The Dark Age of Stadium Construction
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- The story of the Dark age of Stadium Construction, an era where many forgettable venues were built...
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Well, it could be said this was the fiscally responsible era of sports stadiums
Exactly. All these fancy stadiums were paid for by taxes on the working and lower middle classes while billionaires threaten to take away the sports teams to sucker another city into paying for their play things.
@Nic Lazzari Stadiums are terrible investments for their cities.
@Nic Lazzari NFL teams play 12 home games/year, max. Football-only stadiums are a terrible investment for anybody. Only politicians are so stupid as to think they are not.
@Nic Lazzari small 20,000 seat stadiums, for basketball and hockey and concerts can be a solid investment for any city, because the venue is going to be used close to 250 nights a year. A football stadium is going to be used far less. With the cost of a football stadium, it is not a worthwhile investment for a city.
I am
The problem with the new stadiums is that the taxpayers pay exorbitant amounts of money for billionaire owners to take in the profits while spending next to nothing.
Which is dumb. If I had 10 Billion why not fund half of the stadium. The public and fans appreciate it and will remember you in a positive light. Take the DeWitts in St Louis for example. They’re diehard fans and willing to fork over some money. Not douchenuggets
@Nic Lazzari they’re terrible investments. for a football stadium, it may be used 50 times a year for various games, concerts, etc at most. even less for outdoor stadiums. in the end, they lose a lot of money. ask cincinnati how their stadium went
@Nic Lazzari Stadiums are on the list of horrible investments for municipalities. The only area in which they succeed in is ego.
Roger that!
@Nic Lazzari Thst does not make my point mute. The money invested in building that could have generated much more money and quality of life if spent differently.
Love the first shot of where I have gone my entire life: The South Philly sports complex. Pretty neat how ALL of their pro sports stadiums are across the street from each other. All walking, no trains.
I love that. Stadiums in the downtown area, no super long parking lots
As a native of the Philadelphia area myself. I would say that's pretty smart what our city did.
I agree. My coolest experience was when the Phillies won the World Series in '08, they did a parade around the inside of Lincoln Financial Field and then went right across the street to do the official ceremony inside CBP. My older brother, who worked for the Phillies, got us inside both venues.
I know there are a few places in Philly that would have been perfect for a ballpark but nothing is better than the current setup of the sports complex. Easily accessible through public transportation, walking if you decide to park a bit away from the complex, and parking down there at the complex is pretty good too.
@@josiahblodget8343 I would have rather seen the baseball stadium in the area near Ritfenhoye Square, as that is the heart of Phil,y. South Philly is fine for car access but not that great for before and after entertainment/eating. The Citizen's Bank Park is fine, but not as nice as PNC, Camden Yards. Progressive Field and others with a real neighborhood feel. It IS better than the character less Vet with its plastic grass. I have taken the train from Market & Broad a few times to both parks, though the underground station was pretty nasty. I like that a visitor can go via train and not a damn car.
After this though was the end of sports stadiums being affordable for lower and middle class to attend more games.
I would rather have a ugly stadium, then a super fancy one that feels very corporate and catered to rich.
$10 dollar beers ridiculous.
Good point.
The beers are much closer to $30 each these days. Much easier to watch it on a TV somewhere.
Not a Georgia resident but because of the Superstation attended many Braves games during the 80's. Paid six dollars a ticket for an upper deck seat. The bottom line is that it was family affordable and reasonable for getting a major league experience.
I went to a USC game in the Coliseum. I was perfectly content. I doubt I’d go to the new stadium.
@@CartersvilleFan In the stadiums....
I long for the dark ages when stadium designs were based on budget rather that the golden age of public subsidy.
Good point, although one thing to bear in mind is cost relative to longevity. These concrete caverns usually only lasted about 25-30 years. *Hopefully,* these newer ones will last for a really long time. Still don’t know if it’ll make up for it tho since these new ones cost absolutely outrageous amounts over a billion dollars.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 Stadiums last as long as their tenants want to keep them. Note the Red Sox owners in the 1990s were crying about the decaying state of Fenway Park, then the new ownership group comes in and does renovations and everything's great. When owners want a new stadium they neglect their current one or just say it's old and decrepit and public officials agree. I have no doubt if the public money hadn't entered the equation plenty of concrete donuts would still exist.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 The Atlanta Braves and Texas Rangers have already replaced ballparks that were opened in the 90s
@@MarshallDog it doesn't get rid of the fact that those concrete donuts are ugly. But I agree, these new stadiums aren't that much unique and are corporate behemoths.
@@Montfortracing they're really not that unique looking to me and it's almost certainly due to safety and building regulation. most place just have like one or two memorable quarks to them to make it their thing
I'm sure it might just be me being a kid and nostalgia but I'm usually pretty good about conrraling that, but I never remember finding old stadiums ugly or it taking away from anything. The biggest problem with these place is they look terrible from the sky, which is a fucking dreadful way to judge a place because no one lives in the sky
Damn those municipalities with their careful planning, and multiuse functions and their fiscal responsibility.
You should do a video on Hinchliffe Stadium located in Paterson, New Jersey. It was built in 1932. It is one of only a handful of stadiums surviving nationally that once played host to significant Negro league baseball during America's Jim Crow era. The stadium was designated a National Historic Landmark in March 2013 and a Paterson Historic Landmark[5] in May 2013.
It was SHIBE Park in Philly, Not "Sheeb" Park.
And after the Athletics left for Kansas City (and later Oakland), it became Connie Mack Stadium.
Also not “Crowsley” Field .... 🤦🏻♂️
@@gregmanco9060 The guy who put this together is clearly lazy. Gets the pronunciation of two of the stadiums wrong. Typical of today’s society where mediocre will do
Maybe not lazy, just not familiar. These places have not existed since I was a kid. I know the pronunciations because I’m a huge baseball fan and fan of its history. This guy is likely at least 30 years removed from these places, if not more. When you put something like this together it’s a good idea to run the script and those pronunciations by actual baseball fans.
When I first read about it, I thought it was "Sheeby" not "Shyb"
While this might not be something to brag about, few people are ever able to pin down which specific stadium started the "cookie-cutter" style which became prominent in the 1970's. Let me enlighten you----it was District of Columbia Stadium----later renamed Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Stadium in 1961. I think the reason this stadium doesn't get the blame/credit it deserves because it stopped being a multi-purpose stadium in 1972 after the Washington Senators left for Arlington, Texas. So when other stadia of the same type were built in other cities in the 70's, people didn't think of RFK as a baseball stadium anymore.
Did not know that, Shea Stadium was also built in 1961 as a multi-use stadium.
Atlanta was pretty early, too, as the Braves left Milwaukee for GA to start the 1966 season. The neighborhood around RFK was not good and both Senators teams STUNK, and drew poorly. However, not too long after leaving DC in 1961, the now Minnesota Twins got very good and made the WS in 1965 - a rarity for any Washington team! The Nationals Park is in a better area with a nicer park, and now they have a WS title to their name. I think Cinci, Pitt and Veterans in Philly all opened within a year or two of each other. Comiskey blew it, by opening a year too early, and I was not impressed, but they have changed to the green color scheme. Not bad for a day game, but a rough South side location for night games - though the exploding scoreboard shows up better at night. I will take Wrigley ANY day!
@@jdhjimbo A lot of hindsight is 20/20 with stadium architecture and design, and overall sentiment.
@@JKillackey62183 That is true, but the new Comiskey missed the boat badly, as Camden Yards opened in 1992, and is amongst the top 3 of the new ballparks (PNC & Oracle in SF are my 2 faves, with Camden right behind.
I think you mean in 1969 when it was renamed after the slain senator.
I'm glad you mentioned the Pontiac Silverdome. What a dump. Big, ugly, mushroom looking thing out in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing but that structure around and when you parked your car in the winter you had to walk through a wind-blown landscape. I've never been to Siberia but every time I made that walk I thought of the place. It was lousy for football and concerts. It was poetic justice that when they broadcasted it's demolition live, trying to make a big deal out of it, the charge failed to go off. Summed up the stadium and the team that called it home, the Lions, quite nicely.
You forgot to mention that everyone (up to 80k people?) had to funnel through four REVOLVING DOOR exits at the end of an event. Or course, everyone was completely courteous and this was done in a very organized fashion, no pushing and shoving at all.
And, Ponticrack.
@@jasonfullerton7763 Yeah, I remember those doors. It was like getting sucked through a wind tunnel!
I went to a Pistons game there once. The lights shined so brightly and reflected onto the floor that whenever a player went into the corner, they disappeared. It was impossible to see a game there from the upper deck.
@@greglamm5986 I remember going to a few Pistons games out there. You are correct, it sucked for basketball as well. Before they drafted Isiah Thomas they were giving away tickets and still couldn't get more than a couple thousand people out there.
Toronto's skydome was the breakthrough with the first retractable roof and hotel and restaurant in it.
AND, a train station. I've been there.
Now it’s one of the worst stadiums in MLB and needs to be replaced. Hopefully they can build a new one in the same location
@@1999bill1999 The skydome in comparison to the Oakland coliseum and Tropicana field, is much nicer and the skydome being the first retractable roof stadium in Canada and being built in 1989 of course has its problems.
They’re fixing those problems right as we speak they’re renovating the whole thing and they’re adding more of a social space
I would add that the first shift from the multi-sport stadiums came in the early 1970s in Kansas City/Jackson County. The original idea there was to build a single, circular domed stadium for both baseball and football. Luckily discussions arrived at the fact that each sport was different and needed a single stadium. The Jackson County Sports Authority decided to build what are now Kauffman and Arrowhead Stadiums. Through renovations they have kept up with the times. I do agree with the comment that these are examples of the public being hit with taxes and fees to provide venues for private companies.
Kaufmann looks like a timeless classic. Like Dodger Stadium, you can just picture Don Draper taking in a game here.
I'm glad at least Chicago's Wrigley Field retained some of its antique charm in the era of "corporate stadiums"
Although, it could be argued that Wrigley is the oldest corporately named stadium
@@jamesmorris2578 Fenway Park is arguably also corporately named...Fenway Park was originally named not because of the Fenway neighborhood, but because of Fenway Realty Group.
@@JKillackey62183 I was not aware of that. Thank you for enlightening me
The multi purpose circular stadiums, while having the disadvantage of not being optimized like baseball only/football only venues , were still aesthetically pleasing.
For me the game on the field/court has always been the star of the show. Amenities have never been that important for me as a fan and the idea of attending a sporting event only to watch it from behind glass in a living room setting in a luxury box has NEVER held any appeal to me. I want to be in the crowd and the obsession with leaving early to beat traffic is another head scratcher to me. I mean, you went to an event with thousands of people. You know traffic is part of it, I mean, don’t go if the traffic is THAT big a deal. Why spend $100’s of dollars on an event only to leave early to beat traffic? I don’t get it.
Exactly. Let me get a dog or some nachos, popcorn, and a couple of beers without losing a half-inning each time standing in line, decent sightlines, and I'm good.
I've been to most of the MLB stadiums (I used to have a job where I traveled a lot) I think my favorite of the ones I've visited is Kaufman, although I loved Wrigley as well.
Agreed! And if some people want all that fancy stuff, there’s plenty of suites for them, but let them pay for it!
I just want a few cheap seats, some dogs and snacks and beers without taking out a loan!
The problem is casuals with money run the show with sports because they're far more numerous. You really have to view stadiums first as a social event first and sports game second. It sucks but that's just how the nature of the beast
One thing I get tired of hearing about regarding new stadiums, is how they want to "enhance the fan experience". The only fan experience I need is to see a game. I don't give a damn about bars, suites, clubs and whatever else they throw at you. I'm there to watch a game, that's all.
That's because you're a fan. All that fancy crap is for rich people to spend money and don't even look at the game
That rant you posted is understandable.
I agree with you. Frankly I get distracted by the in between innings nonsense, or commercial breaks in NFL games, or period breaks for NHL and NBA. You can hardly hear the crowd noise over the often obnoxious promo on the massive video boards and speaker systems.
Going to a game now is a far cry from going to a game 35 or more years ago, but it’s about the money, we love our Capitalism, and the price for that is the emphasis on BIGGER money; so all of the things you and likely a great many others, including me are tired of hearing about is here to stay. Forever.
What you can do is what you are doing, which is to watch a game and immerse yourself in the experience of the actual game, and nothing else.
@@dirtylemon3379
Excellent point, and you’re right, but to be fair the “regular” people at ballgames are often looking down into their phones.
It’s a thing. A big thing.
It’s never going to go away.
I see it at Racing, NFL, NBA and NHL venues all of the time. Regular paying customers sitting in regular seats, paying less attention to the game, and often times to the person on their left or right, in favor of a text or selfie that they want to post on FaceBook immediately. When stadiums began to provide WiFi, that killed the idea of an organic experience to sports as we know it.
We are a very distracted population in love and devotion to our phones rich and poor.
@@moonytheloony6516 That's a sign of the times we live in, in general, not just at live spectator sports...
Technology has made attention spans much shorter and has forever changed in-person social interaction.
Sporting events have become social events. Most people go to socialize. Lots of people at the games don’t even know what is going on in the game.
Cookie cutters, astro turf, domed... my kinda stadiums.
What did you like about them?
I agree. They never pretended to be "organic" like the ones of the last 30 years. Rainouts were less common. They created a different game from the grass bandboxes and teams had to learn how to play to both types of stadiums, making it fun, Difference between Wrigley and 1984 Busch Stadium was like night and day so teams had to adjust. Also more stolen bases in those days,. Key is they brought variety.
Well unfortunately these "amenity" based stadiums come with some huge drawbacks. One is prices for games. The lower and middle class people used to be able to afford a game every now and then. Now it's terribly hard for these people to enjoy a game in person. I myself have only managed to afford one professional game in the last 4 years. I went to an Atlanta United MLS game in 2017 during their inaugural season. That leads me to the other drawback...
These more expensive venues draw in people that are practically at these games just to socialize and enjoy all the "amenities." So many of these people aren't huge fans of the teams and spend more time chatting and blocking other people's views so they can take selfies with their friends. When I was at that Atlanta United game so many girls stood right in the entry way next to the section I was in with their backs to the action just for a picture and I couldn't see half the game. Some sorta drunk guy kept yelling at these girls, "Everyone knows you're beautiful already! We're trying to watch the game! Get the h&%@ out of the way!" Wasn't exactly an ideal experience for anyone who actually wanted to pay attention to the game. lol.
Was that drunk guy you?
Can you do Old Yankee stadium, Old Comiskey Park and the Astrodome.
Polo grounds!
Old Yankee Stadium had tons of history, but the location sucks! You park in that area under the Deegan, with boatloads of broken glass and homeless. If you are staying in Manhattan, I guess there are subway connections. Mr friend from LI had his 4 tires stripped at one game in the Bronx back in the 1970s. I also had some guys pour a beer on me because I clapped for a Ryan Klesko HR when my Braves played there the 1st season of interleague play (1997). Not a fan of either NY park, though have not been in the new versions. Shea was a noisy toilet!!
Here’s a good mini documentary on the rise and fall of the Astrodome in Houston. th-cam.com/video/mU4lZBOpy90/w-d-xo.html
I went to many baseball games at Forbes Field. It had a lot of really good things about it. But it also had a lot of really bad things too. One thing I really liked was that Schenley Park was out beyond the left field wall with the giant scoreboard. I walked many times out there in the park. The field was amazing in size in left center and center field, so big, in fact, they parked the batting cage inside the playing field. The green grass went forever. The Clemente wall was in right field with that odd sculpturing. So balls would bounce in crazy ways. But thing is, many of the fans had really bad seats. The restrooms were dirty. When Three Rivers came to be, the fan experience was much better. But the field itself was lacking. It had hard synthetic turf, and the field was symmetrical without character. Things turned around completely from Forbes. The best solution was to completely refurbish Forbes Field, but nobody wanted to hear it.
HOT TAEK: synthetic turf, while butt ugly, was a superior baseball playing surface. It brought speed into the game and crazy exciting defensive plays. IMO baseball's funnest era was the 70-early80s. The only thing grass has going for it is that it looks a lot better.
TH-cam viewer 1: "Hmm... WTF is Sheeb Park??"
TH-cam viewer 2: "Dunno, a place where sheeb graze?"
TH-cam viewer 3: "Well, maybe he means Shibe Park. He must have read about it at the leebrary."
Stopped watched after he said this. If you dont know the names of the old places and how to say them, you're not qualified to speak on what you call the "dark ages" of stadiums, or just what everyone else calls the cookie cutter era
Is it fair to say the last decent multi purpose use stadium was Qualcomm in SD
Now we spend BILLIONS of public funds on dedicated stadiums, trashing the environment and overpriced admissions. It used to cost $5 for a seat in Shea Stadium. Now it’s $50 minimum and $30 for a hot dog. Can’t afford to go to a game anymore. Not sure which is better.
Are you shitting me? $30 for a hot dog?
Who's this "we"? I'm in California, where teams can either build their new stadium themselves or leave.
I would think back in the day when football wasn’t as profitable, it would not make sense to have a football specific stadium for a few exhibitions 8 regular season and hopefully a few playoff games. Now that football has crazy tv revenues and such, they can afford to build them.
@rulinghabs that was probably part of the logic that went in to the design and concept of dual use stadiums...Made a lot of sense at the time.
MLB Baseball was King back then, NFL Football back then was nowhere near the lucrative cash cow that it is today.
@@JKillackey62183 I’d say around late 1960s or 1970s that football surpassed baseball. But it was still neck and neck for a while. As baseball pace became slower and slower the ratings have dropped.
You should do a review of Arrowhead Stadium and Kauffman Stadium since they're unique for being built as separate structures during this era!
In my nearly 60 years of life on Earth, I got to hand it to whoever did the KC stadiums in the 70's - because it's the one and only time I've ever seen anyone accurately predict the future!
I'll say this much about the multipurpose era. A lot of great moments in both baseball and football took place in those venues. Hank Aaron's 715th. The Immaculate Reception. Pete Rose breaking Ty Cobb's record. Mark McGwire hitting #62. The Freezer Bowl. Edgar Martinez's series clinching double.
That, and while there may not have been as many home runs, the longer fences meant the ball was in play more.
dual use wasn't great for baseball. However they were better for football. You rarely had a problem w/ sight lines at an NFL game in those stadiums. The atmosphere at RFK, 3 Rivers, Riverfront, Veterans, Municipal, the Astrodome etc were so much better in the late 70-80s that what they are today. Even in Seattle, which has one of the "good" new stadiums never had the energy of the Kingdome and the seahawks were usually mediocre at best back then. Go to an NFL game today and it feels so corporate and sterile in these tax payer funded luxury boxes. And its not "well NFL crowds have changed" its literally the stadium. Even college football conference championship games which are staged in NFL stadiums are freaking lifeless.
Good points. Agree with the "sterile" feeling. Something is missing in the new football stadiums.
All true, butus Reds fans will never complain about being able to watch The Big Red Machine dominate the 70's at Riverfront Stadium.
I know what you mean. I have a picture on the wall above my desk of old Three Rivers Stadium where the Steelers won their first four Super Bowls. It will always have a place in my heart.
It was a cereal bowl with mold on the bottom - but it was ours and I still miss it
Sheeb Park? Crowslee Field???
CRAW-slee and SHYbuh. Or if you're really lazy about the latter, Connie Mack Stadium.
What's the answer to 99 out of 100 questions? Money
Say what you want about those old cookie-cutter stadiums. But come playoff time, they would rock! Something that doesn’t compare with the new parks.
You have a good point but here’s a few reasons why they “rocked” a bit more than today’s stadiums.
Firstly, they were a lot bigger for things like baseball, usually between 50-55,000 capacity.
Today I think only Dodger Stadium has the capacity for that size of crowd. The Pirates, Phillies and Reds opted for smaller stadiums.
Secondly: The designs changed. Round-ish stadiums enclosed with a wraparound upper deck will bounce more noise, becoming louder and if it has a roof on it like the Metrodome in Minneapolis, you can set decibel records.
Thirdly : The Apple & Orange effect.
The era’s are very different. The cookie cutters existed before smartphones and the internet.
What does that mean? You have a crowd that’s not completely engaged with the game or each other…
Stadiums now provide WiFi for….the device in your hand or pocket to access the internet while a game is going on.
Back in the log cabin days of the early ‘90’s and the decades before, people went to a game to watch a game. No playgrounds or interactive stuff for the kiddies.
People actually spoke to each other. People spoke to people they didn’t even know, it was a socially engaged event that almost demanded everyone’s willing participation.
Sit in the stands today and more heads are bowed than a church ceremony…why is that?
They’re looking at their phones…
In closing the older stadiums provided some design advantages and society was encouraged to be social with the fans, with the game. It’s all we had to do back then.
@@moonytheloony6516 Absolutely agree on all your points.
I remember a Patriots road playoff game in 1998 against the Steelers @ Three Rivers Stadium. I was watching the game on TV...
The round architecture and the crowd noise from the roaring fans
was so loud the Patriots offensive
line couldn't hear Drew Bledsoe's audibles.
Modern football venues never set quite as loud because of the way the seats and stands are arranged...that and the fact technology makes fans at the game more distracted by gizmos, smart phones, devices, etc.
@Danny Cass I've noticed that too. The more modern
football-only and baseball-only stadiums...the crowd noise is nowhere near as loud and rocking as the old cookie cutter dual use stadiums...even if it's a big postseason/playoff game.
The circular design of those venues really echoed and amplified crowd noise.
@@JKillackey62183
The old stadiums may have held the crowd noise in a bit better but I’m not an engineer so I can’t speak on that with any certainty.
What I can say is the cookie cutter stadiums weren’t filled with fans who were armed with smartphones connected to the cookie cutter stadium’s WiFi.
Yesterday’s fans came to the stadium to watch a game, that was all there was to do back then. Eyes were generally focused on the field or conversing directly to one another. Much more organic experience. Fans were generally more engaged.
Today’s fans don’t do that. They’re attention is on their smart devices, so what we have now is better-designed stadiums that are built more for entertainment instead of serving a single purpose. There are too many distractions today.
@@moonytheloony6516 well aren't you an old timer, wishing for older days. None of what you said are good reasons for cookie cutter stadiums. It's almost as if you've forgotten about stadiums like Lambeau, Wrigley, Big House, Old Trafford, Camp Nou, Westfalenstadion, and all the unique stadiums built during the cookie cutter areas.
Stadiums are supposed to be unique. You can build a stadium that is unique that can trap noise. Look at Century Link Field in Seattle. We don't need cookie cutter stadiums. And no future fans want them, except for grumpy old timers. I do agree with you about fans these days with their cell phones, they're incredibly distracted.
As much as a lot of people hated it, I really enjoyed old Bush Stadium, it has a charm about it that made it fun to go to baseball games there.
It's pronounced Sh"eye"be park... not sheeeb park... ugh...
Yes, hard to consider what the person is saying when pronounced 2 stadiums wrong?
Crow-zlee Field 😞
Curious how any English language speaker could possibly mispronounce Shibe and Crosley. There are a lot of complicated names in the world, for sure. Neither of those is anywhere near that list.
Us Philly people just call Shibe Park by its more familiar name: Connie Mack Stadium.
It’s funny how he was talking about new comisky park while I was driving next to it
I enjoy your videos, my friend. Good work, good delivery, and intelligent opinion. I enjoy sports and architecture, and find your site enjoyable. Keep up the good work!!!! And, in my opinion, Camden Yards is and will always be a classic. Let's hope the Orioles get better so we may all get to enjoy this stadium.
Look man I’ve been to three rivers, Heinz field and pnc park over a hundred times in total.
While PNC destroys three rivers for baseball. Heinz Field sucks compared to Three Rivers. No crowd noise and it’s so windy and cold. The seats aren’t too different because seating at football is never that good unless you’re at the 50
True but football stadiums don't really need the charm, odd dimensions and unique quirks and features baseball stadiums do
I went to my first baseball game at Three Rivers. I agree, it was terrible for baseball but I had a lot of good memories growing up there.
I think the Pontiac Silverdale was a fantastic stadium but nowadays every sports game costs a fortune bc every stadium has to be earth shattering
Shy-be Park, Cr-oz-lee Field
Was here to post this exact same thing 😂
Thank you.
My brother and I grew up in the 70's and 80's. I grew up confused as to why the NL was called the senior circuit. All the NL stadiums I saw on the Game of the Week (Riverfront, Three Rivers, Busch, Olympic, Veterans) were so new and the turf and cut outs for the bases looked so cool and so new. Meanwhile the AL, for the most part, had old, outdated, baseball only stadiums. Nothing wrong with the stadiums of this era. Made me and NL fan.
The Truman Sports Complex in Kansas City has two of the lone remaining stadiums from this era...and that's because they were labors of love and not cookie-cutters.
Both were/are truly decades ahead of their times.
It helps that one was built for each sport instead of a single multipurpose stadium.
They also have undergone extensive renovations to keep to date. Goodbye AstroTurf! Worse invention ever
@@Jleed989 Astroturf is one of the reasons the 1970's/1980's teams were built to be so quick.
Ironic that you showed Hard Rock Stadium near the end, as that stadium-- in its incarnation as Joe Robbie Stadium-- was an example of the "Dark Age".
@Jeff Billman I think by "Dark Age" he specifically means the circular football + baseball venues built in early 70's like The Vet, Riverfront, and Three Rivers stadiums.
Although...R.F.K Stadium in Washington D.C was the first back in 1961, but R.F.K doesn't get reviled and loathed like those other 3 stadiums do for some reason.
And now, the stadiums are so empty, they aren't even really needed. The new trend is actually to shrink the size of them so there arent as many empty seats, or for existing stadiums, removing or covering the empty seats so they aren't as visible on TV.
I still love how you cram so much information into 5 minutes.
The best of the bad bunch was Busch Memorial Stadium. The neat-looking arches on the roof were reminiscent of the nearby Gateway Arch. And for some reason, Busch seemed to fit the character of the baseball Cardinals pretty well. Three Rivers, Atlanta, and Riverfront were dogs thru and thru. Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia was somewhere in between Busch and the three I mentioned.
Oh they had so much success
And they outlaw so many other people
Great points as always, but I do have one factor that doesn't seem to get mentioned.
I have lived in cities with great tailgating culture. KC is the one where I have gone to the most games. It was phenomenal!
Living for a bit in Minnesota and other places with downtown stadium locations, the culture is always lesser.
There's no tailgating, people aren't getting together the same way, it is sad.
Buffalo, KC, and other stadiums with the ocean of parking allow community.
The Metrodome just didn't.
Enhanced Fan experience was not a term used back then .
The most important fan experience is driven by what happens on the field
Sight lines , acoustics, seats ,cover and liquid refreshment all important ,
Complicated Gastronomy not so much
Dark age ! Hmmn
Of their time I would say , combination of $$ / stadium ownership and philosophy
Was not just the US who went down the municipal stadium path , German stadiums of that era had running tracks around them multi-use was the philosophy, and concrete was king
The brits and Aussie had soccer , rugby , Aussie rules and cricket but for the most part as the clubs owned their own stadiums they never went down the municipal route and kept their sports in separate venues
Americas throwaway culture extends even to its stadiums.
0:41 but hey, you can’t deny the outside of the Kingdome was beautiful. Well, the scenery was beautiful. The Kingdome looked like a concrete pimple.
It was even worse on the inside.
You mispronounced Crosley and Shibe parks.
Hey I sense a bit of a cub fan in you !the way you pick on the White Sox park in a few of videos !
The originally named Oakland Alameda County Stadium is still in use. A relic from the past where George Blanda (16) threw passes to Warren Wells (81), and Campy Campaneris and Sal Bando played on the A’s three-peat World Series. Decrepit, falling apart, and obsolete, Oakland has not been able to build a new venue since.
Oakland was actually an excellent place to watch baseball before Al Davis destroyed it.
There was nothing wrong with those stadiums .they were alot better than these bloated monstrosities you see today. Just because a stadium costs billions doesn't make it better.
Only attended games at two of this type - Fulton County and Busch. Enjoyed every game at both. Beautiful sight lines from the upper deck. Simple to find your seat and I didn't feel I mistakenly went to some downtown entertainment complex. Agree with your assessment.
It certainly doesn't guarantee a better on-field experience!
Cookie Cutters served a purpose. They were utilitarian. Cheaper for the cities to build instead of two separate stadiums for baseball and football, usually larger than the stadiums they replaced, the teams actually PAID RENT so the cities didn't get tied into a debt trap, and the most modern amenities of that time.
This is a cultural problem. For some reason, starting in the '90s, there has been this unhealthy obsession with the past. In music, architecture, even politics to some extent. This may explain why we haven't been to the moon in nearly 50 years and don't currently have a commercial supersonic passenger plane.
in defense of the cookie cutter erai will say that yes the stadiums looked boring however we didnt care what the stadium looked like we just wanted to see the game.. in many ways it was a better game day experience because thats all you could do was watch the game
It’s really that simple
The key fan experience is what happens on the field
Everything else is bells and whistles
Shibe rhymes with Tribe. Crosley sounds like “Crawsley”. Good piece otherwise.
As a die hard White Sox fan who’s probably attended 100+ games at US Cellular/Guaranteed Rate Field Ive always hated the stadium and just about everything about it. It’s forever pained me inside that we let go of our jewel box park and have this piece of shit instead especially when the Cubs still have Wrigley up north. I hope for something new in the next 20 years
One idea - do a thorough report on the evolution, design and architecture that, in my opinion, make Arrowhead and Kaufman Field in Kansas City enduring and beautiful still to this day. Thank you.
And yet in Montreal they still have the Big O (Owe) big reason they lost the Expos. A nice intimate stadium closer to downtown (as well as the West Island) would have done a lot in keeping them around. They would have been the favourites to win it all in 94 if not for that strike.
Had the strike never happened, there will be no Bulls 2nd 3-peat and the Shaq-Kobe 3-peat as well.
The Expos left Montreal because of horifficly low attendance. People didn't want them anymore.
@@aaronwilliams6989 low attendance could have been mitigated with a stadium downtown. I worked for the Allouettes when the came back in the 90’s. Corporate money and advertising generates huge revenue and are tied together. I was in sales and marketing. No one wanted to spend on or go to games in the east end. The best thing about Habs games are that you could go down before the games and have dinner downtown or stay at work and just go to the game. After the game you could just go out and enjoy the rest of your night downtown. Also great for corporate events. The ALS were going no where until the Big Owe issues and they had to go to McGill stadium. Smaller yes but all of a sudden you couldn’t get a ticket. Also baseball is a bit more popular with Anglo Quebecers. They mostly resides in the west. It was too far away from this crowd and there is no Metro in their areas.
One last thing. I went to a ton of games during their hot streak. I was lucky. A buddy of mine had partial season tickets. That place was dank and humid. Terrible atmosphere.
@@rulinghabs I trust what you say. You know, having had all that experience.
Thanks for filling me in on that. Pretty interesting.
Whatever happened to Parc Jarry?
The best stadium built in the stadium dark age was the Superdome.
...which is STILL in use!
@@jsivco3sivco785 Granted, it went through a massive renovation after Hurricane Katrina. Even though it was considered an "ugly" or "dated" stadium prior to that hurricane and had a hole ripped through the roof, its design actually saved the building itself from being severely damaged. Most of the damage to the stadium occurred after the hurricane passed and there was no electricity or running water for days. The cookie cutter stadiums were built to save money for cities and have one place for fans to attend games and other entertainment events such as rock concerts, tractor pulls, etc., all of which maximized efficiency. This was quite common with most businesses at that time with assembly line production in factories, fast food restaurants, hotels, etc. However, by the end of the 1970's the utility of these stadiums began to wear off and actually discouraged many fans from attending these venues. The economic shocks of inflation and stagflation in the 1970's followed by the severe economic recession which followed in the early 1980's plus a huge rise in crime didn't help attendance.
arrowhead honestly
Kauffman and Arrowhead would have something to say about that.
That one stuck around
Such a shame that so many classic ballparks were torn down and replaced by these these soulless behemoths
I don't know if Shea Stadium was considered a cookie-cutter stadium, because it was kind of different, being open at one end. I must have gone to a couple of hundred games at Shea, mostly baseball, but some football, and thinking back, it was like it never seemed new. First game I went was a Met game in 1968, when it was only 4 years old (and I was only 7) and it already seemed like a dirty old dump. By 1974, when it was only 10 years old, it was a certified dirty old dump. It looked as old as Yankee Stadium, which at that time was 50 years old, and even as a little kid I liked Yankee Stadium (pre-1973 reconstruction of course) because it always seemed so much cooler and the seats and views were so much better. Now Yankee & Shea Stadium are both gone and I've never been to either of the new parks.
And then you had Kauffman Stadium in the 70’s
Wellll...yesss... but there was one good thing about that era... and that was that the average person could afford to go. Not so much nowadays. The closest many fans get to seeing their beautiful new stadium is to see it on TV....
If you were just interested in watching a game and didn't need over the top amenities, it was no big deal. The current stadiums are aesthetically nicer like CitiField, but I also love Shea Stadium. It's a different breed of fan now.
You should do a collaboration video with all sports history
You didn't note the Oakland Coliseum is still standing. And, for at least for the next few years, will still be used by the Athletics.
The raiders ruined the Oakland coliseum
@@luisrosales9349 not really. It would look like every other stadium in mlb
@@westhoodqualzini7884 Must respectfully disagree. Oakland was a very pleasant place to watch baseball before Al Davis ruined it.
You're forgetting there were no lucrative TV or cable contracts in the 60s, 70s & 80s. Gate receipts were everything for clubs. Cookie cutters gave the most seats at the lowest cost. The revenue they generated allowed clubs to grow and compete instead of the damn Yankees winning every year. Though no upper deck has ever been worth it because they're set back so far from and high above the field of play at least the circular stadiums gave everyone a full view. They also made the outfield symmetrical. For some strange reason baseball is the only stadium sport where play is allowed on a non-standard field of play beyond infield and foul lines. Parks used to be small and quirky because they had to fit inside city streets. Those limitations disappeared long ago. Deliberately making them "quirky" is as ridiculous as putt-putt golf. Why not add more obstructions for outfielders to negotiate?
You're also forgetting that when the cookie cutters first went up they were beautiful. Monumental. They're out of style but in a few decades these retro parks will be too.
Finally, as Bob Costas said, no matter where it's played baseball is a beautiful game.
@longlakeshore You make some really great points!
Furthermore, baseball fans today forget how "State Of The Art" cookie cutter stadiums were at the time, they were modern marvels.
In the late 60's and early 70's both Major League Baseball and the National Football League were way less corporate, and the NFL certainly wasn't the lucrative juggernaut that it is in 2021 so...
Luxury Boxes and Corporate Seat weren't yet a "thing".
Cookie Cutter stadiums kept a lot of teams from having to play home games 30 miles away in the suburbs, they also probably kept some of these teams from permanently relocating as well.
It's so ironic, and a lot of people don't see is that modern retro baseball ballparks and modern football only stadiums have a similar "sameness" to the architecture that cookie cutter stadiums got criticized for.
The architecture of the retro baseball stadiums is strangely similar.
Camden Yards if you removed the B & O Warehouse would look pretty similar to Citizens Bank Park, or the SF Giants venue without the outer waterpark + kayak area.
And with modern Football stadiums...If you removed the Lighthouse from Gillette Stadium, it would pretty much look exactly like Lincon Financial Field, or the Seahawks stadium.
There is a uniform sameness to a lot of the modern football and baseball venues too....Its just fashionable nowadays to deride and disavow cookie cutter stadiums.
Well done !
The era of new ballparks was presaged by the opening of Buffalo's Pilot Field; now Sahlen Field; in 1988. The Orioles hired HOK to build Camden Yards. And Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, was renovated from the old Citrus Bowl.
I was referring to the major league level when referring to camden. Jacksonville only had one section of upper deck seating which was much newer to begin with kept from the old gator bowl it was basically 85% new with the part the was kept only being a few years older
HOK unfortunately also designed "New Comiskey Park," which opened in 1991...a step backwards. It's my understanding HOK gave the White Sox a choice of going modern or classic/retro, and the White Sox chose poorly. One year later, Oriole Park at Camden Yards opened, and everyone wanted their new stadiums to be built in that style.
@@jolietpinball7439 You can say this for New Comiskey: It was only the second ballpark since Dodger Stadium to be built expressly for baseball (Royals/Kaufman being the other).
Citrus Bowl is in Orlando...this was the Gator Bowl in Jax.
@@bobb6313 D'oh! You're right, my bad.
Yes, quality affordable venues are BAD. Spoken by a NON-TAXPAYER,
hmmm interesting perspectives. I also hear that stadiums are the cathedrals of this era.
Lmao what? Stadiums last 30 years and cathedrals last HUNDREDS!
We kinda got lucky with Jack Murphy/Qualcomm stadium here in San Diego-it may have been large and dual purpose but had at least SOME architectural flair and provided actually pretty good seating for both Padres and Chargers games from quite a few different vantage points-It basically succumbed to simple old age (51 plus years of professional league sports use)-I feel you’re being quite unfair to my home city’s old place!
New Comiskey Park, when it opened in 1991, had its critics in 1991, but it was rather limited, largely because the White Sox were coming off a 94-68 2nd place finish in ‘90, and they had this new player named Frank Thomas, so given the distractions, criticisms were a bit limited.
The biggest complaint was that the stadium turned its back to the Chicago skyline (which was stupid) and embraced the view of the infamous Robert Taylor Housing Projects.
My complaints in ‘91 was THAT view, and the blue seats, and no outfield upper decks.
People with college degrees made these bad decisions proving higher education is often very overrated and always over-priced.
But I digress. Let’s talk about 1992.
Oriole Park @ Camden Yards arrived in 1992 and the flood gates of disgust from Sox Fans regarding the “Ball Mall” flowed like an avalanche…and it was all very well deserved.
New Comiskey showed ZERO regard for the history of Old Comiskey. Blue seats, and upper deck that was ridiculous regarding the vertigo-like pitch/steepness which put fans further from the action. Gone were the outfield upper decks which meant ‘goodbye’ to the marvel of an upper deck or roof shot home run (see Ron Kittle, Harold Baines, & Greg Luzinski) and the outer architecture was blocked by three massive fan concourses which still dominate the exterior today. The sad loss of McCuddy’s…an olde famous watering hole of a bar that served generations of Sox fans and a few famous players like Babe Ruth, in favor of the ‘91 Ball Mall.
Camden Yards reminded Sox fans of what could’ve been or should’ve been considered and implemented in the design.
THAT and the now-infamous and sadly disregarded “Armor Park” drawings of a different and MUCH better ballpark left most Sox fans asking WTF!?
And things got worse over the next 14 years…
Other “retro” looking ballparks arrived for the Rockies, Rangers, Braves, Giants, Brewers, Pirates, Mets, Phillies, Yankees, Padres, and Cardinals, most of them looking superior…Meaanwhile parks for the Angels, Red Sox, Royals, and Cubs got mostly improved updates.
While more modern-ish ball sparks for the Indians, Twins, Dodgers, Tigers, and Astros, seemed to deliver or maintain a well-received fan experience. What I can say is Comiskey II is much better than what the Oakland A’s have been banished to these days.
Prediction for the A’s : they’ll either go to Las Vegas, or Portland. Personally, I think they should return to their original home of Philadelphia but that’s just me. Back to my point on Comiskey II.
Since 2005 the Sox took greater measures to change the look and feel of the once sterile ball mall inside and out by putting some kind of retro into it.
Gone are the cubby-blue seats in favor of dark green seats which is a much better improvement; the upper deck was trimmed down a bit but is still a steep and rather vertigo-ish distant place to sit.
However the new upper deck awning/roof with the translucent outer walls and some interior improvements/additions like statues of retired players, has added a much needed warmth and retro-vibe to the place. The Robert Taylor projects have been demolished but the view will remain improved but visually uninspiring, as compared to the original park’s view.
It does look & feel better but it is not cured of all of its shortcomings after 30 years.
Hopefully, they’ll build a better Comiskey III someday, and I suspect they will, as newer stadiums have a much shorter life span these days. They’ll likely build it across the street, at the site of the original Comiskey Park, once called the Baseball Palace of the World, and it will once again face the city skyline of Chicago, that it turned its back on in 1991.
I still loved Joe Robbie Stadium. What they've done to it now is an absolute crime.
Nascar tracks went though this stage in the late 90s- early 2000s
Only difference was that their “stadiums” would sellout every race. Now it’s empty seats even after reducing capacity (pre covid)
and stayed that way until late 2010 when some tracks decided to use layouts they had for other motor racing events like the Road Oval in Charlotte for the fake Playoffs or decide to change in 2020 The Other California oval track (Fontana?) from a mile & 1/2 to a just at 0.8 miles barely short track track.
The Kingdome was so ugly you couldn't even show a picture of it in the light of day, it was always best view an hour after dusk.
Loved Connie Mack Stadium.
To be honest I dont enjoy a game anymore at PNC park than I did three rivers stadium.
Now that’s very interesting for you to say because PNC Park is considered, as you likely know, as one of the best of the new ballparks for its design, view, fan experience, etc. It’s often ranked in the Top 5.
Heck, I want to go there and see a game. I think the park is gorgeous. But, looks are not enough…it’s the experience for the fans beyond the architecture and view.
I’m sadly aware of the Pirates’ lack of progress as compared to both the Steelers & Penguins, especially since 1979’s “We Are Family” World Series Champions. I still miss those pill box hats by the way but love the sleeveless jerseys that were brought back and removed again. I wish I could have seen Forbes Field.
My question to you is what did Three Rivers Stadium have that you feel is missing in PNC Park?
@@moonytheloony6516 A good ball club? The Pirates were good for most of their time at Three Rivers and have sucked for most of their time at PNC (it's the same reason I took until 2019 to go to Target Field for the first time).
@@katherineberger6329
Ya can’t blame the ballpark. I get that it’s kinda symbolic of the culture but it’s just a structure. It can’t do those types of things like ruin an organization. It just sits there, until it’s knocked down someday.
Besides, this has kinda happened before in Pittsburgh in which 35 years passed on by in between World Series titles (‘25-‘60) that couldn’t have been much fun in those in-between years…
What you can blame, is the organization. They have failed Pittsburgh completely and the Pirate legacy immensely. It’s an infamnia.
I’m not from Pittsburgh (but I’ve sure been to Kennywood) and I’m offended as to how the Pirates have been run into the ground and kept there. I’m still mad about that collapse in ‘92 vs the Braves or was that ‘91?…I forget…
But that’s just me.
I went to a Miami football game in 2013. That stadium was in atrocious shape. It's amazing what the remodel did when it became Hard Rock Stadium.
You missed Sportsman's Park in St Lous, replaced to make space for football Cardinals. And yes, I am old enough to remember when it was called that.
Love the videos man but wish they were longer
The only 3 of these stadiums still standing are Hard Rock Stadium, Angel's Stadium, and the Oakland Coliseum. 2 are now MLB only Stadiums and one is and NFL only Stadium.
You could arguably add Rogers Centre to that list, as it originally housed both the Blue Jays and the CFL's Argonauts, not to mention a few of the Bills' games have been played there, as well
Rodgers Stadium and CFL do not count!
@@jasonrandom372 If your argument is that Toronto doesn't have an NFL franchise, consider that the Buffalo Bills also played 5 regular season and 2 preseason games there between 2008 and 2012
i drive past bank of america stadium on my way to work every day. still looks slick on the outside for when it was build imo. I hope charlotte fc sticks to using it once tepper lands new gigs for the panthers.
Going to a game is almost pointless now. The prices are thru the roof for everything and you have fight long lines. Fuck that shit.
Not only that, Flat Screen high definition TV's and the added camera angles of televised sports enhances the home viewing experience too.
Way cheaper than sitting thru 4 1/2 Hour baseball game in 90 degree Summer heat at the Ballparks 😆.
Good ole Sheeb and Crosely .
Shy.bibe Park young fellow!
You also mispronounce Crosley as in "Crawsley" Field in Cincinnati. Otherwise, nice job.
I've seen one or more regular season Major League Baseball games in 55 different ballparks. The Kingdome was the worst, IMO, and will always remain the worst.
Worse than Tropicana Field? Wow.
@@jbillma I would put the Trop at the bottom of the current stadiums but the Kingdome was a special kind of bad.
What’s the best you’ve been to?
I haven't been to nearly that many... but, yeah, the Kingdome pretty much sucked.
To me the Metrodome was the worst for baseball. Rectangular with a white roof. The shape meant that none of the seats pointed towards home plate and what made them think a white roof was suitable for baseball?
The main reason that the multi-use, "cookie cutter" stadiums are no longer needed, and each team gets a stadium (or ballpark) suited for its needs is that the economics of each sport justify the huge expense of the LAND, the construction, and the maintenance of these stadia.
Great vids
As a lifelong White Sox fan, I just wanna say “Guaranteed Rate” is nowhere as bad a people claim it is, at least today it isn’t. The high upper deck is a problem that can never be fully solved but those who complain about it now have no idea how it used to be.
I think its pretty crappy they make people in the upper decl stay up there the entire game once they go up there like being in 3rd class on the titanic
@@forgottenplaces9780 trust me. You didn’t see it before the renovations, when the upper deck was 9 rows higher, the concourses were bare white and there was just nothing special. Now they have murals highlighting the team’s history, they’ve fixed the color scheme so it’s not so lifeless, the additions of the fundamentals deck and the fan deck in center field give the place a lot more character. The only real problem is how high the upper deck is. Yes when it first opened it was a very bland and generic park, if it was still like that I would agree that it’s as bad as everyone says. I accept that it’s not the best park I just don’t see how it’s the worst.
As for having upper deck tickets, you pay for the upper deck you get the upper deck. I don’t see why that’s surprising
@@Mr.E723 u get your seats in the upper deck but almost everywhere else that i have ever heard of lets you go where ever as long as its not a club area or seating, thats part of a ballpark experience is being able to go about the stadium and get different views and see different areas, its not like a nfl stadium or basketball arena where u can only see the game from your seats basically
@@forgottenplaces9780 I’m told that you can move down to the lower decks after a certain point in the game like the fourth of fifth inning but I’ve never tested this. I can see how it would stop a non Sox fan from getting to really experience the place. However, bull shit policy’s of the teams ownership aside, just experiencing the park from the upper deck isn’t sufficient enough to experience the real quality of the park. It’s better then people give it credit for, it just may take the purchase of a lower deck ticket to really get a chance to notice that (I’m not saying that’s right, just that it is what it is)
I preferred the stadiums of the '60s and '70s rather than the stupid zigzag outfield walls of the "retro" stadiums of today. Everybody wants to copy Fenway Park, which is a terrible baseball stadium. Symmetrical dimensions make much more sense.
Baseball is duller in a symmetrical park. Unpredictable bounces add interest.
Back when cities were expected to build the facilities, it should be no surprise they built them with fiscal responsibility in mind.
Not to nitpick but the old ballpark in Philly, Shibe Park is pronounced with the long i and not Shib.
I remember going to the Pontiac Silverdome when I was a kid and thinking that it was the most awesome thing ever.
And in the middle of this Kansas City gave fans the best of both worlds. An ocean of parking lots around Royals and Arrowhead Stadiums. My friends who where St. Louis Cardinals fans always admitted that Royals Stadium was a MUCH better place to watch baseball than Busch stadium, And parking was much easier too.
If you are going to cite older stadiums learn how to pronounce them correctly. It’s Cros/ly with a short o and shibe park with a long I
The retro classic area of baseball stadiums (starting with Baltimore in 1992), are no different than the lifeless, cavernous, concrete donuts of the 70s. If you go from foul pole to foul pole & look at the stadiums of today, from the view of center field looking towards home plate, They are all the same, & the upper decks are just as high up. Just because you build your out field fences & scenery all fucked up on purpose, doesn't give your stadium heritage & character. Notice I call them stadiums & not ballparks. We need to bring back the stacked upper decks. Baseball is supposed to be played in an intimate venue, not a cavernous monstrosity (New Rangers Stadium). Enough of these fake ass historic wannabe stadiums. Bring back our ballparks. P.s, The Cubs did it. They built an almost exact replica of Wrigley Field it the same spot. You hear that Jerry Reinsdorf.
Built an almost exact replica? Is this a joke?
I always thought Shea Stadium started this trend despite it not being a true "cookie cutter"
Can we have the super dome next