A long time ago I did a a contract design job at Shorts in Belfast. While I was there another project was the C23A, a military transport aircraft made from the incredible 330. We used to watch 330s landing in conditions that would sink ships. Fantastic crosswind performance. Anyway... the Shorts aircraft all had skinny wings. At the C23A rollout, apparently, one of the Shorts design bosses was inspecting the aircraft the night before, and a U.S. serviceman in a fancy uniform was also in the hangar. I heard that he said to the Shorts guy... " Gee... it's such a tiny wing ! ". The Shorts guy apparently replied, " Ah... yes..., but there's one on the other side, as well. " !!!
@@SimonWallwork I flew the Shorts 3-60 as well and it is a nice flying one. I flew the ATR 42 and 72 as well, thousands of hours, and that are nice flying ones as well. Both Types in serious conditions, day, night, PX and Freight, Atlantic storms, high moutainious regions, dense fog with very bumpy storm at the Atlantic, extreme short RWY´s with full loaded AC, unexpected heavy icing, torrential rain. Both types where always good to handle! There are limits and PCD´s like for any other AC, just follow the books and everything is fine, even if your definitive reach the published limits. Everyone who is saying that ATR is rotten, dangerous or something like that has no idea what he is saying. Just stupid talking without fundamental experiance.
Interesting analysis, I learned a lot. The graphics and photos you used really communicated the concepts very effectively. I was unaware of this plane and was immediately struck by how much it looks like the DeHavilland Dash 8. The Dash 8 was the last plane my mother worked on. She was the Chief Weights Engineer for DeHavilland, Boeing and Bombardier since the 1960s to early 90s. I remember a couple of things specifically about the wing. For her area of engineering CG was extremely important and she and her small team were responsible for the placement of the wing. The high aspect ratio was something that really stressed her out - she was usually a cool cucumber and the fact that she’d talk about it with me, a kid, showed me it was a concern. We had a celebratory dinner when they weighed the first plane and did its CG and some crucial metric they had estimated with respect to the wing placement and CG and the overall weight was almost perfect. Believe it or not it was designed without CAD, or very limited use of CAD, just blueprints and simple calculators, paper and pencils. Also believe it or not, until she retired she still occasionally used a slide rule and, this blew me away when I saw it, a desktop mechanical calculator with a hand crank. The wing design was informed by the design of the Dash 7 which in turn was informed by the Buffalo and Cariboo extreme STOL planes. I think when the Dash 8 was stretched to become the Q400? wing placement became even more important to CG. I could discuss some technical things I remember but I’ve rambled on too much already. Thanks for making the video!
I’ll be flying ATR72-600 from MAA to IXM in March. Done this route many times before but must admit I am a bit scared this time after the Brazil accident. Thanks so much for your reassurance and facts. As a physicist by training, these facts reassure me greatly! Happy holidays to all!🎄
@ Yes, that’s true. Or in the -600 variant anywhere I think? Did have a very hairy landing at IXM in an ATR72 15 years ago on my way to my wedding though. I could see it was very windy because the coconut trees were swaying a lot, then upon landing it felt like the PF applied alternating left and right rudder because we skidded from side to side of the runway several times before eventually stopping safely. We got the train back to Chennai on that trip 🤣
Dont worry. The brazilian crash was human "error" (actually total stupidity). The pilots ignored ice warnings multiple times over at least 30 minutes and did not take the appropriate measures.
Back in the 80's I flew on an ATR from Edinburgh to Gatwick after all jet plane flights had been cancelled due to storms (I had been meant to fly on a Boeing to Heathrow). The ATR managed it superbly never feeling unsafe in some fairly extreme conditions. A properly trained BA pilot probably helped.
I do not have flight experience with the ATR, but have about 5000 hours on the Embraer EMB-120 Brasilia. It is exactly as you say: as far as wing loading the ATR 72 is absolutely normal. And the wing aspect ratio - which has a direct effect on induced drag - must be maximized as much as the design materials and and structural sizing resources (numerical methods, etc.) allow. Nothing wrong with the ATR here either. After the Roselawn accident in the US in 1994 ATR did improve the aircraft, doubling the chordwise deice boot length, adding annunciations and improving the abnormal procedures. The accident in Brazil was a combination of several factors: the aircraft was operating with a single a/c pack and consequently limited to 17000 feet, a very unfavorable altitude as far as icing is concerned. The amount of icing that day was very severe, completely unusual in the Sao Paulo state here in Brazil; it seems that one of the airframe the deice boots failed, generating a CAS message which calls for a checklist with two items: 1 - switch off deice 2 - Get out of icing immediately. The crew complied with the first item but ignored the second one. The aircraft lost speed, resulting in another annunciation, and the crew did not react to it. I get the impression that the crew did not understand the seriousness of the situation and the associated high risk.
Thank you for that excellent & circumspect explanation of high aspect wing characteristics & behaviors. I have linked your video for some of my model building students to consider & reflect upon; Reynold's scaling and model proportions for low drag/weight conscious building is a huge stumbling block for beginners. It was for me as a youngster.
Well, done sir . If I could attribute any problems selectively to the ATR 72. This would be the wing is more susceptible to icing. The reason for this is simple. High aspect ratio wings by definition have more leading edge profile surface as compared to the total wing area. And it is the leading edge where most ice builds up. Additionally, a narrow cord necessitates an abbreviated low pressure profile on the upper surface. E.g.. It is not gradual. The lower pressure drops the temperature gradient more quickly moving the freezing point forward. To approximately 20% LEMAC. Obviously this is a well-known problem.
A few comments on the B-24 Liberator. At higher angles of attack, the wings of the B-24 could exhibit some challenges. High aspect ratio wings tend to have a more gradual stall, but the B-24 was known for having a somewhat abrupt stall behavior, especially if not flown correctly. This was due to the wing's design, which included a Davis wing profile with a high taper, leading to a concentration of lift towards the root of the wing. The high aspect ratio can lead to the wingtips stalling before the root if the wing is not properly designed or if flown at very high angles of attack. This can cause control issues, particularly in turns where the inner wing might still be producing lift while the outer wing stalls. And in a combat aircraft like the B-24, these characteristics are not insignificant. While the high aspect ratio wings were great for efficiency, they could make the aircraft less responsive at high angles of attack or during combat maneuvers where quick changes in direction or altitude were necessary. Pilots had to be cautious with how they increased the angle of attack due to the possibility of losing control if the aircraft approached or entered a stall. The B-24's control surfaces, like ailerons, had less authority at these angles due to the flow separation over the wing. The B-24 Liberator's high aspect ratio wings were optimized for long-range efficiency, making it an excellent choice for missions requiring endurance over combat agility. However, this design also meant pilots needed to be aware of the aircraft's behavior at high angles of attack, where the wing's characteristics could lead to less forgiving flight dynamics. Pilots were trained to manage these aspects carefully to ensure safe and effective operations. And the vast majority of pilots who underwent this training usd it with success. But there is no denying that in combat, usually over the target area, or leeaving the target area and being intercepted on the return flight to base, pilots handling the plane in a rough fashion, trying to avoid flak - or more commonly - enemy interceptors, demanded a higher degree of skill from B-24 pilots to keep them out of the Liberator's death zone. As for Boeing/NASA's senseless SUGAR Volt Project (Subsonic Ultra Green Aircraft Research), it is a idiotic waste of tax payer's hard earned dollars to solve a non-existing problem. Boeing's management have proven themselves incapable of running the company safely and efficiently these past couple of decades. Just a few weeks back they decided to scrap their, quite frankly dangerous DEI program. The question is just now: -Is it too little too late. Of course, with SUGAR Volt, they are 'smoking' their, oh so familiar OPM pipe (Other People's Money) to solvee a non-problem. We do not need less CO₂ in the atmosphere. We need MORE! Plant life is starved of CO₂ - The Gas of Life, as we are, geologically speaking, still coming out of the last glaciation period. Saving is a great concept and the way to go about it would be research into ever more efficient engines, not carrying insane tonnage of battery packs into the air and crowding already crowded airports with airplanes with such poor performance that we are actually taking a step back in time. But for Heaven's sake, let the market decide when it's time to develop new technology, rather than forcing this madness onto the industry - Soviet Style! It will not work. If it had ever worked, the Soviet Union would still bee in existence. So, since you brought up the scandalous SUGAR Volt Program, run by a company that is failing on several fronts and a Federal Government institution famous for busting budget with astronomical figures, I thought I would look up exactly how much the American Tax Payer has to bleed for this Soviet Era program. And wouldn't you know… Even the figures are kept Soviet Style! In other words: - The figures are SECRET. The budget overruns are SECRET. They obviously do not want the Americans forced to pay for this nonsense to know how much of their money is being wasted or who is getting rich in the process. Nothing new there. That's how all these "green" projects are run, while Child Slave Labor is rampant, mining minerals for the "Green Elite's" battery packs and the Planet isn't being saved by The Gas of Life, CO₂ - but rather poisoned by highly toxic mining operations and the dumping of toxic batteries at the end of their life-time. Boeing has experienced significant budget overruns in other NASA projects like the Space Launch System (SLS) and the Commercial Crew Program's Starliner. For instance, the SLS project has seen billions in overruns due to delays and technical challenges. Similarly, the Starliner program has faced considerable cost overruns, with Boeing reporting losses totaling $1.5 billion as of 2023. It is quite frankly shocking that they waste money on these Neo-Marxist Pipe Dreams when the company is in shambles. And it isn't only the American Tax Payer who has to pick up the bill for this. It's also the Customer of the Aviation Industry in more expensive aircraft and higher Air Cargo prices. I can guarantee that there is no "Man Made Climate Change". I can guarantee that there won't be any "Man Made Climate Change". In a century or so, when we will start thinking about alternative sources of Energy, a Free & Open Market will see to that. And at that point, there will be much more Common Sense moving things forward. That is really the only thing that has successfully been at the root of EVERY Innovation in Aviation! I agree with your conclusions about the ATR 72, Fly with Magnar, which earned you one more subscription! 👍
Hi Magnar, Thank you for another excellent video. I hope there will be more of the same type of videos in the future, such as comparing engine power. I've heard that the ATR is underpowered compared to other aircraft.
Considering that CoP moves backwards when using high-lift devices (flaps), would it be fair to say that short-cord wings are also more stable as this CoP displacement is less pronounced? Valid only for situations of configuration change - transition from clean wing to flaps extended, of course.
@FlywithMagnar I remember some accidents years ago with Fokker in Northern America (?) and all over the world. Severe icing... (corr: some accidents with Fokker 28 and 100 since 1969, in North Am. was at "la guardia")
There have been at least 5 accidents with Fokker 28 and Fokker 100 because they were not properly de-iced before takeoff. The wings do not have leading edge slats, and that make them more vulnerable to ice.
Why people comments are like all are specialists in aviation? ATR 72 is a good plane. We use it in Romania for years and no problems! Is perfect for short haul.
so far your luck has held up, and it's only a matter of time. It's about safety margins. You may never see a crash, but the probability is worse here than others - that's all
@gendaminoru3195 G'day, Stop trolling. I doubt if you could design and make a functional Origami Aeroplane from a fresh clean sheet of paper. The Brazillian Crash was due to GROSS Pilot Error, Not anything Wrong with the Wing. Grow up, you whining carping whinging childish Ignoramus. Come back after you Master Puberty. ;-p Ciao
The early ATR had it's original design de-ice boots changed basically to ease manufacturer and costs. There was a prohibition of flying it in icing conditions. The ATR 72 is basically an upsized ATR 42. I'm not sure if the icing condition prohibition is stroll in effect. It is possible to encounter unpredicted icing conditions at altitude.
I flew on the A72 from Athens to Crete Chania in October 2024. I did have the accident in Brazil in mind. The flight was very pleasant actually. I had expected the noise level to be high based on past experiences decades ago on similar propellor planes but I was pleasantly surprised. At no time did I feel that the A72 is unstable or dangerous. ATR planes have had issues in cold conditions with de-icing etc. before. Thats what may have happened again in Brazil this year. No such conditions in Greece in October. Sunshine and 24 degrees C.
Bumbling around at 21000ft in the tops of the clouds, picking up ice & stuck in all the weather. Sorry but did it for 18 months & much prefer flying around now at 40000ft @ M0.85. Good luck all.👍
Thank you, Magnar for the very informative comparison and explanation! The ATR-72 seems to be a fine airplane. Its limitations are real, but very well known. So why is it that so many pilots operate it not knowing these limitations, or not operating within them?
ATRs are flown by airlines in countries with deficient oversight and training, for example Yeti in Nepal. That's consistent with the fact that many ATR crashes are attributed to unprofessional piloting.
It’s important for people to understand that, when it comes to physics, freedom of opinions and common sense don’t count, only verified facts and understanding of the theory, will give you predictions capabilities.
I love it when he starts off with "I am Manya Noodle". Then I know we are off to a good aviation yarn. And ex Mig 21 fighter pilot, too. Cheers to Magnar 😅
Thank you, very informative. ATRs serve Guernsey, a Channel Island where I come from. I do know that the wings have an iceing problem. In the case of the brazilian crash, however, multiple warnings were ignored for about 30 minutes and necessary measures not taken by the pilots.
One significant negative aspect of the ATR 72's wing design that wasn't mentioned here is that it appears to have no washout, whether aerodynamic twist or geometric twist. This increases efficiency of a high aspect ratio wing, but creates adverse stalling characteristics, as the entire wing will tend to stall at once, as opposed to more favorable stalling characteristics where the root stalls before the tips.
Accurate, but partial explanation regarding the wing loading factor. Very well noticed by this commentator, aditional reference to wing washout. Further, why can it be argued that ATR has flawed wing design? Wing loading, is one very important aerodynamic parameter, and here ATR seems to be within the technical norms, aligned with the competition. This ATR instructor however, forgets to mention one CRUCIAL aspect, that makes ATR more demanding, i.e. dangerous airplane to fly, if not treated with extreme caution by it's pilots. And it is the supercritical profile of the wing it has been designed with. Supercritical profile is very fuel-efficient, and has excellent performance parameters - in near ideal, optimum conditions. However an airplane that is utilized in public transport, has to be certified to fly in real - time range of meteorogical conditions, that includes icing conditions. This is where an ATR differs to similarly designed aircraft. Unfortunately, it's supercritical profile deteriorates, in turn creating much more drag, with the MINIMUM amounts of ICE on the wings. The fact is that almost ALL the ATR accidents with catastrophic outcome have happened in icing conditions, combined with often various levels of neglect or direct errors commitied by it's crew in these challenging conditions, which in turn resulted in unfortunate outcome of crew losing control of the aircraft. So, yes, it can be argued that ATR is a flawed design. Even ATR engineers and pruducer have tacitly acknowledged that by introducing non-icing and icing speeds into it's standard operations. Overall performance is also sub-par comparing with the direct competition. I personally have encountered icing while flying an ATR thousands of times, and never had an issue. But I can also vouch, and advise any ATR operator, to treat it with extreme caution during operation in Icing conditions! Much more so then any other aircraft I have flown in the last 40 years, and counting. This statement by an EX-ATR 7000 hours captain.
The horizontal stabiliser being further back does increase short period pitch stability, but you also have to consider the effect of the longer fuselage itself. The longitudinal moment of inertia of the fuselage has also increased which destabilises the short period pitching mode. It's hard to say what the overall net effect is but if they didn't resize the horizontal tail, then it probably didn't change all that much.
The Fairchild Metro had a similar problem, the wings were too short. I am led to believe that speeds had to be higher that average to keep safe lift.I was told by a pilot that if you lost an engine on one of those, the outcome was normally very bleak. Observations from South Africa
But this is the same problem with many privet jets too, once the engines stop working the jet just plummets to the ground like on a free fall, this idiotic way of designing passenger aircraft needs to stop.
I think that's more an issue of power and it's distribution... this seems one of those planes where the engine creates a lot of drag fairly far out from the CG. basically it's difference between Stall-Speed & Vref is quite a bit higher than on many comparable planes.
I believe the plane also had another problem, to lift more they stuck on wing extensions but didn't add aileron extensions, so slow speed flying was more 'difficult'. Look up Cork disaster a few years back?
It is not so insane when you realise that standard atmospheric pressure is around 10000kg/m2. So wing profile only changes this pressure by tiny amount to get required lift, for egxample on the upper surface 10200kg/m2 and on the lower 9800kg/m2 then you get wing load of 400kg/m2. For me it is really mind-breaking
Good analysis on your presentation. The thing about those high aspect ratio wings not mentioned here is that there wings seem to be more unstable then most other wings when it comes to contamination ice buildup.
Those wings rather put me in mind of the Hurel Dubois of similar appearance. Its wings were similarly slim but had a larger span because it was designed as a STOL craft.
The sad reality of the time we leave in is that the person's video is likely to be viewed and shared so much more than your video... And their video will therefore be viewed as fact by many, despite his disclaimer... We live in an age where experts are relegated by casual commentators who are at the high ignorance and high confidence point of the Dunning Kruger effect curve.
Statiscally ATR is one the least safe aircraft manufacturers of commercial passenger aircraft. Only Sukhoi is less safe. Does that mean it's an unsafe aircraft? No. There are plenty of high aspect ratio aircraft that are safe, look at Diamond DA40/50/62 with a wing that's very difficult to stall. I think that ATR has particular issues with icing and it's t-tail which seems to contribute to uncontrollable spins. What's historically was perhaps unhelpful re ATR is that the manufacturer and BEA weren't particularly honest about rhe issues the aircraft had. It's clear that whilst the ATR is mostly okay, there are a particular but rare subset of environmental conditions which can lead to an unrecoverable outcome.
Statistics can be deceiving. Until the accident in Paris in 2000, Concorde was the safest airliner in the world. A single accident made it the most unsafe airliner, if you compare it with the number of flights or hours flown. Most airline accidents do not happen because of the design of the aircraft, but because of inadequate training and discipline.
Most accidents happen during takeoffs and landings. The ATR flies short routes (= many takeoffs and landings), often to less-equipped airports with no ILS, often in parts of the world with tricky weather, sometimes in parts of the world where regulatory oversight over pilot training is not as strict. So the statistics might not be telling you the whole story.
@@FlywithMagnar Concorde had problems with its tyres from the beginning of its service life but its operators ignored the warning signs until it was too late. The uprated Concorde B was to have more efficient engines and a larger wing with leading edge slats allowing for slower landing speeds but the tyre problem was deemed unimportant.
@@FlywithMagnarthere was 14 concorde produced, there are 1300 atr72 produced. Atr72 is well into the range where the satistics are stable..really for aircraft is alreddy stable at about 100 units and about 20 years. So no, statistics is not missleading, concorde was a outlier due to the low number produced.
@@matsv201 The issue with statistics is that correlation do not necessary imply causation. In that case like @FlywithMagnar pointed out, many other factors such as crew training will impact accidents. The ATRs are often used by cash-strapped airlines, in environments where regulations are low to non-existent. So chances of accidents will go up in that environment.
It's almost as if some smart engineers designed the airplane with careful calculations and math and stuff! They figured out what size the wing should be before building it and flying it for almost 40 years!
and 4 unnecessary crash with total loss of life because of the design that would have been easy to avoid with calculations. PS X-66 won't fly in 2028...
I suppose the only real criticism is that once it stops flying and starts falling, it's very hard or impossible to start it flying again (as with the Brazil crash). But the pilots appear to have ignored a lot of warnings about the ice building up before that happened.
Not if you apply the correct stall recovery procedure as described in the FCOM. The main reason for loss of control in flight of both Voepass 2282 and American 4184 was inproper stall recovery technic and especially the fact that flaps 15 was not selected.
@@pakviroti3616 The thing is that as far as I know, no transport aircraft is rated for a flat spin recovery, and procedures in the FCOM for all those aircrafts are planned to keep you as far as possible from a flat spin situation. So if someone manage to get into a situation like that in these aircrafts (not only the ATR, but all transport aircraft), they were already way past the point of no-return
Stalling is not a problem. If there is sufficient altitude, the recovery can be made safely by a pilot following the manufactures recommended procedures. Spinning is a whole different matter outside of the aircraft certification. It can be extremely difficult or even impossible for a multi-engine aircraft to recover from a fully developed spin.
The ATR is a fantastic aircraft to fly. It is so much fun and teaches you some real skills. Fancy Airbus guys (which I used to be before my ATR adventure) of course don't get this :)
Im a self proclaimed Airbus Fanboy 😁, but love my ATR in MSFS. I spend a fair amount of time flying the ATR in sim, and enjoy the attention it requires
As an ATC, I need a separation of at least 7 minutes before letting any other aircraft depart after the ATR. Unless it’s an unpowered hang glider, then 5 minutes is enough.
Agreed. I have 2000+ hours on the ATR. It handles perfectly fine. I've experienced maximum demonstrated crosswind and pretty awful turbulance without problems.
@@DinoAlberini "As an ATC, I need a separation of at least 7 minutes before letting any other aircraft depart after the ATR" Why? It is not like it is A380. Or did you mean BEFORE?
The Fokker (Fairchild) F-27 also had quite high aspect ratio wings for it's era and weight, probably much less wing loading that the ATR-72. It's known for it's ability with climbing out steeply. (for it's era..) with the rather marginal power of the Rolls Royce Dart turboprops. Recall that this airplane was tasked with replacing the DC-3 at regional airports. I remember when our airport was serviced by West Coast Airline's DC-3 and then the Fokker F-27 replaced these old 1930's era airplanes.
Great video. I prefer an assessment of an aircraft’s design, efficiency & stability to be based on physics and aerospace engineering, rather than assertion or opinion.
From what I read about aircraft design, the centre of gravity of an aircraft must be within certain limits for stability. The limits are informed by the mean aerodynamic chord of the wing, which is just the width of its wings when viewed from the side. If an aircraft has a high aspect ratio wing, it may well be efficient, but the mean chord is shorter, making the allowance for variation in the centre of gravity smaller, therefore impinging on its stability. Pilots flying whatever airplane they happen to fly must consider said airplane's envelope, and operate within its boundaries, but that doesn't detract from the fact that an airplane with thinner wings will be more difficult to stabilise during an upset, and in some cases it will be impossible to do so, if the upset is bad enough. A less stable airplane is inherently more dangerous to fly, and an airplane with narrow wings is less stable than one with wide wings as a matter of fact. I wouldn't be afraid of flying in an ATR 72 though. Its designers made it a little less stable for efficiency, and I trust most pilots flying it have received appropriate training, and didn't pass their check rides due to nepotism. This is not to claim that I know for a fact that this happened in any particular case, but I have been a member of multiple cultures, and know that some have a more lenient attitude towards bending the rules than others, and a correspondingly higher accident rate.
Search Labs | AI Overview Learn more The ATR 72 has a good safety record, with only a few significant incidents. The ATR 72 is a popular choice for regional flights and has been in service for nearly 36 years. Here are some details about the ATR 72's safety record: Fatal accidents The ATR 72 has been involved in 13 accidents with at least one fatality as of August 2024. The first fatal accident was American Eagle Flight 4184 in 1994, which resulted in 68 fatalities. The most recent fatal accident was Voepass Linhas Aéreas Flight 2283 in August 2024, which resulted in 62 fatalities.
I love it when TH-camrs make statements like "the wings of aircraft XY are too small", especially if there's a lot of those aircraft are flying safely all over the world since years and years... Thanks for your professional comment on this (and other!) topic, I really love to see you debunk all those myths. Social media definitely have their good sides, but there is a lot of people who claim to know something about a specific topic, and in reality, they know nothing about it. "Aviation" channels seem to be one of the favorite targets for those amateurs, and that's the reason why channels like yours, Blancolirio, or Mentour Pilot (amongst others) are so important. Thank you Captain Magnar for your excellent work, your unbiased conclusions, and your professinal attitude that is providing us with a lot of content that is really worth watching!
I agree totally with you. We know that ATR are not suited for freezing wings. It is the duty of the pilots to ensure themselves and their passengers that they won't cross these meteorological conditions.
@@redtale6527 Sounds like freak accident. Truth is, those birds are some of the best turboprops ever made; japanese quality. known people who flew them, and they said it was their favorite plane. They also said they need to be flown like jets, not turboprops ....
@@alexanderordinary2110 Yep, we had an accident in the province I live (Quebec) where a popular media personality lost his life when the MU-2 he was a passenger on crashed in the Iles-de-la-Madelaines. And one thing that got out of the TSB report is how the PIC did not have the experience required to pilot the MU-2 correctly, trying to fly it like any other turboprop on approach. The MU-2 require a specific type rating for a reason
You can but sacrifices were made, the MU-2 had a slimmer tolerance for poor pilotage than comparable aircraft like the C441 Conquest. Because of the full length flaps, the tanks were moved to wingtips which led to an unrecoverable spin characteristic and also spoilers instead of ailerons were a bit different for transitioning pilots. A great plane but it demanded respect that many pilots over the year did not give it
The Q400 is considered to be overpowered - it’s also faster at the cost of efficiency. The ATR has engines designed for peak efficiency while remaining “normally” sized for its mtow and performance.
It's so refreshing to hear an expert explaining the basics of wing design. It really gets me when people start knocking a design when they don't understand the basics of aerodynamics and aircraft design. Worst still is the icing theory. If you go back to what happened in Brazil, that plane should never have been flying with all the maintenance issues it had, and definitely not in that weather with those faults. Let's not go to the basics pilot errors... Any plane with the same issues and weather conditions and pilot mistakes would have gone down.
ATR72 is not unstable - obviously, it's just that alpha is more important and there is no tolerance for ice accumulation given the short chord. Not good for Part 125. As long as crew training is impeccable and you don't push your luck in icing conditions, you can roll the dice. ATR72 has very powerful engines making it easier to manage, but classic issues still exist which cause spins and accelerated stalls. But don't push your luck with this bird. All ATR72 crew should have specialized remedial and periodic training added, including upset recovery - Voepass allowed the forward speed to go to zero and kept it that way with high power as they spun. While you do have some forward speed left, you gotta get the nose down and then go through spin recovery. It was so tragic to watch that thing just spiraling hopelessly into the ground. But they ignored all the warning signs and then didn't know how to recover. Training every 6 months with added icing and upset recovery is needed.
The algorithm brought me to you for the first time, and when the first thing I heard was an AI voice spouting nonsense, I almost closed the video! I think if you do something like this again, you should introduce yourself first, just so first time viewers won't mistake your channel for AI clickbait.
We cannot argue with your analysis but I would point out that my home airport IOM, is noted for the worst weather possible and many years of benign Dash-8 flying never caused concern. However, on switching to the ATR's, immediately one became aware of something not 'right' on final approach/flaring. As a single engine PPL with many types logged, flying qualities are paramount and the first ATR problems I believe were aerodynamic tail blanking at slow speed, and just sitting in the back of one in difficult conditions dose my confidence no good! You Guys up front concentrating hard, might never 'enjoy' the arse clenching the cattle class endure!
Excellent description for the average person to grasp. Unfortunately the average person has been so poorly educated even this simple straight forward explanation will fall on deaf ears and they will rather believe sensationalized idiots elsewhere. But do continue to debunk these silly notions. Thank you.
Wingload dont tell the full story. Specially for regonal airlines. The problem is how weight is messured. As a avrage.for passangers and bagage. There are two main issues with that. 1: the statistics underestimate the actual weight by a huge margine. This is less so of a problem with planes with higher range because a larger procentage of the weight is fuel, so if the passanger is 25-30% wrong only give a error of 2-5% of the total weight. For a plane with short range, this is very diffrent. Hence overloading is more so a problem. 2: there is one more issue with a short cord. The aircraft stall at a lowet angle of attack. This combine with a lowet power is a issue (atr72 have about half the power per weight a 737 does. At lower speed this is not really a issue due to the disc area. But when speeds are at flying speed, specially with out flaps depoyed, the aircraft can stall suddenly and violently with the engine having little chance of pulling the plane out of the stall.
All I have to say is are any of these people making comments, aeronautical engineers? If not then shut the hell up. That aircraft is a very good aircraft. Don’t let the looks fool you. It’s a very stable. It’s been in use for many years and just because of what accident you can’t say that there’s flaws with it because there’s not.
Saying that a high-aspect-ratio wing is uNsTaBLe certainly goes against everything I've experienced about aircraft design....and I'm my aviation experience is at best charitably considered a plane spotter.
I don't understand where all the hate for the ATR comes from. I have to admit that I have never flown on one, as I just never had the opportunity to do it, but (as long as I would fly on any aircraft operated by that airline*) I would not hesitate to do it if I had the chance. *) Just to exclude operators with sketchy maintenance or sub-standard crew training, as they would be more dangerous, without blaming the ATR for that fact
Hello Magnar. I used to fly Saab2000 (Concordino), one of the most advanced turboprop aircraft, back in the 90s. Its wing area was not bigger than ATR's. We could climb to FL 310 in 10 minutes (before RVSM rules). But we had powerful Allison engines. The problem with the ATR is not only the wing design but also the underpowered engines.
For a wing design to be called a "masterpiece" they would have to be designed with the ability to handle a nominal amount of icing and not kill everyone onboard. Don't you think?
No, you are wrong about the wings too small. To reduce approach and landing speed you need sophisticated flaps. Comparing to other aircraft does not make sense at all. Owned a MU2 which is the same concept, had other problems, but not because the wing load was close to a B737.
What about wing thickness. Why ice buildup is so easy in this aircraft? What about FLAT SPIN? Why this aircraft is so sensitive at vertical windshear? If you play the game of the bad guys (HIDE) then we will see the same accidents and incidents
A thin wing can accumulate more ice than a thick wing. Very often, the stabilizer (which is thin) has more ice than the wing. An aircraft will only enter a spin if it is stalled first. Then, you must push full rudder. To enter a flat spin, you must enter a spin and add power (this is what happened in Brazil) or have a center of gravity too far aft. ATR aircraft are protected against that. Before the aircraft stalled, the crew received 5 warnings from the aircraft, including a loud stall warning, stick shaker, and stick pusher forcing the control column forward. Despite this, the nose of the aircraft did not move down, suggesting the pilot was opposing the stick pusher. It's like a car driver in a moment of confusion is hitting the accelerator instead of the brake pedal.
@ ATR has a lot of systems to fight ICE. More than others. WHY? How do you explain the fast ice buildup with a thick wing? This is the worst airplane on icing conditions I ever flew ( T-37, C-212, C-337, JS-41, C-560)
With 1200 hours in the piece of shit I can say it's an excellent hot weather airplane. It can operate into small fields, in hot weather (doesn't mean it's anywhere near comfortable inside lol), fill every seat with people and both cargos with their bags, and do well. It's performance in cold weather way overshadows that success though. After my last flight on it I have not, and will not get on one again. And I fly the MAX now 😂
el atr 72 y el atr 42 su problema real es su ineficaz antihielo y deshielo del ala, tanto que tienen prohibido volar en zonas norte de EEUU y Canada. Esta bien para volar en italia y francia donde se diseño.
It is very small for this aircraft!! Small wings are install in combat airplanes for instability ( on purpose) jet engines sustain the plane but once engines dessingaged aircfraft rapidly descend but in combat thats very important. In this airplane makes it questionable!!!
The ATR's are unsafe? wait untill we tell the pilots, they'll be aghast that they've been flying a death machine without knowing, that information would've been useful at some point before 2000 of them were built LoL
Bloody design was stretched and shouldn't have been due to the type of airfoil used... It is as if they thought that the ere would be more children, but the fact is that there are more fat people and they are not leaving their luggage behind.
A long time ago I did a a contract design job at Shorts in Belfast. While I was there another project was the C23A, a military transport aircraft made from the incredible 330. We used to watch 330s landing in conditions that would sink ships. Fantastic crosswind performance. Anyway... the Shorts aircraft all had skinny wings. At the C23A rollout, apparently, one of the Shorts design bosses was inspecting the aircraft the night before, and a U.S. serviceman in a fancy uniform was also in the hangar. I heard that he said to the Shorts guy... " Gee... it's such a tiny wing ! ". The Shorts guy apparently replied, " Ah... yes..., but there's one on the other side, as well. " !!!
I flew the Shorts SD3-60. It flew great. The ATR is rotten, but I wouldn't blame the aspect ratio of the wing. It's more complex than that.
@@SimonWallwork
I flew the Shorts 3-60 as well and it is a nice flying one.
I flew the ATR 42 and 72 as well, thousands of hours, and that are nice flying ones as well.
Both Types in serious conditions, day, night, PX and Freight, Atlantic storms, high moutainious regions, dense fog with very bumpy storm at the Atlantic, extreme short RWY´s with full loaded AC, unexpected heavy icing, torrential rain.
Both types where always good to handle!
There are limits and PCD´s like for any other AC, just follow the books and everything is fine, even if your definitive reach the published limits.
Everyone who is saying that ATR is rotten, dangerous or something like that has no idea what he is saying.
Just stupid talking without fundamental experiance.
Fantastic explanations again, Magnar! Glimrende!! 🤘
Interesting analysis, I learned a lot. The graphics and photos you used really communicated the concepts very effectively.
I was unaware of this plane and was immediately struck by how much it looks like the DeHavilland Dash 8. The Dash 8 was the last plane my mother worked on. She was the Chief Weights Engineer for DeHavilland, Boeing and Bombardier since the 1960s to early 90s. I remember a couple of things specifically about the wing. For her area of engineering CG was extremely important and she and her small team were responsible for the placement of the wing. The high aspect ratio was something that really stressed her out - she was usually a cool cucumber and the fact that she’d talk about it with me, a kid, showed me it was a concern. We had a celebratory dinner when they weighed the first plane and did its CG and some crucial metric they had estimated with respect to the wing placement and CG and the overall weight was almost perfect. Believe it or not it was designed without CAD, or very limited use of CAD, just blueprints and simple calculators, paper and pencils. Also believe it or not, until she retired she still occasionally used a slide rule and, this blew me away when I saw it, a desktop mechanical calculator with a hand crank. The wing design was informed by the design of the Dash 7 which in turn was informed by the Buffalo and Cariboo extreme STOL planes. I think when the Dash 8 was stretched to become the Q400? wing placement became even more important to CG. I could discuss some technical things I remember but I’ve rambled on too much already. Thanks for making the video!
I’ll be flying ATR72-600 from MAA to IXM in March. Done this route many times before but must admit I am a bit scared this time after the Brazil accident. Thanks so much for your reassurance and facts. As a physicist by training, these facts reassure me greatly! Happy holidays to all!🎄
Don't worry this is A I gobbledegook.
Nobody has ever been killed or seriously injured in an ATR 72 accident in India.
@ Yes, that’s true. Or in the -600 variant anywhere I think? Did have a very hairy landing at IXM in an ATR72 15 years ago on my way to my wedding though. I could see it was very windy because the coconut trees were swaying a lot, then upon landing it felt like the PF applied alternating left and right rudder because we skidded from side to side of the runway several times before eventually stopping safely. We got the train back to Chennai on that trip 🤣
@@cedriclynch If only ATR were only flown in India........
Dont worry. The brazilian crash was human "error" (actually total stupidity). The pilots ignored ice warnings multiple times over at least 30 minutes and did not take the appropriate measures.
You gave a simple and correct answer.
Everything follows physics and not a meaning. You are great instructor. Keep going😊
Back in the 80's I flew on an ATR from Edinburgh to Gatwick after all jet plane flights had been cancelled due to storms (I had been meant to fly on a Boeing to Heathrow). The ATR managed it superbly never feeling unsafe in some fairly extreme conditions. A properly trained BA pilot probably helped.
Great video Magnar, as always!
I do not have flight experience with the ATR, but have about 5000 hours on the Embraer EMB-120 Brasilia. It is exactly as you say: as far as wing loading the ATR 72 is absolutely normal. And the wing aspect ratio - which has a direct effect on induced drag - must be maximized as much as the design materials and and structural sizing resources (numerical methods, etc.) allow. Nothing wrong with the ATR here either. After the Roselawn accident in the US in 1994 ATR did improve the aircraft, doubling the chordwise deice boot length, adding annunciations and improving the abnormal procedures. The accident in Brazil was a combination of several factors: the aircraft was operating with a single a/c pack and consequently limited to 17000 feet, a very unfavorable altitude as far as icing is concerned. The amount of icing that day was very severe, completely unusual in the Sao Paulo state here in Brazil; it seems that one of the airframe the deice boots failed, generating a CAS message which calls for a checklist with two items: 1 - switch off deice 2 - Get out of icing immediately. The crew complied with the first item but ignored the second one. The aircraft lost speed, resulting in another annunciation, and the crew did not react to it. I get the impression that the crew did not understand the seriousness of the situation and the associated high risk.
I love you how used different styles of text for the words being said by ATR's critics, like ransom letters from serial killers. Very funny detail!
Thank you for that excellent & circumspect explanation of high aspect wing characteristics & behaviors. I have linked your video for some of my model building students to consider & reflect upon; Reynold's scaling and model proportions for low drag/weight conscious building is a huge stumbling block for beginners. It was for me as a youngster.
Well, done sir . If I could attribute any problems selectively to the ATR 72. This would be the wing is more susceptible to icing. The reason for this is simple. High aspect ratio wings by definition have more leading edge profile surface as compared to the total wing area. And it is the leading edge where most ice builds up. Additionally, a narrow cord necessitates an abbreviated low pressure profile on the upper surface. E.g.. It is not gradual. The lower pressure drops the temperature gradient more quickly moving the freezing point forward. To approximately 20% LEMAC. Obviously this is a well-known problem.
Thank you very much for this explanation!🙂👍
A few comments on the B-24 Liberator. At higher angles of attack, the wings of the B-24 could exhibit some challenges. High aspect ratio wings tend to have a more gradual stall, but the B-24 was known for having a somewhat abrupt stall behavior, especially if not flown correctly. This was due to the wing's design, which included a Davis wing profile with a high taper, leading to a concentration of lift towards the root of the wing.
The high aspect ratio can lead to the wingtips stalling before the root if the wing is not properly designed or if flown at very high angles of attack. This can cause control issues, particularly in turns where the inner wing might still be producing lift while the outer wing stalls. And in a combat aircraft like the B-24, these characteristics are not insignificant.
While the high aspect ratio wings were great for efficiency, they could make the aircraft less responsive at high angles of attack or during combat maneuvers where quick changes in direction or altitude were necessary.
Pilots had to be cautious with how they increased the angle of attack due to the possibility of losing control if the aircraft approached or entered a stall. The B-24's control surfaces, like ailerons, had less authority at these angles due to the flow separation over the wing.
The B-24 Liberator's high aspect ratio wings were optimized for long-range efficiency, making it an excellent choice for missions requiring endurance over combat agility. However, this design also meant pilots needed to be aware of the aircraft's behavior at high angles of attack, where the wing's characteristics could lead to less forgiving flight dynamics. Pilots were trained to manage these aspects carefully to ensure safe and effective operations. And the vast majority of pilots who underwent this training usd it with success. But there is no denying that in combat, usually over the target area, or leeaving the target area and being intercepted on the return flight to base, pilots handling the plane in a rough fashion, trying to avoid flak - or more commonly - enemy interceptors, demanded a higher degree of skill from B-24 pilots to keep them out of the Liberator's death zone.
As for Boeing/NASA's senseless SUGAR Volt Project (Subsonic Ultra Green Aircraft Research), it is a idiotic waste of tax payer's hard earned dollars to solve a non-existing problem. Boeing's management have proven themselves incapable of running the company safely and efficiently these past couple of decades. Just a few weeks back they decided to scrap their, quite frankly dangerous DEI program. The question is just now: -Is it too little too late.
Of course, with SUGAR Volt, they are 'smoking' their, oh so familiar OPM pipe (Other People's Money) to solvee a non-problem. We do not need less CO₂ in the atmosphere. We need MORE! Plant life is starved of CO₂ - The Gas of Life, as we are, geologically speaking, still coming out of the last glaciation period.
Saving is a great concept and the way to go about it would be research into ever more efficient engines, not carrying insane tonnage of battery packs into the air and crowding already crowded airports with airplanes with such poor performance that we are actually taking a step back in time. But for Heaven's sake, let the market decide when it's time to develop new technology, rather than forcing this madness onto the industry - Soviet Style! It will not work. If it had ever worked, the Soviet Union would still bee in existence.
So, since you brought up the scandalous SUGAR Volt Program, run by a company that is failing on several fronts and a Federal Government institution famous for busting budget with astronomical figures, I thought I would look up exactly how much the American Tax Payer has to bleed for this Soviet Era program. And wouldn't you know… Even the figures are kept Soviet Style! In other words: - The figures are SECRET. The budget overruns are SECRET. They obviously do not want the Americans forced to pay for this nonsense to know how much of their money is being wasted or who is getting rich in the process. Nothing new there. That's how all these "green" projects are run, while Child Slave Labor is rampant, mining minerals for the "Green Elite's" battery packs and the Planet isn't being saved by The Gas of Life, CO₂ - but rather poisoned by highly toxic mining operations and the dumping of toxic batteries at the end of their life-time.
Boeing has experienced significant budget overruns in other NASA projects like the Space Launch System (SLS) and the Commercial Crew Program's Starliner. For instance, the SLS project has seen billions in overruns due to delays and technical challenges. Similarly, the Starliner program has faced considerable cost overruns, with Boeing reporting losses totaling $1.5 billion as of 2023. It is quite frankly shocking that they waste money on these Neo-Marxist Pipe Dreams when the company is in shambles. And it isn't only the American Tax Payer who has to pick up the bill for this. It's also the Customer of the Aviation Industry in more expensive aircraft and higher Air Cargo prices.
I can guarantee that there is no "Man Made Climate Change". I can guarantee that there won't be any "Man Made Climate Change". In a century or so, when we will start thinking about alternative sources of Energy, a Free & Open Market will see to that. And at that point, there will be much more Common Sense moving things forward. That is really the only thing that has successfully been at the root of EVERY Innovation in Aviation!
I agree with your conclusions about the ATR 72, Fly with Magnar, which earned you one more subscription! 👍
Your aeronautical analysis is so vague to be worthless and your political ramblings confirm that you are a little touched in the head.
Hi Magnar, Thank you for another excellent video. I hope there will be more of the same type of videos in the future, such as comparing engine power. I've heard that the ATR is underpowered compared to other aircraft.
Great explanation! What about the Shorts with that fat square shape fuselage and wings with a very short chord...
Totally agree about the wings.
What a great explanation and video. Thank you Captain!
Considering that CoP moves backwards when using high-lift devices (flaps), would it be fair to say that short-cord wings are also more stable as this CoP displacement is less pronounced? Valid only for situations of configuration change - transition from clean wing to flaps extended, of course.
Thanks!
I missed some information about the airfoil Profiles(s) used - Does it have any effect on "good nature" or susceptibility to icing?
I'm working on a video about the wing profile..
@FlywithMagnar I remember some accidents years ago with Fokker in Northern America (?) and all over the world. Severe icing... (corr: some accidents with Fokker 28 and 100 since 1969, in North Am. was at "la guardia")
There have been at least 5 accidents with Fokker 28 and Fokker 100 because they were not properly de-iced before takeoff. The wings do not have leading edge slats, and that make them more vulnerable to ice.
Why people comments are like all are specialists in aviation? ATR 72 is a good plane. We use it in Romania for years and no problems! Is perfect for short haul.
so far your luck has held up, and it's only a matter of time. It's about safety margins. You may never see a crash, but the probability is worse here than others - that's all
@gendaminoru3195
G'day,
Stop trolling.
I doubt if you could design and make a functional Origami Aeroplane from a fresh clean sheet of paper.
The Brazillian Crash was due to
GROSS Pilot Error,
Not anything
Wrong with the Wing.
Grow up, you whining carping whinging childish
Ignoramus.
Come back after you
Master
Puberty.
;-p
Ciao
@@gendaminoru3195 If you think so please detaliate!
Same for Vietnam. Flew on it all the time when i was a kid. Never had any problem in Vietnam
So few sold because of these problems.....oh wait!
The early ATR had it's original design de-ice boots changed basically to ease manufacturer and costs. There was a prohibition of flying it in icing conditions. The ATR 72 is basically an upsized ATR 42. I'm not sure if the icing condition prohibition is stroll in effect. It is possible to encounter unpredicted icing conditions at altitude.
Icing is still an issue for the ATR72...
I flew on the A72 from Athens to Crete Chania in October 2024. I did have the accident in Brazil in mind. The flight was very pleasant actually. I had expected the noise level to be high based on past experiences decades ago on similar propellor planes but I was pleasantly surprised. At no time did I feel that the A72 is unstable or dangerous. ATR planes have had issues in cold conditions with de-icing etc. before. Thats what may have happened again in Brazil this year. No such conditions in Greece in October. Sunshine and 24 degrees C.
Bumbling around at 21000ft in the tops of the clouds, picking up ice & stuck in all the weather. Sorry but did it for 18 months & much prefer flying around now at 40000ft @ M0.85. Good luck all.👍
Thank you, Magnar for the very informative comparison and explanation!
The ATR-72 seems to be a fine airplane. Its limitations are real, but very well known.
So why is it that so many pilots operate it not knowing these limitations, or not operating within them?
ATRs are flown by airlines in countries with deficient oversight and training, for example Yeti in Nepal. That's consistent with the fact that many ATR crashes are attributed to unprofessional piloting.
Excellent video
It’s important for people to understand that, when it comes to physics, freedom of opinions and common sense don’t count, only verified facts and understanding of the theory, will give you predictions capabilities.
I love it when he starts off with "I am Manya Noodle". Then I know we are off to a good aviation yarn. And ex Mig 21 fighter pilot, too. Cheers to Magnar 😅
If you can fly a MiG-21 you can fly anything.
Thank you, very informative. ATRs serve Guernsey, a Channel Island where I come from. I do know that the wings have an iceing problem. In the case of the brazilian crash, however, multiple warnings were ignored for about 30 minutes and necessary measures not taken by the pilots.
What do you think of rogue feathers (flaps) on aircraft of the future? Would this be something for the ATR?
Cebu Pacific has operated the ATR for years never had an accidents.
One significant negative aspect of the ATR 72's wing design that wasn't mentioned here is that it appears to have no washout, whether aerodynamic twist or geometric twist. This increases efficiency of a high aspect ratio wing, but creates adverse stalling characteristics, as the entire wing will tend to stall at once, as opposed to more favorable stalling characteristics where the root stalls before the tips.
Accurate, but partial explanation regarding the wing loading factor. Very well noticed by this commentator, aditional reference to wing washout.
Further, why can it be argued that ATR has flawed wing design?
Wing loading, is one very important aerodynamic parameter, and here ATR seems to be within the technical norms, aligned with the competition.
This ATR instructor however, forgets to mention one CRUCIAL aspect, that makes ATR more demanding, i.e. dangerous airplane to fly, if not treated with extreme caution by it's pilots.
And it is the supercritical profile of the wing it has been designed with.
Supercritical profile is very fuel-efficient, and has excellent performance parameters - in near ideal, optimum conditions.
However an airplane that is utilized in public transport, has to be certified to fly in real - time range of meteorogical conditions, that includes icing conditions.
This is where an ATR differs to similarly designed aircraft.
Unfortunately, it's supercritical profile deteriorates, in turn creating much more drag, with the MINIMUM amounts of ICE on the wings.
The fact is that almost ALL the ATR accidents with catastrophic outcome have happened in icing conditions, combined with often various levels of neglect or direct errors commitied by it's crew in these challenging conditions, which in turn resulted in unfortunate outcome of crew losing control of the aircraft.
So, yes, it can be argued that ATR is a flawed design.
Even ATR engineers and pruducer have tacitly acknowledged that by introducing non-icing and icing speeds into it's standard operations.
Overall performance is also sub-par comparing with the direct competition.
I personally have encountered icing while flying an ATR thousands of times, and never had an issue. But I can also vouch, and advise any ATR operator, to treat it with extreme caution during operation in Icing conditions! Much more so then any other aircraft I have flown in the last 40 years, and counting.
This statement by an EX-ATR 7000 hours captain.
Is this worth flying now in MSFS2020 after the recent update from Hans
The horizontal stabiliser being further back does increase short period pitch stability, but you also have to consider the effect of the longer fuselage itself. The longitudinal moment of inertia of the fuselage has also increased which destabilises the short period pitching mode. It's hard to say what the overall net effect is but if they didn't resize the horizontal tail, then it probably didn't change all that much.
The Fairchild Metro had a similar problem, the wings were too short. I am led to believe that speeds had to be higher that average to keep safe lift.I was told by a pilot that if you lost an engine on one of those, the outcome was normally very bleak.
Observations from South Africa
The Metro was fine on one engine. Quite normal. Maybe he was talking about the early versions that had a slightly shorter wing.
Probably referring to landing configuration. If you lose an engine you need to clean it up ASAP as it sinks on one engine with flaps and gear out
But this is the same problem with many privet jets too, once the engines stop working the jet just plummets to the ground like on a free fall, this idiotic way of designing passenger aircraft needs to stop.
I think that's more an issue of power and it's distribution... this seems one of those planes where the engine creates a lot of drag fairly far out from the CG. basically it's difference between Stall-Speed & Vref is quite a bit higher than on many comparable planes.
I believe the plane also had another problem, to lift more they stuck on wing extensions but didn't add aileron extensions, so slow speed flying was more 'difficult'. Look up Cork disaster a few years back?
4:08 it’s totally insane that a square meter can lift (with margins) nearly one ton. Unbelievable, you could fly a car with 2m2
It is not so insane when you realise that standard atmospheric pressure is around 10000kg/m2. So wing profile only changes this pressure by tiny amount to get required lift, for egxample on the upper surface 10200kg/m2 and on the lower 9800kg/m2 then you get wing load of 400kg/m2.
For me it is really mind-breaking
The issue is airspeed on the wing, the propeller driven crafts will land slower thus may need more wing area I suppose.
Good analysis on your presentation. The thing about those high aspect ratio wings not mentioned here is that there wings seem to be more unstable then most other wings when it comes to contamination ice buildup.
Those wings rather put me in mind of the Hurel Dubois of similar appearance. Its wings were similarly slim but had a larger span because it was designed as a STOL craft.
I completely agree with your analysis. This makes the wing even more sensitive to airfoil contamination by ice, with results we have already seen.
Indeed I always wondered how they could fly - at all. Thanks!
How well do they glide, when both engines fail?
Like a brick, I suspect.
The sad reality of the time we leave in is that the person's video is likely to be viewed and shared so much more than your video... And their video will therefore be viewed as fact by many, despite his disclaimer... We live in an age where experts are relegated by casual commentators who are at the high ignorance and high confidence point of the Dunning Kruger effect curve.
Statiscally ATR is one the least safe aircraft manufacturers of commercial passenger aircraft. Only Sukhoi is less safe. Does that mean it's an unsafe aircraft? No. There are plenty of high aspect ratio aircraft that are safe, look at Diamond DA40/50/62 with a wing that's very difficult to stall. I think that ATR has particular issues with icing and it's t-tail which seems to contribute to uncontrollable spins. What's historically was perhaps unhelpful re ATR is that the manufacturer and BEA weren't particularly honest about rhe issues the aircraft had. It's clear that whilst the ATR is mostly okay, there are a particular but rare subset of environmental conditions which can lead to an unrecoverable outcome.
Statistics can be deceiving. Until the accident in Paris in 2000, Concorde was the safest airliner in the world. A single accident made it the most unsafe airliner, if you compare it with the number of flights or hours flown. Most airline accidents do not happen because of the design of the aircraft, but because of inadequate training and discipline.
Most accidents happen during takeoffs and landings. The ATR flies short routes (= many takeoffs and landings), often to less-equipped airports with no ILS, often in parts of the world with tricky weather, sometimes in parts of the world where regulatory oversight over pilot training is not as strict. So the statistics might not be telling you the whole story.
@@FlywithMagnar Concorde had problems with its tyres from the beginning of its service life but its operators ignored the warning signs until it was too late.
The uprated Concorde B was to have more efficient engines and a larger wing with leading edge slats allowing for slower landing speeds but the tyre problem was deemed unimportant.
@@FlywithMagnarthere was 14 concorde produced, there are 1300 atr72 produced.
Atr72 is well into the range where the satistics are stable..really for aircraft is alreddy stable at about 100 units and about 20 years.
So no, statistics is not missleading, concorde was a outlier due to the low number produced.
@@matsv201 The issue with statistics is that correlation do not necessary imply causation. In that case like @FlywithMagnar pointed out, many other factors such as crew training will impact accidents.
The ATRs are often used by cash-strapped airlines, in environments where regulations are low to non-existent. So chances of accidents will go up in that environment.
It's almost as if some smart engineers designed the airplane with careful calculations and math and stuff! They figured out what size the wing should be before building it and flying it for almost 40 years!
and 4 unnecessary crash with total loss of life because of the design that would have been easy to avoid with calculations. PS X-66 won't fly in 2028...
@@gendaminoru3195
That accidents have nothing to do with the Aircraft.
@@Hausgridoh yeah the de-icing boot size definitely did nothing to help with the rapid unscheduled disassembly
If you have a lower wing loading you have a higher sealing, that means less drag
I suppose the only real criticism is that once it stops flying and starts falling, it's very hard or impossible to start it flying again (as with the Brazil crash). But the pilots appear to have ignored a lot of warnings about the ice building up before that happened.
Not if you apply the correct stall recovery procedure as described in the FCOM. The main reason for loss of control in flight of both Voepass 2282 and American 4184 was inproper stall recovery technic and especially the fact that flaps 15 was not selected.
@@lindegaardhjorth It wasn't 'just' a stall. It was a flat spin, and those are nearly impossible to recover from in that aircraft.
@@pakviroti3616 The thing is that as far as I know, no transport aircraft is rated for a flat spin recovery, and procedures in the FCOM for all those aircrafts are planned to keep you as far as possible from a flat spin situation. So if someone manage to get into a situation like that in these aircrafts (not only the ATR, but all transport aircraft), they were already way past the point of no-return
Stalling is not a problem. If there is sufficient altitude, the recovery can be made safely by a pilot following the manufactures recommended procedures. Spinning is a whole different matter outside of the aircraft certification. It can be extremely difficult or even impossible for a multi-engine aircraft to recover from a fully developed spin.
Unless you’re up in the flight levels that’s true for any transport category airplane.
0:24 What the hell is this guy talking about ? Its exactly the opposite ! High wing loading makes the aircraft more stable when facing gusts!!!!
Its AI-generated trash
A flying brick is also impervious to gusts.
Stalls and spins entering and recovering is the problem with high wind loading aircrafts.
A lawn dart is pretty stable in wind gusts also. I wouldn’t really want to fly on one though.
Fokker 50 Wing loading: 297.4 kg/m2 (60.9 lb/sq ft)
That inital voice over sounded familiar. It sounds like the same guy from ATR72-600 computer based training modules
The ATR is a fantastic aircraft to fly. It is so much fun and teaches you some real skills. Fancy Airbus guys (which I used to be before my ATR adventure) of course don't get this :)
Im a self proclaimed Airbus Fanboy 😁, but love my ATR in MSFS. I spend a fair amount of time flying the ATR in sim, and enjoy the attention it requires
As an ATC, I need a separation of at least 7 minutes before letting any other aircraft depart after the ATR. Unless it’s an unpowered hang glider, then 5 minutes is enough.
Agreed. I have 2000+ hours on the ATR. It handles perfectly fine. I've experienced maximum demonstrated crosswind and pretty awful turbulance without problems.
Really glad to read this 😊
@@DinoAlberini "As an ATC, I need a separation of at least 7 minutes before letting any other aircraft depart after the ATR"
Why? It is not like it is A380. Or did you mean BEFORE?
The Fokker (Fairchild) F-27 also had quite high aspect ratio wings for it's era and weight, probably much less wing loading that the ATR-72. It's known for it's ability with climbing out steeply. (for it's era..) with the rather marginal power of the Rolls Royce Dart turboprops. Recall that this airplane was tasked with replacing the DC-3 at regional airports. I remember when our airport was serviced by West Coast Airline's DC-3 and then the Fokker F-27 replaced these old 1930's era airplanes.
Great video. I prefer an assessment of an aircraft’s design, efficiency & stability to be based on physics and aerospace engineering, rather than assertion or opinion.
Apakah bisa diperlebar tanpa perombakan besar...?
Great explanations
From what I read about aircraft design, the centre of gravity of an aircraft must be within certain limits for stability. The limits are informed by the mean aerodynamic chord of the wing, which is just the width of its wings when viewed from the side. If an aircraft has a high aspect ratio wing, it may well be efficient, but the mean chord is shorter, making the allowance for variation in the centre of gravity smaller, therefore impinging on its stability.
Pilots flying whatever airplane they happen to fly must consider said airplane's envelope, and operate within its boundaries, but that doesn't detract from the fact that an airplane with thinner wings will be more difficult to stabilise during an upset, and in some cases it will be impossible to do so, if the upset is bad enough.
A less stable airplane is inherently more dangerous to fly, and an airplane with narrow wings is less stable than one with wide wings as a matter of fact.
I wouldn't be afraid of flying in an ATR 72 though. Its designers made it a little less stable for efficiency, and I trust most pilots flying it have received appropriate training, and didn't pass their check rides due to nepotism. This is not to claim that I know for a fact that this happened in any particular case, but I have been a member of multiple cultures, and know that some have a more lenient attitude towards bending the rules than others, and a correspondingly higher accident rate.
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The ATR 72 has a good safety record, with only a few significant incidents. The ATR 72 is a popular choice for regional flights and has been in service for nearly 36 years. Here are some details about the ATR 72's safety record:
Fatal accidents
The ATR 72 has been involved in 13 accidents with at least one fatality as of August 2024. The first fatal accident was American Eagle Flight 4184 in 1994, which resulted in 68 fatalities. The most recent fatal accident was Voepass Linhas Aéreas Flight 2283 in August 2024, which resulted in 62 fatalities.
I love it when TH-camrs make statements like "the wings of aircraft XY are too small", especially if there's a lot of those aircraft are flying safely all over the world since years and years...
Thanks for your professional comment on this (and other!) topic, I really love to see you debunk all those myths.
Social media definitely have their good sides, but there is a lot of people who claim to know something about a specific topic, and in reality, they know nothing about it.
"Aviation" channels seem to be one of the favorite targets for those amateurs, and that's the reason why channels like yours, Blancolirio, or Mentour Pilot (amongst others) are so important.
Thank you Captain Magnar for your excellent work, your unbiased conclusions, and your professinal attitude that is providing us with a lot of content that is really worth watching!
I agree totally with you.
We know that ATR are not suited for freezing wings.
It is the duty of the pilots to ensure themselves and their passengers that they won't cross these meteorological conditions.
I worked as Cabin Crew on the ATR 72-600, My only issue is the heat in the cabin which is horrific on the ground.
Two years ago, ATR upgraded the air conditioning system. It works much better!
@@FlywithMagnar That's a relief! It was sometimes so criminally hot in the cabin. I do love the ATR though have very fond memories of the Aircraft :)
you can have both; as the MU-2 has shown. It is both fast and can take off from short runways. They can do this because they put huge flaps on it.
MU-2 has less wing loading than ATR 42, and with double slotted flaps all the way to the wingtip, it has good runway performance.
Two MU-2s went down in flat spins within the space of a couple of years in outback Western Australia. Both with icing problems.
@@redtale6527 Sounds like freak accident. Truth is, those birds are some of the best turboprops ever made; japanese quality. known people who flew them, and they said it was their favorite plane. They also said they need to be flown like jets, not turboprops ....
@@alexanderordinary2110 Yep, we had an accident in the province I live (Quebec) where a popular media personality lost his life when the MU-2 he was a passenger on crashed in the Iles-de-la-Madelaines. And one thing that got out of the TSB report is how the PIC did not have the experience required to pilot the MU-2 correctly, trying to fly it like any other turboprop on approach. The MU-2 require a specific type rating for a reason
You can but sacrifices were made, the MU-2 had a slimmer tolerance for poor pilotage than comparable aircraft like the C441 Conquest. Because of the full length flaps, the tanks were moved to wingtips which led to an unrecoverable spin characteristic and also spoilers instead of ailerons were a bit different for transitioning pilots. A great plane but it demanded respect that many pilots over the year did not give it
I think the biggest issue with the Atr 72 is that the engines grossly underpowered as compared to the Dash 8 Q400
as comparably compared with the comparison
The Q400 is considered to be overpowered - it’s also faster at the cost of efficiency. The ATR has engines designed for peak efficiency while remaining “normally” sized for its mtow and performance.
What? The ATR has a power to weight ratio higher than most WWII fighters. It’s not underpowered at all.
@daveb4446 The ATR 72 has SHP of 2,400 per engine. The Q400 has over 5000 SHP. Sorry but you've been misinformed
@@philipdw6954When replying to a comment, it is advisable to read and understand the comment you are replying to!
Whenever i see ATR 72 wings, i am reminded of B-24 Liberators.
Are you sure you don't mean the Martin B-26 Marauder? It used to be called the Baltimore whore because it had no visible means of support. 😂
It's so refreshing to hear an expert explaining the basics of wing design. It really gets me when people start knocking a design when they don't understand the basics of aerodynamics and aircraft design. Worst still is the icing theory. If you go back to what happened in Brazil, that plane should never have been flying with all the maintenance issues it had, and definitely not in that weather with those faults. Let's not go to the basics pilot errors... Any plane with the same issues and weather conditions and pilot mistakes would have gone down.
Flew in atr felt very nice
ATR72 is not unstable - obviously, it's just that alpha is more important and there is no tolerance for ice accumulation given the short chord. Not good for Part 125. As long as crew training is impeccable and you don't push your luck in icing conditions, you can roll the dice. ATR72 has very powerful engines making it easier to manage, but classic issues still exist which cause spins and accelerated stalls. But don't push your luck with this bird. All ATR72 crew should have specialized remedial and periodic training added, including upset recovery - Voepass allowed the forward speed to go to zero and kept it that way with high power as they spun. While you do have some forward speed left, you gotta get the nose down and then go through spin recovery. It was so tragic to watch that thing just spiraling hopelessly into the ground. But they ignored all the warning signs and then didn't know how to recover. Training every 6 months with added icing and upset recovery is needed.
The algorithm brought me to you for the first time, and when the first thing I heard was an AI voice spouting nonsense, I almost closed the video! I think if you do something like this again, you should introduce yourself first, just so first time viewers won't mistake your channel for AI clickbait.
Thank you for your feedback. I’ll be sure to follow your advice the next time I use AI.
Armchair engineers! Lol
We cannot argue with your analysis but I would point out that my home airport IOM, is noted for the worst weather possible and many years of benign Dash-8 flying never caused concern. However, on switching to the ATR's, immediately one became aware of something not 'right' on final approach/flaring. As a single engine PPL with many types logged, flying qualities are paramount and the first ATR problems I believe were aerodynamic tail blanking at slow speed, and just sitting in the back of one in difficult conditions dose my confidence no good! You Guys up front concentrating hard, might never 'enjoy' the arse clenching the cattle class endure!
u r spot on
Excellent description for the average person to grasp. Unfortunately the average person has been so poorly educated even this simple straight forward explanation will fall on deaf ears and they will rather believe sensationalized idiots elsewhere. But do continue to debunk these silly notions. Thank you.
It is designed to go from A-B for as little fuel as possible. If it stall speed is higher you just fly it faster.
Wingload dont tell the full story. Specially for regonal airlines.
The problem is how weight is messured. As a avrage.for passangers and bagage.
There are two main issues with that.
1: the statistics underestimate the actual weight by a huge margine. This is less so of a problem with planes with higher range because a larger procentage of the weight is fuel, so if the passanger is 25-30% wrong only give a error of 2-5% of the total weight.
For a plane with short range, this is very diffrent. Hence overloading is more so a problem.
2: there is one more issue with a short cord. The aircraft stall at a lowet angle of attack. This combine with a lowet power is a issue (atr72 have about half the power per weight a 737 does. At lower speed this is not really a issue due to the disc area. But when speeds are at flying speed, specially with out flaps depoyed, the aircraft can stall suddenly and violently with the engine having little chance of pulling the plane out of the stall.
A very interesting point of view.
All I have to say is are any of these people making comments, aeronautical engineers? If not then shut the hell up. That aircraft is a very good aircraft. Don’t let the looks fool you. It’s a very stable. It’s been in use for many years and just because of what accident you can’t say that there’s flaws with it because there’s not.
Of course... I really doubt they would send an inadequate design for certification then building it because "sure, what the hell".
Saying that a high-aspect-ratio wing is uNsTaBLe certainly goes against everything I've experienced about aircraft design....and I'm my aviation experience is at best charitably considered a plane spotter.
We can't say that now as they were flying safe all around the world.
Im sure there was all kinds of aerodynamic testing done
Well there was a lot of testing on the max 737 too and look what ended up happening after. Your point?
@lcfflc3887 that was because they kept it a secret
Tha ATR wing is fine so long as there is no ice on it.
I don't understand where all the hate for the ATR comes from. I have to admit that I have never flown on one, as I just never had the opportunity to do it, but (as long as I would fly on any aircraft operated by that airline*) I would not hesitate to do it if I had the chance.
*) Just to exclude operators with sketchy maintenance or sub-standard crew training, as they would be more dangerous, without blaming the ATR for that fact
Like the Dakota DC3 that on paper and therotically could not fly
BWB aircraft design and flying wing solves this problem
When I saw the title of this video I was prepared to strongly disagree. I did not need to. 😄
Hello Magnar.
I used to fly Saab2000 (Concordino), one of the most advanced turboprop aircraft, back in the 90s. Its wing area was not bigger than ATR's. We could climb to FL 310 in 10 minutes (before RVSM rules).
But we had powerful Allison engines.
The problem with the ATR is not only the wing design but also the underpowered engines.
For a wing design to be called a "masterpiece" they would have to be designed with the ability to handle a nominal amount of icing and not kill everyone onboard. Don't you think?
No, you are wrong about the wings too small. To reduce approach and landing speed you need sophisticated flaps. Comparing to other aircraft does not make sense at all. Owned a MU2 which is the same concept, had other problems, but not because the wing load was close to a B737.
nice
I think the Dash 8 is a measurably better plane than the ATR...
What about wing thickness. Why ice buildup is so easy in this aircraft? What about FLAT SPIN? Why this aircraft is so sensitive at vertical windshear? If you play the game of the bad guys (HIDE) then we will see the same accidents and incidents
A thin wing can accumulate more ice than a thick wing. Very often, the stabilizer (which is thin) has more ice than the wing.
An aircraft will only enter a spin if it is stalled first. Then, you must push full rudder. To enter a flat spin, you must enter a spin and add power (this is what happened in Brazil) or have a center of gravity too far aft.
ATR aircraft are protected against that. Before the aircraft stalled, the crew received 5 warnings from the aircraft, including a loud stall warning, stick shaker, and stick pusher forcing the control column forward. Despite this, the nose of the aircraft did not move down, suggesting the pilot was opposing the stick pusher. It's like a car driver in a moment of confusion is hitting the accelerator instead of the brake pedal.
@ ATR has a lot of systems to fight ICE. More than others. WHY? How do you explain the fast ice buildup with a thick wing? This is the worst airplane on icing conditions I ever flew ( T-37, C-212, C-337, JS-41, C-560)
It is more to do with the altitude these planes fly most often. They can't fly above the weather
@@esphilee You are right. But the question is why this airplane is so special with ice. The ice effect in this airplane is worst than others.
Haha 😜 it is FINE - it’s not like they test aircraft or anything lol 😜
With 1200 hours in the piece of shit I can say it's an excellent hot weather airplane. It can operate into small fields, in hot weather (doesn't mean it's anywhere near comfortable inside lol), fill every seat with people and both cargos with their bags, and do well. It's performance in cold weather way overshadows that success though. After my last flight on it I have not, and will not get on one again. And I fly the MAX now 😂
It cannot plane if engine fails
I hate flying on these styles of aircraft, they are so susceptible to wind gusts and bounce around all over the place during landing.
Flown on the ATR 72 seven times. Never any issue. Flown on the 200, 500 and 600 versions
el atr 72 y el atr 42 su problema real es su ineficaz antihielo y deshielo del ala, tanto que tienen prohibido volar en zonas norte de EEUU y Canada. Esta bien para volar en italia y francia donde se diseño.
Opinions are like A holes everybody has one
It is very small for this aircraft!! Small wings are install in combat airplanes for instability ( on purpose) jet engines sustain the plane but once engines dessingaged aircfraft rapidly descend but in combat thats very important. In this airplane makes it questionable!!!
In fighter jets the excessive extra power from the engines compensate for the the lack of big wings.
The ATR's are unsafe? wait untill we tell the pilots, they'll be aghast that they've been flying a death machine without knowing, that information would've been useful at some point before 2000 of them were built LoL
The size of the chord of the wing was tampered in the thumbnail. Then you can expect to be denounced for disinformation.
It certainly looks like it. How could a skinny wing like that generate any lift at all.
The fact that it can't fly in known icing is enough to get me to look for another plane.
Well it's a very controversial subject and not official because in Canada they use this airplane a lot and they don't crash everyday.
ATR is certified for flight in icing conditions. What it is not certified for, is flight in severe icing (freezing rain.)
Bloody design was stretched and shouldn't have been due to the type of airfoil used... It is as if they thought that the ere would be more children, but the fact is that there are more fat people and they are not leaving their luggage behind.