get it to drop in year one. The new one is i guess a way to revive the dead weapon.
Ok patrick i agree with all the problems thorn has but i used it for like 30000 in pvp im so used to it it like the easiest thing to use for me i only have probs if its wayyyy across map but the dmg is so low then its not even worth shooting
I thought it got even worse. So bad, in fact, that I willingly pulled out my Atheon's Epilogue to toy around with. Truth be told, I got 1.5+ kd in clash over ten games.
universal remote deserved to be nerfed simply because of the meta at the time. Unlimited special weapon ammo (shotgun ammo technically in this case, but you get my point) on the shotgun with the longest kill range was straight up broken when put in context with primary weapon balance of the time.
The Number1Candyman I honestly have no problems with TLW personally. It's in a very good spot compared to Y1 and can easily be outshined by quite a few primaries these days.
jack *ss, don't you also get annoyed when you get p*ssy striked? also when shotgunned?also when getting absolutely destroyed by the Iron Banner pulse or the Trials of Osiris one? dude ur dumb, its normal to get annoyed whenever you get killed by a weapon in its "zone" TLW in mid/close range, pulses in mid/long range and what not, swords in close range, machineguns at mid, you get the damn point! complaining about a weapon at its best range/"zone,it makes you look like one of those kids that cry about everything that they get killed by. who knows, you might already be one.
Viking funeral is SHIT now, that's why sunsingers are crap in crucible now, instead of burns lasting longer Viking funeral now just applies a debuff that you take 5%increased damage for a short time and it stacks up to 3 times, also firebolt got a way overnerf on itself with longer charge time when thrown and shorter range
Viking Funeral is amazing for PVE though, Sunsingers now have a role in PVE beyond the self-res crutch. Trading how obnoxious firebolt spamming Sunsingers were in PVP for some great PVE utility was a good change.
no, because it killed sunsinger viability in crucible, PLUS when you nerf an ability like that, that made a grenade really good you nerf the super because it is dependent on your abilities, your melee and grenades. Also you have to throw 3 grenades to give the max effect for only 5 seconds and during that you aren't able to shoot your gun so overall its kinda a DPS loss doing that
Steel Dragon You aren't factoring in the damage from the grenades themselves, and the 15% debuff (Which stacks with WoL and Tethers/Melting Point) applies for your entire fireteam. Sunsingers are great for DPS on bosses, this is a well established fact.
I really don't understand bungie's logic behind nerfing the range by 25%, are they really so afraid of all the pissbabies still holding a personal vendetta against thorn? If so, why haven't they done the same for shotguns, seeing as more people are probably pissed off about them than thorn
DjAirsurfer they HAVE nerfed shotguns, multiple times and they're fine for the most part. The problem is that primaries, universally, have been needed so hard over the past few years that they no longer are capable of shutting down the hyper aggressive and reckless play style that is so prevalent in the current meta.
I don't know dude, it seems like all they want us to use are pulse rifles and shotguns. I wish they'd actually balance the game instead of making one thing worse at a time. Shotguns in Destiny have the lowest range out of any major FPS title by a crazy amount, it's just that they've nerfed the effectiveness of everything else in the game down to the point where shotguns are the only guns that are somewhat consistent anymore. If you've been a shotgunner for a long time you'd realize that they can't really get much worse than they are currently. They shoot blanks maybe 5% of the time and you lose shotgun battles that should have at least been trades because some of your pellets decided to go in a random direction for no reason. Half of the gunfights in Destiny nowadays seem to be decided by RNG and connection. There's no consistency to the game, you do the same thing five times and you get five different outcomes. I know I sound like I'm just criticizing but it's because I love the game and I know it can be much better than it is right now.
DjAirsurfer That can be said about a number of other weapons as well. I have to agree to some extent, but at what point do the "nerfs" stop? The TTK is so astronomically higher than back in Y1 that if we keep going down this path, we'll end up getting to The Division levels of TTK (mild exaggeration for effect). At this point, I wouldn't be against seeing archetypes such as the Matador being removed or knocked down to the next lower archetype to force players to commit to shorter range engagements when using a shotgun. However, it's much much more than just Shotguns. Everyone is going to remember and cry about them much more because they're so prevelant, but it's a combination of super fast movement, the inability to challenge special weapons and maps that promote the style of play that Shotguns excel at.
Dennis Hopper Pulse rifles currently combine the best of both words as far as primaries go IMO. Excellent range, with an insanely fast TTK compared to scouts and are capable at just about any range. You get the accuracy of a scout and the medium to close range effectiveness of an AR. I love my Pulse rifle, but even I have to admit that it gets pretty ridiculous sometimes. The inconsistencies are very real and apparent among other weapons though, I only hope that Bungie learns from this and implements a bunch of changes for Destiny 2. I feel the current game is far too old and too far into its development that they simply cannot change it in any meaningful way to address the problems plaguing the balancing issues that exist in the game right now.
On the range part .. JUST REMOVE HAND CANNON BLOOM!!!!, also remove the bullet cone thing for single shot weapons (every weapon exept Shotguns& Fusions) Make range only dictate damage falloff.
oFiGuReZo Boolean Gemini, Bad Juju, Year 1 Thorn, Dreg's Promise (they're trying), All auto rifles, etc. They've done as much buffing as they have nerfed.
Auto Rifles need one too. Its ridiculous how much range affects autos and hand cannons, yet is barely affecting pulses and is not even an issue with scouts
José Catarino For scout rifles it makes sense but I agree for pulses. Why does a more controllable burst auto rifle have more range and significantly more damage output per magazine.
Red Handcannons need the removal of bloom and a stability nerf imo. That way there is no RNG for accuracy, and the range stat is not a massive crutch, but they still aren't too spamable
People complaining about how harsh the thorn nerf was, where the fuck are the suros and vex buffs, they were godly in year one and have been trash ever since!
in destiny 2 I'd like to see more damage over time weapons but make it a perk on the weapon that only applies to non guardian enemies. this way we can have more interesting perk options for pve without destroying pvp.
I have no problem with thorn. But in general DoT makes balancing pvp difficult. no reason to insult me. If you have a different opinion im willing to listen.
honestly i like the idea of DoT weapons in PvP even tho they're hard to balance in fact i think thorn should still dominate the crucible alongside TLW and a few other exotics, it is afterall in the destiny lore, weapons like thorn and red death are known in the destiny universe as guns made specifically to kill other guardians and the thorn was used by dredgen yor to destroy everyone in the crucible, until he eventually got rekt by TLW i know a lot of people would disagree with me but i think that exotics(especially the powerful PvP ones) should be the dominant weapons but should also be waaaaay harder to get
Spongebob Squarepants late Y1's meta was pretty much an in-game representation of the lore with thorn TLW red death and bad juju all being top tier weapons for PvP and g-horn(made from the armor of heroes to defend the city) was the PvE beast and in a game like destiny where the lore is so important but also so lacking it just gave a lot more authenticity to the lore itself with less need of explanations as it was just kinda there in your face
Blake Mccollum Bungie is worried that doing that would make it to easy to spam shots... Personally I thought that was what the stability stat was for, but....
never thought Id see the day Holtzman would be push to see thorn buffed. I know you mean range wise and not d.o.t. But still it makes me chuckle know how much you hated this gun in pvp in the past. great video!
the thing is ,remember how bungie said that they wanted exotics to be a lot better than legendry especially of their category?then why did they reduce its range?"to make it on par with legendaries"such bs
To be honest, exotics should be way better than legendaries, imo they should keep legendaries how they are but bring all the exotics to what they were in their best state, and minor tweaks to make all exotics viable, this would be the god meta
I love the shit out of this game but honestly the weapon balance team is tragic. its crazy that an entire archetype of weapon can be made almost completely useless without range perks
Auto rifles are in such a bad state... people can close the gap so fast with shotguns that they do not deal enough damage, especially against juggernaut shields.
I feel like the thorn was strong but not over powered before the rise of iron nerf, but now just feels lackluster. I think they need to revert that nerf and it will be in a good spot!
Hi Patrick. I watch your videos every now and again and also watched you when you were with planet destiny. My question to you is if hand cannons suffer so much from the range stat, wouldn't that make the First Curse hand cannon the most effective to use due to is boost in range perks, high impact and good ammo management? I'd like to hear your thoughts about this
Yeah, when you take the same amount of shots with The First Curse to kill someone as a faster firing HC like The Palindrome, the faster firing gun would win. The First Curse is still good in the sense that, if the opponent has received just about any prior damage, then a 2HKO is very realistic.
Thank you for the review! I was waiting to switch between this and my last word. I was waiting for someone with a lot of knowledge to break it down for me. Keep up the awesome content
Subbed. Just my 50 cents - thorn is not bad at all right now. If u can keep distance and some @dance@ around enemy u can kill it bcoz thorn got nice rate of fire, not like palidrome with ghost bullets at close range. Nerf unnecessary 100%, but u can use it, will try it tomorow in ToO
Memory of Silimar's main purpose was to counter Thorn's burn damage... Ha, it only does 4 damage less! And Thorn's burn damage isn't even that scary anymore!
The fact that Bungie decided to nerf the range of Thorn at all going into Rise of Iron is ridiculous. The fact that Bungie opted to nerf the range by -25 instead of simply removing Send It and replacing it with some other perk not related to range is borderline idiotic. The weapon was completely fine after the April Update and didn't need any further balancing, especially considering the fact that they decided to add the Memory of Silimar, which made the already neutered DoT even less effective. The range/consistency of the gun was the main reason people still used it. Then, after deciding to nerf it, they decide to do so by giving it a pretty major nerf to its base range, because that worked out great when they decided to hit Hawkmoon with a similar range nerf, right? But now because they did that instead of replacing Send It, you are now completely forced into using Send It (Which hurts both your handling and ammo capacity) as its absurd to choose either Snapshot or Perfect Balance following the nerf. This is one of the few cases where I legitimately have no idea what Bungie was thinking when they decided to balance the gun yet again.
"Balanced" people just say it's in a great position just because they're scared from year 1. The DoT damage needs a little buff. I'm not talking about 5 or higher, at LEAST a 4. Why make a unique weapon like thorn with a DoT perk but make it so it only tickles you for no more than 5 seconds? Honestly 2 is just nothing compared to 7, 4 seems to be perfect I believe. #makethorngreatagain or useable
Yeah, the range got hit by the nerf bat too hard. It's sad that Eysluna, Palindrome and Lingering Song outperform this EXOTIC hand cannon. I get that the range had to come down bit, maybe to keep it in line with Hawkmoon's adjustments? But with the DoT changes, range was the last thing going for it. People will argue Final Round being OP, but that is VERY situational in my option.
I don't care about the crucible much . I only play it because Bungie in all their wisdom keeps thinking of way to send me in to complete some kinda quest for a weapon . I find crucible to be fun for short bursts. When I will do PVE for hours I won't do PVP that way . If I spend a whole day running PVE I feel like I make more progress . In PVP I feel like I'm wasting time , when I could be in a raid getting armor and weapons . That said I'm always confused why Bungie ruins the PVE experience to satisfy the PVP crowd ? How many guardians play PVE vs PVP ..... We spend more time In PVE by far ..... We have to that's where the majority of the loot is Most of the missions and quests are PVE based with only a few sending us into the crucible . Sending me on a tough mission to kill wardens in one of the best strikes the game has to offer to get my exotic sword was so much fun . I had to get a team and we strategized and then we kicked a$$ . Why in the travelers name did I have to kill people in the crucible as a part of this quest line ? Makes no sense ..... Send us on Tough missions and then award us these great weapons Do you think the Gjallahorn quest would've been more fun if we were told to go into banner fall and fight in the crucible and kill 100 guardians with rockets ? I don't think so ...... That Gally quest was awesome because weren't asked to do boring stuff . I know lots of you guys love the crucible , but all that's happened from year one is that PVP players complain and then Bungie responds by nerfing every weapon that players complain about . Many times these nerfs affect PVE play ..... And not for the better . So I end up disliking PVP even more because of this . I'm a year 3 player, and I'm kinda pissed I have to grind these mission objectives to get a weapon that's a shadow of itself now compared to its year one incarnation . It's quite unfair . Thankfully some of my fave exotics aren't PVP weapons and so they are often left un-Nerfed . So the thorn ..... I only planned to use this in PVE because I bet it kills Cabal and Taken Phalanx nicely . It's u fair that PVE players like myself have to jump through so many hoops to get a weapon that's been nerf and rendered almost useless . PVP players complain about everything that kills them . Then Bungie nerfs everything . Everybody loses . Mess with PVP and leave PVE alone Bungie . I know it's too late to say this but I just had to . I only enjoy PVP in small bite sized portions . PVE play is what destiny is mostly about . "To each his own ". I guess
So it isn't just me? I seem to have a lot of shots that just don't connect, I know my aim is true but no hits.. I thought maybe it was IB lag, so I went to normal crucible, same thing.. Then Archons Forge and I had the same, when I shoot even slightly fast it just seems like half my shots don't connect. For reference I have no problem landing shots with my favorite HCs, Stolen Pride, Imago, Kumakatok, and First Curse. Just Thorn. So is there anything I'm doing wrong? Or maybe something I can do to fix this? I've tried shooting slower but I have to shoot so slow I get killed every time.. Anyway, love the video!
So um, Patrick, how long did it take you to move those vex around? lol
bout 30 minutes
Patrick Casey 😂
Wait... It got its range nerfed by 25!!! Fuck that man. That's crazy, it should get buffed by 10-15 in an upcoming patch
25%
and only the base range, so with send it it was overall a 17%~ nerf iirc
I think Hawkmoon is in desperate need of a buff too tbh
Good gameplay in the background. Your play style is fun to watch. Keep the content coming
I really appreciate this review. Post-april update was the most balanced the gun had ever been. It felt like it had a "place," which is really the goal of balancing, no? It was unique! A high-ROF HC with godlike range? Sign me up. The gun was balanced by the REALLY low aim assist, the exotic slot requirement, and the archetype. Flinch was nothing special, and you would still get outgunned by MIDAs at range unless your aim was crispy as heck. I miss that Thorn.
Agree with the needed range buff, it needs to go up back to its original stat and bloom needs to go on all handcannons
Pete_2014118 what's bloom I'm probably dumb for not remembering since I've been playing since year one and loved using the thorn back then but I honestly don't remember what bloom is
shananas it's basically where the bullet goes and how accurate the gun is I believe, however reddit can explain it a lot better than I can
Basically picture a cone going from the end of the handcannon. After a certain range, your bullet will go in a random area within a circle around the point of origin once the range barrier is crossed, along with the damage falloff and AA loss. And oddly enough all weapons have it, just handcannons are the one which are most effected
The Chaperone is actually an example of the opposite effect. It really shoots like a scout rifle, but because it's classed as a shotgun it has shotgun damage falloff -- which means you can take accurate shots WAY beyond your ability to actually do any meaningful damage.
I guess the "fix" would be to make handcannons behave like Chaperone.
Thorn is my main primary and personally I use perfect balance and It's beautiful, not only that it's very controlable and obviously accurized ballistics trust me try it just don't challenge too far ranges
As the first exotic I ever had in Year 1, I was glad to see it return in Year 3. Unfortunately I'm really sad because it's not even a shadow of its former self, it's more like a dim shade. The only things it's good for (the range and DoT) have been neutered so much that it's not even really an option for me. The DoT nerf was understandable, but you're gonna have to buff SOMETHING if the range is this bad. Thorn may have been too deadly in Year 1, but it doesn't deserve this.
Wonder how tolerable the dot on the original Viking Funeral would be with the Memory of Silimar.
first curse is my hand cannon of choice, since i play super ability heavy, and 90 aim assist largely counters the inconsistency of hand cannons
Matthew Steele first curse is a replica of thorn before being thorn
I feel that thorn is now balanced in PvP. However I would like it if its burn was set to stack infinitely, or at least have the maximum burn stack increased to make it a real choice for end-game activities like the raid.
Thorn gets nerfed even though it's basically useless and worse than 90% of other current hand cannons, let alone worse than the scout rifles, let alone worse than the auto rifles, *let alone* the pulse rifles in our PvP meta.
Also, Holtzmann, you think we should have a petition to get Hawkmoon it's own special sights the way that Thorn has it's own special sights? The way that Thorn has the two thorns to the side, Hawkmoon could have two yellow inversed feathers. I dunno. Would just be nice for the PvP and PvE exotic hand cannons to get their own nifty sight. (Except the PvP one already has it's own sight.)
I thought I'd never see the day that someone thought thorn needed a buff....
WTF! I just got thorn as soon as this video went out!
Miss 5000! :) Nice vid Pat, thanks for your hard work!
In year 1 trials, if I got hit by a thorn I'd have to switch out with a teammate or run for cover. Now we just laugh about about getting tickled by green sparkles.
this was my favorite weapon in year one and im sad to see its so bad in PvP now i really hope they give it a buff to make it at least worth the exotic slot
ok i completely agree with the dot nerf, but the range nerf pisses me off. whats the point of the gun being exotic if it is outperformed by a decent legendary?
That’s the one thing I hated about destiny 1. The exotic weapons could be replaced by legendary weapons and made exotics not useful anymore
Still love the Thorn
They just need to kill the ghost bullet issue. I hate that every hand cannon needs the same roll to be competitive and you can't play around with high stability or explosive round builds. The trials hand cannon could be fun if the bullets hit.
Never thought I would see the day when Thorn would be a PvE weapon.
Still a shell of its former self and I'm indifferent to the new rework. Playing against this gun in year one crucible gave me super cancer aids and yet thorn alone was the reason I went flawless for trials in year one. The gun should stay as it is right now.
yes bring back the old thorn
6:50 I was in a similar scenario during last weekend's trials. I was in a 2v1, with the opponent at half health, and it managed to miss 3 shots in a row, giving them enough time to shotgun me and kill my teammate.
The emphasis on range is killing the crucible
Hey man, you should make some borderlands videos, no reason other than I want to hear that smooth voice over some BL2 gameplay.
I don't think hand cannon range needs to be buffed. No, actually I think it's the accuracy. Hand cannons are just too inconsistent with their accuracy, and sometimes it feels like rounds that should have hit don't, which just makes them phantom rounds.
I'd like to see this in its original state. 6 rounds in the mag, slow reload and horrible stability, but can 2 tap to the head.
bungie doesn't think about the after effects of their nerf and buffs
I remember this gun back in year one and i hated loved and hated this gun and now in d2 i cant wait to see if its the same feeling lol
Part of me wants to laugh because I despised this damn thing in Y1 but I almost feel bad for it
did you honestly take the time to line up those goblins?
Still my go-to primary though
You know what sucks? Majority of Exotics being shittier than Legendaries
Let's be honest we just want year one crucible back
Hawkmoon review plz
If small arms is a modifier does the burn do more damage?
I got the Bounty on about the 20th Bounty I turned in. Yeah, took awhile.
liking before watching #qualityvideos
Thorn needs a small buff. Just a small one though, nothing crazy
Is the DoT buffed by Small Arms?
Based on my experience, the new thorn is a bit underwhelming in PvP and PvE, it only really shines in PvP in my experience, the mark of the devourer perk helps is your target is already low on health. Its not really viable in PvE as there are better exotics and hand cannons out there. Keep in mind that i never used the original thorn as i was not fortunate enough to get it to drop in year one. The new one is i guess a way to revive the dead weapon.
Ok patrick i agree with all the problems thorn has but i used it for like 30000 in pvp im so used to it it like the easiest thing to use for me i only have probs if its wayyyy across map but the dmg is so low then its not even worth shooting
Pls buff the range back to normal (+25%) and let it burn 3x4 ^^
No thorn should have 4 or 5, and have it bring up the range by half as it was before
is it just me or did thorn get buffed a little in the dawning? because I started doing WAY better with it
I thought it got even worse. So bad, in fact, that I willingly pulled out my Atheon's Epilogue to toy around with. Truth be told, I got 1.5+ kd in clash over ten games.
People are talking about the Thorn and i'm here thinking how the fuck did he get the Vex Goblins stand for him in a straight line LMAO
Says that burn is too powerful so he doesn't like it. Regularly uses shotguns which are some of the most powerful things in the meta. What?
I love you, Holtz :)
How to make thorn balanced and powerful , buff range .
The burn fucking blows.
Un-Nerf the Thorn burn!!!
I think the range nerf was totally unnecessary, the gun would be fine if they simply made the dot proc on headshots.
#makethorngreatagain
it's pretty shame to see a weapons like thorn last word universal been weak and not deserving the exotic slot. las word is mehh.. but still
universal remote deserved to be nerfed simply because of the meta at the time. Unlimited special weapon ammo (shotgun ammo technically in this case, but you get my point) on the shotgun with the longest kill range was straight up broken when put in context with primary weapon balance of the time.
The Number1Candyman no its not.
The Number1Candyman I honestly have no problems with TLW personally. It's in a very good spot compared to Y1 and can easily be outshined by quite a few primaries these days.
v0id19 i know ur right but now when u use universal it dose not feel like a exotic weapon. the exotic perk its now unusable
jack *ss, don't you also get annoyed when you get p*ssy striked? also when shotgunned?also when getting absolutely destroyed by the Iron Banner pulse or the Trials of Osiris one? dude ur dumb, its normal to get annoyed whenever you get killed by a weapon in its "zone" TLW in mid/close range, pulses in mid/long range and what not, swords in close range, machineguns at mid, you get the damn point! complaining about a weapon at its best range/"zone,it makes you look like one of those kids that cry about everything that they get killed by. who knows, you might already be one.
Can you please test the memory of silimar against every other DoT attack? For example sunstrike scorch viking funeral etc
Slingshot private matches are a thing, you can test it yourself
Viking funeral is SHIT now, that's why sunsingers are crap in crucible now, instead of burns lasting longer Viking funeral now just applies a debuff that you take 5%increased damage for a short time and it stacks up to 3 times, also firebolt got a way overnerf on itself with longer charge time when thrown and shorter range
Viking Funeral is amazing for PVE though, Sunsingers now have a role in PVE beyond the self-res crutch. Trading how obnoxious firebolt spamming Sunsingers were in PVP for some great PVE utility was a good change.
no, because it killed sunsinger viability in crucible, PLUS when you nerf an ability like that, that made a grenade really good you nerf the super because it is dependent on your abilities, your melee and grenades. Also you have to throw 3 grenades to give the max effect for only 5 seconds and during that you aren't able to shoot your gun so overall its kinda a DPS loss doing that
Steel Dragon You aren't factoring in the damage from the grenades themselves, and the 15% debuff (Which stacks with WoL and Tethers/Melting Point) applies for your entire fireteam. Sunsingers are great for DPS on bosses, this is a well established fact.
I really don't understand bungie's logic behind nerfing the range by 25%, are they really so afraid of all the pissbabies still holding a personal vendetta against thorn? If so, why haven't they done the same for shotguns, seeing as more people are probably pissed off about them than thorn
DjAirsurfer they HAVE nerfed shotguns, multiple times and they're fine for the most part.
The problem is that primaries, universally, have been needed so hard over the past few years that they no longer are capable of shutting down the hyper aggressive and reckless play style that is so prevalent in the current meta.
They have, but nothing has changed because they havent done anything to the root of the problem -- which is the high impact shotguns
I don't know dude, it seems like all they want us to use are pulse rifles and shotguns. I wish they'd actually balance the game instead of making one thing worse at a time. Shotguns in Destiny have the lowest range out of any major FPS title by a crazy amount, it's just that they've nerfed the effectiveness of everything else in the game down to the point where shotguns are the only guns that are somewhat consistent anymore. If you've been a shotgunner for a long time you'd realize that they can't really get much worse than they are currently. They shoot blanks maybe 5% of the time and you lose shotgun battles that should have at least been trades because some of your pellets decided to go in a random direction for no reason. Half of the gunfights in Destiny nowadays seem to be decided by RNG and connection. There's no consistency to the game, you do the same thing five times and you get five different outcomes. I know I sound like I'm just criticizing but it's because I love the game and I know it can be much better than it is right now.
DjAirsurfer That can be said about a number of other weapons as well. I have to agree to some extent, but at what point do the "nerfs" stop? The TTK is so astronomically higher than back in Y1 that if we keep going down this path, we'll end up getting to The Division levels of TTK (mild exaggeration for effect).
At this point, I wouldn't be against seeing archetypes such as the Matador being removed or knocked down to the next lower archetype to force players to commit to shorter range engagements when using a shotgun.
However, it's much much more than just Shotguns. Everyone is going to remember and cry about them much more because they're so prevelant, but it's a combination of super fast movement, the inability to challenge special weapons and maps that promote the style of play that Shotguns excel at.
Dennis Hopper Pulse rifles currently combine the best of both words as far as primaries go IMO. Excellent range, with an insanely fast TTK compared to scouts and are capable at just about any range. You get the accuracy of a scout and the medium to close range effectiveness of an AR.
I love my Pulse rifle, but even I have to admit that it gets pretty ridiculous sometimes. The inconsistencies are very real and apparent among other weapons though, I only hope that Bungie learns from this and implements a bunch of changes for Destiny 2. I feel the current game is far too old and too far into its development that they simply cannot change it in any meaningful way to address the problems plaguing the balancing issues that exist in the game right now.
Bungie just enjoys nerfing handguns. Halo 1 anyone? Or how bout Halo 2 before the magnum got nerfed?
I just can't get this fuckin bounty..........
cletus2941 Just finish all the shiro bounties and cash them all in at the same time
+Eclipse this does not increase your chances. just turn in bounties and you will eventually get it.
Patrick Casey Alright. Thanks for the clarification
nor me ffs
that doesnt make ur chances any better. i got it by turning in the first one last week.
Instead of nerfing shit just buff everything
On the range part .. JUST REMOVE HAND CANNON BLOOM!!!!, also remove the bullet cone thing for single shot weapons (every weapon exept Shotguns& Fusions) Make range only dictate damage falloff.
It's funny because shotguns have the same problem with airborne accuracy. Icarus shouldn't be a perk, I think it should just be built into every gun.
All bungie ever does is ruin guns never makes them better
oFiGuReZo well the Thorn was utter shit when it first came out... burn was weak, had six bullets, slow reload... then they super buffed it and... yea.
SuperiorNado the burn was always the same until they nerfed it .
oFiGuReZo Boolean Gemini, Bad Juju, Year 1 Thorn, Dreg's Promise (they're trying), All auto rifles, etc. They've done as much buffing as they have nerfed.
Mel when I used the very first version of Thorn back when destiny first came out the burn was only doing 2 damage per tick
SuperiorNado in pvp ? it always did 7 dmg for the burn until they nerfed it after Balance 2.0 .
handcannons in general need a range buff
Auto Rifles need one too. Its ridiculous how much range affects autos and hand cannons, yet is barely affecting pulses and is not even an issue with scouts
José Catarino For scout rifles it makes sense but I agree for pulses. Why does a more controllable burst auto rifle have more range and significantly more damage output per magazine.
Red Handcannons need the removal of bloom and a stability nerf imo. That way there is no RNG for accuracy, and the range stat is not a massive crutch, but they still aren't too spamable
+hiblast629 pulses take more burst to kill from far away
Remove the bloom and we're good, I'd be fine with keeping the same damage drop off if they just did that.
People complaining about how harsh the thorn nerf was, where the fuck are the suros and vex buffs, they were godly in year one and have been trash ever since!
in destiny 2 I'd like to see more damage over time weapons but make it a perk on the weapon that only applies to non guardian enemies. this way we can have more interesting perk options for pve without destroying pvp.
I have no problem with thorn. But in general DoT makes balancing pvp difficult. no reason to insult me. If you have a different opinion im willing to listen.
honestly i like the idea of DoT weapons in PvP even tho they're hard to balance
in fact i think thorn should still dominate the crucible alongside TLW and a few other exotics, it is afterall in the destiny lore, weapons like thorn and red death are known in the destiny universe as guns made specifically to kill other guardians and the thorn was used by dredgen yor to destroy everyone in the crucible, until he eventually got rekt by TLW
i know a lot of people would disagree with me but i think that exotics(especially the powerful PvP ones) should be the dominant weapons but should also be waaaaay harder to get
Exactly my masked friend,a bit like the thorn OR the raid gun (prime something).
+The Speaker I love how you brought the lore of how those guns were made to kill other guardians. I 100% agree with you
Spongebob Squarepants late Y1's meta was pretty much an in-game representation of the lore with thorn TLW red death and bad juju all being top tier weapons for PvP
and g-horn(made from the armor of heroes to defend the city) was the PvE beast
and in a game like destiny where the lore is so important but also so lacking it just gave a lot more authenticity to the lore itself with less need of explanations as it was just kinda there in your face
Bring back the thorn. Make it useful. I'm tired of bland weapons . Make exotic weapons feel exotic!
as much as I despised thorn in year 1 I really want to see it have its ranged pumped up to what it was before
#makethorngreatagain
Mr. Tibly Not year 1 great, but still great
Eclipse #makethorngreatagainjustnotyear1great
JD Freeman better
Let me help you out........the gun is dog shit now. You're welcome.
throwing knife game on point
Just remove bloom.... that's all this game needs. Hand cannons and autos would feel good again.
Blake Mccollum Bungie is worried that doing that would make it to easy to spam shots... Personally I thought that was what the stability stat was for, but....
JSD123 the damage falloff on hand cannons is severe enough that it wouldn't be a major problem outside of hc range
you should really try an auto rifle with persistence, it does feel a lot better
***** You want to be sniped by a Hawkmoon? Red Death? Suros Regime? No, stop whining about it.
never thought Id see the day Holtzman would be push to see thorn buffed. I know you mean range wise and not d.o.t. But still it makes me chuckle know how much you hated this gun in pvp in the past. great video!
Great review as always. Just got my Thorn bounty. One of the coolest looking weapons in Destiny and has the best lore behind it
the thing is ,remember how bungie said that they wanted exotics to be a lot better than legendry especially of their category?then why did they reduce its range?"to make it on par with legendaries"such bs
Thorn and the last word need rangefinder built-in ,and hawkmoon needs rifled barrel built in. And bloom should be removed from hand cannons.
Thorn was my absolute favorite gun. Loved everything about it. I know it needed nerfs but goddamn did it get hit hard
To be honest, exotics should be way better than legendaries, imo they should keep legendaries how they are but bring all the exotics to what they were in their best state, and minor tweaks to make all exotics viable, this would be the god meta
I love the shit out of this game but honestly the weapon balance team is tragic. its crazy that an entire archetype of weapon can be made almost completely useless without range perks
Once again, it's nice to see someone talk about the PvP AND PvE parts of a gun. Keep it up!
Should do another review of the Monte Carlo, after the weapon buffs to Med Rate autos this thing is a beast.
ill eventually re-review all the weapons. kind of want to prioritize an exotic tier list video before I get into all that though.
Auto rifles are in such a bad state... people can close the gap so fast with shotguns that they do not deal enough damage, especially against juggernaut shields.
Pre Fire, or pair your auto with a shottie or sidearm.
I used to complain about Thorn all the time, awful weapon. But there is literally an artifact made just to counter it, so stop complaining
What is it
I feel like the thorn was strong but not over powered before the rise of iron nerf, but now just feels lackluster. I think they need to revert that nerf and it will be in a good spot!
How did you get the Vex Goblins to line up and not shot you like that?
Paradox mission beginning
TheVargess It's a story mission
i like how you speak in a way that sounds like you aren't trying to sell me a used car. subbed.
Hey Patrick. You are definitely my favorite person for reviews and anything destiny really.. great work.
also range should only be damage drop off ever in any fps not just destiny the bloom is just stupid
neuter
the thorn is trash right now. ZERO reason to take up an exotic slot.
tried to use perfect balance... don't use perfect balance.
Hi Patrick. I watch your videos every now and again and also watched you when you were with planet destiny. My question to you is if hand cannons suffer so much from the range stat, wouldn't that make the First Curse hand cannon the most effective to use due to is boost in range perks, high impact and good ammo management? I'd like to hear your thoughts about this
first curse would be godly if it had a different archetype. range is king, but rate of fire matters as well.
I understand. it's one of my personal favorites. Thank you for the response.
Yeah, when you take the same amount of shots with The First Curse to kill someone as a faster firing HC like The Palindrome, the faster firing gun would win.
The First Curse is still good in the sense that, if the opponent has received just about any prior damage, then a 2HKO is very realistic.
It's just a collectors item, you can get clean up kills but most of time a legendary hc would out gun it.
Thank you for the review! I was waiting to switch between this and my last word. I was waiting for someone with a lot of knowledge to break it down for me. Keep up the awesome content
It's shit now...review over lol
Subbed. Just my 50 cents - thorn is not bad at all right now. If u can keep distance and some @dance@ around enemy u can kill it bcoz thorn got nice rate of fire, not like palidrome with ghost bullets at close range.
Nerf unnecessary 100%, but u can use it, will try it tomorow in ToO
Memory of Silimar's main purpose was to counter Thorn's burn damage...
Ha, it only does 4 damage less! And Thorn's burn damage isn't even that scary anymore!
The fact that Bungie decided to nerf the range of Thorn at all going into Rise of Iron is ridiculous. The fact that Bungie opted to nerf the range by -25 instead of simply removing Send It and replacing it with some other perk not related to range is borderline idiotic.
The weapon was completely fine after the April Update and didn't need any further balancing, especially considering the fact that they decided to add the Memory of Silimar, which made the already neutered DoT even less effective. The range/consistency of the gun was the main reason people still used it.
Then, after deciding to nerf it, they decide to do so by giving it a pretty major nerf to its base range, because that worked out great when they decided to hit Hawkmoon with a similar range nerf, right? But now because they did that instead of replacing Send It, you are now completely forced into using Send It (Which hurts both your handling and ammo capacity) as its absurd to choose either Snapshot or Perfect Balance following the nerf.
This is one of the few cases where I legitimately have no idea what Bungie was thinking when they decided to balance the gun yet again.
"Balanced" people just say it's in a great position just because they're scared from year 1. The DoT damage needs a little buff. I'm not talking about 5 or higher, at LEAST a 4. Why make a unique weapon like thorn with a DoT perk but make it so it only tickles you for no more than 5 seconds? Honestly 2 is just nothing compared to 7, 4 seems to be perfect I believe. #makethorngreatagain or useable
Yeah, the range got hit by the nerf bat too hard. It's sad that Eysluna, Palindrome and Lingering Song outperform this EXOTIC hand cannon. I get that the range had to come down bit, maybe to keep it in line with Hawkmoon's adjustments? But with the DoT changes, range was the last thing going for it. People will argue Final Round being OP, but that is VERY situational in my option.
I don't care about the crucible much . I only play it because Bungie in all their wisdom keeps thinking of way to send me in to complete some kinda quest for a weapon .
I find crucible to be fun for short bursts. When I will do PVE for hours I won't do PVP that way .
If I spend a whole day running PVE I feel like I make more progress .
In PVP I feel like I'm wasting time , when I could be in a raid getting armor and weapons .
That said I'm always confused why Bungie ruins the PVE experience to satisfy the PVP crowd ?
How many guardians play PVE vs PVP ..... We spend more time In PVE by far ..... We have to that's where the majority of the loot is
Most of the missions and quests are PVE based with only a few sending us into the crucible
. Sending me on a tough mission to kill wardens in one of the best strikes the game has to offer to get my exotic sword was so much fun . I had to get a team and we strategized and then we kicked a$$ . Why in the travelers name did I have to kill people in the crucible as a part of this quest line ? Makes no sense ..... Send us on Tough missions and then award us these great weapons
Do you think the Gjallahorn quest would've been more fun if we were told to go into banner fall and fight in the crucible and kill 100 guardians with rockets ? I don't think so ...... That Gally quest was awesome because weren't asked to do boring stuff .
I know lots of you guys love the crucible , but all that's happened from year one is that PVP players complain and then Bungie responds by nerfing every weapon that players complain about .
Many times these nerfs affect PVE play ..... And not for the better .
So I end up disliking PVP even more because of this . I'm a year 3 player, and I'm kinda pissed I have to grind these mission objectives to get a weapon that's a shadow of itself now compared to its year one incarnation .
It's quite unfair . Thankfully some of my fave exotics aren't PVP weapons and so they are often left un-Nerfed .
So the thorn ..... I only planned to use this in PVE because I bet it kills Cabal and Taken Phalanx nicely . It's u fair that PVE players like myself have to jump through so many hoops to get a weapon that's been nerf and rendered almost useless .
PVP players complain about everything that kills them . Then Bungie nerfs everything . Everybody loses .
Mess with PVP and leave PVE alone Bungie .
I know it's too late to say this but I just had to .
I only enjoy PVP in small bite sized portions . PVE play is what destiny is mostly about .
"To each his own ". I guess
So it isn't just me? I seem to have a lot of shots that just don't connect, I know my aim is true but no hits.. I thought maybe it was IB lag, so I went to normal crucible, same thing.. Then Archons Forge and I had the same, when I shoot even slightly fast it just seems like half my shots don't connect.
For reference I have no problem landing shots with my favorite HCs, Stolen Pride, Imago, Kumakatok, and First Curse. Just Thorn.
So is there anything I'm doing wrong? Or maybe something I can do to fix this? I've tried shooting slower but I have to shoot so slow I get killed every time..
Anyway, love the video!
Got the thorn bounty last night and wasn't excited I got it because of how mediocre the gun is now.