As an EDM guy I have to put sidechaining into A-tier, pretty sure it's a contractual obligation. That said, there's so much more creativity to sidechaining than just pulling a bassline out of the way of a kick. I've done ambient pieces with 4 different arps playing all at once drifting in and out of focus controlled by a hierarchy of sidechains, brought aggressive distortion to a pad sound controlled by sidechain, alternated FX sends by the CV of a sidechain, etc. If you're using it as a band aid for an otherwise lackluster groove/mix, yeah that's a D-tier move, but I think using sidechain to control elements of your mix rhythmically is a much smarter move. I think there's also room for a difference of opinion here, I work in 99% electronic music, so reverb is also very important to what I'm doing for creating a sense of space/hierarchy in the music I'm working on. But then the 2-3 times I've worked on live recordings I find they don't need reverb at all other than as an occasional effect.
nice detail about wider: Your tracks can benefit from widened mono channels without compromising the phase between the sides. Wider can be used to increase the stereo image of any mono signal up to 200% of full stereo for an extra wide, exaggerated effect. Because Wider cancels itself out when summed to mono, you can widen your tracks as much as you like without worrying over keeping your original signal intact.
Yes to a degree but I have not come across a widener on a mono track that sounds like a real stereo processing when widened. It simply does not sound as exciting. Just wide. I barely use my Leapwing Stage One imager cause even though it is fully mono compatible and can do wonders , wonders always come with a price. You can easily overdo it even with this plugin. Playing with phase coherency is one of the most exciting things to do. To simply find the boundary of when its too much. However what you say makes a lot of sense on club oriented or in general mono compatibility aimed tracks that are being created in a "needs to be mono compatible" mind state as first priority and then adding some imaging so they don't sound boring in stereo. In other words , I agree with what you say only I don't find it an all around solution that always works. Sometimes you want this extra something that only risking everything in the real stereo domain can give you
Putting aside your personal choices that make up the tier list, having done a video like this is really helpful for everyone because it shows how everyone is different, and techniques are really useful if you want them to be part of your solving problem tools. If you're doing great with certain tools and not with others, doing great is what matters.
Ok, I'm going to write down my top 3 mixing techniques before watching your video... and at the end I will write another comment that replies to this one. 1. Microdelays on reamped or multi-miced instruments. This one's pretty specific to rock music, but it can be super powerful to shape the tone of something like that. 2. Glue. No matter if saturation or compression, but when you put 2 different instruments into the same group and then process them together they automatically come closer. 3. Parallel-Reverb (Dry, Room, Reasonably Sized Hall, Unreasonable Ambiance) for precise layers of depth. These are in no particular order btw. I like all of them the same
Ok, now I watched your entire video and it's funny. The things that I chose are all over the place in your tier list :D Starting with Microdelays. This is basically what you called "Phase Alignment". Definitely S-tier. Even though I would like to stress I love doing this manually. Cause you used some plugin thumbnail to reference this technique there and I know this plugin can do auto-alignment for you. Idk if you use that feature but I tried to use it myself like a month ago in different plugins' demos and I always found that the results were really inconsistent and haven't blown me away. So I ended up just applying microdelays by feel, the simplest form and most oldschool way, and that just felt so right. Cause sometimes I feel like the alignment of maximum correlation is not the same as the one with maximum vibe. Now Glue. That one's funny. You called it Group Bus Processing and put it right in the trashcan of D-tier :D I mean, I totally get what you mean. Especially if you use multiband plugins on those buses, the phase reslationship with some of the other tracks just gets messy sometimes. But I feel like this is just the compromise for the thickness you get from this process. Without group bus processing a mix can feel hanging loose and I don't like that. I'd rather have some trouble keeping the phase between a bunch of tracks nice. And finally Parallel-Reverb, which you called Parallel Processing in general. Yeah, I should have generalized it more as well. Sometimes I love putting 4 compressors in parallel or something. And ofc, just as you mentioned, you can just add even more effects to each chain. It's just awesome! --- Now here are some more things I noticed during the video: You completely forgot to mention modulation effects, like flanger, phaser, tremolo, vibrato, frequency shifter, pitchshifter, allpass filter etc. I know these are typically used more creatively and because of that sometimes frowned upon by mixing people, but don't underestimate them! A subtle phaser for example can be just the right tool to make a sound breathe while also adding a bit of stereo width. A frequency shifter can be the perfect tool to add some subtle shimmer on a reverb send. A series of allpass filters can be the perfect tool to round off a kick's lowend etc. Gating sucks. It's way too aggressive, just as you mentioned. But try downwards expanders, if you haven't already. Especially those with lookahead, like pro-mb in singleband mode. You'll see it lets you dial in the dynamics much more delicately and because of that find their place on a lot of drum mics without making the jumpy phase relationships obvious. (But still be careful with rides ofc) You have put multiband processing in general very low, but I'd like to stress that at least multiband saturation can be super effective. Because there's a thing called "intermodulation" which basically means the more frequencies you saturate at the same time the more they produce weird artefacts that go beyond just adding harmonics and that causes clutter in the spectrum. so splitting a complex signal into lots of bands, while surely adding problematic phase relationships, also makes sure the intermodulation stays low, which i find very valuable sometimes, at least on sounds that don't have to worry a lot about phase
Mid-Side EQ is god-tier for getting width out of a track in a very organic way. Look up Nolly's top-down technique using uneven mid-side EQ. Also for taking low end out of the stereo spectrum. While you can artificially create the effect with different techniques, mid-side is by far one of the easiest.
@@panorama_mastering straight mid/side with Pro-Q 3. Just highpass everything under (100-140 depending on the track) out of the stereo spectrum. Keep your bass and kick mono down the center and give them room to smack. Don't want your kick smothering the low end clarity of your stereo elements (specifically for rock/metal guitars, but applies to synths in pop/EDM as well).
i've agreed with everything so far until you got to sidechaining...i'd move that to C i think. but only in cases where getting the kick & bass really demands something outside of just EQ and levels. i like to use very momentary sidechain ducking that you can hardly notice, just to give the kick a few milliseconds to occupy some more space. if there's a sustainy kick i don't use that kick to inform the compressor. i'll use a stick click sample or something and just remove its output signal. half the time i do this i am actually using the sidechain of a dynamic EQ rather than a compressor and just ducking the subs. something i've learned though is that there's nothing wrong with the kick and the bass occupying the same frequency range if it sounds fine. don't fix what isn't broken. not everything needs its own space where nothing else can live. mixes that are done like that sound lifeless and weird. so i don't go carving a bunch of shit out if it's not necessary. but in some cases with really loud powerful bass heavy mixes, i find a little ducking useful. this works great in all kinds of genres. but that's just my thinking. many engineers don't touch it, and that's fine too! oh yes, gating, especially on live drums...it's the worst! do big time engineers even do this? it's the advice people give all the time but it sounds like shit. and aside from phase issues, there's nothing worse than cymbal or hi hat brightness coming in when the snare is hit and then immediately disappearing. horrible. i try my best to get drum mixes sounding good with lots of compromise happening. mixing drums is a huuuuge compromise which is why you really need them tracked well. otherwise it's just a shit show.
i think the problem is that most people think they need to use pro-c2's pump mode when using sidechain because it was designed for that, but they should try opto every once in a while, which gives a much more subtle flavour that is more suitable for less aggressive genres
took note to what you mentioned about side info, for me personally when i solo the side info, for me in the most part its very small in the mix, and even with edgyness or harshness, which something like the instruments or vocal already having a hpf on them would of or should of took care of, glad you brought that up, because watching TH-cam ive never seen anyone mention it like that
Very interesting. I wonder how your mix approach looks like when you don't use bus processing. Could you explain just a little bit how your overall signal flow looks like? Not in detail, just your signal flow paradigm. Cause I did more and more bus processing essentially deriving from the top down mixing paradigm. It's cool because you not get lost too much in details and shape the overall sound more. Of course, there's still processing happening on individual tracks. But how do you do that? Also CPU wise...how do you do all processing then?
Everything outputs to the mix bus and any “group” style processing or heavy handed fx goes on parallel channels feeding the mix bus. I can control overall group levels with vca faders
Great video! Michael Brauer is my favorite mix engineer and although I mix mostly Pop, R&B and Rap, I still use ABCD busing. I've never had to chase my tail with group busing and in the end, I get more than 3dB of volume after processing. It's a must, for not all, but most of my mixes.
Found your channel a few weeks ago and really digging it, mate. Btw, where would you put resonance suppressors (Like Soothe2, Dseq3 etc.) and spectral balancers (Smooth Operator, Gullfoss etc.) ??
S tier is bread and butter for engineers and therefore correct but that besides, flipping your list upside down would be Luca Pretolesi´s top tier list as he uses top down and group mixing. He also uses mid/side and multiband tools. He uses multiband stereo enhancements on groups. 😅 Basically the opposite of your routine/taste. Not saying he´s the holy grail of mixing but it shows that these lists are just based on personal taste and have nothing to do with a great outcome.
This video and the mastering sister video for me have been some of the best lessons this year... thanks a lot... please would it be possible to get a summary of both as a PDF so we can remind ourselves how to prioritize processes? Thank you
Hey Man; Thanks; really appreciate it; I think perspective is important; but also context; every process, approach and tool can be S tier given the right set of circumstances; what I hope these videos do is stimulate viewers to consider how and why they do certain things; that's the most important;
@@panorama_mastering Free is way too cheap, your content is super useful and interesting. However, I subscribed to your newsletter but I can't find the download link anywhere for those Valhalla presets, can you help where to look?
You talk about parallel processing a LOT. I'd love a video giving a full run down of your favorite parallel chains and what you have going on in them that makes them a go-to when mixing for you
@@panorama_mastering both, but mostly different. I think this is very classic. But it took way too long to successfully chain compressors... Getting used to it. It's just clearer. Probably worth adding are: knee, side chain filtering
Great vid as always! :) As many I put sidechaining in the A-tier, so much you can do with it, creatively and to make room, definitely A-tear for me. Indeed electronic music guy here.
@@panorama_mastering copy! Ty so much. I did start to split the stereo bus with 2 aux tracks pre of the stereo bus. All channels get sent to those two tracks, I have dr.midside, 1 in mid and 1 in side mode, then they both go to the stereo buss. But I don’t exactly know the cut off points of this two plugins. I’ll have to check the phase, ty so much
Mate! Thanks for flagging this, just checked out Auto Align 2; I have a bunch of mixes on the cards this week with live drums; I'm going to definitely upgrade to Align 2
@@panorama_mastering recently tho, I really been dialing in levels and panning and it's been such a massive deal breaker, don't need to process shit as much if the levels are set correctly from jump, and you don't need gimmicky stereo widening tools if the pans are good!
As an EDM guy I have to put sidechaining into A-tier, pretty sure it's a contractual obligation. That said, there's so much more creativity to sidechaining than just pulling a bassline out of the way of a kick. I've done ambient pieces with 4 different arps playing all at once drifting in and out of focus controlled by a hierarchy of sidechains, brought aggressive distortion to a pad sound controlled by sidechain, alternated FX sends by the CV of a sidechain, etc. If you're using it as a band aid for an otherwise lackluster groove/mix, yeah that's a D-tier move, but I think using sidechain to control elements of your mix rhythmically is a much smarter move. I think there's also room for a difference of opinion here, I work in 99% electronic music, so reverb is also very important to what I'm doing for creating a sense of space/hierarchy in the music I'm working on. But then the 2-3 times I've worked on live recordings I find they don't need reverb at all other than as an occasional effect.
Fair enough :) Like I said everything on D-tier isn't uncommon in the EDM world!
Well said. And I think this applies to genres beyond EDM to urban and most Pop today.
Sidechained distortion is a legendary move
nice detail about wider:
Your tracks can benefit from widened mono channels without compromising the phase between the sides.
Wider can be used to increase the stereo image of any mono signal up to 200% of full stereo for an extra wide, exaggerated effect. Because Wider cancels itself out when summed to mono, you can widen your tracks as much as you like without worrying over keeping your original signal intact.
Yes to a degree but I have not come across a widener on a mono track that sounds like a real stereo processing when widened.
It simply does not sound as exciting. Just wide. I barely use my Leapwing Stage One imager cause even though it is fully mono compatible and can do wonders , wonders always come with a price. You can easily overdo it even with this plugin.
Playing with phase coherency is one of the most exciting things to do.
To simply find the boundary of when its too much. However what you say makes a lot of sense on club oriented or in general mono compatibility aimed tracks that are being created in a "needs to be mono compatible" mind state as first priority and then adding some imaging so they don't sound boring in stereo.
In other words , I agree with what you say only I don't find it an all around solution that always works. Sometimes you want this extra something that only risking everything in the real stereo domain can give you
Putting aside your personal choices that make up the tier list, having done a video like this is really helpful for everyone because it shows how everyone is different, and techniques are really useful if you want them to be part of your solving problem tools. If you're doing great with certain tools and not with others, doing great is what matters.
Ok, I'm going to write down my top 3 mixing techniques before watching your video... and at the end I will write another comment that replies to this one.
1. Microdelays on reamped or multi-miced instruments. This one's pretty specific to rock music, but it can be super powerful to shape the tone of something like that.
2. Glue. No matter if saturation or compression, but when you put 2 different instruments into the same group and then process them together they automatically come closer.
3. Parallel-Reverb (Dry, Room, Reasonably Sized Hall, Unreasonable Ambiance) for precise layers of depth.
These are in no particular order btw. I like all of them the same
Ok, now I watched your entire video and it's funny. The things that I chose are all over the place in your tier list :D
Starting with Microdelays. This is basically what you called "Phase Alignment". Definitely S-tier. Even though I would like to stress I love doing this manually. Cause you used some plugin thumbnail to reference this technique there and I know this plugin can do auto-alignment for you. Idk if you use that feature but I tried to use it myself like a month ago in different plugins' demos and I always found that the results were really inconsistent and haven't blown me away. So I ended up just applying microdelays by feel, the simplest form and most oldschool way, and that just felt so right. Cause sometimes I feel like the alignment of maximum correlation is not the same as the one with maximum vibe.
Now Glue. That one's funny. You called it Group Bus Processing and put it right in the trashcan of D-tier :D I mean, I totally get what you mean. Especially if you use multiband plugins on those buses, the phase reslationship with some of the other tracks just gets messy sometimes. But I feel like this is just the compromise for the thickness you get from this process. Without group bus processing a mix can feel hanging loose and I don't like that. I'd rather have some trouble keeping the phase between a bunch of tracks nice.
And finally Parallel-Reverb, which you called Parallel Processing in general. Yeah, I should have generalized it more as well. Sometimes I love putting 4 compressors in parallel or something. And ofc, just as you mentioned, you can just add even more effects to each chain. It's just awesome!
---
Now here are some more things I noticed during the video:
You completely forgot to mention modulation effects, like flanger, phaser, tremolo, vibrato, frequency shifter, pitchshifter, allpass filter etc. I know these are typically used more creatively and because of that sometimes frowned upon by mixing people, but don't underestimate them! A subtle phaser for example can be just the right tool to make a sound breathe while also adding a bit of stereo width. A frequency shifter can be the perfect tool to add some subtle shimmer on a reverb send. A series of allpass filters can be the perfect tool to round off a kick's lowend etc.
Gating sucks. It's way too aggressive, just as you mentioned. But try downwards expanders, if you haven't already. Especially those with lookahead, like pro-mb in singleband mode. You'll see it lets you dial in the dynamics much more delicately and because of that find their place on a lot of drum mics without making the jumpy phase relationships obvious. (But still be careful with rides ofc)
You have put multiband processing in general very low, but I'd like to stress that at least multiband saturation can be super effective. Because there's a thing called "intermodulation" which basically means the more frequencies you saturate at the same time the more they produce weird artefacts that go beyond just adding harmonics and that causes clutter in the spectrum. so splitting a complex signal into lots of bands, while surely adding problematic phase relationships, also makes sure the intermodulation stays low, which i find very valuable sometimes, at least on sounds that don't have to worry a lot about phase
Mid-Side EQ is god-tier for getting width out of a track in a very organic way. Look up Nolly's top-down technique using uneven mid-side EQ. Also for taking low end out of the stereo spectrum. While you can artificially create the effect with different techniques, mid-side is by far one of the easiest.
Nice thanks for sharing; why do you choose to take low-end out of the spectrum?
@@panorama_mastering straight mid/side with Pro-Q 3. Just highpass everything under (100-140 depending on the track) out of the stereo spectrum. Keep your bass and kick mono down the center and give them room to smack. Don't want your kick smothering the low end clarity of your stereo elements (specifically for rock/metal guitars, but applies to synths in pop/EDM as well).
Do you have those reverb presets anywhere?
as an edm producer. I couldn’t agree with you more on frequency splitting
i've agreed with everything so far until you got to sidechaining...i'd move that to C i think. but only in cases where getting the kick & bass really demands something outside of just EQ and levels. i like to use very momentary sidechain ducking that you can hardly notice, just to give the kick a few milliseconds to occupy some more space. if there's a sustainy kick i don't use that kick to inform the compressor. i'll use a stick click sample or something and just remove its output signal. half the time i do this i am actually using the sidechain of a dynamic EQ rather than a compressor and just ducking the subs. something i've learned though is that there's nothing wrong with the kick and the bass occupying the same frequency range if it sounds fine. don't fix what isn't broken. not everything needs its own space where nothing else can live. mixes that are done like that sound lifeless and weird. so i don't go carving a bunch of shit out if it's not necessary. but in some cases with really loud powerful bass heavy mixes, i find a little ducking useful. this works great in all kinds of genres. but that's just my thinking. many engineers don't touch it, and that's fine too!
oh yes, gating, especially on live drums...it's the worst! do big time engineers even do this? it's the advice people give all the time but it sounds like shit. and aside from phase issues, there's nothing worse than cymbal or hi hat brightness coming in when the snare is hit and then immediately disappearing. horrible. i try my best to get drum mixes sounding good with lots of compromise happening. mixing drums is a huuuuge compromise which is why you really need them tracked well. otherwise it's just a shit show.
Haha ! I knew the sidechaining would catch up a few people; but I completely get where you're coming from here!
i think the problem is that most people think they need to use pro-c2's pump mode when using sidechain because it was designed for that, but they should try opto every once in a while, which gives a much more subtle flavour that is more suitable for less aggressive genres
took note to what you mentioned about side info, for me personally when i solo the side info, for me in the most part its very small in the mix, and even with edgyness or harshness, which something like the instruments or vocal already having a hpf on them would of or should of took care of, glad you brought that up, because watching TH-cam ive never seen anyone mention it like that
getting to the end of the video now, you mention the hpf lbf usage, which i think if done properly in the mix makes side info less relavant
I thought clipping should be on the list, but overall great insights and unique approach. Thanks!
Very interesting. I wonder how your mix approach looks like when you don't use bus processing. Could you explain just a little bit how your overall signal flow looks like? Not in detail, just your signal flow paradigm. Cause I did more and more bus processing essentially deriving from the top down mixing paradigm. It's cool because you not get lost too much in details and shape the overall sound more. Of course, there's still processing happening on individual tracks. But how do you do that? Also CPU wise...how do you do all processing then?
Everything outputs to the mix bus and any “group” style processing or heavy handed fx goes on parallel channels feeding the mix bus.
I can control overall group levels with vca faders
Great video! Michael Brauer is my favorite mix engineer and although I mix mostly Pop, R&B and Rap, I still use ABCD busing. I've never had to chase my tail with group busing and in the end, I get more than 3dB of volume after processing. It's a must, for not all, but most of my mixes.
Thanks man! And your mixes sound banging!
@@panorama_mastering -- Thank you! I've learned a lot from you on this channel!
Can you share the reverb settings that you recreated? Would be amazing and a lot of work saved. Maybe you can upload screenshots of it somewhere.
Send me an email nicholas@panoramamastering.com.au I'll send to you directly;
Found your channel a few weeks ago and really digging it, mate.
Btw, where would you put resonance suppressors (Like Soothe2, Dseq3 etc.) and spectral balancers (Smooth Operator, Gullfoss etc.) ??
When I'm mixing; I rarely use these; so... C tier?
S tier is bread and butter for engineers and therefore correct but that besides, flipping your list upside down would be Luca Pretolesi´s top tier list as he uses top down and group mixing. He also uses mid/side and multiband tools. He uses multiband stereo enhancements on groups. 😅 Basically the opposite of your routine/taste. Not saying he´s the holy grail of mixing but it shows that these lists are just based on personal taste and have nothing to do with a great outcome.
You're spot on; what works for one mightn't work for another.
Would you share your Valhalla reverb presets? I love your description of reverse engineering them and I'm curious what they sound like. Thanks!
Check my latest video!
This video and the mastering sister video for me have been some of the best lessons this year... thanks a lot... please would it be possible to get a summary of both as a PDF so we can remind ourselves how to prioritize processes? Thank you
Hey Man; Thanks; really appreciate it;
I think perspective is important; but also context; every process, approach and tool can be S tier given the right set of circumstances; what I hope these videos do is stimulate viewers to consider how and why they do certain things; that's the most important;
What would be the alternatives to side chaining to get similar results/create space for the kick?
Where can I get preset for the Valhalla reverb? Is it for sale?
It's free; I left a link on one of the commenters in this thread to download;
Love your videos bro, much love from Canberra.
Thanks mate! If you're ever in Melbourne hit me up!
Hey mate would you make the Valhalla verb presets available for purchase by any chance?
How about getting it for free? ;)
It's available for download when joining the newsletter !
www.panoramamastering.com.au/subscribe-to-the-newsletter
@@panorama_mastering legend!
@@panorama_mastering Free is way too cheap, your content is super useful and interesting. However, I subscribed to your newsletter but I can't find the download link anywhere for those Valhalla presets, can you help where to look?
You talk about parallel processing a LOT. I'd love a video giving a full run down of your favorite parallel chains and what you have going on in them that makes them a go-to when mixing for you
I had a video like this planned out; and I put it in the archive; should I revisit it?
@@panorama_mastering Yes indeedy :)
LEARN MORE WITH HIM THAN MY WHOLE SEMESTER
You're welcome!
Serial compression, dual mono compression, saturation instead of or in conjunction with eq, compressing reverb, distorted delays, monoing bass, ...
Nice! Are you using different compressors in a chain or the same ones?
@@panorama_mastering both, but mostly different. I think this is very classic. But it took way too long to successfully chain compressors... Getting used to it. It's just clearer.
Probably worth adding are: knee, side chain filtering
Pretty solid list, but Gating can go last for me. Reverb would go above Dynamic EQ as well
Nice! I hear you!
Forgot to say. Love your channel man!
Thanks man!
Great vid as always! :) As many I put sidechaining in the A-tier, so much you can do with it, creatively and to make room, definitely A-tear for me. Indeed electronic music guy here.
Thanks for watching man! Electronic Music people representing in the comments here :P
Is “Frequency Splitting” LAYERING?
Nope, when you have seperate group busses filtered with band passes so you can process each band seperately from one another
@@panorama_mastering copy! Ty so much. I did start to split the stereo bus with 2 aux tracks pre of the stereo bus. All channels get sent to those two tracks, I have dr.midside, 1 in mid and 1 in side mode, then they both go to the stereo buss. But I don’t exactly know the cut off points of this two plugins. I’ll have to check the phase, ty so much
Have you tried auto align 2? Since is ARA2 it is so much faster to use.
Mate! Thanks for flagging this, just checked out Auto Align 2; I have a bunch of mixes on the cards this week with live drums; I'm going to definitely upgrade to Align 2
Agree
Nice thanks for the video ❤
No worries; you're welcome!
Another quality video! 🔥
Thank you!
Clipping on drum bus, EQ, compression
Nice !!
@@panorama_mastering recently tho, I really been dialing in levels and panning and it's been such a massive deal breaker, don't need to process shit as much if the levels are set correctly from jump, and you don't need gimmicky stereo widening tools if the pans are good!
Get the new version of wider,
There's a new version? Awesome! Thanks for the shout!
@@panorama_mastering yup, it now has another knob to make the lower frequencies mono, so you can make things wide whilst making the low end mono