According to a response I got from Fellow, current Ode's ship with V1.1 burrs. The V1.1 burrs grind 100 microns finer than the V1 burrs (so, around 10% finer). According to the same source, they are working on V2 burrs, which will "expand the range of the Ode further", but it's not clear when they will be available, or how much they will cost.
@@MarkPharaoh I think if they were considering making burrs for the Ode that would grind for espresso then yes, motor life would be a concern. As it is, they're just trying to make a relatively small adjustment, so that it can grind finer for things like pour overs and aeropresses. Given that, I doubt that the motor will be required to operate outside the range of it's original design parameters.
I thought I was getting a Mignon Filtro as a dedicated filter grinder, but instead found it quickly relegated itself to cold brew duties only, and then mostly due to the hopper making the bigger batch grinds easier to process. The Niche is superb as an all-round unit, despite the espresso-focused marketing/intentions. If you could only afford a single good grinder for all styles, I’d recommend the Niche every time.
Just recently Eureka released a burr which doesn’t look like an espresso centric burr for the 50mm range, I believe crono and filtro. From the look of it I would expect it to do better than the mignon brew pro with it’s 55mm burr with only slight differences to the espresso burrs, but we will never know if you don’t test it @Michael Fabian
@@dl4608 The filtro and brew pro are different machines with different burr geometries. As far I know/as Eureka claims, the brew pro has a burr set designated for filter coffee. The Filtro did not have such a burr set (thus having more of an espresso-ish burr) ... until very recently, though I'm not sure those machines/burrs have made it to the average distributor/seller just yet.
Seems Hoffmann likes it for filter as well, but I believe the general internet consensus is that conical burrs are not the way to go for filter coffee. Regardless, I'd wager the vast majority of coffee folks would be happy with the Niche for filtered coffee.
I have used the niche for v60 filter only for over a year and it seems fine to me. I used to use a comandate c40 but switched to the niche as it’s easier. Both seem casually to have similar burr sets (I.e. not flat) but no one seems to complain about the c40 for filter?
Fair! As I touch on in the Weber Key video, the 63mm conical set in the Niche & Kony absolutely can do dual duty- I’m just more demanding on my filter grinders :/
@@paulclutton5201 the cutting pattern is definitely different on the C40, it doesn't grind the same as the Niche. The Niche is serviceable, and Rao and Hoffmann both seem to not mind it for filter. But I find it lacking compared to local cafes so I'm in search of an upgrade
Tried using the Niche for a while for both espresso and filter. No amount of dialing in and finagling with technique would give me a pour over with clarity… which I blame on the fines. So now I relegate the Niche to espresso, and have a dedicated Ode for filter. Zero desire to go to a cafe given the quality of both. Would be hard pressed to ask for a more ideal setup.
I’ll never get folks who will put in the effort to do a pour over but don’t want to deal with a hand grinder..it’s the best part. Shame the C40 seems to be sold out nearly everywhere in the US. The Ode doesn’t really have fines in the cup because it’s all over the counter and grinder housing 😅
Agreed, which is one of the reasons I’m considering an upgrade from the C40 to an OE Apex. If the reviews are to be believed, it seems hard to beat for anything less than $2k.
Excellent video as per usual Michael! I’m glad our conversation helped. Up to some manufacturer to produce one because the blueprint and success rate is clear as day for the right design.
Great video...I had that same Bodum grinder for quite a while. I use the Ode now, but if I want to brew smaller Kalitas or Harios, I get out my hand grinder.
Thoughts on hyper aligned forte/Vario with steel 54mm burrs vs fellow ode? I know retention is an issue, but what are your thoughts on cup quality vs cup quality? Have you done side by side?
I own the ode and a comandante, i have been giving thought recently to just selling both and getting a niche. I’m just worried that niche could release a v2 of their grinder and I had just bought the old one
Michael, did you do a video on the Orphan Espresso Apex? I can't easily find it. Also, don't discount hand grinding. I don't mind it, and would gladly do it for better cups. Maybe have a manual and electric pick in the future?
What about any of the Baratza Sette line up? I haven’t owned any of them yet, but I’ve heard enough good things about them that I’m curious as to why they weren’t in your candidates.
The Sette line isn’t so great for coarse enough grinds for filter coffee - I suspect the Niche is actually better at coarse settings, but I only have a Sette 30, so I can’t compare!
Sette is geared towards espresso (I have a 270). It’s great for that. You can get a burr set for drip which works pretty well, but it’s annoying to change them out.
The go-to brew grinder in Asia (within that price range) is the R220 from Fuji Royal, it's available in flat burrs and "ghost" burrs. I've heard it still outperforms the Ode even though it has been in the market for a couple years
Less demand for an electric burr grinder for filter since hand grinding such a particle size isn't so bad. Imo relative to the top shelf grinders, the top hand grinders exceed niche's grind quality for their respective purposes. I.e. a C40 has better grind quality for filter than the Niche has for espresso
What do you think about the SSP brew burrs for the Ode? They are allegedly very clean an capable of grinding fine enough but there’s a jump in price and a motor constraint. How far do you think they are from ideal? P.D. Love the quality of your content and your focused opinions:)
Thank you! In early 2021 had a 64mm unimodal/multipurpose burr in the p64 and didn’t think it was the best performer for filter. I know there are a lot of SSP variants now, maybe there’s a better burr.
Hi Michael, love the topic. What were your thoughts after reviewing / comparing the C40 and the Apex? I have the former and I’m considering purchasing the latter. If it produces cups on par with the EK as some suggest, I might pull the trigger and hope for a motorized niche-esque filter grinder at some point in the future. Thanks, love your vids 🙏🏼
They’re VERY similar, I preferred the C40 by a *hair* on more sweetness and a touch more “complexity” but this was a tough call- the Apex also produced stellar cups. those two were my favorites of the bunch tested. Regarding the EK comparison, I thought it was BS- that is, until I had the C40 here after years of hearing that line. The C40 really is that enjoyable
If you ignore price and effort of grinding, how would you rate the Ode vs OE Apex? (I’m interested first in taste and low grind retention) I guess I’d also be interested to know where you’d rank the C40 in there since you mentioned these 3 specifically.
FLAVOR- They’re VERY similar, I preferred the C40 by a hair on more sweetness and a touch more “complexity” but this was a tough call- the Apex also produced stellar cups. Those two were my favorites of the bunch tested. EFFORT- I had a tough time with the Apex, it takes a lot of time but not a lot of arm strength (I am impatient). I don’t know if this was my unit or is a quirk of the unit itself
woww love this channel man! great content, great quality, definitely subbing 😻 one minor and irrelevant critique from a casual youtube user: maybe keep that camera a little further away for a wider shot…it’s a tad daunting with you staring so close hahaha but this is just me offering some very picky commentary. love this man, keep it up!!!
Isn’t this subjective to the individual’s taste? Who’s to say the Ode grinder isn’t good for a lot of people and makes a decent cup of coffee? I’ve been using the Breville Smart Grinder Pro for my pour overs for several years and love it. I feel using different pour over methods is where you get control over the coffee taste you want more so than the grinder. Using the April Brewer, V60, Stagg [X] or my Chemex allows me to vary my coffee taste in the cup. I’m looking at different grinders as alternates but not convinced spending over $300 or even $400 on a grinder will give me a better cup of coffee.
The clear answer is the DF64 with SSP Unimodal. I have been pulling some insane espresso shots with it and the two filter brews I have done with it did not disappoint. Plus, unlike the Ode, you do not have to worry about the DF64 having issues with SSP burrs since the motor is a tank and a huge majority of people all over seem to use SSP as the burrs of choice with no issues.
This is something Im very very curious about and how it stacks up to say, the niche alone or the niche and a fellow ode, though obviously having both is notably more expensive
What do we need to see in the ideal grinder: -vertical burrs- -lack of retention- -larger burrs- I agree with this one but if you have a dual grind system into there you do not need more surface to cut because you pre-cut the beans- I do not agree with people who complain about size on the counter, the taste is more important than that, people who seak little objects wont chase the best taste, they will trade some, or sacrifice on taste. And the final winner grinder based on all those request is simple, it's the Bentwood vertical 63. It even has it's own double thickness burrs cast steel.
The Niche Zero of filter is already here…it’s what some would know as “the Niche Zero of espresso”. Seriously, just slap a 360° grind dial on it, instead of the espresso-only range of the current design, and you’ve got it. The Niche Zero is a superb filter grinder, you just need to stop seeing the “50” as an end and instead see it as a beginning…👌
According to a response I got from Fellow, current Ode's ship with V1.1 burrs. The V1.1 burrs grind 100 microns finer than the V1 burrs (so, around 10% finer).
According to the same source, they are working on V2 burrs, which will "expand the range of the Ode further", but it's not clear when they will be available, or how much they will cost.
Another unclear thing is how much more these burrs will stress the motor.
@@MarkPharaoh I think if they were considering making burrs for the Ode that would grind for espresso then yes, motor life would be a concern. As it is, they're just trying to make a relatively small adjustment, so that it can grind finer for things like pour overs and aeropresses. Given that, I doubt that the motor will be required to operate outside the range of it's original design parameters.
I'd love to see a follow-up video of the 2023 Niche Duo and Fellow Ode Gen 2!
There's also the eureka mignon brew pro. For some reason, nobody is covering that grinder much.
I thought I was getting a Mignon Filtro as a dedicated filter grinder, but instead found it quickly relegated itself to cold brew duties only, and then mostly due to the hopper making the bigger batch grinds easier to process. The Niche is superb as an all-round unit, despite the espresso-focused marketing/intentions. If you could only afford a single good grinder for all styles, I’d recommend the Niche every time.
Just recently Eureka released a burr which doesn’t look like an espresso centric burr for the 50mm range, I believe crono and filtro. From the look of it I would expect it to do better than the mignon brew pro with it’s 55mm burr with only slight differences to the espresso burrs, but we will never know if you don’t test it @Michael Fabian
@@dl4608 The filtro and brew pro are different machines with different burr geometries. As far I know/as Eureka claims, the brew pro has a burr set designated for filter coffee. The Filtro did not have such a burr set (thus having more of an espresso-ish burr) ... until very recently, though I'm not sure those machines/burrs have made it to the average distributor/seller just yet.
The Eureka grounds bin they use for their filter grinders just doesn't seem very nice to use, compared to the niche cup or the weber tumbler
Uhhhm what about the Wilfa Uniform??
Yeah i think it ticks all the boxes!
Huh? So you're saying the Ode produces a grind size that's too uniform without enough fines? First time I heard someone complain about that.
Isn’t the niche zero the niche zero of drip coffee already?
What makes better tasting brew coffee, Ode or niche? (Generally) or at least how would they differ in taste?
Is the Niche Zero really so ill-suited to filter coffee that it’s not *already* the Niche Zero of filter coffee? :P
Seems Hoffmann likes it for filter as well, but I believe the general internet consensus is that conical burrs are not the way to go for filter coffee. Regardless, I'd wager the vast majority of coffee folks would be happy with the Niche for filtered coffee.
I have used the niche for v60 filter only for over a year and it seems fine to me. I used to use a comandate c40 but switched to the niche as it’s easier. Both seem casually to have similar burr sets (I.e. not flat) but no one seems to complain about the c40 for filter?
Fair! As I touch on in the Weber Key video, the 63mm conical set in the Niche & Kony absolutely can do dual duty- I’m just more demanding on my filter grinders :/
@@paulclutton5201 the cutting pattern is definitely different on the C40, it doesn't grind the same as the Niche.
The Niche is serviceable, and Rao and Hoffmann both seem to not mind it for filter. But I find it lacking compared to local cafes so I'm in search of an upgrade
Tried using the Niche for a while for both espresso and filter. No amount of dialing in and finagling with technique would give me a pour over with clarity… which I blame on the fines. So now I relegate the Niche to espresso, and have a dedicated Ode for filter. Zero desire to go to a cafe given the quality of both. Would be hard pressed to ask for a more ideal setup.
TH-cam algorithm is working overtime-it just recommended this. Great vid, subscribed.
I’ll never get folks who will put in the effort to do a pour over but don’t want to deal with a hand grinder..it’s the best part. Shame the C40 seems to be sold out nearly everywhere in the US. The Ode doesn’t really have fines in the cup because it’s all over the counter and grinder housing 😅
Agreed, which is one of the reasons I’m considering an upgrade from the C40 to an OE Apex. If the reviews are to be believed, it seems hard to beat for anything less than $2k.
So I preferred the c40 by a *hair* to the Apex. I lent the c40 to a friend with an Apex, and he slightly preferred the Apex, YMMV
I absolutely love my Comandante. It looks nice, it’s a good size, the quality of the grind is unreal, and it’s enjoyable to use.
I like this presentation style, no emotional bs
Great video as always Michael! Very nicely explained
Could you check out the Option-O Lagom Mini? Some reviewers have called it a mini Niche, but for filter coffee. Would be good to hear your thoughts.
Excellent video as per usual Michael! I’m glad our conversation helped. Up to some manufacturer to produce one because the blueprint and success rate is clear as day for the right design.
You nailed this video!
Great video...I had that same Bodum grinder for quite a while. I use the Ode now, but if I want to brew smaller Kalitas or Harios, I get out my hand grinder.
Where are the C40/Apex/Forté reviews mentioned in this video?
Yes, I'm looking for opinions on the OE Apex as well. It's nowhere to be found.
Not necessarily larger but the lagom mini seems to fit the bill for affordability and quality
Very legitimate argument 👍
Very interesting as always
Very informative and interesting review on the Niche and Ode, really good stuff, nice video
What about Wilfa Uniform? Good price ca. 300 CHF, goes finer than Ode and looks nice :)
I have SSP silver knight cast sweet burrs on the way for my ode. There are burr options out there you just have to do your homework.
Will you make a Video about the Lagom P64?
I had one for a while, it’ll likely be rolled into another video
Thoughts on hyper aligned forte/Vario with steel 54mm burrs vs fellow ode? I know retention is an issue, but what are your thoughts on cup quality vs cup quality? Have you done side by side?
Slightly prefer the 54mm steel burrs in those to the Ode- cups are sweeter with more pleasing complexity
Niche can do drip, just set it all the way to coarse.
what's wrong with the niche for drip?
I own the ode and a comandante, i have been giving thought recently to just selling both and getting a niche. I’m just worried that niche could release a v2 of their grinder and I had just bought the old one
Michael, did you do a video on the Orphan Espresso Apex? I can't easily find it.
Also, don't discount hand grinding. I don't mind it, and would gladly do it for better cups. Maybe have a manual and electric pick in the future?
What about any of the Baratza Sette line up? I haven’t owned any of them yet, but I’ve heard enough good things about them that I’m curious as to why they weren’t in your candidates.
The Sette line isn’t so great for coarse enough grinds for filter coffee - I suspect the Niche is actually better at coarse settings, but I only have a Sette 30, so I can’t compare!
Sette is geared towards espresso (I have a 270). It’s great for that. You can get a burr set for drip which works pretty well, but it’s annoying to change them out.
@@wlovas Gotcha’. Thanks, dude.
@@staticchicken Oh, ok. Thanks. 👍🏼
So how good is a comandante actually?
The go-to brew grinder in Asia (within that price range) is the R220 from Fuji Royal, it's available in flat burrs and "ghost" burrs.
I've heard it still outperforms the Ode even though it has been in the market for a couple years
fuji-royal.jp/en/products/mill/r220/#compare
Hope to have one here sooner rather than later!
For me I got the Baratza Vario and put steel burrs (from Baratza) and it makes amazing filter coffee
What about someone making a nice little mod for the apex that motorizes it? Like the HG1 that got a motorized kit.
There are already motors for the c40. Quite expensive and maybe not the best quality, yet, but will surely get better.
Are there other options than the one from Turkey? Someone led me to believe that operation had closed
@@michael_j_fabian There are probably more, but from the top of my head: madkat, gawoody, tubenhorn
Less demand for an electric burr grinder for filter since hand grinding such a particle size isn't so bad. Imo relative to the top shelf grinders, the top hand grinders exceed niche's grind quality for their respective purposes. I.e. a C40 has better grind quality for filter than the Niche has for espresso
What do you think about the SSP brew burrs for the Ode? They are allegedly very clean an capable of grinding fine enough but there’s a jump in price and a motor constraint. How far do you think they are from ideal?
P.D. Love the quality of your content and your focused opinions:)
Thank you! In early 2021 had a 64mm unimodal/multipurpose burr in the p64 and didn’t think it was the best performer for filter. I know there are a lot of SSP variants now, maybe there’s a better burr.
Hi Michael, love the topic. What were your thoughts after reviewing / comparing the C40 and the Apex? I have the former and I’m considering purchasing the latter. If it produces cups on par with the EK as some suggest, I might pull the trigger and hope for a motorized niche-esque filter grinder at some point in the future. Thanks, love your vids 🙏🏼
They’re VERY similar, I preferred the C40 by a *hair* on more sweetness and a touch more “complexity” but this was a tough call- the Apex also produced stellar cups. those two were my favorites of the bunch tested. Regarding the EK comparison, I thought it was BS- that is, until I had the C40 here after years of hearing that line. The C40 really is that enjoyable
Solid video Michael! Keep grinding...LOL 🤣💪
If you ignore price and effort of grinding, how would you rate the Ode vs OE Apex? (I’m interested first in taste and low grind retention) I guess I’d also be interested to know where you’d rank the C40 in there since you mentioned these 3 specifically.
FLAVOR- They’re VERY similar, I preferred the C40 by a hair on more sweetness and a touch more “complexity” but this was a tough call- the Apex also produced stellar cups. Those two were my favorites of the bunch tested. EFFORT- I had a tough time with the Apex, it takes a lot of time but not a lot of arm strength (I am impatient). I don’t know if this was my unit or is a quirk of the unit itself
It feels as if you’re staring into my soul. Subbed.
You're an excellent speaker and it's clear you do your research thoroughly. Please just change the font and leave photos up a little longer.
Great feedback, thank you!
woww love this channel man! great content, great quality, definitely subbing 😻 one minor and irrelevant critique from a casual youtube user: maybe keep that camera a little further away for a wider shot…it’s a tad daunting with you staring so close hahaha but this is just me offering some very picky commentary. love this man, keep it up!!!
Ask any biologist, it’s neesh (like seesh) or nich (like pitch). Not nish!! You say it right a few times!! Haha
Entomologist here. He's right!
Isn’t this subjective to the individual’s taste? Who’s to say the Ode grinder isn’t good for a lot of people and makes a decent cup of coffee? I’ve been using the Breville Smart Grinder Pro for my pour overs for several years and love it. I feel using different pour over methods is where you get control over the coffee taste you want more so than the grinder. Using the April Brewer, V60, Stagg [X] or my Chemex allows me to vary my coffee taste in the cup.
I’m looking at different grinders as alternates but not convinced spending over $300 or even $400 on a grinder will give me a better cup of coffee.
What are your thoughts on the df64?
Gathering them now! They’ll surface eventually, not sure if it’ll be in a standalone video or with other content
@@michael_j_fabian awesome I look forward to it!
The clear answer is the DF64 with SSP Unimodal. I have been pulling some insane espresso shots with it and the two filter brews I have done with it did not disappoint. Plus, unlike the Ode, you do not have to worry about the DF64 having issues with SSP burrs since the motor is a tank and a huge majority of people all over seem to use SSP as the burrs of choice with no issues.
This is something Im very very curious about and how it stacks up to say, the niche alone or the niche and a fellow ode, though obviously having both is notably more expensive
What do we need to see in the ideal grinder:
-vertical burrs-
-lack of retention-
-larger burrs- I agree with this one but if you have a dual grind system into there you do not need more surface to cut because you pre-cut the beans-
I do not agree with people who complain about size on the counter, the taste is more important than that, people who seak little objects wont chase the best taste, they will trade some, or sacrifice on taste.
And the final winner grinder based on all those request is simple, it's the Bentwood vertical 63. It even has it's own double thickness burrs cast steel.
Why not create your own product
The Niche Zero of filter is already here…it’s what some would know as “the Niche Zero of espresso”.
Seriously, just slap a 360° grind dial on it, instead of the espresso-only range of the current design, and you’ve got it.
The Niche Zero is a superb filter grinder, you just need to stop seeing the “50” as an end and instead see it as a beginning…👌
I’m sorry, I couldn’t get past the “Nish” pronunciation… it’s “neesh” 😭
Thank you!!!! My same first thoughts. But the content in the video is great! If you can get over the pronunciation.