I'm a level 3 EV tech in Norway, and batteries catching on fire by themselves is extremely rare. Even in collisions it's quite rare. You can't put out a battery fire, but you can control it by cooling it (with water). We replace single modules every day. When you replace them you have to balance the voltage to match the old modules. Then you won't overload any of them.
Thank you! I was very confused as to why a supposed expert on EVs would claim that it isn't possible to replace only a single module with a new one. That is why battery balancing procedures exist! Battery packs are repaired all the time that way with no ill effects. If this Dirk guy is the best the US has to offer, well, Eric is definitely correct that we are wayyy behind Europe.
@@applehuggerIt can be true for some batteries that module swapping is not a permanent fix. It is entirely dependent on battery and BMS architecture. On classic Tesla batrery packs when doing module swaps it is bound to happen where the swapped modules will always drift at a different rate and after a couple of years the BMS can no longer keep up with the balancing of the swapped module. Then you get the main BMS saying no as the cells are too far away from each other and you are back to square one. Hence the only long lasting solutions are to cut fuses from the individual cells for all modules if you have one bad cell OR drill out the one bad cell from the module and replace it with a sufficiently cycled same kind of cell. With this method you are not replacing too much of the battery module's capacity for the BMS to not be able to balance the module in the future.
@@applehugger hang out with model plane and model boat and cars guys that use LI ION and see devised all these solutions like balance cells packs years ago
it feels like your energy is in a better place now. I recall your early videos and you weren't always in a great place but persevered. I hope for your continued growth, joy, and success in life.
Thanks, Eric. It's great to hear this from you. So many of us EV owners can't talk to 'car guys' or mechanics without stirring up some negative feelings one way or another. I've owned loud and fast cars that run on leaded 100 and E85 for years. I've printed a lot of speeding tickets. I probably still have a larger left leg from all the clutch work. I've turned wrenches, bled, and done some sketchy shit on cars. Lots of rubber left in the burnout box, lots of money left on the dyno. I get it. I consider myself a 'car guy'. But I lose that when talking to other 'car guys'. I'm on my second EV. I didn't get into one for green reasons, to make a 'statement', or anything like that. I got into it because when gas is $5/gallon, (my first) EV cost as much to drive as a gas car getting 120 MPG. Cheeeap. My parking spot is also my gas station. I plug it into my dryer outlet when I want to charge quick or just a 120V outlet when I just need to make up for the commute. My second EV is a Kia. And guess what, it hauls ass. With a full charge, this thing runs a low to mid 11 sec quarter mile around 120. 60 MPH comes in just over 3 seconds and it'll top out around 160. Right from the factory. And it only cost about as much as a fully spec'd out Rav4. The battery will take up to 200,000 watts of 800V power to charge from 20-80% in about 15 minutes on a road trip. It has AWD. I love it. It lacks soul, yes. And I do miss rowing through the gears. It's a heavy pig in the corners. But man, it still puts a hell of a smile on my face. You're dead on with following the money. MECHANICS. Look, nobody other than stealerships wants to touch these things. They're scared shitless of them. They still have ball joints, bearings, steering racks, A/C condensers, brakes, and 12V electrical systems. In many ways these things are the same cars you wrench on all day long. They're also wicked expensive to work on, as Eric pointed out. But if you can undercut the dealership on labor, which most independent shops do normally, you will have customers lined up. If you can source refurb or used parts, you're getting your customers a better deal than they usually get. Just put a sign out front saying you work on EVs and your phone will ring. I miss my local independent. I wish they would work on my car. But I know when this lease is up I'm not going to buy it because I'll be stuck taking it to the dealership for the inevitable maintenance. Also, if you sell tires, they print money. EVs are heavy as all hell, have gobs of torque, and take expensive tires. My summer tire set is $1,600 at the discount shop. I don't know what their margins are, but you fine folks need to get a piece of that action. Seriously. Take our money.
Great comment and true on all points. I miss the independent shop I trusted my VW to and am not looking forward to relying on Volvo for my maintenance. There is so much that can be done outside of the battery and electric motors and I feel shops are really missing out on this.
One of the fire suppression methods currently being researched that I really like involves setting an industry standard interface for a fire suppression device that would hook to a saline tank carried by firefighters. It takes a ludicrous amount of saline to begin suppressing a battery fire, and really you're not suppressing the fire so much as forcing a controlled rapid release of remaining energy within the battery's chemistry, but the fact that there's talk of an industry-wide standard is encouraging!
I got ev certified though nissan a while back now and i dont regret it at all, making bank on it and really i find them easier to work on then ice vehicles. I like both btw.
I've worked with battery banks for a long time. The big danger with an open battery pack is the high voltage and high current DC is alway present. You cannot turn off a battery. If you short something in a open pack it will melt it or outright vaporize what ever you shorted. Alway insulated tools, always gloves and no distractions. It is pretty much like working on live electrical panel, something electricians hate doing. Also DC arcs are hard to break 400 volts can pull a 1 foot arc. I'm not afraid to work batteries I just respect the battery and do everything to avoid mistakes.
I learned in the class that some of the contacts used in EVs are sealed with hydrogen to help mitigate that arc you mentioned. When the hydrogen leaks out, that contact, and possibly the entire system, is toast. Thanks for the comment.
I recently started an independent EV repair shop in Portland Oregon called WattWorks (and worked at a shop in the San Diego area for about 7 years before moving back up here). I work on a little bit of everything from very common cars like the Nissan LEAF, and the various Tesla models, to low volume "compliance cars" like Smarts and Fiat 500es. Though my specialties tend to lie in the Tesla powered cars (including the Toyota RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED, both built under partnerships with Tesla). In my time at QC Charge in San Diego, we were one of the earliest pioneers in rebuilding the Tesla "Large Drive Unit", which is prone to a few different failure modes, though the biggest one these days is coolant intrusion through leaking rotor seals. That remains one of my big specialties at my new shop, but besides that, I also do all sort of other HV system and powertrain related repairs, including repairs to the battery packs. By the way, my daily driver is a 9 year old Tesla Model S with over 465k miles and counting!
@@rkan2 Module swaps are not generally considered to be a "long term viable repair" on Teslas, mainly because the battery management system (BMS) is very sensitive to even the slightest differences in capacity. Even Tesla themselves stopped doing module swapping on their in house remanufactured packs a couple years ago, because they typically didn't last more than 2 years before falling out of balance. Some other EVs are a lot less sensitive to these issues, or have a BMS that can perform heavier balancing to keep things in check. All that said, particularly on the "classic" Tesla models, a lot of the battery related issues aren't caused by cell failures, but rather moisture intrusion into the battery pack, which can lead to increased humidity and condensation, which creates corrosion in certain areas. On V1.5 packs, this condensation has a tendency to collect on a certain point on the battery monitoring broads on each module, which tends to rot out two of the surface mount capacitors (C26 and C27), which leads to incorrect voltage readings. Additionally, degraded HV isolation can be another issue associated with moisture intrusion. Generally speaking, these issues are usually fixable, as long as there isn't corrosion on the cells themselves. On V2 and up packs, the corrosion issues with the BMS electronics was largely fixed due to an updated design, and they tend to be better sealed, but they can still suffer from moisture intrusion as well. However, there have been a number of cases of separated wire bonds (they connect to the BMS for cell voltage measurements and balancing), which usually seems to coincide with vehicles that have been involved in accidents, but usually not until months or even a year later.
My great grandfather owned a hardware store and was Fire Chief in Weston Mass. When gasoline became available in the early 1900's it was stored in cans in the creek... Glad you are back... Stay safe, Tim in Texas
about !00 years ago gasoline was totally different mostly low octane white paraffin today called Colmans .Take the lid of the fuel tank and it mad gas fumes very quickly and explosion from spark source and you got fire .modern fuels are high octane like Toulen and other fire resistant fule types very stable and hard to ignite sorta more like normal paraffin mixed with less than 25% type fuels like white parrifin colmans fuel .Result much harder to ignite .good thinking in 1900 store that real flamable fuel in a creek or unused water pond .Pity we can do that with Li ION
Finally, a level-headed take. I do tires primarily on EVs and it's a wonderful business to be in right now. You're also getting a lot of EV-owning subscribers to finally comment and engage with this video. :-)
I am a mechanic. I work on a lot of stuff, from industrial deisle to some of the new GDI cars. I love and welcome the electric age of cars, and i do feel they may be the answer, but we have at least 50 years to perfect the tech, like we did with the internal combustion engines. Love the channel Eric, been a fan for years, and I'm glad you're back!
My first ever EV repair was a battery on a 2017 Prius C. 4 hours later i made $350 for that job. There is good coin in it and most community colleges should be updating there curricululms for EV's, i know mine did. It was very helpful and has been beneficial in my time as a technician
As always I love your attitude Eric! Tech is tech and cars are cars, period. Tbh. I really never got or get the general antipathy towards new tech, like EVs. Why do boatloads of people feel the need to choose sides? It doesn't have to be either/or. There aren't any camps; It's all in your head! Intelligent peope adapt. No one will blame you for being an old school petrol head and be inspired by new tech like EVs at the same time. Rest assured. Just regard it as a nice opportunity to learn about new tech, be enlightened and enhance your skill set, hell maybe even make a few extra bucks on the side while doing so ;-)
Rivian has done a good job in the EV market. Tesla is an embarrassment. They tried to come out with “something new” but they had horrible quality control issues that don’t exist on any other vehicle such as the hoods flying off going down the highway. I think this has caused a lot of negative perception. As a mechanic, EV’s are a nightmare because the only things left to work on are repetitive, non rewarding jobs, the most likely will always be some sort of electrical fault within the wiring harnesses. Nobody wants to spend all day doing brakes and ball joints, it’s like living in hell.
Great vid, Eric! And excellent description of the Tech levels and what training and knowledge each entail! SAFETY is so much more critical working on an EV, not just lid off battery module work but any EV components.
There won't be any keeping up with the times when it comes to person transportation, they don't want us owning/traveling period. # agenda 2030, research the WEF if you have no clue.
I’m level 2 certified on EV’s in the US there actually is a level 3 here as well and it’s for working on live circuits IE if the battery contact switch gets arc welded together those are the guys who can disconnect it. There are very few of those in the US I’m currently working with Freightliner to obtain mine. I’m a diesel tech by trade but the company I service has been acquiring a few EV tractors so will be nice to have. After having attended all these classes though I can attest that they are very safe to own and operate.
If you have an ev battery module that is slightly different than the rest, sometimes you can slowly drain all cells down and recharge to level it out. It takes days to do it properly, but it has worked for me.
Great video. I live in Central Ohio and have driven EVs for the past 8 years. My first one was a Ford Focus Electric and it served me well. However, the one major issue with that car was the coolant hoses that ran through the battery pack would eventually leak. This never caused a fire, but it did put the EV system into fail safe mode and the car would basically brick. I asked around to numerous shops to see if I could get someone to open up the HV battery and check/reinforce the coolant hoses. Literally nobody would touch the car. The dealer would replace the battery if it failed (for $$$$) but wouldn't otherwise work on it. It's understandable that shops were hesitant, since there is clear danger if you don't know what you're doing. But they were also basically saying no to earning more revenue because they didn't have the time or motivation to learn a new skill. EVs are a HUGE opportunity for younger folks who aren't afraid to learn new things or set in their ways about how things "should" be.
The only thing you would learn if you added EV’s to your resume is electrical diagnosis on interior wiring. Batteries, inverters, three-phase motors, they have all been around a long time.
@@steveclark..exactly, humanity has been in thousands of years of enslavement until our lord and savior Henry Ford liberated us with the model T. Whatever sense of control you think the “system” is trying to get they already have for hundreds of years.
Yep been into them for years. Been to many classes on EV's. Professor John Kelly at Weber university does a great job explaining Ev's on his channel. Just love the technology.
By coincidence, just yesterday I saw the best video that I've ever seen on the problem with ev's. It's titled: "The unpopular truth about electric vehicles", uploaded by Hillsdale college. Definitely worth a watch.
You don't need much water to put out a battery fire. But you do need a way to deliver that water directly INSIDE the battery housing under enough pressure to overcome any outgassing pressure that may be going on. The fancy way of doing so is using a waterjet lance. The low-tech version is to use a hollow spike and pound it into the battery while running water through it. You need three things for a fire: fuel, oxidizer and HEAT. Quenching the battery cells by injecting water inside the battery pack removes the heat in a few minutes using about one gallon of water per kWh.
I don't know much about these but I do know that some of the most dramatic explosions happen when elemental lithium or sodium is exposed to water. Presumably the lithium is bonded to something else to make it more stable?
@@spelunkerd There is little exposed elemental lithium in a lithium battery. It is either in oxidized form at the cathode, in lithium salt ion form while passing through the electrolyte or embedded in anode graphite. If you ripped the anode from a charged battery and dunked it in water, you would get a slow reaction since water molecules are too large to reach lithium atoms beyond the graphite's outer surface. The problem with NMC/NCA batteries is not the lithium. It is the electrolyte and separator's decomposition generating lots of oxydants during thermal runaway, hence the difficulty in snuffing them out through conventional means. You cannot put out a self-oxidizing fire by cutting the air supply when it doesn't need to keep going. LFP batteries need to get about 20C hotter before that happens and decomposition requires ~4X as much heat, making thermal runaway harder to trigger, harder to sustain and much slower. When LFP packs go thermal, they are far less exciting to watch, looking almost like a regular fire log.
@@ETCG1 Fire trucks already have lots of specialized equipment to deal with the most common fire and rescue situations. Having a 100L dewar flask filled with a cryogenic hazard that needs to get topped up at least once a week due to boil-off and all of the related equipment including personal protection wouldn't be practical. Nitrogen also displaces oxygen and would pose an asphyxiation hazard for people in the immediate area who don't have an oxygen mask while liquid nitrogen tanks are being dumped into the battery. The water injection spike on the other hand is just a fire hose attachment. Hang a pair (EV-on-EV action where both batteries go thermal) next to the axes used to drive them in. Can be added to the whole fleet for ~$100 per truck.
I'm going to replace my Tesla model S failed module with one from a similar vehicle and year/mfg. Glad to see you are at least trying to talk bout it, some others are just thought stopping themselves into an anger spiral.
from what I've heard is fire departments are filling a large dumpster or dump truck with water and dropping in. Other departments are burying the cars in sand when the batteries are in thermal over load.
Correct, but most fire departments are ill prepared for battery fires, it comes to private contractors to do the post mortem that informs future design and safety improvements.
Hi Eric, long term watcher from Vancouver BC 🇨🇦. Congrats to you for being open minded to explore the EV industry and the potential. My wife drives a Tesla and I love my ice engine cars so have real life experience and knowledge of both. Fires from EV's are extremely rare and the stats show that. The EV disruption is happening, and one can stick their head in the sand and be an EV hater or be mature enough to learn new innovations and appreciate the engineering technology. Facts; The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world in 2023. YTD in 2024, its No 2 right behind the Toyota Rav and could be No 1 again.
All great points, but I don't think EV's are the way to "save" our future. Or to put a finer point on it, I don't think EVs are the solution to our environmental problems ATM. In fact, they may be making them worse. However, I do think there are places were EV is the best solution to the overall human transportation problem. Thanks for the comment.
@@bjm23vancity92- and the methods used to charge them are improving, by using methods which don’t pull stuff out of the ground (oil, natural gas, coal).
In places like Norway and many other countries with almost limitless hydropower or other countries similarly with solar EVs make a whole lot of sense. In places like Poland where most of the grid is based on fossil fuels you only get one of the biggest benefits of EVs which is no local pollution from an ICE.
I can appreciate the fact you are embracing the new technology. Stay Safe my friend! I had a lithium battery in my jump starter get too warm and it woke me up to that issue. But vape pens are more prevalent and getting them wet could be an everyday problem.
Saves the manufacturer time, and gives technicians more and more headaches. Gotta love it. Can’t wait till nobody remembers how to drive a manual or even build an ICE. I suspect in the future people will even forget how to wire inverters as they become more and more common. Gonna be straight electrical diagnosis and garbage maintenance items. People don’t even want to pay a few hundred for a new timing chain so i doubt they can afford a new inverter or battery pack. Wait till they figure out about vehicles shutting off for the police and the built in trackers..
9:25 back in the early 90’s This company Tekin. Made there Speed controller for Rc car. That did that except. They called it High frequency regenerating. It’s Tekin 411-p2 to be exact. Kinda reminds me of that.
The internet is full of used Tesla 18650 batteries from old modules, sold in bulk. The only thing I've heard of people using them for (big quantities) is DIY solar systems. After purchase, people test and restore the cells, with many getting scrapped. I'm sure there are people using them for other things too.
There's a good bit of money to be made, but I'm sure insurance companies will be asking about if you service EV's and adjusting your rates accordingly. Just like if they ask on your homeowner's if you have a dog and what breed it is. I'm glad you are bringing up this topic and discussing it but for me I'm not willing to risk my shop and tools, everything I've worked for over decades, to have it all burn because Musk is too busy trying to be in politics than run a company and its not like he runs a company well either nor is he an engineer in any way shape or form. For those of you who choose to work on these I'm guessing its going to be a specialty shop just like places that do Euro cars or rotarys. But for those who do EV you will have a completely different way of how the shop is built and set up. There will need to be isolations from other bays and ways to keep the toolboxes further back along with a rapid removal system should a fire occur. These are things the normal repair shop isn't designed for and it presents a danger to the techs who have to pull in an EV next to their toolbox and rack it just like a normal car. It isn't a normal car. I'll be hanging out with the rest of the dinosaurs helping people who want to keep ICE vehicles in service. If I was a young tech at a dealer I'd go for the EV certs heavy and start a profitable career, but I'm not.
Wow...very interesting. With the inverters being aprox 10K, I can see why new EVs are so expensive. I'm not an EV fan, but realize I will have to give in at some point in the future. Thanks for the video.
In most places in EU there are two different types of regulation which affects EV repair work: the vehicle or electrical code / law and employment law. Thus if you are self employed or privately doing stuff, often sky is the limit and you don't necessarily need any qualifications. However if you are employed, it is generally the employer's responsibility to make sure you are qualified to do the work, or otherwise they can be held liable. Obviously you'll still be liable if you do something wrong outside employment.
Your comment about the shoebox in a shoe store got me thinking, maybe similar to how some buildings have an external standpipe that first responders can hook a pumper up to and send water through the building sprinkler system, an EV battery pack could have a similar port that could be used to drench the modules from the inside, using water much more efficiently.
For module replacement - I know the guys in Ukraine do that. They buy some failed batteries for spare, try to revive client cars (there's a lot of points of failure in EV systems), and if the battery doesn't store the charge, replace failed banks with spare ones. Surely, cheap labor, different market. Not sure if that could work for the US.
My first EV job was replacing a cell section in a battery. 15 hours later I made 5.3 hours pay, and that was the last time I worked on high voltage for flat rate. I have done much work on EVs since, but I found a job that wasn't flat rate so I can take my time and be safe. Not only would I refuse to work on EV for flat rate, I would also refuse to work on them in a shop that is not climate controlled. Sweating into a HV battery is a very unpleasant experience, especially knowing the chances of an accident are much higher when sweaty hands are handling wet tools. Further, dripping salty water on electronics can't be good for anything. On the other hand, working cold has its own challenges, although being bundled up is better from a safety standpoint. Finally, familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds complacency, and complacent people get dead. I have disabled dozens of EVs so I can work on high voltage, and I don't even live/dead/live test anymore. It didn't arc when I unplugged it, it's dead. That's stupid dangerous behavior, and I am concerned for experienced EV techs who get complacent like I have, only they shortcut something more important than verifying it's dead. It's kind of like smoking while changing a fuel pump. You might get away with it 50 times, but it's gonna get you eventually.
I always enjoy the Digital Confection, even if it's not my Birthday! Battery fires are horrid, especially Lithium Ion batteries, because they are Self-Feeding. I learned to fight different types of fires, when I was in the US Navy (specifically on Submarines) and one of the worst fires on a submarine is a battery fire, because it becomes a Burning Metal fire; and the only way to really extinguish it is drown it in water. The US Navy nearly lost the USS Bonefish SS-582 because of a battery fire. So, regarding High Voltage and Death... It's not the voltage that kills you, it's the Amperage that kills you, and 1/10 of an Amp can kill you.
Jehugarcia has made a decent living from used batteries. On the battery fires the answer might be in finding a way to freeze the battery so the battery would lose its charge
BMW replaced the motor electronics and motor on my i3. It cost $20k..... By comparison, when Jag replaced the engine in my F-Pace (yeah, don't ask), it was $50k.... Speaking of fires, about a month ago, a container-size battery module caught fire when the truck rolled over near the port of LA. They closed the freeway for 24 hours before it was out..... There are a bunch of YT videos about - look for San Pedro battery fire
I always approach vehicles as to their purpose and how well they serve it, then factor in costs. So far my purposes for a work truck have not been met by any EV style truck. Specifically range and time to recharge issues. If that ever gets solved then fantastic, I would evaluate that vehicle for my purpose at that time Best of luck with the new EVenture
My concern is that fuel prices will reach an untenable point where we can no longer afford to drive our ICE vehicles, not that electric vehicles will be our only option. Thanks for the comment.
"You're welcome" 😂 Thanks, Eric 😅 My friend purchased Prius transmissions for nothing, disassembled them and sold copper few years back (in Russia). Because nobody needs these transmissions as they are, they don't break. But the copper inside them is a different story.
Eric, look up a company called Form Energy. They are working on an Iron-Air rust battery that is supposed to have crazy capacity. The technology was researched by Honda back in the 70s. They found the batteries to work, however, they didn't know how to mass produce them.
I work with fire crews and EV fires are a nightmare. Foam doesnt work because you simply can't get it inside the pack, and if you cant coat the cells foam is useless. Water only works because it cools everything enough to prevent flaming combustion but the moment you let up with the water, the fire will start back up again if all the energy hasnt been exhausted. They can re-ignite literally days later. If you can somehow submerge the battery for a period of time, that can work. But thats difficult to do with a whole car.
The problem of it re-igniting is caused by the pack not being full discharged. As long as there it still power in the pack there is chance of the now damaged pack shorting and starting a new thermal runaway.
@@ETCG1 It should have the same effect of freezing the cells and giving you a few minutes to move it and drop it in a dunk tank. It only works if you have direct access to the cells. Trying to instantly freeze a whole pack is not practical.
@@ETCG1 Probably but it has the same basic issue - the fire is only suppressed while the cells are cooled. Once you run out of liquid nitrogen and they heat back up, combustion will resume. Plus with the added complication of storing and transporting liquid nitrogen. That might be something to consider for like, a permanent fire suppression system built into a specialty structure.
You mentioned the vape batteries. I use them with a TP4056 battery management board to power very low load items like led headlamps that use button batteries, or television remotes. They recharge nicely for many cycles when they're taken care of. But I don't charge them when I'm not around, for sure.
As far as buying an ev myself we're not there yet, but it is the future of the industry. I remember seeing a hydrogen accord on top gear years ago and now companies are hyping it up. I know Honda's conservative but they should have pushed that
I’ve already started working on EV’s. Did you know that all of Tesla’s service manuals are online and available at no charge? Also you can buy 1 day or 1 month subscriptions to Tesla Toolbox 3? I’ve starting with simple things like replacing the Pyro fuses. You can charge a good rate and still make money over the dealership rate. If you’re a tech with some EE experience it’s pretty easy stuff. You just need to understand how to work around voltages that can be deadly. Some might need a cert. Also Eric those individual cells are called 18650 batteries. They are mass produced and ubiquitous among industry.
3:46 You are talking about 18650 battery cells, electronic cigarettes use them, laptops use them, power tools use them, exit lights use them, electric cars use them and the list goes on and on. A really versatile battery cell. Maybe I didn't start to claim that the batteries of electric cigarettes are particularly fire-sensitive and at the same time praise the batteries of power tools or electric cars because they both use the same type. :D
As I said in the video, that information came from Dirk. Dirk is one of the foremost experts on battery technology in the world. I can give you his email if you'd like to take it up with him.
This is the way it's going whether people like it or not, might as well embrace it. Gas vehicles aren't going to disappear in our lifetime though. It's just another thing they keep us fighting over in the culture war so we don't start a class war.
Talked to our local mechanic and he said that, in the case of Teslas, the service centers just do software and electrical/electronics and don't touch mechanicals (tires, brakes, bearings, suspension..etc). And that are the mechanical parts are actually derived from existing parts from Cadillacs. As far as construction goes, they don't find the cars to be well built.
@ Ok well I haven’t had my car long enough to make an appointment but I’m in several Tesla groups and people have posted their bills for repairs for these items.
It is the current flowing through the body that will stop the heart, It depends on the resistance of the body contact point as to how much current flows through it at the time. It is for this reason to typical residual current devices are set at 30mA and must disconnect in less than 40 milliseconds when tested (@5X rated) as 30mA is considered survivable. Voltage is not a parameter in setting the safety limit, current in mA is. The higher the voltage contacted the easier the current will flow given the same body resistance which is why the risk increases as voltage rises. No two people will have the same resistance. The latest "safety" cut off fitted for EV batteries (now around 800V) disconnect in a few seconds and are present to protect the vehicle electrical/electronic components in the first instance, not human life as the above criteria is not met therefore the "safety" part refers to the vehicle per design. Charging cells in series requires individual cell balancing to prevent overcharging of cells with a high internal resistance to prevent such a cell breaking down and becoming unstable and leading to a potential thermal runaway situation. 800V is not considered safe or acceptable for domestic dwellings that have little comparable risk of mechanical damage impact. These are some things to consider and evaluate along with a personal individual attitude to risk. Don't accept something is "safe" just because someone says it is.
@Ifitwerks I think the reason why it's called "safe" is because a human is able to drop off the wires. When the voltage is higher people are unable to detach themselves and require external help. Maybe I'm wrong?
@@sergeymatpoc I think you are referring to DC Voltage and AC Voltage as DC Voltage presents the greatest danger of being unable to break contact for the reason you mentioned, the word safe has no place with any electrical contact, hope this helps.
Current technology BEV's are like a Trojan horse, however future production solid state battery technology has the potential to provide safety and efficiency. Wait for technology to improve.
Interesting and informed perspective. It also seems to me a huge potential market would be portable EV test equipment. How will I know that junkyard inverter is still good before I pull it? And those battery modules, How can I tell without a multimeter and a spec sheet for each brand? Sounds to me like a wide-open market for any DIY Heathkit fans!
The part about inverters that I forgot to mention is that they use 6 transistors to operate. You could also just replace the transistors for about $20. 🤔
I had an Icecream cake. Replacing the full pack is wasteful, but from the manufacture POV, it is safer and all boxes are ticked. From a users POV, getting a module replaced is better some times it is just a faulty connection, or it could be just a cell, many have been fixed and still moving today.
Not sure about other EVs but after doing a lot of research the Teslas are pretty reliable. If you don't have any early build quality issues they tend to last pretty well. We got ours in August and we haven't noticed any flaws. My $70k chevy HD has more quality control issues.
One thing I have noticed about used modules now adays is the vin gets burned in and can’t be reprogrammed to a different vehicle. Ran into this just yesterday at work. Sucks but what do you do
Honda swaps are getting to the point where there are kits for electric motors, one of my gripes is making it easier to AWD swap without cutting the crap out of the thing, if electric could make this easier I'm interested. Also some of the engine bays look soooooo clean 👌 Just have to come up with some way to project a faux VTEC sound!! 😆🤣🙃
THIS was a VERY good video. There is a TON, an insane amount of business opportunity in this space. And an insane amount of money. The modern "stealership" model is going to DIE. NEW cars will be sold ONLINE, like Tesla. WHY? Because it's way CHEAPER - you're not giving a $100 in commissions to a salesman whose only job is to sucker you with add-ons - "nitrogen", "edge guards", "etching", etc. - that you DON'T need, will NEVER use and costs the "stealership" almost NOTHING. Just taking the non-value of the salesman, sales manager and "add-ons" out of the sales experience saves you ~$3000, or 10% on a $30K car. TEN PERCENT. That's enough that - no matter WHAT NADA does, no matter HOW MUCH they bribe Trump and Congress - they will be DONE FOR. And so they should be - $10 worth of plastic edge guards for $399 is simply outright legal theft and they're laughing at you.
An inverter, it does both conversions. I believe a rectifier just works in one direction, AC to DC. @.58 you're looking at a bridge rectifier that we made in class.
Great video-you really got me thinking! I completely agree that certification should be mandatory for anyone working on EVs, given the significant role electrical engineering plays in their design and maintenance. What are your thoughts on the cost of retooling for independent repair shops to service EVs? With the required investments in training, specialized tools, diagnostic computers, proprietary software, insurance, and more, it seems like the barrier to entry is becoming incredibly steep. Even with ICE vehicles, the complexity has skyrocketed, making it increasingly challenging for smaller shops to stay competitive. Some predict that many independent shops could be priced out of the market within the next decade. Reselling components might become a viable path for independent businesses, whether for ICE or EVs, but that shifts the focus from service to parts sales-essentially turning mechanics into parts distributors. A big shoutout to Professor Kelly for his sobering insights into the facilities, tooling, and expertise needed to service EVs effectively. For anyone interested in detailed reverse engineering and industry perspectives, Monro Live is another fantastic resource worth checking out.
Excellent question that I somewhat explored in this video. th-cam.com/video/8z2Euhw_gAo/w-d-xo.html Now that it's been a few years and I know more about EVs, I'm not really sure the direction that things will take. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 Viewing the six-year-old video and reading the comments, it’s clear how much the industry has evolved. Like in other service industries, such as electronics repair, those who’ve mastered replacing ball/grid chips with hot air stations have adapted by adding new tools and skills to their repertoire. Similarly, in automotive repair, shops that commit to learning and retooling for tomorrow’s challenges will survive, while others may choose to exit the industry. This progression mirrors broader changes in the transportation landscape. You’ve previously mentioned vehicle subscription services, which suggest a shift in vehicle ownership models. It’s possible that ownership will decline dramatically in favor of services offering access to vehicles on demand. For me, the increasing cost of vehicle ownership led to a deeper evaluation of travel . At this stage in life, I’ve found services like Uber, Lyft and other services, more practical, offering a cost-effective way to meet transportation needs without the burden of ownership.These platforms could represent the future of mobility for many, especially as ride-sharing and subscription services continue to gain traction. ( AI assisted with this response) Thanks again for your insight, looking forward to your next video.
A problem with buying broken/salvage EVs is if the high voltage charging electronics are not working and the high voltage battery is dead, then it is probably a really heavy vehicle to move around. Lucky to have the low rolling resistance tires.
Some of those videos where they dismantle a tesla, those modules are foam-cemented into a unified battery body, and they run this coolant lines throughout the pack between the columns - I don't think those can be replaced since it's all glued together. Are you thinking of doing electric conversion therapy for some ICE vehicles?
Yes, some cases are glued together and are not meant to be 'serviceable', but if it was put together, it can come apart with some persuasion. I'm open to experiment. Like I said in the video, I've always been an engineering nerd at heart. I just fixed cars because it seemed like the best way to apply that curiosity without attending a 4 year college.
Other income opportunities are tires and suspensions, which apparently have higher wear rates on EVs than on similarly-sized ICE vehicles due to battery weights and torque loads.
Brakes - in northern climates - need perhaps annual to every 2 year maintenance. Not because they wear out, but because they don’t get used as much as on an ICE car, and tend to get bound up.
LG Chem has battery module manufacturing in Chna. One of the 2 factories there began to run out of the materials to make the insulation placed between the anode and cathode within the individual cells. What was the typical solution? For an entire month, they used less insulation! Of course, this caused battery pack fires. That quality control ethic caused a billion-dollar recall of all EVs with these cells in the battery packs. If your in the market for an EV, do your research! Question everything. I have a 2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV.
Like I said in the video, I'm an engineering nerd. I also love learning about engineering failures. Guess what? Most of those failures were the result of design changes made by non engineers to save cost. Thanks for the comment.
Battery cells are actually much larger than AA. Most common types are 2170 which means 21mm diameter and 70mm length. Tesla is experimenting with 4680 cells now. Smaller the battery higher the charge discharge rate u can achieve. Things get much more complicated with the chemistry and ratio of different metals but that is for battery engineers to determine based on use case
I’ve got nothing against EVs. I have big problems with EV MANDATES! When the government tells me I have no choice but to drive an EV, that’s when I get mad. All of these governments telling us that there will be no new ICE sales after 2030 or 2035 are going to meet some extreme resistance from me and people like me. They can get bent, as far as I’m concerned.
There is no , or has ever been a federal USA mandate for you to drive an EV. Before my kids are dead. There will be no more oil for the world's transportation needs. I can drive my ev 37 miles on $1.20 worth of electricity. And if I had off peak. It would be about $0.33 to drive 37 miles. I charge while I sleep. And I can heat my car to a toasty 72 deg while in the garage. Your radio is fake sound. Your engine exhaust sound is manipulated by engineers tuning the exhaust pipes and cats and mufflers and resonators. Go to the 17:40 mark and watch an electric pickup truck smoke a Dodge Ram commings v5.7 diesel . Oh I forgot to mention. The electric pickup up is towing 8500 pounds. th-cam.com/video/Zce-wC__kkU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=rLnyaJzEMcW33TBz
!00 years ago gasoline was totally different mostly low octane white paraffin today called Colmans .Take the lid of the fuel tank and it mad gas fumes very quickly and explosion from spark source and you got fire .modern fuels are high octane like Toulen and other fire resistant fule types very stable and hard to ignite sorta more like normal paraffin mixed with less than 25% type fuels like white parrifin colmans fuel .Result much harder to ignite
![[BEFORE vs AFTER] Incredibox Sprunki - Freaky Song](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xiZLkGWew6s/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm a level 3 EV tech in Norway, and batteries catching on fire by themselves is extremely rare. Even in collisions it's quite rare.
You can't put out a battery fire, but you can control it by cooling it (with water).
We replace single modules every day. When you replace them you have to balance the voltage to match the old modules. Then you won't overload any of them.
Thank you! I was very confused as to why a supposed expert on EVs would claim that it isn't possible to replace only a single module with a new one. That is why battery balancing procedures exist! Battery packs are repaired all the time that way with no ill effects. If this Dirk guy is the best the US has to offer, well, Eric is definitely correct that we are wayyy behind Europe.
@@applehuggerIt can be true for some batteries that module swapping is not a permanent fix. It is entirely dependent on battery and BMS architecture.
On classic Tesla batrery packs when doing module swaps it is bound to happen where the swapped modules will always drift at a different rate and after a couple of years the BMS can no longer keep up with the balancing of the swapped module. Then you get the main BMS saying no as the cells are too far away from each other and you are back to square one.
Hence the only long lasting solutions are to cut fuses from the individual cells for all modules if you have one bad cell OR drill out the one bad cell from the module and replace it with a sufficiently cycled same kind of cell. With this method you are not replacing too much of the battery module's capacity for the BMS to not be able to balance the module in the future.
It has a BMS for that are you doing Toyota Prius, the days for balancing are gone, the module will do that
Sure you can put them out but it takes 10x the amount of water. They're a nightmare.
@@applehugger hang out with model plane and model boat and cars guys that use LI ION and see devised all these solutions like balance cells packs years ago
it feels like your energy is in a better place now.
I recall your early videos and you weren't always in a great place but persevered.
I hope for your continued growth, joy, and success in life.
Thanks, Eric. It's great to hear this from you. So many of us EV owners can't talk to 'car guys' or mechanics without stirring up some negative feelings one way or another. I've owned loud and fast cars that run on leaded 100 and E85 for years. I've printed a lot of speeding tickets. I probably still have a larger left leg from all the clutch work. I've turned wrenches, bled, and done some sketchy shit on cars. Lots of rubber left in the burnout box, lots of money left on the dyno. I get it. I consider myself a 'car guy'. But I lose that when talking to other 'car guys'.
I'm on my second EV. I didn't get into one for green reasons, to make a 'statement', or anything like that. I got into it because when gas is $5/gallon, (my first) EV cost as much to drive as a gas car getting 120 MPG. Cheeeap. My parking spot is also my gas station. I plug it into my dryer outlet when I want to charge quick or just a 120V outlet when I just need to make up for the commute. My second EV is a Kia. And guess what, it hauls ass. With a full charge, this thing runs a low to mid 11 sec quarter mile around 120. 60 MPH comes in just over 3 seconds and it'll top out around 160. Right from the factory. And it only cost about as much as a fully spec'd out Rav4. The battery will take up to 200,000 watts of 800V power to charge from 20-80% in about 15 minutes on a road trip. It has AWD. I love it. It lacks soul, yes. And I do miss rowing through the gears. It's a heavy pig in the corners. But man, it still puts a hell of a smile on my face.
You're dead on with following the money. MECHANICS. Look, nobody other than stealerships wants to touch these things. They're scared shitless of them. They still have ball joints, bearings, steering racks, A/C condensers, brakes, and 12V electrical systems. In many ways these things are the same cars you wrench on all day long. They're also wicked expensive to work on, as Eric pointed out. But if you can undercut the dealership on labor, which most independent shops do normally, you will have customers lined up. If you can source refurb or used parts, you're getting your customers a better deal than they usually get. Just put a sign out front saying you work on EVs and your phone will ring. I miss my local independent. I wish they would work on my car. But I know when this lease is up I'm not going to buy it because I'll be stuck taking it to the dealership for the inevitable maintenance.
Also, if you sell tires, they print money. EVs are heavy as all hell, have gobs of torque, and take expensive tires. My summer tire set is $1,600 at the discount shop. I don't know what their margins are, but you fine folks need to get a piece of that action. Seriously. Take our money.
Great comment and true on all points. I miss the independent shop I trusted my VW to and am not looking forward to relying on Volvo for my maintenance. There is so much that can be done outside of the battery and electric motors and I feel shops are really missing out on this.
Thank you VERY much for that comment and insight.
I lose it when talking to most dumb people in general, regardless of their interests..
One of the fire suppression methods currently being researched that I really like involves setting an industry standard interface for a fire suppression device that would hook to a saline tank carried by firefighters. It takes a ludicrous amount of saline to begin suppressing a battery fire, and really you're not suppressing the fire so much as forcing a controlled rapid release of remaining energy within the battery's chemistry, but the fact that there's talk of an industry-wide standard is encouraging!
I got ev certified though nissan a while back now and i dont regret it at all, making bank on it and really i find them easier to work on then ice vehicles. I like both btw.
I've worked with battery banks for a long time. The big danger with an open battery pack is the high voltage and high current DC is alway present. You cannot turn off a battery. If you short something in a open pack it will melt it or outright vaporize what ever you shorted. Alway insulated tools, always gloves and no distractions. It is pretty much like working on live electrical panel, something electricians hate doing. Also DC arcs are hard to break 400 volts can pull a 1 foot arc. I'm not afraid to work batteries I just respect the battery and do everything to avoid mistakes.
Yup, always take precautions just like when working on the fuel system on a combustion vehicle.
I learned in the class that some of the contacts used in EVs are sealed with hydrogen to help mitigate that arc you mentioned. When the hydrogen leaks out, that contact, and possibly the entire system, is toast. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 Yes, nitrogen, hydrogen or SF6. Though using hydrogen puzzles me, good thing I don't design contactors.
EEEEKKKK one foot size ARC. Me thinks best not to wear a waist belt with metal in it could ARC across to your mid section and burn your tender parts
@@dannelson6980 It did me too, but hydrogen without o2 is inert and plentiful, which I suppose is why they use it.
I recently started an independent EV repair shop in Portland Oregon called WattWorks (and worked at a shop in the San Diego area for about 7 years before moving back up here). I work on a little bit of everything from very common cars like the Nissan LEAF, and the various Tesla models, to low volume "compliance cars" like Smarts and Fiat 500es. Though my specialties tend to lie in the Tesla powered cars (including the Toyota RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED, both built under partnerships with Tesla).
In my time at QC Charge in San Diego, we were one of the earliest pioneers in rebuilding the Tesla "Large Drive Unit", which is prone to a few different failure modes, though the biggest one these days is coolant intrusion through leaking rotor seals. That remains one of my big specialties at my new shop, but besides that, I also do all sort of other HV system and powertrain related repairs, including repairs to the battery packs.
By the way, my daily driver is a 9 year old Tesla Model S with over 465k miles and counting!
You subscribe to EVClinic? Do you do module swaps in classic Teslas?
I would love to visit you and your shop someday.
@@rkan2 Module swaps are not generally considered to be a "long term viable repair" on Teslas, mainly because the battery management system (BMS) is very sensitive to even the slightest differences in capacity. Even Tesla themselves stopped doing module swapping on their in house remanufactured packs a couple years ago, because they typically didn't last more than 2 years before falling out of balance. Some other EVs are a lot less sensitive to these issues, or have a BMS that can perform heavier balancing to keep things in check.
All that said, particularly on the "classic" Tesla models, a lot of the battery related issues aren't caused by cell failures, but rather moisture intrusion into the battery pack, which can lead to increased humidity and condensation, which creates corrosion in certain areas. On V1.5 packs, this condensation has a tendency to collect on a certain point on the battery monitoring broads on each module, which tends to rot out two of the surface mount capacitors (C26 and C27), which leads to incorrect voltage readings. Additionally, degraded HV isolation can be another issue associated with moisture intrusion. Generally speaking, these issues are usually fixable, as long as there isn't corrosion on the cells themselves.
On V2 and up packs, the corrosion issues with the BMS electronics was largely fixed due to an updated design, and they tend to be better sealed, but they can still suffer from moisture intrusion as well. However, there have been a number of cases of separated wire bonds (they connect to the BMS for cell voltage measurements and balancing), which usually seems to coincide with vehicles that have been involved in accidents, but usually not until months or even a year later.
@@AlexEVRepair Yeah, I am aware, hence you would've been saved from writing if you noted EVClinic ;)
@@AlexEVRepair EEEEKKK moisture intrusion hard to stop if you ever go across a car park or road with one inch of ware on it
My great grandfather owned a hardware store and was Fire Chief in Weston Mass. When gasoline became available in the early 1900's it was stored in cans in the creek... Glad you are back... Stay safe, Tim in Texas
about !00 years ago gasoline was totally different mostly low octane white paraffin today called Colmans .Take the lid of the fuel tank and it mad gas fumes very quickly and explosion from spark source and you got fire .modern fuels are high octane like Toulen and other fire resistant fule types very stable and hard to ignite sorta more like normal paraffin mixed with less than 25% type fuels like white parrifin colmans fuel .Result much harder to ignite .good thinking in 1900 store that real flamable fuel in a creek or unused water pond .Pity we can do that with Li ION
Finally, a level-headed take. I do tires primarily on EVs and it's a wonderful business to be in right now.
You're also getting a lot of EV-owning subscribers to finally comment and engage with this video. :-)
I am a mechanic. I work on a lot of stuff, from industrial deisle to some of the new GDI cars. I love and welcome the electric age of cars, and i do feel they may be the answer, but we have at least 50 years to perfect the tech, like we did with the internal combustion engines. Love the channel Eric, been a fan for years, and I'm glad you're back!
@Onemoretake01 May be the answer to what?
@steve8803 more efficient transportation with either less or no fossil fuel.
@@Onemoretake01 Definitely not. It's actually worse!
Impedence and load characteristic matching when replacing battery cells is also a skill that has application in certain naval settings.
Your wisdom and temperament cause me to listen more and learn a lot. Thank you.
A cheap Chinese vape pen battery that my son had caught our house on fire 🔥. I can attest to thier danger first hand...
Glad to see you back…
I like the “Wizard Vibe”
My first ever EV repair was a battery on a 2017 Prius C. 4 hours later i made $350 for that job. There is good coin in it and most community colleges should be updating there curricululms for EV's, i know mine did. It was very helpful and has been beneficial in my time as a technician
As always I love your attitude Eric! Tech is tech and cars are cars, period.
Tbh. I really never got or get the general antipathy towards new tech, like EVs. Why do boatloads of people feel the need to choose sides? It doesn't have to be either/or. There aren't any camps; It's all in your head! Intelligent peope adapt. No one will blame you for being an old school petrol head and be inspired by new tech like EVs at the same time. Rest assured. Just regard it as a nice opportunity to learn about new tech, be enlightened and enhance your skill set, hell maybe even make a few extra bucks on the side while doing so ;-)
Rivian has done a good job in the EV market. Tesla is an embarrassment. They tried to come out with “something new” but they had horrible quality control issues that don’t exist on any other vehicle such as the hoods flying off going down the highway.
I think this has caused a lot of negative perception.
As a mechanic, EV’s are a nightmare because the only things left to work on are repetitive, non rewarding jobs, the most likely will always be some sort of electrical fault within the wiring harnesses.
Nobody wants to spend all day doing brakes and ball joints, it’s like living in hell.
Great vid, Eric! And excellent description of the Tech levels and what training and knowledge each entail! SAFETY is so much more critical working on an EV, not just lid off battery module work but any EV components.
Gotta keep up with the times. Remember when there were 8 track repairmen? Yeah not needed anymore. Opportunities are out there!
There won't be any keeping up with the times when it comes to person transportation, they don't want us owning/traveling period.
# agenda 2030, research the WEF if you have no clue.
I’m level 2 certified on EV’s in the US there actually is a level 3 here as well and it’s for working on live circuits IE if the battery contact switch gets arc welded together those are the guys who can disconnect it. There are very few of those in the US I’m currently working with Freightliner to obtain mine. I’m a diesel tech by trade but the company I service has been acquiring a few EV tractors so will be nice to have. After having attended all these classes though I can attest that they are very safe to own and operate.
If you have an ev battery module that is slightly different than the rest, sometimes you can slowly drain all cells down and recharge to level it out. It takes days to do it properly, but it has worked for me.
Great video. I live in Central Ohio and have driven EVs for the past 8 years. My first one was a Ford Focus Electric and it served me well. However, the one major issue with that car was the coolant hoses that ran through the battery pack would eventually leak. This never caused a fire, but it did put the EV system into fail safe mode and the car would basically brick.
I asked around to numerous shops to see if I could get someone to open up the HV battery and check/reinforce the coolant hoses. Literally nobody would touch the car. The dealer would replace the battery if it failed (for $$$$) but wouldn't otherwise work on it.
It's understandable that shops were hesitant, since there is clear danger if you don't know what you're doing. But they were also basically saying no to earning more revenue because they didn't have the time or motivation to learn a new skill.
EVs are a HUGE opportunity for younger folks who aren't afraid to learn new things or set in their ways about how things "should" be.
The only thing you would learn if you added EV’s to your resume is electrical diagnosis on interior wiring.
Batteries, inverters, three-phase motors, they have all been around a long time.
I feel the same way with EV, and it's an exciting time to live to have innovation in the car industry.
but no support for cars, or lack there of.
@@peter-pg5ycExactly, these EV'S are really about getting us all off the roads, restricted to 15 minute cities at least.
@@steveclark..exactly, humanity has been in thousands of years of enslavement until our lord and savior Henry Ford liberated us with the model T. Whatever sense of control you think the “system” is trying to get they already have for hundreds of years.
Eric The Beard Guy! Thank you for this great intro/overview on EV servicing. Great to see you back in frame. Cheers!
Yep been into them for years. Been to many classes on EV's. Professor John Kelly at Weber university does a great job explaining Ev's on his channel. Just love the technology.
👀
You still a full time mechanic?
@@TheRealEricO looky lou!
By coincidence, just yesterday I saw the best video that I've ever seen on the problem with ev's. It's titled: "The unpopular truth about electric vehicles", uploaded by Hillsdale college. Definitely worth a watch.
Whats the summary? We have a Tesla and it seems to do what we need an they don't seem to have a lot of issues.
You don't need much water to put out a battery fire. But you do need a way to deliver that water directly INSIDE the battery housing under enough pressure to overcome any outgassing pressure that may be going on. The fancy way of doing so is using a waterjet lance. The low-tech version is to use a hollow spike and pound it into the battery while running water through it.
You need three things for a fire: fuel, oxidizer and HEAT. Quenching the battery cells by injecting water inside the battery pack removes the heat in a few minutes using about one gallon of water per kWh.
I don't know much about these but I do know that some of the most dramatic explosions happen when elemental lithium or sodium is exposed to water. Presumably the lithium is bonded to something else to make it more stable?
I also thought of something, would liquid nitrogen work? I'm sure that would be expensive, but I was wondering.
@@spelunkerd There is little exposed elemental lithium in a lithium battery. It is either in oxidized form at the cathode, in lithium salt ion form while passing through the electrolyte or embedded in anode graphite.
If you ripped the anode from a charged battery and dunked it in water, you would get a slow reaction since water molecules are too large to reach lithium atoms beyond the graphite's outer surface.
The problem with NMC/NCA batteries is not the lithium. It is the electrolyte and separator's decomposition generating lots of oxydants during thermal runaway, hence the difficulty in snuffing them out through conventional means. You cannot put out a self-oxidizing fire by cutting the air supply when it doesn't need to keep going.
LFP batteries need to get about 20C hotter before that happens and decomposition requires ~4X as much heat, making thermal runaway harder to trigger, harder to sustain and much slower. When LFP packs go thermal, they are far less exciting to watch, looking almost like a regular fire log.
@@ETCG1 Fire trucks already have lots of specialized equipment to deal with the most common fire and rescue situations. Having a 100L dewar flask filled with a cryogenic hazard that needs to get topped up at least once a week due to boil-off and all of the related equipment including personal protection wouldn't be practical.
Nitrogen also displaces oxygen and would pose an asphyxiation hazard for people in the immediate area who don't have an oxygen mask while liquid nitrogen tanks are being dumped into the battery.
The water injection spike on the other hand is just a fire hose attachment. Hang a pair (EV-on-EV action where both batteries go thermal) next to the axes used to drive them in. Can be added to the whole fleet for ~$100 per truck.
@@teardowndan5364- also much better for the consumer who likes to “fill it up” everyday, since charging to 100% daily is an ok practice.
HOLY SHIT. ETC!
Glad to see you are well, I love your content
Imagine the insurance on a premises that stores those battery units, youd need serious cover.
Very interesting, thanks Eric 🙂
I'm going to replace my Tesla model S failed module with one from a similar vehicle and year/mfg. Glad to see you are at least trying to talk bout it, some others are just thought stopping themselves into an anger spiral.
from what I've heard is fire departments are filling a large dumpster or dump truck with water and dropping in. Other departments are burying the cars in sand when the batteries are in thermal over load.
Correct, but most fire departments are ill prepared for battery fires, it comes to private contractors to do the post mortem that informs future design and safety improvements.
Hi Eric, long term watcher from Vancouver BC 🇨🇦. Congrats to you for being open minded to explore the EV industry and the potential. My wife drives a Tesla and I love my ice engine cars so have real life experience and knowledge of both. Fires from EV's are extremely rare and the stats show that. The EV disruption is happening, and one can stick their head in the sand and be an EV hater or be mature enough to learn new innovations and appreciate the engineering technology. Facts; The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world in 2023. YTD in 2024, its No 2 right behind the Toyota Rav and could be No 1 again.
All great points, but I don't think EV's are the way to "save" our future. Or to put a finer point on it, I don't think EVs are the solution to our environmental problems ATM. In fact, they may be making them worse. However, I do think there are places were EV is the best solution to the overall human transportation problem. Thanks for the comment.
@ Agree Eric, and I too don't see EV's as as solution to environment problems. However they do help and see them as a co-existing with other options.
@@bjm23vancity92- and the methods used to charge them are improving, by using methods which don’t pull stuff out of the ground (oil, natural gas, coal).
In places like Norway and many other countries with almost limitless hydropower or other countries similarly with solar EVs make a whole lot of sense. In places like Poland where most of the grid is based on fossil fuels you only get one of the biggest benefits of EVs which is no local pollution from an ICE.
Brake dust, tires. Still create local pollution and a lot at that. Look at studies of particulate. Brake dust is a huge contributor. Ev’s are heavy.
Thanks for the knowledge.
I can appreciate the fact you are embracing the new technology. Stay Safe my friend! I had a lithium battery in my jump starter get too warm and it woke me up to that issue. But vape pens are more prevalent and getting them wet could be an everyday problem.
Thank you sir !!!
Very thought provoking! Another topic to cover would be pros and cons of EV vs Hybrid vehicles.
Saves the manufacturer time, and gives technicians more and more headaches. Gotta love it. Can’t wait till nobody remembers how to drive a manual or even build an ICE.
I suspect in the future people will even forget how to wire inverters as they become more and more common.
Gonna be straight electrical diagnosis and garbage maintenance items.
People don’t even want to pay a few hundred for a new timing chain so i doubt they can afford a new inverter or battery pack.
Wait till they figure out about vehicles shutting off for the police and the built in trackers..
Wow! Interesting video, learned something new today!
So good to see these on my notifications!!
"level 3" tech here too 😊
9:25 back in the early 90’s This company Tekin. Made there Speed controller for Rc car. That did that except. They called it High frequency regenerating. It’s Tekin 411-p2 to be exact. Kinda reminds me of that.
Very informative video. Thank you.
Fantastic information. Merry Christmas
The internet is full of used Tesla 18650 batteries from old modules, sold in bulk. The only thing I've heard of people using them for (big quantities) is DIY solar systems. After purchase, people test and restore the cells, with many getting scrapped. I'm sure there are people using them for other things too.
There's a good bit of money to be made, but I'm sure insurance companies will be asking about if you service EV's and adjusting your rates accordingly. Just like if they ask on your homeowner's if you have a dog and what breed it is. I'm glad you are bringing up this topic and discussing it but for me I'm not willing to risk my shop and tools, everything I've worked for over decades, to have it all burn because Musk is too busy trying to be in politics than run a company and its not like he runs a company well either nor is he an engineer in any way shape or form.
For those of you who choose to work on these I'm guessing its going to be a specialty shop just like places that do Euro cars or rotarys. But for those who do EV you will have a completely different way of how the shop is built and set up. There will need to be isolations from other bays and ways to keep the toolboxes further back along with a rapid removal system should a fire occur. These are things the normal repair shop isn't designed for and it presents a danger to the techs who have to pull in an EV next to their toolbox and rack it just like a normal car. It isn't a normal car.
I'll be hanging out with the rest of the dinosaurs helping people who want to keep ICE vehicles in service. If I was a young tech at a dealer I'd go for the EV certs heavy and start a profitable career, but I'm not.
I really appreciate that insight, thank you for taking the time to comment.
Wow...very interesting. With the inverters being aprox 10K, I can see why new EVs are so expensive. I'm not an EV fan, but realize I will have to give in at some point in the future. Thanks for the video.
Etcg is a real wizard now
In most places in EU there are two different types of regulation which affects EV repair work: the vehicle or electrical code / law and employment law.
Thus if you are self employed or privately doing stuff, often sky is the limit and you don't necessarily need any qualifications. However if you are employed, it is generally the employer's responsibility to make sure you are qualified to do the work, or otherwise they can be held liable.
Obviously you'll still be liable if you do something wrong outside employment.
Your comment about the shoebox in a shoe store got me thinking, maybe similar to how some buildings have an external standpipe that first responders can hook a pumper up to and send water through the building sprinkler system, an EV battery pack could have a similar port that could be used to drench the modules from the inside, using water much more efficiently.
Or - to create a vacuum so the fire inside the battery has no oxygen?
Battery fires don't need O2 to burn.
For module replacement - I know the guys in Ukraine do that. They buy some failed batteries for spare, try to revive client cars (there's a lot of points of failure in EV systems), and if the battery doesn't store the charge, replace failed banks with spare ones.
Surely, cheap labor, different market. Not sure if that could work for the US.
My first EV job was replacing a cell section in a battery. 15 hours later I made 5.3 hours pay, and that was the last time I worked on high voltage for flat rate. I have done much work on EVs since, but I found a job that wasn't flat rate so I can take my time and be safe.
Not only would I refuse to work on EV for flat rate, I would also refuse to work on them in a shop that is not climate controlled. Sweating into a HV battery is a very unpleasant experience, especially knowing the chances of an accident are much higher when sweaty hands are handling wet tools. Further, dripping salty water on electronics can't be good for anything. On the other hand, working cold has its own challenges, although being bundled up is better from a safety standpoint.
Finally, familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds complacency, and complacent people get dead. I have disabled dozens of EVs so I can work on high voltage, and I don't even live/dead/live test anymore. It didn't arc when I unplugged it, it's dead. That's stupid dangerous behavior, and I am concerned for experienced EV techs who get complacent like I have, only they shortcut something more important than verifying it's dead. It's kind of like smoking while changing a fuel pump. You might get away with it 50 times, but it's gonna get you eventually.
I think that is a neat idea Eric.
I always enjoy the Digital Confection, even if it's not my Birthday! Battery fires are horrid, especially Lithium Ion batteries, because they are Self-Feeding. I learned to fight different types of fires, when I was in the US Navy (specifically on Submarines) and one of the worst fires on a submarine is a battery fire, because it becomes a Burning Metal fire; and the only way to really extinguish it is drown it in water. The US Navy nearly lost the USS Bonefish SS-582 because of a battery fire. So, regarding High Voltage and Death... It's not the voltage that kills you, it's the Amperage that kills you, and 1/10 of an Amp can kill you.
Eric, good info thanks
Jehugarcia has made a decent living from used batteries. On the battery fires the answer might be in finding a way to freeze the battery so the battery would lose its charge
BMW replaced the motor electronics and motor on my i3. It cost $20k..... By comparison, when Jag replaced the engine in my F-Pace (yeah, don't ask), it was $50k.... Speaking of fires, about a month ago, a container-size battery module caught fire when the truck rolled over near the port of LA. They closed the freeway for 24 hours before it was out..... There are a bunch of YT videos about - look for San Pedro battery fire
The guy I mentioned in the video, Dirk Fuchs, was who they called to help investigate that fire.
I always approach vehicles as to their purpose and how well they serve it, then factor in costs. So far my purposes for a work truck have not been met by any EV style truck. Specifically range and time to recharge issues. If that ever gets solved then fantastic, I would evaluate that vehicle for my purpose at that time Best of luck with the new EVenture
My concern is that fuel prices will reach an untenable point where we can no longer afford to drive our ICE vehicles, not that electric vehicles will be our only option. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1Anybody else holding out for the Jetson Model 1
"You're welcome" 😂
Thanks, Eric 😅
My friend purchased Prius transmissions for nothing, disassembled them and sold copper few years back (in Russia). Because nobody needs these transmissions as they are, they don't break. But the copper inside them is a different story.
Eric, look up a company called Form Energy. They are working on an Iron-Air rust battery that is supposed to have crazy capacity. The technology was researched by Honda back in the 70s. They found the batteries to work, however, they didn't know how to mass produce them.
I work with fire crews and EV fires are a nightmare. Foam doesnt work because you simply can't get it inside the pack, and if you cant coat the cells foam is useless. Water only works because it cools everything enough to prevent flaming combustion but the moment you let up with the water, the fire will start back up again if all the energy hasnt been exhausted. They can re-ignite literally days later.
If you can somehow submerge the battery for a period of time, that can work. But thats difficult to do with a whole car.
The problem of it re-igniting is caused by the pack not being full discharged. As long as there it still power in the pack there is chance of the now damaged pack shorting and starting a new thermal runaway.
I was wondering if liquid nitrogen could be used.
@@ETCG1 It should have the same effect of freezing the cells and giving you a few minutes to move it and drop it in a dunk tank. It only works if you have direct access to the cells. Trying to instantly freeze a whole pack is not practical.
@@ETCG1 Probably but it has the same basic issue - the fire is only suppressed while the cells are cooled. Once you run out of liquid nitrogen and they heat back up, combustion will resume. Plus with the added complication of storing and transporting liquid nitrogen.
That might be something to consider for like, a permanent fire suppression system built into a specialty structure.
My town just bought three special blankets/bags to prevent the smoke from getting everywhere. Evidently the smoke from an EV fire is toxic.
Anytime you burn a car, any car, it's toxic. Think of all the plastic, rubber, and other junk that shouldn't be burned. thanks for the comment.
You mentioned the vape batteries. I use them with a TP4056 battery management board to power very low load items like led headlamps that use button batteries, or television remotes.
They recharge nicely for many cycles when they're taken care of.
But I don't charge them when I'm not around, for sure.
Great info. Thanks.
Very interesting Eric I enjoy watching your videos watching from South Africa
As far as buying an ev myself we're not there yet, but it is the future of the industry. I remember seeing a hydrogen accord on top gear years ago and now companies are hyping it up. I know Honda's conservative but they should have pushed that
I’ve already started working on EV’s. Did you know that all of Tesla’s service manuals are online and available at no charge? Also you can buy 1 day or 1 month subscriptions to Tesla Toolbox 3? I’ve starting with simple things like replacing the Pyro fuses. You can charge a good rate and still make money over the dealership rate. If you’re a tech with some EE experience it’s pretty easy stuff. You just need to understand how to work around voltages that can be deadly. Some might need a cert.
Also Eric those individual cells are called 18650 batteries. They are mass produced and ubiquitous among industry.
3:46 You are talking about 18650 battery cells, electronic cigarettes use them, laptops use them, power tools use them, exit lights use them, electric cars use them and the list goes on and on. A really versatile battery cell. Maybe I didn't start to claim that the batteries of electric cigarettes are particularly fire-sensitive and at the same time praise the batteries of power tools or electric cars because they both use the same type. :D
As I said in the video, that information came from Dirk. Dirk is one of the foremost experts on battery technology in the world. I can give you his email if you'd like to take it up with him.
Even more for finding a better way to put their fire out.
Actraining academy needs to update their training schedule as there are classes listed for 2023.
This is the way it's going whether people like it or not, might as well embrace it. Gas vehicles aren't going to disappear in our lifetime though. It's just another thing they keep us fighting over in the culture war so we don't start a class war.
Talked to our local mechanic and he said that, in the case of Teslas, the service centers just do software and electrical/electronics and don't touch mechanicals (tires, brakes, bearings, suspension..etc). And that are the mechanical parts are actually derived from existing parts from Cadillacs. As far as construction goes, they don't find the cars to be well built.
Tesla service centers replace parts like a control arm and do tire installs and rotations. Not sure where you got that info.
@Tool0GT92 A reliable source.
@ Ok well I haven’t had my car long enough to make an appointment but I’m in several Tesla groups and people have posted their bills for repairs for these items.
@Tool0GT92 Tesla outsources the mechanicals to traditional garages, gets the car back, then bills you.
Regarding "killing voltage" - I guess that's 50 dc and 120 ac. I used to know that back in the day, but maybe I'm wrong.
I think so , or maybe a little more dc. That's why the Cybertruck has a 48V chassis wiring system; it's the upper limit on safety.
It is not strictly about voltage regardless.
It is the current flowing through the body that will stop the heart, It depends on the resistance of the body contact point as to how much current flows through it at the time. It is for this reason to typical residual current devices are set at 30mA and must disconnect in less than 40 milliseconds when tested (@5X rated) as 30mA is considered survivable.
Voltage is not a parameter in setting the safety limit, current in mA is.
The higher the voltage contacted the easier the current will flow given the same body resistance which is why the risk increases as voltage rises.
No two people will have the same resistance.
The latest "safety" cut off fitted for EV batteries (now around 800V) disconnect in a few seconds and are present to protect the vehicle electrical/electronic components in the first instance, not human life as the above criteria is not met therefore the "safety" part refers to the vehicle per design.
Charging cells in series requires individual cell balancing to prevent overcharging of cells with a high internal resistance to prevent such a cell breaking down and becoming unstable and leading to a potential thermal runaway situation.
800V is not considered safe or acceptable for domestic dwellings that have little comparable risk of mechanical damage impact.
These are some things to consider and evaluate along with a personal individual attitude to risk.
Don't accept something is "safe" just because someone says it is.
@Ifitwerks I think the reason why it's called "safe" is because a human is able to drop off the wires. When the voltage is higher people are unable to detach themselves and require external help.
Maybe I'm wrong?
@@sergeymatpoc I think you are referring to DC Voltage and AC Voltage as DC Voltage presents the greatest danger of being unable to break contact for the reason you mentioned, the word safe has no place with any electrical contact, hope this helps.
As a Tech EV is the way to go, less back breaking more brain picking at times but theyre easier than engine cars to work on and Diag
If you're into engineering you should love Tesla!
Love the vehicle, or the fact that it's an American vehicle, not so fond of the man. th-cam.com/video/KKkHFXmEmic/w-d-xo.html
Current technology BEV's are like a Trojan horse, however future production solid state battery technology has the potential to provide safety and efficiency. Wait for technology to improve.
And this is the better way 😮
Interesting and informed perspective. It also seems to me a huge potential market would be portable EV test equipment. How will I know that junkyard inverter is still good before I pull it? And those battery modules, How can I tell without a multimeter and a spec sheet for each brand? Sounds to me like a wide-open market for any DIY Heathkit fans!
The part about inverters that I forgot to mention is that they use 6 transistors to operate. You could also just replace the transistors for about $20. 🤔
I had an Icecream cake.
Replacing the full pack is wasteful, but from the manufacture POV, it is safer and all boxes are ticked.
From a users POV, getting a module replaced is better some times it is just a faulty connection, or it could be just a cell, many have been fixed and still moving today.
Not sure about other EVs but after doing a lot of research the Teslas are pretty reliable. If you don't have any early build quality issues they tend to last pretty well. We got ours in August and we haven't noticed any flaws. My $70k chevy HD has more quality control issues.
One thing I have noticed about used modules now adays is the vin gets burned in and can’t be reprogrammed to a different vehicle. Ran into this just yesterday at work. Sucks but what do you do
I'm the same way. I need to know how everything works lol. Everything.
Honda swaps are getting to the point where there are kits for electric motors, one of my gripes is making it easier to AWD swap without cutting the crap out of the thing, if electric could make this easier I'm interested. Also some of the engine bays look soooooo clean 👌 Just have to come up with some way to project a faux VTEC sound!! 😆🤣🙃
Great video
Great videos, Mom
THIS was a VERY good video.
There is a TON, an insane amount of business opportunity in this space. And an insane amount of money. The modern "stealership" model is going to DIE.
NEW cars will be sold ONLINE, like Tesla. WHY? Because it's way CHEAPER - you're not giving a $100 in commissions to a salesman whose only job is to sucker you with add-ons - "nitrogen", "edge guards", "etching", etc. - that you DON'T need, will NEVER use and costs the "stealership" almost NOTHING. Just taking the non-value of the salesman, sales manager and "add-ons" out of the sales experience saves you ~$3000, or 10% on a $30K car. TEN PERCENT. That's enough that - no matter WHAT NADA does, no matter HOW MUCH they bribe Trump and Congress - they will be DONE FOR. And so they should be - $10 worth of plastic edge guards for $399 is simply outright legal theft and they're laughing at you.
@3:10: An inverter or a rectifier?
An inverter, it does both conversions. I believe a rectifier just works in one direction, AC to DC. @.58 you're looking at a bridge rectifier that we made in class.
Great video-you really got me thinking! I completely agree that certification should be mandatory for anyone working on EVs, given the significant role electrical engineering plays in their design and maintenance.
What are your thoughts on the cost of retooling for independent repair shops to service EVs? With the required investments in training, specialized tools, diagnostic computers, proprietary software, insurance, and more, it seems like the barrier to entry is becoming incredibly steep. Even with ICE vehicles, the complexity has skyrocketed, making it increasingly challenging for smaller shops to stay competitive. Some predict that many independent shops could be priced out of the market within the next decade.
Reselling components might become a viable path for independent businesses, whether for ICE or EVs, but that shifts the focus from service to parts sales-essentially turning mechanics into parts distributors.
A big shoutout to Professor Kelly for his sobering insights into the facilities, tooling, and expertise needed to service EVs effectively. For anyone interested in detailed reverse engineering and industry perspectives, Monro Live is another fantastic resource worth checking out.
Excellent question that I somewhat explored in this video. th-cam.com/video/8z2Euhw_gAo/w-d-xo.html
Now that it's been a few years and I know more about EVs, I'm not really sure the direction that things will take. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 Viewing the six-year-old video and reading the comments, it’s clear how much the industry has evolved. Like in other service industries, such as electronics repair, those who’ve mastered replacing ball/grid chips with hot air stations have adapted by adding new tools and skills to their repertoire. Similarly, in automotive repair, shops that commit to learning and retooling for tomorrow’s challenges will survive, while others may choose to exit the industry.
This progression mirrors broader changes in the transportation landscape. You’ve previously mentioned vehicle subscription services, which suggest a shift in vehicle ownership models. It’s possible that ownership will decline dramatically in favor of services offering access to vehicles on demand.
For me, the increasing cost of vehicle ownership led to a deeper evaluation of travel . At this stage in life, I’ve found services like Uber, Lyft and other services, more practical, offering a cost-effective way to meet transportation needs without the burden of ownership.These platforms could represent the future of mobility for many, especially as ride-sharing and subscription services continue to gain traction.
( AI assisted with this response)
Thanks again for your insight, looking forward to your next video.
Eric I sore on Midwest truck post there is a trayer that a ev goes in side it and gets water in it to contane the fire
A problem with buying broken/salvage EVs is if the high voltage charging electronics are not working and the high voltage battery is dead, then it is probably a really heavy vehicle to move around. Lucky to have the low rolling resistance tires.
Some of those videos where they dismantle a tesla, those modules are foam-cemented into a unified battery body, and they run this coolant lines throughout the pack between the columns - I don't think those can be replaced since it's all glued together.
Are you thinking of doing electric conversion therapy for some ICE vehicles?
Yes, some cases are glued together and are not meant to be 'serviceable', but if it was put together, it can come apart with some persuasion.
I'm open to experiment. Like I said in the video, I've always been an engineering nerd at heart. I just fixed cars because it seemed like the best way to apply that curiosity without attending a 4 year college.
This is true of newer Teslas; older S,X, and Roadster packs can be serviced.
@@jamesengland7461 Yep, and Nissan Leaf battery packs are also great to start out with if you want to delve into module replacement.
Could you do a vid of your tools boxs n tools???
Other income opportunities are tires and suspensions, which apparently have higher wear rates on EVs than on similarly-sized ICE vehicles due to battery weights and torque loads.
Brakes - in northern climates - need perhaps annual to every 2 year maintenance. Not because they wear out, but because they don’t get used as much as on an ICE car, and tend to get bound up.
Only slightly more tire wear, and suspensions should be built for the weight of the cars.
I'm at a point in my life where I'm ED curious!!!! LOL!!!!
LG Chem has battery module manufacturing in Chna.
One of the 2 factories there began to run out of the materials to make the insulation placed between the anode and cathode within the individual cells.
What was the typical solution?
For an entire month, they used less insulation!
Of course, this caused battery pack fires.
That quality control ethic caused a billion-dollar recall of all EVs with these cells in the battery packs.
If your in the market for an EV, do your research!
Question everything.
I have a 2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV.
Like I said in the video, I'm an engineering nerd. I also love learning about engineering failures. Guess what? Most of those failures were the result of design changes made by non engineers to save cost. Thanks for the comment.
Volts jolt, AMPs kill.
Battery cells are actually much larger than AA. Most common types are 2170 which means 21mm diameter and 70mm length. Tesla is experimenting with 4680 cells now. Smaller the battery higher the charge discharge rate u can achieve. Things get much more complicated with the chemistry and ratio of different metals but that is for battery engineers to determine based on use case
Yes, and so are the cells in power tools, but it's a good analog that many people are familiar with, which is why I used it. Thanks for the comment.
I remember the first time I saw a house fire, that involved a car. The tires go boom. Wonder what an EV would have done.
You would have gone home, gone to sleep, woke up the next day, and it would likely still be burning.
not gonna lie, I still prefer when 8+ pistons motivates a vehicle to go down the road :D
Have you even driven an ev? If not, please do
And it's waaaaay cleaner then ev bullshit
@@golfish8589 no, I know the torque is insane, but I need to hear sound from a combustion engine
You can fake the sound. You can't fake the torque and ease of maintenance
@@golfish8589 hahaha then it's not real lol, we normal people prefer reality...torque? Hahahha still less then a real car
I’ve got nothing against EVs. I have big problems with EV MANDATES! When the government tells me I have no choice but to drive an EV, that’s when I get mad. All of these governments telling us that there will be no new ICE sales after 2030 or 2035 are going to meet some extreme resistance from me and people like me. They can get bent, as far as I’m concerned.
There is no , or has ever been a federal USA mandate for you to drive an EV.
Before my kids are dead. There will be no more oil for the world's transportation needs.
I can drive my ev 37 miles on $1.20 worth of electricity. And if I had off peak. It would be about $0.33 to drive 37 miles.
I charge while I sleep. And I can heat my car to a toasty 72 deg while in the garage.
Your radio is fake sound.
Your engine exhaust sound is manipulated by engineers tuning the exhaust pipes and cats and mufflers and resonators.
Go to the 17:40 mark and watch an electric pickup truck smoke a Dodge Ram commings v5.7 diesel .
Oh I forgot to mention. The electric pickup up is towing 8500 pounds.
th-cam.com/video/Zce-wC__kkU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=rLnyaJzEMcW33TBz
!00 years ago gasoline was totally different mostly low octane white paraffin today called Colmans .Take the lid of the fuel tank and it mad gas fumes very quickly and explosion from spark source and you got fire .modern fuels are high octane like Toulen and other fire resistant fule types very stable and hard to ignite sorta more like normal paraffin mixed with less than 25% type fuels like white parrifin colmans fuel .Result much harder to ignite
Fire fighters have experimented with fire blanks to smother the fire