This video really brings out the total cost of trading in perspective. I was mostly trading the NQ futures until a veteran trader asked me to trade the the Micros. I scalp (swing) several tens of ticks at a time so commissions impact me less. IBKR tiered commission structure further helps me. The biggest benefit I have with Micros compared to Eminis is being able to DCA a bit and control risk better.
I'm glad you're getting the message out there. On our desk we only use the micros as a learning tool for new hires. It's better than sim because it's real money but not enough leverage where the traders can hurt themselves (or the firm) before risk controls kick in. I only use micros for testing out a strategy to track realistic fills.
An honet futures trader, love to see it. Thanks, I've been struggling with this same issue. I do great when I take big swings from market lows on the long side in this rising market, but when I get impatient and start trading, it all goes down the drain, even if I'm "breaking even", because it's all a bunch of $1 losses.
Correction: No, this example does not show us that if you are a breakeven trader you are a losing trader. This example shows us that the edge is too small to overcome costs. You need a bigger edge. This has always been the case with scalping, always! It is not the CME or the brokers fault. You can choose different strategies to engage the market and as a result handsomely overcome the impact of costs on your results.
This is an informative video for sure. Defintiely more of a reason to switch to the mini when applicable and not be afraid to consider other assets. I scalp MNQ on the 1 minute and don't consider pressing the button unless I have a target 12.5 handles away. Ofc my average stop loss varies on the day time of day I'm executing.
This is exactly why brokers should offer a scalping package/ fee structure specifically for high frequency trading. Basically you have to trade “x” amount of times a day or week or whatever or even a flat fee for high frequency traders
I'm also on a small account with around the same experience and have found scalping a few ticks in micros mostly unprofitable. Now if I trade in a range bound time I try not to engage unless the rotation is at least a five or six points. And ideally even larger areas between areas of consolidation if they're apparent or I get lucky enough to catch a breakout. For me at least accepting the phrase "sometimes the best trade is the one you didn't take" and trying to deduce structure and trading based on that has helped.
I'll research that other exchange you mentioned. 1 minute set ups kill my account every time. i find that when i trade higher time frame set ups like 15 minutes, i profit pretty good. i just do not take as many trades w 15 min p/day as i do w the 1 min.
Key point is pick your trades carefully. All you need is one good trade a week or a month, and you can double your account. Patiently wait for your set-up no need to rush or FOMO into anything.
what data subscription do I need to trade Futures in IBKR...I am frustraded with IBKR, it only accepts Market Orders for futures...what do I do for it to take my Limit orders?
No market data is needed to trade, only to view real-time data. That would typically be the CME Group of markets. CME, CBOT, NYMEX and COMEX exchanges. Regarding limit orders, these should be working fine.
I started trading MES a few months ago on TD (TOS) but it made no point b[due to fees. So then I started trading just one E mini (ES). I have taken some large losses with ES but7 also had some good gains. The trick if you are a scalper is that you have to trade with a bracket and keep your loss to small size, or you need to trade like Adam Mancini and look for levels to hold the contracts longer. I have spent about 6k in commissions and it’s horrible. Ninja trader and a Tradovate have much better commissions for micros.
Thank you, I didn't know this. It's like rake at a casino. Maybe worth trying another strategy with a smaller account, perhaps options are appealing to you? Or day trading stocks
I personally grew small account in option scalping high momentum moves and didnt trade any low volume and dont play high spread options unless you see high movement the spread will kill u
I only trade in full points and I want to make sure I understand this as it applies to full points. MES is 5.00 per point so if I sell at one point profit that means I clear 4.12, correct?
micros are typically used for swing trading, and E mini are better used for scalping, if you went for a swing trading funded account they usually limit you to swing trade micros, which make sense based on fee's. and risk.
NQ moves ticks in the blink of an eye anytime close to nyse open. I have a hard time imagining making a 2 tick move at that time during the day. I can see this being an issue if you scalp when volume is low and its ranging tighly.
Not bad, a lot of traders are not looking into the "cost of trading" Charts, Data fees, NFA fees AND commissions. However IMO the micros are there so you can have "skin in the game" I know trading simm is nowhere near the same as any size real money. Scalping overall is much harder these days. However you can also get into "trade pools" and that can lower your costs big time. I've been all over and am now more or less happy where I trade
Most people don't have the emotional capital to scalp profitably. Better off trading the bigger moves or swing trading starting out. Saves on fees and is more profitable for most folks.
There are but the issue with those products is most of them can not even come close to the tradability and liquidity in the ES and MES. MES is still fine but it requires going for certain measured moves and understanding the impact that fees are having on your trade result. We did a newer video on it here. th-cam.com/video/jteM6kxw9YY/w-d-xo.html
I scalp the Nq and Es. Cuz 3 ticks is all you need to make money. And I can make money all day long on tiny rotations. I basically.just wait for big moves to happen and wait for it to churn after the move. During the churn I just scalp the range. 10 or 20 times. $300 a day easy. Scalping MNQ is impossible cuz commission kills you. But scalping NQ is bread and butter.
How could not I notice that before? I can see now what you describe. Just trade the ranging chaos after a move. Long on drops short on rises... but it has to be after a move. With a decent risk management this can live. Range bar charts show that well. Thank you Lavender!
@@Tom-ms5ot it's an awesome strategy. definitely not my only one but the most consistent for sure. ;) it's mostly cuz alot of bots are programmed to trade overextensions/bband breaches and alot are programmed to trade continuations on a large move. this influx of bots at the peak/trough of a large move is what causes the ripe conditions for multiple trades from the generated range between these two forces. be careful though....one side usually wins and when they do its usually sharp and fast. don't rely on the range for too long and keep an eye out for when liquidity starts drying up or tilting in favor of a direction.
It is not that they are not worth the time, you just have to understand the ups and downs. I trade US treasuries, they are a decent balance regarding the things mentioned in this video. One thing with those markets is the volatility is less consistent. So sure the relative commission can be lower, but if there’s no opportunity, it won’t matter.
@@VerrilloTrading I agree with your statement !! I was just wondering what future markets are out there with high volumes that I can look at . Thanks mate!
Some trade RTY or YM for slightly lower risk. I find 1-2 contracts is harder than trading 3-5. There's a lot more cash flow techniques you can apply with more contracts.
What do you require, simply a chart? Tradingview is a solid beginner choice for a chart. I don't recommend Tradingview to advanced users. Affiliate link to tradingview www.tradingview.com/how-it-works/?offer_id=10&aff_id=21040
All depends on what you define as scalping. Taking profit after 4 ticks (1pt), yes commissions will eat you. Taking profit after 4-5 pts, I call bullshit, you can be highly profitable
I Have the Same Problem. Small Account and want dayttaiding the MNQ. I know that it is hard with small accounts. But I am Not sure if I do scalping. I try to reach 15$ each Trade (=7.5 points = 30 Ticks) . Fee for roundturn = 1 $. So I dont think this is sclaping. But do you think this is possible to Trade ? Thanks.
Hello same thing happened to me, to my knowledge i was profitable scalping according to me. but at the end of the day i was $148 negative winning higher than 79%. That means i was working for my broker. Totally a waste of time but a good experience learning that that is not the route you want.
More like working for the exchange. I think the brokers also make little on micro contracts, unless they are charging a premium, and they have clients moving a lot of them. Micros are great products you just need to learn their ups and downs.
Been following you now for almost 2 years. Really like your approach and honesty. But I dont understand why don't you trade stocks? I became profitable this year, and imo stocks are the most user friendly instrument of all and can be much less efficient than futures which is what you want...
@@VerrilloTrading So for it to be profitable, Mini's and Micro's, we would need a "minimum" of point movement, scalping aside, for the contract to turn a profit, yes?
I have found scalping to be hard because u cut ur winners early and ur losers late or late to re enter the same trade. Why don't u trade the Es/mes since commission structure much better than nasdaq? does small exchange have liquidity problem? bid ask is wider also, I heard that ibkr futures commission is way higher than other brokers. Especially the micro, Have u researched into that?
As far a I know, IBKR commission fees are better (lower) than AMP's. And AMP is already a discount broker. So I don't think IBKR is the worst broker in terms of fees. Yes, their platform is shitty, but if used only for execution - it is enough. Having said it, even with IBKR's fees - profitably scalping MES, MNQ is very difficult. I'd say, for an average trader, on the distance of several years - almost impossible.
The same here. I stopped trading micros about 6 months ago and it was the same reason. It is might attractive from the beginning but on the long run just it is lose/ lose environment.
your right and wrong . using one contract you do start in the negative for scalping. Scalping requires an 80% win rate at least . also you should not just buy one because of the commissions are so high . a scalpers risk is always greater then the reward so buying a micro will always put you in the negative because of commissions . In a E- Mini contract if you scalp for two ticks your in a positive . the commissions doesn't exceed profit . To equal this you must equal the percentage . One way is to scalp for two points in the micro . another is to buy three contracts . both of these methods equal the commissions . I agree the commissions are to high but they will come down .Watch Al brooks scalping vids 1 through 5 on utube . also watch his vids on risk reward to get a good understanding . to equal commissions they should be just 25 cents . I don't think they will get to that for a while . good vid , good subject .
Been doing alright this year in Treasuries, it's not that scalping is the only problem. The fees with the micros generally do place limitations on the trader.
@@davidh4129 people trade completely wrong, here is a secret: don’t trade the minute candles, trade the daily candles. Keep an eye out for my upcoming website and I will show you
Mention the time you lose when scalping not beeing able to read good books about markets. The best investment with infinite returns you can ever make is investment on yourself.
GOD loves you enough to send HIS only SON to save you and if you repent and turn from your sins and be baptized in THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT. ((if you haven't )
This video really brings out the total cost of trading in perspective.
I was mostly trading the NQ futures until a veteran trader asked me to trade the the Micros. I scalp (swing) several tens of ticks at a time so commissions impact me less. IBKR tiered commission structure further helps me. The biggest benefit I have with Micros compared to Eminis is being able to DCA a bit and control risk better.
Agreed, thank you for sharing.
I'm glad you're getting the message out there.
On our desk we only use the micros as a learning tool for new hires. It's better than sim because it's real money but not enough leverage where the traders can hurt themselves (or the firm) before risk controls kick in.
I only use micros for testing out a strategy to track realistic fills.
An honet futures trader, love to see it. Thanks, I've been struggling with this same issue. I do great when I take big swings from market lows on the long side in this rising market, but when I get impatient and start trading, it all goes down the drain, even if I'm "breaking even", because it's all a bunch of $1 losses.
Correction: No, this example does not show us that if you are a breakeven trader you are a losing trader.
This example shows us that the edge is too small to overcome costs. You need a bigger edge. This has always been the case with scalping, always! It is not the CME or the brokers fault. You can choose different strategies to engage the market and as a result handsomely overcome the impact of costs on your results.
Get your edge for ust $99.95/mo!
This is an informative video for sure. Defintiely more of a reason to switch to the mini when applicable and not be afraid to consider other assets. I scalp MNQ on the 1 minute and don't consider pressing the button unless I have a target 12.5 handles away. Ofc my average stop loss varies on the day time of day I'm executing.
Glad you found it interesting, keep it up!
This is exactly why brokers should offer a scalping package/ fee structure specifically for high frequency trading. Basically you have to trade “x” amount of times a day or week or whatever or even a flat fee for high frequency traders
Yeah it's a good idea. I'm sure they have offered it but the environment has changed. I guess it depends on the customers the broker is working with.
I'm also on a small account with around the same experience and have found scalping a few ticks in micros mostly unprofitable. Now if I trade in a range bound time I try not to engage unless the rotation is at least a five or six points. And ideally even larger areas between areas of consolidation if they're apparent or I get lucky enough to catch a breakout. For me at least accepting the phrase "sometimes the best trade is the one you didn't take" and trying to deduce structure and trading based on that has helped.
Nice work. While I knew this had an impact I never ran the math. Thanks!
Glad to help!
I'll research that other exchange you mentioned. 1 minute set ups kill my account every time. i find that when i trade higher time frame set ups like 15 minutes, i profit pretty good. i just do not take as many trades w 15 min p/day as i do w the 1 min.
Small Exchange was acquired by IG group some time ago, I don't think these products still trade.
This is exactly what ive been thinking. Thank you for putting it in this video!
Glad to help! It's an older video so keep that in mind. I was in a learning stage trading micros at this time.
It takes a very special person to be a master scalper. Zoom out and look at the daily and you’ll do a lot better
It takes a special human to trade cause humans are bad at trading by default
@@VerrilloTrading very true man!
Key point is pick your trades carefully. All you need is one good trade a week or a month, and you can double your account. Patiently wait for your set-up no need to rush or FOMO into anything.
I agree with this now thank you.
what data subscription do I need to trade Futures in IBKR...I am frustraded with IBKR, it only accepts Market Orders for futures...what do I do for it to take my Limit orders?
No market data is needed to trade, only to view real-time data. That would typically be the CME Group of markets. CME, CBOT, NYMEX and COMEX exchanges. Regarding limit orders, these should be working fine.
It's very important to understand the products you plan to trade...
excellent Video Chris, hope this gets many views! maybe the most crucial topic for every small account scalper/future index trader...
Thanks a lot Breeze! 👊
I started trading MES a few months ago on TD (TOS) but it made no point b[due to fees. So then I started trading just one E mini (ES). I have taken some large losses with ES but7 also had some good gains. The trick if you are a scalper is that you have to trade with a bracket and keep your loss to small size, or you need to trade like Adam Mancini and look for levels to hold the contracts longer. I have spent about 6k in commissions and it’s horrible. Ninja trader and a Tradovate have much better commissions for micros.
Thank you, I didn't know this. It's like rake at a casino. Maybe worth trying another strategy with a smaller account, perhaps options are appealing to you? Or day trading stocks
what FUTURES broker can I use in Canada (Alberta) ?
You can try a discount broker like Ironbeam or EdgeClear or AMP. I opened accounts with AMP and Ironbeam from Quebec.
I personally grew small account in option scalping high momentum moves and didnt trade any low volume and dont play high spread options unless you see high movement the spread will kill u
Thanks for sharing
thank you all your vidos is very helpful
You are welcome!
How much money do you need in order to Futures contracts on Ironbeam?
The day trade margins are typically around 10% of the exchange margin. This may be different for you, I am only sharing what I have.
Scalp for like 3 ticks on the ES and like u said 4x as much on NASDAQ 12-20 ticks.
I am living proof that you are doing an amazing job thanks a lot ☝☝
Thank you and rock on!
I only trade in full points and I want to make sure I understand this as it applies to full points. MES is 5.00 per point so if I sell at one point profit that means I clear 4.12, correct?
Yes.
@@VerrilloTrading then why are people scalping under one point. MES and MNQ move so fast that making one point is super simple
@@andreaelizabeth5494 to not loose more
@@andreaelizabeth5494 It's much easier to predict where the market will be in the next 1-3 ticks, as opposed to 4 ticks+.
Most helpful content and very clearly explained. Thank you very much and I hope your were able become profitable.
Thank you!
micros are typically used for swing trading, and E mini are better used for scalping, if you went for a swing trading funded account they usually limit you to swing trade micros, which make sense based on fee's. and risk.
Agreed, micros are nice for bigger position plays.
can you make a video breaking down the price structure and how to get hard to borrow stocks to short on IBRK?
I'll keep you posted on that!
NQ moves ticks in the blink of an eye anytime close to nyse open. I have a hard time imagining making a 2 tick move at that time during the day. I can see this being an issue if you scalp when volume is low and its ranging tighly.
I think one major issue with equity indices is that the liquidity on the book is not enough for the volume going through at certain times.
Not bad, a lot of traders are not looking into the "cost of trading" Charts, Data fees, NFA fees AND commissions. However IMO the micros are there so you can have "skin in the game" I know trading simm is nowhere near the same as any size real money. Scalping overall is much harder these days. However you can also get into "trade pools" and that can lower your costs big time. I've been all over and am now more or less happy where I trade
Thanks for sharing!
Joseph Helminiak , can you recommend a trade pool?
Most people don't have the emotional capital to scalp profitably. Better off trading the bigger moves or swing trading starting out. Saves on fees and is more profitable for most folks.
Thanks for sharing.
SO so so so sooooo TRUE!!
Glad you got value out of it!
TD’s commission on micros is 1.75 plus fees each way. Crazy.
Rip off like most things with the name TD in it.
Ninja Trader’s lifetime commissions and fees round trip is $1.22 on MNQ.
is there a substitute for MES with a more favorable commission structure for a small account (1000$)
There are but the issue with those products is most of them can not even come close to the tradability and liquidity in the ES and MES. MES is still fine but it requires going for certain measured moves and understanding the impact that fees are having on your trade result. We did a newer video on it here. th-cam.com/video/jteM6kxw9YY/w-d-xo.html
@@VerrilloTrading thanks , ill check it out!
Please talk about spot gamma! I use them and like em
Never used em sir, thanks for sharing
Thank you...lots of info for new traders👍
Glad it was helpful!
I scalp the Nq and Es. Cuz 3 ticks is all you need to make money. And I can make money all day long on tiny rotations. I basically.just wait for big moves to happen and wait for it to churn after the move. During the churn I just scalp the range. 10 or 20 times. $300 a day easy. Scalping MNQ is impossible cuz commission kills you. But scalping NQ is bread and butter.
One woman's bread is another man's lost bread.
@@VerrilloTrading haha very fair
Where did you learn to trade futures?
How could not I notice that before? I can see now what you describe. Just trade the ranging chaos after a move. Long on drops short on rises... but it has to be after a move. With a decent risk management this can live. Range bar charts show that well. Thank you Lavender!
@@Tom-ms5ot it's an awesome strategy. definitely not my only one but the most consistent for sure. ;)
it's mostly cuz alot of bots are programmed to trade overextensions/bband breaches and alot are programmed to trade continuations on a large move. this influx of bots at the peak/trough of a large move is what causes the ripe conditions for multiple trades from the generated range between these two forces.
be careful though....one side usually wins and when they do its usually sharp and fast. don't rely on the range for too long and keep an eye out for when liquidity starts drying up or tilting in favor of a direction.
So what would be a good market to scalp at if micro and mini not worth the time??
It is not that they are not worth the time, you just have to understand the ups and downs. I trade US treasuries, they are a decent balance regarding the things mentioned in this video. One thing with those markets is the volatility is less consistent. So sure the relative commission can be lower, but if there’s no opportunity, it won’t matter.
@@VerrilloTrading I agree with your statement !! I was just wondering what future markets are out there with high volumes that I can look at . Thanks mate!
I appreciate your opinion.
Glad it helps!
Could just trade RTY moves about 1/2 of the ES.
Good point!
Yes, there is a solution trade ES and NQ with 1-2 contracts. No way around.
Some trade RTY or YM for slightly lower risk. I find 1-2 contracts is harder than trading 3-5. There's a lot more cash flow techniques you can apply with more contracts.
Hi can you tell me what is best platform for beginners i made (ibkr) and its advance for me and I stopped in transfer money 😅
What do you require, simply a chart? Tradingview is a solid beginner choice for a chart. I don't recommend Tradingview to advanced users. Affiliate link to tradingview www.tradingview.com/how-it-works/?offer_id=10&aff_id=21040
All depends on what you define as scalping. Taking profit after 4 ticks (1pt), yes commissions will eat you. Taking profit after 4-5 pts, I call bullshit, you can be highly profitable
Indeed.
I Have the Same Problem. Small Account and want dayttaiding the MNQ. I know that it is hard with small accounts. But I am Not sure if I do scalping. I try to reach 15$ each Trade (=7.5 points = 30 Ticks) . Fee for roundturn = 1 $. So I dont think this is sclaping. But do you think this is possible to Trade ? Thanks.
Hello same thing happened to me, to my knowledge i was profitable scalping according to me. but at the end of the day i was $148 negative winning higher than 79%. That means i was working for my broker. Totally a waste of time but a good experience learning that that is not the route you want.
More like working for the exchange. I think the brokers also make little on micro contracts, unless they are charging a premium, and they have clients moving a lot of them. Micros are great products you just need to learn their ups and downs.
That scanner teaser though
Got you going didn't I XD
How can you trade for 1 tick if it cost you 2 ticks (entry and exit) for each trades (spreads)?
Because in futures you are not obligated to pay a spread like with cfd’s. You can use limit orders.
Been following you now for almost 2 years. Really like your approach and honesty.
But I dont understand why don't you trade stocks? I became profitable this year, and imo stocks are the most user friendly instrument of all and can be much less efficient than futures which is what you want...
Stonks are good if you can keep up with what's hot, I keep an eye on them. Thanks!
Glad I found this video,
I'm glad you found it!
@@VerrilloTrading So for it to be profitable, Mini's and Micro's, we would need a "minimum" of point movement, scalping aside, for the contract to turn a profit, yes?
Nice video and good info. You need to switch to a cheaper broker for sure or just trade on contract of ES.
Glad it helps.
Great info
Glad it helps!
If youre scalping 2 to 4 ticks you need to revisit your strategy
That is largely dependent on the market being traded, thanks still!
easy, you don't scalp a few ticks. Done
I couldn't imagine scalping just a couple of ticks. I only trade/scalp in full points.
I have found scalping to be hard because u cut ur winners early and ur losers late or late to re enter the same trade. Why don't u trade the Es/mes since commission structure much better than nasdaq? does small exchange have liquidity problem? bid ask is wider
also, I heard that ibkr futures commission is way higher than other brokers. Especially the micro, Have u researched into that?
As far a I know, IBKR commission fees are better (lower) than AMP's. And AMP is already a discount broker. So I don't think IBKR is the worst broker in terms of fees. Yes, their platform is shitty, but if used only for execution - it is enough. Having said it, even with IBKR's fees - profitably scalping MES, MNQ is very difficult. I'd say, for an average trader, on the distance of several years - almost impossible.
The same here. I stopped trading micros about 6 months ago and it was the same reason. It is might attractive from the beginning but on the long run just it is lose/ lose environment.
A negative sum game. IB's fees aren't that bad @M J, their margins are actually the right ones.
your right and wrong . using one contract you do start in the negative for scalping. Scalping requires an 80% win rate at least . also you should not just buy one because of the commissions are so high . a scalpers risk is always greater then the reward so buying a micro will always put you in the negative because of commissions . In a E- Mini contract if you scalp for two ticks your in a positive . the commissions doesn't exceed profit . To equal this you must equal the percentage . One way is to scalp for two points in the micro . another is to buy three contracts . both of these methods equal the commissions . I agree the commissions are to high but they will come down .Watch Al brooks scalping vids 1 through 5 on utube . also watch his vids on risk reward to get a good understanding . to equal commissions they should be just 25 cents . I don't think they will get to that for a while . good vid , good subject .
AMP commission is 0.98$ now,...
Good to know.
your really complaining about 2 ticks..... thats absolutley nothing...
Depends on the tick size!
CME is not made for scalping, you are trading totally wrong
Been doing alright this year in Treasuries, it's not that scalping is the only problem. The fees with the micros generally do place limitations on the trader.
Hedging. That is mostly what they are very good for.
@@davidh4129 people trade completely wrong, here is a secret: don’t trade the minute candles, trade the daily candles. Keep an eye out for my upcoming website and I will show you
scalping the futures is a losing game. there exists better strategies than give your money as a present to the brokers.
Some might agree
Mention the time you lose when scalping not beeing able to read good books about markets. The best investment with infinite returns you can ever make is investment on yourself.
You need to stop scalping and look for A SETUPS 20 TICKS OR MORE profit👍
100%
I disagree MCL MES, MYM are money makers
Some might agree
I use micros for swings, but for scalping it is a nightmare.
@@cameronh8745 I am curious to know, if I hold for 7 minutes am I now considered a swing trader?
GOD loves you enough to send HIS only SON to save you and if you repent and turn from your sins and be baptized in THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT. ((if you haven't )
Thank you.
I get your logic but disagree with your thinking.
No problem, the video is a bit dated and I've learned a lot since then.