***NOTE*** As pointed out in a comment below, if there was a mistake made I believe it was not including a line in Polymorph to specifically say that the THP drops when the spell drops as they did with Life Giving Force. The problem exists in the spell itself rather than with the rules of concentration or THP in general.
Yes, one hand at WotC removed the language from Temporary Hit Points in general, while the other hand wasn't told to update specific spells to match this change.
Indeed and I think the answer comes down to how your table plays the game and thus the role of the DM. Do you play it as a game where cheesing the rules is half the fun or do are you creating a narratively consistent story where what feels right and doesn't break the fantasy reality is more important than rules text. Both are valid you might want to adopt different approaches for a curse of strahd campaign to a Halloween one shot. It's why we have a DM in the game because otherwise the rules text has to limit the game to defined specific interactions.
While not as explicit as preferred and certainly not RaW I think RaI the line: "The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left." Does a poor job but does the job none the less of linking the Temporary Hit Points explicitly to the form and is solid enough for me to run it as working vice versa. agree with other examples though especially Heroism. Only thing I would be unsure about is in the case of casting a storm cloud spell if another character has a readied action to attack said caster if they cast a spell and the storm cloud caster is attacked and fails their concentration saving throw, the reaction should interrupt the cast but does the spell end before the instantaneous effect is resolved or not i'm not personally sure.
I imagine polymorphing into a t-rex for 6 seconds will inevitably become a part of the traditional wedding ceremonies people have before they enter a dungeon.
Refreshing, even. (I've watched far too many D&D related youtube videos where it's immediately clear the 'tuber has done zero prep before turning on the camera)
I would argue that Polymorph *is* sustaining the temp hp since the spell ends early when you run out of Temp HP. Even if you disagree and think that RAW you get to keep the temp HP, I would then argue that its clearly not RAI, because if you play that way then Polymorphing someone into a Giant Ape and immediately dropping it gives them 157 temp HP using a 4th lvl slot compared to Power Word Fortify which is 7th level and gives a max of 120 temp HP. (I know InsightCheck said he won't be playing it that way, which I think was a great addition, but I wanted to call out another rules interaction that makes me think it would still be RAW to remove the temp hp)
I think I could argue otherwise for the same reasoning? I don't have a huge chip in the pile for either direction, but say in theory you already have really good temp HP set up and you get polymorphed (either by someone else or your own actions) into something with low CR and thus normally low HP. Maybe as a solid disguise, but you have temp HP Just In Case. In that instance, you could choose to forsake the temp HP provided by Polymorph in exchange for the higher temp HP you already have and it's just as valid... because your transformation is just linked to the existence of temp HP, not specifically temp HP provided by the transformation. Edit: I did see someone bring up the description comparing the wording of Mass Polymorph and how it contrasts to this, being that Mass Polymorph actually had wording preventing that sort of issue (though I do think the wording does kind of fail to take into account temp HP you get before the polymorph, while it brings up temp HP that you would get afterwards: overriding Polymorph HP as opposed to Polymorph HP overriding what already existed). In that aspect, it would make sense, especially if that line was an unintentional removal.
Power Word Fortify is 7th level for only 120 thp yes, but the difference here is that those thp can be spread around to multiple creatures, whereas polymorph's are just affecting the one creature you use it on. That is the distinction.
@@supmarioful Considering the spell becomes progressively worse the more you split it, to a point where it is recommended you only ever split to two but preferably just buff one person.... that is not a valid explanation as to why it is 7th level while a 4th lvl slot can achieve its most powerful effect in a better way then.
I mean comparing spells like that isn't always reliable, simply because a lot of spells have very different balance. Spiritual Weapon was always a strictly better version than Mordenkainen's Sword despite showing up 5 levels earlier, and Fireball generally does more damage than other damaging spells above it. The new Conjure Minor Elementals is especially egregious with how powerful it is compared to all other options at high level. It's a good example for why the ruling would feel bad, but it's a bad example for why the ruling would be unintended or inconsistent.
157 for a 4th level slot vs. 120... to up to six creatures. Adds versatility. I also wouldn't assume you can glean design intent from spell power. Mordenkainen's Sword or whatever it was called was a 7th level spell no one ever took because it was less effective than substantially lower level spells. Doesn't mean the lower spells were doing more than intended.
Good exploration! It gets even more messy when some Concentration spells like Compelled Duel and Cloud of Daggers don't have "For the duration" or "Until the spell ends", but they are clearly not meant to compel a creature forever or create a damaging cube that lasts forever.
Excellent video. How can WotC fix this? The problem is NOT that temp HP from concentration spells stick around. The problem is specific to Polymorph. They could errata Polymorph to say "when the spell ends, any remaining temporary HPs from this spell vanish".
I'm not sure Polymorph is the only problem effect... I would not bet against the possibility WotC repeats this exact same mistake in a future splatbook...
I think one of the issues with the comment thread is that many folks answer with how they will run it and others how it RAW reads without much distinction of which they are saying. That miscommunication leads to a lot of heated arguments so I appreciate that you begun the video with a disclaimer on how you would actually run the game before going into the details. This was a great breakdown although feel like we need a chart to keep track of it all :D
I think your assessment of the breakdown in the comments is completely accurate. A lot of the nuance is lost there and people are often discussing different things but not realizing it lol!
Almost everyone who explains the RAW won't actually run it RAW. Its the people arguing about the RAI that refuse to admit that the RAW works as we say it does, even though none of us are happy with how it works... and all of us will make THP drop despite it going against the RAW
@@20storiesunder It's the RAI people arguing for no reason. The people discussing the RAW are just pointing out the ways the game can be broken, using what is written.
Great analysis. Emphasises one of difficulties of translating imagined, fantasy situations into mechanics. When I answered your poll, I was thinking, “where do the temp HP come from when casting Polymorph? If I transform into an elephant, it’s because I’m big and bulky, so when I stop being that way, they should also stop.” Yet when I heard you break it down as a ‘rule’, I was persuaded by the ‘instantaneous vs sustained’ argument. In other words, it’s complicated. Like you though I’ll continue to rule that temp HP from Polymorph disappear when the spell drops, cos for me, the bulkiness, or lack thereof, has gone, so it just makes sense that way narratively.
@@mystopian I do believe your gut instinct is the correct way of interpreting rules however. It's way more valuable if things make sense within the world rather than paper.
You covered this really well! I still consider the Temp HP from Polymorph to be limited by Concentration, but that could be just gut instinct and what I think "makes sense". Regardless, you did an excellent job showing both sides in a fair and even way, while still maintaining your own opinion throughout
Much appreciated, that was very much the goal here. I really wanted to emphasize that it is very possible to not agree with something and still show that it might be the “intention”.
I really wish people would understand why we do these deep dives, rules lawyer discussions. No, it's not say this is how one should play, it's about understanding the game and how it actually functions, for you to them apply as you see fit. For example, the grapple rules. Did you know you can't release a grapple anymore? Sounds stupid, and I would never enforce it... but. Just because I won't play it that way, doesn't mean I'm not aware of how the game actually works.
Hard agree. I LOVE these deep dives. They are genuinely my favourite videos to make and are why I made this channel. And it’s never to tell people how to play or what to think. Game design and analysis is so interesting and expands our thoughts and helps to understand the foundations better!
I think you're right. I think that in general, granting temporary hitpoints is an instantaneous effect. But I also think they just forgot to put in the line about the temporary hitpoints going away when Polymorph ends. And I think that is super clear to anyone who understands the game and thinks for even half a second about how the in-game effects are reflected in the mechanics.
I agree with this. I think the mistake they made came in the Polymorph spell rather than it being an issue with THP or concentration more broadly. Polymorph absolutely should contain language to say that the THP disappears when the spell drops, much like Life Giving Force does!
@@InsightCheck Though this is from the 2014 version, Mass Polymorph from Xanathar's had the right idea in its wording: "Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour" "Each target gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the hit points of its new form. These temporary hit points can't be replaced by temporary hit points from another source. A target reverts to its normal form when it has no more temporary hit points or it dies. If the spell ends before then, the creature loses all its temporary hit points and reverts to its normal form." I do find it interesting they didn't use this for these updated spells.
Yes, people argue "since the language was removed from THP in general, this effect for Polymorph must be intentional" completely forgetting the mistake could have been elsewhere. "Task 723: remove language from TPH to clarify granting THP is instantaneous. Also go through every spell and add back in restrictions wherever necessary" Just because the first part was finished the way they intended does not mean the second part was finished the way they intended (with no errors or omissions).
Oh! Another point I keep meaning to make - I don't think we should read too much into the specific word-by-word *changes* between 2014 and 2024 rules. That is - don't look at the removal or addition of words in a rule and use the *difference* to infer intent. Instead, simply read the 2024 rule in isolation. Writing styles and conventions can cause a lot of wording changes. Moving to a more exacting text or a more conversational tone can change wording even if the rule is intended to work identically. Look at "knocked prone" vs "gain the prone condition".
I don't think you mentioned that other way to gain THP: wildshape. It certainly reads like my druid gets to keep any remaining THP after dropping wildshape.
Yes, the 1d8+mod that doesn't scale from level 3 to 20... Artificer is such a cool class, but a lot of the features of it and the sub classes are super sub-par.
This whole conversation as to whether or not temporary hit points go away upon the duration of a spell ending I believe is made moot by the fact that the power word fortify spell which is instantaneous and requires no concentration provides up to 120 points of temporary hip points. Does reaffirm the idea that the creation of the temporary hip points is an instantaneous effect and they last until either long rest or their depleted unless stated otherwise. I believe the solution regarding the abuse of the polymorph spells should simply be that the caster of the polymorph spell choosing to end the spell also depletes the temporary hit points.
I don't find the effect of an instantaneous spell which is not subject to concentration rules on the effects of the spell to be convincing regarding temporary HP provided by a concentration spell that is subject to those rules.
Your analysis looks right to me... RAW, it says they persist, but I think that's bad for the game and overall balance. There are several places where they seemed to have messed up the wording, and caused issues that were not present in 2014. I don't think this book was done cooking when they released it.
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g I think it's more an issue of the game designers wanting to do more playtesting, and the C-Suite saying "no, sell book *NOW*"... Even so, they did put out more iterations of UA than they first announced.
@@guamae Unfortunately the new monster stats that are trickling out make it clear that they view it as a intentional positive you can juggle a heavy crossbow, sword and shield, and a greatsword freely in a heinously unrealistic way, when it obviously only makes the game intensely stupid and videogamey :(
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g but it's not a video game. Any rule is only in effect if a given table says it is, and WotC can never change that. My biggest concern is to have player options relatively balanced against each other, and for player choices to matter. I can tweak encounters however much is necessary until they're balanced to what my party is.
@@guamae Of course! I'm just lamenting that apparently Crawford & Co have played so many video games they thought it would be a cool good idea to allow martials free reign on applying masteries depite how intensely reality-removed and videogame that makes the game feel like. In short, no, a feature isn't worth it if it requires a fighter to be able to pull out, use with precision, and tuck away a heavy crossbow and a greataxe in the space of only a couple of seconds. The ONLY place you ever see that happening is cartoons and videogames - but nobody at WotC were there to say "maybe its a really bad idea to sneak this into a mid-edition update...?" :(
I love the video and especially love the analysis of concentration and how some effects of concentration are independent of the concentration itself. I never thought about it in those terms, but always made decisions from that frame of reference.
I don't think I or any of my DM friends will even for a second entertain the idea that Temporary Hit Points can persist longer than the effect that grants them (unless it lasts indefinitely/is instantaneous). It's clearly a rules oversight and not intended.
Agreed. Im of the opinion temp hp remains until lost. You dont undo the damage of spirit gaurdians when you drop concentration. You wouldnt undo gained temp hp by the same logic.
I don't buy it. Temp HP are not merely HP. They are not healing. They are a thing you fundamentally do not have unless granted by a spell, ability, or other such resource. Healing and damage simply change the value of your HP, they don't create something from nothing. *shrug* I'm not saying I'm fully convinced temp HP aren't instantaneous either. I need to look into it more, but I've yet to see a really convincing argument on why all instances of temp HP are inherently an instantaneous effect.
@@MannonMartin Please be aware that you're trying to make sense of an abstract set of rules. This is only a light-hearted and fun rules-lawyery exercise; common sense is only getting in the way ;)
I love listening to deep dives. The other thing that you didn't mention is that DM's can decide how to abjucate this ruling for themselves and their group like you are, not being bound to the rules 1:1.
Deep dives are exactly what I created my channel for, videos like this are truly my favourite to make! And I actually did mention that! It was right at the end and easy to miss. Don’t have the timestamp but it is there! I think I start it with “Does any of this really matter? No.”
Changing polymorph from hp to temp hp has also removed the power word kill exploit. On a side note, I still think 5e would benefit greatly from having a keyword system, that way you could just describe a spell, add a few tags, and reference those tags exact effects in a glossary. I do like the idea of something being able to dispell instantaneous effects. Perhaps that could be a spell in its own right.
Very well done as always! I really love these sorts of deep dives into rules and rule interactions. I think it’s the designer side of me haha. Now for why I think that even upon a shallower inspection, the rules provide the reason that the Polymorph Temp HP last after the spell ends. So my argument about why the Temporary Hit Points rule is “more specific” is that the durations and Concentration rules are talking about the game as a whole, and all effects with durations. Temp HP on the other hand specifies what its duration is, meaning that if a spell has a duration and grants Temp HP, and the spell ends the Temp HP rules specify that the Temp HP continue to last, of course unless even more specific rules in a specific spell say otherwise. So to me RAW that alone (due to the fact that Polymorph doesn’t specify otherwise) means that the Temp HP from Polymorph do last after the Concentration on the spell ends. Meaning I agree with you 😂, and I love how you specified that just because you think this is how the rules DO work, it’s not how you think they should or want them to work.
Incredibly happy that that came across as that was truly the goal. I think it’s very important to recognize that it’s very possible to not like or disagree with something and still understand its merit. Also you raise a good point too, I had to go much deeper for the sake of the video though haha
For Polymorph, those THP should absolutely go away when the spell ends. False Life and Power Word Fortify, since they are an Instantaneous type spell, those THP should remain until a Long Rest, in the way other THP from Inspiring Leader, etc. work. Also, I've built a Warlock 1/Bard 13 who grabs as many THP granting spells as possible to fuel Armor of Agathys at high levels. With Power Word Fortify, you can give yourself all 120 THP, and then use a 6th level spell slot to cast Armor of Agathys, allowing you to do 30 Cold damage to anything that hits you with a melee attack for as long as those 120 THP remain.
Neat. :) That's both your highest spell slots though. And it only works in melee and AoAs effect can be dispelled by a simple lvl 3 dispel magic and a DC16 spellcasting ability check. In your experience, is it realy worth it to put all those eggs in one basket?
@@Gnarlf now listen here, you let me have my stupid one trick build. 🤣 Honestly, it's not a one trick build. It's a Valor Bard that uses its Charisma for everything important. But that's just a fun interaction that I would definitely blow my highest spell slots on. Although Polymorph, if it does indeed keep any THP after dropping it, is definitely a useful addition, since some of those beasts are very tanky.
@@WolfHreda Oh mate, more power to you. I'm all for players having fun at my table. That's the whole point of playing the game. I was merely curious if you consider it actually a strong option or just a realy fun thing to do. 😉
@Gnarlf just fun, for sure. If I were in a high level one-shot, I'd take it in a heartbeat. In a regular campaign where we might never get that high, I'd probably choose something a bit more versatile in lower tier play.
If they wanted the temp hp to persist, they should have made polymorph more like the new wild shape where the amount of temp hp is based on the spell level rather than the beast. That way it isn’t 150 temp hp + your own hp pool, but like 10x spell level temp hp + your hit point pool
Once you heal or take damage or fall prone that is a physical interaction that is a result of the spells magical effects. Not magical so not bound to a spells duration. Temp hp to me has always been a magical effect/shield. I would rule if the spell provided temp hp and has concentration then the temp hp goes away when concetration is lost, same with the other magical effects listed in the spells description. If it's instantaneous like with AoA then you follow normal temp hp rules.
Now we need you to weigh in on whether you can use 2024 War Caster's slightly different phrasing to create a "hype tunnel" by Opportunity Attacking your fellow party members with buffs as they run by you.
I think the temporary hit points are defined by the creature chosen for morphing, which in turn has a specific duration governed by the spell. I would hold this is probably intended of spells with durations generally, but I can't think of a similar example with mixed temporary hit points and concentration that doesn't have an effect that separately grants hit points, like Heroism. Rules as written, I'm forced to agree that you can interpret this as an instantaneous effect of an enduring spell. I also think you can understand it as an attachment to that enduring effect itself, meaning that it ends when you stop Concentrating. Rules as intended, I don't think they would have intentionally designed Polymorph to grant so many more single-target hit points than Power Word: Fortify.
Are TEMP HP supposed to be a Buffer protecting the character's actual HP? IF so, there should be detailed information on What creates the buffer so there is a detailed information on what Ends the buffer. I polymorph a target into a Giant Gorilla. Being a Giant Gorilla gives TEMP HP. Ending concentration and turning the target back to normal should also end the TEMP HP. (Target is no longer a Giant Gorilla) Just my 2 Copper.
There is detailed information on what ends the buffer - either: 1) the buffer is depleted through damage 2) you take a long rest Simple. Any exceptions are noted in the individual spells and abilities. (Except where WotC forgot to do so ;-) )
Another good example of how the 2024 edition is leading to Ruling Debates is Divine Intervention. There's a pretty steep debate regarding whether the "As part of the same action" line in Divine Intervention lets the ability override yhe Magic Action rules for casting spells with longer Cast Times.
For the record, my argument is that since Divine Intervention itself states to use a Magic Action when choosing the Cleric Spell you want to cast, that Magic Action is what is used to Cast the chosen Spell. Thus, the specific rules Magic Action has for spells with longer Cast Times apply.
For the record, the 2014 edition led to ten years of ruling debates, and all that debating has prepared us to analyze the rules with a fine tooth comb and find the problems sooner. On top of that, we haven’t had much or any direct rulings from our lord and savior Jeremy Crawford, I’m sure those will start rolling out after the Monster Manual comes out next year.
An interesting video. I hadn’t thought that much about Temp HP before, and I might just settle on the side of “THP are granted instantaneously and last until depleted/long rest, unless stated otherwise”, at least for 5.24 D&D. I do agree with Polymorph being the problem; it feels to me like the temp HP from Poly is supposed to represent the new “body” you have taken on. Thus, when the new body’s HP (the temp HP granted) runs out, you revert back to your old form. They just forgot / should have addressed the flip side of “lose THP => lose poly form” which would be “lose poly form => lose THP”. I don’t agree with your analysis of Vitality of the Tree at 5:20. You say Life-Giving Force allows the barbarian to both gain and distribute THP; that is not correct, as it only concerns distributing THP to others. Vitality Surge is the (sub-)feature that allows the barbarian to gain THP. And the sentence that states the THP vanish at the end of your Rage is in the paragraph for Life-Giving Force, and thus it only applies to that portion. If that was an exception that they wanted to apply to both subfeatures, they likely would have split it off into a separate paragraph. As is, I would feel it either is saying “Your (the barbarian) THP stay after Rage, like normal, but the THP on others goes away as an exception to the rule”, or “Your THP go away at the end of Rage as you’d expect, but we want to remind you that the THP you gave to others will also go away, even though they aren’t losing Rage themselves.” Remember, also, not all statements of how something works are pointing out an exception; sometimes the designers are just reminding the reader how a rule works, or confirming that the generic rule does still apply in the case being discussed, if people might be expected to imagine an exception that doesn’t actually exist.
First, there is a clear distinction between regular HP affected by damange/healing, and THP, because THP have a general rule for how long they last, while HP have no duration. My interpretation is that if a spell or ability creates a delayed trigger that happens when THP are gone, then then the duration of that spell or ability is tied to those THP, and is therefore a more specific duration than tbe general duration THP. This accounts for why something like False Life does not need to specify a duration for THP, and why Vitality of the Tree needs to explicity include clause on them being lost.
I don't think you can use that it's a separate paragraph to prove that the line about the temp hp is an ancillary instantaneous effect. If that was the case, then the following paragraphs would also be ancillary instantaneous effects and you would be permanently losing the ability to speak/cast spells and all of your equipment when you use this spell. All 3 paragraphs make reference to the new form the target is taking (which is explicitly limited by the duration), and tie that effect to the form to varying degrees. I don't have my hands on the PHB right now to assess the idea you're presenting as a whole, but I think it's much more likely they are generally removing redundant language in the spell descriptions as much as they can for brevity. They talked extensively about doing just that all throughout WotC's preview videos for these books.
@@InsightCheck I mean it's kind of the lynch-pin of the whole argument though. You spend 9 (~6:30-15:30, arguably more) consecutive minutes building up to an argument that spells can have instantaneous effects that do not end when the spell ends, and then apply that to polymorph under a very flimsy premise. The only point you made outside of the spell duration argument was that you can choose to reject the temp hp, which I agree makes the spell stupidly designed, but it doesn't make them an "added bonus." It's much more likely the designer's didn't consider the ability to reject the temp hp, given that it makes the spell completely useless in niche and unintuitive situations, and that they wrote, across 2 sentences in the spell's text, language that ties the temp hp and the beast form together.
I think part of the issue is that most(?) people think of Temp HP like Power Word: Barrier in World of Warcraft, a magical buff. So when the spell ends, the buff ends too. However, THP can't be dispelled, AFAIK (unless the spell states that THP ends when the spell ends). It's hard to rationalize, but THP is like a natural, non-magical 2nd HP pool, created by magic, but not sustained by magic. (How does an extra pool of non-magical toughness make sense in the "real world" though?) So THP not being tied to concentration makes sense, if the THP isn't magical. For Polymorph, they should have added a line that says that the Temp HP goes away when the spell ends, but RAW it looks like it doesn't. Conceptually, THP makes no sense, but as a combat system, it's a useful mechanic.
Seems like wotc made some sort of a mistake. If DM allows casting Polymorph into Giant Ape, immediately dropping concentration and keeping THP, then 4th level spell is more powerful than a similar 7th level Power Word Fortify cast on a single creature. When you're finally able to cast PWF, you can instead cast Polymorph on entire party using 4th and 5th level slots into some CR10-13 beast with even more HP that is hopefully going to be printed in new MM. I strongly believe Polymorph (and Conjure Minor Elementals) will be in the first errata.
I agree 100% it's pretty clear RAW that temp hp dont drop but that they very much should. 1 example of an abuse is casting polymorph on yourself and choosing guant ape for over 150 temp hp then casting Armor of Agathys and choosing to keep the 150. Because of the way the spells are written that is allowed and the Armor will likely last the 1 hour duration. Luckily the damage output scales with the level cast and not the temp hp
I think one argument that will come back often, after the release of the new DMG, is "Is this a good faith reading ?". Is this logical to keep your temporary hp after you drop polymorph or wild shape ? Is this fun ?
I recon its a simple oversight. They probably intended polymorph to work like before. Maybe they updated the spell before they had made a decision to remove the tempHP-duration line from the players handbook. Then when the line was removed in the rules, the spell needed to be updated, but likely missed it because they didnt think of polymorph gave tempHP.
If the Temp HP provided by the Polymorph spell don't go away when the spell ends, then Polymorph, a level 4 spell, is way better than the new Power Word Fortify spell, which is a level 7 spell. If you Polymorph someone into a T-Rex (136 HP), they gain more Temp HP than if they were targeted by PW Fortify (120 THP).
Yeah seems obvious to me that THP stay past concentration. I wouldn’t want a player using this as a strategy every combat as it is a little game breaking but once or twice a campaign i could see allowing some stunts with the residual energy left over from time as a giant ape
i think the problem here is that Temp HP is a misnomer treating bestowing Temp HP like healing, when the PHB explicitly calls out that it isn't and is only meant to prevent you from losing HP when you are hit. I think Temp Armor would be a more fitting name but it only applies when you are hit and AC prevents you from getting hit so there would be that confusion
My problem with temp hp is that it doesn't stack even when gained from different sources, which made sense for simplicity 10 years ago when there was like 2 sources of it, but now it works poorly both mechanically and thematically.
It makes it impossible to minmax, if that's what you mean. For a rule that clearly states (without exceptions) "only one source, no stacking" must be considered very clean, efficient and simple rules design...
I have no issue with THP not stacking. If anything it made less sense back when there were fewer sources of it. Now with so many it can be a very easily abuseable if they let it stack.
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Yes, i agree that it is clean, efficient and simple. I am also saying it is limiting. Minmaxing it, by stacking temp hp on the whole party from, say, inspiring leader, twilight sanctuary, heroism or whatever other spells and features, still wouldn't be very good, and is easily balanced against. Meanwhile, disallowing different sources to stack is dissatisfying mechanically, since it can lead to one party member's investment into feat, and another's into subclass, and somebody else's into spells, suddenly they are cocblocking each other. These benefits also are destroyed for no good reason if somebody shapeshifts or uses things like agathys. It is also makes no sense thematically, because of the wide variety of phenomena covered by temp hp all somehow cancelling each other, including such things as "being brave boy", " wearing ablative armor", "healing that we wanted not to work out of combat", "being a kitty cat", "being encased in a block of ice".
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Yes, i agree that it is clean, efficient and simple. I am also saying it is limiting. Minmaxing it, by stacking temp hp on the whole party from, say, inspiring leader, twilight sanctuary, heroism or whatever other spells and features, still wouldn't be very good, and is easily balanced against. Meanwhile, disallowing different sources to stack is dissatisfying mechanically, since it can lead to one party member's investment into feat, and another's into subclass, and somebody else's into spells, suddenly they are blocking each other. These benefits also are destroyed for no good reason if somebody shapeshifts or uses things like agathys. It is also makes no sense thematically, because of the wide variety of phenomena covered by temp hp all somehow cancelling each other, including such things as "being brave boy", " wearing ablative armor", "healing that we wanted not to work out of combat", "being a kitty cat", "being encased in a block of ice".
I kind of like Temporary HP lasting until they are used up (or LR), except in the case of Polymorph. In my (humble and limited view), the temporary HP granted by the spell are there due to the transformation of form, once that form is lost, the temp hp should go away as well. The devs were trying to 'fix' (some of) the problems in the 5.14 polymorph (namely, the fact that you can't really die that easily when transformed), and in so doing they created this little loophole. The spell just needs a clause added that indicates that these temp HP go away when the spell ends (specific overriding general). I guess this just comes down to me thinking it is a dev oversight in this particular spell, but a strong argument could be made that the devs intended it to work this way. Are there any other cases of temp HP grants that don't really make sense or cause problems like Polymorph? I can't think of any. I mean sure, you can use Power Word Fortify to really juice up someone's Armor of Agathys, but if that is the way you want to spend your high level spell slots, more power to you.
It feels wierd to argue that the temp hp on polymorph isn't related to the duration/ concentration of the spell when the spell explicitly ends when the temp hp is depleted.
I've gotten a lot of push back via my video here, my video on TT, and discussions in discord about this very thing. As far as I'm concerned, it is currently rules as written, even if it isn't necessarily rules as intended. Until they modify it, that is absolutely how it works.
I think the fundamental problem is that temp HP are designed to be something "you" have, while the effects they come from are *always* more like a buff or shield that has the HP. I think it should be clarified that the temp HP are never actually stats attached to you, just something that gets between you and a source of damage. This makes them different from dealing damage, healing, or things like the prone condition.
Polymorph was always a broken spell that has more uses that any other (except wish). Insane control, Insane buffs, Insane mobility, Insane utility... now the insane defense just got a bit better.
What I think is supposed to happen with polymorph is that your THP is not instantaneous in the way you think. Here's the important part of the spell : "The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form. The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left." That ruling sounds like the THP and the beast form's HP is linked. Here's my interpretation of it and I believe it still fits your points in the video. What you gain isn't an amount of THP. What you gain literally is "a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form". You gain this buff instantaneously, but the amount follows the beast form's HP. Iit is true the other way around as well. The beast form's HP is also equal to the THP as they are linked. If your player wants to keep the THP from their Armor of Agathys, will you tell them that they can't transform? Of course not. The beast's HP will become equal to the THP he has on him. When it reaches 0, they lose the beast form. At all points, the HP of the beast is equal to the THP. So when you lose the beast's form, you lose the THP since they are linked. In the case above, the THP was from another source so you wouldn't lose them. But if the source is the beast form's hp and the beast form is gone, that THP goes to 0 since the HP of a non-existing beast form is 0. Technically, that buff you gained is not really remove per se, but since it is tied to the form and that form is gone with the concentration, it indirectly sets the THP the 0 and as a result you lose the buff. That's what I see when I read the spell and it fits with the points you mentioned in the video. As you said at the start of the video, no matter what the real RAW is, I would still rule that you lose the THP at the end of the concentration because it doesn't make sense to keep the fortitude of a Giant Ape when you're not it anymore. It's a shame that they didn't make a better job at explaining the mechanics of Polymorph.
So heres the question, what if you cast polymorph through a glyph of warding? and then what we do is walk into a moonbeam and end the shape change effect on ourselves. do we now revert back to human form without losing our TPH?
I mean that’s exactly what this entire video is discussing and based on everything it seems like the intent of the designers was for it to persist beyond the spell duration.
The example of Heroism relying on the general case of THP being non-cumulative proves that spells are more specific than the THP rules, which strongly suggests that polymorph works as (almost) everybody expects. However, from the number of videos created claiming massively broken mechanics because they haven't read all the related rules, I do wish they'd stuck with the old ways of being clear in each case, instead of relying on people's extremely thorough reading and understanding of intersecting rules...
Temporary Hit Points should remain after the spell or its Concentration ends. Simple. Temporary Hit Points can also dispelled by Dispel Magic, or walking into a Anti-Magic Field. Even Legendary Magic Items are usless in a area of Anti-Magic. However the Effects of Magic can remain in the ruins of battle. Temporary Hit Points are not an effect. Therefore, walking into an Anti-Magic field will shut down your Temporary Hit points due to the fact that magic is Completely shut down, along with your #3 Quarterstaff, in these areas.
It eludes me why they even felt the need to change the wording of Polymorph in the first place, but the second paragraph is clearly missing the reverse case that should state, if the spell ends early on the target it loses the gained Temporary Hit Points, because they were clearly linked to the Beast form that the target was polymorphed into. 🦖 No DM in their right mind should let anyone get away with Rules lawyering this nonsense, and declare common sense the winner. It is sad to see, that WotC touched things that didn't need fixing and create new controversies/problems as a result. @InsightCheck I had such a hard time not to comment on your previous video about this, thank god you made a seperate video to force my hand. 😂Keep it up!👍
I've got mixed feelings here... and I think the only real outlier problem for this is Polymorph. I think it's clear that Wild Shape was intended to leave temps behind after dropping, and as someone who has played a ton of druid over the years that is such a fantastic change - so many times I've been at full hp having just used a Wild Shape and had a teammate do something dumb and suddenly need me to pick them up with a heal. If I'm a team player and drop form, the punishment stings. Now at least I keep the tempies, even if I no longer can maul things. For almost everything in the game, this rule works fine. The only point where it seems weird is with Polymorph. If they leave it as-is, I mean, it's not the end of the world. Part of the point of the spell was to make someone beefy. On the other hand, it seems weird to cast it, turn into a giant monkey, then drop it immediately and just have the beef left behind. But like you said, it's complicated. And now people might be more willing to Polymorph themselves rather than doing it to someone else and hiding rather than risking the loss of concentration.
if we are really nit-picking polymorph I have a bigger problem. The sentence reads: "The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form." Very explicitly the sentence says Beast FORM not the chosen beast. You gain temporary hit points equal to the HP of the Beast FORM. so how many hp does the Beast FORM have? well... "The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration." So if you are targeted by Polymorph and fail the saving throw YOU become the Beast form. Therefore the Beast FORM's hit points are your hit points. That means if you target a lvl 20 barbarian with 200hp, and polymorph them into a snail, they gain 200 temp hp because the beast form (aka the barbarian) has 200 hp. Similarly if you try to polymorph an 1 hp ally into a giant ape to save them from going down, all you did was give them 1 temp hp, as that's how many hit points the beast form has. very silly. Nit-picking rules can be fun but I agree, we all know how it is supposed to work. (sorry if this comment is double posted, it didn't seem to appear the first time I posted it)
I am very much in split personality when it comes to the new rules. As a player, some things I really like, other things are very disappointing. Sitting in the DM seat, I find my views to be almost (not completely) the opposite. Congrats on your 10k plus subscriber count! Keep up the great content.
Yeah there’s a lot of mixed reactions to a lot of this stuff for sure and it’s understandable. It feels like they missed the opportunity to really fix so many of the holes that existed from 2014. And some have been fixed, but many more have been created. Thank you very much for the kind words!
Maybe there should be two sets of rules: The Player's Handbook where every ambiguity and unclear corner case is clearly resolved in the players' favor... and the "Dungeon Master's Handbook", with near-identical text except all these cases are resolved the opposite way, in the monsters favor 🙂
I think you muddy the water by calling the effects of a concentration spell instantaneous. That way you sneak in way more than you could otherwise. The effect does not make parts of the spell instantaneous in the sense of an instantaneous spell. It still runs under the concentration rules. That being said, I still agree with your conclusion that the spell is worded poorly.
A lot of 5e rules just don't hold up well under scrutiny. I love thought experiments like this but they always end the same: More confusion and frustration. Probably best to not over-think these things.
To be honest, I genuinely want to be excited about the 2024 rules but it does sometimes feel as though for every thing that they've fixed, they've broken something else! One misplaced word or sentence is all it takes to throw us into confusion! Maybe this is what happens when you lay off huge numbers of your writing and book staff, but we may never know. Thanks for another great video, really looking forward to your thoughts on the full release of Daggerheart next year!
I fear one of the most obnoxious changes (unlimited weapons juggling) can't be blamed on layoffs. I feel even a single dev would be enough to make this incredibly irritating change.
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g I didn't want to mention the Two Weapon Fighting rules because they fill me with immense disappointment. But yes, I can only speculate as to the cause of such gaffs however I will happily take a potshot at WOTC as I do.
I personally never understood why they just didn't drop all the little duration bits and change the entire rule to: temporary hit points do not stack, you keep the highest number when a new source is gained. These temporary hit points remain until you long rest, or they are depleted.
You've just described the entire rule. What you just said is the entire general rule. (Except this minor issue that you don't have to pick the highest number when a new source is gained, you can pick the lower number if you want) Then there's specific exceptions for specific abilities. Not having those would make it very tricky to balance stuff. For instance, not including a specific rule that makes the Temporary HP go away when the spell ends would probably make lots of people feel Polymorph is overpowered... ;-)
@@jamesvance1367 157hp from polymorph into a giant ape (couldn't find a beast with more hp on a quick search) By casting a 4th level spell, breaking concentration on anything else you cast previously and then also breaking concentration on polymorph, if you are only interested in the hp. 120hp from power word fortify by casting a 7th level spell on a single creature but keeping concentration on previously cast spells. Would be the two that spring to mind first. There might be others.
I guess the first question is, is this a problem? Mechanically speaking, in 2014 you took on the hit points of the form your inhabited, and any thing that provided temporary or real hit points to you could help you persist in that form. Now you get a supply of temporary hit points that piles on top of your real hit points. So if you're topped off, you can't get further real healing and any temp hp doesn't stack with what you have. My players aren't the type to try and exploit rules loopholes, and I don't cotton to such nonsense either so bag of rats type of things have never worked in my games. So I'm not always the best at seeing what the problem is. This reminds me of the changes made to Counter spell in that it's player friendly. If you polymorph someone into a Giant Ape and the spellcaster gets knocked out in the next round you'd loose out on the massive damage, but at least the temp HP would make it feel like a little bit less of a loss for the spell slot. On the other hand, it's a bit counter-intuitive to the fiction behind the mechanics. If I get temp HP from BEING a giant ape and having the extra mass and muscle, then it doesn't make sense that I'd still be as robust when I'm no longer in that form. I think for my table, I'd probably rule that the temp HP are tied to the form, and only persist as long as you maintain the form that granted them. Not a mechanical consideration really, but just feels better for my table.
Rule as Written Rule as Intended Rule as munchkin weenies twist them to gain OP advantages... The fundamental problem is that incredibly verbose, lengthy and technical wording is needed to shut down the weenies. That technical war gamer wording will 'turn off' 95% of the player base. So they make the rules approachable, then people try to take advantage of that. Right now, the DM is the bad guy who needs to say no you can't use that interpretation. In 2014 sage advice used to referee this. Not sure what's a 2024 strategy is for either errata or shutting down extreme ratings of rules. Regardless of the text, it's pretty obvious that's a hit points you gain by being polymorphed into a giant ape go away when you're not a giant ape anymore, irregardless of the exact wording in the spell...
I hate the name “temporary hit points.” I’ve always thought of them as a barrier effect, like a scholar’s Adloquium spell in Final Fantasy 14. Plus it made sense thinking you can’t have temp hp from 2 sources, like a Scholar and Sage can’t stack their barriers in ff14. Even with polymorph HP, I imagine the remaining vitality of the form converting into a residual barrier.
So wait, is Polymorph in 2024 useless then? If you can opt out of Temp HP, then if a creature fails their saving throw they can just opt out if they already have some and they aren't polymorphed?
You can technically only opt out of the THP if you already have some. If they fail the save, they can opt out of taking the beast’s THP and just keep their current set but they would still be transformed.
In addition to it only being opt out when they already have thp, you can still use the spell in the other manner: to provide an ally a massive thp pool
@@InsightCheck fwiw, using the spell strictly for thp could be compared to using the slot for Death Ward. Both are fourth level spells, both ultimately mitigate damage, and both are only really useful if you are being targeted when used in this manner. You get a lot more thp than DW might normally mitigate, but DW also handles save or die effects. A DW party would also see more use out of short rests than the party using THP. The THP party would definitely have fun if the warlock was charging in with AoA active and an ally prepared to refresh them though.
while everything you said in the video was clearly backed up by the text, it still feels not in the spirit of the game. like how they pointed out that some players try to get a bunch of people readying an action to throw a log at 600mph at an enemy. like you said though, play how you want, if thats okay with your table
In polymorph if the temp HP are gone then the spell duration ends. The animal form is dependent on the temp HP... so the Temp HP SHOULD be dependent on the animal form. I know this is not RAW for the powergamer rules lawyers out there... but if you think you should be able to get these temp HP from a glitch/bug in a system then you value gimmicks rather then narrative. If that is your play style and your DM is cool with it then more power to you... but for me and my group shit like that breaks immersion and narrative and is heavily frowned on.
No, you mean you want the temp HP to be gone when the spell duration ends. I want the rules to say weapons juggling is impossible, but much like Insight Check does here, I clearly see that is not what the rules actually say. I want the temp HP to be gone too. I don't claim that's what the rules are saying.
Again, it comes down to common sense and RAI vs RAW. If you enjoy RAW then do it, my tables are RAI and we talk about it at the start of campaigns. If a player comes in with a 'that's not the rules' attitude.. then I messed up as a DM by not communicating that that's not the type of player wanted at the table.
Weapon juggling is stupid btw and just as cheesy as trying to keep temp hp from polymorph after the spell is dismissed. If a player is pushing for these game mechanics I let them know that my table is most likely not for them.
I disagree about THP being instantaneous. I see THP as different from healing/damage bc they have a duration (until depleted or long rest). This is why the concentration rule on duration comes into play and supersede the THP duration rule. In the world tree barbarian example, they needed to specify that the THP go away when rage ends bc the duration of those THP aren’t governed by Concentration.
THP is very different. Gaining THP creates a thing that did not exist where healing and damage are operations that simply change the value of an a value that already exists. Damage does not persist as it's own thing once it has been applied to HP, but as merely the cumulative effect it had on the HP of a creature. I haven't really seen a convincing argument on why THP must and can only be instantaneous in all and every circumstance. To my thinking if a spell creates something that thing is an effect of the spell, but if a spell modifies something, the thing it modified was acted upon instantaneously. Of course in both cases the spell may explicitly state otherwise. Though I definitely need to do more research.
It's EXTREMELY obvious from context cues that *temporary* hitpoints granted by a concentration spell should disappear when the spell ends. Granting temporary hitpoints isn't healing.
Incorrect. The text is very specific that in order to not take THP you have to already have some. Also, it changes nothing of your ability to transform.
@InsightCheck I also give my players the option to choose when they take their subclass-at level 1, 2, or 3-and simply switch the features with the feature of the level from the subclass, if the subclass was originally introduced at a different level in 2014 (for example by the warlock that the features from lvl1 will be received at lvl 3 and instead the Player gets it's subclass at lvl 1) Additionally, I allow my paladins to use Smite once per turn as part of their attack without requiring a separate action. Tbh, I would although allow to mix the class features, when it's balance
All I know is that they really need to spend more time reading what they write and shouldn’t speed run and 1 year aren’t enough time to play test or you know listen to the feedback
That's a very well put video but I'd still argue that the instantaneous effect of temporary hit points is that they reduced the damage you took (the damage went to your temporary hit points instead of your actual hit points). When the concentration ends the instantaneous effect persists (you lost no hit points) but the remaining temporary hit points disappear.
Now you're confusing two instantaneous effects: 1) that something grants you 10 THP 2) that your THP prevents 7 damage. Now you have 3 THP left The spell's instantaneous effect is 1. The instantaneous effect of the temporary hit points themselves is 2 Polymorph clearly needs to specifically state it both ways (second sentence would be the errata): The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left. If any of these Temporary Hit Points remain when the spell ends, they vanish. I suspect these two sentences looked so clunky and kind of blending together. It could well be a case of a well-meaning editor just removing one, thinking they both say the same thing.
***NOTE***
As pointed out in a comment below, if there was a mistake made I believe it was not including a line in Polymorph to specifically say that the THP drops when the spell drops as they did with Life Giving Force.
The problem exists in the spell itself rather than with the rules of concentration or THP in general.
Yes, one hand at WotC removed the language from Temporary Hit Points in general, while the other hand wasn't told to update specific spells to match this change.
Indeed and I think the answer comes down to how your table plays the game and thus the role of the DM. Do you play it as a game where cheesing the rules is half the fun or do are you creating a narratively consistent story where what feels right and doesn't break the fantasy reality is more important than rules text. Both are valid you might want to adopt different approaches for a curse of strahd campaign to a Halloween one shot. It's why we have a DM in the game because otherwise the rules text has to limit the game to defined specific interactions.
Yeah, agreed. It feels like temporary hit points were used to shoe-horn in a solution to a different problem they weren't intended to solve.
“WHILE TRANSFORMED, the target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form.”
It would have been that easy.
While not as explicit as preferred and certainly not RaW I think RaI the line: "The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left." Does a poor job but does the job none the less of linking the Temporary Hit Points explicitly to the form and is solid enough for me to run it as working vice versa.
agree with other examples though especially Heroism. Only thing I would be unsure about is in the case of casting a storm cloud spell if another character has a readied action to attack said caster if they cast a spell and the storm cloud caster is attacked and fails their concentration saving throw, the reaction should interrupt the cast but does the spell end before the instantaneous effect is resolved or not i'm not personally sure.
I imagine polymorphing into a t-rex for 6 seconds will inevitably become a part of the traditional wedding ceremonies people have before they enter a dungeon.
Regardless of what you do at your table, you can't deny how well made this video was.
This is incredibly kind of you and admittedly very satisfying as it was exactly what I was hoping to achieve so thank you :)
Unironically, the introduction is a 10/10. Clear, concise, even humble. Kudos.
Refreshing, even. (I've watched far too many D&D related youtube videos where it's immediately clear the 'tuber has done zero prep before turning on the camera)
I would argue that Polymorph *is* sustaining the temp hp since the spell ends early when you run out of Temp HP.
Even if you disagree and think that RAW you get to keep the temp HP, I would then argue that its clearly not RAI, because if you play that way then Polymorphing someone into a Giant Ape and immediately dropping it gives them 157 temp HP using a 4th lvl slot compared to Power Word Fortify which is 7th level and gives a max of 120 temp HP.
(I know InsightCheck said he won't be playing it that way, which I think was a great addition, but I wanted to call out another rules interaction that makes me think it would still be RAW to remove the temp hp)
I think I could argue otherwise for the same reasoning? I don't have a huge chip in the pile for either direction, but say in theory you already have really good temp HP set up and you get polymorphed (either by someone else or your own actions) into something with low CR and thus normally low HP. Maybe as a solid disguise, but you have temp HP Just In Case. In that instance, you could choose to forsake the temp HP provided by Polymorph in exchange for the higher temp HP you already have and it's just as valid... because your transformation is just linked to the existence of temp HP, not specifically temp HP provided by the transformation.
Edit: I did see someone bring up the description comparing the wording of Mass Polymorph and how it contrasts to this, being that Mass Polymorph actually had wording preventing that sort of issue (though I do think the wording does kind of fail to take into account temp HP you get before the polymorph, while it brings up temp HP that you would get afterwards: overriding Polymorph HP as opposed to Polymorph HP overriding what already existed). In that aspect, it would make sense, especially if that line was an unintentional removal.
Power Word Fortify is 7th level for only 120 thp yes, but the difference here is that those thp can be spread around to multiple creatures, whereas polymorph's are just affecting the one creature you use it on. That is the distinction.
@@supmarioful Considering the spell becomes progressively worse the more you split it, to a point where it is recommended you only ever split to two but preferably just buff one person.... that is not a valid explanation as to why it is 7th level while a 4th lvl slot can achieve its most powerful effect in a better way then.
I mean comparing spells like that isn't always reliable, simply because a lot of spells have very different balance. Spiritual Weapon was always a strictly better version than Mordenkainen's Sword despite showing up 5 levels earlier, and Fireball generally does more damage than other damaging spells above it. The new Conjure Minor Elementals is especially egregious with how powerful it is compared to all other options at high level.
It's a good example for why the ruling would feel bad, but it's a bad example for why the ruling would be unintended or inconsistent.
157 for a 4th level slot vs. 120... to up to six creatures. Adds versatility.
I also wouldn't assume you can glean design intent from spell power. Mordenkainen's Sword or whatever it was called was a 7th level spell no one ever took because it was less effective than substantially lower level spells. Doesn't mean the lower spells were doing more than intended.
Good exploration! It gets even more messy when some Concentration spells like Compelled Duel and Cloud of Daggers don't have "For the duration" or "Until the spell ends", but they are clearly not meant to compel a creature forever or create a damaging cube that lasts forever.
Excellent video. How can WotC fix this? The problem is NOT that temp HP from concentration spells stick around. The problem is specific to Polymorph. They could errata Polymorph to say "when the spell ends, any remaining temporary HPs from this spell vanish".
Pretty much exactly this! Hard agree.
I'm not sure Polymorph is the only problem effect... I would not bet against the possibility WotC repeats this exact same mistake in a future splatbook...
I think one of the issues with the comment thread is that many folks answer with how they will run it and others how it RAW reads without much distinction of which they are saying. That miscommunication leads to a lot of heated arguments so I appreciate that you begun the video with a disclaimer on how you would actually run the game before going into the details.
This was a great breakdown although feel like we need a chart to keep track of it all :D
I think your assessment of the breakdown in the comments is completely accurate. A lot of the nuance is lost there and people are often discussing different things but not realizing it lol!
Yes, this was (for TH-cam at least) incredibly direct and concise. I clicked like!
Almost everyone who explains the RAW won't actually run it RAW. Its the people arguing about the RAI that refuse to admit that the RAW works as we say it does, even though none of us are happy with how it works... and all of us will make THP drop despite it going against the RAW
@@envytee9659 That does confuse me a bit. If no one will use it this way what's even the point of arguing about it? Intellectual autostimulation?
@@20storiesunder It's the RAI people arguing for no reason. The people discussing the RAW are just pointing out the ways the game can be broken, using what is written.
Great analysis. Emphasises one of difficulties of translating imagined, fantasy situations into mechanics. When I answered your poll, I was thinking, “where do the temp HP come from when casting Polymorph? If I transform into an elephant, it’s because I’m big and bulky, so when I stop being that way, they should also stop.” Yet when I heard you break it down as a ‘rule’, I was persuaded by the ‘instantaneous vs sustained’ argument. In other words, it’s complicated. Like you though I’ll continue to rule that temp HP from Polymorph disappear when the spell drops, cos for me, the bulkiness, or lack thereof, has gone, so it just makes sense that way narratively.
@@mystopian I do believe your gut instinct is the correct way of interpreting rules however. It's way more valuable if things make sense within the world rather than paper.
So the players are plot nerfe? Understood.
You covered this really well! I still consider the Temp HP from Polymorph to be limited by Concentration, but that could be just gut instinct and what I think "makes sense". Regardless, you did an excellent job showing both sides in a fair and even way, while still maintaining your own opinion throughout
Much appreciated, that was very much the goal here. I really wanted to emphasize that it is very possible to not agree with something and still show that it might be the “intention”.
I really wish people would understand why we do these deep dives, rules lawyer discussions. No, it's not say this is how one should play, it's about understanding the game and how it actually functions, for you to them apply as you see fit.
For example, the grapple rules. Did you know you can't release a grapple anymore? Sounds stupid, and I would never enforce it... but. Just because I won't play it that way, doesn't mean I'm not aware of how the game actually works.
Hard agree. I LOVE these deep dives. They are genuinely my favourite videos to make and are why I made this channel. And it’s never to tell people how to play or what to think. Game design and analysis is so interesting and expands our thoughts and helps to understand the foundations better!
I think you're right. I think that in general, granting temporary hitpoints is an instantaneous effect. But I also think they just forgot to put in the line about the temporary hitpoints going away when Polymorph ends. And I think that is super clear to anyone who understands the game and thinks for even half a second about how the in-game effects are reflected in the mechanics.
I agree with this. I think the mistake they made came in the Polymorph spell rather than it being an issue with THP or concentration more broadly. Polymorph absolutely should contain language to say that the THP disappears when the spell drops, much like Life Giving Force does!
@@InsightCheck Though this is from the 2014 version, Mass Polymorph from Xanathar's had the right idea in its wording:
"Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour"
"Each target gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the hit points of its new form. These temporary hit points can't be replaced by temporary hit points from another source. A target reverts to its normal form when it has no more temporary hit points or it dies. If the spell ends before then, the creature loses all its temporary hit points and reverts to its normal form."
I do find it interesting they didn't use this for these updated spells.
@Finalplayer14 I’m extremely surprised they didn’t include that too.
Yes, people argue "since the language was removed from THP in general, this effect for Polymorph must be intentional" completely forgetting the mistake could have been elsewhere.
"Task 723: remove language from TPH to clarify granting THP is instantaneous. Also go through every spell and add back in restrictions wherever necessary"
Just because the first part was finished the way they intended does not mean the second part was finished the way they intended (with no errors or omissions).
@@Finalplayer14 THIS!
Oh! Another point I keep meaning to make - I don't think we should read too much into the specific word-by-word *changes* between 2014 and 2024 rules. That is - don't look at the removal or addition of words in a rule and use the *difference* to infer intent. Instead, simply read the 2024 rule in isolation.
Writing styles and conventions can cause a lot of wording changes. Moving to a more exacting text or a more conversational tone can change wording even if the rule is intended to work identically. Look at "knocked prone" vs "gain the prone condition".
A very good point. There was an entire section I was going to get into for this video discussing “having” and “gaining” but opted to not get into it.
I don't think you mentioned that other way to gain THP: wildshape. It certainly reads like my druid gets to keep any remaining THP after dropping wildshape.
You also get to keep the temp HP from an artillerist artificer's Protector piece even when that piece expires at 1 hour.
Yes, the 1d8+mod that doesn't scale from level 3 to 20...
Artificer is such a cool class, but a lot of the features of it and the sub classes are super sub-par.
This whole conversation as to whether or not temporary hit points go away upon the duration of a spell ending I believe is made moot by the fact that the power word fortify spell which is instantaneous and requires no concentration provides up to 120 points of temporary hip points. Does reaffirm the idea that the creation of the temporary hip points is an instantaneous effect and they last until either long rest or their depleted unless stated otherwise. I believe the solution regarding the abuse of the polymorph spells should simply be that the caster of the polymorph spell choosing to end the spell also depletes the temporary hit points.
I don't find the effect of an instantaneous spell which is not subject to concentration rules on the effects of the spell to be convincing regarding temporary HP provided by a concentration spell that is subject to those rules.
Great video, solid analysis
Your analysis looks right to me... RAW, it says they persist, but I think that's bad for the game and overall balance. There are several places where they seemed to have messed up the wording, and caused issues that were not present in 2014.
I don't think this book was done cooking when they released it.
A case where one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g I think it's more an issue of the game designers wanting to do more playtesting, and the C-Suite saying "no, sell book *NOW*"... Even so, they did put out more iterations of UA than they first announced.
@@guamae Unfortunately the new monster stats that are trickling out make it clear that they view it as a intentional positive you can juggle a heavy crossbow, sword and shield, and a greatsword freely in a heinously unrealistic way, when it obviously only makes the game intensely stupid and videogamey :(
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g but it's not a video game. Any rule is only in effect if a given table says it is, and WotC can never change that.
My biggest concern is to have player options relatively balanced against each other, and for player choices to matter. I can tweak encounters however much is necessary until they're balanced to what my party is.
@@guamae Of course!
I'm just lamenting that apparently Crawford & Co have played so many video games they thought it would be a cool good idea to allow martials free reign on applying masteries depite how intensely reality-removed and videogame that makes the game feel like.
In short, no, a feature isn't worth it if it requires a fighter to be able to pull out, use with precision, and tuck away a heavy crossbow and a greataxe in the space of only a couple of seconds. The ONLY place you ever see that happening is cartoons and videogames - but nobody at WotC were there to say "maybe its a really bad idea to sneak this into a mid-edition update...?" :(
I love the video and especially love the analysis of concentration and how some effects of concentration are independent of the concentration itself. I never thought about it in those terms, but always made decisions from that frame of reference.
Amazing! Yeah I really don’t think most people have considered it in these terms.
Excelent video! Keep going your channel is very good, waiting for the ranked 2nd level spells.
Thank you so much! It’ll be coming in the next few weeks :)
Can an instantaneous effect be temporary?
Damn it. I don't want to agree with you, but I think you've convinced me.
I don't think I or any of my DM friends will even for a second entertain the idea that Temporary Hit Points can persist longer than the effect that grants them (unless it lasts indefinitely/is instantaneous). It's clearly a rules oversight and not intended.
Agreed. Im of the opinion temp hp remains until lost. You dont undo the damage of spirit gaurdians when you drop concentration. You wouldnt undo gained temp hp by the same logic.
This is an official change from the 2014 rules to the 2024 rules, yes.
I don't buy it. Temp HP are not merely HP. They are not healing. They are a thing you fundamentally do not have unless granted by a spell, ability, or other such resource. Healing and damage simply change the value of your HP, they don't create something from nothing. *shrug* I'm not saying I'm fully convinced temp HP aren't instantaneous either. I need to look into it more, but I've yet to see a really convincing argument on why all instances of temp HP are inherently an instantaneous effect.
@@MannonMartin says in the rulebook you don't lose temp hp until a long rest
@@MannonMartin Please be aware that you're trying to make sense of an abstract set of rules. This is only a light-hearted and fun rules-lawyery exercise; common sense is only getting in the way ;)
@@bladeRoller Also says the effects of concentration spells end when the spell ends.
I love listening to deep dives.
The other thing that you didn't mention is that DM's can decide how to abjucate this ruling for themselves and their group like you are, not being bound to the rules 1:1.
Deep dives are exactly what I created my channel for, videos like this are truly my favourite to make!
And I actually did mention that! It was right at the end and easy to miss. Don’t have the timestamp but it is there! I think I start it with “Does any of this really matter? No.”
Love these sorts of videos
Changing polymorph from hp to temp hp has also removed the power word kill exploit.
On a side note, I still think 5e would benefit greatly from having a keyword system, that way you could just describe a spell, add a few tags, and reference those tags exact effects in a glossary.
I do like the idea of something being able to dispell instantaneous effects. Perhaps that could be a spell in its own right.
Very well done as always! I really love these sorts of deep dives into rules and rule interactions. I think it’s the designer side of me haha. Now for why I think that even upon a shallower inspection, the rules provide the reason that the Polymorph Temp HP last after the spell ends.
So my argument about why the Temporary Hit Points rule is “more specific” is that the durations and Concentration rules are talking about the game as a whole, and all effects with durations. Temp HP on the other hand specifies what its duration is, meaning that if a spell has a duration and grants Temp HP, and the spell ends the Temp HP rules specify that the Temp HP continue to last, of course unless even more specific rules in a specific spell say otherwise. So to me RAW that alone (due to the fact that Polymorph doesn’t specify otherwise) means that the Temp HP from Polymorph do last after the Concentration on the spell ends. Meaning I agree with you 😂, and I love how you specified that just because you think this is how the rules DO work, it’s not how you think they should or want them to work.
Incredibly happy that that came across as that was truly the goal. I think it’s very important to recognize that it’s very possible to not like or disagree with something and still understand its merit.
Also you raise a good point too, I had to go much deeper for the sake of the video though haha
For Polymorph, those THP should absolutely go away when the spell ends. False Life and Power Word Fortify, since they are an Instantaneous type spell, those THP should remain until a Long Rest, in the way other THP from Inspiring Leader, etc. work.
Also, I've built a Warlock 1/Bard 13 who grabs as many THP granting spells as possible to fuel Armor of Agathys at high levels. With Power Word Fortify, you can give yourself all 120 THP, and then use a 6th level spell slot to cast Armor of Agathys, allowing you to do 30 Cold damage to anything that hits you with a melee attack for as long as those 120 THP remain.
Neat. :)
That's both your highest spell slots though.
And it only works in melee and AoAs effect can be dispelled by a simple lvl 3 dispel magic and a DC16 spellcasting ability check.
In your experience, is it realy worth it to put all those eggs in one basket?
@@Gnarlf now listen here, you let me have my stupid one trick build. 🤣
Honestly, it's not a one trick build. It's a Valor Bard that uses its Charisma for everything important. But that's just a fun interaction that I would definitely blow my highest spell slots on. Although Polymorph, if it does indeed keep any THP after dropping it, is definitely a useful addition, since some of those beasts are very tanky.
@@WolfHreda Oh mate, more power to you.
I'm all for players having fun at my table.
That's the whole point of playing the game.
I was merely curious if you consider it actually a strong option or just a realy fun thing to do. 😉
@Gnarlf just fun, for sure. If I were in a high level one-shot, I'd take it in a heartbeat. In a regular campaign where we might never get that high, I'd probably choose something a bit more versatile in lower tier play.
Very well made video, IC!
Thank you!
If they wanted the temp hp to persist, they should have made polymorph more like the new wild shape where the amount of temp hp is based on the spell level rather than the beast. That way it isn’t 150 temp hp + your own hp pool, but like 10x spell level temp hp + your hit point pool
Once you heal or take damage or fall prone that is a physical interaction that is a result of the spells magical effects. Not magical so not bound to a spells duration.
Temp hp to me has always been a magical effect/shield.
I would rule if the spell provided temp hp and has concentration then the temp hp goes away when concetration is lost, same with the other magical effects listed in the spells description. If it's instantaneous like with AoA then you follow normal temp hp rules.
Now we need you to weigh in on whether you can use 2024 War Caster's slightly different phrasing to create a "hype tunnel" by Opportunity Attacking your fellow party members with buffs as they run by you.
I think the temporary hit points are defined by the creature chosen for morphing, which in turn has a specific duration governed by the spell. I would hold this is probably intended of spells with durations generally, but I can't think of a similar example with mixed temporary hit points and concentration that doesn't have an effect that separately grants hit points, like Heroism.
Rules as written, I'm forced to agree that you can interpret this as an instantaneous effect of an enduring spell. I also think you can understand it as an attachment to that enduring effect itself, meaning that it ends when you stop Concentrating. Rules as intended, I don't think they would have intentionally designed Polymorph to grant so many more single-target hit points than Power Word: Fortify.
Are TEMP HP supposed to be a Buffer protecting the character's actual HP? IF so, there should be detailed information on What creates the buffer so there is a detailed information on what Ends the buffer. I polymorph a target into a Giant Gorilla. Being a Giant Gorilla gives TEMP HP. Ending concentration and turning the target back to normal should also end the TEMP HP. (Target is no longer a Giant Gorilla)
Just my 2 Copper.
There is detailed information on what ends the buffer - either:
1) the buffer is depleted through damage
2) you take a long rest
Simple. Any exceptions are noted in the individual spells and abilities.
(Except where WotC forgot to do so ;-) )
Another good example of how the 2024 edition is leading to Ruling Debates is Divine Intervention. There's a pretty steep debate regarding whether the "As part of the same action" line in Divine Intervention lets the ability override yhe Magic Action rules for casting spells with longer Cast Times.
Yeah and I have touched on this in the past. Maybe I’ll do another deep dive on that at some point lol
For the record, my argument is that since Divine Intervention itself states to use a Magic Action when choosing the Cleric Spell you want to cast, that Magic Action is what is used to Cast the chosen Spell. Thus, the specific rules Magic Action has for spells with longer Cast Times apply.
For the record, the 2014 edition led to ten years of ruling debates, and all that debating has prepared us to analyze the rules with a fine tooth comb and find the problems sooner. On top of that, we haven’t had much or any direct rulings from our lord and savior Jeremy Crawford, I’m sure those will start rolling out after the Monster Manual comes out next year.
An interesting video. I hadn’t thought that much about Temp HP before, and I might just settle on the side of “THP are granted instantaneously and last until depleted/long rest, unless stated otherwise”, at least for 5.24 D&D.
I do agree with Polymorph being the problem; it feels to me like the temp HP from Poly is supposed to represent the new “body” you have taken on. Thus, when the new body’s HP (the temp HP granted) runs out, you revert back to your old form. They just forgot / should have addressed the flip side of “lose THP => lose poly form” which would be “lose poly form => lose THP”.
I don’t agree with your analysis of Vitality of the Tree at 5:20. You say Life-Giving Force allows the barbarian to both gain and distribute THP; that is not correct, as it only concerns distributing THP to others. Vitality Surge is the (sub-)feature that allows the barbarian to gain THP. And the sentence that states the THP vanish at the end of your Rage is in the paragraph for Life-Giving Force, and thus it only applies to that portion. If that was an exception that they wanted to apply to both subfeatures, they likely would have split it off into a separate paragraph. As is, I would feel it either is saying “Your (the barbarian) THP stay after Rage, like normal, but the THP on others goes away as an exception to the rule”, or “Your THP go away at the end of Rage as you’d expect, but we want to remind you that the THP you gave to others will also go away, even though they aren’t losing Rage themselves.”
Remember, also, not all statements of how something works are pointing out an exception; sometimes the designers are just reminding the reader how a rule works, or confirming that the generic rule does still apply in the case being discussed, if people might be expected to imagine an exception that doesn’t actually exist.
First, there is a clear distinction between regular HP affected by damange/healing, and THP, because THP have a general rule for how long they last, while HP have no duration.
My interpretation is that if a spell or ability creates a delayed trigger that happens when THP are gone, then then the duration of that spell or ability is tied to those THP, and is therefore a more specific duration than tbe general duration THP.
This accounts for why something like False Life does not need to specify a duration for THP, and why Vitality of the Tree needs to explicity include clause on them being lost.
We don't have the monster manual yet maybe NPC damage is jacked up to compensate
I don't think you can use that it's a separate paragraph to prove that the line about the temp hp is an ancillary instantaneous effect. If that was the case, then the following paragraphs would also be ancillary instantaneous effects and you would be permanently losing the ability to speak/cast spells and all of your equipment when you use this spell. All 3 paragraphs make reference to the new form the target is taking (which is explicitly limited by the duration), and tie that effect to the form to varying degrees. I don't have my hands on the PHB right now to assess the idea you're presenting as a whole, but I think it's much more likely they are generally removing redundant language in the spell descriptions as much as they can for brevity. They talked extensively about doing just that all throughout WotC's preview videos for these books.
I mean that is hardly the sole basis for my conclusion. It’s but one very small piece of supporting evidence.
@@InsightCheck I mean it's kind of the lynch-pin of the whole argument though. You spend 9 (~6:30-15:30, arguably more) consecutive minutes building up to an argument that spells can have instantaneous effects that do not end when the spell ends, and then apply that to polymorph under a very flimsy premise. The only point you made outside of the spell duration argument was that you can choose to reject the temp hp, which I agree makes the spell stupidly designed, but it doesn't make them an "added bonus." It's much more likely the designer's didn't consider the ability to reject the temp hp, given that it makes the spell completely useless in niche and unintuitive situations, and that they wrote, across 2 sentences in the spell's text, language that ties the temp hp and the beast form together.
I think part of the issue is that most(?) people think of Temp HP like Power Word: Barrier in World of Warcraft, a magical buff. So when the spell ends, the buff ends too. However, THP can't be dispelled, AFAIK (unless the spell states that THP ends when the spell ends). It's hard to rationalize, but THP is like a natural, non-magical 2nd HP pool, created by magic, but not sustained by magic. (How does an extra pool of non-magical toughness make sense in the "real world" though?) So THP not being tied to concentration makes sense, if the THP isn't magical. For Polymorph, they should have added a line that says that the Temp HP goes away when the spell ends, but RAW it looks like it doesn't.
Conceptually, THP makes no sense, but as a combat system, it's a useful mechanic.
Excellent analysis as always 👏
Thank you!!
In Pathfinder 'concentration' is a trait that is rarely affected - saves all this hassle.
Seems like wotc made some sort of a mistake. If DM allows casting Polymorph into Giant Ape, immediately dropping concentration and keeping THP, then 4th level spell is more powerful than a similar 7th level Power Word Fortify cast on a single creature. When you're finally able to cast PWF, you can instead cast Polymorph on entire party using 4th and 5th level slots into some CR10-13 beast with even more HP that is hopefully going to be printed in new MM. I strongly believe Polymorph (and Conjure Minor Elementals) will be in the first errata.
I would not be surprised at all if they are both included in an errata.
I agree 100% it's pretty clear RAW that temp hp dont drop but that they very much should.
1 example of an abuse is casting polymorph on yourself and choosing guant ape for over 150 temp hp then casting Armor of Agathys and choosing to keep the 150. Because of the way the spells are written that is allowed and the Armor will likely last the 1 hour duration. Luckily the damage output scales with the level cast and not the temp hp
I think one argument that will come back often, after the release of the new DMG, is "Is this a good faith reading ?". Is this logical to keep your temporary hp after you drop polymorph or wild shape ? Is this fun ?
I recon its a simple oversight. They probably intended polymorph to work like before. Maybe they updated the spell before they had made a decision to remove the tempHP-duration line from the players handbook. Then when the line was removed in the rules, the spell needed to be updated, but likely missed it because they didnt think of polymorph gave tempHP.
If the Temp HP provided by the Polymorph spell don't go away when the spell ends, then Polymorph, a level 4 spell, is way better than the new Power Word Fortify spell, which is a level 7 spell. If you Polymorph someone into a T-Rex (136 HP), they gain more Temp HP than if they were targeted by PW Fortify (120 THP).
So can a druid that has access to Armor of Agathis cast it and then wildshape granting it the ability until someone knocks them out of wildshape?
Frost bear. Yep. Perfectly legal.
@@MrJerks93 yep, with the only addition, that you are not knocked out of wild shape, once the temp-hp are gone either.
The damage dealt by armor of agathys would stay the same thoug, it would not be increased by the wild shape temp hp.
@@pzalterias5154 yes, I assumed that. Worth mentioning though I guess.
I haven't decided how I will run it, but I agree with you - the RAW is quite clear
Yeah seems obvious to me that THP stay past concentration. I wouldn’t want a player using this as a strategy every combat as it is a little game breaking but once or twice a campaign i could see allowing some stunts with the residual energy left over from time as a giant ape
i think the problem here is that Temp HP is a misnomer treating bestowing Temp HP like healing, when the PHB explicitly calls out that it isn't and is only meant to prevent you from losing HP when you are hit.
I think Temp Armor would be a more fitting name but it only applies when you are hit and AC prevents you from getting hit so there would be that confusion
My problem with temp hp is that it doesn't stack even when gained from different sources, which made sense for simplicity 10 years ago when there was like 2 sources of it, but now it works poorly both mechanically and thematically.
It makes it impossible to minmax, if that's what you mean.
For a rule that clearly states (without exceptions) "only one source, no stacking" must be considered very clean, efficient and simple rules design...
There's a large amount of sources of temporary hp in 5e 24
I have no issue with THP not stacking. If anything it made less sense back when there were fewer sources of it. Now with so many it can be a very easily abuseable if they let it stack.
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Yes, i agree that it is clean, efficient and simple. I am also saying it is limiting.
Minmaxing it, by stacking temp hp on the whole party from, say, inspiring leader, twilight sanctuary, heroism or whatever other spells and features, still wouldn't be very good, and is easily balanced against.
Meanwhile, disallowing different sources to stack is dissatisfying mechanically, since it can lead to one party member's investment into feat, and another's into subclass, and somebody else's into spells, suddenly they are cocblocking each other. These benefits also are destroyed for no good reason if somebody shapeshifts or uses things like agathys.
It is also makes no sense thematically, because of the wide variety of phenomena covered by temp hp all somehow cancelling each other, including such things as "being brave boy", " wearing ablative armor", "healing that we wanted not to work out of combat", "being a kitty cat", "being encased in a block of ice".
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Yes, i agree that it is clean, efficient and simple. I am also saying it is limiting.
Minmaxing it, by stacking temp hp on the whole party from, say, inspiring leader, twilight sanctuary, heroism or whatever other spells and features, still wouldn't be very good, and is easily balanced against.
Meanwhile, disallowing different sources to stack is dissatisfying mechanically, since it can lead to one party member's investment into feat, and another's into subclass, and somebody else's into spells, suddenly they are blocking each other. These benefits also are destroyed for no good reason if somebody shapeshifts or uses things like agathys.
It is also makes no sense thematically, because of the wide variety of phenomena covered by temp hp all somehow cancelling each other, including such things as "being brave boy", " wearing ablative armor", "healing that we wanted not to work out of combat", "being a kitty cat", "being encased in a block of ice".
I kind of like Temporary HP lasting until they are used up (or LR), except in the case of Polymorph. In my (humble and limited view), the temporary HP granted by the spell are there due to the transformation of form, once that form is lost, the temp hp should go away as well. The devs were trying to 'fix' (some of) the problems in the 5.14 polymorph (namely, the fact that you can't really die that easily when transformed), and in so doing they created this little loophole. The spell just needs a clause added that indicates that these temp HP go away when the spell ends (specific overriding general).
I guess this just comes down to me thinking it is a dev oversight in this particular spell, but a strong argument could be made that the devs intended it to work this way. Are there any other cases of temp HP grants that don't really make sense or cause problems like Polymorph? I can't think of any. I mean sure, you can use Power Word Fortify to really juice up someone's Armor of Agathys, but if that is the way you want to spend your high level spell slots, more power to you.
It feels wierd to argue that the temp hp on polymorph isn't related to the duration/ concentration of the spell when the spell explicitly ends when the temp hp is depleted.
Video made total sense to me!
I've gotten a lot of push back via my video here, my video on TT, and discussions in discord about this very thing. As far as I'm concerned, it is currently rules as written, even if it isn't necessarily rules as intended. Until they modify it, that is absolutely how it works.
Amazing video. Big brain stuff
I think the fundamental problem is that temp HP are designed to be something "you" have, while the effects they come from are *always* more like a buff or shield that has the HP.
I think it should be clarified that the temp HP are never actually stats attached to you, just something that gets between you and a source of damage.
This makes them different from dealing damage, healing, or things like the prone condition.
Do temp hp stack? 5e 24 gives out a lot of temporary hit points
Polymorph was always a broken spell that has more uses that any other (except wish). Insane control, Insane buffs, Insane mobility, Insane utility... now the insane defense just got a bit better.
What I think is supposed to happen with polymorph is that your THP is not instantaneous in the way you think. Here's the important part of the spell :
"The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form. The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left."
That ruling sounds like the THP and the beast form's HP is linked. Here's my interpretation of it and I believe it still fits your points in the video.
What you gain isn't an amount of THP. What you gain literally is "a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form". You gain this buff instantaneously, but the amount follows the beast form's HP. Iit is true the other way around as well. The beast form's HP is also equal to the THP as they are linked.
If your player wants to keep the THP from their Armor of Agathys, will you tell them that they can't transform? Of course not. The beast's HP will become equal to the THP he has on him. When it reaches 0, they lose the beast form. At all points, the HP of the beast is equal to the THP.
So when you lose the beast's form, you lose the THP since they are linked. In the case above, the THP was from another source so you wouldn't lose them. But if the source is the beast form's hp and the beast form is gone, that THP goes to 0 since the HP of a non-existing beast form is 0. Technically, that buff you gained is not really remove per se, but since it is tied to the form and that form is gone with the concentration, it indirectly sets the THP the 0 and as a result you lose the buff.
That's what I see when I read the spell and it fits with the points you mentioned in the video. As you said at the start of the video, no matter what the real RAW is, I would still rule that you lose the THP at the end of the concentration because it doesn't make sense to keep the fortitude of a Giant Ape when you're not it anymore.
It's a shame that they didn't make a better job at explaining the mechanics of Polymorph.
Reminds of the old days when magic users straight up healed themselves whenever they used polymorph self
Oh boy! I can’t wait to comment! I already am!
So heres the question, what if you cast polymorph through a glyph of warding? and then what we do is walk into a moonbeam and end the shape change effect on ourselves. do we now revert back to human form without losing our TPH?
8:25 whoa that art is sick!
I'm sure it's been said but the temp hp from polymorph comes with the changed of form so if you change back to normal you lose the temp hp
I mean that’s exactly what this entire video is discussing and based on everything it seems like the intent of the designers was for it to persist beyond the spell duration.
Im glad we both agree that the way it works RAW is not the way we're gonna implement it in our games
And I think it’s so important to be able to disagree with a side but still value its merit!
The example of Heroism relying on the general case of THP being non-cumulative proves that spells are more specific than the THP rules, which strongly suggests that polymorph works as (almost) everybody expects. However, from the number of videos created claiming massively broken mechanics because they haven't read all the related rules, I do wish they'd stuck with the old ways of being clear in each case, instead of relying on people's extremely thorough reading and understanding of intersecting rules...
Temporary Hit Points should remain after the spell or its Concentration ends.
Simple.
Temporary Hit Points can also dispelled by Dispel Magic, or walking into a Anti-Magic Field.
Even Legendary Magic Items are usless in a area of Anti-Magic.
However the Effects of Magic can remain in the ruins of battle.
Temporary Hit Points are not an effect.
Therefore, walking into an Anti-Magic field will shut down your Temporary Hit points due to the fact that magic is Completely shut down, along with your #3 Quarterstaff, in these areas.
They seem way overdone in 2024, tbh.
Hard agree with this.
It eludes me why they even felt the need to change the wording of Polymorph in the first place, but the second paragraph is clearly missing the reverse case that should state, if the spell ends early on the target it loses the gained Temporary Hit Points, because they were clearly linked to the Beast form that the target was polymorphed into. 🦖
No DM in their right mind should let anyone get away with Rules lawyering this nonsense, and declare common sense the winner. It is sad to see, that WotC touched things that didn't need fixing and create new controversies/problems as a result.
@InsightCheck I had such a hard time not to comment on your previous video about this, thank god you made a seperate video to force my hand. 😂Keep it up!👍
I've got mixed feelings here... and I think the only real outlier problem for this is Polymorph. I think it's clear that Wild Shape was intended to leave temps behind after dropping, and as someone who has played a ton of druid over the years that is such a fantastic change - so many times I've been at full hp having just used a Wild Shape and had a teammate do something dumb and suddenly need me to pick them up with a heal. If I'm a team player and drop form, the punishment stings. Now at least I keep the tempies, even if I no longer can maul things.
For almost everything in the game, this rule works fine. The only point where it seems weird is with Polymorph. If they leave it as-is, I mean, it's not the end of the world. Part of the point of the spell was to make someone beefy. On the other hand, it seems weird to cast it, turn into a giant monkey, then drop it immediately and just have the beef left behind. But like you said, it's complicated. And now people might be more willing to Polymorph themselves rather than doing it to someone else and hiding rather than risking the loss of concentration.
if we are really nit-picking polymorph I have a bigger problem.
The sentence reads: "The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form."
Very explicitly the sentence says Beast FORM not the chosen beast. You gain temporary hit points equal to the HP of the Beast FORM.
so how many hp does the Beast FORM have?
well...
"The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration."
So if you are targeted by Polymorph and fail the saving throw YOU become the Beast form. Therefore the Beast FORM's hit points are your hit points.
That means if you target a lvl 20 barbarian with 200hp, and polymorph them into a snail, they gain 200 temp hp because the beast form (aka the barbarian) has 200 hp.
Similarly if you try to polymorph an 1 hp ally into a giant ape to save them from going down, all you did was give them 1 temp hp, as that's how many hit points the beast form has.
very silly. Nit-picking rules can be fun but I agree, we all know how it is supposed to work.
(sorry if this comment is double posted, it didn't seem to appear the first time I posted it)
It seems VERY logical that there should be an Errata here.
I'll be running it with the 2014 ruling until further notice.
I am very much in split personality when it comes to the new rules.
As a player, some things I really like, other things are very disappointing.
Sitting in the DM seat, I find my views to be almost (not completely) the opposite.
Congrats on your 10k plus subscriber count!
Keep up the great content.
Yeah there’s a lot of mixed reactions to a lot of this stuff for sure and it’s understandable. It feels like they missed the opportunity to really fix so many of the holes that existed from 2014. And some have been fixed, but many more have been created.
Thank you very much for the kind words!
Maybe there should be two sets of rules: The Player's Handbook where every ambiguity and unclear corner case is clearly resolved in the players' favor... and the "Dungeon Master's Handbook", with near-identical text except all these cases are resolved the opposite way, in the monsters favor 🙂
I wouldn't allow it at my table. To me it's clear the temp hp should only be around while polymorph is active
Honestly shocked thet wild shape wasn't mentioned in this video st all, but i get why
Yeah it just would have added a whole other layer to an already convoluted discussion lol
I think you muddy the water by calling the effects of a concentration spell instantaneous. That way you sneak in way more than you could otherwise. The effect does not make parts of the spell instantaneous in the sense of an instantaneous spell. It still runs under the concentration rules. That being said, I still agree with your conclusion that the spell is worded poorly.
I’m just saying that there are instantaneous elements to overlapping concentration (continuous) effects.
A lot of 5e rules just don't hold up well under scrutiny. I love thought experiments like this but they always end the same: More confusion and frustration. Probably best to not over-think these things.
Sounds like wildshaping and Polymorphing should replace the player's HP with the animal's HP
To be honest, I genuinely want to be excited about the 2024 rules but it does sometimes feel as though for every thing that they've fixed, they've broken something else! One misplaced word or sentence is all it takes to throw us into confusion! Maybe this is what happens when you lay off huge numbers of your writing and book staff, but we may never know.
Thanks for another great video, really looking forward to your thoughts on the full release of Daggerheart next year!
I fear one of the most obnoxious changes (unlimited weapons juggling) can't be blamed on layoffs. I feel even a single dev would be enough to make this incredibly irritating change.
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g I didn't want to mention the Two Weapon Fighting rules because they fill me with immense disappointment. But yes, I can only speculate as to the cause of such gaffs however I will happily take a potshot at WOTC as I do.
@@petsdinnerYou absolutely need to hold your two weapons **in different hands** to enjoy twf advantages, yep
Come on man, this is what being a DM is all about.
?
I personally never understood why they just didn't drop all the little duration bits and change the entire rule to: temporary hit points do not stack, you keep the highest number when a new source is gained. These temporary hit points remain until you long rest, or they are depleted.
You've just described the entire rule. What you just said is the entire general rule.
(Except this minor issue that you don't have to pick the highest number when a new source is gained, you can pick the lower number if you want)
Then there's specific exceptions for specific abilities. Not having those would make it very tricky to balance stuff. For instance, not including a specific rule that makes the Temporary HP go away when the spell ends would probably make lots of people feel Polymorph is overpowered... ;-)
@user-wm3hu7lo1g what i mean is remove all the individual exceptions and make it one single codified feature.
@@jamesvance1367 Yes, I understood that. That's why I in my reply included "Not having those would make it very tricky to balance stuff."
@user-wm3hu7lo1g see i dont think it would be that bad. Whats the current highest amount of temp hp you can get from a single source?
@@jamesvance1367 157hp from polymorph into a giant ape (couldn't find a beast with more hp on a quick search) By casting a 4th level spell, breaking concentration on anything else you cast previously and then also breaking concentration on polymorph, if you are only interested in the hp.
120hp from power word fortify by casting a 7th level spell on a single creature but keeping concentration on previously cast spells.
Would be the two that spring to mind first. There might be others.
I guess the first question is, is this a problem? Mechanically speaking, in 2014 you took on the hit points of the form your inhabited, and any thing that provided temporary or real hit points to you could help you persist in that form. Now you get a supply of temporary hit points that piles on top of your real hit points. So if you're topped off, you can't get further real healing and any temp hp doesn't stack with what you have.
My players aren't the type to try and exploit rules loopholes, and I don't cotton to such nonsense either so bag of rats type of things have never worked in my games. So I'm not always the best at seeing what the problem is. This reminds me of the changes made to Counter spell in that it's player friendly. If you polymorph someone into a Giant Ape and the spellcaster gets knocked out in the next round you'd loose out on the massive damage, but at least the temp HP would make it feel like a little bit less of a loss for the spell slot.
On the other hand, it's a bit counter-intuitive to the fiction behind the mechanics. If I get temp HP from BEING a giant ape and having the extra mass and muscle, then it doesn't make sense that I'd still be as robust when I'm no longer in that form. I think for my table, I'd probably rule that the temp HP are tied to the form, and only persist as long as you maintain the form that granted them. Not a mechanical consideration really, but just feels better for my table.
You are overthinking, in this case the temporary hit point is part of the form given by polymorph. You lose the form then you lose the hitpoint.
Rule as Written
Rule as Intended
Rule as munchkin weenies twist them to gain OP advantages...
The fundamental problem is that incredibly verbose, lengthy and technical wording is needed to shut down the weenies. That technical war gamer wording will 'turn off' 95% of the player base. So they make the rules approachable, then people try to take advantage of that. Right now, the DM is the bad guy who needs to say no you can't use that interpretation. In 2014 sage advice used to referee this. Not sure what's a 2024 strategy is for either errata or shutting down extreme ratings of rules.
Regardless of the text, it's pretty obvious that's a hit points you gain by being polymorphed into a giant ape go away when you're not a giant ape anymore, irregardless of the exact wording in the spell...
I hate the name “temporary hit points.” I’ve always thought of them as a barrier effect, like a scholar’s Adloquium spell in Final Fantasy 14. Plus it made sense thinking you can’t have temp hp from 2 sources, like a Scholar and Sage can’t stack their barriers in ff14. Even with polymorph HP, I imagine the remaining vitality of the form converting into a residual barrier.
So wait, is Polymorph in 2024 useless then? If you can opt out of Temp HP, then if a creature fails their saving throw they can just opt out if they already have some and they aren't polymorphed?
You can technically only opt out of the THP if you already have some. If they fail the save, they can opt out of taking the beast’s THP and just keep their current set but they would still be transformed.
In addition to it only being opt out when they already have thp, you can still use the spell in the other manner: to provide an ally a massive thp pool
@jb123581 pretty much yeah lol
@@InsightCheck fwiw, using the spell strictly for thp could be compared to using the slot for Death Ward. Both are fourth level spells, both ultimately mitigate damage, and both are only really useful if you are being targeted when used in this manner. You get a lot more thp than DW might normally mitigate, but DW also handles save or die effects. A DW party would also see more use out of short rests than the party using THP.
The THP party would definitely have fun if the warlock was charging in with AoA active and an ally prepared to refresh them though.
@@jb123581 That's the point. You use Polymorph to "top up" an upcasted Armor of Agathys.
Who needs 120 Temp HP using a 7th lvl spell Power Word Fortify and I can just cast and cancel Polymorph using the Giant Ape for 157 temp hp
Ain't no pedantry like D&D pet entry. Always fun.
If it is an accident they will probably fix it with an update to the phb on dnd beyond like they have already done with other mistakes
while everything you said in the video was clearly backed up by the text, it still feels not in the spirit of the game. like how they pointed out that some players try to get a bunch of people readying an action to throw a log at 600mph at an enemy. like you said though, play how you want, if thats okay with your table
In polymorph if the temp HP are gone then the spell duration ends. The animal form is dependent on the temp HP... so the Temp HP SHOULD be dependent on the animal form. I know this is not RAW for the powergamer rules lawyers out there... but if you think you should be able to get these temp HP from a glitch/bug in a system then you value gimmicks rather then narrative. If that is your play style and your DM is cool with it then more power to you... but for me and my group shit like that breaks immersion and narrative and is heavily frowned on.
No, you mean you want the temp HP to be gone when the spell duration ends.
I want the rules to say weapons juggling is impossible, but much like Insight Check does here, I clearly see that is not what the rules actually say.
I want the temp HP to be gone too. I don't claim that's what the rules are saying.
Again, it comes down to common sense and RAI vs RAW. If you enjoy RAW then do it, my tables are RAI and we talk about it at the start of campaigns. If a player comes in with a 'that's not the rules' attitude.. then I messed up as a DM by not communicating that that's not the type of player wanted at the table.
Weapon juggling is stupid btw and just as cheesy as trying to keep temp hp from polymorph after the spell is dismissed. If a player is pushing for these game mechanics I let them know that my table is most likely not for them.
I disagree about THP being instantaneous. I see THP as different from healing/damage bc they have a duration (until depleted or long rest). This is why the concentration rule on duration comes into play and supersede the THP duration rule. In the world tree barbarian example, they needed to specify that the THP go away when rage ends bc the duration of those THP aren’t governed by Concentration.
THP is very different. Gaining THP creates a thing that did not exist where healing and damage are operations that simply change the value of an a value that already exists. Damage does not persist as it's own thing once it has been applied to HP, but as merely the cumulative effect it had on the HP of a creature. I haven't really seen a convincing argument on why THP must and can only be instantaneous in all and every circumstance. To my thinking if a spell creates something that thing is an effect of the spell, but if a spell modifies something, the thing it modified was acted upon instantaneously. Of course in both cases the spell may explicitly state otherwise. Though I definitely need to do more research.
It's EXTREMELY obvious from context cues that *temporary* hitpoints granted by a concentration spell should disappear when the spell ends. Granting temporary hitpoints isn't healing.
so by your theory If a bad guy casts polymorph on you and you have 0 THP you can just say im not going to take the THP and I dont turn into a kitten
Incorrect. The text is very specific that in order to not take THP you have to already have some. Also, it changes nothing of your ability to transform.
Tbh, I will use the old thp rules in my game
Same
@InsightCheck I also give my players the option to choose when they take their subclass-at level 1, 2, or 3-and simply switch the features with the feature of the level from the subclass, if the subclass was originally introduced at a different level in 2014 (for example by the warlock that the features from lvl1 will be received at lvl 3 and instead the Player gets it's subclass at lvl 1) Additionally, I allow my paladins to use Smite once per turn as part of their attack without requiring a separate action. Tbh, I would although allow to mix the class features, when it's balance
All I know is that they really need to spend more time reading what they write and shouldn’t speed run and 1 year aren’t enough time to play test or you know listen to the feedback
100%
Oooh, it's ouT!!!
That's a very well put video but I'd still argue that the instantaneous effect of temporary hit points is that they reduced the damage you took (the damage went to your temporary hit points instead of your actual hit points). When the concentration ends the instantaneous effect persists (you lost no hit points) but the remaining temporary hit points disappear.
Now you're confusing two instantaneous effects:
1) that something grants you 10 THP
2) that your THP prevents 7 damage. Now you have 3 THP left
The spell's instantaneous effect is 1.
The instantaneous effect of the temporary hit points themselves is 2
Polymorph clearly needs to specifically state it both ways (second sentence would be the errata):
The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left.
If any of these Temporary Hit Points remain when the spell ends, they vanish.
I suspect these two sentences looked so clunky and kind of blending together. It could well be a case of a well-meaning editor just removing one, thinking they both say the same thing.