Those can be fun, but are rare to see from racers, which is where we get most of our ideas honestly. I've got some friends who do those nicely. Tough in certain conditions like mud etc., but super cool when done right. Good stuff. -Simon
Wow! That's really interesting. I've been biking 25+ years and it never occurred to me that there was an advantage in a late pre-turn to get the back wheel in the right place to run an inside path. Great tutorial!
I am really glad that series is back. This is by far the best tutorial series I know. (German bike school "Rock my trail" make very good videos, too and they also love cones.) Will you do another video on doing even tighter switchbacks with lifting the back wheel?
We do have one on our online school I believe, but perhaps I can make one while I'm here in the alps. One of our guide/instructors can demonstrate this really well. While it looks super cool and does work, there are very few instances where a radical pre-turn won't get you through. I think I've ridden all the switchbacks in Chamonix valley with the pre-turn. That said, a nose pivot looks super cool and does have its place. I'm just not good at them! Ha! -Simon
Another great one .... I have habit of entering high and wide to open all turns up and this shows clearly, there will come a point when that classic rule stops working as the corner shrinks and sharpens. Although, I'm not a fan of those fiddly switch back hiking trail type things 😅😅
Yeah, our brain WANTS to enter outside, which makes it tricky to navigate. I actually used to tell riders that switchbacks are just a kind of turn where there is no flow. With work, you can learn to flow through some seriously tight turns. I used to just be happy to survive the tight ones but now I actually enjoy them. Ride on Oliver! -Simon
I was trying to implement what you are teaching with the front/rear foot turns. I am right handed/footed and found that it's easier to put weight on my right foot, but harder to put weight on the front foot. So for me to balance things out, it makes sense to put my dominant foot forward to make front foot turns easier. I am not as good at shifting weight to my left foot, so putting it back makes that a little easier.
Fantastic! Thanks for posting. I am curious about using a pivoting rear wheel lift to help offset the f&r wheel paths in the other direction. Essentially, moving the rear wheel so that it tracks outside of the front, as opposed to using a late/tight pre-turn (or scandi flick) to get the front wheel to track outside of the back wheel. I sometimes try to use this pivoting lift approach to insure I do not understeer around more downhill switchbacks. I am not always confident in when to use the rear wheel lift/pivot approach vs late/tight (or scandi flick) approach. Any advice would be appreciated.
Getting a lot of inquiries about this for sure. As I mention above, there are times and places where this can be done, but is very hard in certain conditions (mud, rocks, roots etc). Top rider certainly use both, but use pre-turn far more than pivots. I'm in the land of switchbacks right now in the Alps. As I mention in one of the comments above, I think I can do pretty much all the turns here, and there are some tight ones. One of our guide/instructors is an insane rider - super smooth French talent - he can nose pivot when the entry is somewhat smooth, but uses a pre-turn most of the time. I'll see if I can get some video of him to use for a future video. I'm pretty bad at nose pivots...need to work on those! -Simon
Is there a reason why you want to maximize offset wheel path in tighter turns? Why not just set up wide with both wheels? Don't get me wrong, I am just curious. I never thought that might be beneficial.
It's a great question! If you go and roll your bike as though it's going through a turn and do it with the wheels on the same path, you will see that the minimum radius is actually pretty big, meaning you won't be able to make a tight switchback, at least not without skidding or making a nose pivot. By making a late pre-turn on the inside of the trail, the front wheel tracks on the wide (outside) path and the rear wheel goes on a more inside line. Grab your bike, and take it out in the driveway and you might notice that you can't even turn around in your driveway without an offset wheel path. Modern bikes are super long, which is great, but it means that this is an even more necessary technique than it used to be. Walking your bike through a turn with both techniques (an outside entry and a pre-turn) is a great way to see this super clearly. Hope this helps!! -Simon
That was super illustrative that when Simon moved the pre turn further away, Linea couldn’t turn as tight. Sorry that it seems like a prank, but it was really helpful to see!
@@tjb8841 Yeah, I did it for fun, but ended up making the teaching point better than just saying it! I only moved them a few feet back, but it was enough. I was actually surprised she came so close to making it.
Do you still pre-turn on uphill switchbacks? My trails have a lot of tight, uphill switchbacks with scattered rocks and overall looseness in the switchbacks. It’s quite challenging and you need to supply power to get uphill. I realize you have to pedal now, but does the bike path change going uphill?
I'll make a video, but the concept is very similar. Realizing we need to address climbing more! Stay tuned, but in the meantime give it a try by entering inside and swinging the front wheel to the outside of the turn. We'll add a bit more to that with the video. Thanks for helping us with content direction! -Simon
We'll do a video on this soon, but it's really the same, but with a bit more rear brake in the pre-turn. To scandi, the rider comes in fast and braking hard with both brakes then releases the front brake just before the pre-turn which allows the rear wheel to slide toward the inside of the turn. At that point the rider releases the rear brake and moves into pressuring the turning foot to grab traction and bring the bike through the turn. This allows the rear wheel to get really far inside in the turn to get wheel path offset. This can be really functional when you get it right. In chatting with high level racers, many say they don't use it a lot when racing, since it can be tricky to get right consistently. But...it looks super rad when done right! -Simon
@@Fluidride Thanks. I don't know any riders who use them, only seen them on video and always assumed it was just a very heavy rear brake use. But as you described it, that takes some finesse to get the timing and amount correct on the front and rear brakes use, I'm guessing. Looking forward to the video.
@@Fluidride Was just watching a Vital RAW historic lookback at Charlie Hatton 5 yrs ago. Posted today I think. Go to 0:40 on the clock there to see him take a sharp right hand turn twice in a row. Looks like a Scandi flick but I can't tell. He hops the rear pretty radically to the left after releasing the rear brake, it seems.
@@seanoneil277 Yeah, wow, that's a good one! He does some other cool stuff with his rear wheel before that which is mind blowing - subtle, but so high level. Thanks for sharing Sean!
YES!! Was just sending you a telepathic thank you today in Vallorcine🙂. I need to settle up with you. Hopefully I'll get a chance to meet you while here. I REALLY appreciate the work you did. Both brakes are working well, and the bike is running smooth after your handiwork. Cheers! -Simon
@@DaveSearle Let's do it! You are welcome to join our crew for a day when it works for you. Will be around and riding most days until August 25. I'll get your contact info from Wayne and be in touch.
Hi Linnea and Simon. Is the technique different for very loose, gravely switchbacks or do you just come in with less speed? Also, that clip of you guys riding the Alps was stunning. So beautiful!
Yes, all the same manny. For sure you have to slow up a bit when it's loose and sketchy. Also really important to not let the hips fall back mid turn, as this could unweight the front wheel and cause a washout. And yeah, the Alps...actually typing this surrounded by them. Stunning day here in Chamonix. Hope you can join us for a spin the big hills here someday! -Simon
@@Fluidride Simon -- that thing you mention about hips, it happened to me on yesterday's trail ride, one of the sidehill descents with turns that dip toward the exposure and then go back toward the uphill side. My weight/hips got rearward just as I started the turn... front wheel unweighted and stopped carving back to the right, I lowsided luckily to a stop. Didn't know what happened until reading your comment and thinking about the moment on yesterday's ride. Thanks for the great insights. 👍
@@seanoneil277 So glad our information is resonating. Cool when you have those lightbulb moments. For adults, learning allows us to understand our mistakes as much as helping us not make them! -Simon
For me, I don’t ride with one foot or the other forward. If I had to ride that way, I don’t know which foot would be forward. I ride with my inside foot back and rotating my outside foot down at the apex, if I need the traction. It just seems like I’m able to rotate around the corner better that way. Is that wrong?
Not totally wrong, but could prove awkward when riding really fast with turns happening in rapid succession. It could also be dangerous in really technical terrain to spin your feet around to get in that position. Currently no pro riders that I know of do this. Everything I know comes from the best riders. And, remember that when we pre-turn, we are making two turns, so it could get very complicated with a pre-turn for a switchback as the pre-turn and turn are really directly linked. I'd give what we are teaching a try. Use the same stance you use in technical terrain or when jumping and use that as your base. I hope this helps!! - Simon
@@tjb8841 Great question! Basically it means you want to get your front wheel as high as you can on entry while leaving your rear wheel toward the inside of the turn. Note the red cone in the video. If this were a steeper downhill trail the cone would be at the outside (top) edge of the turn or the 'high mark'. Basically if you can't make a particular turn and end up on the downhill edge (or over it:), you might have made it had you pulled the front wheel 'higher' on entry. You want to give yourself as much room to make the turn as you can. (With the front wheel). Does this make sense? Let me know if you want me to further explain etc. Cheers and thanks for asking this question! -Simon
Thank you for showing the right-foot-forward versions.
Endo-turns on steep, smooth, tight switchbacks changed my riding completely.
Those can be fun, but are rare to see from racers, which is where we get most of our ideas honestly. I've got some friends who do those nicely. Tough in certain conditions like mud etc., but super cool when done right. Good stuff. -Simon
Wow! That's really interesting. I've been biking 25+ years and it never occurred to me that there was an advantage in a late pre-turn to get the back wheel in the right place to run an inside path. Great tutorial!
Took me years to figure this out. Fun to be able to keep learning after lots of time on the bike! Cheers and happy trails. -Simon
I am really glad that series is back. This is by far the best tutorial series I know. (German bike school "Rock my trail" make very good videos, too and they also love cones.)
Will you do another video on doing even tighter switchbacks with lifting the back wheel?
We do have one on our online school I believe, but perhaps I can make one while I'm here in the alps. One of our guide/instructors can demonstrate this really well. While it looks super cool and does work, there are very few instances where a radical pre-turn won't get you through. I think I've ridden all the switchbacks in Chamonix valley with the pre-turn. That said, a nose pivot looks super cool and does have its place. I'm just not good at them! Ha! -Simon
Another great one .... I have habit of entering high and wide to open all turns up and this shows clearly, there will come a point when that classic rule stops working as the corner shrinks and sharpens. Although, I'm not a fan of those fiddly switch back hiking trail type things 😅😅
Yeah, our brain WANTS to enter outside, which makes it tricky to navigate. I actually used to tell riders that switchbacks are just a kind of turn where there is no flow. With work, you can learn to flow through some seriously tight turns. I used to just be happy to survive the tight ones but now I actually enjoy them. Ride on Oliver! -Simon
I started doing this bc of your video before about pre-turning. It works...y'all are awesome!
Wow we love hearing this! Good work getting out there and practicing too!
I was trying to implement what you are teaching with the front/rear foot turns. I am right handed/footed and found that it's easier to put weight on my right foot, but harder to put weight on the front foot. So for me to balance things out, it makes sense to put my dominant foot forward to make front foot turns easier. I am not as good at shifting weight to my left foot, so putting it back makes that a little easier.
SO valuable!!! The pre-turn makes SOOO much more sense to me now!! Thank you!!!
Yeah! Love it when something lands with riders. Keeps me stoked to keep these coming! -Simon
Amazing video as usual! Thanks
Thanks for watching 🥳
solid tips as always, keep up the good work!
Thanks Matt!
That was very helpful! Thanks😊
Another excellent video! Even my wife watched it and she doesn’t even MTB.😅
Awesome! Love that!! Cheers. -Simon
Please do a video about technical climbing. I'm learning lots of great stuff from your channel. My wife and I plan to sign up for a class this fall!
We are on it! Have had a lot of requests for this stay tuned - and see you in class! -Simon
You talked about it briefly, but I’d love a video on the Scandinavian flick- fast, functional and stylish moved
The edit with the swearing would be a fun one! And nice bike, Simon; that's the one I have.
Yeah, nice bike! We had fun that day🙂
Need to cover the uphill turns at Cuss Hollow. Harder when you have to pedal. I spin out sometimes
Good call. Climbing switchbacks is now officially on the list! -Simon
Fantastic! Thanks for posting.
I am curious about using a pivoting rear wheel lift to help offset the f&r wheel paths in the other direction. Essentially, moving the rear wheel so that it tracks outside of the front, as opposed to using a late/tight pre-turn (or scandi flick) to get the front wheel to track outside of the back wheel. I sometimes try to use this pivoting lift approach to insure I do not understeer around more downhill switchbacks.
I am not always confident in when to use the rear wheel lift/pivot approach vs late/tight (or scandi flick) approach. Any advice would be appreciated.
Getting a lot of inquiries about this for sure. As I mention above, there are times and places where this can be done, but is very hard in certain conditions (mud, rocks, roots etc). Top rider certainly use both, but use pre-turn far more than pivots. I'm in the land of switchbacks right now in the Alps. As I mention in one of the comments above, I think I can do pretty much all the turns here, and there are some tight ones. One of our guide/instructors is an insane rider - super smooth French talent - he can nose pivot when the entry is somewhat smooth, but uses a pre-turn most of the time. I'll see if I can get some video of him to use for a future video. I'm pretty bad at nose pivots...need to work on those! -Simon
Is there a reason why you want to maximize offset wheel path in tighter turns?
Why not just set up wide with both wheels?
Don't get me wrong, I am just curious. I never thought that might be beneficial.
It's a great question! If you go and roll your bike as though it's going through a turn and do it with the wheels on the same path, you will see that the minimum radius is actually pretty big, meaning you won't be able to make a tight switchback, at least not without skidding or making a nose pivot. By making a late pre-turn on the inside of the trail, the front wheel tracks on the wide (outside) path and the rear wheel goes on a more inside line. Grab your bike, and take it out in the driveway and you might notice that you can't even turn around in your driveway without an offset wheel path. Modern bikes are super long, which is great, but it means that this is an even more necessary technique than it used to be. Walking your bike through a turn with both techniques (an outside entry and a pre-turn) is a great way to see this super clearly. Hope this helps!! -Simon
That was super illustrative that when Simon moved the pre turn further away, Linea couldn’t turn as tight. Sorry that it seems like a prank, but it was really helpful to see!
@@tjb8841 Yeah, I did it for fun, but ended up making the teaching point better than just saying it! I only moved them a few feet back, but it was enough. I was actually surprised she came so close to making it.
Do you still pre-turn on uphill switchbacks? My trails have a lot of tight, uphill switchbacks with scattered rocks and overall looseness in the switchbacks. It’s quite challenging and you need to supply power to get uphill. I realize you have to pedal now, but does the bike path change going uphill?
I'll make a video, but the concept is very similar. Realizing we need to address climbing more! Stay tuned, but in the meantime give it a try by entering inside and swinging the front wheel to the outside of the turn. We'll add a bit more to that with the video. Thanks for helping us with content direction! -Simon
@@Fluidride Always happy to help and thanks for the always incredible instructional videos!!
Great one Simon. Thanks.
Is a Scandi flick basically achieving the same thing, but working the back wheel instead of setting up the front?
We'll do a video on this soon, but it's really the same, but with a bit more rear brake in the pre-turn. To scandi, the rider comes in fast and braking hard with both brakes then releases the front brake just before the pre-turn which allows the rear wheel to slide toward the inside of the turn. At that point the rider releases the rear brake and moves into pressuring the turning foot to grab traction and bring the bike through the turn. This allows the rear wheel to get really far inside in the turn to get wheel path offset. This can be really functional when you get it right. In chatting with high level racers, many say they don't use it a lot when racing, since it can be tricky to get right consistently. But...it looks super rad when done right! -Simon
@@Fluidride Thanks. I don't know any riders who use them, only seen them on video and always assumed it was just a very heavy rear brake use. But as you described it, that takes some finesse to get the timing and amount correct on the front and rear brakes use, I'm guessing. Looking forward to the video.
@@Fluidride Was just watching a Vital RAW historic lookback at Charlie Hatton 5 yrs ago. Posted today I think. Go to 0:40 on the clock there to see him take a sharp right hand turn twice in a row. Looks like a Scandi flick but I can't tell. He hops the rear pretty radically to the left after releasing the rear brake, it seems.
@@seanoneil277 Yeah, wow, that's a good one! He does some other cool stuff with his rear wheel before that which is mind blowing - subtle, but so high level. Thanks for sharing Sean!
@@Fluidride You're welcome.
Hopefully your TRP brakes feel a bit better on your transition after we worked on it. ;-)
YES!! Was just sending you a telepathic thank you today in Vallorcine🙂. I need to settle up with you. Hopefully I'll get a chance to meet you while here. I REALLY appreciate the work you did. Both brakes are working well, and the bike is running smooth after your handiwork. Cheers! -Simon
@@Fluidride Great to hear it. Maybe we can get out for a ride!
@@DaveSearle Let's do it! You are welcome to join our crew for a day when it works for you. Will be around and riding most days until August 25. I'll get your contact info from Wayne and be in touch.
Hi Linnea and Simon. Is the technique different for very loose, gravely switchbacks or do you just come in with less speed? Also, that clip of you guys riding the Alps was stunning. So beautiful!
Yes, all the same manny. For sure you have to slow up a bit when it's loose and sketchy. Also really important to not let the hips fall back mid turn, as this could unweight the front wheel and cause a washout. And yeah, the Alps...actually typing this surrounded by them. Stunning day here in Chamonix. Hope you can join us for a spin the big hills here someday! -Simon
@@Fluidride Simon -- that thing you mention about hips, it happened to me on yesterday's trail ride, one of the sidehill descents with turns that dip toward the exposure and then go back toward the uphill side. My weight/hips got rearward just as I started the turn... front wheel unweighted and stopped carving back to the right, I lowsided luckily to a stop. Didn't know what happened until reading your comment and thinking about the moment on yesterday's ride. Thanks for the great insights. 👍
@@seanoneil277 So glad our information is resonating. Cool when you have those lightbulb moments. For adults, learning allows us to understand our mistakes as much as helping us not make them! -Simon
For me, I don’t ride with one foot or the other forward. If I had to ride that way, I don’t know which foot would be forward. I ride with my inside foot back and rotating my outside foot down at the apex, if I need the traction. It just seems like I’m able to rotate around the corner better that way. Is that wrong?
Not totally wrong, but could prove awkward when riding really fast with turns happening in rapid succession. It could also be dangerous in really technical terrain to spin your feet around to get in that position. Currently no pro riders that I know of do this. Everything I know comes from the best riders. And, remember that when we pre-turn, we are making two turns, so it could get very complicated with a pre-turn for a switchback as the pre-turn and turn are really directly linked. I'd give what we are teaching a try. Use the same stance you use in technical terrain or when jumping and use that as your base. I hope this helps!! - Simon
How tall is she if you don’t mind me asking? Thanks!
5’3! Simon just makes everyone look extra short lol
Oh, I think I told someone you were 5'5". No wonder I look so tall next to you!
Simon, what o you mean when you say: ‘get your front wheel high’ , or ‘high mark’?
This is awesome! As a tall rider with a very long bike (Stumpy Evo in long and slack setting) this applies to so many turns for me!
@@tjb8841 Great question! Basically it means you want to get your front wheel as high as you can on entry while leaving your rear wheel toward the inside of the turn. Note the red cone in the video. If this were a steeper downhill trail the cone would be at the outside (top) edge of the turn or the 'high mark'. Basically if you can't make a particular turn and end up on the downhill edge (or over it:), you might have made it had you pulled the front wheel 'higher' on entry. You want to give yourself as much room to make the turn as you can. (With the front wheel). Does this make sense? Let me know if you want me to further explain etc. Cheers and thanks for asking this question! -Simon
I'm not an ambiturner