As a guy who recently graduated and started working for an airline. The money and benefits are significant, training and growth in the career is much more built out and provided by the employer. GA feels like more of a liability. Poor ancient AMM's to dig through, lack or parts and long lead times, large costs and pilots that want to pay the bare minimum. The only way I could do it is on my own and specific clients that I know take care of their aircraft and are willing to do it. To me that seems like a big ask. I hope pilots/owners can start to understand that. If a handyman can make $1k a day installing a couple of ceiling fans and garbage disposals but an aircraft owner loses there mind on a 1k quote to do basically anything on a cessna for a day. There is a problem. This field requires much more than some wrenchs and a flashlight. The years of training and testing for your certificate, liability of safety, makes it a no brainer that it should be worth more than working on a honda in someones garage or putting in window blinds. Its crazy and I'm ranting. I hope it gets better Bryce!
The biggest determining factor in GA A&P wages is the aircraft owner. Most owners cannot afford the aircraft they own and will only agree to the absolute bare minimum work done to keep it in the air, legal or not. They have always complained about the cost of maintaining their aircraft, but at that same time bragging about how the oil change on their Mercedes or Porsche just cost them $750 or more and how glad they are to have something that relatively simple done at the dealership rather than at Jiffy-Lube that would have done the exact same job, and with just as high a quality, for 10% of that price. And they seem to still have the insane mentality that when the engine quits on their airplane, they can just pull over to the nearest cloud and call AAA to come and fix it. With the average age of a GA aircraft approaching 55 years old, virtually no freshly minted A&P will touch them. Not knocking your or any other Part 147 school, but most of their training is not carried out on the average aircraft in the fleet that looks worse than a severely neglected 1961 Volkwagon Beetle with 300,000 miles and an engine blowing a quart of oil past the rings every hour. Most, if not all schools, are training students for airline work, and only airline work, because thats the only place that appeals to them given the airline machanic marketing indoctrination they recieve touting the fantastic starting wages and benefits. GA doesn't even get a once over when they inquire about jobs. They only work on the so called "bug smashers" because it's primarily what the school has for them to learn airframe work on. If by chance they ask about GA, they are given the grim advise not to go there because they will be nothing more than the proverbial "grease monkey". And lets face it, what would you rather work on, a nasty Cessna/Piper or a big Boeing/Airbus? Even on your Discord, 90+% of everyone there is only in A&P school to get on with the airlines. Believe me, I am not bashing GA. My first GA airplane ride was when I was 2 weeks old back in 1961 in my families Luscombe 8 and in our S35 Bonanza since 1972 and I've been working on them since I was 5 years old and flying them by 8 when I could see over the panel and reach the rudder/brake pedals at the same time and I would not trade it for an airline job for anything. I fly Part 91 and 135 piston, turboprop and jet and also work on all of them as an A&P/IA. Working in the airlines with their politics would drive me insane. GA airplane prices are astronomical and they'll never come back down unfortunately. And thats why Beechcraft will most likely be shutting down the Bonanza/Baron lines because they can't sell enough at $1+ million for a single and $2+ million for a twin. The only reason Cessna sells so many $475k 172's is because the big flight schools have to have them to train all the airline pilots that will be out of a job in the not too distant future. Maintaining an old GA aircraft is expensive, but it can be made somewhat affordable if you have an A&P that pulls his head out of the book and learns what the regulations are really saying and not reading them exactly as written. There is a lot of flexability built into the FAR's if you know how to interpret them. There are many things on GA aircraft that cost a lot if you buy them new, and some are not obtainable at all from the manufacturer. But a knowledgable A&P/IA knows how to interpret the regulations to the owners benefit and can instruct the owner on how to legally obtain and/or even have said parts manufactured that meet the FAA's requirements. And every owner needs to get off the "I have to have a full Garmin glass panel to be safe and happy" mentality. If you need all that automation to fly the airplane to your destination for your $500 hamburger on Saturday, you really ought not be flying because you are going to be a hazard to life at that point. I'd love to be around long enough to see GA back in a true healthy state, and maybe it will, but I don't know if I can hold my breath that long.
don't forget the gladly paying 20k for a panel upgrade but complaining about a annual bill that cost about half that despite it doing work that probably saved the plane from a very serious problem occurring in flight
@@kriskale Most people don't know where the vast majority of an airlines profits are derived from. Credit card frequent flyer programs account for over 60% of most airlines profits. Hard to believe, but it's true. Last year AA's flight revenue profits amounted to about $1.9 billion while their revenue from credit card programs and a few other minor program amounted to $5.2 billion. Not a bad income for something that they have to put little effort into. All other airlines pretty much follow the same income level percentages. If they did not have this program income at their disposal most of the airlines would be operating at a loss every year. With the ever increasing number of consumer credit card defaults due to consumers relying more and more on credit, those airline program profits are going to be dropping drastically due to credit card companies closing defaulted accounts and the number of new program credit card issuances taking a huge nosedive. That will directly affect the airlines profits and they will have no choice but to start cutting back on aircraft purchases and that leads to layoffs. All those mileage points that consumers are holding onto are a financial liability for the airlines as they are counted as debt owed until they are redeemed, so they count against their income. Rewards points are great for the consumer, but can be a nightmare for the issuer as they make their profit up front with the ticket sales but then still owe a service or product at a later date when they are redeemed when financial times may not be so good for them and they are hemorrhaging cash they now don't have so they have to then borrow at a higher intrest rate to cover their costs. While airline employment is great when apparent times are good, and they are not good in reality, it can get really bad in a downturn of the economy. And that is coming at us sometime in the next few years.
I agree with everything except one major thing. I actually prefer working on smaller GA planes than the big planes. Big planes pay more but as for pure work quality small plane environment is superior. Cargo and Airline aviation is filled with corrupt management getting you to sign off on sketchy things. “Oh this fire bottle is expired? It’s okay go ahead and sign off so it can be service again” GA still has lots of customers but GA shops have been forced to service corporate GA planes as almost like an MRO.
I’m 51 and going for my a&p, I’m not trying to get rich. I love GA and would love working on anyone’s aircraft. The main reason for me getting my cirtificate, is so I can work on my own plane. I imagine that I’m not the only one doing this. I retired from building power lines after 25 years. But I will say lineman are making good money now. Once I get my cirtificate I can still go back to line work, but I would rather be in aviation. In other words I’m not giving up on my dream.
10 min commute to the local airport vs an 1hr commute to the major airport is what keeps me in GA. Sure the pay is lower but the quality of life is much better. 8-5 Mon - Fri is hard to beat and have a good boss that allows me to take time off whenever. And gaining the connections of the local pilots and owners allows for some experiences that you can't exactly find in the commercial world.
I’m 8 months away from finishing my 147 program. I would love to work on GA ideally but the money in today’s economy does not make sense. Hangars and aircraft owners refuse to pay techs what they deserve. So I’ll stick with an airline or private.
Hey man great video!!!!! You really hit the nail on the head with new guys not making crap in general aviation. My first job in GA I made $10/hr. That was with my A&P and 9 years of military experience and my pilots license. I stayed long enough to get my IA and I got the heck out of there.
I am one year year into my apprenticeship at a GA shop. I have no debt, but I work 7 days a week and am just barely paying mortgage. I told my boss when I started that after I get my A&P I would stay with him if I am able to make enough to support my family. If not then I will have to go somewhere else.
Has a pilot, mechanic, and businessman. Businessman I'm really impressed with the various different models you propose. I can't say whether any of them would work or all of them, but just taking the time to consider the options is a great prospect.
Hey man. Thanks for your video. Thanks for sticking up for us A&p’s. I believe you have brought up very interesting topics that affects many of people in the aviation community. Also when it comes to safety it is best not to take any short cuts. Some Mx jobs may take a few more hours not intentionally just the nature of it. Hopefully there are more honest mechanics out there
Shop rates need to go up so people can get paid more. To be a good mechanic it takes years of experience, and getting paid 25 an hour isn’t something people can do for years now.
FAA regs need to allow owners to take an accelerated course for their specific aircraft that allows them to expand the scope of work they can do on their plane up to and including annual inspection. I don’t know how they would test this knowledge or maintain such a system, but allowing the mechanically savvy owners to work on their planes, and friends’ planes of similar model would take some of the burden off of the A and Ps and IAs to work with those owners that have no desire to be mechanically involved. Aircraft are getting to be 50 plus years old, and in order to be properly maintained, we need to be able to utilize commonly available and safe parts similar to experimental. At some point, legacy certified aircraft should probably just get transformed to some type of experimental category that allows owners to maintain without burdening manufacturers with liability. Beechcraft should not be liable for a Bonanza built 75 years ago.
And you have to have a doctorate in law.😅. Pilots are in the same position. Freedom of travel is being taken from us because we have a corporate government seeking to enslave it's people.
as soon as plane moves to experimental - it loses all its value. The very idea to fly 70 years old scrap, twice restored after write-off, is that it is legally a reliable certified full right machine, allowed to be used commercially, fly over populated areas, carry paxes and so on. Even if bolts popped out of it, CO gas flows in and wings fold midflight. And it does not require to be forcely moved to experimental. You always can deregister it, install/repair what you need and register it as experimental, yes it used to be certified bonanza, now it is my experimental plane based on it, of course certificate is not valid anymore.
@@antontsau That's not as easy as it sounds. The FAA does not allow a Type Certificated aircraft to the registered as experimental unless it is being done for devlopement work, such a new engine design or in the case of a V-Tail Bonanza changing to a straight tail such as Mike Smith did. Once that work is done, the FAA expects it to either be kept in that state via an STC if one is issued by the FAA or it must be returned to it's original configuration and a type design conformity inspection must then be performed by an FAA designee or the FAA itself.
I’m almost finished with A&P school. Every commercial job I’ve been offered pays double or more than anything in GA. Commercial world has better health benefits, travel benefits, pay, advancement opportunities… I have no plans to ever work in GA.
Shop rates have to go up in order to be able to pay wages that will attract mechanics to GA. You'll be hard pressed to find a shop to work on your car for 100 to 125 an hour, so wouldn't it only be reasonable for work on an aircraft to cost more. It's not like you can pull your plane over on the side of the road if something goes wrong. Aircraft mechanics need to stop cutting each others throats and raise rates, until then the mechanic shortage will only get worse.
Exactly! I would pay higher rates for shorter lead times. We just had to wait 6 months for an avionics shop to do a small upgrade that took about 4 weeks to finish a GFC 500 install with dual g5s.
@@zachschaneberger One, but not the only, problem at a lot of shops is lack of hangar space. Avionics installs obviously cannot be accomplished out on the ramp and getting into a larger facility is rarely a possibility. Even if their airport had the open space to build a new larger hangar, the cost to do so is crazy expensive and now they have to raise their rates to no only pay more to their employee's, they also have to increase their rates just to cover the cost of the loans for the new hangar. Even to lease a larger hangar that may already be built and available is usually not financially viable. Lease rates are insane and the insurance requirements for either a lease or a new build are outrageous. If you are paying an A&P say $60/hr and providing health insurance, paid vacation and maybe some kind of retirement, the real cost to the company is more like $120-130/hr. So, the shop rate needs to be at least $180-200/hr to make even a small profit even if your shop is stacked with aircraft all the time. That hourly cost to the customer, along with the increasing price of parts, is driving more and more aircraft owners out of ownership and a lot of these planes are just getting sold and parted out.
@@s35bonanzapilot84 We’re not the government, which can print money. The income has to come from the customers, so they have a choice. Either they increase rates to make it appealing for A&Ps to work for them, or they let their company burn to the ground, and someone with a business background will eventually take it over and increase the rates like they should've done. It's basic economics. Maybe my next business venture will be to buy or build an airport to house a shop and reasonably priced hangars. Just a year or two ago, I was looking at an airport with 75 acres and 30+ hangars with plenty of room for expansion. It was only $600k, and it wasn't far from a class C airport with a growing economy around it. That would steeply reduce costs than leasing with a major airport authority that is gouging prices. I haven't heard of a shop around me that was less than $100/hr for over a decade. Most are $125-$150/hr with shop minimums. Which is sad because that's what local diesel shops are going for right now and some are higher. I would gladly pay $200 per hour if I knew the A&Ps were making a healthy income. We have shops that turn down business simply because they can't get people to stay working there because they try to pay guys near minimum wage. With the BS mindset of, “Well, I had to struggle, so they do too.” Well, $15/hr or even $20/hr won't pay for rent and utilities, let alone allow a family to survive in my area. That won't even come close to paying my mortgage. That's not factoring in the cost of schooling for their A&P; AIM is charging $38k for their program, which is 21 months, not 18 like I stated before, but close enough. So, in my area, they need to be paid $30/hr min. or even $40 to compete with other local charter shops that pay up to $49/hr for guys with only a couple years of experience to stay at a GA shop. But most are going after those steep airline sign-on bonuses and $40 per hour starting pay and cap out mid $60s to $70/hr plus OT. That's about $200k at only 48hrs per week. So why should they work for those guys who don't want to pay what their worth?
I started at the airlines as an A&P back in 2007. The pay wasn't that great but so many ppl have retired and fewer ppl are graduating from tech school. The pay has probably doubled since I started. Airlines are giving A&P techs sign on bonuses. It's a different world today.
The issue is simple economics. GA is dying because every year the income required to even just fly a 70s or 80s Cessna 172 goes up and up. Meaning less people are flying let alone owning an aircraft. So less demand for mantaince and the customers left are just barely but not really affording their plane including the maintenance. So there is little room for GA shops to raise their rates. Which in turn means GA mechanic wages are low. Making it a high work, high liability risk, long hours job for relatively low pay. Combine that with an economic situation that makes going into debt for any career that won't pay at least 6 figures a pretty bad idea and the shortage of GA mechanics is expected. The only way to save GA is for the average standard of living to go up enough that the number of people flying their own planes increases significantly. Thus the demand for maintenance, parts, planes, ect goes up and so do the associated wages.
people fly less not because of price, but because they do not need it in modern world with highways, RPT and telecommunications. I can not imagine situation when I would need to fly on GA, 120kn, as transport - any possible route I will do faster (if count time to get to/from airport, plus all inconvenience to NOT have my own car all way long and for local trips) and 10 times cheaper by car. If money are not a problem - anyway travel in luxury car is not comparable with GA flight, with all its noise, shocks, risks, weather depending delays and cancellations... Yes there are some niches, like big boss makes inspection of his remote facilities scattered between mountains, swamps and islands, or in opposite some Fat Cat living in rural town who travels to Big City to play network golf, but they are too rare.
@antontsau You have a very myopic view of this. You see a plane as a utility item only. But even in that tiny subset of GA pilots who see it like you do, you only have part of the picture. Many rural areas do not have good commercial flight schedules. Many people do not want to ride 6 hours in a car when they can fliy there in less than half the time. Some areas require a 2+ hour drive just to get to an airport with an airline that goes to your actual destination. But most people are into GA not for the utility but for the love of flying. Those are the majority and those are the ones GA depends on for survival. There are many cases of whole flying clubs only affording one plane to share. And of 3, 5, 10 individuals owning a plane together. And just barely pulling it off. There are many, many more who have simply been priced out of aircraft ownership who would love to have a plane if they could afford it. These are the people I am talking about. If they can afford to fly again like in the golden days when evem a GP Dr. or middle level executive could, GA would not be on life support with the plug half out of the wall.
@@josh885 nope. If you fly 3h by ga it costs you $1000 at least. Just avgas will be 120L ie about $300. How many rural people can afford to waste $1000 for 3h of saved time? So - as noticed - only GA as toy left (yes, thats my own case, no need to tell how fun is it). But very expensive toy, worse than boat. And very few machines really allow to enjoy flight, not just soot the sky in 70 years old cessna.
@antontsau Yeah I know it's hard to understand if you've never been in that economic position but for some that trade of money for time is 1000% worth it. For some it's evem a trivial cost. It is simply a matter of what has more value to someone. Since most have never had the option to value their time over money, they don't understand those that do. You have one life. Every second past you can never get back. That has a different meaning when you have more choices over how those seconds are spent. But we agree most people fly for the love of it. What's needed is a stronger economy so more them can do it and support GA. It is the only thing that can save it.
Yup. And I’d LOVE to be an A&P, but I can’t stop working for two years to go through the training. I’ve been able to keep my day job while getting all my ratings and am getting close to airline time. The money on the other side, as you’ve pointed out, just ain’t there by comparison. I also owned a Cessna 150 for 5 years. I’m not rich, but I’m sure not broke either. I couldn’t justify the rising expense with what is probably the most affordable GA plane. Not blaming the A&Ps at all - I understand why they have to charge what they do. This has just been a long winded way of saying, I agree w all your points.
A better plan: 1. Start your boys and girls on balsa and tissue models. 2. Encourage more privately owned airports and seaplane bases. 3. Don't ban airport kids. 4. Pick, rescue, and restore a plane today. I did it.
It's easy: pay more and give benefits. Unfortunately, to do that, you need to increase prices. It's not a cheap hobby; some people just can't afford to own one, that's ok. Clubs are also a great option for keeping it affordable since the cost is spread evenly among all members or their reserve accounts. Otherwise, you need pilots to get their A&P. I can reduce my overall maintenance costs, and it's not terrible, with many schools only being 18 months like AIM. The cost of tuition pays for itself after 2 - 3 years-or day 1 after graduation if you're a vet using the GI Bill like myself. Also, many clubs compensate A&Ps with cash and flight time and even waive monthly dues and initiation fees in exchange for their work. Supply and demand will ALWAYS drive a free market. More demand means higher prices, and higher supply means lower prices.
I helped start an automotive shop in 2019 and our shop rate was $125 an hour. Our insurance was less than $5,000 that first year and. none of our tools were calibrated yearly. We did relatively simple tasks such as general servicing, maintenance, upgrades, etc not rebuilding engines or replacing transmissions. High cost of living city on the West Coast, I don't know how small GA shops can stay open charging the same or less than we did. I left to get back into aviation because I love it. I'm a dual-rated pilot rotorcraft/fixed wing and just finished my A&P and accepted an offer with a major airline. I plan on doing GA work on the side because I'm passionate about aviation and it looks like a good retirement job. I decided if I'm not flying commercially due to medical problems then I want to afford my own plane. Hard to do that on GA wages. I like the idea of a creative business idea like you mentioned. Or perhaps a group of owners will have to work together with a mechanic somehow to lower costs. Perhaps sign a waiver for liability to reduce the mechanic's insurance? I enjoy the videos, keep up the good work!
I think we need to change mechanic training to be more like part 61 flight instruction; where you can work training on a schedule set between you and your instructor. This would make it easier to transition careers when you can't drop everything and attend the old-school day/night style training programs. I'm trying to do something similar using King School's new "Cleared for Aviation Maintenance" course (that takes advantage of the new Part 147 changes) and a GA A&P/IA friend's supervision. Though it'll be difficult to satisfy the Turbine tasks. If training was more flexible (like flight training is) I think a lot more people would transition. I love GA aircraft, but as it stands entry GA mechanic pay is absurdly low to make the full-time switch make sense, and I can see why early career folks would choose the Airlines. It's hard to pay the rent or much less build an emergency fund with "passion" and gas station wages.
M. O. N. E. Y. What small shops need to do is have a national organization (shop/MX/IA specific) with set standards and negotiate for better deals on calibration or insurance. But the MOST SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM is hangar space. Municipal airports don't want to deal with buildings and if they do, require all sorts of regulations that increases costs. Most private airports are grass and that's a huge turn off for customers. GA has a ton of problems and havinging 10,000 individual shops instead of ONE major org might help with a few of the problems.
Excellent video, you hit the nail on the head with this one. My first job after getting my A&P was GA simply because I wanted to do real mechanics work and I love little airplane. I even got to get my pilots license on the cheap and even ended up doing the maintenance test flights on the more basic planes. But I started out making 15 an hour back in 2019 was eventually making 21 an hour 4 years later when I finally had to move on to a big company that could afford to pay me more with real long term benefits. I felt bad for my old boss though and still stop in to check on him whenever I'm in town though. To be honest working GA is still the most consistently enjoyable job I've ever had (and what I do now is pretty cool) but there was just no way for me to financially support a life out side of work and the worst part is it wasn't my bosses fault he was charging about all he could (and not even paying himself since he was 80 and had plenty saved up though other investments) but the overhead is so high there's just no money to split up between the mechanics and still pay them good.
Idk where you're looking but I graduated recently and from 1 of the biggest nationwide schools and it was Mon - thurs 7:30 to 2 which wasn't bad at all. And it was easy as hell for my being an auto mechanic before hand.
@@mzaite Im not sure if they have 1 of them up there but thats the morning class, evening I think was 5:30 to 11 or something like that. But 1 thing I recommend if youre interested is finding a flight school, or MRO or something were they can take you on as an apprentice. It takes longer to get your a&p (30mo) but atleast you make money while learning.
This is an excellent video with a great question. I am both a commercial certificated pilot and an A&P/IA. I had also considered going into work for myself a few years back. The cost of the bare minimum insurance was a shock for sure, but there is another part that you missed. In fairness, I am not sure that this happens everywhere, but is certainly something that happens in my area, and that is the barrier to entry imposed by many airports. Some airports will not allow any mechanics that are mobile or not established on the field as a fixed base operator. My home airport as an example wanted me to rent a commercial sized box hangar at 3k a month, and carry double the minimum amount of insurance. I specialize in avionics and wanted to also open a repair station. Between being forced to partner with the airport, the FAA, and the cost of tools and equipment, I am not sure how anyone makes money in aviation anymore.
Here's the solution. Tier list for A&P certificates. Make GA A/P a lower tier so people are forced to the job to gain experience before they can work at airlines. IAs will always exist as the business owners and motivated people. This method though will get you a consistent $20/hr workforce that has to work GA to move on to airlines. They'll be in and out in 2-4 years. You will never compete with the pockets of the airlines in terms of pay and benefits. But the system can be set up to basically force people to work GA for a time. Before you say that is unfair, that is literally how the system is built for pilots.
Walking into the IA seminars and seeing I’m less than half the age of everyone in the room. I try to get as much information and face time with them as possible. I am eligible for my IA in October and I am getting a lot of calls already. The IA in our area that most people go to isn’t much older than me but he has a day job as a float mechanic for Life Flight and also runs a flight school. I have enough work to be very picky about who I am working with.
One of the best options I found for doing work at a reasonable wage was working under a guy who generated the leads for me, working as an independent contractor I fell under his insurance and allowed me to do work without worrying and making $50 an hour plus travel costs.
When I was working on my private to eventually fly for MAF (that was the goal) I stopped by a maintenance hanger near me, and asked about becoming an A&P. I had four ASE master ratings, along with L1 and L2. The owner told me in no uncertain terms to never, ever, decide to work on airplanes. He said to leave all that to others. I took his advice. What would it take to get kids to work in GA? More money...which would kill GA, because aircraft owners would be paying out that money, and the cost of parts is already ridiculous. There is no good outcome here. Think of Tony Stark "threatening" Loki. "There is no throne, there is no version of this where you come out on top." You can't have people doing a job, where if they F it up, people die, and then pay them $50k per year for the risk they take on. PLUS, the government controls their ability to take that risk. That alone requires a lot more money than GA could ever afford to pay. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.
Exactly. Everyone saying pay just has to go up like shops are just being greedy and not paying dont' get it. There is very little room in GA for the price of the maintenance to go up. If it goes up enough to support the kind of wages that are needed, the number of people who can afford to pay for the maintenance will drop so low the shop will be out of business and GA really will die completely as only a tiny percentage of people flying now will still be able to afford to do so. The only way this changes is for the overall standard of living to go up significantly so more people can afford to be GA pilots and can afford to pay more for the maintenance. Unless that happens there really isn't a way to fix this problem.
I actually wanted to go into general aviation hearing I would be more likely to do a bit of everything and become well rounded vs just working on a maintenance line but also being brought to speed on a lot of the cons you mentioned pay, benefits, time off etc. I can’t afford that type of pay cut and lack of benefits with single income and a family of 4 to support. Those wages here in california are like fast food, or retail salary
New A&P after of 5 yr military commitment. Mailed 120 resumes. ONE job offer in 1993 $12.25/hr. Used the GI Bill, went to HVAC school. Ended A&P work and started HVAC in 1997 at $14/hr, up to $16.25/hr by 2000. $30/hr now. Built an experimental, flying it for 12 years now. It’s still $5-12K/yr for hangar rent, insurance and minor diy repairs. Then 100LL $6/gal. You can do it on $60K salary, but you’re going to need to stop trying to stay up with the Jones’. Drive cheap, older vehicles with liability. Become debt free, so the banks don’t own everything you think you do. Eat at home. Marry someone that will work with you and you’ll be more successful too.
Got out of a and p school went right into rotorcraft. Decided to give ga a try when the pandemic hit and i wont e going back. Started my ga experience at a small repair station, moved on to a avionics shop for a year and after 2 totally years in ga i went right back to working on fling wings. Bottom line is i dont want to pull teeth trying to get 27-29 dollars an hour when i can go to any other outfit and get over 45. Currently working on getting into the airlines just not as a Mech;)
Yes, It has gotten worse pretty quickly. I'm trying to get a new Navcom Installed and getting a shop to even call you back or answer you emails has become a challenge. When they do call/email you back they are 6 months to 1 Year out on even being able to do the work. Oh and the price will likely go up while you are in the queue waiting.
Encourage young people to work on amateur built (experimental) airplanes. They can now log the time. We have several young people at the Rutan Aircraft Flying Experience, Ellington Airport (Houston)
You can log the time if you are the builder. Working on someone elses homebuilt cannot be logged. Also if you purchase an already flying homebuilt and you as the owner work on it, that also cannot be used to log general experience time.
Pay me. It's that simple. I just finished a year and a half long course that cost me 12 thousand dollars and I've passed all but the powerplant o&p (its scheduled). I also worked full time at an MRO so I already have 2 years of experience on 737s. I didn't do all this to get paid $20/hr. I will be shopping around for $30/hr MINIMUM and if I don't see that rise significantly within 18 months, I'll be on my way. I love GA, I'd love to work on all kinds of planes, maybe even get one myself and build a local reputation as a good pilot and mechanic. But I want a house and children and a good life for my wife and family. I'm not going to deal with penny pinching pilots who can't pay enough to provide benefits let alone a reasonable rate. If GA dies it won't be my fault. To the GA community, figure it out. I'm not taking the hit for your hobby.
In truth, GA will never be as profitable as commercial or cargo aviation. Its like comparing apples to oranges and you yourself even said a GA mechanic will never be able to attain health insurance, a retirement plan, or the days off that they want. Now that is as it stands in the current A&P market. Even then commercial and cargo are still hurting for mechanics as well so GA is competing with big boys but the big boys have so much more to offer. I am speakingas an A&P my self and as a commercial airline employee
Not really an attack. Those airports operating costs are increasing exponentially. They cannot afford to give away services any longer like they used to. Now some of them have gone WAY overboard with prices and those need to be reigned in by the FAA. If the FAA invesitgates them and finds that they are charging exhorbitant fees, and that airport has accepted any FAA AIP money, then the FAA can do something about it. What the FAA has no authority over are ramp fees, and other fees, that the FBO's charge. Signature is one of the worst.
@@s35bonanzapilot84 Flying for a long time and it's generally been accepted (or at least I've heard) that as these airports are publicly funded, they don't charge GA aircraft to help promote aviation. Unlike Europe, btw. AIUI they're doing well financially as they push out GA for big $$$ corporate aircraft.
@@zz3709 Been flying and working on aircraft since the 60's. Most public airports of modest size or larger in the US do get some form of FAA funding. But that funding is limited to the runways, taxiways, control tower(assuming they have one), instrument approach facilities and supporting infrastructure. It does not include any of the aircraft parking areas or beyond whether they be public parking or FBO parking. Terminal buildings are owned, operated and paid for by the local municipality, not the FAA. Everything else is funded by city, county and state funding. Most people do not want their tax dollars to be spent on an airport that most people percieve as a place for the rich people to keep their toys, so funding for those airports is always under attack. Given that, local municipalities have to come up with various means to bring in money that has been cut from their budgets. And airport budgets are always taking cuts. If they want to keep people flying into their airports and keeping them kept up and attractive to the aircraft owners/pilots, they simply don't have a choice but to start collecting fees for the use of the airport. If you fly in and park for the day but don't purchase fuel, thats a 100% loss for them. Your airplane still took up space that they have to pay for. We pay for highways to be built. They then turn them into toll roads so we can pay for them twice or more. If they didn't, those roads would deteriorate and remain in disrepair. Believe me, the airports are not raking in millions of dollars and swimming in cash. Quite the opposite.
The "no experience" problem is not limited to your A&P field. It's pretty common for all real professions, and being an A&P is truly a professional occupation. Been there, done that as an architect. You didn't say what your family situation is, but if you are single, you might have an option that a family man won't even consider, although he/she should. The military would take you in a heartbeat. They'd also pay you (including full benefits) while you're in their school, guarantee you a job when you finish, and make the no experience problem a distant memory when you complete your enlistment. Before you jump back, think about what I just said. You might or might not want to make a career out of the military, but you've proven that you can commit yourself to finishing a program, whether it was a apprenticeship or a school program. Completing a military program with your background should be easy. Plus, it won't take long before the folks that you are around give you respect for who you are and the knowledge that you have. The instructors might be a bit cautious, but if you prove that you're willing to learn what they need to teach you, you'll discover that they'll give you more attention than you've ever had in the past. Even if you have family obligations, this can be done. It's just a bit more complicated, as you already know. Good luck.
Considering you can make more than $15 working at wawa. In my opinion if you want more young bloods then they need to pay more and offer benefits point blank. Most of my friends who graduated this year from a big name school are all getting hired at 30 to 35/hr straight out no experience and some even closer to 40/hr. Hell even a big name turbine company offered me 37/hr and i got to choose my own shifts and it was great. But 1 thing that doesnt help are all the aholes who think theyre 60yr old clapped out 172 is work 150k. Until the market reverses itself i dont see a change.
I did mine back in 2010 at my tech school, the PP instructor was the DME for my AF, It wasn't that tough. You have to remember electrical / mechanical things from Generals and AF If you have some automotive background that helps a lot, hands on experience helps too
I took mine in early 22. Get your P too if you aren't already. The air frame was the harder section for me ( I have more engine experience) put in the study time for sure. If you haven't, buy the Jeppesen mechanic books; they are word for word on the written exams and the have the O&P's that you are gonna see. I have a quizlet that I made from the jeppesen books that will help you tremendously. Let me know if you want the quizlet. You probably arent in the same state as me but if you are willing to travel I know two great DME'S that are fair.
@@elsalvadoran1688 Trying to figure out if I really want to spend 8 months in school for PP. I am retired now from a maritime career. Can do it in FLA or GA PP would be easy for me too because I have automotive engine experience but don't know shit about turbines !
@@InMyBrz 8 months is a lot to be fair so I get you. Turbines aren’t that bad they are relatively simple in the grand scheme of things. I know alot of the material is just airflow and material composition. Yeah there’s still plenty of airframe only jobs all over.
There are many problems causing the failure of general aviation. First, the cost of flight school is out of reach for most people. Second, the cost of maintaining an air plane is out of reach for most people. Third, fuel costs are astronomical and out of reach. And finally the cost of a new plane, Cessna 182 is more than $700,000. A new Beechcraft Bonanza cost more,than $1 million dollars. These prices are out of reach for most people.
Flight schools cater to airlines now. Private instructors are still not too bad on price. What you don't want to do is rent a plane to get you certifications in. Buy it, get your certs and sell it. You can usually cut your actual flying cost in half doing that.
Ap/IA since the '90s. Doing it less and less. I use seminar to maintain the IA. More and more selective about annuals. Owners cut corners on ratty antiques. A thorough AD search is difficult to do. EXAMPLE- ask yourself, after you sign that annual- do you KNOW that no ADS apply to any of those instruments? Really? Do you even know the make and model of each instrument? Not visible from the front, that information, is it? Can a failed, or almost worse, a failing AI kill a plane full of people? Yup. That, and other details, make the job frustrating. Low pay...working conditions..my mechanically inclined son knows to avoid it, another ap/IA friends 3 kids do, also. Other childless Ap/ia's grumble and question Continuing in the field, one has started applying in unrelated fields. GA has a problem. I don't have a solution...other than a general "better pay, better conditions", but anyone can say that. My activity in GA is dwindling, I thought maybe I'd start missing it...I do not. Talking to friends still more immersed in it confirms that nothing is changing anytime soon. The quirkiness and crudeness of aircraft engines, which I actually like, will become more and more of a liability as new pilots become less and less accustomed to such clunky machinery due to most of them now never having lived with a non-efi car..most drivers have never experienced a machine that takes any "technique" to run. I was also a CFI and was both amused and frustrated by students to whom the concepts of rich/lean, flooded, etc are completely foreign. Some end up getting it, some you can tell are just repeating answers with no understanding. Actually, some of the instructors are still like that...
It's all about where you work. I am a Lead A&P with two years of xp. started in the MRO world fresh out of school making 18 an hour on A320s and 737s. . Then went into a commercial GA shop with 6 months of xp for 25. Now im at a flight school/ rental company with 172s,182s, and Cirrus SR20s,SR22s. Im making more than my friends in the airlines, working 4 10s with a full benefit package on beautiful aircraft that are year 2001 and up. Its all about where you work. The whole "GA doesn't pay well enough" myth is simply...a myth. Do your due diligence and find a good shop. I can confidently say I'll be a GA rat for my whole career. After playing both sides of the fence, I will say as a young a&p GA is the way to go IMO.. Getting my IA in march and that will open a whole new door in this sector as well for me.
There are definitely exceptions out there, but in reality, there are not enough of those exceptions to make it worth while for the number of A&P's coming out of schools, with or without their A&P certificates. Used to be an new A&P might not make a lot to start with, but there were plenty of jobs out there to move up the pay scale. Now there are still jobs out there in GA, but the ladder to higher wages has become even more narrow and can't carry as many of them to higher places. You have to be willing and able to network your ass off and make sacrifices to get where you want to be. Sacrifices in the past were having to go work at another airport in the same area so I had to drive farther. Now the sacrifices are having to move to another state, and possibly another country.
I hate to say it but I think GA really is going to be all experimental or rich people's personal travel planes in the future the FAA regs just make it too difficult to lower the price of certified aircraft and parts. The other reason it's dying aside from mechanics and maintenance cost is that all the plane are extremely old and getting worse and every new company that tries to come along can't make anything cheap enough to make people buy it in qualities needed to profit from production.
Experimental is fine. I don’t get the stigma of it. I wish you didn’t have to be the builder to maintain it, because the shop infrastructure and skill is a big barrier to entry in Experimental home built, but companies like Vans have pretty solid kits that can get you running. Then you just fix your plane yourself, and GA A&P just become a niche for schools and rando part 91 operators.
@mzaite you can fix your experimental, the only thing you can not do is the condition inspection. For that you need an A&P or to be the builder. But virtually anything else you can do yourself.
@@brycebuildsit I was under the impression that is only for an amateur built you constructed. And then there is the issue of finding anyone willing to inspect and rectify an amateur arts and crafts product. Ask any auto mechanic how much they “love” seeing an owner maintained car roll in. Couple that to bit enough A&P to go around, and you need to schedule your Annual two years in advance.
Another things why people doesn’t want to work in General Aviation………they get just 2 or 3 years of experience in a specific skill (Avionic or Sheet Metal)……and they are getting jobs as a contractors in Repair Stations for 40 or 50 us by hour……doing Modifications, specific jobs with just a couple of years working in a repair Station……they are not Certified Mechanics, they are lazy for study those kinds of tests…..but People like you…..with A&P, with IA……people with EASA certificates…….trying to receive a considerable pay in General Aviation!!!…….what is happening with the Aviation World in USA Bro???
No way. Industry is dead. To fly to somewhere 300km away its much cheaper (10 times literally! Its cheaper to fly to the other side of planet on a380 than 200 miles on cheap old cessna), faster, more convenient and reliable to use car, to fly 1000 km - use RPT, to fly 10000 km GA is not an option at all. So only some niches left - funny toy, transport over some obstacles like sea bays or mountain regions (and use GA in such places is risky!)... drain water, switch off lights.
SADLY the money in GA is not there. You can go to a tech school to be an electrician or plumber and come out and make 100k a year The other positive to this is that you can find a great paying job ANYWHERE, you don't have to move to a big city, every town needs electricians and plumbers ! MOVING for a job SUCKS NO comparison to an A&P The LIABILITY IS HUGE for ALL kinds of A&P work I do think that a mechanic with a commercial pilots license IS a good idea, you will be high demand if you can fly commerically and work on the airplane AND I do think an airplane OWNER with an A&P/ IA is a GOOD idea
@@InMyBrz you are wrong about Electricians, Plumbers and HVAC techs, fresh out of school. They will make more than new GA A&P , but not $100K. Try $30-40K.
@@USA-GreedyMenOfNoIntegrity NOPE, I can do security for $20 an hour in FLA These guys would make at least $25-30/hr = $50-60k and after a couple years they just up
I'm thinking about applying for a GA job after getting my license so I can pay for college there isn't nothing inherently bad about GA and the one i'm closing in on is literally 15 minutes away from my college so it's a win-win for me. Or working for a airliner which I would have to commute an hour to going and coming back.
If you actually love working on things taking them apart then figuring out how they work and putting them back together GA is the best of all the aviation maintenance jobs at letting you do that. But just like the video says it does not pay because they really cant afford to.
@@tincannavy3188 aye that actually sounds pretty cool to me. Cause engineering is really cool and intriguing. So as long as I’m getting experience like that. Sign me up lol
Aviation in general is the problem, eventually it will implode and take itself down. The younger generations aren't willing to put in the time and expect more in less time. The local aviation program starts off with roughly 100 students, by the end of the 18 months that number is about half, out of the 50 or so that complete the coarse very few actually go take their oral & practical's.... what kind of numbers are you seeing at your school?
It’s almost like Aviation hasn’t kept up with the times. Between high costs, low benefit, and incompatible lifestyle. Nothing about it is or should expect to be appealing as time goes on. And the FAA treating a 2 seat aircraft like an airliner doesn’t help. Don’t blame the kids, blame aviations inflexibility.
As a guy who recently graduated and started working for an airline. The money and benefits are significant, training and growth in the career is much more built out and provided by the employer. GA feels like more of a liability. Poor ancient AMM's to dig through, lack or parts and long lead times, large costs and pilots that want to pay the bare minimum. The only way I could do it is on my own and specific clients that I know take care of their aircraft and are willing to do it. To me that seems like a big ask. I hope pilots/owners can start to understand that. If a handyman can make $1k a day installing a couple of ceiling fans and garbage disposals but an aircraft owner loses there mind on a 1k quote to do basically anything on a cessna for a day. There is a problem. This field requires much more than some wrenchs and a flashlight. The years of training and testing for your certificate, liability of safety, makes it a no brainer that it should be worth more than working on a honda in someones garage or putting in window blinds. Its crazy and I'm ranting. I hope it gets better Bryce!
Who-where does a handyman make a $1,000 a day? Installing ceiling fans or garbage disposals. Tell me
Handy Manny in Sheetrock Hills
@@JiggaSchlatt yeah right
Very well said.
@@JiggaSchlatt please avoid using airspace in North America. Wouldn’t want you to get a nosebleed
The biggest determining factor in GA A&P wages is the aircraft owner. Most owners cannot afford the aircraft they own and will only agree to the absolute bare minimum work done to keep it in the air, legal or not. They have always complained about the cost of maintaining their aircraft, but at that same time bragging about how the oil change on their Mercedes or Porsche just cost them $750 or more and how glad they are to have something that relatively simple done at the dealership rather than at Jiffy-Lube that would have done the exact same job, and with just as high a quality, for 10% of that price. And they seem to still have the insane mentality that when the engine quits on their airplane, they can just pull over to the nearest cloud and call AAA to come and fix it.
With the average age of a GA aircraft approaching 55 years old, virtually no freshly minted A&P will touch them. Not knocking your or any other Part 147 school, but most of their training is not carried out on the average aircraft in the fleet that looks worse than a severely neglected 1961 Volkwagon Beetle with 300,000 miles and an engine blowing a quart of oil past the rings every hour. Most, if not all schools, are training students for airline work, and only airline work, because thats the only place that appeals to them given the airline machanic marketing indoctrination they recieve touting the fantastic starting wages and benefits. GA doesn't even get a once over when they inquire about jobs. They only work on the so called "bug smashers" because it's primarily what the school has for them to learn airframe work on. If by chance they ask about GA, they are given the grim advise not to go there because they will be nothing more than the proverbial "grease monkey". And lets face it, what would you rather work on, a nasty Cessna/Piper or a big Boeing/Airbus?
Even on your Discord, 90+% of everyone there is only in A&P school to get on with the airlines.
Believe me, I am not bashing GA. My first GA airplane ride was when I was 2 weeks old back in 1961 in my families Luscombe 8 and in our S35 Bonanza since 1972 and I've been working on them since I was 5 years old and flying them by 8 when I could see over the panel and reach the rudder/brake pedals at the same time and I would not trade it for an airline job for anything. I fly Part 91 and 135 piston, turboprop and jet and also work on all of them as an A&P/IA. Working in the airlines with their politics would drive me insane.
GA airplane prices are astronomical and they'll never come back down unfortunately. And thats why Beechcraft will most likely be shutting down the Bonanza/Baron lines because they can't sell enough at $1+ million for a single and $2+ million for a twin. The only reason Cessna sells so many $475k 172's is because the big flight schools have to have them to train all the airline pilots that will be out of a job in the not too distant future.
Maintaining an old GA aircraft is expensive, but it can be made somewhat affordable if you have an A&P that pulls his head out of the book and learns what the regulations are really saying and not reading them exactly as written. There is a lot of flexability built into the FAR's if you know how to interpret them. There are many things on GA aircraft that cost a lot if you buy them new, and some are not obtainable at all from the manufacturer. But a knowledgable A&P/IA knows how to interpret the regulations to the owners benefit and can instruct the owner on how to legally obtain and/or even have said parts manufactured that meet the FAA's requirements. And every owner needs to get off the "I have to have a full Garmin glass panel to be safe and happy" mentality. If you need all that automation to fly the airplane to your destination for your $500 hamburger on Saturday, you really ought not be flying because you are going to be a hazard to life at that point.
I'd love to be around long enough to see GA back in a true healthy state, and maybe it will, but I don't know if I can hold my breath that long.
don't forget the gladly paying 20k for a panel upgrade but complaining about a annual bill that cost about half that despite it doing work that probably saved the plane from a very serious problem occurring in flight
why do you say that airline pilots will be out of a job in the not too distant future?
@@kriskale Most people don't know where the vast majority of an airlines profits are derived from. Credit card frequent flyer programs account for over 60% of most airlines profits. Hard to believe, but it's true. Last year AA's flight revenue profits amounted to about $1.9 billion while their revenue from credit card programs and a few other minor program amounted to $5.2 billion. Not a bad income for something that they have to put little effort into. All other airlines pretty much follow the same income level percentages. If they did not have this program income at their disposal most of the airlines would be operating at a loss every year.
With the ever increasing number of consumer credit card defaults due to consumers relying more and more on credit, those airline program profits are going to be dropping drastically due to credit card companies closing defaulted accounts and the number of new program credit card issuances taking a huge nosedive. That will directly affect the airlines profits and they will have no choice but to start cutting back on aircraft purchases and that leads to layoffs.
All those mileage points that consumers are holding onto are a financial liability for the airlines as they are counted as debt owed until they are redeemed, so they count against their income. Rewards points are great for the consumer, but can be a nightmare for the issuer as they make their profit up front with the ticket sales but then still owe a service or product at a later date when they are redeemed when financial times may not be so good for them and they are hemorrhaging cash they now don't have so they have to then borrow at a higher intrest rate to cover their costs.
While airline employment is great when apparent times are good, and they are not good in reality, it can get really bad in a downturn of the economy. And that is coming at us sometime in the next few years.
I agree with everything except one major thing. I actually prefer working on smaller GA planes than the big planes. Big planes pay more but as for pure work quality small plane environment is superior. Cargo and Airline aviation is filled with corrupt management getting you to sign off on sketchy things. “Oh this fire bottle is expired? It’s okay go ahead and sign off so it can be service again” GA still has lots of customers but GA shops have been forced to service corporate GA planes as almost like an MRO.
I’m 51 and going for my a&p, I’m not trying to get rich. I love GA and would love working on anyone’s aircraft. The main reason for me getting my cirtificate, is so I can work on my own plane. I imagine that I’m not the only one doing this. I retired from building power lines after 25 years. But I will say lineman are making good money now. Once I get my cirtificate I can still go back to line work, but I would rather be in aviation. In other words I’m not giving up on my dream.
10 min commute to the local airport vs an 1hr commute to the major airport is what keeps me in GA. Sure the pay is lower but the quality of life is much better. 8-5 Mon - Fri is hard to beat and have a good boss that allows me to take time off whenever. And gaining the connections of the local pilots and owners allows for some experiences that you can't exactly find in the commercial world.
I’m 8 months away from finishing my 147 program. I would love to work on GA ideally but the money in today’s economy does not make sense. Hangars and aircraft owners refuse to pay techs what they deserve. So I’ll stick with an airline or private.
Hey man great video!!!!! You really hit the nail on the head with new guys not making crap in general aviation. My first job in GA I made $10/hr. That was with my A&P and 9 years of military experience and my pilots license. I stayed long enough to get my IA and I got the heck out of there.
I am one year year into my apprenticeship at a GA shop. I have no debt, but I work 7 days a week and am just barely paying mortgage. I told my boss when I started that after I get my A&P I would stay with him if I am able to make enough to support my family. If not then I will have to go somewhere else.
Has a pilot, mechanic, and businessman. Businessman I'm really impressed with the various different models you propose. I can't say whether any of them would work or all of them, but just taking the time to consider the options is a great prospect.
Hey man. Thanks for your video. Thanks for sticking up for us A&p’s. I believe you have brought up very interesting topics that affects many of people in the aviation community. Also when it comes to safety it is best not to take any short cuts. Some Mx jobs may take a few more hours not intentionally just the nature of it. Hopefully there are more honest mechanics out there
Shop rates need to go up so people can get paid more. To be a good mechanic it takes years of experience, and getting paid 25 an hour isn’t something people can do for years now.
I'm working for an MRO doing overhauls on airliners. You start at $22 and hour with an A&P. The entire industry is pathetic.
FAA regs need to allow owners to take an accelerated course for their specific aircraft that allows them to expand the scope of work they can do on their plane up to and including annual inspection. I don’t know how they would test this knowledge or maintain such a system, but allowing the mechanically savvy owners to work on their planes, and friends’ planes of similar model would take some of the burden off of the A and Ps and IAs to work with those owners that have no desire to be mechanically involved.
Aircraft are getting to be 50 plus years old, and in order to be properly maintained, we need to be able to utilize commonly available and safe parts similar to experimental. At some point, legacy certified aircraft should probably just get transformed to some type of experimental category that allows owners to maintain without burdening manufacturers with liability. Beechcraft should not be liable for a Bonanza built 75 years ago.
And you have to have a doctorate in law.😅. Pilots are in the same position. Freedom of travel is being taken from us because we have a corporate government seeking to enslave it's people.
as soon as plane moves to experimental - it loses all its value. The very idea to fly 70 years old scrap, twice restored after write-off, is that it is legally a reliable certified full right machine, allowed to be used commercially, fly over populated areas, carry paxes and so on. Even if bolts popped out of it, CO gas flows in and wings fold midflight.
And it does not require to be forcely moved to experimental. You always can deregister it, install/repair what you need and register it as experimental, yes it used to be certified bonanza, now it is my experimental plane based on it, of course certificate is not valid anymore.
@@antontsau That's not as easy as it sounds. The FAA does not allow a Type Certificated aircraft to the registered as experimental unless it is being done for devlopement work, such a new engine design or in the case of a V-Tail Bonanza changing to a straight tail such as Mike Smith did. Once that work is done, the FAA expects it to either be kept in that state via an STC if one is issued by the FAA or it must be returned to it's original configuration and a type design conformity inspection must then be performed by an FAA designee or the FAA itself.
Helllo Bryce I got my A&P thank you 🙏 for all the study📚 tips.
Hell yeah 🎊 congratulations. Those are the kinds of comments that keep me going
I’m almost finished with A&P school. Every commercial job I’ve been offered pays double or more than anything in GA. Commercial world has better health benefits, travel benefits, pay, advancement opportunities…
I have no plans to ever work in GA.
Honestly man it's so bad that I'm almost insulted.
Shop rates have to go up in order to be able to pay wages that will attract mechanics to GA. You'll be hard pressed to find a shop to work on your car for 100 to 125 an hour, so wouldn't it only be reasonable for work on an aircraft to cost more. It's not like you can pull your plane over on the side of the road if something goes wrong. Aircraft mechanics need to stop cutting each others throats and raise rates, until then the mechanic shortage will only get worse.
Exactly! I would pay higher rates for shorter lead times. We just had to wait 6 months for an avionics shop to do a small upgrade that took about 4 weeks to finish a GFC 500 install with dual g5s.
@@zachschaneberger One, but not the only, problem at a lot of shops is lack of hangar space. Avionics installs obviously cannot be accomplished out on the ramp and getting into a larger facility is rarely a possibility. Even if their airport had the open space to build a new larger hangar, the cost to do so is crazy expensive and now they have to raise their rates to no only pay more to their employee's, they also have to increase their rates just to cover the cost of the loans for the new hangar.
Even to lease a larger hangar that may already be built and available is usually not financially viable. Lease rates are insane and the insurance requirements for either a lease or a new build are outrageous.
If you are paying an A&P say $60/hr and providing health insurance, paid vacation and maybe some kind of retirement, the real cost to the company is more like $120-130/hr. So, the shop rate needs to be at least $180-200/hr to make even a small profit even if your shop is stacked with aircraft all the time.
That hourly cost to the customer, along with the increasing price of parts, is driving more and more aircraft owners out of ownership and a lot of these planes are just getting sold and parted out.
@@s35bonanzapilot84 We’re not the government, which can print money. The income has to come from the customers, so they have a choice. Either they increase rates to make it appealing for A&Ps to work for them, or they let their company burn to the ground, and someone with a business background will eventually take it over and increase the rates like they should've done. It's basic economics.
Maybe my next business venture will be to buy or build an airport to house a shop and reasonably priced hangars. Just a year or two ago, I was looking at an airport with 75 acres and 30+ hangars with plenty of room for expansion. It was only $600k, and it wasn't far from a class C airport with a growing economy around it. That would steeply reduce costs than leasing with a major airport authority that is gouging prices.
I haven't heard of a shop around me that was less than $100/hr for over a decade. Most are $125-$150/hr with shop minimums. Which is sad because that's what local diesel shops are going for right now and some are higher. I would gladly pay $200 per hour if I knew the A&Ps were making a healthy income. We have shops that turn down business simply because they can't get people to stay working there because they try to pay guys near minimum wage. With the BS mindset of, “Well, I had to struggle, so they do too.” Well, $15/hr or even $20/hr won't pay for rent and utilities, let alone allow a family to survive in my area. That won't even come close to paying my mortgage. That's not factoring in the cost of schooling for their A&P; AIM is charging $38k for their program, which is 21 months, not 18 like I stated before, but close enough. So, in my area, they need to be paid $30/hr min. or even $40 to compete with other local charter shops that pay up to $49/hr for guys with only a couple years of experience to stay at a GA shop. But most are going after those steep airline sign-on bonuses and $40 per hour starting pay and cap out mid $60s to $70/hr plus OT. That's about $200k at only 48hrs per week. So why should they work for those guys who don't want to pay what their worth?
I started at the airlines as an A&P back in 2007. The pay wasn't that great but so many ppl have retired and fewer ppl are graduating from tech school. The pay has probably doubled since I started. Airlines are giving A&P techs sign on bonuses. It's a different world today.
The issue is simple economics. GA is dying because every year the income required to even just fly a 70s or 80s Cessna 172 goes up and up. Meaning less people are flying let alone owning an aircraft. So less demand for mantaince and the customers left are just barely but not really affording their plane including the maintenance. So there is little room for GA shops to raise their rates. Which in turn means GA mechanic wages are low. Making it a high work, high liability risk, long hours job for relatively low pay. Combine that with an economic situation that makes going into debt for any career that won't pay at least 6 figures a pretty bad idea and the shortage of GA mechanics is expected. The only way to save GA is for the average standard of living to go up enough that the number of people flying their own planes increases significantly. Thus the demand for maintenance, parts, planes, ect goes up and so do the associated wages.
people fly less not because of price, but because they do not need it in modern world with highways, RPT and telecommunications.
I can not imagine situation when I would need to fly on GA, 120kn, as transport - any possible route I will do faster (if count time to get to/from airport, plus all inconvenience to NOT have my own car all way long and for local trips) and 10 times cheaper by car. If money are not a problem - anyway travel in luxury car is not comparable with GA flight, with all its noise, shocks, risks, weather depending delays and cancellations... Yes there are some niches, like big boss makes inspection of his remote facilities scattered between mountains, swamps and islands, or in opposite some Fat Cat living in rural town who travels to Big City to play network golf, but they are too rare.
@antontsau You have a very myopic view of this. You see a plane as a utility item only. But even in that tiny subset of GA pilots who see it like you do, you only have part of the picture. Many rural areas do not have good commercial flight schedules. Many people do not want to ride 6 hours in a car when they can fliy there in less than half the time. Some areas require a 2+ hour drive just to get to an airport with an airline that goes to your actual destination. But most people are into GA not for the utility but for the love of flying. Those are the majority and those are the ones GA depends on for survival. There are many cases of whole flying clubs only affording one plane to share. And of 3, 5, 10 individuals owning a plane together. And just barely pulling it off. There are many, many more who have simply been priced out of aircraft ownership who would love to have a plane if they could afford it. These are the people I am talking about. If they can afford to fly again like in the golden days when evem a GP Dr. or middle level executive could, GA would not be on life support with the plug half out of the wall.
@@josh885 nope. If you fly 3h by ga it costs you $1000 at least. Just avgas will be 120L ie about $300. How many rural people can afford to waste $1000 for 3h of saved time?
So - as noticed - only GA as toy left (yes, thats my own case, no need to tell how fun is it). But very expensive toy, worse than boat. And very few machines really allow to enjoy flight, not just soot the sky in 70 years old cessna.
@antontsau Yeah I know it's hard to understand if you've never been in that economic position but for some that trade of money for time is 1000% worth it. For some it's evem a trivial cost. It is simply a matter of what has more value to someone. Since most have never had the option to value their time over money, they don't understand those that do. You have one life. Every second past you can never get back. That has a different meaning when you have more choices over how those seconds are spent. But we agree most people fly for the love of it. What's needed is a stronger economy so more them can do it and support GA. It is the only thing that can save it.
LOT SMARTER TO GO OUT AND BUY A SAILBOAT !
Yup. And I’d LOVE to be an A&P, but I can’t stop working for two years to go through the training. I’ve been able to keep my day job while getting all my ratings and am getting close to airline time. The money on the other side, as you’ve pointed out, just ain’t there by comparison.
I also owned a Cessna 150 for 5 years. I’m not rich, but I’m sure not broke either. I couldn’t justify the rising expense with what is probably the most affordable GA plane. Not blaming the A&Ps at all - I understand why they have to charge what they do. This has just been a long winded way of saying, I agree w all your points.
A better plan: 1. Start your boys and girls on balsa and tissue models. 2. Encourage more privately owned airports and seaplane bases. 3. Don't ban airport kids. 4. Pick, rescue, and restore a plane today. I did it.
It's easy: pay more and give benefits. Unfortunately, to do that, you need to increase prices. It's not a cheap hobby; some people just can't afford to own one, that's ok.
Clubs are also a great option for keeping it affordable since the cost is spread evenly among all members or their reserve accounts.
Otherwise, you need pilots to get their A&P. I can reduce my overall maintenance costs, and it's not terrible, with many schools only being 18 months like AIM. The cost of tuition pays for itself after 2 - 3 years-or day 1 after graduation if you're a vet using the GI Bill like myself. Also, many clubs compensate A&Ps with cash and flight time and even waive monthly dues and initiation fees in exchange for their work.
Supply and demand will ALWAYS drive a free market. More demand means higher prices, and higher supply means lower prices.
I helped start an automotive shop in 2019 and our shop rate was $125 an hour. Our insurance was less than $5,000 that first year and. none of our tools were calibrated yearly. We did relatively simple tasks such as general servicing, maintenance, upgrades, etc not rebuilding engines or replacing transmissions. High cost of living city on the West Coast, I don't know how small GA shops can stay open charging the same or less than we did. I left to get back into aviation because I love it. I'm a dual-rated pilot rotorcraft/fixed wing and just finished my A&P and accepted an offer with a major airline. I plan on doing GA work on the side because I'm passionate about aviation and it looks like a good retirement job. I decided if I'm not flying commercially due to medical problems then I want to afford my own plane. Hard to do that on GA wages. I like the idea of a creative business idea like you mentioned. Or perhaps a group of owners will have to work together with a mechanic somehow to lower costs. Perhaps sign a waiver for liability to reduce the mechanic's insurance? I enjoy the videos, keep up the good work!
I think we need to change mechanic training to be more like part 61 flight instruction; where you can work training on a schedule set between you and your instructor. This would make it easier to transition careers when you can't drop everything and attend the old-school day/night style training programs. I'm trying to do something similar using King School's new "Cleared for Aviation Maintenance" course (that takes advantage of the new Part 147 changes) and a GA A&P/IA friend's supervision. Though it'll be difficult to satisfy the Turbine tasks. If training was more flexible (like flight training is) I think a lot more people would transition. I love GA aircraft, but as it stands entry GA mechanic pay is absurdly low to make the full-time switch make sense, and I can see why early career folks would choose the Airlines. It's hard to pay the rent or much less build an emergency fund with "passion" and gas station wages.
Mind doing a video on whats it like getting promoted as an aircraft technician? How long it takes/the experience needed etc, please 🙏🏻
It doesn't help to see so many GA shops require like 10 years of experience for simple things you can train young mechanics on.
M. O. N. E. Y. What small shops need to do is have a national organization (shop/MX/IA specific) with set standards and negotiate for better deals on calibration or insurance. But the MOST SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM is hangar space. Municipal airports don't want to deal with buildings and if they do, require all sorts of regulations that increases costs. Most private airports are grass and that's a huge turn off for customers. GA has a ton of problems and havinging 10,000 individual shops instead of ONE major org might help with a few of the problems.
Excellent video, you hit the nail on the head with this one. My first job after getting my A&P was GA simply because I wanted to do real mechanics work and I love little airplane. I even got to get my pilots license on the cheap and even ended up doing the maintenance test flights on the more basic planes. But I started out making 15 an hour back in 2019 was eventually making 21 an hour 4 years later when I finally had to move on to a big company that could afford to pay me more with real long term benefits. I felt bad for my old boss though and still stop in to check on him whenever I'm in town though. To be honest working GA is still the most consistently enjoyable job I've ever had (and what I do now is pretty cool) but there was just no way for me to financially support a life out side of work and the worst part is it wasn't my bosses fault he was charging about all he could (and not even paying himself since he was 80 and had plenty saved up though other investments) but the overhead is so high there's just no money to split up between the mechanics and still pay them good.
As a bored adult, I’d train to pick up a job as an A&P. But the only option for training is child training schools that demand 24/7 attendance.
Idk where you're looking but I graduated recently and from 1 of the biggest nationwide schools and it was Mon - thurs 7:30 to 2 which wasn't bad at all. And it was easy as hell for my being an auto mechanic before hand.
@@mmaviator22 I'm looking where I live, Cleveland-Pitt area, and 7 to 2 is kind of work hours.
@@mzaite Im not sure if they have 1 of them up there but thats the morning class, evening I think was 5:30 to 11 or something like that. But 1 thing I recommend if youre interested is finding a flight school, or MRO or something were they can take you on as an apprentice. It takes longer to get your a&p (30mo) but atleast you make money while learning.
This is an excellent video with a great question. I am both a commercial certificated pilot and an A&P/IA. I had also considered going into work for myself a few years back. The cost of the bare minimum insurance was a shock for sure, but there is another part that you missed. In fairness, I am not sure that this happens everywhere, but is certainly something that happens in my area, and that is the barrier to entry imposed by many airports. Some airports will not allow any mechanics that are mobile or not established on the field as a fixed base operator. My home airport as an example wanted me to rent a commercial sized box hangar at 3k a month, and carry double the minimum amount of insurance. I specialize in avionics and wanted to also open a repair station. Between being forced to partner with the airport, the FAA, and the cost of tools and equipment, I am not sure how anyone makes money in aviation anymore.
I actually have run into that a few times.
Here's the solution. Tier list for A&P certificates. Make GA A/P a lower tier so people are forced to the job to gain experience before they can work at airlines. IAs will always exist as the business owners and motivated people. This method though will get you a consistent $20/hr workforce that has to work GA to move on to airlines. They'll be in and out in 2-4 years. You will never compete with the pockets of the airlines in terms of pay and benefits. But the system can be set up to basically force people to work GA for a time. Before you say that is unfair, that is literally how the system is built for pilots.
Walking into the IA seminars and seeing I’m less than half the age of everyone in the room. I try to get as much information and face time with them as possible. I am eligible for my IA in October and I am getting a lot of calls already. The IA in our area that most people go to isn’t much older than me but he has a day job as a float mechanic for Life Flight and also runs a flight school. I have enough work to be very picky about who I am working with.
One of the best options I found for doing work at a reasonable wage was working under a guy who generated the leads for me, working as an independent contractor I fell under his insurance and allowed me to do work without worrying and making $50 an hour plus travel costs.
When I was working on my private to eventually fly for MAF (that was the goal) I stopped by a maintenance hanger near me, and asked about becoming an A&P. I had four ASE master ratings, along with L1 and L2. The owner told me in no uncertain terms to never, ever, decide to work on airplanes. He said to leave all that to others. I took his advice. What would it take to get kids to work in GA? More money...which would kill GA, because aircraft owners would be paying out that money, and the cost of parts is already ridiculous. There is no good outcome here. Think of Tony Stark "threatening" Loki. "There is no throne, there is no version of this where you come out on top." You can't have people doing a job, where if they F it up, people die, and then pay them $50k per year for the risk they take on. PLUS, the government controls their ability to take that risk. That alone requires a lot more money than GA could ever afford to pay. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.
Exactly. Everyone saying pay just has to go up like shops are just being greedy and not paying dont' get it. There is very little room in GA for the price of the maintenance to go up. If it goes up enough to support the kind of wages that are needed, the number of people who can afford to pay for the maintenance will drop so low the shop will be out of business and GA really will die completely as only a tiny percentage of people flying now will still be able to afford to do so. The only way this changes is for the overall standard of living to go up significantly so more people can afford to be GA pilots and can afford to pay more for the maintenance. Unless that happens there really isn't a way to fix this problem.
I actually wanted to go into general aviation hearing I would be more likely to do a bit of everything and become well rounded vs just working on a maintenance line but also being brought to speed on a lot of the cons you mentioned pay, benefits, time off etc. I can’t afford that type of pay cut and lack of benefits with single income and a family of 4 to support. Those wages here in california are like fast food, or retail salary
New A&P after of 5 yr military commitment. Mailed 120 resumes. ONE job offer in 1993 $12.25/hr. Used the GI Bill, went to HVAC school. Ended A&P work and started HVAC in 1997 at $14/hr, up to $16.25/hr by 2000. $30/hr now. Built an experimental, flying it for 12 years now. It’s still $5-12K/yr for hangar rent, insurance and minor diy repairs. Then 100LL $6/gal. You can do it on $60K salary, but you’re going to need to stop trying to stay up with the Jones’. Drive cheap, older vehicles with liability. Become debt free, so the banks don’t own everything you think you do. Eat at home. Marry someone that will work with you and you’ll be more successful too.
@@USA-GreedyMenOfNoIntegrity I’m in the boat of trying to find a GA job right now it’s driving me insane
Got out of a and p school went right into rotorcraft. Decided to give ga a try when the pandemic hit and i wont e going back. Started my ga experience at a small repair station, moved on to a avionics shop for a year and after 2 totally years in ga i went right back to working on fling wings. Bottom line is i dont want to pull teeth trying to get 27-29 dollars an hour when i can go to any other outfit and get over 45. Currently working on getting into the airlines just not as a Mech;)
Yes, It has gotten worse pretty quickly. I'm trying to get a new Navcom Installed and getting a shop to even call you back or answer you emails has become a challenge. When they do call/email you back they are 6 months to 1 Year out on even being able to do the work. Oh and the price will likely go up while you are in the queue waiting.
Encourage young people to work on amateur built (experimental) airplanes. They can now log the time.
We have several young people at the Rutan Aircraft Flying Experience, Ellington Airport (Houston)
You can log the time if you are the builder. Working on someone elses homebuilt cannot be logged. Also if you purchase an already flying homebuilt and you as the owner work on it, that also cannot be used to log general experience time.
Pay me. It's that simple. I just finished a year and a half long course that cost me 12 thousand dollars and I've passed all but the powerplant o&p (its scheduled). I also worked full time at an MRO so I already have 2 years of experience on 737s. I didn't do all this to get paid $20/hr. I will be shopping around for $30/hr MINIMUM and if I don't see that rise significantly within 18 months, I'll be on my way. I love GA, I'd love to work on all kinds of planes, maybe even get one myself and build a local reputation as a good pilot and mechanic. But I want a house and children and a good life for my wife and family. I'm not going to deal with penny pinching pilots who can't pay enough to provide benefits let alone a reasonable rate. If GA dies it won't be my fault. To the GA community, figure it out. I'm not taking the hit for your hobby.
In truth, GA will never be as profitable as commercial or cargo aviation. Its like comparing apples to oranges and you yourself even said a GA mechanic will never be able to attain health insurance, a retirement plan, or the days off that they want. Now that is as it stands in the current A&P market. Even then commercial and cargo are still hurting for mechanics as well so GA is competing with big boys but the big boys have so much more to offer. I am speakingas an A&P my self and as a commercial airline employee
While that's already an issue, airports in Florida have been on a kick to start charging landing fees to GA aircraft. So attacks from all sides 😢
Not really an attack. Those airports operating costs are increasing exponentially. They cannot afford to give away services any longer like they used to. Now some of them have gone WAY overboard with prices and those need to be reigned in by the FAA. If the FAA invesitgates them and finds that they are charging exhorbitant fees, and that airport has accepted any FAA AIP money, then the FAA can do something about it. What the FAA has no authority over are ramp fees, and other fees, that the FBO's charge. Signature is one of the worst.
@@s35bonanzapilot84 Flying for a long time and it's generally been accepted (or at least I've heard) that as these airports are publicly funded, they don't charge GA aircraft to help promote aviation. Unlike Europe, btw. AIUI they're doing well financially as they push out GA for big $$$ corporate aircraft.
@@zz3709 Been flying and working on aircraft since the 60's. Most public airports of modest size or larger in the US do get some form of FAA funding. But that funding is limited to the runways, taxiways, control tower(assuming they have one), instrument approach facilities and supporting infrastructure. It does not include any of the aircraft parking areas or beyond whether they be public parking or FBO parking. Terminal buildings are owned, operated and paid for by the local municipality, not the FAA. Everything else is funded by city, county and state funding. Most people do not want their tax dollars to be spent on an airport that most people percieve as a place for the rich people to keep their toys, so funding for those airports is always under attack. Given that, local municipalities have to come up with various means to bring in money that has been cut from their budgets. And airport budgets are always taking cuts. If they want to keep people flying into their airports and keeping them kept up and attractive to the aircraft owners/pilots, they simply don't have a choice but to start collecting fees for the use of the airport. If you fly in and park for the day but don't purchase fuel, thats a 100% loss for them. Your airplane still took up space that they have to pay for.
We pay for highways to be built. They then turn them into toll roads so we can pay for them twice or more. If they didn't, those roads would deteriorate and remain in disrepair.
Believe me, the airports are not raking in millions of dollars and swimming in cash. Quite the opposite.
As someone who just got their A&P I would be happy with anything job I can get without any experience
The "no experience" problem is not limited to your A&P field. It's pretty common for all real professions, and being an A&P is truly a professional occupation. Been there, done that as an architect.
You didn't say what your family situation is, but if you are single, you might have an option that a family man won't even consider, although he/she should. The military would take you in a heartbeat. They'd also pay you (including full benefits) while you're in their school, guarantee you a job when you finish, and make the no experience problem a distant memory when you complete your enlistment.
Before you jump back, think about what I just said. You might or might not want to make a career out of the military, but you've proven that you can commit yourself to finishing a program, whether it was a apprenticeship or a school program. Completing a military program with your background should be easy. Plus, it won't take long before the folks that you are around give you respect for who you are and the knowledge that you have. The instructors might be a bit cautious, but if you prove that you're willing to learn what they need to teach you, you'll discover that they'll give you more attention than you've ever had in the past.
Even if you have family obligations, this can be done. It's just a bit more complicated, as you already know.
Good luck.
Buy cesna smaller shorter flight and sea plane then make more money like business jet cheaper to maintenance and easier flight training
Considering you can make more than $15 working at wawa. In my opinion if you want more young bloods then they need to pay more and offer benefits point blank. Most of my friends who graduated this year from a big name school are all getting hired at 30 to 35/hr straight out no experience and some even closer to 40/hr. Hell even a big name turbine company offered me 37/hr and i got to choose my own shifts and it was great. But 1 thing that doesnt help are all the aholes who think theyre 60yr old clapped out 172 is work 150k. Until the market reverses itself i dont see a change.
Hows your experience with your airframe practical? Where you nervous or where you relatively confident? Also Any recommendations before i take it?
I did mine back in 2010 at my tech school, the PP instructor was the DME for my AF,
It wasn't that tough.
You have to remember electrical / mechanical things from Generals and AF
If you have some automotive background that helps a lot, hands on experience helps too
I took mine in early 22. Get your P too if you aren't already. The air frame was the harder section for me ( I have more engine experience) put in the study time for sure. If you haven't, buy the Jeppesen mechanic books; they are word for word on the written exams and the have the O&P's that you are gonna see. I have a quizlet that I made from the jeppesen books that will help you tremendously. Let me know if you want the quizlet. You probably arent in the same state as me but if you are willing to travel I know two great DME'S that are fair.
@@elsalvadoran1688 Trying to figure out if I really want to spend 8 months in school for PP. I am retired now from a maritime career.
Can do it in FLA or GA
PP would be easy for me too because I have automotive engine experience but don't know shit about turbines !
@@InMyBrz 8 months is a lot to be fair so I get you. Turbines aren’t that bad they are relatively simple in the grand scheme of things. I know alot of the material is just airflow and material composition. Yeah there’s still plenty of airframe only jobs all over.
Better aircraft design may help.
would it be better to go to school for a degree in mechanical engineering or just go to a 147 school
There are many problems causing the failure of general aviation. First, the cost of flight school is out of reach for most people. Second, the cost of maintaining an air plane is out of reach for most people. Third, fuel costs are astronomical and out of reach. And finally the cost of a new plane, Cessna 182 is more than $700,000. A new Beechcraft Bonanza cost more,than $1 million dollars. These prices are out of reach for most people.
Flight schools cater to airlines now. Private instructors are still not too bad on price. What you don't want to do is rent a plane to get you certifications in. Buy it, get your certs and sell it. You can usually cut your actual flying cost in half doing that.
Ap/IA since the '90s. Doing it less and less. I use seminar to maintain the IA. More and more selective about annuals. Owners cut corners on ratty antiques. A thorough AD search is difficult to do.
EXAMPLE- ask yourself, after you sign that annual- do you KNOW that no ADS apply to any of those instruments? Really? Do you even know the make and model of each instrument? Not visible from the front, that information, is it? Can a failed, or almost worse, a failing AI kill a plane full of people? Yup.
That, and other details, make the job frustrating. Low pay...working conditions..my mechanically inclined son knows to avoid it, another ap/IA friends 3 kids do, also. Other childless Ap/ia's grumble and question Continuing in the field, one has started applying in unrelated fields.
GA has a problem. I don't have a solution...other than a general "better pay, better conditions", but anyone can say that.
My activity in GA is dwindling, I thought maybe I'd start missing it...I do not. Talking to friends still more immersed in it confirms that nothing is changing anytime soon.
The quirkiness and crudeness of aircraft engines, which I actually like, will become more and more of a liability as new pilots become less and less accustomed to such clunky machinery due to most of them now never having lived with a non-efi car..most drivers have never experienced a machine that takes any "technique" to run.
I was also a CFI and was both amused and frustrated by students to whom the concepts of rich/lean, flooded, etc are completely foreign. Some end up getting it, some you can tell are just repeating answers with no understanding. Actually, some of the instructors are still like that...
I may be new but where do I sign up?
How does a guy become an A&P and an IA? Any good resources you’d suggest checking out?
Oh lol th-cam.com/video/Lx0o8FnO490/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kwZ27h9uCwguDmsW
Glad you found a video on it. But yeah it's a long process getting the A&P goes quick though
@@brycebuildsit it’s your video on it 😂
👋🏻
It's all about where you work. I am a Lead A&P with two years of xp. started in the MRO world fresh out of school making 18 an hour on A320s and 737s. . Then went into a commercial GA shop with 6 months of xp for 25. Now im at a flight school/ rental company with 172s,182s, and Cirrus SR20s,SR22s. Im making more than my friends in the airlines, working 4 10s with a full benefit package on beautiful aircraft that are year 2001 and up. Its all about where you work. The whole "GA doesn't pay well enough" myth is simply...a myth. Do your due diligence and find a good shop. I can confidently say I'll be a GA rat for my whole career. After playing both sides of the fence, I will say as a young a&p GA is the way to go IMO.. Getting my IA in march and that will open a whole new door in this sector as well for me.
There are definitely exceptions out there, but in reality, there are not enough of those exceptions to make it worth while for the number of A&P's coming out of schools, with or without their A&P certificates. Used to be an new A&P might not make a lot to start with, but there were plenty of jobs out there to move up the pay scale. Now there are still jobs out there in GA, but the ladder to higher wages has become even more narrow and can't carry as many of them to higher places. You have to be willing and able to network your ass off and make sacrifices to get where you want to be. Sacrifices in the past were having to go work at another airport in the same area so I had to drive farther. Now the sacrifices are having to move to another state, and possibly another country.
I hate to say it but I think GA really is going to be all experimental or rich people's personal travel planes in the future the FAA regs just make it too difficult to lower the price of certified aircraft and parts. The other reason it's dying aside from mechanics and maintenance cost is that all the plane are extremely old and getting worse and every new company that tries to come along can't make anything cheap enough to make people buy it in qualities needed to profit from production.
Experimental is fine. I don’t get the stigma of it. I wish you didn’t have to be the builder to maintain it, because the shop infrastructure and skill is a big barrier to entry in Experimental home built, but companies like Vans have pretty solid kits that can get you running. Then you just fix your plane yourself, and GA A&P just become a niche for schools and rando part 91 operators.
@mzaite you can fix your experimental, the only thing you can not do is the condition inspection. For that you need an A&P or to be the builder. But virtually anything else you can do yourself.
@@brycebuildsit I was under the impression that is only for an amateur built you constructed. And then there is the issue of finding anyone willing to inspect and rectify an amateur arts and crafts product.
Ask any auto mechanic how much they “love” seeing an owner maintained car roll in. Couple that to bit enough A&P to go around, and you need to schedule your Annual two years in advance.
@@brycebuildsit When the price of a spark plug or an oil filter costs almost $50, GA will continue to decline.
Another things why people doesn’t want to work in General Aviation………they get just 2 or 3 years of experience in a specific skill (Avionic or Sheet Metal)……and they are getting jobs as a contractors in Repair Stations for 40 or 50 us by hour……doing Modifications, specific jobs with just a couple of years working in a repair Station……they are not Certified Mechanics, they are lazy for study those kinds of tests…..but People like you…..with A&P, with IA……people with EASA certificates…….trying to receive a considerable pay in General Aviation!!!…….what is happening with the Aviation World in USA Bro???
No way. Industry is dead. To fly to somewhere 300km away its much cheaper (10 times literally! Its cheaper to fly to the other side of planet on a380 than 200 miles on cheap old cessna), faster, more convenient and reliable to use car, to fly 1000 km - use RPT, to fly 10000 km GA is not an option at all. So only some niches left - funny toy, transport over some obstacles like sea bays or mountain regions (and use GA in such places is risky!)... drain water, switch off lights.
Without watching this video i’m just gonna say it’s to expensive
$
$$
SADLY the money in GA is not there.
You can go to a tech school to be an electrician or plumber and come out and make 100k a year
The other positive to this is that you can find a great paying job ANYWHERE, you don't have to move to a big city, every town needs electricians and plumbers ! MOVING for a job SUCKS
NO comparison to an A&P
The LIABILITY IS HUGE for ALL kinds of A&P work
I do think that a mechanic with a commercial pilots license IS a good idea, you will be high demand if you can fly commerically and work on the airplane
AND I do think an airplane OWNER with an A&P/ IA is a GOOD idea
@@InMyBrz you are wrong about Electricians, Plumbers and HVAC techs, fresh out of school. They will make more than new GA A&P , but not $100K. Try $30-40K.
@@USA-GreedyMenOfNoIntegrity NOPE, I can do security for $20 an hour in FLA
These guys would make at least $25-30/hr = $50-60k and after a couple years they just up
My A&P charges $110/hour and still complaining 😂
I wanna do general aviation once I graduate hopefully I can find a shop I’m from philly
We need to get more people off of Uber and door dash and back into our hangars and shipyards
I'm thinking about applying for a GA job after getting my license so I can pay for college there isn't nothing inherently bad about GA and the one i'm closing in on is literally 15 minutes away from my college so it's a win-win for me. Or working for a airliner which I would have to commute an hour to going and coming back.
If you actually love working on things taking them apart then figuring out how they work and putting them back together GA is the best of all the aviation maintenance jobs at letting you do that. But just like the video says it does not pay because they really cant afford to.
@@tincannavy3188 aye that actually sounds pretty cool to me. Cause engineering is really cool and intriguing. So as long as I’m getting experience like that. Sign me up lol
@@Uhhhhh-b1lit will definitely make you better minded in my opinion and you’ll know tricks of the trade in a sense.
Aviation in general is the problem, eventually it will implode and take itself down. The younger generations aren't willing to put in the time and expect more in less time. The local aviation program starts off with roughly 100 students, by the end of the 18 months that number is about half, out of the 50 or so that complete the coarse very few actually go take their oral & practical's.... what kind of numbers are you seeing at your school?
This is so true. I found out when I took my orals and practicals that practically 70% of the school gave up. Like why? Spend all that money
It’s almost like Aviation hasn’t kept up with the times. Between high costs, low benefit, and incompatible lifestyle. Nothing about it is or should expect to be appealing as time goes on. And the FAA treating a 2 seat aircraft like an airliner doesn’t help.
Don’t blame the kids, blame aviations inflexibility.
@@mzaite fair enough
I think you answered your own conundrum
GA require more experience