What if Carthage Replaced Rome?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2024
- Rome laid the groundwork for the European continent. What if it was defeated during the Punic Wars by Carthage? What would Carthage have done in its place? Here is one scenario.
Check out List25: • 25 Most Influential Ci...
_____________________
Facebook: / alternatehistoryhub
Twitter: / althistoryhub
Patreon: www.patreon.com/AlternateHist...
Music by Cadre Crimson (Sam Kuzel)
/ cadrecrimson
/ samkuzel
For Roma Izz. - บันเทิง
Carthage did do conquest. But instead of adding the conquered territories to their empire directly, they made them client states that would pay tribute and offer soldiers in times of war.
Which is exactly what the romans did.
Jonathan Duffield The Romans colonized their conquered territories and attempted to Romanize them. So no that's not the same thing.
+Quod Perierat Sounds like what the Persians did before the Greeks ruined them ^_^
+Jonathan Duffield The Romans did conquer many territories for themselves, and usually only established client states on their borders to act as a buffer from invaders
+Toe MailMan hannibal had planned to reform carthage so if he won he would have been elected and well everything is uncertain
Did you know:
Hannibal was so victorious in fighting Rome that his campaign through Italy killed 20% of the Roman male population over 17 years of age? It is said that a national day of mourning was declared as there was no person who did not know someone who died fighting Hannibal.
kapitalis.com/tunisie/2018/04/19/le-visage-dhannibal-reconstitue-par-loffice-allemand-de-la-police-criminelle/
German police used scientific methods to reconstruct Hannibal. This one young man made Rome tremble in fear.
@پیاده نظام خان and?
I did not know that 😮
Hannibal the goat
That was war back then, if anything Hannibal was selectively merciful to many (namely, the Roman client-states which he was trying to turn against Rome), sending such captured soldiers back without even a ransom.
With Rome, he was utterly merciless, but that was simply turning the Romans' game against them- wars at the time were rarely "all or nothing existential struggles", but it was Rome's unique cultural aspects and proto-nation-state which made the Punic wars ultimately just that.
And the second part was never made
We still waiting for a second part ='(
😭
Alvaro Nieves still waiting
Alvaro Nieves Ci! 😢😑😒 WE WANTA PARTA TWOAA !!
Me too, part two! :D
I think you overlook a lot of Carthage's potential trajectory. The Phoenicians in general built colonies that pushed upon the frontiers of the ancient world. Carthage sent explorers/ traders up the British Isles and west African coast. There are even reports that they circumnavigated Africa almost 2 millenia before Portugal and Vasco de Gama. The city was built on a very impressive natural harbor which contributed to Carthage's wealth and protected by it's impressive navy. They built colonies all over and to say that they were a mercenary army that didn't conquer isn't true. The Carthaginians fought many wars on the Iberian peninsula while colonizing the area to take advantage of it's vast mineral wealth. Present day Cadiz was once the Carthaginian colony of Gadez and Hannibal Barca was born in present day Spain. He learned warfare fighting the Celtic tribes of the Iberian peninsula and was one of the greatest generals of all time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Carthage and Rome switched like in this hypothetical scenario, I have every reason to believe they would have pushed the limits of trade, exploration, and Phoenician colonialism in the ancient world. There are so many possibilities is hard to even make a cohesive theory. Would they have reached the Americas? Where would they focus on colonizing? Northern Europe? West Africa? The entire African continent? The world might have truly become interconnected by a Carthaginian trade network. Just because Carthage wouldn't rise the way Rome rose doesn't mean it wouldn't have risen.
Pete well said.
That's exactly what i was hoping to watch on this video after years and years of Carthage being underrated. still, people surprise me how little they know and how small their researching efforts are when it comes to the Carthaginian Empire.
pete you are mostly right.... they probably would have interconnected the world more and most likely west Africa would have grown faster at similar pace to the rest of the world because of interchange of knowledge and culture seeing how smart groups like the Nigerians are but they might not have discovered the Americas that early except by pure chance because going that far out to sea needed celestial navigation that was discovered just about 500ish years ago during renaissance (i am a navigator by profession so i know).... but yes the Carthaginian are truly amazing.... and might have defeated the romans if not for certain advantages
@@xyz8111 you are wrong. The bible describes long before the Romans that the Canaanites, Phoenicians sacrified babies/Children for Baal. The Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians and believed also in Baal. Just because the Phoenicians/Carthaginians had a great civilisation and achievements doesn't mean they didn't have a dark side and bad tratiditions.
@@opeyemiojutiku1264 If Rome had penetrated interior Africa many African Countries would have Greco-Roman culture too and would be more connected with other nations.
Carthage almost won the second punic war but Hannibal did not get enough support from the Carthaginian council of elders to actually capture rome
They send him 40 thousand soldier leaded by his brother husderbal but they were ambushed by the Romans in the Alps... so that's something.
@@radmetal747 they didn't his brother came and formed his own army to support his brother.
They couldn't have. If they had sent an army by ship, they risked being intercepted by the superior Roman navy. The army could have been destroyed, leaving Carthage defenseless.
Poor hannibal
In fact Hannibal had Rome in his hands but he was a gentleman so he said to the romans « I let you but be gentle »
We all know how the romans reacted...
What if I had been working on my PhD instead of being on TH-cam?
What if there had been a TH-cam when I was (supposed to be) working on my PhD -- LOL!
You and me both. Gaaaaah.
Legend27 Koké Why, thank you! That is extremely nice of you!
I only made it to a Bachelor's...
What if I wasn't squandering my PhD by watching TH-cam instead of actually writing.
Carthage actually had plans to take over Spain and expand was and west along the Mediterranean coast, basically making an African trade empire instead of a militaristic European empire.
East and west*
Awesomenesz Smash
carthage west if not carthage exist no alphabet in europe
???
Awesomenesz Smash North Africa and Europa were back then not that different
we still aren't diffrent the only barrier between us is religion and ofc a long history of wars
You wasted 2/3 of your vid to well known facts, this was good introductory vid, but incredibly shallow, there are VOLUMES more to speak about on the subject. What about governing model, economical differences, art and literature, alphabet, morality, ethical values? Carthaginians were very different people society then romans, world today would be very different place if carthage won the punic wars.
Yea how dare you not cater to my personal needs and include everything I care for in a short educational video that needs to be also entertaining. How dare you AlternateHistorHub! You should think about me more since the things I want to know and care for are the best ones. /s
+jonnenne lol gj
I think it was a pretty valid critique.
I doubt AlternateHistoryHub (whoever makes these) would look at this comment and think "fuck this guy".
Taking criticism is the only way to improve.
I don't think it is valid criticism. In essence the criticism called for things that would make the video at least 20 min long which would make it more difficult to keep them entertaining for the average youtube viewer. Hardly an improvement.
But he prefers making vids as short as possible. Hence the over-generalization.
What if the Tokugawa Shogunate won the civil war.
What if the Turks never conquered Constantinople.
What if Constantine never converted to Christianity.
+Connor Dunn The third is easy: Western culture wouldn't have beem so fucked in the ass.
KamenMasked Yeah, and we would have a headstart in gender equality. And little to no homophobia.
third one I can answer
we would be smarter and have better tech
Crusades much
+Connor Dunn He briefly answers the third one in his video "What If Christianity Never Existed?".
What if Harald Hardrada (The Norwegian King) won the Norman Conquest of England instead of William the Conqueror?
Nice idea! They could also do if Harold had stayed on top of the hill in the Battle of Hastings/won the battle?
Yeah that would have changed the entire outlook of modern day times. The English language would be more Germanic and maybe the Nordic countries could have been more relavent.
Could also add in what if the Saxons had lost at Stamford bridge.
+Orange Citrus Nothing for Norway really, Denmark conquered England too, but eventually the English resumed their control. However, without Norman influence, GB would more oriented towards Scandinavia than France.
Portgas D. Itachi Sorry if I posed the question wrong, just some American scrub who's english teacher was talking about it.
Dido vs Augustus Caesar. Hopefully Gandhi doesn't nuke 'em
Why can't I like comments on mobile D:
+FinndianaJones you can, just tap the comment and tap like
You can't. Unless you're using a browser app you can't like on the youtube app, neither edit your comments.
u can like on IOS but not on android
DerGyrosPitaFan Now you can, but TH-cam changed the set up of the comments so much now, it looks so weird.
They weren't barbarians that's just what the Romans called them they had their own civilization Rome wasn't all that was civilization at the time
Actually, there were only few civilizations at the time (carthage, china, egypt…) and barbarians like Gaulish were only a bunch of people without any strict government, tax system and military system.
This was done in collaboration with my friends at List25! Check out their video about the '25 Most Influential Cities That Shaped Our World"
th-cam.com/video/DzdC6EX6WSs/w-d-xo.html
Hey Cody!
+AlternateHistoryHub What if India wasn't colonized please do this one I've been searching everywhere for this awnser and found nothing
+AlternateHistoryHub "palestine"? that didn't exist. You are confusing with "Syria Palaestina""
+AlternateHistoryHub I'll just drop this here: royalpsycho.deviantart.com/art/Hannibal-s-Triumph-540982224
What if The Chernobyl disaster never happened? That would be a good video :D
Half-Life 3 might release earlier than Part 2 of this.
who would have thought this would have come true
Bannerlord too...
Carthage is so underrated. proud to be Carthaginian and Mediterranean.
Now it's just...
@@tahersaidane9594 ruined
@@jjam2591 doomed forever
ThePunisher014 You’re not
ThePunisher014 You’re arabic & berber
Your videos are gold, I honestly wouldn't mind if they were like an hour or two even longer, with even deeper analysis and more probable scenarios. I am always captivated by your work and it always ends too soon!
You hear that brits? You guys are BARBARIANS!! Lol
+jefferson steelflex wish it had stayed that way tbh would be lovely :')
***** whatever you say conan XD
+David Hicks this, so much this.
+jefferson steelflex America at this time was in the stone age. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones ...
+jefferson steelflex Everyone who was not Roman was a barbarian. Barbarian was the roman word for "not us"
Dear Alternate History Hub,
I really wanted to thank you for all the information you've provided over the past few years. I've been with you guys from 5k subs and to see you have ballooned to 300k is quite amazing. But you guys actually deserve it. The quality of your videos has improved so much, and if you keep at it, I'm sure you can get to a million. Keep up the great work guys!
JUST LOVE THIS CHANNEL!!! Discovered it yesterday and have binged on it non-stop ever since then. This is awesome in so many geeky levels. Keep it going!
What if only Intellectuals were allowed to comment on TH-cam videos?
Everybody can dream
+Dimitryi Carlio'n The internet would not be filled with cats, unfortunatley. D:
+Dimitryi Carlio'n
Intellectuals, you say?
My scouts from around the internet say that it is a rare occasion that anybody who uses words such as "thinker", "skeptic", "scholar", etc. in their username has ever contributed anything worthwhile to any sort of internet discussion. How then could we possibly identify intellectuals fit for commenting on this oh so sacred forum? The intellectual words are most commonly self applied to complete morons!
+Dimitryi Carlio'n None of us would be here.
+Dimitryi Carlio'n February 1 2016 sees Google announce a change in the use of the TH-cam comment section. Every user is blocked from commenting and is required to complete an IQ test to unlock commenting on TH-cam. Only users with an IQ of over 130 are allowed to comment on videos. Thanks to Google's searching monopoly the outrage from users stays under the radar, meaning the policy is implemented without any major problems.
Unfortunately disallowing commenting for people with (slightly above) average or below average intelligence does not solve the issue of trolling, badposting and arguments due to being an intellectual not meaning you're a decent human being.
Three months after implementing their measures to increase comment quality Google switches back to their former system. Use of TH-cam has dropped to below 10% of what it originally was with most professional TH-camrs switching to other websites where they can engage with their full audience. Halfway through 2018 Google quietly takes down the TH-cam servers.
For anyone interested in learning more about Hannibal, Extra Credits did a great series on the Second Punic War in their series "Extra History".
Omg I commented this idea!
congrats
+Dalto Gaming Thanks Dalto!
A very good idea.
I like to believe that our world would be a bit more peaceful if Carthage'd have won against Rome... :-)
+Rumburak so do i
I also did :)
+Rumburak Africa would be more developed as well, but Europe wouldn't have the roman inspired advances.
This is the perfect channel for me. :D
I wish especially this alternate timeline would be continued by you.
Another sensational video from the people at AltHisHub.
The way you clearly and concisely summarise so much detail and still find historical accuracy for the laymen in the video is astounding, super impressed.
As a History scholar focusing on early Roman history (an hons grad) The Punic Wars are still the most underrated and overlooked period of not just Roman but ancient History. It was a completely formative hundred years that CREATED not just Rome but as you said it the entire mediterranean / European world for the next 1000 years.
Carthage was a sophisticated society, culturally, socially and economically Rome's superior in every way with a socio and cultural legacy to rival that of the Greeks. In many ways its subjugation to Rome created a staining of its legacy and name for the next a hundred or so years, similar in the way we now demonise the Germany and Axis after the first World Wars, (Not pardoning Hitler / much of NAZI war crimes that shit is horrible) or the demonisation of Persia and Xerxes / Darius despite it too being a similarly brilliant and amazing civ.
Its hard to say what drastic changes would have occurred had the Roman Empire never come to fruition. Also considering much of what we know about Carthage and its "Empire" (It was an Empire after all) is now tainted or lost. But it is in my opinion if Carthage was never defeated and destroyed then Carthage's influence over the mediterranean would be a kind of compromise in the middle between Rome and Greece's eventual influences and imprint on the West.
Firstly while I concede that the point you made about Christianity and the West is an accurate one, I think it is inaccurate that you focused on this as the major impact from the loss of Rome and victory of Carthage as the legitimisation of Christianity in the Roman Empire happened roughly between 310 AD - 330AD (Constantine + Council of Nicaea) whilst the Punic Wars happened roughly between 276 - 386 BC, roughly 1000 years BEFORE this event. There are so many variables if, when or but Rome or Carthage was victorious... and frankly there are many ways that Christianity could never have existed or many ways Rome could have not legitimised Christianity even IF or WHEN Carthage was victorious. In my opinion the two events (Rome's victory over Carthage and Rome's legitimisation of christianity) are only connected by the fact that its Rome (Rome in this space and time had changed drastically from fledging republic to world spanning Empire).
Rather then, I'd like to focus on your secondary point the formation of the Western Identity which I feel is your most valid point and definitely a possibility. IF we say Carthage defeated ROme in the Second Punic War then by this time both Rome and Carthage would have been almost equals in the mediterranean. Carthage and Rome had both shown militaristic and economic expansion throughout mediterranean. We forget that Carthage had Phonetician and Greek colonies on Sicily, had colonies in Spain, and diplomatic / territorial ties in Nubia. It is my belief that even though Rome was militaristic, aggressive and expansionist and Carthage was not, they were economic and navally expansionist and similar to Greco-Phonecian heritage previously would have connected the mediterranean and Africa with stronger naval / maritime colonies and expanded in this way. Therefore even though the mediterranean and Rome was unified under domination by Rome, it so too would be unified under culture and economics. It is definitely believable that Carthage would still maintain strong links to Greece and that with Rome neutered they would continue a strong stranglehold over the mediterranean through their unified Greco-Phonecian culture. Rome I believe would not be destroyed like Rome had done to Carthage but instead would have its land and power stripped. I feel Rome would eventually having been humbled by Carthage paid its debts and form bonds with Carthage. The Italian peninsula would become more Greek and sectioned out like the Greek states and Rome would still be a powerful city-state but nothing more.
Its my opinion that the only thing that would change is cultural homogeny. We'd now be talking about Greco-Phonecian culture and have a vastly different alphabet (no Latin = no French / English / SPanish / Latin alphabet) and religious / cultural identity. Carthage already had sophisticated polytheistic Gods which mirrored the Greco-mesopotamian models. Bal, Tiamat etc were not just carbon copies as Jupiter, Mars and Juno were but instead fully realised and sophisticated alternatives. The Greco-Phoenician culture, writing etc would surplant Rome and I think we'd have a faster cultural renaissance (Rome's literary Renaissance where they emulated Greek writers wasn't for 600 years after their defeat of Carthage and happened around the height of the republic / early Empire). Without Rome's tall poppy mentality and political / senatorial elitism and rivalry, Carthage would be able to make massive developments economically, culturally and socially. However the developments of democracy would have taken a hit and largely we would not see democracy as it is today, Carthage from what we can tell was an unabashed oligarchy.
But the promised of a more unified and egalitarian Mediterranean culture has me salivating. The idea is that political and economic power would have been more equally shared across the Mediterranean with the possibility of Greece reviving its power (Remember Rome destroyed Greece) under the mantle of its cultural and ethnic ally Carthage. You can also imagine large Middle-East and Levant powers emerging and diversifying their own cultural make-up and early Spain becoming a second Carthage. Rather than Roman's dominating, adopting and supplanting indigeous cultures and beliefs, we could have seen a richer, more diverse ancient period with power and culture shared between Greece, Carthage, Middle East to create a secondary classical period. At the expense of course of modern democracy, english / latin / modern Euro languages and Christianity. But hey maybe the hybridised Phoenician / Greek language and religions would be superior? And maybe elements of democracy could have been worked on by Greeks / Carthaginians in better detail?
What if France won the war against the likes of England, Prussia and Russia in the 1700's?
What if India wasn't colonised?
What if Australia wasn't colonised?
+Jay McMullin he already has the uastralia one
+Jay McMullin I think he already did australia
I haven't seen the one on Australia.
*England lets face it we Scots, Welsh and Irishmen had next to no power as did the rest of the colonies so it is England :).
Please do, What if the Great Irish Famine Never Happened?
+Colic Shark Hi, Or if the English hadn't reneged on their promise to give corn to the starving Irish that cleared the way for english settlers in Ireland? Thanks.
+Colic Shark
If the Great Irish Famine never happened then the Irish minority in America would remain small due to less emigration from the island. Halloween, with its Celtic roots tracing back to Ireland, wouldn't be as celebrated and Americans would be celebrating El Dia De La Muertos instead. Not to mention the ancestors of the political Kennedy family would remain in Ireland and someone else would be struck by an assassin's bullet while visiting Dallas in 1963.
+NikolaiNochnoiTV03 Hi, And no "Lucky Charms" either:( :) Thanks.
***** there's a lot more outcomes than the American Immigration
Ireland would be over populated and dosent get independence for a couple of years after 1922 but they have a better arm5
If Carthage won, America would not have a "senate".
Well they probably would but it would have a different name. Carthage like Rome was a republic. Going by Polybius the people of Carthage held more power in there government than the people of Rome by the time of the Punic wars. They both also had a constitution
Would the US exist?
That is extremely unlikely, since such a drastic change in history, would not only change culture and religion, but also change completely how the entire history of the world would happen. The US would most likely not exist, and neither would any other modern countries except maybe Greece, Egypt, Persia and Tunisia (Carthage).
+theLundLs That is true. I wont in the future!
William Graeser Thanks for that, but what you said was kind of my point.
Thanks for uploading this.
What if Albert Einstein fled to Russia not America?
Interesting, this seems VERY unlikely though. Although I recon Cody can spin something up.
Yeah, but in this scenario Einstein is Communist.
It would make more sense.
+Theo Heddlesten
Then Einstein would've convinced the Soviet government to build the atom bomb first before the Americans do.
He would of been executed. The Russians killed the scientists and took the research when they took Berlin. America had the scientists fleeing from the Russians
I got one for ya, What if the Virgina/New Jersey Plan (your pick) was what replaced the AoC?
+LuminaryPrism75 Ooh, nice one. I support this!
Starmute VII Thanks!
me too nice idea
+LuminaryPrism75 what is that? tell me pls (I'm not american)
+BricklordLP which one do you need to know?
reed more about Hannibal!!
that men was a genius !!
@پیاده نظام خان he made a fatel mistake
we'd all be riding elahpanets like bad asses
Though I hugely admire Hannibal, this actually made me appreciate the Roman Empire.
+Batman Jr. Yes as a person that hugely admire Hannibal and the Carthaginian Empire in General, I really was glad that Rome won the Punic wars because of this
+Aerunn Allado Yeah. I've been waiting for a video like this to come out for a long time, in really interested in Carthage and more so the Barca dynasty.
Aeurunn, byzantines News: Théodora, do something!
theherobrine Jesus Christ even here
I'm not sure I would want to live in the world where Carthage won, but I can say I'd love to see it. Trade based/ Thaloassocratic empires, such as Carthage, they just seem to go against everything a normal empire is about.
I only find nomadic empires more interesting (I heart Attila), in which very society is questioned
What if Spain never destroyed the Mayans and Atztecs. O_0
+Jay Mex I would love to see this :)
Oh!!!Oh!!!Oooohhhh!!!*inserts MLG horn,rainbow colours,Snoop Dogg smoking weed,Illuminati signs,Doritos,Mountain Dew & everything upside down*
+Jay Mex
America would be a 3rd world shithole.
Alleyup1994CSA Yeah, but it would be fun to see. :)
No what if the Aztecs discovered Europe-Asia-Africa?
I think you are doing a great job, and considering this deeply in regards to identity and impact. Thank you.
Cody, why do you made your videos so short? Would love them to be longer. Seriously can't get enough of your content.
Even stronger Celtic and Persian cultural influences, unpredictable political development, technologies going faster by up to 500 years...
Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. Also, slavery would have been abolished a long time ago. The Persians had already abolished slavery back then and their culture was spreading. Also the so called "barbarian" celts and Germans of that time were actually friendly and in good terms with the eastern countries in that era. I can see them slowly gaining their own advancements through influence from the east.
Then with those good relations they would have stood a better chance against the huns together and later maybe even the Mongols. Not to mention neither Christianity nor Islam would have existed today. Honestly, I believe the world would have been a better place if the Romans had lost.
Wait the celts destroyed technologies and developments?
Russel Crowe Hearing and seeing things in your imagination Russell? Lay off the drugs and alcohol. No one said that.
+Night Dark i'm sorry i'm not well right now. Help me get home please.
Valerious Catastros I commend you for your imagination but there are some factual errors in there mate. First off, there was no Jesus, the very existence of Jesus is still contested. And even if let's say Jesus had existed, why do you presume the Persians would adopt Christianity. The Persians had their zoroastrianism and they were very content with it. It was one of the most open-minded belief systems that ever existed. Also the Persians allowed freedom of religion so Jesus would have never been crucified and resurrected. Instead he would just be some dude going on about his business and leading a cult, if he even had managed to recruit anyone willing to be Christian instead of zoroastrian. You see, zoroastrianism was even spreading to Rome and people there seemed fond of it and started copying it.
Now another thing is that Christianity really took hold during 400 bc and emperor Constantine had a very big role in it becoming the main religion of Rome. Before that Christianity was some little sect no one cared about. They needed a new religion that would unify them, so they took Christianity (because the emperor was brainwashed by a priest) and then later added stuff to it from other religions Zoroastrianism and Egyptian religions) and just made up stuff as they went along themselves. The "Arabs" became Christians and then later Muhammed came along and changed its name to Islam and added his own ideas, and well, I think you know the rest from there.
Damnit, now im feeling like to sink another hundred hours on civilization 5 to play as Carthage against rome on the max difficulty.
this channel is awesome the vids are awesome theories are awesome
OH MY GOSH I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR SO LONG FOR YOU TO MAKE THIS
I don't think he mentions it in the video, but to anyone wondering, Hannibal was recalled to Carthage to defend it when the Romans led by Scipio Africanus invaded from Sicily. I just wanted to share the Scipio bit of information.
+Arkardor B. But during that time a "peace" have been established and it's when the peace has been broken by Carthage that Scipio Africanus was sent by the Senate with legions to attack Carthage
Do you still plan on making a video on an Ethiopian Empire?
Its too hard to forecast because its SO far back in time. The only thing that can be predicted is that Carthage would control the entire Mediterranean coastline. Everything else is open for debate. The Carthaginians were not Western. Greece and Rome gave birth to Western Civilization. (Western Christian Civilization to be exact which was just renamed Western Civilization when it became secular.) Even Eastern Orthodox Civilization would not exist either. Islam would not happen. Even the fate of Jewish Civilization might not survive to even spawn Christianity and Islam. And Carthage could collapse just as Rome did after several hundred years. Because no empire lasts longer than a few centuries. The world would be unrecognizable by the time we reach 2015.
+ShadesMP5 America will defeat that rule!
Well if carthage won than Punic would be western because they would be the west, the whole west. Though yeah your right our western wouldn't exist because rome and greece made it and well rome really wouldn't be a thing in this situation
First off Carthage was a Phonecian colony. They were Arabic. And Rome was a Greek Colony. Anything Carthage would spawn would be middle eastern in nature and not carry the Democratic/Western values of Greece to the next generation. This might as well be what if Greece lost to persia. Democracy and Western thought would have been killed in the cradle. The same can be said if Rome lost to Carthage. Western ideas of Individualism, Democracy, Law, etc would never happen. Just read some Clash of Civilizations by Sammuel Huntington and Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. And you will understand what civilization is and why Western Civilization became dominant.
The Carthaginians were aggressive and would have filled the vacuum Rome had in the Mediterranean. They would not move much beyond the Mediterranean. They would have put together a permanent military at some point. They would still use mercenaries on top of that. Carthage would be obsessed with controlling the Mediterranean sea and every port that touched it. Carthage would have taken Judea because they were weaker than Rome and would have interfered with whatever colony or port they had in the region. And Revenge would also be enough for them to conquer or wipe out Judea.
They would never adopted Greco-Roman principles that are the foundation of the west. Western thought would never survive to present day. Language would evolve in a whole other direction because Latin and Roman characters are crucial to all European languages. So European culture in general would have never happened. The whole world would be SO dramatically different and unrecognizable that nothing but Carthage's spawn would survive in Europe. The Americas, Asia, and lower Africa would remain untouched by colonization.
Like I said the only thing that can be forecast is that they would control the Mediterranean. Everything else is debatable because its SO far back in time. The world would be SO unrecognizable by the time we reach 2015 it might as well be a alien world.
+ShadesMP5
I must correct one thing. Rome was not a Greek colony but rather an indigenous tribe "conquered" by the Etruscans (which were not Greek) and which later rebelled against this domination, but only after taking and learning anything it could.
That said, Rome did adopt and transmit Greek ideas after conquering Greece, and that probably would have been one of the great differences. Although an economic power, the Carthaginians were not militaristic and would probably not do a lot of conquering, they certainly would not be able to hold what Greek cities they could manage to conquer (if they bothered at all). That does lend credibility to the theory that Greek ideas would not spread.
Plus, the Carthaginian "Empire" would probably also last much less, since it was so fragmented. Other similar empires, such as the Athenian, eventually collapsed in a matter of decades. This would open up the doors for the populations from Northern Europe to come down and colonize certain areas, IF they even bothered. Celt and German Tribes mostly, as the video stated... did their thing, which was fight against each other and sometimes come down to pillage. But never would conquer and never did show an inkling to create empires.
The only other power that might have eventually taken over Europe, was the Persian Empire. It was the only power that actually managed to consistently resist the Romans and a major pain for them throughout their history, extending it also to the Byzantines. Taking away Rome, if the Persians managed to overcome their fear of the Greeks and what they did to Xerxes, they might have tried a push again.
Finally, I doubt that technology would not have developed, maybe it would have developed even more on a theoretical level, since conflict and other catalysts were still ever-present and a free Greek philosophy would have continued exploring the universe and maybe even found the way to build instruments to do it better.
Nice second part part my dude
Please make a part two to this video
What if the French Revolution never happened
+Rick James It's unlikely it wouldn't have, but that would be a great scenario.
Xor'Kov It is unlikely but if it failed then Napoleon wouldn't have ruled France
Rick James And the first world war probably wouldn't have such reference point for a major war that happened previously. If it happened at all.
+Rick James The ideals of democracy and freedom would not have traveled across Europe at the speed at which it did in our timeline
The French Revolution represented nothing of freedom, liberty or democracy. It was just started by power hungry clergy, lawyers and aristocrats.
Could you do a video of what if the Saxons had won the Battle of Hastings against the Norman invasion?
i love this channel bc it shows how many people actually understand history as well as he channel itself being keen on fact based fiction. shits awesome!!!
Hahaha i was waiting for this one. freaking awesome
Nice video!!! I'm actually really glad the Romans won :) though sad for the loss of Carthage.
Your channel is awsome
+list25 You're glad the roman's "won"? You know that's a silly thing to say because for all you know you'd enjoy it much more had Carthage "won" and you could then go around humping women and hunting highland cattle.
+flyhighpizzapie Pretty sure most of us wouldn't exist due to ethnic groups remaining split through most of Europe and other major events not happening :P
if Carthage won, your PC would be covered with nice runes, and ALL of science would be more advanced, because the church wouldn't have killed all the brilliant scientists they killed.
mateo rivera You're assuming technology and culture would have followed the same path. The truth is our science and existence is a biproduct of Roman success.
Could you do a video about : What if republic of China (Nationalist) was in power instead of the Peoples republic of China (communist) ?
+Bojan T. The people would like it better probably...
+Bojan T. The Republic of China was in power 1912-1949. They were still recognized as the legitimate government of China for many years and was a permanent member of the UN Security Council even though they only ruled Taiwan.
what he means is still in power i assume
China would have been a crappy country such as India probably!
Toe MailMan no.
Great job
I just randomly found this channel is very very interesting
I'm wondering if the Scandinavian/Norse religion might have become the dominant religion of Western Europe if this game to pass. Then again it's a bit up in the air seeing as Nordic raiding only really happened in the late middle ages when Christianity was the central religion (at least to my knowledge), but who knows? They might've started raiding earlier.
If Rome was defeated, the Hellenistic kingdoms would still fight to a conclusion, with the syrian wars ending in a seleucid victory ( as there was no Roman diplomat to draw a circle around the seleucid leader). If a unified Hellenistic society emerged, it may have continued Alexander's legacy, which was to conquer Carthage. End result being, Greek influence throughout Europe, which would mean a continuation of the philosophical tradition uninterrupted, ie no dark ages, at least as we know them. ...that sounds better than our history
This topic deserve an indepth video from you like a revamp from 6 years ago
I enjoyed this, thanks
Without a strong centralized empire such as Rome, there would correspondingly be less of a power vacuum after the Carthaginian Empire inevitably fell. When the eastern Roman Empire fell it left a huge power vacuum we call the Dark Ages, which were in effect a time of declining technologies, literacy and infrastructure. Without such a strong societal foundation in the first place would society have as far to fall?
+Robert Weston Western
Crater (ahem) the western.
"Dark ages" is a misnomer. Society only declined in Northern Europe. The east empire and the soon to be Muslim empire flourished at this time.
@@arathaemaxus5250The reason they flourished is because many Kemetic people were forced into Islam teachings that were passed down to the Greeks were stolen by the Muslim invaders.
How does this video assume Christianity wouldn't take hold in Carthage much less continue to spread? Certainly it would spread differently but before Rome "legitimized" it, it was legitimate among the people. That's what led Rome to adopting it, so I submit that Christianity still would've spread. Most likely, Carthage would've been the conduit instead of Rome.
PART TWO
NOW
I DEMAND IT
awesome track at the end there , was caught off guard
5:00 Also, the Romans were the only civilization that regularly crucified people.
Actually they got that from Numida (Carthage's neighboring desert kingdom)
Numidia wasn't/isn't all a desert, the desert is only in the south, there are huge forests and mountains in the north which are actually snowy in the winter.
Well didn't know that thanks for more info
ya ever heard of the Aztec Empire bud? If you think Rome was bad...
Well yeah crucifixion was a popular punishment in the world in that time period
More children sacrificed to Baal maybe?
+Remicas There is reason to believe that the reputation of Carthage was smeared by the Romans in this and other ways. It is not as if Romans did not sacrifice people, that was the origin of the gladiatorial games. The originals were usually to the death, so that the blood would honor the deceased for whose spirit the games were held. Not that it wasn't done by Carthaginians, but the number, frequency and reasons are only known through what the prejudiced Roman histories say.
+Remicas There is actually no evidence to support that the Cartheginians did sacrifice children. And the Greeks thought highly of Carthage, much higher than they thought of Rome. It would be weird for the Greeks to critisie the sarifices of Celts but praise the baby killing Carthaginians
+against the wind slavery was a very common thing almost everywhere
+Firecage Men die, and feminasty suffer from it (as Clinton said)
+Jay McJakome The Romans even resorted to human sacrifice during the Punuc Wars.
There's a book called "Lion's Blood" by Steve Barnes that deals with an alternate history where Carthage defeated Rome. In this scenario, Africa and the Middle East become the cultural and technological centers of the world, settle North America, and use the tribal Europeans for slave labor. The book is set in 1863, and is told from the perspective of a Celtic boy who is enslaved and taken to Bilalistan, the Islamic state that takes the place of the America. It's a neat exploration of how African culture might have evolved without European influence.
Hey Cody, I love your channel. This stuff is great! What if cleopatra never existed?
Well I would personally think that you'd end up with a fusion of celtic, germanic, and Norse beliefs throughout Europe and Britain. There'd still be lots of different kingdoms, but the pagan soup that exists would be a cultural unifies so I"m guessing it would be a lot like Greece in that respect.
Eventually you'd have powerful leaders that grow large kingdoms here or there. Whether or not the feudal system would develop I cannot say but to my layperson views it feels possible you would given the whole personal honor and loyalty thing. Feel free to correct me though.
I'm pretty sure the Vikings would still be a thing since 'going viking' basically was 'hey lets get a few longboats full of guys and pillage the shit out of everything over thataway.' Easy way to make money and get stuff so you can survive the winter. Plus the Vikings came from the Scandinavian countries which have a history and tradition of the sea, which means you probably would still get them exploring out into greenland, iceland, and eventually newfoundland (and possibly Minnesota?) even without the Romans.
Britain probably would unify, or at least each island would unify into its own kingdom, and they still have that cultural unified going on so while it wouldn't be roman, it would all still be a fairly similar culture.
Of course then you have the problem of the Mongols later on. They would still happen no matter who was what in europe, and I"m not sure how things would go. Rome introduced and spread a lot of things beyond culture. The idea of roads, standing armies, trade and language. Granted Carthage might have that whole trade thing going on, but Carthage is far closer to where the Khans had hit, the Ottomans and so on, than Europe, and so the european tribes/kingdoms might just go 'Good, we don't have those fishmongours staring down their noses at us.'
+Andrew Singleton well the Parthians could fight the Mongols
+Andrew Singleton Gauls had road before
rome did but Gualian people were very smart infact they invent soap and other things.
But The gualian people were tribal for most history but before rome coquered it, there some see that tribal system in gaul was broken in favour of more city-state look
+Nerds Eternal OMG THAT WOULD BE SO HILARIOUS, AM EMPIRE OF FORMER ASIAN HORSE ARCHERS NOMADS VS EMPIRE MAKING ASIAN HORSE ARCHERS
I disagree. I think the cultural difference between the Germanic tribes and Celtic tribes would have been much more violent and significant. Also, there was a larger difference between the Druids and German Pagans. Just because they are both Polytheistic does not mean they were that similar.
The Celts likely would have still been overran by the Germans considering the Romans and Germans were both fighting the Gauls for France. The Celts, due to their fractured political/tribal situation were easily easily defeated by more advanced military tactics. Many Celtic battles were small skirmishes where champions fought instead of mass battles. The Celts were more sophisticated than the Germans, but this also made them more vunerable than the much more warlike Germanic tribes.
the vikings raided other pagans to the east as well as "christian" europe, so i doubt paganism would unify. besides, the unifying factor of christianity in the beginning was its literary traditions, namely the bible, which paganism didn't have.
living under and around the romans is what taught the "barbarians" civilization. if there's no rome, this would never have happened. without a rome, i think islam would have overwhelmed europe like it did the middle-east and north africa. islam would be the dominant religion in europe and arabic likely the lingua franca.
without rome, israel and judea never would have been renamed to palestine.
+thephoenix134 true but sooner or later islam/the arabs would have conquered it.
which might end up being named something else
OnceUponATimeThereWasAPersonWithALongUsername.TheElongationOfThatUsernameWasPlainlyLegendary
yes but they typically still knew Hebrew, Aramaic and potentially a native language.
OnceUponATimeThereWasAPersonWithALongUsername.TheElongationOfThatUsernameWasPlainlyLegendary this is amazing info is there any others links you can send me or anything else you can tell me?
+OnceUponATimeThereWasAPersonWithALongUsername.TheElongationOfThatUsernameWasPlainlyLegendary By the time Arabs came to the land there was less than 1,000 Jews living in Syria-Palestine... So no they were not slowly arabized. And if they were (which they weren't) the defiantly wouldn't have been Bedouin how were the people living on the land during that time period before Jewish settlers.
You would expect people to start a flame war because of this comment. Faith in humanity restored(?)
I want part 2 soon !
1:45 *historically accurate depiction
Seems legit.
All joking aside, I love the Alternative History Hub!
What if napoleon payed his wheat credits to Algeria instead of colonizing it ? they were nice to France when french people had famine & peste.
I've been doing a project for school and I recently found out about a giant collapse of civilizations around 1200 bc. It would be awesome if you made an alternate history vid about that, if needed I can help with it -> provide info and maybe even draw a script.
Something I don't like, you're totally forgetting about the Celts, who while not untied under a single banner, were still a major player at this time. They had the largest sphere of influence across Europe before rome.
What if Leon Trotsky came to power in the Soviet Union instead of Stalin? How would he have handled Nazi Germany and World War 2? And if they still defeat Germany, would Russia have still emerged as a Superpower as in our timeline? Or would it have been weaker then how Stalin left it? Or perhaps stronger?
You are not exectly right with Carthage inner and foreign politics. There was a conflict between democratic and oligarchic parties in Qart-Hadasht. Democratic party, because of lost in First Punic War, came to power in Carthage. Hannibal was from this party. So, they did conquest, but in different way from Romans. Phoenicians from Qart-Hadasht wanted to expand their trade influence, so, for example, in Iberia, they were mostly made local iberians pay tribute. Like Persians did in Achaemenid Empire.
And Carthageans did trade in Britain even before the estabilishing of Republic in Rome. So, if Carthage replaced Rome, Europe and even Africa(cause Carthageans did trade with black people and numidians in Africa) will be united and civilizied by trade. This would be an interesing scenario.
That makes me want to see, but would you mind if I ask how was the life for Phoenicians in Roman Africa?
Nerd
i think your right mate
damn i suddenly feel like watching part 2, how about you release one cody.
Really interested in seeing this. For some time now I've been working on and off on an alt-history novel set 2,000 years after Carthage won the Second Punic War. I wonder if we'll have the same ideas about what the world would look like. I've always seen that timeline as one where the non-Grecco-Roman cultures of Europe manage to develop on their own. Mind you, I'm no historian...
EDIT: Seems we're on the same page, lol, even if I've done a horrific job of explaining it. Certainly, while writing the hardest hurdle I've yet to jump is simply how different Europe would be. There are so many things Rome brought about in Europe, from the massive to the minute. Anyway, I can't wait for part two man! I've always hoped you'd cover this someday, but never bothered to ask.
What if the crusades were a success?
The crusades were a success for two hundred years Europeans held the holy lands in relative peace
i would be glad if carthage won
yo me too . but not because of romans themselfs but because christianity . if it didnt exist in either casses i wouldnt care if carthage or rome won
V lame, delete your account
@@user-sp3yu1ft6y wtf is wrong with you
I think if you mentioned hannibal you should have mentioned scipio africanus too. Anyways, great video as always!
I take it there won't be a part two for this? It's been a couple years. Unless I'm missing something, I'd love to see a part two.
The whole term barbarians is deeply patronising and misleading, the Gauls an Brittanic tribes were actually quite civilised and extremly advanced especially in pottery and metallurgy. They were different than the more city orientated Mediterranean states but different doesn't necessarily mean worse.
The whole idea of them being ''Barbaric'' was basically a PR stunt by the romans to justify their conquest.
Didn't the term barbarian come from the fact that people thought their languages sounded like 'bar bar bar-ing'?
Barbaric just means anyone who isn´t greek,or roman in this case
Sounds familiar.. oh yeah right colonial Europe with Africa
tunisia " carthage now" would be better place .. much powerful
And maybe it wouldn't have been invaded by the Arabs...
Carthage will come back, trust me!
@@momobobo1276 i wish i have carthagian blood i mean i get mad when i here about rome
@@alexmite2107 no it will and america will be arab
@@syntrexbarca1177 Of course you do have, before Arabs we were speaking Punic, and we considered ourselves as Carthaginians.
Hi just recently subscribe to this new and interesting channel :) for a request could you do a video about what if the invasion of England (Vikings/Saxons etc..) never happened ?
Great video and hypothesis, Cod-ster! People take for granted that Carthage was just like Rome, but it was not. I disagree with you about the spread of the Christian Faith to a certain extent. I definitely think that it still would have spread across Europe, just as pagan beliefs and trade spread across Europe. However, it would have gone slower, as you noted. I'm not so sure that, as it became the official Faith of the Roman Empire, that it wouldn't have brought more people into the Roman sphere of influence, at least. It's a very intriguing story line. You should definitely do another video on this story line. Very well done, Cody!!! Please keep the outstanding videos coming and God bless you, my friend!
so far, your estimate is incredibly short sighted. would a financially focused society simply expand its influence to other areas? the Carthaginian consortium would have found and expanded the silk road and war could have ended up the ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT. in fact, it would have been seen as barbaric. they may have developed a department of defense, but may have still sought to trade with anyone bearing food, wine - beer in the case of the Anglo-german neighbors - and other trinkets.
from what I understand of Phoenicians, and thus Carthaginians, the Mediterranean would have been a starter for Wall Street. things would have been so much different, maybe even better! war would have been rare, trade would have been high and the world could have been unified in some social/capital form.
natchnieni0 When trade ceases to cross borders, soldiers will.
What if Belisarius accepted the crown of the Western Roman Empire?
Well he technically acepted it he just gave it up right after
+Cameron Jackson For less than an hour. Belisarius in our timeline accepted it just to get a full victory from the Ostrogoths. I'd like to hear a scenario where he keeps the crown instead of taking Italy for Justinian
Belisarius never had any children, so any such empire would face very series succession problems after he dies.
He could simply adopt a son, like so many before him
yeah even in the days of the kingdom most of kings adopted a more competent person to rule
Holy crap. New favorite channel on TH-cam. I love it. More than a little late to the party, but I think that European perception of war and violence would be changed dramatically in Rome's absence. Near as I can tell, war was considered glorious, necessary and celebrated all the way up to world war 1 due mainly to Roman influence. In this new world, it would be seen as a more mundane profession by civilization at large. One of those dirty jobs that someone's gotta do.
Cody I have been watching Your videos for 3 Months now . And some of them are quite interesting. I have a suggestion "If Africa never Existed". I would like to know how much this cenario would affect Global History :)
carthage is tunisia now
ok.
Who cares !
I have a thought of this a while back. (cause, you know... Rome: Total war back then... sheesh)
Because, Carthaginians are such a robust people. They have access to almost every godforsaken people and influence on Classical world, you name it: Greeks check!, Egyptians check!, Hispanic Tribes check!, Islander Romans check! and even the Indigenous Libyans and Numidians of the North Africa, which are fearsome people wielding javelins on the back of Elephants. Their armies are closely modeled after their Greek and Egyptian Neighbours. They lose because Hannibal is such a Badass Jacknut, that he prefer to, after he cross the Alps, march at Winter (Bad decision indeed) and to attack the Romans as fast and as brutally as possible (Another Bad Decision) at Tiberias River (Or Tiber river what you might call it {And also another Bad Decision} ).
Now, If we keep saying that Carthage, like every known Eastern Power (Except for the Seljuqs and the Ottomans, cause they are Jackasses), an Economically powerful Empire, Instead of the Suggested "Swap". Carthage will built Trade Posts instead of Conquering every known landmass. They will, like Europeans in the 16th century, begin to colonize lands like the Cyprus, Ionia, Damascus, Marseilles, The British Isles, and Barcelona and expand from there... Until they manage to figure out Sailboats (and eventually, Carracks). Which could end in The Carthaginians finding the Americas (well, the Caribbean or the Guiana)
Secondly, Carthage, have an.. Interesting... Monotheistic God named "Baal"... Baal has a Fascination of Babies... in form of Carcasses... He orders "his followers" to give.. ah.. some goodies he like... to appease him... Now, this scenario will make him Famous and... You should know the rest... And that makes the Baby Mortality rate Increases drastically. and makes the world a bit un-crowded in the future.
That's just a thought of mine tho... and what I would like to share
Guess that would be a good thing, no disabled people/babys, no burden on there parents and themselves, and a low population leading to prosperity
+the2great2bob eh... I don't say the babies are disabled... Baal despises Defect babies. It's like when you are buying something and that thing quality is shit... No, World would be 1/3 from what we are today or worse... Defect or Not...
the defect are thrown to the pit while the good ones are given as a Sacrifice for him
+Ari Bantala Christian God vs baal, Rome vs Chartage. hehe
So you're saying that Hannibal invented the blitzkrieg?
By that time christianity didnt appear yet godamn
Nice work. Idea for you: What if Yugoslavia never emerged?
So glad i got taught this in school, so i have background knowledge before listening.
Dont forget the seleukian Empire which rising soon after the punic wars...Rom later defeate this empire. I an alternate timeline this could be the next empire!
Are we talking about Greek selucids? Apparently there's evidence they tried to copy roman military structure, tactics and armour.
I like my French fries like I like my Carthage.
Extra salted
Hey Cody, I have and idea for a video: what if Finland won the Winter war or the Continuation war?
Just cuz im finnish cx
This is the first video I looked for when I came to this channel. Rome's Impact on the world was so great that simply removing them would have severely changed the world, and Hannibal was so close to making this the reality. Much of the Western Hemisphere would probably still belong to the indigenous people, and Islam would have easily become the unifying religion throughout Europe, Africa, and probably Asia, since Christianity would not have had Rome to defend it. It's mind-blowing to think that one battle at Rome about 2200 years ago fought between just a couple hundred thousand people could have changed history so much for the entire world..
what if the cold war never happend?
i'm so proud that i'm carthaginian ^^
It's good, but why almost of your people believe in Islam instead of your ancestor's polytheism?
@TunisianFanOf military christian is assimilating with polytheism hahahah
I had never thought about this...our world would be such a different place. So incredible to think about.
2:34 A more detailed (albeit not complete) picture of Hannibal's accomplishments can be seen in Extra History's coverage of the Second Punic War.
What if the Cold War became a World War 3?
What if the Moors had defeated Charlemagne at France?
John Jackson YES
Charles Martel not Charlemagne