Hey Graceless..keep up the Malazan Lore! I am on House of Chains right now and I am fully sucked in. Love the content but keep it coming. There are no good LORE channels on Malazan world. If you can find the time. You have earned a subscriber in me
This is a great question! I was being a little vague and trying to compare it to D&D with a mortal and celestial realm, but that's not really a great comparison. A mortal realm is really just a warren or place that mortals have easy access too. Most Gods either hang out in their aspected Warren or their own personal one to be safe. They're still able to affect the regular world vaguely or using human pawns, but are mostly safe. If they were to physically manifest around mortals, they can be killed relatively easily, though they are still powerful. It's a nice point of the Malazan world that even powerful being can be killed in the right circumstances. Does this make sense or do you have more questions?
@@SpectrumDT It's simplified a bit since I didn't want to spoil anything. Sources include conversations with Paran in GotM, actions centering around a specific god in DHG, conversations between gods in tBH, more with Paran in MoI, theres more information interspersed throughout the rest of the series. Also several interviews with Erikson himself as he gives his own vague answers to the nature of godhood haha. If you want I can try finding some links for them again
*Spoilers* Well, the Azathanai are a separate race, yes. While all of them that we know of are Elder Gods, and all Elder gods are Azathanai. This video is also supposed to be relatively none spoilery and focusing mostly on the main series :)
Whoops that's actually not true either, as there are quite a few Azathanai that aren't even considered gods. It's just a distinction in terminology, really.
Spoiler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I would use bridgeburnes as example of multiple paths to ascendancy. They whole as group did ascend because of their legend transformed into mystical song. I don't remember who's song, I think it was soul traveler or something, but I read translation, so... I remember, that there was said that theirs songs are pretty sure way to ascend and because they are pretty famous and it wasn't some super knowledge person who knew about it, I would say, it's another important path. At same time, there is probably some conditions for creation of songs and it's fulfilling, so they can just ascend anyone. Their leader became God of wisdom and war for some barbarians clans called Iron prophet (I think) that did affect his look later. They as group taken over gate of death and were called usurpers of throne of death (Again, I think, some time, and different language). They shows this ascended status after their death, but while being ascendent is only for death, for those Godly in nature (at least new gods) seems to need to get rid off their mortal body one way or another. Another interesting case is that fall snake goddess. She was originally old God (it was told little indirectly) but adapted to be new God. Them whole serie happened and her worshipers decide to side with wrong side (and they could affect her) so she decided to kill them all and basically use them as one big blood sacrifice to strength herself up before she went into that chaos(at least, I understand it that way) . So she went from old God to new God to back to be old God!
I think like Ganoes hinted, the difference between Gods and Ascendants is worshippers. Rake has worshippers among the Bluerose, I actually consider him a God ... Especially since he is more powerful than all the gods
I don't think Rake is actually the strongest ascendant or god. He's powerful though...some like Mael, Krul, and the Jaghut Tyrant god could overpower him. Also I think the difference between ascendants and gods is that the former do not accept their worship or take the power given by their worshipers. Think of Rake as an ascendant and Amanas and The Rope as (new gods). Rake denies his worshipers and thus does not fully become a god while the Amanas and the Rope were worshiped even before they sat on the Shadow throne so they accepted the worship and became gods. Other examples of ascendants becoming gods were Fener, Trake, the five faces on the Rock, and Osseric. Rake denied his worshipers and did not become a god but is still strong in his own right and so can kill some gods.
This is meant to be an introductory video to new readers, so I didn't think that info was important to discuss. Secondly it raises questions since Rake specifically denies the worship, which does have an effect on if he is a god or not. We see a similar situation with Dassembrae and Dassem Ultor being two separate manifestations. Dassembrae is a god for sure, but is Dassem? They exist separately, and Dassem doesn't show any actual powers of a god, so there is definitely a distinction. I would wager that the Blackwing Lord doesn't actually apply to Rake, but that just boils down to personal opinion and how you apply the agrument. Definitely an interesting conversation to be had at least
@@gracelesspassion1750 the black win lord does apply to Rake, all the blue rose tiste ande, speak of both as one, the whole reason Clip went to confront him,.... As far as Dassem and Disembre, well it's not a fact that that is Dassem, cause Dassem was born and " died" when he was young, he grew up as a mortal would, but like others Dassem is a ascendant..
@@ralphieaguirre I'd still disagree, since Rake denies the worshippers but there's no way to know how much that effects the relationship. I'm not saying the Blackwing Lord doens't refer to Rake, I'm saying I don't believe it makes him a god. Maybe there's not enough Bluerose worshippers to force it? Just a handful of people saying someone is a god doesn't have an actual effect after all. The cult of Dassembrae explicitly refers to Dassem as the Lord of Tragedy, that's why they show up in TtH. Using your own argument, that means Dassem would be a god. That's not what we see in the books though, so there has to be a reason, we just don't know. Without evidence, I can't say Rake is a god for sure. It's an interesting discussion that raises lots of questions, just none that I have a satisfactory answer to.
@@gracelesspassion1750 thank you for your response, I have read the books numerous times, in the ICE books Dassem is Hoods Mortal sword, so how is he Dessembre? Your saying that the god Dessembre is Hoods "Mortal" sword? The key word "Mortal" which implies not a god, also I have to go back and do my research but I do recall Dassem denying the cult of Dessembre as in being offord that godship implying he is not Dessembre,..I will get back to you on this .. as far as Rake it's a fact he is a ascendant, yes not all ascendants are gods due to having or not having worshippers...that's a thin argument, so does a god stop being a god when he no longer has worshippers?or does a god stop being a god b/c they deny there worshippers, answer to both is no, kurul lost all worshippers he is still a god, Mother dark turned away from her worshippers she is still a god. Anomander Rake is the Blacknwing Lord, wether he embraces his worshippers or not, he is a ascendant with worshippers which makes him a god, also Dassem ultor is a ascendant or on the verge of acendency, .he is a mortal and always has been.
@@ralphieaguirre In the ICE books he is Hood's mortal sword, there is a long period of time between the PtA books and the MBotF books. In that time Hood betrays Dassem, and Dassem becomes the Lord of Tragedy. Dassembrae is a very new god, who is Dassem. While at the same time, is not Dassem. There is a different plane of existance for Gods, as we see in DoD and tCG, which is why the discussion and distinction is weird lol. There is a lot of overlap between the terms God and Ascendant, and it all depends on where you personally draw the line. You think a god is just an Ascendant with worshippers, I disagree. There is clearly a relationship with those worshippers and it DOES matter if you accept them or not, we just don't know how much. The argument is thin whether you are trying to prove or disprove if Rake is a god, which is why I refuse to make absolute statements. I'm not saying he isn't a god for sure, I'm saying it's impossible to know with certainty given how I understand Gods work in the series. Does a god stop being a god if he has no worshippers? There are plenty of examples that this is true. All of the names the Mael keeps track of (That Brys then has knowledge of) stopped EXISTING when know one remembers their name. K'rul disappeared from existence for a very long time, until blood touches his altar in the beginning of GotM. Mother Dark turned away from her people, but she didn't deny their worship. She was clearly a god at one point, but no longer has that power in TtH. I appreciate the talk :) We just have different ideas about gods. I believe there is more to being a god than just an ascendant having worshippers, you don't, which is completely fine.
Oh yes, there definitely is a good argument to be made there! That would require a discussion around a few extra topics, and the question of rejecting your worshippers. **Spoilers Main 10** Take Dassembrae for instance, because of his denial of worshippers there are actuall two separate manifestations of himself. Dassem Ultor and Dassembrae are separate entities, but are affected by one another. It gets into a grey area between a god or an ascendant :)
Just a couple of things you got wrong.. Rake is a god. He is worshiped in place of mother dark. Also he dies in a dual so he is not the strongest ascendant. Quick Ben is by far the strongest Malasan mage. No question.
Rake died purposefully in that duel he'd have taken the fight with Dussem Ultor given that he's ranked seventh among the fighter tribe (can't remember their name)....Edit*..Seguleh
Rake died purposefully in that duel he'd have taken the fight with Dussem Ultor given that he's ranked seventh among the fighter tribe (can't remember their name).
That's how I read it in my head, and how the audiobooks say it lol. I now know it's not how the author wanted it pronounced but it's hard to change that after nearly two decades of saying it one way
Hey Graceless..keep up the Malazan Lore! I am on House of Chains right now and I am fully sucked in. Love the content but keep it coming. There are no good LORE channels on Malazan world. If you can find the time. You have earned a subscriber in me
Would love to see even more content here! Breakdown of each House!
I remember being so confused about what anascendant is in the beginning! You explained it really well! :)
I'm really enjoying all your videos. Thank you so much for the hard work!
Thank you for the support!
Really helpful, thanks. Just rereading the series for the second time, having more time to ponder these things
the parallels between malazan and gurps systems is very apt since that is how the world started
Just started the series and this is so well explained
Thank you! Really glad you liked it :)
Great explanation
So these gods are like the ori from stargate?
You say that gods can be killed if they come to the mortal realm. What is the "mortal realm", and which other realms are not mortal?
This is a great question! I was being a little vague and trying to compare it to D&D with a mortal and celestial realm, but that's not really a great comparison. A mortal realm is really just a warren or place that mortals have easy access too. Most Gods either hang out in their aspected Warren or their own personal one to be safe. They're still able to affect the regular world vaguely or using human pawns, but are mostly safe. If they were to physically manifest around mortals, they can be killed relatively easily, though they are still powerful.
It's a nice point of the Malazan world that even powerful being can be killed in the right circumstances. Does this make sense or do you have more questions?
@@gracelesspassion1750 : Thanks. What do you base this on? Can you cite passages in the books that support this interpretation?
@@SpectrumDT It's simplified a bit since I didn't want to spoil anything. Sources include conversations with Paran in GotM, actions centering around a specific god in DHG, conversations between gods in tBH, more with Paran in MoI, theres more information interspersed throughout the rest of the series.
Also several interviews with Erikson himself as he gives his own vague answers to the nature of godhood haha. If you want I can try finding some links for them again
Isn't it also important that those trying to achieve ascendancy won't achieve it. (with a few exceptions)
The elder gods are a seperate race.. did you read the kharkanas books?
*Spoilers*
Well, the Azathanai are a separate race, yes. While all of them that we know of are Elder Gods, and all Elder gods are Azathanai. This video is also supposed to be relatively none spoilery and focusing mostly on the main series :)
Whoops that's actually not true either, as there are quite a few Azathanai that aren't even considered gods. It's just a distinction in terminology, really.
Spoiler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I would use bridgeburnes as example of multiple paths to ascendancy. They whole as group did ascend because of their legend transformed into mystical song. I don't remember who's song, I think it was soul traveler or something, but I read translation, so... I remember, that there was said that theirs songs are pretty sure way to ascend and because they are pretty famous and it wasn't some super knowledge person who knew about it, I would say, it's another important path. At same time, there is probably some conditions for creation of songs and it's fulfilling, so they can just ascend anyone. Their leader became God of wisdom and war for some barbarians clans called Iron prophet (I think) that did affect his look later. They as group taken over gate of death and were called usurpers of throne of death (Again, I think, some time, and different language). They shows this ascended status after their death, but while being ascendent is only for death, for those Godly in nature (at least new gods) seems to need to get rid off their mortal body one way or another.
Another interesting case is that fall snake goddess. She was originally old God (it was told little indirectly) but adapted to be new God. Them whole serie happened and her worshipers decide to side with wrong side (and they could affect her) so she decided to kill them all and basically use them as one big blood sacrifice to strength herself up before she went into that chaos(at least, I understand it that way) . So she went from old God to new God to back to be old God!
I think like Ganoes hinted, the difference between Gods and Ascendants is worshippers. Rake has worshippers among the Bluerose, I actually consider him a God ... Especially since he is more powerful than all the gods
I don't think Rake is actually the strongest ascendant or god. He's powerful though...some like Mael, Krul, and the Jaghut Tyrant god could overpower him. Also I think the difference between ascendants and gods is that the former do not accept their worship or take the power given by their worshipers. Think of Rake as an ascendant and Amanas and The Rope as (new gods). Rake denies his worshipers and thus does not fully become a god while the Amanas and the Rope were worshiped even before they sat on the Shadow throne so they accepted the worship and became gods. Other examples of ascendants becoming gods were Fener, Trake, the five faces on the Rock, and Osseric. Rake denied his worshipers and did not become a god but is still strong in his own right and so can kill some gods.
You said Rake is a powerful acsendant most compatible to a god, he is a god, he is worshipped as the blackwing lord
This is meant to be an introductory video to new readers, so I didn't think that info was important to discuss. Secondly it raises questions since Rake specifically denies the worship, which does have an effect on if he is a god or not. We see a similar situation with Dassembrae and Dassem Ultor being two separate manifestations. Dassembrae is a god for sure, but is Dassem? They exist separately, and Dassem doesn't show any actual powers of a god, so there is definitely a distinction. I would wager that the Blackwing Lord doesn't actually apply to Rake, but that just boils down to personal opinion and how you apply the agrument. Definitely an interesting conversation to be had at least
@@gracelesspassion1750 the black win lord does apply to Rake, all the blue rose tiste ande, speak of both as one, the whole reason Clip went to confront him,.... As far as Dassem and Disembre, well it's not a fact that that is Dassem, cause Dassem was born and " died" when he was young, he grew up as a mortal would, but like others Dassem is a ascendant..
@@ralphieaguirre I'd still disagree, since Rake denies the worshippers but there's no way to know how much that effects the relationship. I'm not saying the Blackwing Lord doens't refer to Rake, I'm saying I don't believe it makes him a god. Maybe there's not enough Bluerose worshippers to force it? Just a handful of people saying someone is a god doesn't have an actual effect after all.
The cult of Dassembrae explicitly refers to Dassem as the Lord of Tragedy, that's why they show up in TtH. Using your own argument, that means Dassem would be a god. That's not what we see in the books though, so there has to be a reason, we just don't know.
Without evidence, I can't say Rake is a god for sure. It's an interesting discussion that raises lots of questions, just none that I have a satisfactory answer to.
@@gracelesspassion1750 thank you for your response, I have read the books numerous times, in the ICE books Dassem is Hoods Mortal sword, so how is he Dessembre? Your saying that the god Dessembre is Hoods "Mortal" sword? The key word "Mortal" which implies not a god, also I have to go back and do my research but I do recall Dassem denying the cult of Dessembre as in being offord that godship implying he is not Dessembre,..I will get back to you on this .. as far as Rake it's a fact he is a ascendant, yes not all ascendants are gods due to having or not having worshippers...that's a thin argument, so does a god stop being a god when he no longer has worshippers?or does a god stop being a god b/c they deny there worshippers, answer to both is no, kurul lost all worshippers he is still a god, Mother dark turned away from her worshippers she is still a god. Anomander Rake is the Blacknwing Lord, wether he embraces his worshippers or not, he is a ascendant with worshippers which makes him a god, also Dassem ultor is a ascendant or on the verge of acendency, .he is a mortal and always has been.
@@ralphieaguirre In the ICE books he is Hood's mortal sword, there is a long period of time between the PtA books and the MBotF books. In that time Hood betrays Dassem, and Dassem becomes the Lord of Tragedy. Dassembrae is a very new god, who is Dassem. While at the same time, is not Dassem. There is a different plane of existance for Gods, as we see in DoD and tCG, which is why the discussion and distinction is weird lol.
There is a lot of overlap between the terms God and Ascendant, and it all depends on where you personally draw the line. You think a god is just an Ascendant with worshippers, I disagree. There is clearly a relationship with those worshippers and it DOES matter if you accept them or not, we just don't know how much. The argument is thin whether you are trying to prove or disprove if Rake is a god, which is why I refuse to make absolute statements. I'm not saying he isn't a god for sure, I'm saying it's impossible to know with certainty given how I understand Gods work in the series.
Does a god stop being a god if he has no worshippers? There are plenty of examples that this is true. All of the names the Mael keeps track of (That Brys then has knowledge of) stopped EXISTING when know one remembers their name. K'rul disappeared from existence for a very long time, until blood touches his altar in the beginning of GotM. Mother Dark turned away from her people, but she didn't deny their worship. She was clearly a god at one point, but no longer has that power in TtH.
I appreciate the talk :) We just have different ideas about gods. I believe there is more to being a god than just an ascendant having worshippers, you don't, which is completely fine.
You can argue Rake is a god, we see multiple accounts of his worship especially by like clip’s andii
Oh yes, there definitely is a good argument to be made there! That would require a discussion around a few extra topics, and the question of rejecting your worshippers.
**Spoilers Main 10**
Take Dassembrae for instance, because of his denial of worshippers there are actuall two separate manifestations of himself. Dassem Ultor and Dassembrae are separate entities, but are affected by one another. It gets into a grey area between a god or an ascendant :)
Just a couple of things you got wrong..
Rake is a god. He is worshiped in place of mother dark. Also he dies in a dual so he is not the strongest ascendant.
Quick Ben is by far the strongest Malasan mage. No question.
Rake died purposefully in that duel he'd have taken the fight with Dussem Ultor given that he's ranked seventh among the fighter tribe (can't remember their name)....Edit*..Seguleh
Rake died purposefully in that duel he'd have taken the fight with Dussem Ultor given that he's ranked seventh among the fighter tribe (can't remember their name).
It's debatable that Quick Ben is the Strongest while there's Kavalned and Tyschrien
Molazon
That's how I read it in my head, and how the audiobooks say it lol. I now know it's not how the author wanted it pronounced but it's hard to change that after nearly two decades of saying it one way
@@gracelesspassion1750
Fair