Hey everyone! It's been awhile since the last video, this quick Urbanist video is about my most recent trip, but the larger video will be coming out next week before the holidays! 🤙
Knowing how cheap the class one railroads are i wouldnt be suprised if union p in response to this tunnel negotiation abandons the bit of track with the tunnel in it and then uses some alternate line into denver that probably adds three hours to the trip or they will cobble fuck a bunch of pantagrams onto a 30 year old sd 70
Awful -- you show some Computer Generated Imagery (CGI) of "SUNTRAIN" and claim that it will be 88% efficient at moving renewable energy north without bothering to say how or offering any evidence. Praise or criticism of FasTracks is beside the point -- the system as a whole has poor utilization and does little to mitigate abysmal average transit times using RTD. Commuters who live near light rail and don't have to use buses benefit, but that's about it. As for Mountain Rail, it's going nowhere fast, wasting $5 million appropriated by the General Assembly to "study" (rather, promote) a scheme impractical on its face. It would connect Union Station in downtown Denver with Arvada (where about 124,000 people live), but from there to the end of the line in Craig, there are only about 30,000 more people living near the route. The State owns the Moffat Tunnel, but not the ~200 miles of Union Pacific (UP) track Mountain Rail would have to use to get to Craig; only Steamboat Springs is a likely destination along the route. The plan is apparently to upgrade UP track (still used for freight) for commuter rail, which would be prohibitively expensive in and of itself. Mountain Rail would not serve the heavily traveled I-70 corridor; apparently one of the main reasons it was proposed was as a sop to Craig, which is losing its livelihood of mining coal, but other than the possibility of locating a maintenance facility there, it's hard to see how Mountain Rail would benefit the town, which isn't about to transform itself into a tourist destination. Colorado should be investigating passive maglev, but it's not.
The commuter rail, with the exception of the B line is the high point of RTDs entire system. The light rail has crap frequency and the bus service is incredibly slow and outright dangerous to ride. The commuter rail is borderline on safety, last week on an A line train an extremely drunk homeless guy got on the train at Union without a ticket and the conductor didn't even attempt to kick him off the train, a conductor wearing a security badge so also supposed to be the "enhanced security" they promised but couldn't kick one drunk fare evader off the train.
You see that pretty much whenever urbanists talk about systems. Nothing short of high frequency, heavy-gauge trains being run on grade separated tracks with a sufficient amount of liveable space around it and at a low cost to ride ever seems to get deemed to be acceptable.Having high standards is great, but at the end of the day unless you're building a system from scratch with the ability to just put whatever you like in with whatever layout you want, that's not typically an option. Which gets really frustrating because a lot of these systems are being designed well past the point where the stuff in the area was already built up, which means that the trains are somewhat at the mercy of the local development patterns, and in cases like Seattle, they have to fit through pre-existing tunnel that was built when the city had a population of roughly a quarter of what it was by the time the rail was actually built.
There's a lot of potentially great systems let down by poor land use! I live in the Bay Area so I know that firsthand. BART, Caltrain, and VTA Light Rail are all systems with flashes of greatness with utterly horrendous suburban land use around most of the stations, VTA especially.
3:46 Hey, that's my train! As a Conductor who works with my Enginner on the N-Line, we hear a lot of good comments from our passengers about our service. We keep it clean and have a good amount of daily riders for work or leasure. Especially for large events in town, it's not uncommon for our trains to be packed to the brim even with extra cars added.
@@AMPProf remakibly we have a large team of cleaners on the N-Line who are contracted to do all station and trains, as a conductor i can even personally call them on the radio about spills or accidents.
So glad that we got a video on Denver, they did do a great job building out their system. Union Station is a gem that needs to be replicated across the country as well but fix the big issue (terminal station vs through running). Salt Lake City is trying to do something like that with the Rio Grande Plan.
I hope SLC changes their hostile design language for future rail expansion. Waiting for the train anywhere in SLC in the winter is horrible. No shelter from wind or precipitation and long wait times between trains.
I think one of the best ideas is to run 2 underground loops lines between Union station and Downtown with cross platform transfers between light rail and heavy rail. It would be expensive but also game changing for Denver
Some background to the RTD's lack of thru-running downtown: The reason why the rail system was built in the way it was built are complex but generally come down to each segment being built with limited funding at different times, each compromising to make their goals. RTD created its first plan for a fixed rail transit system in 1973. This relied heavily on two elevated "PRT" trunk lines running above Colfax and Broadway. Yes, PRT as in the automated on-demand pod system like Morgantown, WV. RTD's first light rail proposal was in 1980. This system looked similar to what we have today but used Broadway/16th for the trunk line and took MLK to Stapleton airport. The 1980 ballot measure failed 54% no to 46% yes. There were various studies throughout the 80's. The modern routing, using the Denver & Rio Grande Western right-of-way south of downtown, had taken hold by the late 1980s. At that time Phil Anchutz owned the D&RGW as part of his Southern Pacific group. The Southern Pacific was bankrupt and happy to offer a hometown price to RTD for the ROW. Once the Union Pacific bought the Southern Pacific in the 1990s, the freight railroads stopped cooperating with RTD. Denver was a very different place in 1990. The system's goal was to take commuters from packed residential areas of the suburbs and allow them to commute to job-dense areas downtown. The city had a population of around 450K instead of today's over 700k and was continuing to decline. There were areas of the suburbs that were just as dense as areas of Denver. South Broadway was considered a "bad neighborhood" full of empty storefronts and "corn" theaters. The D&RGW route bypassed these "bad areas", and the planners never considered that they would bounce back and become some of the most valuable areas of the city. The first part of the light rail system proposed to be built ran from downtown to the former Stapleton airport along Welton/MLK. The MLK segment received too much community push back and was removed. The Welton segment alone, now perpendicular to the 16th Street Mall, was built first. The next segment was a natural continuation of that along the D&RGW line to I-25 & Broadway in 1992. The original system, therefore, didn't serve Union Station at all! At that time, the loft movement in LoDo was just kicking off, and Coors Field was under construction. The original system plus the central corridor was severely over-capacity on day 1. RTD had to reintroduce bus service on Broadway between Civic Center and I-25 & Broadway in the first week of operations due to overcrowding. Eventually, as a result of that overcrowding and the revitalization of LoDo, RTD planners realized they had to serve Union Station and shoehorned in the "Central Platte Valley" extension in 2002. This also served Union Station from the side because it was cheaper than building a subway. A major motivation was the air pollution potential caused by putting several major sports facilities near each other in the river valley. A night Rockies game, Broncos game, and tail end of the rush hour could coincide. It is even possible for an arena event to add to the smog. They considered rapid transit on Broadway, but when public hearings were held regarding the FasTracks plan, merchants objected to losing parking on Broadway and residents objected to running northbound trains on Lincoln. One other important feature of the D&RGW alignment was access to the Auraria campus, which Broadway does not offer. Oh, and there were a few offices in LoDo, most notably the RTD headquarters. The original LRT line opened as a single project on October 7, 1994. The south segment was separately approved in 1992 and hurried up to catch up with the north segment. That is memorialized by the rough ride on the hurriedly constructed track between the Mariposa Division and the Bayaud Avenue crossing. Important to note that during the period from 1985 to about 1994, the City and County of Denver's objective was to remove all of the tracks from Union Station in favor of real estate development. What we have now is a compromise. The northern commuter rail lines built under FasTracks were planned separately and had to terminate at Union Station because that is where the freight lines that they are parallel to, went. Union Station was originally planned to have the trains on a lower level so a future thru connection could be built, but the FRA refused to allow the lines to end at the bottom of a hill and RTD was out of money, so they didn't argue too much. They then sold the land at the end of the tracks and built the two most valuable office buildings in the city where the train would need to go in a thru-running scenario, ensuring it would cost billions to fix later.
“Not that bad” is exactly how I describe our commuter-focused rail system. Unfortunately we’re missing leadership with vision for building upon what we have, but I’m hopeful that is starting to shift
I disagree, Debra Johnson’s focus on the test of the non rail system has kept RTD safe from bankruptcy that would have surely continued if Phil Washington had stayed in charge
@ preventing bankruptcy is quite different from leading with vision IMHO. As a former operator, I think of RTD as Regulated To Dysfunction, having experienced how & why things don’t work, from the inside. Threat of bankruptcy may actually be a useful tool to get the state involved with some $ along with their coup attempt via the board, the CEOs boss.
@ I strongly disagree because although there are problems, before the recent maintence issues services have been improving. RTD has been having a strong couple years.
Denver man here - I'm very proud of Colorado's rail system. I do wish more people used it, though. For those who don't know, the rail system mostly orbits the main city of Denver. While there are lines that go into downtown proper, most of the rail infrastructure follows the local highway system. I really think that ridership would be improved by joining the SE part of Denver and Aurora to the main system, maybe following the Parker road route. There are a lot of walkable *places* that are not really walkable between one another, either due to distance or major roads. I am not a city planner in any way, but I often visit places where I think rail expansion would make sense across the city.
@@ttopero That is exactly what I was thinking about. Leetsdale / Parker from at least 9 mile to Auraria, or Union Station. Ideally it would go farther down Parker road, but that's generally what I think.
@ there are some of us who are working on options for getting a route along Speer at least to DUS from CO Blvd. Then we can extend it to 9 mile. Even that’s likely years away. Beyond 225 is another generation given the density of Parker. I personally would love a rail route from Federal Blvd to E-470 via the set of stroads we’re talking about, but not likely
@@ttopero It's good to know people are at least thinking about it. RE: the Federal Blvd route, would it follow from where Speer terminates up on the hill and go North to 470, or where would that intersection be? May be far away, but it's always interesting to hear about.
@@Strykenine a BRT is planned for Federal Blvd right now that’s probably as much as it will ever get, especially between 20th & 50th Ave’s due to narrower R.O.W.-a challenge limiting full BRT in that area by sharing lanes with car traffic instead of required bus only lanes. Going beyond Federal probably doesn’t make sense for the area as an extension of a SE line along Leetsdale.
Denver lore: In the summer of 1858, during the Pike's Peak Gold Rush, a group of gold prospectors from Lawrence, Kansas, established Montana City as a mining town on the banks of the South Platte River in what was then western Kansas Territory, on traditional lands of Cheyenne and Arapaho. This was the first historical settlement in what later became the city of Denver. But the site faded quickly, and by the summer of 1859 it was abandoned in favor of Auraria (named after the gold-mining town of Auraria, Georgia) and St. Charles City. In November that year, General William Larimer and Captain Jonathan Cox, both land speculators from eastern Kansas Territory (Colorado was once a part of Kansas Territory), placed cottonwood logs to stake a claim on the bluff overlooking the confluence of the South Platte River and Cherry Creek, across the creek from the existing mining settlement of Auraria, and on the site of the existing townsite of St. Charles. Larimer named the townsite Denver City to curry favor with Territorial Governor James W. Denver. Larimer hoped the town's name would help it be selected as the county seat of Arapahoe County, but unbeknownst to him, Governor Denver had already resigned from office. The location was accessible to existing trails and was across the South Platte River from the site of seasonal encampments of the Cheyenne and Arapaho. The site of these first towns is now occupied by Confluence Park near downtown Denver. Edward W. Wynkoop came to Colorado in 1859 and became one of the city's founders. Wynkoop Street in Denver is named after him. Denver became home to the very first Chipotle Mexican Grill in 1993. Elvis Presley once flew in his private jet from Memphis to Denver just for a sandwich. The Colorado Gold Mine Company Steakhouse delivered 22 Fool’s Gold Loafs, a sandwich containing a jar of peanut butter, a jar of grape jelly & one pound of bacon, to Elvis and his friends. They dined with champagne & returned home without leaving the airport. The 16th Street Mall in Denver was designed by master architect IM Pei, who also designed the JFK Library in Boston, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, and the Louvre's iconic glass pyramid. The stone used for the Colorado State Capitol is one of the rarest stones in the world, rose onyx. Once called Beulah red marble, the stone is actually not marble, but rather is metamorphosed limestone tinged with iron oxide. Also referred to as Colorado rose onyx, the stone was discovered in a small deposit in the town of Beulah (near Pueblo) in 1893. The Beulah quarry remains the only known source of the stone in the world. In fact, the adornment of the Colorado State Capitol’s interior depleted the entire known supply of rose onyx. Denver was originally selected the host of the 1976 Winter Olympics (the other bids were Sion, Switzerland, Tampere, Finland, and Vancouver-Garibaldi, Canada). 1976 being the centennial of the state of Colorado and of course the US bicentennial. Organizers in Denver organizing committee had promised that the Games would only cost 14 million to be run, with Governor John Love stating that 5 million would come from taxpayers. However, rising costs and logistics soon came to plague the city, which included an idea of having bobsled events be held in Lake Placid, NY. A grassroots movement formed against having the Games in Denver. Later that year in November, CO voters rejected partially funding the games in a referendum, and for the first time a city awarded an Olympics rejected them. The IOC then offered Whistler, Canada outside Vancouver the games (which would of course eventually host the 2010 Winter Olympics with Vancouver) but they declined due to a change in government in elections, Sion declined, Salt Lake City offered but pulled its bid, then Lake Placid, and finally in Feb 1973, the IOC transferred the games to Innsbruck, Austria who hosted in 1964. The sculptor of Blucifer at Denver International Airport was Luis Jiménez. The sculpture was commissioned in 1992 for 300K but wasn't erected until 2008. The original proposal was for a bison stampede. But developers thought this was inappropriate because the bison was driven to near extinction. So he proposed a mustang instead, as it's a symbol of the West and how people used to travel long distances on horses! He was inspired by his own stallion he had growing up, an Appaloosa named Blackjack. Tragically as you mentioned, this sculpture would cause the death of Luis in 2006 as while working on it in his studio in New Mexico, one of the sculpture's three sections came loose from a hoist, pinning him against a steel support beam and severing an artery. He bled to death. He died at age 65. Friends and family of him were conflicted as to whether or not to continue the sculpture. But to avoid having to pay Denver for missing another deadline and failing to deliver, they chose to finish it with the help of the artist's staff and professional racecar painters.
Glad you gave Denver another chance! Besides RTD, it's worth mentioning the state's public intercity bus service Bustang which began in 2015! I know we have the urge to compare RTD commuter rail to a system like SEPTA since they share things in common, but it's a bit unfair to do that. SEPTA is fully electrified because of overhead infrastructure its predecessors built, on top of the fact it just cut its diesel services completely instead of electrifying them. While RTD built an electrified commuter rail system from scratch with four commuter lines opening in the late 2010s or in 2020, which is quite admirable that a whole modern regional rail system was built not just in the late 2010s but in a western North American city you don't think about when it comes to transit. And as stated in your first Denver vid, SEPTA has the advantage of having historic walkable town centers around stations, while again, because RTD's system is much newer, that wasn't the case at the first for them. But as they say, if you build it, they will come, and that's exactly what is happening as shown here. TOD projects are popping up across RTD, and as you mentioned, it's great that the A Line is so popular. Not only does it take you direct to the airport's Jeppesen Terminal, but 40th Ave & Airport Blvd-Gateway Park, Peoria, and Central Park act as bus hubs, and the Central Park redevelopment area is where the old Stapleton International Airport used to be. Also, all RTD regional rail stations have level boarding! The LIRR also gets a lot of slack from urbanists because of land use, but the system too has many benefits, and the land use has been improving. You have to remember that the LIRR is a 24/7 system, much of it electrified, its main-line triple-tracked and quad-tracked in certain sections, have a great portion of grade-separation like the elevated Babylon Branch (which was a megaproject from the 1950s to the 1980s to elevate the branch's stations on viaducts and now all of the Babylon Branch is grade-separated), all stations are high-level, and serves different important centers like airports, sports venues, malls and universities. For isolated Fire Island communities, the Montauk Branch acts as a lifeline, with ferry connections through shuttles to/from stations. Certain stations are bus hubs, like Hicksville, Mineola, Hempstead, and Patchogue. SCT redesigned their network in 2023, with timed transfers and most having 30-minute headways. Places like Patchogue, Riverhead, Babylon, and Huntington have bikeshare, and they’ve been building residential TOD at stations like Ronkonkoma, Patchogue, and Wyandanch. On top of the residential TOD north of the station, Ronkonkoma hub transforms its huge southern lot, with a relocated airport terminal to the north with a dedicated pedestrianized corridor from the terminal to the station (yup, no taxi or peoplemover, just walk from the station!). In addition to a hotel, life sciences hub, and a convention center. Another nice thing about the LIRR, similar to the DC Metro's Arlington Cemetery stop, if you have a loved one buried at one of the cemeteries in the Pinelawn area, the cemeteries have their own dedicated station. The station saw 13,885 riders in 2023. Nice to see a brief mention of the Winter Park Express, more people should be aware there's a way to hit the ski slopes by train if they're in Denver! Starting at $19 one-way for adults (in 2024) from Union Station AND it leaves you closer to the slopes than driving, it's a win-win! If it wasn't for David Moffat’s vision to build the Denver, Northwestern & Pacific Railway across, or through, the Continental Divide to Salt Lake City, Denver may not have grown into the important economic engine of the West that it is today and would've been left behind. The 6.2-mile Moffat Tunnel is such an engineering feat, and great to see it getting the love that it deserves. The tunnel shaved 173 miles off the trip from Denver to Salt Lake City! Denver awarded David Moffat with a solid-silver cup with a marble base called the Moffat Cup (which is now on display at Denver's Union Station). Moffat poured his all into making Denver connected to the rest of the western states by train, and although his railway wasn't completed until after his death (he passed in 1911), Denver recognized Moffat's efforts to put them on the map and so they presented him that in 1904 simply out of love. The cup is huge at 230 pounds of pure silver and marble, and it stands at nearly three and a half feet tall! David Moffat was unable to raise sufficient funds to build the tunnel before he died in 1911, but the fight for the tunnel continued in his honor! In 1920, a bill was passed by the state legislature to build new tunnels, but other regions blocked it because they didn't want Denver to gain an advantage in commerce. Blocking this would backfire big time when Pueblo was devastated by a flood in 1922 and Denver took this opportunity to say they'll vote for emergency funding for Pueblo in return for bonds for the tunnel. Eight hundred men ended up working round the clock for three and a half years, excavating 3 billion pounds of rock, equal to 1,600 freight trains of 40 cars each. The tunnel's pioneer bore doubled as an aqueduct that carried water across the divide to Denver, increasing the city's water supply by 30 percent. Alignment surveys were performed at night to avoid solar aberration due to different air densities and temperatures at the survey points. When holed through, the tunnel's lateral alignment varied only 1 1/4 inches, a surveying feat. A small pilot tunnel was bored parallel with and 75 feet (23 m) south of the main tunnel to facilitate the work and was eight feet high and eight feet wide. The pilot tunnel was officially holed through in February 1927. The blast of dynamite was set off by Calvin Coolidge pressing a key in DC, and the program was broadcast by radio from the heart of the mountain. The railroad tunnel was holed through in July 1927 and formally opened in February 1928.
I really hope they electrify Moffat tunnel. As far as I know, Moffat tunnel's capacity is severely limited by the headways between trains, as the tunnel needs to be ventilated due to the diesel emissions. It'd make much more sense to electrify the tunnel to get better performance out of it. Maybe this could even be the start of more widespread electrification of mainlines.
Expensive to have an entire switching operation at both ends of a tunnel, dedicated crews, dedicated locomotives, probably not enough space overhead in the tunnel for electric lines, and a huge amount of transmission infrastructure to pull uphill 300+ axle freights. Make some battery heavy hybrid diesel electrics and keep the generator off in the tunnel.
The one time I took the skeet train, the tunnel ventilators were broken for like 3 hours and we sat on the siding on one of the best ski days I've ever seen. I totally missed half a day skiing because they couldn't give the dam fans to work.
@@SethMethCS Correct, as the Milwaukee Road found out with their electrified lines through the Rockies. A better solution is mandatory use of EPA Tier 4 locomotives now and eventually hybrid locomotives by the 2030's.
I think the main holdup to electrification of that sub isn't moffat (which I think I remember seeing somewhere is high enough), but the other 29 tunnels between denver and moffat (which are extremely not). Gonna need to do it at some point, though.
In all fairness to Canada, RTD may be electrified "mainline rail", but it serves the same purpose as the metros, subways and light rail in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, which are also substantial. They all gave fairly broad reach out to outlying areas as well as the city cores, and are all electrified. That's on top of quite extensive non-electrified operations in Toronto (and to some extent Montreal). It's kind of petty to split hairs on the exact method of propulsion that allows people to have relatively similar mobility.
It’s also just not true. The Deux-Montagnes line in Montreal was an electrified mainline that opened in 1918 by CN. It doesn’t exist anymore because it is getting replaced by an automated metro, the REM.
Alan - fantastic video. If you ever want more context; I was a signal engineer for Sound Transit in Seattle, and one of my best friends is now with CDOT working on some of these very things... :) I was shocked to know you knew of the fact that CDOT owns the Moffat... Hey, maybe Tennessee Pass will come back. Or something else...
Having both a passenger train to Craig and on the Tennessee pass would be great. Maybe sometime when I'm back in the area I'll have to check out some of the narrow gauge stuff. Also a Seattle video will be coming soon too, I was just in Portland and Seattle after my Denver stay.
Hey look, its me the friend that works at CDOT. I'm passenger rail adjacent but not in the rail group. There are good things going on. My personal opinion is that the state of Colorado and developers in Colorado still don't understand what TOD is. The idea that you can replicate the most vibrant, and expensive, areas of Denver that are the historic streetcar suburbs is still shocking. Unfortunately stuff also seems to get studied to death with minimal funding being given to actually implementing the results of the study. The general hope is that once one train state funded intercity rail train gets running regularly that more will follow. The mountain rail project (trains to Craig & Steamboat) is also entirely state funded which is making the process a lot faster and trains will be running year round sooner than front range passenger rail. Now if we can just get people to let go of the idea that every train station needs to be a park and ride with hundreds of spaces that typically go unused, life will be easier and more train based
I’m an engineer with DTO (the company that runs the A, B, and G lines for RTD), and I’m glad that we’re getting some complements about the commuter rail system. I’m actually sitting on the Ward tail track right now lol
Thank you so much for posting a nice video about Denver. I live here and I frequently use the train lines. Honestly, I simply never understood why there was so much criticism because they were some of the best in the country. There are also a few big projects like east colfax bus rapid transit running straight through the densest corridor in Denver, as well as the front range rail you mentioned. Great work as always
As a Canadian, it's also sad because the vast majority of us live in 3 mega-regions... Cascadia (Lower Mainland), Alberta (Edmonton-Calgary corridor) and Ontario-Quebec (Windsor to Quebec City but mainly Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal) and those regions could use fast, frequent, electric regional and high speed services. All have planned for years but never actually built anything which to me is even sadder... Good intentions but no real plans...
While it's true, it isn't very relevant because it just reflects the unusual choice of technology Denver used. Usually such regional systems in he US and Canada are light rail or metro such as the light rail in Calgary, Dallas, Porland, San Diego or Metro like BART in the Bay area. And of course the older lines in Denver are LRT. Usually mainline trains are only used on existing legacy track. But Denver just went in a different direction with the expansion of its system which is mostly just a quirk rather than some sort of achievement. Most of the light rail systems in Canada (and the US) are fully electrified. And Canada has several electrified LRT systems in smaller cities than Greater Denver. So yeah... if you do something very unusual then by definition you're unlikely to have much company.
Since 2014, RTD moved Union Station, built the W, A, B, G, R, N-Line, SERE, Flatiron Flyer, and the Metro ride. Ridership in 2013 was around 104M, current ridership is what, 61M. "More TOD?" To do what? Decrease ridership? TOD does not equal ridership.
RTD reason to drive. I stopped taking the rail because of service interruptions, homeless on the trains and the amount of break in’s at park and ride. Most of my co workers have stopped taking the rail for the same reasons
B line extension mentioned!!1!!ONE!! It hasn't happened in large part because nobody asked BNSF for an estimate before the ballot initiative, and they want _way_ more money than RTD expected. If you want to know more about that cluster, I recommend the Ghost Train podcast by CPR. Also if you're curious about Colorado transportation, you should follow Nathaniel Minor's reporting.
Denver is one of the top cities if I was forced to live in America. Nice size, seems to be more forward thinking in general and with transit. And great access to nature
THANK YOU! As a Denverite who commutes almost exclusively by Bike, Train, and Bus I think our system is pretty miraculous all things considered. Too many people in Denver think very little of the RTD.
If you're planning on talking about through-running the main train hall of Union Station, it's effectively impossible due to the development around Union boxing it in. Me and a couple other people have been working on plans to divert the RTD trains to where the light rail platforms are now, which would free up extra capacity for intercity trains in the existing train hall
Just took the ski train to winter park yesterday and it was great! As a Denverite I would love to see us bargain for not only a train to steamboat but option for season passes for frequent commuters.
Trains full of batteries to transport energy? That has some serious Factorio vibes. I've heard of Factorio players shipping around trains full of 500-degree steam from their nuclear power plants to power mining outposts, rather than running power lines out to them. Yes, I know that sounds stupid, but there's nothing in the game preventing it from working.
I‘m an expert in R&D for power grids, and the Suntrain is beyond goofy. These batteries would be so expensive that with the low electricity prices in the US, there is no chance for coming close to profitability. It will be cheaper both in a macroeconomical and a business perspective to keep the status quo. And compared to many others in the industry, I am really open for unconventional solutions!
Huh? They’re moving the excess renewable energy produced in Pueblo to Denver via battery because transmission lines won’t be built…. It’s not to save money it’s to lower emissions from non renewables and share excess energy. I think your macroeconomical status quo is confused.
TBH, batteries on trains doesn't make much sense to me unless we're talking about trips from city to city where you can get the train going while plugged in and just use a few batteries to keep it going the rest of the way, or possibly get it started again if you need to. That being said, if there is damage to the wires, that can cause problems.
When you throw lots of subsidies at every step (diesel, wind, solar, rail, batteries, mining, R&D, etc), even things that lose money can get created LOL. With demand for the electricity & the production source being disconnected physically, it might make more sense to pay extra (even at a loss) for the margin of electricity needed while the lines get built than to deal with ramifications of insufficient supply. There’s little capacity in Colorado for hydrocarbon generation & nuclear doesn’t seem on the table, so it’s a bridge as “natural gas/methane is supposed to be I guess.
I've become obsessed with Suntrain over the last few days. I work for an electrical/communications infrastructure company, and the people at my work think it's cool too!
I'm currently stuck in a suburb that does have a light rail connection to Denver. But I've never been able to use it. They only show up 2 times in the morning and come back 2 times in the evening. No weekends either. Also doesn't help that it's a 40 minute walk to the station, which is a giant park and ride.
That sucks, we have something similar to that around here, it's literally commuter rail, but in our case, it shares tracks with both Amtrak and regular freight trains, so the limited number of times a day was pretty much inevitable.
Your description suggests you’re in an exurban like Evergreen that has a 2-coach route for commuting only that connects to the light rail. There’s no rail that only runs in a single direction 2 times in the morning & reverses for 2 times later in the day. FF2 is more like this now but FF1 covers this. Can you elaborate?
Love that you mentioned Canada has no electrified passenger heavy rail lines. After the DM line in Montreal was turned into the REM project there's none left. Of course Metrolinx always flaunts their planned electrified network in Toronto but it's been almost ten years and I haven't seen one overhead wire! Thanks for keeping it real!
Metrolinx is actually about to actually start work on that they have been doing the Prep Work for a couple years, I think the Wires are supposed to start going up on the Lakeshore line next year
As a Salt Lake City shill, I enjoy shitting on Denver. And the RTD certainly has major issues regarding maintenance, funding, and operations (30-60 min frequencies on Light Rail) that seriously need to be solved. But that doesn't stop it being the best system for a plains city. I also have major issues with Denver Union and it feels emblematic of American transit projects as a whole (fancy station that doesn't get the service it deserves because of budget overruns) that Salt Lake City can certainly learn from in regards to a certain plan.
DUS is separate from transit & rail operations. One is a real estate play that hosts services while the others are operations located near the building.
I'm pretty skeptical of the front range rail project after having chatted with a couple of Amtrak conductors about it, they're under the impression that it's going to to just use old equipment on the existing BNSF front range sub. So a 3x a day train crawling down the barely maintained and derailment prone BNSF front range sub at less than 30mph. I remember the demo train from last year, it took them 90 minutes to get from Union to Longmont without making any stops. You could probably take an RTD bus and get there quicker. If they can pull a miracle and get the line double tracked and upgraded to at least 90mph speeds and get some decent rolling stock and up the frequency to more than 3 trains per day then it could be a game changer, but anything less than that will just be a flop that nobody will use.
That’s why advocacy organizations like ColoRail & Greater Denver Transit are pushing for a full system with 12 trains in each direction daily, from the beginning of the full build out. It might not be 12 trains on each segment (starting with the NW line first presumably) but once Ft Collins to Pueblo is open, 12 trains.
@@ttopero For a project that's greenlit there's certainly not much info out there, like where are they going to get rolling stock. This also applies to the upcoming service to Steamboat Springs. I'm not expecting electrified lines, though I'm sure if that was feasible cost wise CO DOT would've pushed for it.
@@mrvwbug4423 Rolling stock is not inconsequential, but the alignment & stations are much higher priority with less options & much higher expense. There have been musings by politicians & bureaucrats about different consist types (hydrogen) but it’s still less important than the R.O.W. so far. Although not favorable, there’s also existing cars that could be refurbished for a first generation of FRPR.
It’s so annoying living In Nederland with no access without I70 to middle park area, while being so close. A station in Rollinsville (again) would be a game changer! And so much easier than taking a bus down to Denver to take the zeypher. Great Video.
• What’s the per ride ridership cost of light rail? ($16+… It would be cheaper to just do free handy-van rides for disabled and uber rides for everyone else.) • What’s the average speed of the W Line? (23 mph… a door-to-door 11-12 minute car ride is 45 minutes via Light Rail.) • Why didn’t the ski train turn a profit? (Because trains are heavy and expensive to run for people transit outside of super-densely, packed urban environments.) • If automated driving becomes a thing, won’t you likely see the end of light rail within 7-10 years?
Side note: With the conversion of the line to Deux Montagnes from mainline to REM (suburban train), Canada indeed has 0 km of electrified mainline railway…
I forget which subreddit I mentioned it in, but I basically said verbatim what you said about how it's easy for municipalities to make better use of their land around stations, than it is to build out new trains lines. Anyways, as a transplant from Philly that moved to Denver, I appreciate your content coverage of RTD and the Denver area. Thank you Alan!
Hey thanks for the video on Denver's transit. One thing I wanted to mention was Denver's Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) development. I actually thought that's what this video was going to be about lol. They started construction a few months ago on E Colfax and there are plans to have BRT lanes on Colfax, Colorado Blvd and Federal Blvd. It will reduce Colfax to one lane traffic in each direction and reduce a lot of street parking along the way.
Great video Alan. That would be amazing for the Moffat route to be a testbed for the return of heavy-haul electric freight operations and new passenger service as well. I'm glad to see the commuter rail lines getting ridership and it seems the development will come just like the NYC subway, I'm thinking how when the 7 was built in the early 1900s people thought they were crazy for buiilding the subway out to what was fields at the time and how there's no shortage of dense development along that line. Wouldn't rail ROWs be a great place for putting those new transmission lines without having to plow through forests and wetlands and such and you could electrify the trains at the same time with the countless benefits that offers to both the rail operator, the passengers riding (hopefully) and the communitiies it runs through. I'm really hoping Colorado is turning the corner on urban planning and to smarter thoughts around transportation.
thank you for revisiting this! i always thought i was insane for praising our system, and that its online reputation did not accurately reflect reality very well
American exceptionalism strikes again. How about putting the electrons into batteries onto a train into the city, vs electrifying the line and using that as both transmission & power the trains?
@@physh Adding centenaries to power the trains is more practical than using batteries. It's far more efficient as you lose relatively little in terms of energy running the power through the wires versus having to carry those batteries all the time. Plus, those batteries take up space, and you get a bit more passengers on trains that don't have to carry the batteries. Admittedly, the same could be said for fuel, but that's a lateral move. There's also the whole issue that the elements that go into batteries aren't cheap. Using batteries for things like trains that could just as easily be plugged in, means that we don't have the materials for things like EVs that can't be plugged in.
@@physhthat’s actually Suntrain’s strategy as I understand it: charge batteries from renewable sources & train them to where they can add electricity to the grid. Not sure if you’re also suggesting running battery trains off those batteries or powering catenary from those batteries too❓❔
I live in boulder but I still take the train to and from the airport when i can. Last time I took the train i forgot my bag in the overhead rack(d'oh!)and the conductor unlocked the train and helped me look for it! There are definitely some bright spots in this flawed system, and i really hope it gets the funding it needs to be truly world class.
Oh man, wish I had known you were in Denver so I could say hi! Really glad to see another video on Denver's transit (between you and RMTransit we've gotten quite a few videos this year haha!) Frequency is 100% RTD's biggest issue right now, I'm really hoping that the new board will help get that up more than it is right now. Also we're finally building BRT on Colfax (actual BRT not the fake BRT the Flatiron Flyer is) so that'll make it a lot nicer to navigate the core of the city on transit.
In the January 2025 schedules there will be some more frequency restorations, but the operator shortage continues, so the system will still be below 2019 levels.
I wanna love RTD light rail more but over the summer the e-line's 10 mph slow zones and 1 train per hour frequency broke me. Had to move to cap hill and get a bike. Now I only ever take the bus.
I found this quite an informative video! I didn't know about the Suntrain project. I look forward to seeing how it develops... or if this is the first domino that would lead to the electrification of the Denver-Pueblo freight rail line. Thanks for the video!
I heard "through the grapevine" some time ago, that the Moffat Tunnel lease is why UP has never fully abandoned the Tennessee Pass line. It's their relief valve should traffic pick up or if negotiating a new lease for the tunnel falls through. It would crack me up if UP simply walked away from that line and the tunnel, and stuck it to the state. After the lease is up, the railroad is under NO obligation to renew it.
Uh Canada is currently in the process of Electrifying almost 100 Miles of Track around Toronto mainly the Lakeshore, Kitchener-Stouffville, and Barrie lines
Haha. Honest and perfect overview of RTD. Commuter rail AMAZING! Bus reliability and frequency complete SH*T!!!!! Trying to use both of them to get anywhere? Good freaking luck not getting stranded in the freezing cold for 30-60 minutes.
Yup, G line got NIMBYd and will never be extended to Golden. Amtrak is rescuing the B line by making it part of the front range corridor, which still means no frequent service to Boulder.
@@mrvwbug4423boomers aren’t going to be all-powerful forever. There’s hope that Gen X will become the leadership to tour it around so the Millennials can get the credit for taking it across the finish line😉
@@ianhomerpura8937 I think it’s more about being a highway & car-dependent generation than hating rail electrification or even train travel itself. They’ve had the power for much longer than most generations & have had an outsized impact that will take generations to recover from. But it’s possible!
Until 2020, Montréal Canada had 32km (or roughly 20 US miles of electrified service. While originally started in late 2010s early 2020s, the system was rebuilt in 1995 with new 25kcv AC electrification and totally new rolling stock. In 1983, BC Rail opened a 132km (82 US miles) Tumbler Ridge line from Pringe george to ironically coal mines to the north. After CN bought it circa 2003-2004 , it quickly replaced locos with its prefered 1950s diesels and tore down electrification. (not sure how it copes with the long tunnels built for electrification).
Thanks for this Alan! I saw that piece and I didn't like it nor do I like the author, he rubs me the wrong way. I began following because of your coverage of transit in and around Philadelphia where I grew up. Thanks also, for being a credible source. All the best Edward
😂😂 it should not take 10 years to build roughly over 100 miles of line. Thats the biggest problem with the US, things take wayyy to long to build and go over cost for no reason.
This is exciting. I would take a train from COS to Denver and on to Steamboat Springs. Possibly someone could start a bus tour to Colorado River Headwaters? I would do that, also.
suntrain is doing a great idea and 80 percent effeciency isn't that bad but I think they could improve that but still it's a great concept to move energy around when we don't have enough power lines around
I love the RTD light rail and rail system and even the bus system as NIMBYs ended up canning the extension to Boulder, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand why they made the Westminster rail stop not connect to the RTD bus that stops in Westminster. This forces the only method to get from Denver to Boulder to be a pure bus ride
RTD is a decent system! The annoyance for me is the NIMBYs that don't want the development around it that can give it great ridership. Good callout that the rail can be the hardest thing to build though, development can always come later.
I'm personally under the impression that RTD needs a radial line connecting the D, W, and G lines. As of right now, one would have to take one line all the way to Union Station to get to another line when the more convenient option is to drive or just not go at all.
There's not enough riders to justify the expense. There are buses from Boulder to Golden. What jobs are people heading to that would require this line? Why would you need this line?
@KP-zy1ke There are jobs all over the damn city, it's less about just jobs, but more about connecting communities, students, families, etc. Yes, there are buses, but they regularly get stuck in traffic and don't have their own lanes. Plus -- from what I've seen -- the ridership on most bus lines is abysmal when someone can take a car.
As a Pizza Delivery Driver downtown (read on the road 3-4 hours a day), the passenger rail is great, barely an inconvenience. The freight rail, however, has blocked an entire neighborhood’s worth of at-grade crossings for hours at a time and added 30+ minutes to my delivery times more often than I’d like. But the biggest problem by far is the fact that every single foot of curbside in some places is used for parking and constantly in-use, too. It’s really hard to drive when I have to pull out into oncoming traffic to see if anyone is coming and then park illegally two blocks away to make my delivery. Less parking downtown! More loading areas! More transit! Honestly, my endgame is when transit gets so good I can make deliveries on foot faster than my car.
RTD isn’t a public commuter system so much as an unreliable cluster of trains that come whenever they want. Among passengers you’re guaranteed people so strung out on something they don’t realize they’re staring at you with pupils the size of mars while baring their teeth at you. The stations are always kinda uncomfortable and shady. The rail infrastructure is there but that’s about it, no security at the stations, no consistent schedule, not even a PA system to announce delays. It’s a jumbled mess of trains claiming to be a fully functioning public transit system
@ some people don’t have the privilege of having the choice of not using public transit. Maybe a better solution is clean up Denver and start spending tax payer money on things that legitimately benefit the tax payer instead of spending millions on extra toll lanes on the highway that people have to pay for anyway even though it’s funded with tax payer money
A lot of frustration here for north Denver metro cities (I live in Longmont) who have been paying taxes for many years for a light rail system that was promised to us but only delivered to Denver and south Denver. Terrible mismanagement of the whole project. Lawsuits are being considered.
If you're wondering why Alan was bringing up power companies working with railroads, that used to be a way a lot of the old Interurbans and streetcars got built. Now I'm not advocating for just bringing those back, because with modern traffic they'd be screwed if not built with some separated right of ways a la green grass tramtracks like in Europe. The thing is if they're talking they might be able to talk the freight railroads into electrification and into building parallel transit lines to spend electricity they otherwise wouldn't use.
That was the case here in the Philippines as well. The prewar streetcar lines in Manila were operated by the Manila Electric Rail and Light Company, or MERALCO. But after the streetcars were all destroyed during the Battle of Manila in 1945, MERALCO abandoned the rail business altogether.
I don’t see the tunnel being halt hostage. UP has a lot more leverage here than you think. UP has nearly 0 on line traffic origination, and doesn’t run that high of frequency. It wouldn’t be that hard for UP to just straight up abandon it. Shift traffic north to the transcon, and keep going on as normal.
Thanks for naming and shaming Canada, we need the kick in the arse. To be fair, Ontario is doing a big electrification project right now to parts of the GO regional rail network. Our government in Alberta though, is planning a regional rail network (which is awesome), but they will almost definitely make it diesel locomotives not EMU's, because they're all in the pocket of the oil companies. Still, intercity rail is better than none I guess.
0:07. That was really mean.☹Especially since this person is certainly a supporter of electrifying Canada's commuter rail. As an Austinite, 3:32 was well-deserved, however. 3:45 is a really important point, but there are still better and worse places to build transit (e.g. better through land that can be redeveloped, worse along highways, which block access to stations).
The state of Colorado is actually forcing TOD around train and frequent bus routes as well. Colorado is doing a lot of good things. There is even a decent chance the front range service will be 12 trips per day at 90 mph on upgraded and expanded BNSF/UP infrastructure designed and built to actually handle all the passenger and freight trains that are anticipated to be using the joint ROW Edit: thank you for recognizing all the hard work Colorado has been doing, I think the good things should be talked about more so that we can try to replicate the positive wins elsewhere
The amount of infrastructure work that 90mph on that corridor would require is insane. BNSF front range subdivision is a poorly maintained, single track, 20-30mph freight sub and not a main line. It's had like 3 derailments in the last few years one of which took out a viaduct in August.
@mrvwbug4423 there will definitely be a lot of infrastructure needed but the state is likely to put a sales tax issue on the ballot in 2026 in hopes to raise funds to do that regardless of what is going on with the FRA, they could probably raise like $2-3 billion that way, and CDOT is heavily involved so there is always a chance the state puts money in their budget as well. they are also studying 6 & 12 trips per day at 79 mph in an alternatives analysis, I’m hoping they decided to go with 12 trips at 90 mph though.
Batteries are a particularly dumb idea, especially right now when we're needed the components to electrify things like EVs that can't be run on overhead wires. I don't think that it's a bad idea to have a little bit of battery power for emergencies, but in general, the primary source of power should come from wires. At least until and unless somebody can figure out how to power these trains using induction.
It seems that there’s confusion between how the trains are powered (standard diesel locomotives) & the battery storage that is exclusively cargo to shuttle electrons, not connected to the train network. ❓❔
RAAH DENVER NOTICED. Is it perfect? No. But I can live in a walkable neighborhood and get public transport all the way from my apartment to the ski slopes and I think that's pretty neat.
The SunTrain movable battery thing is a dumb idea! It takes an already unworkable idea of storing grid level energy in batteries and adds trains to the mix. On their website, SunTrain claims their battery trains can serve as "mobile peakers". How do they think peaks work? They are universal. Each urban area has energy spikes, thus fixed grid storage makes way more sense in that respect. It's also a major health hazard. Think about how long it takes to put out an electric car battery fire. Now imagine a 20-car long battery train catching fire. This comment isn't meant to be comprehensive, so I'll leave it here, but it's nothing more than mere another way we have diligently come up to waste quickly dwindling stocks of rare minerals while additionally causing all the environmental destruction that's associated with mining. And at the same time, it will add more emissions into the atmosphere. What a win-win. I do wonder when comes the time when people realize the future is of much less of everything rather than same but electric. Overshoot is a real thing whether you acknowledge it or not.
Wasn’t Denver the destination for all those cattle drives to the railhead for slaughter? When I think about rail, Chicago and Denver come to mind. I rode RTD for a year when I didn’t have a car, they’re great!
I ride the RTD rail 3-4 days a week. It is horrible. Who picked the original trains? Someone from the 1800s? You have to climb steep stairs to get the the seating. Only one door that can be entered in a chair means no more than 2 electric wheel chairs can ride a train at any given time. Not to mention the fact that the operator has to come out and drop a platform for anyone to use it, then put it up again before the train moves again. Reverse all that when the passengers need to get off the train. I can't tell you how many times I've watched people struggle with their luggage, bike or worst of all ebike getting up those damn stairs. The upcoming route boards at each station that are supposed to tell you when the next 2 trains are leaving are suggestions at best if they are even functioning at all. Years long track maintenance slowing the trains down to 10 mph for miles. It's fun sitting in the train watching RUSH HOUR traffic passing the train you are on. We spent most of this last year with only once an hour service south from union station as they worked on the rails in the roads downtown. I have had more than one 4+ hour commute on RTD rail. When they have to close a line for maintenance mid route they put you on a shuttle bus. You get to wait for that bus at times, then wait 20-30 minutes before the bus starts moving only to get to wait again at the other end for the train to arrive and then for that train to start moving. Right now it is just about as good as it has ever been in the last few years and it takes over 2 hours to get from the northern terminus of the N line to 3/4 of the E line route south. I've been shuttled off of the trains with no warning more than once. That could be on me as I might have missed the bulletins at the station AND the announcements, but in at least one instance I'm pretty sure it was not me. I'd say they were less harsh than they could have been in their reporting.
The big issue with Denver Union Station: it's a culdesac! They ripped up the tracks heading out the south in the 1980s and built buildings in the old right of way. You'll never get fast or frequent front range rail while using Union Station.
Hey, Alan! Really cool to see you take another look at Denver's commuter rail! I'm one of the operators on the network. If you have any questions, feel free to hit me up. I'd be happy to tell you more about our railway, if there's anything you'd like to know.
Suntrain in particular poses a problem. It’s the antithesis of how railroads today operate. Unit trains are altogether discouraged and mixed carload freight is blocked together in order to achieve the goal of longer train lengths. I wouldn’t expect the sun train idea to get very far, especially considering the hazards of running these battery ladings in mixed traffic where right of way fires or grade crossing accidents could result in environmental catastrophe.
RTDs commuter rail (From what I've heard) has a really bad route and bad station infrastructure on the fringes of the network. Several of the stations are out of the way and have pretty bad passenger accomodations, and it basically "Runs from nowhere to nowhere." It lacks solid connections into the city while also making waiting at platforms in the winter hell due to lacking passenger enclosures. It could definitely be fixed, but in its current state its no wonder why very few people use it. A car is just more convenient still.
5:58 If I could threaten one of the biggest companies in the country to let me use their only link through a mountain range for a small town of 9000 people I'd be *SO* happy.
They're gonna use diesel trains to haul electricity?? I can't remember the name, but there was a fun "what if" story about covering the sahara in solar panels and exporting the electricity via ginormous battery ships. Logistically insane, but hilarious to think about nonetheless.
The B line won't be extended, it's going to get added to the Front Range corridor service, so 3 slow ass Amtrak trains, crawling down a barely maintained BNSF sub a day.
@@mrvwbug4423 the tracks allow for 90 mph travel speeds and there will be more than 3 trains a day once service gets more established. Why don’t you do more research instead of just stating blanket statements
@@MRey-t9uthis is part of the confusion RTD, FRPR & CDOT won’t clear up yet. Boulder County would only be about 8 years behind the last commuter line for FasTracks & ahead of a few other extensions, so not terrible overall (about 25 years from passage)-longer than desired but that’s why FF started much sooner (which will be more convenient for most people going to CUBoulder or downtown anyway).
Hey everyone! It's been awhile since the last video, this quick Urbanist video is about my most recent trip, but the larger video will be coming out next week before the holidays! 🤙
Knowing how cheap the class one railroads are i wouldnt be suprised if union p in response to this tunnel negotiation abandons the bit of track with the tunnel in it and then uses some alternate line into denver that probably adds three hours to the trip or they will cobble fuck a bunch of pantagrams onto a 30 year old sd 70
We got an Alan Fisher video before gta 6
Bureaucrats hold us back Science has outmoded the Sun train .. May the project fall in style
@@AMPProf Must have missed the part about right of way acquisition -- Fisher did mention it last, as though it were the least important consideration.
Awful -- you show some Computer Generated Imagery (CGI) of "SUNTRAIN" and claim that it will be 88% efficient at moving renewable energy north without bothering to say how or offering any evidence. Praise or criticism of FasTracks is beside the point -- the system as a whole has poor utilization and does little to mitigate abysmal average transit times using RTD. Commuters who live near light rail and don't have to use buses benefit, but that's about it. As for Mountain Rail, it's going nowhere fast, wasting $5 million appropriated by the General Assembly to "study" (rather, promote) a scheme impractical on its face. It would connect Union Station in downtown Denver with Arvada (where about 124,000 people live), but from there to the end of the line in Craig, there are only about 30,000 more people living near the route. The State owns the Moffat Tunnel, but not the ~200 miles of Union Pacific (UP) track Mountain Rail would have to use to get to Craig; only Steamboat Springs is a likely destination along the route. The plan is apparently to upgrade UP track (still used for freight) for commuter rail, which would be prohibitively expensive in and of itself. Mountain Rail would not serve the heavily traveled I-70 corridor; apparently one of the main reasons it was proposed was as a sop to Craig, which is losing its livelihood of mining coal, but other than the possibility of locating a maintenance facility there, it's hard to see how Mountain Rail would benefit the town, which isn't about to transform itself into a tourist destination. Colorado should be investigating passive maglev, but it's not.
The hate on RTD is frustration that's increased by how high quality the regional rail is and how intensely it's undermined by dumb land use
The commuter rail, with the exception of the B line is the high point of RTDs entire system. The light rail has crap frequency and the bus service is incredibly slow and outright dangerous to ride. The commuter rail is borderline on safety, last week on an A line train an extremely drunk homeless guy got on the train at Union without a ticket and the conductor didn't even attempt to kick him off the train, a conductor wearing a security badge so also supposed to be the "enhanced security" they promised but couldn't kick one drunk fare evader off the train.
You see that pretty much whenever urbanists talk about systems. Nothing short of high frequency, heavy-gauge trains being run on grade separated tracks with a sufficient amount of liveable space around it and at a low cost to ride ever seems to get deemed to be acceptable.Having high standards is great, but at the end of the day unless you're building a system from scratch with the ability to just put whatever you like in with whatever layout you want, that's not typically an option.
Which gets really frustrating because a lot of these systems are being designed well past the point where the stuff in the area was already built up, which means that the trains are somewhat at the mercy of the local development patterns, and in cases like Seattle, they have to fit through pre-existing tunnel that was built when the city had a population of roughly a quarter of what it was by the time the rail was actually built.
There's a lot of potentially great systems let down by poor land use! I live in the Bay Area so I know that firsthand. BART, Caltrain, and VTA Light Rail are all systems with flashes of greatness with utterly horrendous suburban land use around most of the stations, VTA especially.
3:46 Hey, that's my train! As a Conductor who works with my Enginner on the N-Line, we hear a lot of good comments from our passengers about our service. We keep it clean and have a good amount of daily riders for work or leasure. Especially for large events in town, it's not uncommon for our trains to be packed to the brim even with extra cars added.
So you litterally just don't allow Trash in the train
This is awesome
@@AMPProf remakibly we have a large team of cleaners on the N-Line who are contracted to do all station and trains, as a conductor i can even personally call them on the radio about spills or accidents.
A line is the Cadillac of RTD
Rode the N-line this weekend to the stock show!
So glad that we got a video on Denver, they did do a great job building out their system. Union Station is a gem that needs to be replicated across the country as well but fix the big issue (terminal station vs through running). Salt Lake City is trying to do something like that with the Rio Grande Plan.
highspeed rail between SLC and DEN when please.
@@Mecknificent Lets get the station ready in SLC then work on that!!
I hope SLC changes their hostile design language for future rail expansion. Waiting for the train anywhere in SLC in the winter is horrible. No shelter from wind or precipitation and long wait times between trains.
@@Spoofsc That's what the Rio Grande Plan wants to do.
I think one of the best ideas is to run 2 underground loops lines between Union station and Downtown with cross platform transfers between light rail and heavy rail. It would be expensive but also game changing for Denver
Some background to the RTD's lack of thru-running downtown: The reason why the rail system was built in the way it was built are complex but generally come down to each segment being built with limited funding at different times, each compromising to make their goals. RTD created its first plan for a fixed rail transit system in 1973. This relied heavily on two elevated "PRT" trunk lines running above Colfax and Broadway. Yes, PRT as in the automated on-demand pod system like Morgantown, WV. RTD's first light rail proposal was in 1980. This system looked similar to what we have today but used Broadway/16th for the trunk line and took MLK to Stapleton airport. The 1980 ballot measure failed 54% no to 46% yes. There were various studies throughout the 80's. The modern routing, using the Denver & Rio Grande Western right-of-way south of downtown, had taken hold by the late 1980s. At that time Phil Anchutz owned the D&RGW as part of his Southern Pacific group. The Southern Pacific was bankrupt and happy to offer a hometown price to RTD for the ROW. Once the Union Pacific bought the Southern Pacific in the 1990s, the freight railroads stopped cooperating with RTD. Denver was a very different place in 1990. The system's goal was to take commuters from packed residential areas of the suburbs and allow them to commute to job-dense areas downtown. The city had a population of around 450K instead of today's over 700k and was continuing to decline. There were areas of the suburbs that were just as dense as areas of Denver. South Broadway was considered a "bad neighborhood" full of empty storefronts and "corn" theaters. The D&RGW route bypassed these "bad areas", and the planners never considered that they would bounce back and become some of the most valuable areas of the city.
The first part of the light rail system proposed to be built ran from downtown to the former Stapleton airport along Welton/MLK. The MLK segment received too much community push back and was removed. The Welton segment alone, now perpendicular to the 16th Street Mall, was built first. The next segment was a natural continuation of that along the D&RGW line to I-25 & Broadway in 1992. The original system, therefore, didn't serve Union Station at all! At that time, the loft movement in LoDo was just kicking off, and Coors Field was under construction. The original system plus the central corridor was severely over-capacity on day 1. RTD had to reintroduce bus service on Broadway between Civic Center and I-25 & Broadway in the first week of operations due to overcrowding. Eventually, as a result of that overcrowding and the revitalization of LoDo, RTD planners realized they had to serve Union Station and shoehorned in the "Central Platte Valley" extension in 2002. This also served Union Station from the side because it was cheaper than building a subway. A major motivation was the air pollution potential caused by putting several major sports facilities near each other in the river valley. A night Rockies game, Broncos game, and tail end of the rush hour could coincide. It is even possible for an arena event to add to the smog. They considered rapid transit on Broadway, but when public hearings were held regarding the FasTracks plan, merchants objected to losing parking on Broadway and residents objected to running northbound trains on Lincoln. One other important feature of the D&RGW alignment was access to the Auraria campus, which Broadway does not offer. Oh, and there were a few offices in LoDo, most notably the RTD headquarters.
The original LRT line opened as a single project on October 7, 1994. The south segment was separately approved in 1992 and hurried up to catch up with the north segment. That is memorialized by the rough ride on the hurriedly constructed track between the Mariposa Division and the Bayaud Avenue crossing. Important to note that during the period from 1985 to about 1994, the City and County of Denver's objective was to remove all of the tracks from Union Station in favor of real estate development. What we have now is a compromise. The northern commuter rail lines built under FasTracks were planned separately and had to terminate at Union Station because that is where the freight lines that they are parallel to, went. Union Station was originally planned to have the trains on a lower level so a future thru connection could be built, but the FRA refused to allow the lines to end at the bottom of a hill and RTD was out of money, so they didn't argue too much. They then sold the land at the end of the tracks and built the two most valuable office buildings in the city where the train would need to go in a thru-running scenario, ensuring it would cost billions to fix later.
Thank you Supreme Leader Kim Jong-Un. Who knew you could be so knowledgeable on the history of the RTD
We shower you in our thanks, oh Supreme Leader Kim Jong-Un!
BRING BACK THE PODS
“Not that bad” is exactly how I describe our commuter-focused rail system. Unfortunately we’re missing leadership with vision for building upon what we have, but I’m hopeful that is starting to shift
I disagree, Debra Johnson’s focus on the test of the non rail system has kept RTD safe from bankruptcy that would have surely continued if Phil Washington had stayed in charge
@ preventing bankruptcy is quite different from leading with vision IMHO. As a former operator, I think of RTD as Regulated To Dysfunction, having experienced how & why things don’t work, from the inside.
Threat of bankruptcy may actually be a useful tool to get the state involved with some $ along with their coup attempt via the board, the CEOs boss.
@ I strongly disagree because although there are problems, before the recent maintence issues services have been improving. RTD has been having a strong couple years.
Thanks so much for visiting and making this video about our city! It was great to meet you and have you on our podcast :)
Denver man here - I'm very proud of Colorado's rail system. I do wish more people used it, though. For those who don't know, the rail system mostly orbits the main city of Denver. While there are lines that go into downtown proper, most of the rail infrastructure follows the local highway system. I really think that ridership would be improved by joining the SE part of Denver and Aurora to the main system, maybe following the Parker road route. There are a lot of walkable *places* that are not really walkable between one another, either due to distance or major roads. I am not a city planner in any way, but I often visit places where I think rail expansion would make sense across the city.
Are you thinking along Leetsdale & Parker? Similar to the 83 routes?
@@ttopero That is exactly what I was thinking about. Leetsdale / Parker from at least 9 mile to Auraria, or Union Station. Ideally it would go farther down Parker road, but that's generally what I think.
@ there are some of us who are working on options for getting a route along Speer at least to DUS from CO Blvd. Then we can extend it to 9 mile. Even that’s likely years away. Beyond 225 is another generation given the density of Parker. I personally would love a rail route from Federal Blvd to E-470 via the set of stroads we’re talking about, but not likely
@@ttopero It's good to know people are at least thinking about it. RE: the Federal Blvd route, would it follow from where Speer terminates up on the hill and go North to 470, or where would that intersection be? May be far away, but it's always interesting to hear about.
@@Strykenine a BRT is planned for Federal Blvd right now that’s probably as much as it will ever get, especially between 20th & 50th Ave’s due to narrower R.O.W.-a challenge limiting full BRT in that area by sharing lanes with car traffic instead of required bus only lanes. Going beyond Federal probably doesn’t make sense for the area as an extension of a SE line along Leetsdale.
Denver lore: In the summer of 1858, during the Pike's Peak Gold Rush, a group of gold prospectors from Lawrence, Kansas, established Montana City as a mining town on the banks of the South Platte River in what was then western Kansas Territory, on traditional lands of Cheyenne and Arapaho. This was the first historical settlement in what later became the city of Denver. But the site faded quickly, and by the summer of 1859 it was abandoned in favor of Auraria (named after the gold-mining town of Auraria, Georgia) and St. Charles City. In November that year, General William Larimer and Captain Jonathan Cox, both land speculators from eastern Kansas Territory (Colorado was once a part of Kansas Territory), placed cottonwood logs to stake a claim on the bluff overlooking the confluence of the South Platte River and Cherry Creek, across the creek from the existing mining settlement of Auraria, and on the site of the existing townsite of St. Charles. Larimer named the townsite Denver City to curry favor with Territorial Governor James W. Denver. Larimer hoped the town's name would help it be selected as the county seat of Arapahoe County, but unbeknownst to him, Governor Denver had already resigned from office. The location was accessible to existing trails and was across the South Platte River from the site of seasonal encampments of the Cheyenne and Arapaho. The site of these first towns is now occupied by Confluence Park near downtown Denver. Edward W. Wynkoop came to Colorado in 1859 and became one of the city's founders. Wynkoop Street in Denver is named after him. Denver became home to the very first Chipotle Mexican Grill in 1993. Elvis Presley once flew in his private jet from Memphis to Denver just for a sandwich. The Colorado Gold Mine Company Steakhouse delivered 22 Fool’s Gold Loafs, a sandwich containing a jar of peanut butter, a jar of grape jelly & one pound of bacon, to Elvis and his friends. They dined with champagne & returned home without leaving the airport.
The 16th Street Mall in Denver was designed by master architect IM Pei, who also designed the JFK Library in Boston, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, and the Louvre's iconic glass pyramid. The stone used for the Colorado State Capitol is one of the rarest stones in the world, rose onyx. Once called Beulah red marble, the stone is actually not marble, but rather is metamorphosed limestone tinged with iron oxide. Also referred to as Colorado rose onyx, the stone was discovered in a small deposit in the town of Beulah (near Pueblo) in 1893. The Beulah quarry remains the only known source of the stone in the world. In fact, the adornment of the Colorado State Capitol’s interior depleted the entire known supply of rose onyx. Denver was originally selected the host of the 1976 Winter Olympics (the other bids were Sion, Switzerland, Tampere, Finland, and Vancouver-Garibaldi, Canada). 1976 being the centennial of the state of Colorado and of course the US bicentennial. Organizers in Denver organizing committee had promised that the Games would only cost 14 million to be run, with Governor John Love stating that 5 million would come from taxpayers. However, rising costs and logistics soon came to plague the city, which included an idea of having bobsled events be held in Lake Placid, NY. A grassroots movement formed against having the Games in Denver. Later that year in November, CO voters rejected partially funding the games in a referendum, and for the first time a city awarded an Olympics rejected them. The IOC then offered Whistler, Canada outside Vancouver the games (which would of course eventually host the 2010 Winter Olympics with Vancouver) but they declined due to a change in government in elections, Sion declined, Salt Lake City offered but pulled its bid, then Lake Placid, and finally in Feb 1973, the IOC transferred the games to Innsbruck, Austria who hosted in 1964. The sculptor of Blucifer at Denver International Airport was Luis Jiménez. The sculpture was commissioned in 1992 for 300K but wasn't erected until 2008. The original proposal was for a bison stampede. But developers thought this was inappropriate because the bison was driven to near extinction. So he proposed a mustang instead, as it's a symbol of the West and how people used to travel long distances on horses! He was inspired by his own stallion he had growing up, an Appaloosa named Blackjack. Tragically as you mentioned, this sculpture would cause the death of Luis in 2006 as while working on it in his studio in New Mexico, one of the sculpture's three sections came loose from a hoist, pinning him against a steel support beam and severing an artery. He bled to death. He died at age 65. Friends and family of him were conflicted as to whether or not to continue the sculpture. But to avoid having to pay Denver for missing another deadline and failing to deliver, they chose to finish it with the help of the artist's staff and professional racecar painters.
Glad you gave Denver another chance! Besides RTD, it's worth mentioning the state's public intercity bus service Bustang which began in 2015! I know we have the urge to compare RTD commuter rail to a system like SEPTA since they share things in common, but it's a bit unfair to do that. SEPTA is fully electrified because of overhead infrastructure its predecessors built, on top of the fact it just cut its diesel services completely instead of electrifying them. While RTD built an electrified commuter rail system from scratch with four commuter lines opening in the late 2010s or in 2020, which is quite admirable that a whole modern regional rail system was built not just in the late 2010s but in a western North American city you don't think about when it comes to transit. And as stated in your first Denver vid, SEPTA has the advantage of having historic walkable town centers around stations, while again, because RTD's system is much newer, that wasn't the case at the first for them. But as they say, if you build it, they will come, and that's exactly what is happening as shown here. TOD projects are popping up across RTD, and as you mentioned, it's great that the A Line is so popular. Not only does it take you direct to the airport's Jeppesen Terminal, but 40th Ave & Airport Blvd-Gateway Park, Peoria, and Central Park act as bus hubs, and the Central Park redevelopment area is where the old Stapleton International Airport used to be. Also, all RTD regional rail stations have level boarding! The LIRR also gets a lot of slack from urbanists because of land use, but the system too has many benefits, and the land use has been improving. You have to remember that the LIRR is a 24/7 system, much of it electrified, its main-line triple-tracked and quad-tracked in certain sections, have a great portion of grade-separation like the elevated Babylon Branch (which was a megaproject from the 1950s to the 1980s to elevate the branch's stations on viaducts and now all of the Babylon Branch is grade-separated), all stations are high-level, and serves different important centers like airports, sports venues, malls and universities. For isolated Fire Island communities, the Montauk Branch acts as a lifeline, with ferry connections through shuttles to/from stations. Certain stations are bus hubs, like Hicksville, Mineola, Hempstead, and Patchogue. SCT redesigned their network in 2023, with timed transfers and most having 30-minute headways. Places like Patchogue, Riverhead, Babylon, and Huntington have bikeshare, and they’ve been building residential TOD at stations like Ronkonkoma, Patchogue, and Wyandanch. On top of the residential TOD north of the station, Ronkonkoma hub transforms its huge southern lot, with a relocated airport terminal to the north with a dedicated pedestrianized corridor from the terminal to the station (yup, no taxi or peoplemover, just walk from the station!). In addition to a hotel, life sciences hub, and a convention center. Another nice thing about the LIRR, similar to the DC Metro's Arlington Cemetery stop, if you have a loved one buried at one of the cemeteries in the Pinelawn area, the cemeteries have their own dedicated station. The station saw 13,885 riders in 2023.
Nice to see a brief mention of the Winter Park Express, more people should be aware there's a way to hit the ski slopes by train if they're in Denver! Starting at $19 one-way for adults (in 2024) from Union Station AND it leaves you closer to the slopes than driving, it's a win-win! If it wasn't for David Moffat’s vision to build the Denver, Northwestern & Pacific Railway across, or through, the Continental Divide to Salt Lake City, Denver may not have grown into the important economic engine of the West that it is today and would've been left behind. The 6.2-mile Moffat Tunnel is such an engineering feat, and great to see it getting the love that it deserves. The tunnel shaved 173 miles off the trip from Denver to Salt Lake City! Denver awarded David Moffat with a solid-silver cup with a marble base called the Moffat Cup (which is now on display at Denver's Union Station). Moffat poured his all into making Denver connected to the rest of the western states by train, and although his railway wasn't completed until after his death (he passed in 1911), Denver recognized Moffat's efforts to put them on the map and so they presented him that in 1904 simply out of love. The cup is huge at 230 pounds of pure silver and marble, and it stands at nearly three and a half feet tall! David Moffat was unable to raise sufficient funds to build the tunnel before he died in 1911, but the fight for the tunnel continued in his honor! In 1920, a bill was passed by the state legislature to build new tunnels, but other regions blocked it because they didn't want Denver to gain an advantage in commerce. Blocking this would backfire big time when Pueblo was devastated by a flood in 1922 and Denver took this opportunity to say they'll vote for emergency funding for Pueblo in return for bonds for the tunnel. Eight hundred men ended up working round the clock for three and a half years, excavating 3 billion pounds of rock, equal to 1,600 freight trains of 40 cars each. The tunnel's pioneer bore doubled as an aqueduct that carried water across the divide to Denver, increasing the city's water supply by 30 percent. Alignment surveys were performed at night to avoid solar aberration due to different air densities and temperatures at the survey points. When holed through, the tunnel's lateral alignment varied only 1 1/4 inches, a surveying feat. A small pilot tunnel was bored parallel with and 75 feet (23 m) south of the main tunnel to facilitate the work and was eight feet high and eight feet wide. The pilot tunnel was officially holed through in February 1927. The blast of dynamite was set off by Calvin Coolidge pressing a key in DC, and the program was broadcast by radio from the heart of the mountain. The railroad tunnel was holed through in July 1927 and formally opened in February 1928.
I really hope they electrify Moffat tunnel. As far as I know, Moffat tunnel's capacity is severely limited by the headways between trains, as the tunnel needs to be ventilated due to the diesel emissions. It'd make much more sense to electrify the tunnel to get better performance out of it. Maybe this could even be the start of more widespread electrification of mainlines.
Expensive to have an entire switching operation at both ends of a tunnel, dedicated crews, dedicated locomotives, probably not enough space overhead in the tunnel for electric lines, and a huge amount of transmission infrastructure to pull uphill 300+ axle freights.
Make some battery heavy hybrid diesel electrics and keep the generator off in the tunnel.
God I hope so
The one time I took the skeet train, the tunnel ventilators were broken for like 3 hours and we sat on the siding on one of the best ski days I've ever seen. I totally missed half a day skiing because they couldn't give the dam fans to work.
@@SethMethCS Correct, as the Milwaukee Road found out with their electrified lines through the Rockies. A better solution is mandatory use of EPA Tier 4 locomotives now and eventually hybrid locomotives by the 2030's.
I think the main holdup to electrification of that sub isn't moffat (which I think I remember seeing somewhere is high enough), but the other 29 tunnels between denver and moffat (which are extremely not). Gonna need to do it at some point, though.
In all fairness to Canada, RTD may be electrified "mainline rail", but it serves the same purpose as the metros, subways and light rail in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, which are also substantial. They all gave fairly broad reach out to outlying areas as well as the city cores, and are all electrified. That's on top of quite extensive non-electrified operations in Toronto (and to some extent Montreal). It's kind of petty to split hairs on the exact method of propulsion that allows people to have relatively similar mobility.
It’s also just not true. The Deux-Montagnes line in Montreal was an electrified mainline that opened in 1918 by CN. It doesn’t exist anymore because it is getting replaced by an automated metro, the REM.
@@alexandredumas-richer5476Alan likes to punch down on Canadian railways even if it has its merits but US always gonna be better than Canada
Toronto is also Electrifying 176 miles of its Suburban Rail system as we speak
Alan - fantastic video.
If you ever want more context; I was a signal engineer for Sound Transit in Seattle, and one of my best friends is now with CDOT working on some of these very things... :)
I was shocked to know you knew of the fact that CDOT owns the Moffat... Hey, maybe Tennessee Pass will come back. Or something else...
Having both a passenger train to Craig and on the Tennessee pass would be great. Maybe sometime when I'm back in the area I'll have to check out some of the narrow gauge stuff.
Also a Seattle video will be coming soon too, I was just in Portland and Seattle after my Denver stay.
Hey look, its me the friend that works at CDOT. I'm passenger rail adjacent but not in the rail group. There are good things going on. My personal opinion is that the state of Colorado and developers in Colorado still don't understand what TOD is. The idea that you can replicate the most vibrant, and expensive, areas of Denver that are the historic streetcar suburbs is still shocking. Unfortunately stuff also seems to get studied to death with minimal funding being given to actually implementing the results of the study. The general hope is that once one train state funded intercity rail train gets running regularly that more will follow. The mountain rail project (trains to Craig & Steamboat) is also entirely state funded which is making the process a lot faster and trains will be running year round sooner than front range passenger rail.
Now if we can just get people to let go of the idea that every train station needs to be a park and ride with hundreds of spaces that typically go unused, life will be easier and more train based
I’m an engineer with DTO (the company that runs the A, B, and G lines for RTD), and I’m glad that we’re getting some complements about the commuter rail system. I’m actually sitting on the Ward tail track right now lol
Thank you so much for posting a nice video about Denver. I live here and I frequently use the train lines. Honestly, I simply never understood why there was so much criticism because they were some of the best in the country. There are also a few big projects like east colfax bus rapid transit running straight through the densest corridor in Denver, as well as the front range rail you mentioned. Great work as always
Let's hope this gets more widespread across the whole country. My town is on par with Canada and that is sad
Canada is getting 176 miles of electrified track soon so, the bar is going up.
@@Absolute_Zero7Canada had mainline electrification too if it didn’t get converted for REM
As a Canadian, it's also sad because the vast majority of us live in 3 mega-regions... Cascadia (Lower Mainland), Alberta (Edmonton-Calgary corridor) and Ontario-Quebec (Windsor to Quebec City but mainly Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal) and those regions could use fast, frequent, electric regional and high speed services. All have planned for years but never actually built anything which to me is even sadder... Good intentions but no real plans...
While it's true, it isn't very relevant because it just reflects the unusual choice of technology Denver used. Usually such regional systems in he US and Canada are light rail or metro such as the light rail in Calgary, Dallas, Porland, San Diego or Metro like BART in the Bay area. And of course the older lines in Denver are LRT. Usually mainline trains are only used on existing legacy track. But Denver just went in a different direction with the expansion of its system which is mostly just a quirk rather than some sort of achievement. Most of the light rail systems in Canada (and the US) are fully electrified. And Canada has several electrified LRT systems in smaller cities than Greater Denver. So yeah... if you do something very unusual then by definition you're unlikely to have much company.
My state has some electrification but the commuter rail still uses fucking diesels and is planning on copping out with battery electrics. Wallahi.
Thanks for talking about RTD! We could definitely benefit from more TOD.
Since 2014, RTD moved Union Station, built the W, A, B, G, R, N-Line, SERE, Flatiron Flyer, and the Metro ride. Ridership in 2013 was around 104M, current ridership is what, 61M. "More TOD?" To do what? Decrease ridership? TOD does not equal ridership.
rm transit did a good video on why there flopping ridership wise
So happy to see Denver get some focus!
RTD reason to drive. I stopped taking the rail because of service interruptions, homeless on the trains and the amount of break in’s at park and ride. Most of my co workers have stopped taking the rail for the same reasons
B line extension mentioned!!1!!ONE!!
It hasn't happened in large part because nobody asked BNSF for an estimate before the ballot initiative, and they want _way_ more money than RTD expected. If you want to know more about that cluster, I recommend the Ghost Train podcast by CPR. Also if you're curious about Colorado transportation, you should follow Nathaniel Minor's reporting.
Nandert and Alan Fisher upload in the same week 😃😃😃
Wow I thought I had a good idea of what was happening in Colorado, but all this was new to me. .
0:47 you mention 2fort, but that honestly looks more like Rust from MW2.
looks like tf2 pipeline but regardless I appreciate unexpected tf2 references
Denver is one of the top cities if I was forced to live in America. Nice size, seems to be more forward thinking in general and with transit. And great access to nature
Might be moving to the Denver area soon, and I really would like that area to have good transit
THANK YOU! As a Denverite who commutes almost exclusively by Bike, Train, and Bus I think our system is pretty miraculous all things considered. Too many people in Denver think very little of the RTD.
If you're planning on talking about through-running the main train hall of Union Station, it's effectively impossible due to the development around Union boxing it in. Me and a couple other people have been working on plans to divert the RTD trains to where the light rail platforms are now, which would free up extra capacity for intercity trains in the existing train hall
I've always wondered if they could close Wewatta Street and divert the trains there. That street should be closed to car traffic anyways.
Just took the ski train to winter park yesterday and it was great! As a Denverite I would love to see us bargain for not only a train to steamboat but option for season passes for frequent commuters.
Trains full of batteries to transport energy? That has some serious Factorio vibes.
I've heard of Factorio players shipping around trains full of 500-degree steam from their nuclear power plants to power mining outposts, rather than running power lines out to them. Yes, I know that sounds stupid, but there's nothing in the game preventing it from working.
A diesel train carrying batteries is pretty hilarious.
I‘m an expert in R&D for power grids, and the Suntrain is beyond goofy. These batteries would be so expensive that with the low electricity prices in the US, there is no chance for coming close to profitability. It will be cheaper both in a macroeconomical and a business perspective to keep the status quo. And compared to many others in the industry, I am really open for unconventional solutions!
Huh? They’re moving the excess renewable energy produced in Pueblo to Denver via battery because transmission lines won’t be built…. It’s not to save money it’s to lower emissions from non renewables and share excess energy. I think your macroeconomical status quo is confused.
The United States also uses ethanol derived from corn.🌽🚘🤷♂️
I don't know about petty. It's just trivia which is often somewhat trivial lol.
TBH, batteries on trains doesn't make much sense to me unless we're talking about trips from city to city where you can get the train going while plugged in and just use a few batteries to keep it going the rest of the way, or possibly get it started again if you need to.
That being said, if there is damage to the wires, that can cause problems.
When you throw lots of subsidies at every step (diesel, wind, solar, rail, batteries, mining, R&D, etc), even things that lose money can get created LOL. With demand for the electricity & the production source being disconnected physically, it might make more sense to pay extra (even at a loss) for the margin of electricity needed while the lines get built than to deal with ramifications of insufficient supply. There’s little capacity in Colorado for hydrocarbon generation & nuclear doesn’t seem on the table, so it’s a bridge as “natural gas/methane is supposed to be I guess.
I've become obsessed with Suntrain over the last few days. I work for an electrical/communications infrastructure company, and the people at my work think it's cool too!
We at SunTrain think you're cool too.
Stupid idea meant to steal tax dollars.
I'm currently stuck in a suburb that does have a light rail connection to Denver. But I've never been able to use it. They only show up 2 times in the morning and come back 2 times in the evening. No weekends either.
Also doesn't help that it's a 40 minute walk to the station, which is a giant park and ride.
That sucks, we have something similar to that around here, it's literally commuter rail, but in our case, it shares tracks with both Amtrak and regular freight trains, so the limited number of times a day was pretty much inevitable.
Your description suggests you’re in an exurban like Evergreen that has a 2-coach route for commuting only that connects to the light rail. There’s no rail that only runs in a single direction 2 times in the morning & reverses for 2 times later in the day. FF2 is more like this now but FF1 covers this. Can you elaborate?
This is what I thought, there is no way you are connected to rail with two trips since that is nonexistent in Denver.
Love that you mentioned Canada has no electrified passenger heavy rail lines. After the DM line in Montreal was turned into the REM project there's none left. Of course Metrolinx always flaunts their planned electrified network in Toronto but it's been almost ten years and I haven't seen one overhead wire! Thanks for keeping it real!
I think Canada may still have one freight electric railway operation in Labrador but I'm not sure if it is still in service.
Metrolinx is actually about to actually start work on that they have been doing the Prep Work for a couple years, I think the Wires are supposed to start going up on the Lakeshore line next year
As a Salt Lake City shill, I enjoy shitting on Denver. And the RTD certainly has major issues regarding maintenance, funding, and operations (30-60 min frequencies on Light Rail) that seriously need to be solved. But that doesn't stop it being the best system for a plains city.
I also have major issues with Denver Union and it feels emblematic of American transit projects as a whole (fancy station that doesn't get the service it deserves because of budget overruns) that Salt Lake City can certainly learn from in regards to a certain plan.
DUS is separate from transit & rail operations. One is a real estate play that hosts services while the others are operations located near the building.
we're so back.
I'm pretty skeptical of the front range rail project after having chatted with a couple of Amtrak conductors about it, they're under the impression that it's going to to just use old equipment on the existing BNSF front range sub. So a 3x a day train crawling down the barely maintained and derailment prone BNSF front range sub at less than 30mph. I remember the demo train from last year, it took them 90 minutes to get from Union to Longmont without making any stops. You could probably take an RTD bus and get there quicker. If they can pull a miracle and get the line double tracked and upgraded to at least 90mph speeds and get some decent rolling stock and up the frequency to more than 3 trains per day then it could be a game changer, but anything less than that will just be a flop that nobody will use.
That’s why advocacy organizations like ColoRail & Greater Denver Transit are pushing for a full system with 12 trains in each direction daily, from the beginning of the full build out. It might not be 12 trains on each segment (starting with the NW line first presumably) but once Ft Collins to Pueblo is open, 12 trains.
@@ttopero For a project that's greenlit there's certainly not much info out there, like where are they going to get rolling stock. This also applies to the upcoming service to Steamboat Springs. I'm not expecting electrified lines, though I'm sure if that was feasible cost wise CO DOT would've pushed for it.
@@mrvwbug4423 Rolling stock is not inconsequential, but the alignment & stations are much higher priority with less options & much higher expense. There have been musings by politicians & bureaucrats about different consist types (hydrogen) but it’s still less important than the R.O.W. so far. Although not favorable, there’s also existing cars that could be refurbished for a first generation of FRPR.
It’s so annoying living In Nederland with no access without I70 to middle park area, while being so close. A station in Rollinsville (again) would be a game changer! And so much easier than taking a bus down to Denver to take the zeypher. Great Video.
• What’s the per ride ridership cost of light rail? ($16+… It would be cheaper to just do free handy-van rides for disabled and uber rides for everyone else.)
• What’s the average speed of the W Line? (23 mph… a door-to-door 11-12 minute car ride is 45 minutes via Light Rail.)
• Why didn’t the ski train turn a profit? (Because trains are heavy and expensive to run for people transit outside of super-densely, packed urban environments.)
• If automated driving becomes a thing, won’t you likely see the end of light rail within 7-10 years?
Side note:
With the conversion of the line to Deux Montagnes from mainline to REM (suburban train), Canada indeed has 0 km of electrified mainline railway…
I forget which subreddit I mentioned it in, but I basically said verbatim what you said about how it's easy for municipalities to make better use of their land around stations, than it is to build out new trains lines. Anyways, as a transplant from Philly that moved to Denver, I appreciate your content coverage of RTD and the Denver area. Thank you Alan!
DENVER MENTION!!!!!!
Hey thanks for the video on Denver's transit. One thing I wanted to mention was Denver's Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) development. I actually thought that's what this video was going to be about lol. They started construction a few months ago on E Colfax and there are plans to have BRT lanes on Colfax, Colorado Blvd and Federal Blvd. It will reduce Colfax to one lane traffic in each direction and reduce a lot of street parking along the way.
Great video Alan. That would be amazing for the Moffat route to be a testbed for the return of heavy-haul electric freight operations and new passenger service as well. I'm glad to see the commuter rail lines getting ridership and it seems the development will come just like the NYC subway, I'm thinking how when the 7 was built in the early 1900s people thought they were crazy for buiilding the subway out to what was fields at the time and how there's no shortage of dense development along that line. Wouldn't rail ROWs be a great place for putting those new transmission lines without having to plow through forests and wetlands and such and you could electrify the trains at the same time with the countless benefits that offers to both the rail operator, the passengers riding (hopefully) and the communitiies it runs through.
I'm really hoping Colorado is turning the corner on urban planning and to smarter thoughts around transportation.
thank you for revisiting this! i always thought i was insane for praising our system, and that its online reputation did not accurately reflect reality very well
Surely electrifying the rail line would solve both issues?
that's where I thought he was going with that 😅
American exceptionalism strikes again. How about putting the electrons into batteries onto a train into the city, vs electrifying the line and using that as both transmission & power the trains?
@@physh Adding centenaries to power the trains is more practical than using batteries. It's far more efficient as you lose relatively little in terms of energy running the power through the wires versus having to carry those batteries all the time. Plus, those batteries take up space, and you get a bit more passengers on trains that don't have to carry the batteries. Admittedly, the same could be said for fuel, but that's a lateral move.
There's also the whole issue that the elements that go into batteries aren't cheap. Using batteries for things like trains that could just as easily be plugged in, means that we don't have the materials for things like EVs that can't be plugged in.
@@physh How tf is catenary wires, something 99% of the rest of the world uses, "American exceptionalism?"
@@physhthat’s actually Suntrain’s strategy as I understand it: charge batteries from renewable sources & train them to where they can add electricity to the grid. Not sure if you’re also suggesting running battery trains off those batteries or powering catenary from those batteries too❓❔
I live in boulder but I still take the train to and from the airport when i can. Last time I took the train i forgot my bag in the overhead rack(d'oh!)and the conductor unlocked the train and helped me look for it! There are definitely some bright spots in this flawed system, and i really hope it gets the funding it needs to be truly world class.
Oh man, wish I had known you were in Denver so I could say hi! Really glad to see another video on Denver's transit (between you and RMTransit we've gotten quite a few videos this year haha!) Frequency is 100% RTD's biggest issue right now, I'm really hoping that the new board will help get that up more than it is right now. Also we're finally building BRT on Colfax (actual BRT not the fake BRT the Flatiron Flyer is) so that'll make it a lot nicer to navigate the core of the city on transit.
In the January 2025 schedules there will be some more frequency restorations, but the operator shortage continues, so the system will still be below 2019 levels.
I wanna love RTD light rail more but over the summer the e-line's 10 mph slow zones and 1 train per hour frequency broke me. Had to move to cap hill and get a bike. Now I only ever take the bus.
I still hate most of the stations, but overall, I'm glad to see it being invested in.
I found this quite an informative video! I didn't know about the Suntrain project. I look forward to seeing how it develops... or if this is the first domino that would lead to the electrification of the Denver-Pueblo freight rail line.
Thanks for the video!
Yk its a good day when i see a banger drop
I heard "through the grapevine" some time ago, that the Moffat Tunnel lease is why UP has never fully abandoned the Tennessee Pass line. It's their relief valve should traffic pick up or if negotiating a new lease for the tunnel falls through. It would crack me up if UP simply walked away from that line and the tunnel, and stuck it to the state. After the lease is up, the railroad is under NO obligation to renew it.
Uh Canada is currently in the process of Electrifying almost 100 Miles of Track around Toronto mainly the Lakeshore, Kitchener-Stouffville, and Barrie lines
Haha. Honest and perfect overview of RTD. Commuter rail AMAZING! Bus reliability and frequency complete SH*T!!!!! Trying to use both of them to get anywhere? Good freaking luck not getting stranded in the freezing cold for 30-60 minutes.
One problem with fast racks being a relic of 2000s planning I feel sceptical for the front range rail plan and NIMBYs
Yup, G line got NIMBYd and will never be extended to Golden. Amtrak is rescuing the B line by making it part of the front range corridor, which still means no frequent service to Boulder.
@@mrvwbug4423boomers aren’t going to be all-powerful forever. There’s hope that Gen X will become the leadership to tour it around so the Millennials can get the credit for taking it across the finish line😉
@@ttopero I don't get why boomers hate railway electrification so much
@@ianhomerpura8937 I think it’s more about being a highway & car-dependent generation than hating rail electrification or even train travel itself. They’ve had the power for much longer than most generations & have had an outsized impact that will take generations to recover from. But it’s possible!
@@ttopero I have zero confidence in Gen X doing anything constructive in leadership. Gen X is the vast majority of the MAGA cult.
I love how I knew whose video this was replying to within the first 5 seconds
Never change Alan, your brand of humor and snark is well loved
You should also do a video on the Tennessee Pass Line
Until 2020, Montréal Canada had 32km (or roughly 20 US miles of electrified service. While originally started in late 2010s early 2020s, the system was rebuilt in 1995 with new 25kcv AC electrification and totally new rolling stock.
In 1983, BC Rail opened a 132km (82 US miles) Tumbler Ridge line from Pringe george to ironically coal mines to the north. After CN bought it circa 2003-2004 , it quickly replaced locos with its prefered 1950s diesels and tore down electrification. (not sure how it copes with the long tunnels built for electrification).
Thanks for this Alan! I saw that piece and I didn't like it nor do I like the author, he rubs me the wrong way. I began following because of your coverage of transit in and around Philadelphia where I grew up.
Thanks also, for being a credible source. All the best Edward
LETS GOOOOO MY CITY MENTIONED LMAO
😂😂 it should not take 10 years to build roughly over 100 miles of line. Thats the biggest problem with the US, things take wayyy to long to build and go over cost for no reason.
The main issue is they don’t run enough to support speed of travel. We need more frequent pick up times.
This is exciting. I would take a train from COS to Denver and on to Steamboat Springs. Possibly someone could start a bus tour to Colorado River Headwaters? I would do that, also.
suntrain is doing a great idea and 80 percent effeciency isn't that bad but I think they could improve that but still it's a great concept to move energy around when we don't have enough power lines around
I love the RTD light rail and rail system and even the bus system as NIMBYs ended up canning the extension to Boulder, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand why they made the Westminster rail stop not connect to the RTD bus that stops in Westminster. This forces the only method to get from Denver to Boulder to be a pure bus ride
1:23 Wasn’t expecting to see an Omaha Track locomotive lol
RTD is a decent system! The annoyance for me is the NIMBYs that don't want the development around it that can give it great ridership. Good callout that the rail can be the hardest thing to build though, development can always come later.
I'm personally under the impression that RTD needs a radial line connecting the D, W, and G lines. As of right now, one would have to take one line all the way to Union Station to get to another line when the more convenient option is to drive or just not go at all.
There's not enough riders to justify the expense. There are buses from Boulder to Golden. What jobs are people heading to that would require this line? Why would you need this line?
@KP-zy1ke There are jobs all over the damn city, it's less about just jobs, but more about connecting communities, students, families, etc.
Yes, there are buses, but they regularly get stuck in traffic and don't have their own lanes. Plus -- from what I've seen -- the ridership on most bus lines is abysmal when someone can take a car.
As a Pizza Delivery Driver downtown (read on the road 3-4 hours a day), the passenger rail is great, barely an inconvenience. The freight rail, however, has blocked an entire neighborhood’s worth of at-grade crossings for hours at a time and added 30+ minutes to my delivery times more often than I’d like. But the biggest problem by far is the fact that every single foot of curbside in some places is used for parking and constantly in-use, too. It’s really hard to drive when I have to pull out into oncoming traffic to see if anyone is coming and then park illegally two blocks away to make my delivery. Less parking downtown! More loading areas! More transit!
Honestly, my endgame is when transit gets so good I can make deliveries on foot faster than my car.
RTD isn’t a public commuter system so much as an unreliable cluster of trains that come whenever they want. Among passengers you’re guaranteed people so strung out on something they don’t realize they’re staring at you with pupils the size of mars while baring their teeth at you. The stations are always kinda uncomfortable and shady. The rail infrastructure is there but that’s about it, no security at the stations, no consistent schedule, not even a PA system to announce delays. It’s a jumbled mess of trains claiming to be a fully functioning public transit system
I’ve ridden it many rimes and never had a problem with people riding it. Don’t use it if you don’t like it.
@ some people don’t have the privilege of having the choice of not using public transit. Maybe a better solution is clean up Denver and start spending tax payer money on things that legitimately benefit the tax payer instead of spending millions on extra toll lanes on the highway that people have to pay for anyway even though it’s funded with tax payer money
A lot of frustration here for north Denver metro cities (I live in Longmont) who have been paying taxes for many years for a light rail system that was promised to us but only delivered to Denver and south Denver. Terrible mismanagement of the whole project. Lawsuits are being considered.
If you're wondering why Alan was bringing up power companies working with railroads, that used to be a way a lot of the old Interurbans and streetcars got built. Now I'm not advocating for just bringing those back, because with modern traffic they'd be screwed if not built with some separated right of ways a la green grass tramtracks like in Europe. The thing is if they're talking they might be able to talk the freight railroads into electrification and into building parallel transit lines to spend electricity they otherwise wouldn't use.
That was the case here in the Philippines as well. The prewar streetcar lines in Manila were operated by the Manila Electric Rail and Light Company, or MERALCO. But after the streetcars were all destroyed during the Battle of Manila in 1945, MERALCO abandoned the rail business altogether.
The gravity point is center for flyings. A jet wings on high golden meltings. One time only please.
I don’t see the tunnel being halt hostage.
UP has a lot more leverage here than you think. UP has nearly 0 on line traffic origination, and doesn’t run that high of frequency.
It wouldn’t be that hard for UP to just straight up abandon it. Shift traffic north to the transcon, and keep going on as normal.
Thanks for naming and shaming Canada, we need the kick in the arse. To be fair, Ontario is doing a big electrification project right now to parts of the GO regional rail network. Our government in Alberta though, is planning a regional rail network (which is awesome), but they will almost definitely make it diesel locomotives not EMU's, because they're all in the pocket of the oil companies. Still, intercity rail is better than none I guess.
0:07. That was really mean.☹Especially since this person is certainly a supporter of electrifying Canada's commuter rail. As an Austinite, 3:32 was well-deserved, however. 3:45 is a really important point, but there are still better and worse places to build transit (e.g. better through land that can be redeveloped, worse along highways, which block access to stations).
Let's hope this will be a
Cincinnati L
and a
Denver W
We use to have 45km of it til they closed the two-mountains line in montreal lol
The state of Colorado is actually forcing TOD around train and frequent bus routes as well. Colorado is doing a lot of good things. There is even a decent chance the front range service will be 12 trips per day at 90 mph on upgraded and expanded BNSF/UP infrastructure designed and built to actually handle all the passenger and freight trains that are anticipated to be using the joint ROW
Edit: thank you for recognizing all the hard work Colorado has been doing, I think the good things should be talked about more so that we can try to replicate the positive wins elsewhere
The amount of infrastructure work that 90mph on that corridor would require is insane. BNSF front range subdivision is a poorly maintained, single track, 20-30mph freight sub and not a main line. It's had like 3 derailments in the last few years one of which took out a viaduct in August.
@mrvwbug4423 there will definitely be a lot of infrastructure needed but the state is likely to put a sales tax issue on the ballot in 2026 in hopes to raise funds to do that regardless of what is going on with the FRA, they could probably raise like $2-3 billion that way, and CDOT is heavily involved so there is always a chance the state puts money in their budget as well. they are also studying 6 & 12 trips per day at 79 mph in an alternatives analysis, I’m hoping they decided to go with 12 trips at 90 mph though.
Forget major NA cities building large transit systems. Alan videos without Vulfpeck to play us out, now THAT’S bizarre.
If electrified I really hope it’s actually overhead electrification instead of battery locomotives
Batteries are a particularly dumb idea, especially right now when we're needed the components to electrify things like EVs that can't be run on overhead wires. I don't think that it's a bad idea to have a little bit of battery power for emergencies, but in general, the primary source of power should come from wires. At least until and unless somebody can figure out how to power these trains using induction.
It seems that there’s confusion between how the trains are powered (standard diesel locomotives) & the battery storage that is exclusively cargo to shuttle electrons, not connected to the train network. ❓❔
My dad went to university in Denver and he tells me that they had planned for HSR back in the day but when Reagan came in they sold the allocated land
RAAH DENVER NOTICED. Is it perfect? No. But I can live in a walkable neighborhood and get public transport all the way from my apartment to the ski slopes and I think that's pretty neat.
Love seeing some electrified rail
The SunTrain movable battery thing is a dumb idea!
It takes an already unworkable idea of storing grid level energy in batteries and adds trains to the mix.
On their website, SunTrain claims their battery trains can serve as "mobile peakers". How do they think peaks work? They are universal. Each urban area has energy spikes, thus fixed grid storage makes way more sense in that respect.
It's also a major health hazard. Think about how long it takes to put out an electric car battery fire. Now imagine a 20-car long battery train catching fire.
This comment isn't meant to be comprehensive, so I'll leave it here, but it's nothing more than mere another way we have diligently come up to waste quickly dwindling stocks of rare minerals while additionally causing all the environmental destruction that's associated with mining. And at the same time, it will add more emissions into the atmosphere. What a win-win.
I do wonder when comes the time when people realize the future is of much less of everything rather than same but electric. Overshoot is a real thing whether you acknowledge it or not.
Well far as railroads are concerned it's just more wagons that need moving, and that normally means money.
Wasn’t Denver the destination for all those cattle drives to the railhead for slaughter? When I think about rail, Chicago and Denver come to mind. I rode RTD for a year when I didn’t have a car, they’re great!
I ride the RTD rail 3-4 days a week. It is horrible. Who picked the original trains? Someone from the 1800s? You have to climb steep stairs to get the the seating. Only one door that can be entered in a chair means no more than 2 electric wheel chairs can ride a train at any given time. Not to mention the fact that the operator has to come out and drop a platform for anyone to use it, then put it up again before the train moves again. Reverse all that when the passengers need to get off the train. I can't tell you how many times I've watched people struggle with their luggage, bike or worst of all ebike getting up those damn stairs.
The upcoming route boards at each station that are supposed to tell you when the next 2 trains are leaving are suggestions at best if they are even functioning at all.
Years long track maintenance slowing the trains down to 10 mph for miles. It's fun sitting in the train watching RUSH HOUR traffic passing the train you are on. We spent most of this last year with only once an hour service south from union station as they worked on the rails in the roads downtown. I have had more than one 4+ hour commute on RTD rail. When they have to close a line for maintenance mid route they put you on a shuttle bus. You get to wait for that bus at times, then wait 20-30 minutes before the bus starts moving only to get to wait again at the other end for the train to arrive and then for that train to start moving. Right now it is just about as good as it has ever been in the last few years and it takes over 2 hours to get from the northern terminus of the N line to 3/4 of the E line route south.
I've been shuttled off of the trains with no warning more than once. That could be on me as I might have missed the bulletins at the station AND the announcements, but in at least one instance I'm pretty sure it was not me. I'd say they were less harsh than they could have been in their reporting.
The big issue with Denver Union Station: it's a culdesac! They ripped up the tracks heading out the south in the 1980s and built buildings in the old right of way. You'll never get fast or frequent front range rail while using Union Station.
I know its unrealistic, but if the E line was replaced with commuter rail running at 15 minute frequency... Damn.
Hey, Alan! Really cool to see you take another look at Denver's commuter rail!
I'm one of the operators on the network. If you have any questions, feel free to hit me up. I'd be happy to tell you more about our railway, if there's anything you'd like to know.
I'm so glad the governor of Colorado is Cave Johnson
How are they transporting the energy? Batteries or tank cars?
Suntrain in particular poses a problem. It’s the antithesis of how railroads today operate. Unit trains are altogether discouraged and mixed carload freight is blocked together in order to achieve the goal of longer train lengths. I wouldn’t expect the sun train idea to get very far, especially considering the hazards of running these battery ladings in mixed traffic where right of way fires or grade crossing accidents could result in environmental catastrophe.
RTDs commuter rail (From what I've heard) has a really bad route and bad station infrastructure on the fringes of the network. Several of the stations are out of the way and have pretty bad passenger accomodations, and it basically "Runs from nowhere to nowhere." It lacks solid connections into the city while also making waiting at platforms in the winter hell due to lacking passenger enclosures. It could definitely be fixed, but in its current state its no wonder why very few people use it. A car is just more convenient still.
5:58 If I could threaten one of the biggest companies in the country to let me use their only link through a mountain range for a small town of 9000 people I'd be *SO* happy.
They have to replace that old AF-looking rolling stock. I think how the trains look is a big selling point for people
They're gonna use diesel trains to haul electricity??
I can't remember the name, but there was a fun "what if" story about covering the sahara in solar panels and exporting the electricity via ginormous battery ships. Logistically insane, but hilarious to think about nonetheless.
Boulder County waiting impatiently😡 for FasTracks Northwest Rail to Boulder, Longmont since 2004 election
He literally mentioned how front range rail would connect boulder to Denver and many other cities in like 2 to 3 years
@@MRey-t9u As a Denverite, I'll believe it when I see it haha.
The B line won't be extended, it's going to get added to the Front Range corridor service, so 3 slow ass Amtrak trains, crawling down a barely maintained BNSF sub a day.
@@mrvwbug4423 the tracks allow for 90 mph travel speeds and there will be more than 3 trains a day once service gets more established. Why don’t you do more research instead of just stating blanket statements
@@MRey-t9uthis is part of the confusion RTD, FRPR & CDOT won’t clear up yet. Boulder County would only be about 8 years behind the last commuter line for FasTracks & ahead of a few other extensions, so not terrible overall (about 25 years from passage)-longer than desired but that’s why FF started much sooner (which will be more convenient for most people going to CUBoulder or downtown anyway).