Fantastic video - I would like to present a secondary lie angle issue with wedges which I would argue could be more important for fitting - and that is chipping & pitching lie-angle. I am a Mizuno -1.5 lie angle golfer - thus a 60-degree 7-iron - this translates to a 61.5/62-degree wedges. Having spent a few hundred hours chipping & pitching practice last year during Covid, it occurred to me halfway through the yr, that while chipping & pitching, my misses were mostly Right - whereas, my full shots were neutral from a lie perspective. Knowing this, and then thinking about my wedges, I decided to try more upright wedges (64-degrees) and see if I preferred this setup from a handicapping perspective. Immediately, my greenside pitching & chipping, while still slightly Right, were far more on target - the obvious consequence being full shot 120 to 60-yard shots would be Left. I then did the experiment of how much to chock up on the wedges to flatten the lie-angle for full shots - this was about 1/2"-3/4". When you look at how most better golfers now chip & pitch, or at least the modern teaching technique, it is to stand closer to the ball, put the shaft more verticle, and chock up on the grip slightly - all in order to get closer to the ball, lifting the heel of the club slightly for clearly impact in some situations, but also to increase control using a shorter shaft -> all of which leads to inducing a flatter lie angle to your wedges that you use in this fashion. If you then combine this with the modern Strokes Gained analysis of golf, specifically your percentage chance of making putts from different distances - it then becomes mathematically obvious that you really want to concentrate on getting your chips & pitches inside 8 feet because your chances of 1-putting explode in your favor - thus I would argue that while fitting your lie-angle for wedges is more important than any other club, the real question should be, in what gaming situation should you be fitting the lie-angle for your wedges?? I would argue, and have implemented myself after enormous practice, the exact opposite lie angles from where I started (i.e. flat_ to actually be more Upright from my entire set - and that's because I can choke up slightly on my wedges for full shots (where you are almost certainly & statistically going to be 2-putting with) to focus on trying to 1-putt statistically when you are pitching & chipping around the green using a technique where you are naturally flattening the lie-angle because you are gripping down on the club.
2-12-23 I checked my lie using your sharpie method on my 4 and 6 iron. Bought set at 1 degree flat. It was very close to straight up from the grooves. I did not have my wedges flattened and at the range all my wedge shots are going left (right handed). My sand wedge goes 6 yards left. Same dispersion on a 60° wedge. Also a static test of position on the ground will not be the same as a club during the swing.
Late to the party but two thoughts: 1) When it comes to driver, I don't think 2* is a good measure because many are swinging driver on a plane around 45-50*, that puts most drivers at 10-15* upright during strike. Just multiplying that by .2 could be as much as 3* leftward face angle in the "neutral" position. Then on top of that I notice the following with driver especially: 2) as another said, it seems to me there's an additional rotational component. The toe feels it "wants" to flip over more if the clubs are more upright than they should be. Not necessarily due to ground interaction, but still.
my clubs are 0.5 more upright than an older set I use pretty much for all clubs. With this in mind and your comments above if I have clubs that are strongly lofted ( about 2 or 3 degrees higher with new improvement irons - Callaway Steelhead XR) then what impact will the lie angle have on my shot pattern and also what pattern will it have on my distance. Also, with shaft length too short how will it affect pattern and distance with these irons?
Great video. Should there be an extra allowance for the effect of the toe or heel touching down first with the "wrong" lie angle? That would further twist the face right or left as it would want to pivot around that point? Would this account for bigger misses than your calculation?
With the exception of the wedges, every other club will have already hit the ball by the time the sole makes contact with the ground. Not sure how much it effects the short irons. Would probably need to get some high speed camera footage of the club through the turf to identify it.
Maybe another stupid question, but would you ever expect to see short iron benefiting lie angle decrease to flat, mid irons no change, long irons 4-5 benefiting lie angle increase (toe up)… .. I am interested in the Takomo 201 vs 101T, but I don’t know enough about buying the heads and building myself. On the flip side, I would to fit them.
Really useful video. My irons were fit at 2 degrees up and seem fine. Would the 2 up also apply to the wedges? The second hand ones I have are flat and feel slightly flat.
I know some golfers who play the wedges flatter b/c they play them more open for flop shots etc. Just depends on preference. I would do a sharpie check on the wedges and see if the lie looks correct hitting with a square face. That's the simple fast way to know for sure.
how accurate is your loft lie machine measuring loft and lie compared to the spec guage? I've have the same golf mechanix bending machine but don't feel its necessary for me to invest in a spec guage if my loft lie machine is somewhat accurate. I'm more interested in measurements being relative from club to club not necessarily concerned if 26 degrees is actually 26 degrees if that makes sense.
I got the big gauge so I could do work with woods, putters etc. Use it in a good number of videos but don't think most people would ever need one. If you have a way to calibrate your loft lie, that's the most you probably ever need.
Does a club 1/2 inch longer than standard have a different lie angle from the factory than a standard length club? Would I have to order a club 1 degree flatter in order to keep from hitting it left, assuming a standard lie with standard length was going straight? Thanks in advance. I enjoy your videos.
Exactly. OEMs will treat length and lie independently. You would need to specify each measurement. While 1/2 inch length change often equals 1 degree lie change, it's not a guarantee as it assumes the golfer makes no change in set up or posture based on the new length and simply stands further or closer to the ball. If this isn't the case, the 1/2 inch to 1 degree rule goes out the window.
Hello AJ! Does an iron with tungsten weight ( or a screw like ping) on the toe promote a flatter lie angle or more droop in the shaft of the club at impact?
Changing loft will just be based on getting the right gapping between and leading into the wedges. As for lie, do a sharpie test to see if you need to adjust. th-cam.com/video/BeAIN--vz68/w-d-xo.html
They are independent. Lie changes move in one plane, and loft move in the perpendicular plane. Only time they are linked is when we talk about adjustable hosel woods and hybrids because the shaft is limited to moving in a cone shape.
Bought a used set of irons. Took them to the range. First swing with 6 iron was 30 yards left. Ok. Hmmm. Second swing the same. They were jacked about 2° upright. Got them bent and things were fine after that.
So what if, say your driver shaft at impact is at 48 degrees and you have a driver set at 58 degrees lie angle with a xx stiff shaft with minimal drooping, and a ball speed around 175mph... Is that going to cause 20-30 yards of draw?
So that would give us a little over 1/2 degree of face change which comparitively is still small but if you extend it over a 315 yard drive it could be substantial. The other trick with drivers is factoring in the bulge and how that can alter results if we don't make perfect center contact.
Adjusting lie angles is recommended on forged clubs only, or no? I’m a very short person who uses standard length clubs, up until this summer I never new what lie angle meant. I do not use forged clubs. I am 5’ 6” in golf shoes .😒
Forged club are usually easier to bend and to a greater amount. Cast irons can be bent, but it depends on the brand and material as to how much they will bend. Often a cast club will only bend 1 or 2 degrees before you risk breaking them. They can be bent at the factory or new clubs can be ordered with adjusted lie angles though.
Which clubs cannot be adjusted for lie and loft? Some "aftermarket" clubs use suspect steel quality and can easily snap. How will a fitter know when to go ahead with adjustment vs walking away from a possible disaster?
First I would say you need to go to a club builder, not a fitter. Some fitters know more than others but most will not have the knowledge or experience repairing and altering clubs. Same deal with club pros. As far as what can bend and what can't, it will come down again to experience and feel. Clubs that are willing to bend, will let you know pretty quick. Clubs that don't will put up a fight. At this point I have a pretty good database in my head as to which brands and head styles will work with me and which ones will fight. Some brands like Ping I know will always be almost impossible for most of their stuff. You can usually get 1 degree out of anything, from there you just use best judgement.
@@EFGMC Now I understand better why Ping uses the colour dots to indicate lie angle. I think I had the ideal person to fit my clubs. He was a club pro who was very good at both fitting and club making. Unfortunately he retired about 10 years ago. I bought a set of Ben Hogan Apex blades, 1 iron through e wedge, from him and when the 6 iron shaft broke under the grip he replaced the shaft with no charge. When he adjusted the lie angles for me I traded a couple of linen belt sander belts that he ended up being very happy to have. That set offered a great answer for me about who should play blades. The answer is simple, anyone who enjoys playing blades should play them. Those who believe that a 1 iron is hard to hit have likely never teed one up. I could hit it dead straight to a mild fade off a tee.
@@EFGMC I left them stock from the beginning since I often hit less than full jihad shots while in a variety of open stances. I also made them heavier. D4 in 3 iron, D4.5 4 iron, D5 in 7, 8, 9 irons, D5.5 PW and D6 in the Vokey's
these are the exact face angle deviations based on 2 degree lie angle change (you were pretty darn close for eyeballing a gauge with no decimal precision :P): 5:25 SW 54.5*sin(2)=1.90 degrees 6:05 8i 35.5*sin(2)=1.24 degrees 6:48 Dr 10*sin(2)=0.35 degrees 7:10 Pt 4*sin(2)=0.14 degrees the point of the video was very well made--the face angle deviation is proportional to the natural loft of the club. here's the mathematical explanation for the nerds who are interested: face angle deviation is proportional to the sine of the lie angle deviation. for a lie angle deviation of 2 degrees, this is essentially a deviation in the face angle of 3.5% (sin(2degrees)) multiplied by the natural loft of the club. no math, intuitive explanation of how lie angle affects face angle: imagine a club with 45 degrees loft and 90 degrees lie angle (think perfectly vertical shaft with pitching wedge type loft). in address position with the face square to target, the face angle is pointing 0 degrees to target with 45 degrees loft. drop the handle at your feet--now lie angle is minus 90 degrees, the face is pointing 45 degrees to the left of target and there is 0 loft. address again and drop the handle away from you--now lie angle is plus 90 degrees and the face is pointing 45 degrees to the right of target with 0 loft. essentially as the lie angle deviates from its extreme left to extreme right, the face angle's extremes are limited by the original loft (in this case at most 45 degrees extreme left and at most 45 degrees extreme right) every other lie angle in between will trace a rainbow in the sky between these two extremes according to trigonometry. the lower the loft, the smaller the rainbow. a zero loft club cannot be affected by lie angle :)
I had originally thought of doing a tour van type setup that I would drive to different courses and do work on site. Never got that off the ground. Then I kept the name when I started doing YT videos and filming them on my mobile phone.
Noooo,..... just built a 3i , at 38.5L , 19 degree loft, annnnnnnnd, wait for it, a whopping 63 degrees of lie angle. No oem is going to offer that, and many poor joe schmos out there struggling with long irons, because simply, bad lie angles. Plus length and flex, n weight.
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Fantastic video - I would like to present a secondary lie angle issue with wedges which I would argue could be more important for fitting - and that is chipping & pitching lie-angle. I am a Mizuno -1.5 lie angle golfer - thus a 60-degree 7-iron - this translates to a 61.5/62-degree wedges. Having spent a few hundred hours chipping & pitching practice last year during Covid, it occurred to me halfway through the yr, that while chipping & pitching, my misses were mostly Right - whereas, my full shots were neutral from a lie perspective. Knowing this, and then thinking about my wedges, I decided to try more upright wedges (64-degrees) and see if I preferred this setup from a handicapping perspective. Immediately, my greenside pitching & chipping, while still slightly Right, were far more on target - the obvious consequence being full shot 120 to 60-yard shots would be Left. I then did the experiment of how much to chock up on the wedges to flatten the lie-angle for full shots - this was about 1/2"-3/4". When you look at how most better golfers now chip & pitch, or at least the modern teaching technique, it is to stand closer to the ball, put the shaft more verticle, and chock up on the grip slightly - all in order to get closer to the ball, lifting the heel of the club slightly for clearly impact in some situations, but also to increase control using a shorter shaft -> all of which leads to inducing a flatter lie angle to your wedges that you use in this fashion. If you then combine this with the modern Strokes Gained analysis of golf, specifically your percentage chance of making putts from different distances - it then becomes mathematically obvious that you really want to concentrate on getting your chips & pitches inside 8 feet because your chances of 1-putting explode in your favor - thus I would argue that while fitting your lie-angle for wedges is more important than any other club, the real question should be, in what gaming situation should you be fitting the lie-angle for your wedges?? I would argue, and have implemented myself after enormous practice, the exact opposite lie angles from where I started (i.e. flat_ to actually be more Upright from my entire set - and that's because I can choke up slightly on my wedges for full shots (where you are almost certainly & statistically going to be 2-putting with) to focus on trying to 1-putt statistically when you are pitching & chipping around the green using a technique where you are naturally flattening the lie-angle because you are gripping down on the club.
A splendid video with great attention to detail !
2-12-23 I checked my lie using your sharpie method on my 4 and 6 iron. Bought set at 1 degree flat. It was very close to straight up from the grooves. I did not have my wedges flattened and at the range all my wedge shots are going left (right handed). My sand wedge goes 6 yards left. Same dispersion on a 60° wedge. Also a static test of position on the ground will not be the same as a club during the swing.
Late to the party but two thoughts: 1) When it comes to driver, I don't think 2* is a good measure because many are swinging driver on a plane around 45-50*, that puts most drivers at 10-15* upright during strike. Just multiplying that by .2 could be as much as 3* leftward face angle in the "neutral" position. Then on top of that I notice the following with driver especially: 2) as another said, it seems to me there's an additional rotational component. The toe feels it "wants" to flip over more if the clubs are more upright than they should be. Not necessarily due to ground interaction, but still.
my clubs are 0.5 more upright than an older set I use pretty much for all clubs. With this in mind and your comments above if I have clubs that are strongly lofted ( about 2 or 3 degrees higher with new improvement irons - Callaway Steelhead XR) then what impact will the lie angle have on my shot pattern and also what pattern will it have on my distance. Also, with shaft length too short how will it affect pattern and distance with these irons?
Great video. Should there be an extra allowance for the effect of the toe or heel touching down first with the "wrong" lie angle? That would further twist the face right or left as it would want to pivot around that point? Would this account for bigger misses than your calculation?
With the exception of the wedges, every other club will have already hit the ball by the time the sole makes contact with the ground. Not sure how much it effects the short irons. Would probably need to get some high speed camera footage of the club through the turf to identify it.
It has to effect it in my opinion. If the hosel makes contact with ground twisting the head during ball strikes it’s going left.
Wow. This is so interesting. Thanks AJ!
Hi, what is the brand and name of the Spec measurement device you are using? Thanks
SUPERB !!! GREAT INSIGHT. !!
Maybe another stupid question, but would you ever expect to see short iron benefiting lie angle decrease to flat, mid irons no change, long irons 4-5 benefiting lie angle increase (toe up)… .. I am interested in the Takomo 201 vs 101T, but I don’t know enough about buying the heads and building myself. On the flip side, I would to fit them.
I've not seen that particular setup but that doesn't mean it might not work for you. I do know some people who make all their wedges flat.
Really useful video. My irons were fit at 2 degrees up and seem fine. Would the 2 up also apply to the wedges? The second hand ones I have are flat and feel slightly flat.
I know some golfers who play the wedges flatter b/c they play them more open for flop shots etc. Just depends on preference. I would do a sharpie check on the wedges and see if the lie looks correct hitting with a square face. That's the simple fast way to know for sure.
how accurate is your loft lie machine measuring loft and lie compared to the spec guage? I've have the same golf mechanix bending machine but don't feel its necessary for me to invest in a spec guage if my loft lie machine is somewhat accurate. I'm more interested in measurements being relative from club to club not necessarily concerned if 26 degrees is actually 26 degrees if that makes sense.
I got the big gauge so I could do work with woods, putters etc. Use it in a good number of videos but don't think most people would ever need one. If you have a way to calibrate your loft lie, that's the most you probably ever need.
Awesome analysis!!
Does a club 1/2 inch longer than standard have a different lie angle from the factory than a standard length club? Would I have to order a club 1 degree flatter in order to keep from hitting it left, assuming a standard lie with standard length was going straight? Thanks in advance. I enjoy your videos.
Exactly. OEMs will treat length and lie independently. You would need to specify each measurement.
While 1/2 inch length change often equals 1 degree lie change, it's not a guarantee as it assumes the golfer makes no change in set up or posture based on the new length and simply stands further or closer to the ball. If this isn't the case, the 1/2 inch to 1 degree rule goes out the window.
@@EFGMC Thanks for your prompt and informative response.
Hello AJ! Does an iron with tungsten weight ( or a screw like ping) on the toe promote a flatter lie angle or more droop in the shaft of the club at impact?
I think you would need a lot of weight or a very soft shaft to see any meaningful change.
THANKS!!
I'm not gonna ask what the machete's for ..... nope......love your vids, bro
Cutting things!
Can you describe best when to change loft or lie on wedges?
Changing loft will just be based on getting the right gapping between and leading into the wedges. As for lie, do a sharpie test to see if you need to adjust.
th-cam.com/video/BeAIN--vz68/w-d-xo.html
@@EFGMC thank you
great analysis!
By adjusting the lie, do you then have to also adjust the loft?
They are independent. Lie changes move in one plane, and loft move in the perpendicular plane.
Only time they are linked is when we talk about adjustable hosel woods and hybrids because the shaft is limited to moving in a cone shape.
What difference does it make putting in a .355 TT with insert into a .370 hosel iron playability ?
Tip won't affect playability assuming the other specs are the same between the .355 and .370
Bought a used set of irons. Took them to the range. First swing with 6 iron was 30 yards left. Ok. Hmmm. Second swing the same. They were jacked about 2° upright. Got them bent and things were fine after that.
It can make a big difference!
So what if, say your driver shaft at impact is at 48 degrees and you have a driver set at 58 degrees lie angle with a xx stiff shaft with minimal drooping, and a ball speed around 175mph... Is that going to cause 20-30 yards of draw?
So that would give us a little over 1/2 degree of face change which comparitively is still small but if you extend it over a 315 yard drive it could be substantial. The other trick with drivers is factoring in the bulge and how that can alter results if we don't make perfect center contact.
Adjusting lie angles is recommended on forged clubs only, or no? I’m a very short person who uses standard length clubs, up until this summer I never new what lie angle meant. I do not use forged clubs. I am 5’ 6” in golf shoes .😒
Forged club are usually easier to bend and to a greater amount. Cast irons can be bent, but it depends on the brand and material as to how much they will bend. Often a cast club will only bend 1 or 2 degrees before you risk breaking them. They can be bent at the factory or new clubs can be ordered with adjusted lie angles though.
Can you bend TM sim max Os irons?
Which clubs cannot be adjusted for lie and loft? Some "aftermarket" clubs use suspect steel quality and can easily snap. How will a fitter know when to go ahead with adjustment vs walking away from a possible disaster?
First I would say you need to go to a club builder, not a fitter. Some fitters know more than others but most will not have the knowledge or experience repairing and altering clubs. Same deal with club pros.
As far as what can bend and what can't, it will come down again to experience and feel. Clubs that are willing to bend, will let you know pretty quick. Clubs that don't will put up a fight. At this point I have a pretty good database in my head as to which brands and head styles will work with me and which ones will fight. Some brands like Ping I know will always be almost impossible for most of their stuff. You can usually get 1 degree out of anything, from there you just use best judgement.
@@EFGMC Now I understand better why Ping uses the colour dots to indicate lie angle.
I think I had the ideal person to fit my clubs. He was a club pro who was very good at both fitting and club making. Unfortunately he retired about 10 years ago.
I bought a set of Ben Hogan Apex blades, 1 iron through e wedge, from him and when the 6 iron shaft broke under the grip he replaced the shaft with no charge. When he adjusted the lie angles for me I traded a couple of linen belt sander belts that he ended up being very happy to have.
That set offered a great answer for me about who should play blades. The answer is simple, anyone who enjoys playing blades should play them.
Those who believe that a 1 iron is hard to hit have likely never teed one up. I could hit it dead straight to a mild fade off a tee.
Can you bend TM sim max os irons ?
Is it safe. To assume that a flat lie change, will open the face angle
Correct
What if you have one arm shorter than the other the right side and I can't straighten it could you fit me
Sure. Would focus on the shorter arm to make sure the length felt comfortable there. Lie angle would be the same process regardless of arm length.
Awesome video
I've been working on swallowing my swing plane. last week I reset my irons from 1.5° up to 0.5° up and it's laser straight and on target.
Good deal. Remember to do those wedges also!
@@EFGMC I left them stock from the beginning since I often hit less than full jihad shots while in a variety of open stances. I also made them heavier. D4 in 3 iron, D4.5 4 iron, D5 in 7, 8, 9 irons, D5.5 PW and D6 in the Vokey's
@@BruceBusby I tried progressive SW in my irons but could not make it work for me. Hope it does better for you!
I'm assuming sHallowing?
these are the exact face angle deviations based on 2 degree lie angle change (you were pretty darn close for eyeballing a gauge with no decimal precision :P):
5:25 SW 54.5*sin(2)=1.90 degrees
6:05 8i 35.5*sin(2)=1.24 degrees
6:48 Dr 10*sin(2)=0.35 degrees
7:10 Pt 4*sin(2)=0.14 degrees
the point of the video was very well made--the face angle deviation is proportional to the natural loft of the club. here's the mathematical explanation for the nerds who are interested: face angle deviation is proportional to the sine of the lie angle deviation. for a lie angle deviation of 2 degrees, this is essentially a deviation in the face angle of 3.5% (sin(2degrees)) multiplied by the natural loft of the club.
no math, intuitive explanation of how lie angle affects face angle: imagine a club with 45 degrees loft and 90 degrees lie angle (think perfectly vertical shaft with pitching wedge type loft). in address position with the face square to target, the face angle is pointing 0 degrees to target with 45 degrees loft. drop the handle at your feet--now lie angle is minus 90 degrees, the face is pointing 45 degrees to the left of target and there is 0 loft. address again and drop the handle away from you--now lie angle is plus 90 degrees and the face is pointing 45 degrees to the right of target with 0 loft. essentially as the lie angle deviates from its extreme left to extreme right, the face angle's extremes are limited by the original loft (in this case at most 45 degrees extreme left and at most 45 degrees extreme right) every other lie angle in between will trace a rainbow in the sky between these two extremes according to trigonometry. the lower the loft, the smaller the rainbow. a zero loft club cannot be affected by lie angle :)
Thanks for all that work. I know there are definitely some people here who will want this info.
Excellent
Thanks for watching!
I’ve always wondered about the ‘Mobile’. And I just noticed the concrete block wall in this clip. Doesn’t look too mobile to me. What gives? 😜
I had originally thought of doing a tour van type setup that I would drive to different courses and do work on site. Never got that off the ground. Then I kept the name when I started doing YT videos and filming them on my mobile phone.
Noooo,..... just built a 3i , at 38.5L , 19 degree loft, annnnnnnnd, wait for it, a whopping 63 degrees of lie angle.
No oem is going to offer that, and many poor joe schmos out there struggling with long irons, because simply, bad lie angles. Plus length and flex, n weight.
It's all about finding what works for you.
@@EFGMC ... true.