Rob Copeland: Ray Dalio and Bridgewater | Rational Reminder 292
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- In this episode, we welcome Rob Copeland, author of the recently released book The Fund: Ray Dalio, Bridgewater Associates, and the Unraveling of a Wall Street Legend. Rob, a finance reporter for The New York Times, provides a gripping account of the rise and unravelling of Ray Dalio and Bridgewater Associates. Bridgewater Associates, one of the prominent hedge funds on the planet, is synonymous with the legendary investor Ray Dalio. In our conversation, we delve into the intricacies of the company's investment portfolio, shedding light on the details that contribute to its success, and dissect Ray's supposedly revolutionary model of economic cycles. Discover the unconventional principles that shape Bridgewater's culture, from believability to radical transparency, and get a sneak peek into the bizarre Dot Collector app that fuels the company's operations. Gain insights into employee experiences at the company, the secret sauce to Ray’s success, the company’s track record in predicting market crashes, undisclosed aspects of Ray’s success story, and much more! Tune in now!
Timestamps:
0:00:00 Intro
0:07:47 How much of the Bridgewater organization is dedicated to investment management
0:10:36 How Dalio’s model of economic cycles affects Bridgewater’s investment approach
0:14:17 How successful Dalio has been at predicting market crashes
0:16:54 The role have actual investment results played in Bridgewater’s success
0:18:45 Dalio’s Principles
0:23:05 How important the Principles are to Bridgewater’s success
0:38:43 What the dot collector app at Bridgewater does
0:32:18 Based on discussions with current and former employees, Rob describes the experience of working at Bridgewater
0:35:56 The actions Dalio has taken to create his public-facing image
0:42:35 How Dalio explains his own success
0:44:28 What the response to the book from readers has been
0:46:32 What explains Bridgewater's success
0:52:06 What main message Rob hopes people take away from reading his book
Links From Today’s Episode:
Rob Copeland on LinkedIn - / real-rob-copeland
Rob Copeland on X - / realrobcopeland
The New York Times - www.nytimes.com/
The Fund - static.macmillan.com/static/s...
Bridgewater Associates - www.bridgewater.com/
Principles - www.amazon.com/Principles-Lif...
Doom: The Politics of Catastrophe - www.amazon.com/Doom-Politics-...
The Dot Collector - www.principles.com/principles...
Rational Reminder on iTunes - itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/t....
Rational Reminder Website - rationalreminder.ca/
Rational Reminder on Instagram - / rationalreminder
Rational Reminder on X - / rationalremind
Rational Reminder on TH-cam - / channel
Rational Reminder Email - info@rationalreminder.ca
Benjamin Felix - www.pwlcapital.com/author/ben...
Benjamin on X - / benjaminwfelix
Benjamin on LinkedIn - / benjaminwfelix
Cameron Passmore - www.pwlcapital.com/profile/ca...
Cameron on X - / cameronpassmore
Cameron on LinkedIn - / cameronpassmore - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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Loved the book, great interview. A plugged microphone would’ve been really appreciated for Mr Copeland as it is very hard to focus and follow the interesting conversation for 50min with the distorted voice. Thank you for the interview.
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that in year 2024 after covid and all that a professional journalist promoting his own book doesn't have a better mic...
It's especially unfortunate since the actual content is great.
Agreed. I normally would have stopped listening because of this but the content was so interesting I was able to stick it out. Like dude get a $40 Corsair headset with a built-in mic and you'll be as good as gold. Lap top + Air Pods = garbage.
Thank you for doing and releasing the interview. This is literally the Rational Reminder.
I've been watching Ray Dalio's TH-cam videos for the last three months. I'm not sure how long they've been available, but I've noticed an increase in their frequency recently. For some reason the TH-cam algorithm thought I needed see more of them.
This interview was extraordinary, and I'm eager to start reading the book. The culture ray Dalio has cultivated seems almost cult-like, which is fascinating.
It would be intriguing to obtain an audited report of the fund's returns, to get a clearer idea beyond the general notions of it having made significant profits before and now earning less. I'm also curious about the costs involved and what the returns were after all those costs. This detail might already be in the book.
Additionally, I completely agree with the sentiments expressed in the interview regarding the exceptional complexity of life. After watching the Dalio videos, I couldn't help but be astounded by the hubris of the claims being made.
Kudos to everyone involved.
It's hard and sometimes dangerous to point out that an emperor has no clothes. At least on certain subjects.
I really enjoy this episode and respect Rob Copeland writing this book. This episode taught me lots of life lessons.
Loved the book! Didn’t realize you interviewed Rob!!!
Fascinating interview.
The contrast between someone like dalio and someone like warren buffet is astounding. Buffet always downplays his abilities and doesnt try and make himself into an enlightened guru, and he says most people should just buy a vanguard index fund.
Exactly. Buffet isn’t selling a secret sauce or trying to tell you how to be like him. He even discusses his major flubs and losses openly, which is rare in the investment world period.
good video , appreciate it...but your guest's audio was trash , but im guessing thats his mic.....or lack of
This was an excellent topic for you to discuss in your podcast. Thanks for all the work you did making this video.
Would be hilarious if you guys bring Ray Dalio on a future show and grill him! 😂
You guys are saying exactly what I’ve been thinking about RD. For me it’s the bold hubris of his predictions that raised the red flag for me. But, how do I rectify his success, and the fact I know he’s much smarter than me.
I've been calling out Dalio as a crook for many years and yet I get downvoted every time. I'm glad to see someone wrote a book this topic, maybe it will help make people see clearly.
i would have called you out as well altough i like to believe that i am critical and open.
but now, after listening to this?
i am sorry, i was once again ignorant and i didnt even realize it.
This doesn't prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. However, it certainly does raise a large number of red flags.
I have seen Rob's interview with Patrick Boyle so this was not new to me. But right after this video, saw a dalio interview where he was saying Rob was rejected at Bridgewater job interview. If that is true a disclaimer would have been transparent. I do hate workplace nonsense, where top dog talks about latest trendy words like blockchain or AI and force employees to waste time in pointless training outside their primary skill.
Interesting. I'll ask Rob about that.
-Ben
This certainly put some things into perspective. I wasn't expecting it.
Eyeopening!
Can someone tell actually what Bridgewaters annual returns have been . I can’t see this information anywhere?
11.5% for around 30 years I think
It depends on the strategy. The All Weather Strategy has returned just over 7% since 1996. Pure Alpha 18% Vol has returned 9.92% and Pure Alpha 12% Vol has returned 7.49% both since 1992. Returns for the last 15 years have been much lower.
-Ben
I think there’s this “great man” mythos that so many people want to subscribe to, because it’s far more inspiring to see a single individual as a hero than to acknowledge that virtually every “great man” only got to where they did on the backs of countless unnamed supporters and employees. We want to see heroes so we can have hope that one day we might get to be heroes. But although the greatest tech, finance, or sociological ideas of all time may have come from singular visionary minds, they were developed, refined, and put into practice by many, many people.
Even though Ray Dalio has massaged the Bridgewater story, how has the All Weather Portfolio model performed? Has anyone been using it?
Fantastic episode. I read Principles last year. Didn't realize I was drinking the Kool aid!
Great episode but the guest's audio quality was a little sketchy. Blows my mind that in the year 2024 people don't have a headset with a good mic, and actually use something like lap top audio or air pods...
Please, please, PLEASE ensure your interviewees have a decent microphone setup!
Content is great but it's so tedious to listen sometime. :(
Wow, Bridgetwater sounds like a cult than a modern corporation.
Can't wait to see the film, preferably directed by P.T. Anderson.
This reminds me of the "MeowMeowBeenz" episode of community
Ben, I know you did a crypto series already, and it was quite entertaining. However, I feel the guests on that series were mostly against it and approached it from that slant. They did not have great or complete answers to many of the crypto criticisms expressed in the podcast episodes. You did not have on any of the current prominent economists who advocate for a btc allocation and who would have had far more salient responses to certain criticisms in those episodes which left things “unfinished” for lack of a better word. For example, there are studies showing a 5% allocation to bitcoin offered better sharpe and sortino ratios and increased returns over a 15 year period. I am almost 100% positive Lyn Alden or Luke Groman or Jurrien Timmer for example would come on to speak for an episode if asked. I think this would be an excellent episode. I would really like to see you challenged on this topic, and I feel like the prior guests who talked about it had talking points from the earlier days of crypto, which have long since been debunked/evolved and we would love to see something more current. I also understand you probably feel revisiting something that you already have no interest in and maybe feel already visited on prior episodes could seem silly, but we now have top economists at Blackrock for example publishing research papers showing all kinds of interesting things about btc in particular with regards to risk adjusted returns. We also are going on year 15 of its existence, and year over year average returns since its inception have outperformed every asset class in existence… not just as a one of, or for 5 years, but soon to be going on 2 decades. I think that is worth talking about as an academic.
Which prominent economists? I have seen that study, but it’s a bit of a joke. Any asset with that trajectory will look incredible in a portfolio. I do want to finish the crypto series. I agree it’s unfinished.
-Ben
@@rationalreminderI am almost certain Jurrien Timmer, Director of Global Macro at Fidelity, as an example, would love to speak with you. Another who is very very knowledgeable is Lyn Alden, who goes on podcasts all the time and really views things from an academic lens as well as a global, macroeconomic one.
That being said I do agree that anything that starts with a $0 market cap and grows that exponentially over a short period of time is bound to be viewed as “the best asset class in history,” when that is kind of a joke. It is interesting though that btc has, going on 15 years now, averaged something like 144% per year since inception. I wonder how many years will have to go by before it is considered something legitimate to allocate a small chunk to. Like, if after 30 years it has averaged 100%, and is still around and maybe even one of the largest non equity market caps in the world, will we all still be so against it?
@rennaway8728 I would say it’s legitimate now. Once it’s in the ETF wrapper it’s mainstream. That doesn’t mean I’m recommending it, but it’s legitimate to do so. I’ll read Lynn’s book. I am generally skeptical of her analysis based on what I have read. Timmer is a great suggestion.
-Ben
@@rationalreminder thanks for your reply! Another great read is Softwar by Jason Lowery
I think this might come across as one of the most controversial episodes in Rational Reminder history. But I'm glad this was aired.
Dalio really does represent everything Rational Reminder is not. High fees, "we can predict the future" mentality, active investing and toxic work environment. That being said, I think we gotta be careful to have the right disclaimers in front and also allow the other side to have their say. Would Rational Reminder allow someone from Bridgwater to speak their mind and say their side? Would you allow Dalio the chance to respond? If the answer is "of course not!", then that's a bit of a problem. If you have one side of an argument, you need to let the other side have their say. Otherwise it's somewhat of a smear job and not a debate.
Very interesting episode for sure and great job as always.
Would love to have Dalio on, but as Rob says in his book, Rays side of the story is available in his writing and his many interviews. Rob wanted to tell the other side of the story.
-Ben
Abandoned after a few minutes due headache and discomfort caused by a cheap mic.
I have enjoyed Dalio's "Principles". Simple but inspiring. Calming and potentially helpful.
It's just that he didn't stop coming up with new principles, more and more detailed. Meanness and callousness started to show through them, especially in managing people, and I was no longer comfortable with his content.
Would be nice if Rob Copeland didn't try to shame people for borrowing his books from libraries instead of buying them.
Ooof that’s a bad look.
-Ben
Sounds like an amazing environment for someone that truly wants to maximize their effectiveness, and a literal hell for those that aren’t interested.
See how effective Ray is? he warned about us civil war, ww3, debt crushes so they took measures and avoided them! 🤣🤣
Just finished watching the whole video. So basically, he's running a cult with him as the Dalio Lama. And his philosophy doesn't work as advertised...but it does work as advertisement.
Dalio Lama is pure gold.
-Ben
Can’t hear half the things he says…
so what you're saying is Bridgewater is a cult and Ray is a cult leader?!
Most of your content is excellent but this episode seemed very “one-sided” and a bit of a smearing campaign. I was uncomfortable listening to the bashing of an individual to such a degree. Lets hear the other side.
I couldnt have sworn I saw this before, but it was probably just another interview with the same guy
Me too, but the book came out in November 2023, so pretty recently. Maybe the previous interview with him was while he was still writing the book? I can't find the episode, but maybe Dalio's lawyers CnD'ed it.
Actually now that I listen a bit more, I'm pretty sure this is the same episode as the one I watched, or at least an edited version. The story about Ray working as a golf caddy growing up is exactly how I remember it.
edit: but then again I don't remember the discussion about Ray's fake retirement or his succession at all, so what do I know.
@@SeaJay4444 I know right.
We have not released any other version of this episode.
...I might be thinking of Patrick Boyle's interview with Rob Copeland. They cover a lot of the same stuff and Patrick likes to let the interviewee talk just like RR. Apologies!
Sounds a little too much like religion to me.
Didn’t like this episode. Buddy seemed like he had an axe to grind. Not a lot of substance.
Sounds just like the “Communists”
Disappointed. I think you made a bad call doing this episode. There is obviously bias here and this story was unbalanced with no opportunity for a counter opinion. What makes you think this is fair and right? Why smear someone’s reputation without more research and purpose?
For what it's worth, between recording and releasing this episode I spoke with a former Bridgewater employee who left on good terms, had not read Rob's book, and had no reason to deceive me. I asked about Rob's claims and all of them were verified. I shared your concerns prior to that conversation, but less so afterward.
-Ben
Fair enough. It just seemed out of character for your channel. I can understand (for you) disagreement with an investment strategy or philosophy and that discussion but why attack character/intent? Let others (like this author) at that. Will you be judging others too; (eg. Gates, Taleb, Musk, Bezos, Dimon, rich politicians, etc)? That doesn’t seem in line with your purpose and reputation. Anyway, I am a big fan of yours and your way of thinking/being/doing…this just surprised/disappointed me…trust your gut!
I agree this was not a typical episode, and it's not the kind of content I want us to produce ongoing. We did go back and forth on whether to release it. However, Dalio is, in my view, a special case. I have come across many investors who take his advice at face value based on the image that he has created for himself. This advice is often damaging. Rob's book offers a counter perspective that I think is worth hearing. I appreciate the feedback!
-Ben
@marcodepalma1940 this is an investment channel. Dalio is an investor, almost the most famous in the world. He actively promotes a vision of himself as an investment and economic genius. None of those other people fit that bill, they're all managers and entrepreneurs, so it doesn't make sense to talk about them here.
Seriously, why are you defending a lying, self aggrandizing clown like dalio? A man who tries to use lawyers to silence his critics?
You call this one sided, how many people have been bullied and harassed by dalio and his lawyers to allow RAY to be the only one allowed to talk?
@rationalreminder I have to say this is one of my favorite episode in the Rational Reminder podcast (except for the audio quliaty). It offers a different (or even unpopular) perspective and teaches the listners to think rationally even for advices from successful and famous people. I think we should put aside the accuracy/biasness of Rob's writings about Dalio (to me that's important to verify but not the whole point here). There are more to learn from the discussions in this episode. I'd love to see some controversial topics or different/unconventional voices on this channel from-time-to-time, like this one. Keep it up Ben and Cameron. - Nick from Singapore