As a non-pilot, my take-away from this video is this: My car's 140 mph speedometer doesn't mean that it's a good idea to try to drive my car at 140 mph.
if you hit fog on a motorway and up flashed warning 60 you wouldn't think it meant stay above 60, thats why we have LIMIT , BUT either min max should be stated ex. MIN 275kmh next to the pilot speed, thats why the aviation authority changed it because it was open to error
And remember, too, the higher up you are, the farther you have to go to reach land should something happen. I don't know that "41ing" it would necessarily make me giddy. I write that as a non-pilot.
@@The_ZeroLine Not quite. You MAY think that there's no one out there, but you could be wrong. Saved my car a couple of times this reflex of signalling without looking/thinking. There WAS a car in the blind spot and the driver hit the horn when he saw the right signal. Also I'm trying to avoid cutting through a big parking lot just because is shorter the route, you never know who else is cutting on another intersecting route. It's safer to use the marked routes. Usually we think that we looked everywhere, that is safe, that we perfectly control the car, but even the greatest like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton proved us that we are only human and mistakes happen.
I think one reason why they may not have treated the situation more seriously initially is because they felt guilty for having caused this and were hoping to solve the issue quietly so they wouldn't have to pay such high consequences. Of course, eventually they paid the highest of all consequences.
I think they were sadly mistaken on that. Even if they had been able to recover, I think the incident still would have been investigated and the CVR/FDR would have shown what they did.
You get the sense they were trying to downplay, even cover up their situation over fears of reprisals over their actions. I really feel like they were so worried about potentially losing their jobs it ended up costing them their lives.
I am a nurse, and I think your point at the end is so important. In my profession, there are so many times where nobody is watching, and I see nurses cut corners or do things against procedure. And just like here, tragic fatalities can result when people are being cavalier and not thinking about safety. I am not a pilot and never will be, but I love watching your videos because it always motivates me to act "like a pilot" in my job and be as safe as possible.
If nobody was watching and you had some fancy machine not hooked up to a patient, would you not maybe look through the menu of the machine to see what it could do that you didn't know about?
@@thewhitefalcon8539 I don't mean a lack of knowledge of a machine. I mean things like not staying in the room for the required amount of time after giving a patient a sedating drug. Many times I've seen nurses administer meds and immediately leave the room to go to their next patient. Most of the time no consequences happen, but sometimes there is a patient who might stop breathing, and then the nurse is gone. That's why the rules are important, even if 99% of the time you don't see a consequence.
I became a dispatcher for Pinnacle right after this crash. It was still very raw and fresh. We had to watch the recreation of the flight as filmed in a simulator. They really wanted to drive it home that this wasnt a joke.
I was an airline pilot for 23 years, a Captain for 10 years on the Airbus 330/340/350 and this is such a sobering and sad story since the loss of life was totally avoidable. I commend you on your clear presentation, enthralling for me as a pilot and yet easily understandable for laymen. I learned about core lock for the first time (as it was not applicable to my engine types). It's so true about maintaining SOPs at all times and I spent the whole video thinking, "They are really asking for trouble here." It's a terrible shame they didn't live to learn their lesson. My son wants to be a pilot and encourage him to watch more of your excellent videos which I have no doubt will help him to become a better, safer pilot. Thank you.
Even as a non flying noob who has played a few basic flying computer games and read the odd pilota story books it was obvious they were heading into trouble. 150kts at 41k ft angle of 20°+ nose up?! Screams of a stall to me. My dad had mentioned something called coffin corner to me many years ago when talking about stalling at high altitude. I also read 'fate is the hunter'. Great tales of flying. I thoroughly enjoyed this video but like u say it screamed disaster from the start and got worse as it progressed.
@@psirvent8 Was their crime so great as to deserve the death penalty? I don't think so. They were a couple of young guys having irresponsible fun. Haven't we all done so at some point? If anything they deserved to get fired, not death.
@@2811JPR, yes, exactly. We were all in a condition to do something stupid for fun. Reprimand and retraining is supposed to be penalty for this. Stupid situation they were not supposed to do? Yes. Sadly it had such a consequences. Luckily other civilians were not injured.
@@stevenross-watt8640 man they were so young and paid ultimate price. Guy well said It’s great tragedy they didn’t live and learn from it to tell tale. :(
I got tears in my eyes when you said the pilot said “don’t put down the landing gear.” They made horrible mistakes they sadly did not recover from. I feel sorry for their families.
The biggest thing to learn here, and I think this applies to any profession, is to be honest and transparent. The pilots were so worried about getting in trouble that they ended up getting themselves killed and endangering the lives of others. It always ends badly when you don’t own up to mistakes and start rectifying them
they didnt do it with passengers and when it was all over the only thing they said was we cant hit any houses. gotta love em. should you push a machine? no. theres rules for a reason. but can i blame someone who does? no. and in the end they showed their quality.
@@markheinle6319 - Once they'd already more or less sealed their fate by their earlier mistakes and deception, yes, they went out nobly, trying not to injure anyone on the ground. That's a positive. But they did still crash in a residential area, so they succeeded partly by luck at that part. Perhaps they saw the yard / shed and managed to aim for it, perhaps it was just luck that they didn't plow right into a house with people in it. But the key fact remains that they could have avoided getting to that point if they'd declared a dual-engine-out emergency sooner, and had folks on the ground helping to work the problem. Someone might have noticed sooner that they'd better glide towards an airfield in case the engines couldn't be restarted. Or they might have noticed if they weren't busy thinking about deception, and thus could ask ATC for a vector. (In an alternate history, we'd still have to assume they didn't immediately realize the importance of keeping IAS > 240kts, and still would have gotten their engines core locked. After still stalling trying to maintain FL410 instead of letting the stick pusher do its job and trading some altitude for speed and then telling ATC about it; aviate, navigate, communicate. IDK, maybe they intentionally wanted to see exactly what would happen when the plane couldn't hold the altitude, so they basically stalled it intentionally and assumed recovery would be no problem. I hope they weren't that intentionally reckless, but even if they were, that didn't have to be fatal when it turned out to be a lot more dangerous than they anticipated, with 41k feet of altitude to work with for stall recovery. Still, a 29 degree pitch up? I hope a CRJ-2200 is immune to a "deep stall" where the control surfaces also stall, making recovery potentially impossible even with plenty of height.)
@@markheinle6319 I disagree, a plane was lost and two men died. But for shear luck innocent people on the ground could easily have been killed. What happened was both unprofessional and dangerous. Had they survived I doubt they would be flying today. RIP.
Exactly right. That’s why they focused on trying to start the engines for such a long time, instead of trying to prepare for an unpowered landing at one of the many airports within their glide range. These guys were so focused on not losing their jobs, they ended up losing their lives.
@@markheinle6319 “can i blame someone who does?” uh yes you definitely can lol they were reckless and they trashed a plane and died as a consequence. just bc they didn’t kill anyone doesn’t mean they didn’t mess up
The painful thing about this for me isn't really the actions that led to the engine failures - that was recoverable from - it's what came next. I suspect they felt embarrassed about what had happened, which led to them not being completely honest with ATC. Had they been more honest more quickly, they could have got out of this situation, but they weren't and it cost them their lives. It's tragic.
i truly cant believe it. all they had to do was start the fucking engines! They should know by heart! the first thing i ever did in the sim was "what happens if i cut my engines at altitude" *cuts engine* "surely i can restart" "now lets stall and dive a 747" you can do allot at 41k (edit) AHH I just realized they didnt pay any attention to temp. what is with these pilots and inability to notice things they should be noticing. Shit, I even monitor the temp in my vehicle when the gauge works . so far out of 20 accidents ive seen, only 2 were actual un-avoidable accidents. the rest make me very upset and actually. I want to be pilot just so I can fill a chair that a moron might fill otherwise.
@@Wtfinc Saying that "X happened because the pilots were morons" is comforting because it lets you say "that would never happen to me," but it's generally not true. And commercial aviation is so safe because most of the parties involved, particularly those designing the systems within which pilots fly, take the exact opposite approach: they assume that everybody makes errors and design the system to handle that as best as possible. You never, ever get resilience by telling humans, "don't make stupid mistakes."
@@Curt_Sampson im scared of flying now more than ever. you just never know who's going to be in the pilots seat. I would rather pilot myself. Whateverthe smallest twin engine seaplane maybe that can get me across the atlantic.
@@Wtfinc Yeah, I'm just terrified in general, even though I know it's irrational considering I drive plenty. As far as piloting myself goes, well then I'd just be scared because the smaller types of planes I would be able to (potentially, if I got a really well-paying job) get my hands on don't have nearly the level of safety features that commercial airliners have, so it's kind of a catch-22... I don't know if I'll ever visit Europe again, but at least I flew across the Atlantic a lot of times as a kid... which kinda makes me feel like my luck would run out if I did it again (even though I know that's yet another completely irrational fallacy)
The way you impart these stories of aviation tragedies is done with great empathy and little judgement. You do not use sensationalism, you stick to data and paint a very clear picture accessible to the layperson. I’m a very nervous flyer and watching your videos has actually lessened my fears. You do a great service to pilots and passengers. Thank you.
@@omarhamani2126 In this case it seems warranted. These guys did like 15 things wrong… had they only done 14 they would have lived…. They might have been fired, but they would have lived
Me too. Seems counterintuitive but I feel less anxious about issues when flying and more confidence in flight teams to handle them and my safety when flying. Knowledge is the antidote to fear and I’m happy I stumbled across this channel for several reasons. Cheers.
I think what Gavin meant is that there is little judgement of the pilot's skill, character, etc., only an objective evaluation of their actions. Conversely in videos where he covers events that ended more favorably thanks to pilots' abilities he has been very complimentary.
@@minnesotajack1 And remember, too, the higher up you are, the farther you have to go to reach land should something happen. I don't know that "41ing" it would necessarily make me giddy.
I have 2000 hours on the CRJ-200. Its a beautiful aircraft which can do things any other aircraft cant do. I've also done a test flight with just a captain and an engineer on board where we cut an engine inflight during climb and relit it using the APU bleeds and continued climb to 31,000ft. After that we performed other emergency procedures and also cut the other engine. We relit the engine using windmill restart at 300knots. Also, we've climbed to 40,000ft on a ferry flight and it flew it like a champ. It's sad to see this video because the crew weren't prepared to face such a difficult situation which i feel is due to the lack of training. Thanks for the video, it was very insightful for not just pilots but others as well. Just wanted to people to know that this aircraft is safe and its a joy for pilots to fly.
Oddly enough this incident demonstrates what makes aviation such a safe way to travel. It would have been so easy to write of this incident as a couple of knuckle heads goofing off and move on, but instead the investigators really dug deep into the causes and came away with some important lessons that could benefit the safety of all flights. I'm sure today just about every CRJ-200 pilot knows about core lock and how to prevent it because of this crash.
Bradley Dobie: Agreed. First, it's comforting that in the vast majority of significant air accidents, multiple things had to go wrong. Second, it's VERY good that the incidents are investigated carefully and seriously and so many good recommendations are made. What is NOT good is how often many recommendations are ignored by airlines and plane manufacturers wanting to save money, or just ignoring the recommendations due to other priorities. Humans -- it's amazing things work as well as they do, given how fallible we all are, and as careless as far too many of us are, at times.
As a former CRJ pilot, that's the first example of what not to do in a CRJ when you join the initial Type rating. Very good video and accurate explanation about what happen.
Well said. Honestly I don't think there is a single industry as dedicated to learning from mistakes as the aviation industry. Pretty sure the world could be a much better place if we all tried to do the same, no matter which field.
This crash reminds me of the terrified feeling you get the seconds before an accident. I’ve only had this happen once when I was younger. I used to be a huge speed junky on country roads. One time when the roads were wet, I tried taking an on-ramp as fast as I normally do in the dry and the car lost all traction and understeered nearly off the road into a drainage ditch. I had assumed that ABS and stability control would save me, but those safety systems can’t undo a bad decision. I was lucky it regained traction just before hitting the gravel. But it felt like an eternity. People sometimes feel like they’re invincible until they meet their own mortality.
Felt the same feeling while cycling... I was taking a descent at maximum speed, since the weather conditions were perfect and I know that road really really well, when suddenly before a sharp 90 degrees turn I felt fine gravel under my wheels, just where the usual braking spot was. I thought I was not gonna slow down in time and I was gonna fall (at the side of the turn there is about 2 meters of flat grass peeceeding an extremely steep 5/10 m drop to the forest in that point. Luckily I managed to slow down just in time on the grass at the side. Apparently, it had rained some days before and the water had deposited the gravel just in that point
Even though these incidents are gruesome and they might seem like a macabre interest, the technical details never fail to fascinate me. The knowledge that mr mentour has is astonishing and proves his dedication and love of aviation.
They are fascinating but, I admit, I _am_ macabre. Death is kaleidoscopic in its forms and factors. The great adventure. The undiscovered country. I want to learn from the dead about death because I won’t learn anything about my own.
Don't get why it would seem macabre. He explains more about the mistakes that led to the crash. It's about the aircraft and the (clearly not followed) proper handling and flying of craft. Not necessarily about death.
There’s always been some shady stuff coming out of the Little Rock airport, and especially the smaller ones that dot the surrounding area. I’m not saying that there’s a lot of drug trafficking going on there, but who knows 🤷🏽♀️
I also admire how restrained Mentour Pilot is when talking about the deceased pilots. It would be easy to focus on the unprofessional things that they did, but he remains so respectful, even when their errors are apparent.
I was on a CRJ-900 once with only 5 passengers, including myself. It was rather creepy actually. None of the normal sounds of air travel, other than the engines. They were the only noise. No rustling of cloths, no talking, no kids, no coughing or sneezing, no creaking of seats, nothing from the galleys. Just the engines. It was very early in the morning too, so dark outside and the cabin crew had the lights off. Never experienced anything like it in over 100 flights.
i was going to be the only passenger once but at the last boarding call, a couple showed up. When boarding, they made me wait until my group (C) was called. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm not sure how I ended up watching this vid but the timing was spot on. As a Healthcare Educator, trying to get across to students the importance of always behaving in a professional manner as there can always be unforeseen consequences for not doing so, well its hard to put old heads on young shoulders and not just seeming like an old buzzkill. I used this video to emphasise the point and it worked brilliantly. You could see it clicking with the students from early enough on, albeit they also initially thought Id lost the plot using an air crash investigation for healthcare ethics learning. It could help one of these kids and their patients one day so much appreciated!!
It's not really the same, it as the pilots here were testing illegal drugs on their selves.. Their goal from the beginning is to behave unprofessionally. Had there been any other passenger on board nothing would have happened.
Well done. I think keeping professional and following procedures even when it feels redundant is the main takeaway here. There are more though: -This crew (unfortunately there are more examples) most likely was ashamed of their mistakes and tried to hide it from ATC. It feels understandable because they very well might've lost their jobs after this anyway. Yet they probably could've saved their lives if they had communicated their situation openly without hesitating. -Learn from mistakes and look for multiple things that went wrong. We tend to find "the reason" quickly and stop looking afterwards. When something goes wrong badly, it's almost never one isolated mistake that caused it. The way to improve is to keep searching and analyzing. It's really amazing that they dug so deep to find problems with checklists and the engine even though the blame is on the pilots. Sorry for the text wall, maybe that was more for myself. All the best!
@@flo0778 My husband and I were the only passengers on a flight when the two pilots decide to go off course and see a gold domed house in north Texas. They turned the plane sideways and flew a circle around that house. We were out of our seats at the door of the cockpit when they did that. We both fell and I just remember looking out the window at the gold domed house going around in circles! So, so bad.
When you explained what the "keeping the gear up" line meant I became very sad. And then the pilots' last words were concern and regret about likely hitting houses...I started tearing up. Then you said that there were no other injuries and I just started sobbing. I don't know why, but some mix of the pilots' final thoughts being concern for the lives of those they would likely hit and the revelation that somehow no one other than the pilots were harmed just completely broke me. This story, for whatever reason, has had the most emotional affect on me out of any of the videos I have watched from you.
@@lollol-en9xx Exactly. This has escalated so quickly. It was like in a horror movie. First everyone has fun, then problems slowly appear, but they discard them and in the end they fight for their life and lose.
Even though these pilots arguably acted more foolishly than most other accident pilots, I just love them. It reminds me of the sad old cowboy ballad the streets of Laredo.
I used to watch air crash investigation all the time but I much prefer Mentour these days, the video quality is always top notch and everything is well explained.
it's so sad to me because, while their actions were really unprofessional and should have NEVER happened, you can also see how much the pilots love aircraft and flying, and how passionate they were. RIP.
it is very sad, i totally see why they did what they did, they were young and inexperienced and really loved flying so much and were excited to get to "play" with this aircraft while it was just them. they totally bonded over this and probably would have been best friends if this didnt happen. its hear breaking but i respect them both that in the end they were more worried about people on the ground than themselves.... i hope that they are now at peace, and that they didnt die feeling like they were about to kill people on the ground because they didnt end up killing anyone but themselves unintentionally.
And how they were working right to the end. No cries of fear, no accusations, professional all the way. A team. As an aside the plan to take the plane up so much higher made me think of the great book and film, The Right Stuff, where although he's flying a completely different aircraft, Chuck Yeager/Sam Shepard takes that plane to and past the limit, in his case the edge of space. The plane cut out, went haywire. Engines stopped, it's cartwheeling through air while he tries to get it normalized. He was lucky of course but he pushed the envelope as the two pilots did too. The love of flying and wheeling through footless halls of air.
@@margaretcastell9429 "Professional??" You can't be serious. Their "professionalism" is what got them into this instance in the first place. Their lack of professionalism explains how badly they botched the emergency they created. Idiots.
@@margaretcastell9429 Being afraid or as you put it, “cries of fear” is a normal human reaction, especially given the 4 failed restarts and the impending impact with terrain. It wouldn’t have been unprofessional for them to be fearful or cry out given the circumstances. We really need to stop normalizing that having a lack of emotions or not showing emotions is a good thing.
I have nothing to do with aviation or flying, excepting my absolute love of these stories, the technical details and the physics and amazing pilots we hear about. I live for these videos!
look, with respect, they did not have that much time at all to contemplate this. it's not like they were in a space ship and having 2 years to make a decision. their attention was in getting the engines started and the landing.
@@ursodermatt8809 I suspect they had enough time to consider whether they would be fired, because the Captain lied about the situation of the engines...
@@ursodermatt8809 you're not making any sense. First you say 'they didn't contemplate consequences because they didn't have enough time' then when it's pointed out their behaviour suggests that they probably were aware of it you come up with this bullshit 'lying is only possible if you have a lot of time'
What struck me was the relative youth of both pilots, especially the 23 y/o. Both reverted to immature behaviors as if they were at a party or in a movie. It's a amazing they opted to go so far out of acceptability as pilots and with company property, seemingly unaware of the potential consequences, particularly when safety was, and is the hallmark of aviation, and which has impacted health care and other industries. Great explanation and teaching as usual.
I agree. If they were test pilots who were requested to test the capability of the craft during certain maneuvers then their excitement and sense of adventure would be appropriate. Playing with other people's expensive machinary to the extent that it killed two people and might have killed hundreds more is completely unacceptable.
@@vanyastaleva415 True enough, but I didn't see anti-social personalities here so much as two very young men thinking, as young men do, that they were invincible and that they could solve any problem.
Great video - as usual. Peter, you mentioned how this accident impacted aircrew training. On the engine design side it also resulted in some additional flight testing of turbofan engines, not just the GE models. At Honeywell (TPE331, TFE731, CFE738, HTF7000) we had to perform what we called “drift down” tests that reproduced the conditions experienced by the ill-fated CRJ. The engine under test would be installed on our flying test bed (a 757-200) as a third engine. We then flew the engine to 45,000 feet and slowed the aircraft to 180 knots indicated with the test engine at max continuous thrust. Instantaneously we shutdown the test engine and began a controlled descent, initially trying to hold 180 knots. During the descent at low speed we observed the N1 and N2 rotor speeds to ensure the the engine did not lock-up. As we got lower approaching FL200 we slightly increased airspeed and then relit the test engine using an assisted start procedure (cross-bleed start). For a while we were doing this for production engines to demonstrate that each engine was free of “core-lockup”. Eventually a ground test cell run-in procedure was developed so that we could ensure an engine would not lock-up. Your explanation of the mechanism causing the lock-up was great. The lock-up potential in a turbofan engine can be exacerbated by shaft-bow where the differential cooling between the case and the rotating group causes the shaft to experience high compressive loads causing it to bow slightly. The rotor clearances with the case can then become negative and the engine literally grinds to a stop. Thank you for your tireless efforts with your channel. I love these videos that you create since they clearly explain some very complex topics. You also emphasis one of the hallmarks of aviation - accidents happen, but when they do,a tremendous effort is made to understand the root cause and fix the problem.
To stay at 41k feet. -The nose is pitched up -The engines are almost maxed out and are in the red -The speed is decreasing This would be an indication that the plane is struggling.
In a broad sense yes, but at the same not not so much. In my work I'm often dealing with a lot of complexity when things go wrong. When nothing is working, I can change my priorities and/or reassess by strategies. But a pilot might not have that luxury, if you're compentent and get it right you're like Sully, the hero on the Hundson, get it all wrong and you end like these two. By taking short cuts based on likely causes, I can usually save a lot of time. But when I get it wrong, all I've done is waste time, i'm not going to kill anybody.
During a recent simulator session (A330) the sim instructor decided to have a little fun with us (it wasn’t part of the program). After failing one engine overhead Mont Blanc, he failed our second engine as well. I immediately started looking and heading for a runway. Geneva was on our right hand side. My focus was on flying and getting to a runway, my colleague immediately started to try and recover systems. We never got our engines back, but my colleague sure tried. He did manage to start the APU and we regained all instrumentation and were in full control and communication. We glided into a safe landing on runway 22 at Geneva and came to a safe standstill on the runway. I hope this never happens to me in real life, but I sure want to be ready to handle it, if it does.
Im not a pilot, but I appreciate the fact that aviation as a industry really learns from the mistakes of the past. Its important in any profession to understand why we do things, and just as importantly, why we dont. I appreciate the fact that you as a pilot in training are seeking out information regarding the breakdown of past mistakes, bad decisions and mechanical failures. Ironically, watching these videos and then reading the comments of all the pilots in the comments makes me feel safer. These videos are entertainment for most, but theres valuable information here for anyone in the profession. I think theres always something to be learned and in this specific scenario of a pilot. Knowing specific accident breakdowns and being able to recall what caused them, what worked in fixing the issues, what didnt work and why it all happened in the first place seems so valuable. Thank you!
As we have seen even in some of the videos that Mentour Pilot has made, simulator training of unusual or even "idiotic" situations could potentially be the difference between life and death when you are unlucky and end up being that one in a million and the seemingly impossible happens, so Im all for unusual excercises :)
Can you replicate the flight path of flight 77 - the commercial aircraft that hit the Pentagon on 9/11? 100m high for 1km. Firstly you have to get into that crazy level then maintain it....as an amateur and on your first attempt? No one can do it in a simulator. Can you? Can anyone? It's a mystery still. It'll solve 2.3 trillion questions. Post links of the achievement if you can. Peace
I had a fighter pilot instructor once for ppl training in a Cessna150 he said watch this and proceeded to show his skills as acrobatic moves go. I reminded him that this plane was abit low on oil , and the plane & we may not survive the toss. Ruined both of our temptation to joy ride at 25 years old each. But Im still here. Lost track of him. @1982. Now 2024. Keep the blue side up always if you have that choice.
I think this is a case of two personality types that fed each others weaknesses. Once they started "playing" they just kept pushing each other to go further.
If even one of the pilots was a more "strict" the other might not have been emboldened to try such a risky move. All that talk mentour does about CRM really makes this one hit harder because I NEVER would have expected this out of pilots.
@@GeneralKenobiSIYE These pilots are under my protection. If I see another “lol” out of you Im gonna start making jokes about Qui Gon Jinn. 41,000 feet means that they have high ground status for a while. So its over.
This was so interesting. I am a female, 67, have no training in anything - I am just a cleaner. But this had me hooked. I think it was the no nonsense attitude and total profession way it was put across.
Don't say JUST a cleaner You're not JUST existing, you are a valuable human being with everything that comes attached to it Don't devalue yourself please
I love the fact you go into a much more in depth analysis than TV shows like "Aircraft Investigations" that are dumber down for the average viewer. Your insight and technical knowledge of the facts surrounding these accidents makes for compelling viewing!
Quality is going from BEST to BEST + 1 after every episode is what I can say. No adjectives can describe this amazing work! I am enjoying a lot. Thank you!!!
I am an eye surgeon who as a teenager was a pilot of a 172 Cessna. The lessons I learned flying have influenced every aspect of my life. I think we rarely do things in life that don't have a "do over" safety card. The myriad of things that can happen while flying require that you be prepared to address them in a methodical and previously thought out way. The checklist before take off to the checklist in an engine failure or weather emergency require that you face the fact that you are not going to have a "do over" if you get this wrong. In surgery every detail should be thought out for the many possible issues you will encounter. Some are routine and you are familiar with how to address them. Some are more rare and when you see them begin to unfold you need a checklist to adjust and to keep 'flying" and to not begin to just try ideas. Indeed the mantra of my Alaska bush pilot instructor was "fly the plane". He meant of course keep making decisions based on the reality of the moment that you can react to. He would turn the fuel tank knob to the off position and the engine would stop. Looking at the propeller he would turn and say "what are you going to do?" Fly the plane..so drop the nose and keep my airspeed, look for a place to land and direct the plane in that direction, attempt to restart the engine, call mayday, maintain gliding speed into the wind if possible, line up with the field or road way, drop flaps, push the nose down to maintain airspeed, then attempt restart, then put the wheels on the ground, except he would flip the tank and the engine restarted and I would climb out a little pissed but smarter. He would say any landing you walk away from is a good landing, don't worry about how it looks or the condition of the aircraft. So I have the ability to take cases that would have led to slower recovery or visual problems and have the patient looking the next day as if it was an uneventful case. But this is from recognizing that I can land the plane in every situation if I keep flying by the checklist that fits the situation that is evolving. Here it would appear that they were at first covering up the 41 club errors as they didn't follow the basic rule that I learned as a 16 year old. Nose down maintain airspeed, then look for a place to land, for them ATC would have provided that, point the plane in that direction then attempt to restart and ultimately land safely on a runway well within reach. The lessons of flying can apply to many critical situations you have in your life. Keep making choices, focus on a achievable goal, stay positive keep flying the plane!
This is so fascinating to hear. Thank you for sharing. I have always been so terrified of getting out of my box and doing things that made me scared and I knew I was taking a risk. Flying is one. I get sick to my stomach from the turbulence and get clammy. I continue to remain calm and know that gods got me. The Pilots are doing all that they know to protect me. We take risks everyday. Driving down the road, flying or riding in a plane. Leaving home in general. I thinks its crazy how he put you through those procedures but he had to make sure you would do what you're supposed to for the safety of yourself and others. Thanks for sharing.
I think your comment is as valuable and entertaining as the video itself. And that’s greatly enhanced by a clear writing style that indicates that you took something more than biology and chemistry. My father is a pilot. He was also a flight instructor. You helped me to better understand what I thought I knew….
Richard, I have the highest regard for eye surgeons. Almost two years ago now I damaged my right eye in a full-blame stupid accident in my kitchen, when I managed to bang my head very hard on the kitchen table in the dark. (Don't ask!😏). Long story short I caused a macular-hole in the right eye. Everything viewed through my right eye when I closed the left was horribly distorted. This wonderful eye-surgeon implanted a gas bubble in the macula which had the effect over time of pulling the damaged tissues together. He did tell me that the eye would never again be as good as it was before the accident, but I would say that it is something in the region of 90 percent as good. For this I am so grateful. His assistant also did the cataract in that eye as part of the operation. How you guys actually do all this what must be so minuscule and delicate work in and at the back of people's eyes is quite beyond me - huge respect.
The 2 pilots, in the last few seconds, kept the gear up and no flaps, so as to minimize fatalities on the ground, but, at the same time, removing any chance they, themselves, had of surviving. In the end their last decision was, incredibly, noble.
@@livenfree Be advised, I am not a pilot and have barely any idea on flight mechanics, but: My guess would be that because the flaps increase lift they would also reduce the braking force on the ground, and therefore increase the distance the plane travels across the ground before coming to a stop. A longer distance on the ground means higher chance to hit a building and/or injure people. Same reasons go for the landing gear.
"Conjecture" pure conjecture... as to pilots' "considerations about affecting other folks." I.e. the collisions would also affect the plane's survivability.😛
@@semurobo Not quite. Lowering the flaps increases low speed lift, provided there's thrust. They also increase drag. Without thrust, the drag slows them down a lot more. They wanted to fly past the houses instead of coming down on top of them.
I am from Mentour pilot Petter Patreon crew. One year into channel. If you have a surface meningioma there's a good recovery rate. I met a guy 1971 who had it and complete recuperation. It took a short time to heal. Don't shy àway, Thank you for sharing because there is a stigma when some people hear about a braiñ disturbançe. They associate it with meñtal health. My friend was a subway dispatcher in NY USA who also recovered from a brain surgery in 1980. He still worked for several years afterwards and retired at 67 years old. God bless you & good luck.
@@Zwangsworkaholic Extremely unprofessional behavior. Yes, I might call my friend, going out for the night out on the town, "dude". But I would never address my coworker on the flight deck as "dude" or "bro" or whatever, regardless of how familiar I am with him. It is extremely dangerous, and sets up a casual attitude, seriously putting "professionalism" in executing ones duties in serious jeopardy!!
@@fhuber7507 You must be psychic, because you read my mind. I have this mental Bingo card I use whenever I read a Florida Man story (or those of his cousins from other states), and under the column, "Things said by the victim" are "watch this" and "hold ma' beer". (One of the other columns, "Events leading up to the Event", has the "we were sitting around drinking" and "It sounded like a good idea at the time".) I call the card, "Accident Investigation Bingo".
I was a gliding instructor for about seven or eight years (it was a while ago) and ended up with something approaching 2,000 launches on gliders. All the time, I had this vague feeling that my limitations were much greater than the placard limitations on the aircraft. I think it made me get out of certain situations very early. Perhaps earlier than strictly necessary, but I had a highly developed sense of danger. Complacency and overconfidence are deadly in many situations, but the air is particularly unforgiving of them. I used to read the gliding accident reports regularly, and my usual reaction was to think "I wouldn't have done that!" Followed soon after by the thought "Actually, I can imagine a situation where I might have done that." An older instructor said to me that he read the reports thinking to himself "nearly done that, nearly done that, done that but got away with it ..." Very good video.
As a glider pilot, you can't throttle up any engine to get speed. It is essential to put the nose down until you get the speed you need. We are doing training for this even near the ground in case of cable breaks during launch. Put the nose down until the speed builds up. We do this at 300 feet, even at 100. These guys had 40.000 feet for free and didn't manage to keep up their speed! Reminds me of the Air France 447 crash.
@@chrisehmke1651 But cant you stall a plane so badly that you lose controll over rudders? Like planes diving tail first and tumbel spin or eny other oriantaion thats not forward? Or should you know how to fly a akward faceing plane? Im not a pilot, but i like planes and would like to get my licens one day.
@@rambo8863 airplanes are configured so that the center of gravity (CG) is always forward of the center of lift. That way they are inherently stable as long as the pilot does not screw it up.
The fact that your final moments may lead to you being remembered as being unprofessional and having poor airmanship should be pretty strong motivation to quit screwing around.
It seems to me, that they made a series of bad decisions, after the screwing around. That was fatal, not the screwing around itself. They had manny opportunities to avoid the accident.
In my eyes they went admirably. They spent their last moments trying to correct their mistakes and make sure they didn’t take anymore lives in the process. Its commendable. Regardless of how “avoidable” the situation may or may not have been. Literally everything is avoidable with hindsight. The NTSB is useless without crashes to conduct investigations on. Humans have been progressing through trial and error for over 2 million years. Apparently all that means is a lot of people have to die in order for safety to actually be a thing.
I’m not a pilot but your program mesmerizes me every time. You are a fantastic communicator and l always learn something even as a 65 year old grandmothers. Thank you.😊
My friend was an ATC and worked with the ATC working with this flight. I knew this was in his air traffic region and was describing this flight to him. He said she was badly shaken by what happened. She had cleared them to fly at the higher altitude, but wasn't responsible for them goofing off.
Wow. Often women suffer some guilt ... enabling. Of course, law and common understanding in this as in professional situations find atc guiltless in this case. Human nature is what it is.
The controller could not have said "no" to them. There wasn't a reason not to. There wasn't any traffic above them. The pilots are responsible for the aircraft.
@@QueenCallisto ...guess you know more than the rest of us... Maybe she dint know the make of the aircraft ...maybe the cap sounded sure snd determined . tough job ...and i only worked for an ex controller after Reagan fired em all... She wuz a good boss. But she woulda felt bad. Not to the point of guilt but bad.
"ah, we've had a non-zero amount of engine failures."... These guys ended up losing their lives, basically because they knew they had messed up big time, and that they're pretty much already fired, careers over once the stall happened. I think it was the "we're already completely screwed" mindset caused by their first series of mistakes, that caused them to then just continue making bad decisions. That gear up I don't want to go into houses comment is extra sad, because it's basically the pilot having a moment of "We've already killed ourselves with our bad decisions, let's try to not kill anyone else."
@@hualani6785 While it is basic training to avoid populated areas, they had already ignored so much of their basic training getting into this situation that them making a point to say they weren't going to deploy the gear to minimize risk to people had an impact on me. It was basically the point where they spoke into existence that they were definitely going to die but they wanted to do it in a way that only affected them.
Would they definately have lost their jobs, as many comments suggest, if they had properly communicated dual engine failure and did a successful emergency landing with the proper priority?
I’m so glad there were no casualties on the ground, and so sorry they didn’t live to know they avoided harming others. This is such a sad story, even though others have more loss of life. I’m glad they do more high altitude training for stalls.
I think that this is why I was so broken by the statement that somehow no one else died. Their last thoughts were that they had failed to avoid innocent casualties. They will never know that they managed to avoid killing anyone but themselves. Somehow, despite how blatantly it is that this was entirely their fault, I feel the most sadness towards them than I have out of any of the other pilots that died in other accidents that were almost entirely out of their control.
I have watched this video a couple of times since you released it, this time it was because it Autoplayed the next video whilst I was answering the door, & I just left it running, because I love to listen to your voice - I find your voice comforting, your knowledge interesting & your enthusiasm heartwarming. Each time I’ve heard this story I have taken something different away with me - the first time was the impact of the tragic outcome, which was so obviously avoidable if the pilots had just been professional, the second time was the aerodynamic aspects you detailed, but this time it was your compassion in your presentation for the facts. Thank you Petter, thank you for your knowledge, your passion for aviation & thank you for having the type of voice that just draws the listener in.
I am a Dr and specialist in anaesthesia and like pilots we have hours and hours of boredom and occasional seconds to minutes of terror. The world of anaesthesia shares many parallels with the aviation industry and there is a lot to learn from your videos which make me a better Doctor. Thank you.
Another physician (not a pilot at all), and had the exact same thought (hours of routine, minutes of emergency). Also that both medicine and flying are fields where mistakes must be avoided at all costs, and how to address/avoid when humans can make mistakes.
@@MentourPilot I spent 17 years working as a firefighter and paramedic. Also been a pilot since I was 16. I think another often overlooked aspect to all of this is the neurophysiology controlling how your brain is handling being inundated with critical tasks. We can't actually multi-task, we are jumping from one to the other without actually completing it. So to combat this, you develop an internal flowchart for handling different situations. If this, do this. And you train those responses over and over and over until they become muscle memory. After a while, handling chaotic quickly evolving situations becomes much more second nature. If we want pilots to respond in a way that is most conducive to as safe a landing as possible, then there needs to be more time spent training, and not just tabletop exercises, but simulations and in air stall training with certified instructors. One of the best things I ever did was seek out a trainer who would walk you through different stalls, then show you how to recover. By doing that over and over, if I feel a stall I know the first immediate steps to take to begin rectifying the issue. Not saying they don't both share a large share of the culpability here, but if the published service ceiling is 41k, and the VS a/p is engaged, the plane should either give a master caut or auto level off and engage spd hold to prevent a stall. Falls on the manufacturers to implement fail safes where possible to make the plane inherently less prone to human error, and reviewing emergency procedures for ease of use in imparting important flight envelope information. Accidents are never caused by just one failure in the system, blaming that is to ignore the larger framework that caused or allowed the failure to occur in the first place.
I'm about as far the other direction in profession...I am a school bus driver, and instructor. We too, have similar hours of boredom. But its in the moments of boredom when we could change the lives of an entire community. If a school bus driver isn't 100% attentive, we have the potential to lose children. In my particular school district, this hasn't happened in nearly 20 years, but its a sobering reminder to always stay alert, stay professional, and keep distractions put away. We don't have a QRH for situations that can arise on school buses, but I am going to try to press for us to start having checklists and quick references for those times when things don't go as planned. Thank you for the educational videos, they are much appreciated.
Thank you for making aviation available even to ppl like myself, an 83 year old widow, who was petrified of fllying. Can't say I have lost that fear, but I realy enjoy your teachings,... and... I just LOVE your Swedish accent!!
Same here @margaret. I'm a 77 year old widow having been surrounded by husband and son in the parachuting, freefall world. Son now into flying, loves the discipline and thought processes which go into it. I am very very risk adverse, but have found myself enthralled by your videos and their clear, concise and practical interpretations. If he hasn't found you already, I will point my son in the right direction. PS At least I can talk a bit knowledgeably about some of he abbreviations!!)
I did high hazard chemical emergency response for many years. NTSB investigated many of the actions my group handled. In my work it wasn’t unusual for youthful high jinks, horseplay and over familiarity with dangerous chemicals and machinery to be a factor in events my team dealt with. Was maybe the root cause of this crash a mature pilot feeling the normal mixed emotions of “settling into family life”, and getting caught up in a 23 yr old’s undisciplined titillation in pushing limits and flying for thrills rather than to do his job of getting a high dollar item from A to B within parameters. To me, it seems the captain utterly failed this young man by not constraining his youthful impulse and using the opportunity to teach and develop him. Youth commanded here not wisdom, that role reversal seemed physically embodied by them switching chairs. I absolutely love this channel. Enough great investigative detail to keep a me as a former professional responder engaged (and entertained). But he and the production team also offer enough explanation of technical aviation details, for easy understanding. Hats off to them!
Today I learned core lock is a thing. A very, very bad thing. I'm also very impressed with the aircraft. 29 degrees nose up at 41,000 feet? Still flying? That plane was trying very hard to keep everyone alive and almost succeeded.
@@RandomUser2401 "core" on this CF34 engine refers to the N2 spool which contains the high pressure compressor section on one end and" the high pressure turbine wheels on the other end. There is a second spool integrated with the core that has a fan on one end and low pressure turbine on the other end. They are free to rotate independently. The engine is not designed to "core lock" that is just an unfortunate mode of operation when the engine is allowed to stop rotating at other than a normal shutdown. The core shaft becomes stuck and is not able to start rotating again. In this case one engine was thermally damaged beyond limits and simply could not be started no matter what. Too bad they didn't know that as much time was wasted trying to start an unusable engine.
@@buckmurdock2500 Thanks a lot for all that info, great! So the two spools are still concentric and very close? If yes, then I am a bit unclear why that is necessary, also in the video he mentions that they normally do interlock during normal operation as long as the engine is rotating?
I think the fact that their first instincts and last acts were to try to avoid hitting others on the way to their fates is really telling of the types of people these two were. It's unfortunate that they had such a huge lapse in judgement. They really could have hurt or killed other people, and unfortunately they did so to themselves in the end. It really couldn't have been worth it. This is so sad, especially hearing how excited they both were.
I mean, so what? They are 100% responsible for their actions, and that they decided after they put people at risk to try get out of that isn't admirable. Admirable would've been not causing the need to make the decision in the first place. There is nothing to admire here. We have such low standards for men.
I feel the same way... a lot of people talk in these comments about how immature and unprofessional they were, which is true, but I mostly just feel sad about how they tried to be selfless in their last moments but died
one thing that could help would be if airlines held some kind of recurring (every year? Every 2 years? idk) "aerobatics flights" where a plane would be flown with just pilots onboard and under the supervision of veteran high time pilots they would be allowed to perform maneuvers near the edge of the performance envelope on an empty aircraft. As humans we all get the itch to "push it" "try it", it's like owning a motorcycle: even if you're really level headed, you sometimes want to turn all the throttle, you want to reach the redline. Killing that itch with a performance oriented flight where everyone gets to try a couple higher G pulls and climb up would probably help have a safer and more relaxed environment
My flight instructor told me something that I remember every time I watch one of these accident videos. He said "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots".
@@hrdley911 He was an exception and it's highly likely that his displays of "boldness" and their risks, ramifications and potential correctives were thoroughly considered well in advance.
@@frankmiller95 I'm not sure he was an exception. You can be bold in wartime (you have to be) and then as a test pilot you are meticulous and cautious, because you appreciate you are going where no one has gone before..
The "best in people" would be valid if this was something they had not deliberately caused. Instead they chose to clown around putting innocents at risk on the ground. It was a tragic waste of their lives and needless pain for their families all because unprofessional behavior going against every aviation safety protocol. Having said that it is commendable and I respect them when they were close to the end and voiced their concerns about hitting houses.
@@mortimerschnerd3846 No it's not. It's finding good things to learn even from the worst of people. Even though the pilots behaved unprofessionally. Their last moments were spent thinking about how to minimize harm to people on the ground. That is a noble death, lessons to be learned there and an attitude of servitude to be replicated.
Thanks for covering this accident. Putting everything else aside for a moment, this crew was in a perfectly functioning aircraft and at the ceiling altitude - a dream scenario for a restart or an emergency landing on the glide, yet it ended in disaster. Quite often we hear about accidents where a crew was battling a failing aircraft or simply didn't have enough height to recover, yet here we have the opposite. As you say, it's a tragic reminder of the need to stay professional, stick to standard operating procedures, Identify the problem and take the correct action. If they had gone by the book from the first stall warning, they would have been talking about it in the bar later that day. Once again, a great series Petter, thanks!
Well said. That's why I compared these pilots to teenagers in another comment: to my mind, only immaturity can account for the fact that they failed to retrieve the situation. They managed to screw up a situation that experienced pilots would normally be cool with. Not saying it would be easy, but in such a plane, without passengers to worry about, they could do it.
@@moviemad56 Yeah, maybe I'm not qualified to comment since I only fly hang gliders, but I don't understand not instinctively knowing that maintaining altitude in stall recovery only matters when you're trying to conserve altitude. That just sounds so obvious. Stick shaker at 41k? push the nose down. Even if you break your flight level. A mild stall in a hang glider can take about 20 feet to recover from. And these guys were at just under 10x the speed I fly at, so the altitude to recover from a moderate stall for them would be the square of that ratio, so 10^2 x20 feet = 2000 feet. It just seems so intuitive to push the nose down to prevent a stall, especially when you've got more altitude to burn than you've ever had before in your life, even if you bust the flight level. I guess it makes me wonder about how many of the pilots of commercial airliners lack that fundamental bit of airmanship, since this FO and the FO on the Air France flight that stalled all the way down to the water had no idea how to respond. I wonder what percentage of pilots have actually stalled commercial aircraft (not just the simulators), and what percentage of them recovered properly.
If they had gone by the book they would never have stalled to begin with. Total lack of professionalism. Why is bragging at a bar afterwards such a big deal and more important than safety?
This incident always makes me upset to listen to, until it comes to the gear up to try to avoid houses. Then it hits me that it's still a tragic loss of life, even though it could've been prevented by standard procedures. The pilots tried to hide their mistakes, probably out of fear of losing their jobs (rightly so), and dug themselves deeper and deeper into a hole until they couldnt dig out of it. Only then realizing how wrong they were, but too late to save themselves. Losing your job is less serious than losing your life.
In the end they were only concerned with preventing civilian deaths. Amazing they crash landed in neighborhood & no one else died. 31 y.o. & 21 y.o. did some REALLY stupid stuff and lost their lives. RIP
@@GG-kn2se "accident" means no one is at fault and that it couldn't be prevented. That is most certainly not the case here, as the crash very much could have been prevented simply by not monkeying about with the plane, thus the proper term is "incident". All crashes are "incidents", no matter if they're planes, cars, trains, ships, or whatever, unless it can be proven to be an "accident"
I have only recently discovered this TH-cam channel but I would like to thank you for your extremely lucid and authoritative presentation. To pick up on one of your points I was always very surprised when my fellow pilots used V/S to climb without being aware of the potential problems, particularly with two perfectly good modes, VNAV and FLTCH (Flight level change) being available - this on a B747-400. This accident perfectly illustrates what can happen when things start to go wrong and you have already passed through the first (and possibly second) slice of the Swiss cheese. I retired from aviation 20 years ago, but retain an interest and hope that the safety culture of “no fault reporting” will maintain the excellent safety record of civil aviation, despite the inevitable cowboys.
This is probably the video I've gotten most out of. I'm a trainee lorry driver and I'm finding it interesting how much I can learn from these as regards to why people make mistakes and how to prevent them.
My professional career was in high-end IT (retired). You *always* follow procedure and stick with professionalism since, even if an accident occurs, it provides the most cover. And trust me, when the guano hits the turbine you're gonna need every scrap of backside covering. To relay a personal experience, I was performing some upgrades to the house and hit the natural gas line servicing the residence... For three seconds I pondered my options to keep the issue as low-key as possible. And after that, I followed procedure to the letter -- call 911, then call the natural gas company, and suffer the coming circus with stoicism. A pre-plan notification for the digging work was already in existence. I followed procedure to the letter for a line strike... Yes, the half-dozen first responder vehicles on-scene along with gas company representatives was somewhat embarrassing. But, at this point, it's all about minimal embarrassing. And, minimally embarrassing is adhering to procedure and maintaining professionalism.
"For three seconds I pondered my options to keep the issue as low-key as possible." This was definitely the best takeaway I got from both the video and your story. Goofing off by going to 41,000, the rated limit for that airplane, wasn't the problem, and wasn't what caused the fatalities. The problem was the fear of guilt that led them to their fatalities. Embarrassed and alive is better than the alternative, especially when it involves the lives of others as well. The half-dozen first response vehicles is worth it every day of the week, taking up a few hours of 10-20 people's time, is far better than losing 40 years+ of human life per casualty if the natural gas were to ignite into the exposed line. Same for the 60 years+ lost is this airplane incident, simply because they didn't have the guts to say double-engine failure to the ATC.
Yea, it's horrible, embarrassing and scary when you really screw up with serious stuff. But sometimes you gotta just eat the s**t and minimise risk. It often works out that you get another chance because you did the right thing anyway.
@@JohnSmith-eg6bl Glad you got a tickle out of that... I usually have similar in most of my worthwhile posts and/or comments. Although, it's very rare anyone comments on them specifically. Thanks for the giggle!
@@satunnainenkatselija4478 I've never worked on a turbine engine. Although, it is a goal of mine to build one from a junkyard automotive turbo charger some day... To your question about the natural gas leak.. I was putting in new PVC pipe runs from the home gutter downspouts to the street curb. I hit the gas line with a manual shovel severing the line. Just before that last plunge into the soil, I thought, "Maybe I should start using the hand trowel? Yeah, after this next shovel full..."
It’s absolutely insane to think that if they had just done one incredibly simple thing when the initial stickshaker warning occurred the entire sequence of events that followed would have never occurred. Pitching the nose down would have increased speed and lift preventing a stall as well as cooled the engines enough to start spinning and start up and they could have carried on without incident and with a greater and healthier sense of respect for their aircraft and aviation as a whole.
It appears the FO pitched down but not for long enough. Why did they switch places? If the captain had been in control, it could have ended very differently.
Did you not watch the video? They pitched down, but also pitched up to level too soon and did not gain enough lift to prevent another stall due to high altitude. This is because they were trained to prevent stalls in a way that minimizes altitude loss, but significant altitude loss is necessary at high altitudes.
@@sujimayne This is a severe flaw in training if the pilots are taught to maintain altitude above all else. One of the most common themes on this channel is pilots losing control by ignoring air speed (and the most common mistake being pilots ignoring the artificial horizon).
So sad that one of their final decisions was to keep the landing gear up, basically dropping their own survival chances to zero, to try to gain some additional distance to avoid killing people in their houses.
Im 62 and tend to be more of a history buff, but stumbled on these video after a you tube recommendation, which is very strange choice for me. But I have been really enjoying learning about how airplanes work, why people make the decisions they do, and the choices people make when under duress. Also, a great admiration for those who work so hard to figure out what exactly lead up to the accident, and what happened in the plane be it mechanical, or human error.
Very good report , I flew the CRJ 100 ,200,700 and 900 several years as a TRI and TRE and I was allowed to perform TestFlights after C and D checks . The engine in the CRJ 100/200 came from the A10 , it has a so called inertial separater , the air has to make a sharp turn inwards after the fan and stator , all heavier particles cant hit the core engine ( ice,birds etc.) the core engine has 14 compressor stages with 5 VGV. s . on the N1 shaft . Windmill start was only possible when the PF flew the plane with 300KIAS for a long time ,initial descent rate 6000 f/ min. !! The decision to do so , or fly best glide speed has to make in a early stage . APU start below FL300 and bleed assisted start below FL 240 . The pilot monitoring was very busy with QRH to be ready to start when passing FL240 .The starter was so powerful to brake the core lock loose ! But what we learned was never ever more than 5 degrees pitch above FL320 depending on weight otherwise you’re behind the power curve !!!
I'm just curious why you know this but these pilots didn't? I guess this kind of knowledge is neither required nor expected of pilots and is an extracurricular activity?
I've been binging your videos lately, and i think this one really encapsulates what I take away from watching these. That even if the mistakes made were mostly at the hands of people being irresponsible, the core tenant is to learn and keep people safe, not to blame someone for everything. Watching your videos helps me understand how to learn and grow as a person and I really appreciate that.
There's been a few times like now where I considered not watching one of these videos since I saw the incident on another video. Once again like each time I am glad I did. There are so many more things I learned from this video than the other I saw before. It is always nice to get different perspectives. Never feel bad about making a video on an accident/incident you feel like may have been done already. I think everyone brings their own ideas and input so even if you have heard of an accident before you always learn something new. Thank you Mentour!
@@trentcruise3084 Yeah, he lives in the White house, so he is suspicious anyway. And he carries a Walter without even knowing. That man is dangooroos. Do you understand his many words? I don't!
I think it’s because a lot of the other ones are produced by enthusiasts with a decent bit of knowledge and reports. MP is an actual pilot(and other pilot/air institute channels) so we get a unique view of how someone who could be in that situation would be able to interpret plus just in general the more technical knowledge. I can tell you other videos wouldn’t have had the section on the engine core lock with cool animations.
This story saddened me the most. They were so young, and when they refused to admit they lost both engines this further reflected their age. And when the captain decided not extend the landing gear.. man that almost made me tear up. RIP
The interesting thing to me about these videos is that they really show why aviation is so safe: Whenever there is an incident, it is taken seriously and changes are mandated to reduce the likelihood of that mode (or modes) of failure in future. Compare that to automobiles, where drivers are barely trained by comparison, and the same mistakes get made over and over. So even though planes are inherently more risky than cars (since you can't just pull a plane over when something goes wrong) because of the way they are operated the overall risk is reduced to well below that of cars.
Not only that, many countries don’t change traffic situations. A lot of accidents can be avoided by investigating unsafe designs in roads and passages. The Dutch are doing just that and it really makes road use safer.
As a student pilot I understand that my piper warrior is a very very different aircraft to the type you talk about but still, seeing any other response to a high altitude stall being anything other than "nose down, gain speed" blows my mind. I get that the mind defaults to training in crisis, it's a shame the training that was defaulted to was not far back enough.
Watching these videos, I wonder if pilots lack training with situations far outside of the normal. And that some kind of "completely crazy airlines" in a simulator could help. It would fill the need for experimentation, as well as train pilots in really crazy situations.
Really I don't know how quickly my 40 mins went away watching this. As it ended I saw that I was watching it for last 40 minutes but it appeared as if I played it 5 seconds back. Really whole episode went in a flash. Great work! Thank you Sir!!
Same. I have definitely watched 4 minute videos which felt longer than this one. This is the kind of high quality content that the TH-cam algorithm has mostly killed. Thank you for making these awesome videos! 😊
@@MentourPilot your videos get better every week with the phenomenal editing, research and delivery, the only problem now is waiting for your next episode is that much tougher! To be entertained and educated at the same time is priceless. Keep up the GREAT work, we all appreciate your dedication and effort! 😀
I am not a pilot but I really enjoy your videos. You have gone over a number of accidents that i have seen other videos on but hearting from a pilot really changes things. You are also great at dumbing it down for us wingless types! Great work sir!
I’m a former USN/USMC flight test engineer. We’re taught to use “matter of fact” speech. We try to ensure that no personal opinions or bias is introduced into our reports. Lay out the facts and determine the test results. Personal opinions are a no no.
I’m not in the aviation field but just love listening to these. I appreciate the breakdown of every accident. I’ve also learned some really cool stuff & learning is literally the best part of life.
Me too. I know nothing about flying, but he explains things so well I actually understand the main points, and he does give outstanding advice as well. I watch his videos often and think of my father and brother who wanted to be pilots 💙✈
I was working for ExpressJet at this time and we all thought pilots were probably having a good bit of fun on repo flights, but this was pretty shocking.
I think the only redeeming thing the captain did on this flight was keeping the gear up in an attempt to avoid ground casualties. He knew he screwed up and he didn't want people on the ground to pay for his errors even at greater risk to his own safety.
@@tafdiz That's the problem, right? These machines are incredibly complicated and you don't know how exactly they work. I wonder how many people even knew about this "core lock" situation can happen before this accident. More the reason to stick to procedures so you don't get into these "edge case scenarios", where unusual stuff can happen.
@@tafdiz In the dumb quest for that "less than one percent efficiency increase", engine designs are reaching critical points. Just look at how bad went the literal destruction of the engine nacelle and front ring on the B777 powered by the PRATT and WHITNEY PW-4000 engines that threw a too large fan blade due to fatigue! They tested the engines on a mock-up fixture at the shop, but forgot to test the entire nacelle when testing to blade failure! Talk about insufficient testing, like TACA Flight 110 (badly designed ice and water injestion test) or Boeing testing the effect of Thrust Reverser uncommanded opening testing only at low altitude, that took an extraordinary person like Niki Lauda in order to take Boeing out of their stupidity!
I'm a train driver and the situation of a positioning flight rings very true to us as well, we have what's called Light engine movements (LE) which are trains ran with no carriages passengers or cargo just the locomotive itself. they are quite rare as well. Everything in terms of locomotive/vehicle behaviour is completely different to a fully loaded train, whenever I've ran a LE movement the atmosphere is always enjoyable exciting and all round fun because of the unusual circumstances, and we tend to have a bit of fun within the means of the rules and regulations that we're required to also learn off by heart like pilots. I completely understand how the pilots felt like they didn't have the same responsibilities as on a regular flight feeling they could take some liberties. I'm not excusing that behaviour at all but it just rings very true to the similarities of a locomotive Cab and a Cockpit
Lessons learned: - The most dangerous skill level to have is when you know enough to get yourself into a dangerous situation, but not enough to get out of it. Beginners and masters tend to know there are limits to what they can handle, it's the intermediate level that is most likely to get in over their heads. - Breaking the rules is a bad idea for many reasons, but one of them is that when you break the rules and get into trouble, you may be more likely to focus on covering your mistakes instead of asking for help. But whatever you do, don't lie about your situation when help is offered! - The +1 rule. There is always one more factor in the situation you aren't aware of (the unexpectedly dangerous engine design), always one more thing that goes wrong than you expected (not being able to start either engine for no apparent reason), always one more mistake that you are making that you aren't aware of (trying to get to an airport that is no longer in glide range). If you push the limits to the point of there being no margin for error, the +1 is going to get you. - Don't minimize your gut feeling or sense of threat. When you start getting that sneaking suspicion that "something's wrong, this might be a bad situation", you are often already deep into a bad situation and need to recognize that immediately. Don't keep acting like everything's fine. - There is no safe way to do unsafe things. Even if there are no passengers on board, you can still get people on the ground killed.
@@Arkalius80 At least little bit I get form watching these video will never be put to practice. So I and everyone around me should be safe from me flying an airplane.
Good thoughts. Back in 1979 in Idaho my kayaking instructor told me about your first item. It's the novice that gets killed on the river. Beginners are too scared to try something stupid, experts know better, but the novice ... It's a rule that applies to all activities with consequence.
I've been following your videos for a while...I'm a 71-year-old Dutch man who didn't have English lessons before, but German and French, but I want to express my great respect to you for the way you can still watch the movies in a calm way explain so that I understand it too....and of course the professional way in which you do this. I once flew a C172 myself, 26 lessons but it never got a license, 42 years ago. I hope you continue with your movies, I enjoy them. (my name is Bram from the town Haarlem, 15 kms from Schiphol)
You should try Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020! Obviously not even close to the real deal, but with modern graphics you would definitely enjoy it. Runs on PCs and modern videogame consoles like an Xbox.
They had 6 airports at 41 grand ,the very first thing they should have done was set up for the best one ,and do everything else to try and restart after they established a plan and they would have made it
@@sydbarrett4518 They were too worried about getting fired once they flamed out. They would have to answer to the man when asked why were you at 41k feet going slow enough to stall. They assumed they had enough height to restart so that way they could figure out how to keep their jobs but by the time it was too late...cloud layer...they knew it was no more birthdays. No. More. Birthdays.
Sir! You are an awesome mentor. Actually you explained all the happenings in an understandable way, no matter how complicated and technical the things were.
I am not a pilot and am, in fact, fairly terrified of flying, but, for some reason, your explanations and information are clear, concise, and comforting. Keep it up!!!!
Many years ago a rather zany friend of mine who had his ppl suggested he took me up for a lunchtime flight rather than sit in the van eating lunch. Great i said yes lets do it! We used a little single engine aeroplane from an aero club. i had by the time we got to the aircraft noticed a total change in this guy, he was extremely careful on his ground checks and while flying he kept monitoring everything and explained the instruments and controls. His words to me that stuck to this day were "Never muck around in these things Al, they'll kill you". Great video again, very interesting findings by NTSB, will you do a video on todays C130 crash in the Philippines when the report comes out?
Funny you should say that. I once knew a pilot socially and he was exactly like this. Most laid-back, amiable dude socially down the pub. I ran into him once in uniform and it was like a different person. Calm, Professional, focussed. I think he saved all his Crazy for when a few hundred people were not relying on him to keep them alive in an inherently hostile environment.
Yeah I was taken up by a pilot I made wedding rings for. He completely changed like that too. I knew why and knew to keep my statements concise also as I was being allowed to fly the aircraft at 5 thousand feet. I knew to keep my statements short and concise. It was fun but limited fun given the G forces and the whole potential disaster thing....
Sailors are a lot of the same way. You absolutely must have total respect for the sea, or air, because even when you do, it can and will do its dead level best to kill you.
i'm nowhere even near this industry but just been binging all his videos...I find the whole thing fascinating. The intricate systems and the way pilots react to different scenarios is incredible to me
Can confirm two things from my time at Pinnacle. 1: They were still training to minimize altitude loss as EQUALLY important to “breaking” the stall AFTER this accident, despite adding the hi altitude stall training. 2: The training department described the Core Lock as being the result of the restart attempts below minimum required speeds and NOT as described here. I find that interesting.
Yes it sounds like the engines actually have a fatal flaw in that they lock up when flamed out, but obviously pinnacle want to continue flying with them so they are going to tell the pilots that it only happens when you don't fly according to procedure....
@@giftofthewild6665probably any engine may be locked up under certain conditions as the mechanics of the lock up is determined by the very principle of it's design. You need metal which is softer than the engine blades to create just enough friction, just like a bullet needs to be softer than the gun barrel. So there we have it.
Just keep your best climb speed. Nothing is going to take you higher than that. If at best climb speed the airplane settles 2000 ft below the "official" ceiling, that that's the ceiling for that airplane that day. Now, noteworthy, that plane that day WAS capable of achieving FL410, had they not slowed down below best climb.
@@marekjakimowicz There IS a procedure to get to and maintain 41,000 from the manufacturer. But you need to enter 41k above a published high speed. If you enter 41k below the published speed (as happened here), the engines produce insufficient thrust to accelerate even in straight and level flight. Its not the AoA specifically, however it makes sense that to intercept 41k you would be more shallow in the AoA, to carry the high speed required by the manufacturer. Personally speaking it should never be certified for 41k service ceiling. I'm unsure if this airline even produced a section in their manual for high altitude intercept because they never intended their airplane to be up there in their operations.
@@marekjakimowicz ... There is a concept called "excess thrust" which is how much thrust you have on top of what is needed to fly straight and level (no climb or descend) at your current speed. If your excess thrust is positive, you will gain either altitude or speed. If your excess thrust is negative, you will lose either altitude or speed. As Peter (Mentour) explained, there is one airspeed that will give you the minimum drag. That speed will aslo give you maximum excess thrust (because it is the speed where you need the least thrust to overcome the drag). So it will give you the best climb rate if your excess thrust is positive (i.e. if you have more thrust than what is needed to fly straight and level at that speed). That airspeed is called "best climb speed". The normal procedure to climb at high altitude is to set the throttle for climb power and use the pitch to control the airspeed keeping it at best climb speed. The service ceiling is, by definition, the altitude at which the plane can sustain a climb of 100 feet per minutes at best climb airspeed. That means that if you apply climb thrust and keep best climb speed, you will eventually reach your service ceiling altitude but barely, just with a climb rate of 100 feet per minute, which is a very very shallow climb. But this is not what the pilots did here. They set the autopilot to maintain a climb rate of 500 feet per minutes (5 times more aggressive than what you can sustain at the service ceiling). Because of that, there was a point where they started to lose airspeed (at a certain altitude, the engines just didn't have enough power to keep the airspeed and a 500 fmp climb at the same time) and, eventually, the speed went below the best climb speed which, remember, is the minimum drag speed. After that it is a vicious circle. Speed goes down, drag goes up so speed goes down even more so drag goes up even more and so on. They finally managed to get to 41000 ft but by then they were going so slow and the drag so high that their excess thrust was negative, meaning that the available thrust was not enough to keep both the altitude and the speed. One had to give and, because the pilots didn't let the altitude drop, the speed kept deteriorating which made the drag to keep increasing and the speed to keep deteriorating and so on, until they stalled. In other words, the plane was capable of maintaining 41000 ft, but not at such a low speed and high drag. They should have climbed more slowly and maintained best climb airspeed until getting to 41000 ft.
That moment when you realize a little bit of fun has turned into a "I've really fed up". Many of us have been there and fortunately many of those moments don't end this tragically.
I don't know how you do it but every episode of this series is better than another. At this Speed in 2 months you'll be making a documentaries for Netflix ! Keep it up!
@Jesus what do you mean w-t-f grow up ! This is very useful content that should be shown to. Future piloting students. We are not saying it should be mandatory for them to qualify 🙊
In many degree programs like my own we actuaally watched video documentaries . This was back before TH-cam!! I can tell you that the content on this channel is far more superior than the stuff we were shown which was fiction.
Mentour reading out things like "ain't" and "bro" was rather entertaining! Saw this story before and thought about what I've learned from his channel just a week or so ago!
I've been in the aviation industry for over 30 years and all the lessons you speak of apply to all levels of aircraft operation and maintenance. Keep up the good work.
I am deeply sorry for the loss of their familymembers. But this is the first accident i am watching where I (without ANY aviation knowledge) was screeming in my inner voice "NOSE DOWN, NOSE DOWN" Very sad and tragic... Since I have lost my parents in an accident, I know that the fact that no citzens where harmed will be the silk blanket on their families souls
I was like you, but what I found interesting is that the pilots are trained not to follow their natural intuition (nose down) but to replicate only what they trained. In normal situation what they trained was more adapted to safety of all passenger, but here it killed them. Finally they did what they should have done, and what their learned was pretty good. This is simply a tragedy : nobody's fault. Just fate.
Maybe if they had informed the ATC sooner of their dual engine failure, and by this admitting to themselves their having fun going extremely wrong, it would be less stressful and they would probably have gotten useful feedback and information from the ATC to descent and glide in time for a nearer airport...It was so sad at the end, the pilot seemed to realize his own death right there but denied himself (a decision that indicates too much awful feelings I imagine) to lower the gear to absorb some impact forces in shake of not hurting people on the ground, even though that wasn't guaranteed one way or the other. Miraculous that they dodged this event. The whole thing reminded me of the Icarus mythological theme. And since I wrote this much, have a compliment too: I started watching air crash investigations on your channel, and the videos are so good that I can't watch anything else with the same understanding and amazement XD
The moment the captain lied about the dual engine failure, my sympathy for him was gone. He was more focused on covering his ass than avoiding a possible crash into a populated area. Sorry that they had to die, but glad that these guys aren't piloting planes anymore.
Visit www.virtual737course.com to learn how to fly a 737 like Petter in our virtual 737 SIM course Make sure to use code "mentournow" for 20% off!
As a non-pilot, my take-away from this video is this: My car's 140 mph speedometer doesn't mean that it's a good idea to try to drive my car at 140 mph.
You do have to admire the speedometer’s enthusiasm though.
yeah, whether you're flying or driving it's really crucial that you know your machine if you want to travel safely.
if you hit fog on a motorway and up flashed warning 60 you wouldn't think it meant stay above 60, thats why we have LIMIT , BUT either min max should be stated ex. MIN 275kmh next to the pilot speed, thats why the aviation authority changed it because it was open to error
welcome to the German Autobahn. Ignoring that your car probably cant actually do 140mph
And remember, too, the higher up you are, the farther you have to go to reach land should something happen. I don't know that "41ing" it would necessarily make me giddy. I write that as a non-pilot.
My first flight instructor regularly reminded my that FAA regulations are written in blood. The two most dangerous words in aviation are "Watch this".
hold my beer
Hang on, I'm going to try something!! Lol
I have first hand experience.
The world would be infintley better off without regulations of any sort tbh.
@@natowaveenjoyer9862 better? idk. more fun? Definitely
"Professionalism means doing it the right way even when nobody is looking."
Same, even on a quiet road late a night I'll still indicate and stop at red lights. No-one may know but you should do things right
Integrity.
And not release aircraft engines that sieze up
@@ivangutowski That’s just a waste of bulb life.
@@The_ZeroLine Not quite. You MAY think that there's no one out there, but you could be wrong. Saved my car a couple of times this reflex of signalling without looking/thinking. There WAS a car in the blind spot and the driver hit the horn when he saw the right signal. Also I'm trying to avoid cutting through a big parking lot just because is shorter the route, you never know who else is cutting on another intersecting route. It's safer to use the marked routes. Usually we think that we looked everywhere, that is safe, that we perfectly control the car, but even the greatest like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton proved us that we are only human and mistakes happen.
I think one reason why they may not have treated the situation more seriously initially is because they felt guilty for having caused this and were hoping to solve the issue quietly so they wouldn't have to pay such high consequences.
Of course, eventually they paid the highest of all consequences.
I think they were sadly mistaken on that. Even if they had been able to recover, I think the incident still would have been investigated and the CVR/FDR would have shown what they did.
You get the sense they were trying to downplay, even cover up their situation over fears of reprisals over their actions. I really feel like they were so worried about potentially losing their jobs it ended up costing them their lives.
Bingo
So sad. Lying to save your job cost you your life.
Some people convicted of crimes do the same thing at sentencing.
I am a nurse, and I think your point at the end is so important. In my profession, there are so many times where nobody is watching, and I see nurses cut corners or do things against procedure. And just like here, tragic fatalities can result when people are being cavalier and not thinking about safety.
I am not a pilot and never will be, but I love watching your videos because it always motivates me to act "like a pilot" in my job and be as safe as possible.
Pete, great comment...thanks
Character is who you are when no one is watching.
@@smittysmeee Awesome.... Sooo true
If nobody was watching and you had some fancy machine not hooked up to a patient, would you not maybe look through the menu of the machine to see what it could do that you didn't know about?
@@thewhitefalcon8539 I don't mean a lack of knowledge of a machine. I mean things like not staying in the room for the required amount of time after giving a patient a sedating drug. Many times I've seen nurses administer meds and immediately leave the room to go to their next patient. Most of the time no consequences happen, but sometimes there is a patient who might stop breathing, and then the nurse is gone. That's why the rules are important, even if 99% of the time you don't see a consequence.
I became a dispatcher for Pinnacle right after this crash. It was still very raw and fresh. We had to watch the recreation of the flight as filmed in a simulator. They really wanted to drive it home that this wasnt a joke.
You have a GREAT job and career....
@@ClearedAsFiled you are everywhere
I was an airline pilot for 23 years, a Captain for 10 years on the Airbus 330/340/350 and this is such a sobering and sad story since the loss of life was totally avoidable. I commend you on your clear presentation, enthralling for me as a pilot and yet easily understandable for laymen. I learned about core lock for the first time (as it was not applicable to my engine types). It's so true about maintaining SOPs at all times and I spent the whole video thinking, "They are really asking for trouble here." It's a terrible shame they didn't live to learn their lesson. My son wants to be a pilot and encourage him to watch more of your excellent videos which I have no doubt will help him to become a better, safer pilot. Thank you.
Even as a non flying noob who has played a few basic flying computer games and read the odd pilota story books it was obvious they were heading into trouble. 150kts at 41k ft angle of 20°+ nose up?! Screams of a stall to me. My dad had mentioned something called coffin corner to me many years ago when talking about stalling at high altitude. I also read 'fate is the hunter'. Great tales of flying. I thoroughly enjoyed this video but like u say it screamed disaster from the start and got worse as it progressed.
@@psirvent8 Was their crime so great as to deserve the death penalty? I don't think so. They were a couple of young guys having irresponsible fun. Haven't we all done so at some point? If anything they deserved to get fired, not death.
@@2811JPR, yes, exactly. We were all in a condition to do something stupid for fun. Reprimand and retraining is supposed to be penalty for this. Stupid situation they were not supposed to do? Yes. Sadly it had such a consequences. Luckily other civilians were not injured.
@@stevenross-watt8640 man they were so young and paid ultimate price. Guy well said It’s great tragedy they didn’t live and learn from it to tell tale. :(
@@peregrimus I agree. I'm not mocking them. They just pushed to hard with a terrible price.
I got tears in my eyes when you said the pilot said “don’t put down the landing gear.”
They made horrible mistakes they sadly did not recover from. I feel sorry for their families.
I feel sorry for the company that trusted two dumbs to fly an airplane like a toy.
The biggest thing to learn here, and I think this applies to any profession, is to be honest and transparent. The pilots were so worried about getting in trouble that they ended up getting themselves killed and endangering the lives of others. It always ends badly when you don’t own up to mistakes and start rectifying them
they didnt do it with passengers and when it was all over the only thing they said was we cant hit any houses. gotta love em. should you push a machine? no. theres rules for a reason. but can i blame someone who does? no. and in the end they showed their quality.
@@markheinle6319 - Once they'd already more or less sealed their fate by their earlier mistakes and deception, yes, they went out nobly, trying not to injure anyone on the ground. That's a positive. But they did still crash in a residential area, so they succeeded partly by luck at that part. Perhaps they saw the yard / shed and managed to aim for it, perhaps it was just luck that they didn't plow right into a house with people in it.
But the key fact remains that they could have avoided getting to that point if they'd declared a dual-engine-out emergency sooner, and had folks on the ground helping to work the problem. Someone might have noticed sooner that they'd better glide towards an airfield in case the engines couldn't be restarted. Or they might have noticed if they weren't busy thinking about deception, and thus could ask ATC for a vector.
(In an alternate history, we'd still have to assume they didn't immediately realize the importance of keeping IAS > 240kts, and still would have gotten their engines core locked. After still stalling trying to maintain FL410 instead of letting the stick pusher do its job and trading some altitude for speed and then telling ATC about it; aviate, navigate, communicate. IDK, maybe they intentionally wanted to see exactly what would happen when the plane couldn't hold the altitude, so they basically stalled it intentionally and assumed recovery would be no problem. I hope they weren't that intentionally reckless, but even if they were, that didn't have to be fatal when it turned out to be a lot more dangerous than they anticipated, with 41k feet of altitude to work with for stall recovery. Still, a 29 degree pitch up? I hope a CRJ-2200 is immune to a "deep stall" where the control surfaces also stall, making recovery potentially impossible even with plenty of height.)
@@markheinle6319 I disagree, a plane was lost and two men died. But for shear luck innocent people on the ground could easily have been killed. What happened was both unprofessional and dangerous. Had they survived I doubt they would be flying today. RIP.
Exactly right. That’s why they focused on trying to start the engines for such a long time, instead of trying to prepare for an unpowered landing at one of the many airports within their glide range. These guys were so focused on not losing their jobs, they ended up losing their lives.
@@markheinle6319 “can i blame someone who does?” uh yes you definitely can lol they were reckless and they trashed a plane and died as a consequence. just bc they didn’t kill anyone doesn’t mean they didn’t mess up
The painful thing about this for me isn't really the actions that led to the engine failures - that was recoverable from - it's what came next. I suspect they felt embarrassed about what had happened, which led to them not being completely honest with ATC. Had they been more honest more quickly, they could have got out of this situation, but they weren't and it cost them their lives. It's tragic.
Precisely what I was thinking.
i truly cant believe it. all they had to do was start the fucking engines! They should know by heart! the first thing i ever did in the sim was "what happens if i cut my engines at altitude" *cuts engine* "surely i can restart" "now lets stall and dive a 747" you can do allot at 41k
(edit) AHH I just realized they didnt pay any attention to temp. what is with these pilots and inability to notice things they should be noticing. Shit, I even monitor the temp in my vehicle when the gauge works . so far out of 20 accidents ive seen, only 2 were actual un-avoidable accidents. the rest make me very upset and actually. I want to be pilot just so I can fill a chair that a moron might fill otherwise.
@@Wtfinc Saying that "X happened because the pilots were morons" is comforting because it lets you say "that would never happen to me," but it's generally not true. And commercial aviation is so safe because most of the parties involved, particularly those designing the systems within which pilots fly, take the exact opposite approach: they assume that everybody makes errors and design the system to handle that as best as possible.
You never, ever get resilience by telling humans, "don't make stupid mistakes."
@@Curt_Sampson im scared of flying now more than ever. you just never know who's going to be in the pilots seat. I would rather pilot myself. Whateverthe smallest twin engine seaplane maybe that can get me across the atlantic.
@@Wtfinc Yeah, I'm just terrified in general, even though I know it's irrational considering I drive plenty. As far as piloting myself goes, well then I'd just be scared because the smaller types of planes I would be able to (potentially, if I got a really well-paying job) get my hands on don't have nearly the level of safety features that commercial airliners have, so it's kind of a catch-22... I don't know if I'll ever visit Europe again, but at least I flew across the Atlantic a lot of times as a kid... which kinda makes me feel like my luck would run out if I did it again (even though I know that's yet another completely irrational fallacy)
The way you impart these stories of aviation tragedies is done with great empathy and little judgement. You do not use sensationalism, you stick to data and paint a very clear picture accessible to the layperson. I’m a very nervous flyer and watching your videos has actually lessened my fears. You do a great service to pilots and passengers. Thank you.
@@omarhamani2126
In this case it seems warranted. These guys did like 15 things wrong… had they only done 14 they would have lived…. They might have been fired, but they would have lived
Me too. Seems counterintuitive but I feel less anxious about issues when flying and more confidence in flight teams to handle them and my safety when flying. Knowledge is the antidote to fear and I’m happy I stumbled across this channel for several reasons. Cheers.
I think what Gavin meant is that there is little judgement of the pilot's skill, character, etc., only an objective evaluation of their actions. Conversely in videos where he covers events that ended more favorably thanks to pilots' abilities he has been very complimentary.
@@minnesotajack1 And remember, too, the higher up you are, the farther you have to go to reach land should something happen. I don't know that "41ing" it would necessarily make me giddy.
@@markanderson77
If the flight ceiling was 69,000 feet that’s be a different story
I have 2000 hours on the CRJ-200. Its a beautiful aircraft which can do things any other aircraft cant do. I've also done a test flight with just a captain and an engineer on board where we cut an engine inflight during climb and relit it using the APU bleeds and continued climb to 31,000ft. After that we performed other emergency procedures and also cut the other engine. We relit the engine using windmill restart at 300knots. Also, we've climbed to 40,000ft on a ferry flight and it flew it like a champ. It's sad to see this video because the crew weren't prepared to face such a difficult situation which i feel is due to the lack of training. Thanks for the video, it was very insightful for not just pilots but others as well. Just wanted to people to know that this aircraft is safe and its a joy for pilots to fly.
Oddly enough this incident demonstrates what makes aviation such a safe way to travel. It would have been so easy to write of this incident as a couple of knuckle heads goofing off and move on, but instead the investigators really dug deep into the causes and came away with some important lessons that could benefit the safety of all flights. I'm sure today just about every CRJ-200 pilot knows about core lock and how to prevent it because of this crash.
Bradley Dobie: Agreed. First, it's comforting that in the vast majority of significant air accidents, multiple things had to go wrong. Second, it's VERY good that the incidents are investigated carefully and seriously and so many good recommendations are made.
What is NOT good is how often many recommendations are ignored by airlines and plane manufacturers wanting to save money, or just ignoring the recommendations due to other priorities.
Humans -- it's amazing things work as well as they do, given how fallible we all are, and as careless as far too many of us are, at times.
As a former CRJ pilot, that's the first example of what not to do in a CRJ when you join the initial Type rating. Very good video and accurate explanation about what happen.
Thank God it was empty.
@@dagmastr12 actually if it wasn't empty, the pilots wouldn't have felt like hot dogging and getting the plane in that position, ironic.
Well said. Honestly I don't think there is a single industry as dedicated to learning from mistakes as the aviation industry.
Pretty sure the world could be a much better place if we all tried to do the same, no matter which field.
This crash reminds me of the terrified feeling you get the seconds before an accident. I’ve only had this happen once when I was younger. I used to be a huge speed junky on country roads. One time when the roads were wet, I tried taking an on-ramp as fast as I normally do in the dry and the car lost all traction and understeered nearly off the road into a drainage ditch. I had assumed that ABS and stability control would save me, but those safety systems can’t undo a bad decision. I was lucky it regained traction just before hitting the gravel. But it felt like an eternity. People sometimes feel like they’re invincible until they meet their own mortality.
True that
I've had moments like this on skis. I have the fear in me now.
A wise man once told me everyone should learn to drive in a Beetle in Wales.
You're barely scraping the surface but good start...
Good start...
@@podulox Well, it was a 2012 Focus, so close enough lol.
Felt the same feeling while cycling... I was taking a descent at maximum speed, since the weather conditions were perfect and I know that road really really well, when suddenly before a sharp 90 degrees turn I felt fine gravel under my wheels, just where the usual braking spot was. I thought I was not gonna slow down in time and I was gonna fall (at the side of the turn there is about 2 meters of flat grass peeceeding an extremely steep 5/10 m drop to the forest in that point. Luckily I managed to slow down just in time on the grass at the side. Apparently, it had rained some days before and the water had deposited the gravel just in that point
We use to have a saying in the US Navy. Integrity is doing the right thing all the time even when no one is looking.
That message is scriptural. It goes waaaaaayyyyyy back.
That’s amazing! The Army does too! So does my church. So did my middle school.
Sorry, can’t help but rag on a squid.
@@rwfwcfii439 lol it’s all good ground pounder.
Ironic
Air Force Core Value # 1: Integrity First!
I can’t wrap my head around this first officer’s reluctance to push the stick forward
ikr? You have 40,000 feet of clear skies below you, just push the damn nose down!
They went the middle road. Never gained enough speed but somehow lost a lot of altitude.
It was "dumb and dumber" in the cockpit. What did you expect? Them suddenly starting to do the right thing?
I know. It seems like common sense to dive and gain air speed.
this comment reminded me of the Air France disaster
Even though these incidents are gruesome and they might seem like a macabre interest, the technical details never fail to fascinate me. The knowledge that mr mentour has is astonishing and proves his dedication and love of aviation.
They are fascinating but, I admit, I _am_ macabre. Death is kaleidoscopic in its forms and factors. The great adventure. The undiscovered country. I want to learn from the dead about death because I won’t learn anything about my own.
@@darkprose This! This right here.
Don't get why it would seem macabre. He explains more about the mistakes that led to the crash. It's about the aircraft and the (clearly not followed) proper handling and flying of craft.
Not necessarily about death.
There’s always been some shady stuff coming out of the Little Rock airport, and especially the smaller ones that dot the surrounding area.
I’m not saying that there’s a lot of drug trafficking going on there, but who knows 🤷🏽♀️
I also admire how restrained Mentour Pilot is when talking about the deceased pilots. It would be easy to focus on the unprofessional things that they did, but he remains so respectful, even when their errors are apparent.
I was on a CRJ-900 once with only 5 passengers, including myself.
It was rather creepy actually. None of the normal sounds of air travel, other than the engines. They were the only noise. No rustling of cloths, no talking, no kids, no coughing or sneezing, no creaking of seats, nothing from the galleys. Just the engines. It was very early in the morning too, so dark outside and the cabin crew had the lights off.
Never experienced anything like it in over 100 flights.
Huh... you can actually hear any of those noises over the engine noise? The engines are so loud I can barely hear anything else whenever I fly.
@@giftofthewild6665usually you can hear the flaps, and sometimes the landing gear
100 flights. Lol. Thats nothing
@JustRememberWhoYoureWorkingFor yeah you can just about hear the little Motors that move the flaps out, if you sit on the wing rows.
i was going to be the only passenger once but at the last boarding call, a couple showed up. When boarding, they made me wait until my group (C) was called. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm not sure how I ended up watching this vid but the timing was spot on. As a Healthcare Educator, trying to get across to students the importance of always behaving in a professional manner as there can always be unforeseen consequences for not doing so, well its hard to put old heads on young shoulders and not just seeming like an old buzzkill. I used this video to emphasise the point and it worked brilliantly. You could see it clicking with the students from early enough on, albeit they also initially thought Id lost the plot using an air crash investigation for healthcare ethics learning. It could help one of these kids and their patients one day so much appreciated!!
Great example of innovative teaching methods - well done!
It's not really the same, it as the pilots here were testing illegal drugs on their selves.. Their goal from the beginning is to behave unprofessionally. Had there been any other passenger on board nothing would have happened.
Well done. I think keeping professional and following procedures even when it feels redundant is the main takeaway here. There are more though:
-This crew (unfortunately there are more examples) most likely was ashamed of their mistakes and tried to hide it from ATC. It feels understandable because they very well might've lost their jobs after this anyway. Yet they probably could've saved their lives if they had communicated their situation openly without hesitating.
-Learn from mistakes and look for multiple things that went wrong. We tend to find "the reason" quickly and stop looking afterwards. When something goes wrong badly, it's almost never one isolated mistake that caused it. The way to improve is to keep searching and analyzing. It's really amazing that they dug so deep to find problems with checklists and the engine even though the blame is on the pilots.
Sorry for the text wall, maybe that was more for myself. All the best!
@@flo0778 My husband and I were the only passengers on a flight when the two pilots decide to go off course and see a gold domed house in north Texas. They turned the plane sideways and flew a circle around that house. We were out of our seats at the door of the cockpit when they did that. We both fell and I just remember looking out the window at the gold domed house going around in circles! So, so bad.
@@judymcrae7692 Very ungracious from your pilots but I don't get the link with this video, this plane was absolutely empty.
When you explained what the "keeping the gear up" line meant I became very sad. And then the pilots' last words were concern and regret about likely hitting houses...I started tearing up. Then you said that there were no other injuries and I just started sobbing. I don't know why, but some mix of the pilots' final thoughts being concern for the lives of those they would likely hit and the revelation that somehow no one other than the pilots were harmed just completely broke me. This story, for whatever reason, has had the most emotional affect on me out of any of the videos I have watched from you.
For me it's also the fact how happy they were just before
@@lollol-en9xx Maybe that's what it was, yeah
@@lollol-en9xx Exactly. This has escalated so quickly.
It was like in a horror movie. First everyone has fun, then problems slowly appear, but they discard them and in the end they fight for their life and lose.
Even though these pilots arguably acted more foolishly than most other accident pilots, I just love them. It reminds me of the sad old cowboy ballad the streets of Laredo.
simp
I used to watch air crash investigation all the time but I much prefer Mentour these days, the video quality is always top notch and everything is well explained.
Thank you! Glad too find them interesting.
Feel free to help the channel by sharing it with your friends on social media
Mentour's videos are so much better than those over dramatic air crash shows with dramatic music and narration. So glad I found this channel too!
Yes, the TV shows are sensationalistic whereas Mentour is rational, factual and detailed.
Yes indeed, plus Mentour doesn't use that hideous background music that makes it impossible to hear.
I love both series of shows. Excellent information.
it's so sad to me because, while their actions were really unprofessional and should have NEVER happened, you can also see how much the pilots love aircraft and flying, and how passionate they were. RIP.
it is very sad, i totally see why they did what they did, they were young and inexperienced and really loved flying so much and were excited to get to "play" with this aircraft while it was just them. they totally bonded over this and probably would have been best friends if this didnt happen. its hear breaking but i respect them both that in the end they were more worried about people on the ground than themselves.... i hope that they are now at peace, and that they didnt die feeling like they were about to kill people on the ground because they didnt end up killing anyone but themselves unintentionally.
And how they were working right to the end. No cries of fear, no accusations, professional all the way. A team. As an aside the plan to take the plane up so much higher made me think of the great book and film, The Right Stuff, where although he's flying a completely different aircraft, Chuck Yeager/Sam Shepard takes that plane to and past the limit, in his case the edge of space. The plane cut out, went haywire. Engines stopped, it's cartwheeling through air while he tries to get it normalized. He was lucky of course but he pushed the envelope as the two pilots did too. The love of flying and wheeling through footless halls of air.
@@margaretcastell9429 "Professional??" You can't be serious. Their "professionalism" is what got them into this instance in the first place. Their lack of professionalism explains how badly they botched the emergency they created. Idiots.
@Margaret Castell such a great book!
@@margaretcastell9429 Being afraid or as you put it, “cries of fear” is a normal human reaction, especially given the 4 failed restarts and the impending impact with terrain. It wouldn’t have been unprofessional for them to be fearful or cry out given the circumstances. We really need to stop normalizing that having a lack of emotions or not showing emotions is a good thing.
Lesson learned: When you push the limits, some times the limits push back.
True!
Sometimes you don't even have to push the limits.
THIS HAPPENS MORE THAN YOU THINK. LOOK AT THE TIMES PILOTS HAVE IGNORED DANGERS.
@@MentourPilot I KNOW OF A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT CAN MAKE THINGS A LOT SAFER.
@@MentourPilot this is why rules exist in the first place
I have nothing to do with aviation or flying, excepting my absolute love of these stories, the technical details and the physics and amazing pilots we hear about. I live for these videos!
Done with such respect and dignity! not an easy thing to do.
I agree. Great video and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to use such respectful language about these pilots.
Remember: Getting fired is better than getting killed by your own mistakes.
look, with respect, they did not have that much time at all to contemplate this. it's not like they were in a space ship and having 2 years to make a decision. their attention was in getting the engines started and the landing.
@@ursodermatt8809 I suspect they had enough time to consider whether they would be fired, because the Captain lied about the situation of the engines...
@@fzigunov
ok, because he lied he had enough time. your logic makes sense.
lying is only possible if you have a lot of time.
@@ursodermatt8809 you're not making any sense. First you say 'they didn't contemplate consequences because they didn't have enough time' then when it's pointed out their behaviour suggests that they probably were aware of it you come up with this bullshit 'lying is only possible if you have a lot of time'
Back to school with you!
What struck me was the relative youth of both pilots, especially the 23 y/o. Both reverted to immature behaviors as if they were at a party or in a movie. It's a amazing they opted to go so far out of acceptability as pilots and with company property, seemingly unaware of the potential consequences, particularly when safety was, and is the hallmark of aviation, and which has impacted health care and other industries. Great explanation and teaching as usual.
This is why there should be an antisocial personality test screening for pilots and all other high-risk professions!
I agree. If they were test pilots who were requested to test the capability of the craft during certain maneuvers then their excitement and sense of adventure would be appropriate. Playing with other people's expensive machinary to the extent that it killed two people and might have killed hundreds more is completely unacceptable.
@@vanyastaleva415 True enough, but I didn't see anti-social personalities here so much as two very young men thinking, as young men do, that they were invincible and that they could solve any problem.
As a comparison the average age of WW2 bomber pilots was only 21 (based on quick googling).
@@bkreed27 so what? They were meant to kill never mind the price, next to that their low age were caused by the immensely high losses.
Great video - as usual. Peter, you mentioned how this accident impacted aircrew training. On the engine design side it also resulted in some additional flight testing of turbofan engines, not just the GE models. At Honeywell (TPE331, TFE731, CFE738, HTF7000) we had to perform what we called “drift down” tests that reproduced the conditions experienced by the ill-fated CRJ. The engine under test would be installed on our flying test bed (a 757-200) as a third engine. We then flew the engine to 45,000 feet and slowed the aircraft to 180 knots indicated with the test engine at max continuous thrust. Instantaneously we shutdown the test engine and began a controlled descent, initially trying to hold 180 knots. During the descent at low speed we observed the N1 and N2 rotor speeds to ensure the the engine did not lock-up. As we got lower approaching FL200 we slightly increased airspeed and then relit the test engine using an assisted start procedure (cross-bleed start). For a while we were doing this for production engines to demonstrate that each engine was free of “core-lockup”. Eventually a ground test cell run-in procedure was developed so that we could ensure an engine would not lock-up. Your explanation of the mechanism causing the lock-up was great. The lock-up potential in a turbofan engine can be exacerbated by shaft-bow where the differential cooling between the case and the rotating group causes the shaft to experience high compressive loads causing it to bow slightly. The rotor clearances with the case can then become negative and the engine literally grinds to a stop. Thank you for your tireless efforts with your channel.
I love these videos that you create since they clearly explain some very complex topics. You also emphasis one of the hallmarks of aviation - accidents happen, but when they do,a tremendous effort is made to understand the root cause and fix the problem.
Really interesting read 👍
To stay at 41k feet.
-The nose is pitched up
-The engines are almost maxed out and are in the red
-The speed is decreasing
This would be an indication that the plane is struggling.
I’m not a pilot, but there is something to learn for everyone in each of these videos
Yes,student piloting applies to driving, SCUBA diving, cooking, hiking, hunting, camping, child rearing, etc.......
You look like a pilot
In a broad sense yes, but at the same not not so much. In my work I'm often dealing with a lot of complexity when things go wrong. When nothing is working, I can change my priorities and/or reassess by strategies. But a pilot might not have that luxury, if you're compentent and get it right you're like Sully, the hero on the Hundson, get it all wrong and you end like these two.
By taking short cuts based on likely causes, I can usually save a lot of time. But when I get it wrong, all I've done is waste time, i'm not going to kill anybody.
During a recent simulator session (A330) the sim instructor decided to have a little fun with us (it wasn’t part of the program). After failing one engine overhead Mont Blanc, he failed our second engine as well. I immediately started looking and heading for a runway. Geneva was on our right hand side. My focus was on flying and getting to a runway, my colleague immediately started to try and recover systems. We never got our engines back, but my colleague sure tried. He did manage to start the APU and we regained all instrumentation and were in full control and communication. We glided into a safe landing on runway 22 at Geneva and came to a safe standstill on the runway.
I hope this never happens to me in real life, but I sure want to be ready to handle it, if it does.
Im not a pilot, but I appreciate the fact that aviation as a industry really learns from the mistakes of the past. Its important in any profession to understand why we do things, and just as importantly, why we dont. I appreciate the fact that you as a pilot in training are seeking out information regarding the breakdown of past mistakes, bad decisions and mechanical failures. Ironically, watching these videos and then reading the comments of all the pilots in the comments makes me feel safer. These videos are entertainment for most, but theres valuable information here for anyone in the profession. I think theres always something to be learned and in this specific scenario of a pilot. Knowing specific accident breakdowns and being able to recall what caused them, what worked in fixing the issues, what didnt work and why it all happened in the first place seems so valuable. Thank you!
Really enjoy your comment 😊
As we have seen even in some of the videos that Mentour Pilot has made, simulator training of unusual or even "idiotic" situations could potentially be the difference between life and death when you are unlucky and end up being that one in a million and the seemingly impossible happens, so Im all for unusual excercises :)
Well done mate. You operated exactly as per procedures narrated by the host. Great to learn about aviation from pros like yourself.
Can you replicate the flight path of flight 77 - the commercial aircraft that hit the Pentagon on 9/11?
100m high for 1km.
Firstly you have to get into that crazy level then maintain it....as an amateur and on your first attempt?
No one can do it in a simulator.
Can you?
Can anyone?
It's a mystery still.
It'll solve 2.3 trillion questions.
Post links of the achievement if you can.
Peace
I had a fighter pilot instructor once for ppl training in a Cessna150 he said watch this and proceeded to show his skills as acrobatic moves go. I reminded him that this plane was abit low on oil , and the plane & we may not survive the toss. Ruined both of our temptation to joy ride at 25 years old each. But Im still here. Lost track of him. @1982. Now 2024. Keep the blue side up always if you have that choice.
I think this is a case of two personality types that fed each others weaknesses.
Once they started "playing" they just kept pushing each other to go further.
two burkes
If even one of the pilots was a more "strict" the other might not have been emboldened to try such a risky move. All that talk mentour does about CRM really makes this one hit harder because I NEVER would have expected this out of pilots.
Icarus flies too close to the sun. lol
@@GeneralKenobiSIYE These pilots are under my protection. If I see another “lol” out of you Im gonna start making jokes about Qui Gon Jinn. 41,000 feet means that they have high ground status for a while. So its over.
@@smoshfan439 Flying is for droids, also douche-Lords are my specialty.
EL-Oh-EL
This was so interesting. I am a female, 67, have no training in anything - I am just a cleaner. But this had me hooked. I think it was the no nonsense attitude and total profession way it was put across.
There's no such thing as just a cleaner Brenda. It matters not what you do in life, but how you do it.
@@sharkskinboy That is a lovely thing to say, and I thank you. I hope I do it well.x
Hello Brenda, hope u having a good day
Don't say JUST a cleaner
You're not JUST existing, you are a valuable human being with everything that comes attached to it
Don't devalue yourself please
I like Brenda. Have a great day!
I love the fact you go into a much more in depth analysis than TV shows like "Aircraft Investigations" that are dumber down for the average viewer. Your insight and technical knowledge of the facts surrounding these accidents makes for compelling viewing!
That’s great to hear! Thanks!
Agree, or the related examples illustrating what is being said. The TV show never budge from the core subject, or they "core lock" on the subject.
I'm a non pilot but find your information fascinating!
Quality is going from BEST to BEST + 1 after every episode is what I can say.
No adjectives can describe this amazing work!
I am enjoying a lot.
Thank you!!!
Thank you! Glad you found it interesting
@@MentourPilot THIS IS THE MOST INTERESTING INCIDENT . THANKS FOR ALL OF THE EFFORT AND SKILL THAT YOU PROVIDE!! FOR US.
I am an eye surgeon who as a teenager was a pilot of a 172 Cessna. The lessons I learned flying have influenced every aspect of my life. I think we rarely do things in life that don't have a "do over" safety card. The myriad of things that can happen while flying require that you be prepared to address them in a methodical and previously thought out way. The checklist before take off to the checklist in an engine failure or weather emergency require that you face the fact that you are not going to have a "do over" if you get this wrong. In surgery every detail should be thought out for the many possible issues you will encounter. Some are routine and you are familiar with how to address them. Some are more rare and when you see them begin to unfold you need a checklist to adjust and to keep 'flying" and to not begin to just try ideas. Indeed the mantra of my Alaska bush pilot instructor was "fly the plane". He meant of course keep making decisions based on the reality of the moment that you can react to. He would turn the fuel tank knob to the off position and the engine would stop. Looking at the propeller he would turn and say "what are you going to do?" Fly the plane..so drop the nose and keep my airspeed, look for a place to land and direct the plane in that direction, attempt to restart the engine, call mayday, maintain gliding speed into the wind if possible, line up with the field or road way, drop flaps, push the nose down to maintain airspeed, then attempt restart, then put the wheels on the ground, except he would flip the tank and the engine restarted and I would climb out a little pissed but smarter. He would say any landing you walk away from is a good landing, don't worry about how it looks or the condition of the aircraft. So I have the ability to take cases that would have led to slower recovery or visual problems and have the patient looking the next day as if it was an uneventful case. But this is from recognizing that I can land the plane in every situation if I keep flying by the checklist that fits the situation that is evolving. Here it would appear that they were at first covering up the 41 club errors as they didn't follow the basic rule that I learned as a 16 year old. Nose down maintain airspeed, then look for a place to land, for them ATC would have provided that, point the plane in that direction then attempt to restart and ultimately land safely on a runway well within reach. The lessons of flying can apply to many critical situations you have in your life. Keep making choices, focus on a achievable goal, stay positive keep flying the plane!
This is so fascinating to hear. Thank you for sharing. I have always been so terrified of getting out of my box and doing things that made me scared and I knew I was taking a risk. Flying is one. I get sick to my stomach from the turbulence and get clammy. I continue to remain calm and know that gods got me. The Pilots are doing all that they know to protect me. We take risks everyday. Driving down the road, flying or riding in a plane. Leaving home in general. I thinks its crazy how he put you through those procedures but he had to make sure you would do what you're supposed to for the safety of yourself and others. Thanks for sharing.
I think your comment is as valuable and entertaining as the video itself. And that’s greatly enhanced by a clear writing style that indicates that you took something more than biology and chemistry.
My father is a pilot. He was also a flight instructor. You helped me to better understand what I thought I knew….
Richard, I have the highest regard for eye surgeons. Almost two years ago now I damaged my right eye in a full-blame stupid accident in my kitchen, when I managed to bang my head very hard on the kitchen table in the dark. (Don't ask!😏). Long story short I caused a macular-hole in the right eye. Everything viewed through my right eye when I closed the left was horribly distorted. This wonderful eye-surgeon implanted a gas bubble in the macula which had the effect over time of pulling the damaged tissues together. He did tell me that the eye would never again be as good as it was before the accident, but I would say that it is something in the region of 90 percent as good. For this I am so grateful. His assistant also did the cataract in that eye as part of the operation. How you guys actually do all this what must be so minuscule and delicate work in and at the back of people's eyes is quite beyond me - huge respect.
Excellent comment, Richard. :)
Oh, so beautifully written Richard...
Keep flying your planes everyone! 🛫 🙌🏼
The 2 pilots, in the last few seconds, kept the gear up and no flaps, so as to minimize fatalities on the ground, but, at the same time, removing any chance they, themselves, had of surviving. In the end their last decision was, incredibly, noble.
Curious Why would flaps down flaps increase fatalities? Is it that they might hit more homes?
@@livenfree Be advised, I am not a pilot and have barely any idea on flight mechanics, but:
My guess would be that because the flaps increase lift they would also reduce the braking force on the ground, and therefore increase the distance the plane travels across the ground before coming to a stop.
A longer distance on the ground means higher chance to hit a building and/or injure people.
Same reasons go for the landing gear.
@@semurobo sounds reasonable
"Conjecture" pure conjecture... as to pilots' "considerations about affecting other folks."
I.e. the collisions would also affect the plane's survivability.😛
@@semurobo Not quite. Lowering the flaps increases low speed lift, provided there's thrust. They also increase drag. Without thrust, the drag slows them down a lot more. They wanted to fly past the houses instead of coming down on top of them.
I am from Mentour pilot Petter Patreon crew. One year into channel. If you have a surface meningioma there's a good recovery rate. I met a guy 1971 who had it and complete recuperation. It took a short time to heal. Don't shy àway, Thank you for sharing because there is a stigma when some people hear about a braiñ disturbançe. They associate it with meñtal health. My friend was a subway dispatcher in NY USA who also recovered from a brain surgery in 1980. He still worked for several years afterwards and retired at 67 years old. God bless you & good luck.
In over 50 years of flying, the words that scare me the most, "Just watch this"
Almost as bad as "Hold my beer."
honestly, if i was in a plane and i'd know that the pilots adress each other with 'dude'... that would make me kind of uneasy too.
Heck I'm not a pilot but I know when one of my friends says watch this, we'll I just call 911 for the ambulance.
@@Zwangsworkaholic Extremely unprofessional behavior. Yes, I might call my friend, going out for the night out on the town, "dude". But I would never address my coworker on the flight deck as "dude" or "bro" or whatever, regardless of how familiar I am with him.
It is extremely dangerous, and sets up a casual attitude, seriously putting "professionalism" in executing ones duties in serious jeopardy!!
@@fhuber7507 You must be psychic, because you read my mind.
I have this mental Bingo card I use whenever I read a Florida Man story (or those of his cousins from other states), and under the column, "Things said by the victim" are "watch this" and "hold ma' beer". (One of the other columns, "Events leading up to the Event", has the "we were sitting around drinking" and "It sounded like a good idea at the time".)
I call the card, "Accident Investigation Bingo".
I was a gliding instructor for about seven or eight years (it was a while ago) and ended up with something approaching 2,000 launches on gliders. All the time, I had this vague feeling that my limitations were much greater than the placard limitations on the aircraft. I think it made me get out of certain situations very early. Perhaps earlier than strictly necessary, but I had a highly developed sense of danger. Complacency and overconfidence are deadly in many situations, but the air is particularly unforgiving of them. I used to read the gliding accident reports regularly, and my usual reaction was to think "I wouldn't have done that!" Followed soon after by the thought "Actually, I can imagine a situation where I might have done that." An older instructor said to me that he read the reports thinking to himself "nearly done that, nearly done that, done that but got away with it ..." Very good video.
As a glider pilot, you can't throttle up any engine to get speed. It is essential to put the nose down until you get the speed you need. We are doing training for this even near the ground in case of cable breaks during launch. Put the nose down until the speed builds up. We do this at 300 feet, even at 100. These guys had 40.000 feet for free and didn't manage to keep up their speed! Reminds me of the Air France 447 crash.
"highly developed sense of danger" That is so well said... thank you!
@@chrisehmke1651 But cant you stall a plane so badly that you lose controll over rudders?
Like planes diving tail first and tumbel spin or eny other oriantaion thats not forward?
Or should you know how to fly a akward faceing plane?
Im not a pilot, but i like planes and would like to get my licens one day.
@@rambo8863 airplanes are configured so that the center of gravity (CG) is always forward of the center of lift. That way they are inherently stable as long as the pilot does not screw it up.
Appreciate your honesty. That is part of integrity too.
The fact that your final moments may lead to you being remembered as being unprofessional and having poor airmanship should be pretty strong motivation to quit screwing around.
Of course, but you never think that it's going to be YOU who crashes
It seems to me, that they made a series of bad decisions, after the screwing around. That was fatal, not the screwing around itself. They had manny opportunities to avoid the accident.
The fact that your last contribution to humanity is doing your best not to kill anyone else besides yourself should be, too.
They were just having fun :(
In my eyes they went admirably. They spent their last moments trying to correct their mistakes and make sure they didn’t take anymore lives in the process. Its commendable. Regardless of how “avoidable” the situation may or may not have been. Literally everything is avoidable with hindsight. The NTSB is useless without crashes to conduct investigations on. Humans have been progressing through trial and error for over 2 million years. Apparently all that means is a lot of people have to die in order for safety to actually be a thing.
I’m not a pilot but your program mesmerizes me every time. You are a fantastic communicator and l always learn something even as a 65 year old grandmothers. Thank you.😊
Oh, that’s so nice to hear from someone with your experience! Thank you!
My friend was an ATC and worked with the ATC working with this flight. I knew this was in his air traffic region and was describing this flight to him. He said she was badly shaken by what happened. She had cleared them to fly at the higher altitude, but wasn't responsible for them goofing off.
She is innocent
@@bythelakeguy6147 yes, I am aware.
Wow. Often women suffer some guilt ... enabling. Of course, law and common understanding in this as in professional situations find atc guiltless in this case. Human nature is what it is.
The controller could not have said "no" to them. There wasn't a reason not to. There wasn't any traffic above them. The pilots are responsible for the aircraft.
@@QueenCallisto ...guess you know more than the rest of us... Maybe she dint know the make of the aircraft ...maybe the cap sounded sure snd determined . tough job ...and i only worked for an ex controller after Reagan fired em all... She wuz a good boss. But she woulda felt bad. Not to the point of guilt but bad.
"ah, we've had a non-zero amount of engine failures."... These guys ended up losing their lives, basically because they knew they had messed up big time, and that they're pretty much already fired, careers over once the stall happened. I think it was the "we're already completely screwed" mindset caused by their first series of mistakes, that caused them to then just continue making bad decisions. That gear up I don't want to go into houses comment is extra sad, because it's basically the pilot having a moment of "We've already killed ourselves with our bad decisions, let's try to not kill anyone else."
it is also a basic commercial airline pilots training 101. (to seek as non populated area as is possible). Is this not standard military training?
Agree 100%
@@hualani6785 While it is basic training to avoid populated areas, they had already ignored so much of their basic training getting into this situation that them making a point to say they weren't going to deploy the gear to minimize risk to people had an impact on me. It was basically the point where they spoke into existence that they were definitely going to die but they wanted to do it in a way that only affected them.
V sad
Would they definately have lost their jobs, as many comments suggest, if they had properly communicated dual engine failure and did a successful emergency landing with the proper priority?
I’m so glad there were no casualties on the ground, and so sorry they didn’t live to know they avoided harming others. This is such a sad story, even though others have more loss of life. I’m glad they do more high altitude training for stalls.
I think that this is why I was so broken by the statement that somehow no one else died. Their last thoughts were that they had failed to avoid innocent casualties. They will never know that they managed to avoid killing anyone but themselves. Somehow, despite how blatantly it is that this was entirely their fault, I feel the most sadness towards them than I have out of any of the other pilots that died in other accidents that were almost entirely out of their control.
I have watched this video a couple of times since you released it, this time it was because it Autoplayed the next video whilst I was answering the door, & I just left it running, because I love to listen to your voice - I find your voice comforting, your knowledge interesting & your enthusiasm heartwarming.
Each time I’ve heard this story I have taken something different away with me - the first time was the impact of the tragic outcome, which was so obviously avoidable if the pilots had just been professional, the second time was the aerodynamic aspects you detailed, but this time it was your compassion in your presentation for the facts.
Thank you Petter, thank you for your knowledge, your passion for aviation & thank you for having the type of voice that just draws the listener in.
I am a Dr and specialist in anaesthesia and like pilots we have hours and hours of boredom and occasional seconds to minutes of terror.
The world of anaesthesia shares many parallels with the aviation industry and there is a lot to learn from your videos which make me a better Doctor. Thank you.
You are absolutely correct. There are many parallels here.
Glad to hear from you!
Another physician (not a pilot at all), and had the exact same thought (hours of routine, minutes of emergency). Also that both medicine and flying are fields where mistakes must be avoided at all costs, and how to address/avoid when humans can make mistakes.
@@MentourPilot I spent 17 years working as a firefighter and paramedic. Also been a pilot since I was 16. I think another often overlooked aspect to all of this is the neurophysiology controlling how your brain is handling being inundated with critical tasks. We can't actually multi-task, we are jumping from one to the other without actually completing it. So to combat this, you develop an internal flowchart for handling different situations. If this, do this. And you train those responses over and over and over until they become muscle memory. After a while, handling chaotic quickly evolving situations becomes much more second nature. If we want pilots to respond in a way that is most conducive to as safe a landing as possible, then there needs to be more time spent training, and not just tabletop exercises, but simulations and in air stall training with certified instructors. One of the best things I ever did was seek out a trainer who would walk you through different stalls, then show you how to recover. By doing that over and over, if I feel a stall I know the first immediate steps to take to begin rectifying the issue. Not saying they don't both share a large share of the culpability here, but if the published service ceiling is 41k, and the VS a/p is engaged, the plane should either give a master caut or auto level off and engage spd hold to prevent a stall. Falls on the manufacturers to implement fail safes where possible to make the plane inherently less prone to human error, and reviewing emergency procedures for ease of use in imparting important flight envelope information. Accidents are never caused by just one failure in the system, blaming that is to ignore the larger framework that caused or allowed the failure to occur in the first place.
I'm about as far the other direction in profession...I am a school bus driver, and instructor. We too, have similar hours of boredom. But its in the moments of boredom when we could change the lives of an entire community. If a school bus driver isn't 100% attentive, we have the potential to lose children. In my particular school district, this hasn't happened in nearly 20 years, but its a sobering reminder to always stay alert, stay professional, and keep distractions put away. We don't have a QRH for situations that can arise on school buses, but I am going to try to press for us to start having checklists and quick references for those times when things don't go as planned. Thank you for the educational videos, they are much appreciated.
thanks for keeping me alive! (and multiple other family members). Anesthesia is a strange, but great thing. Really appreciate people like you.
Thank you for making aviation available even to ppl like myself, an 83 year old widow, who was petrified of fllying. Can't say I have lost that fear, but I realy enjoy your teachings,... and... I just LOVE your Swedish accent!!
I hope you are doing good Ma'am
Same here @margaret. I'm a 77 year old widow having been surrounded by husband and son in the parachuting, freefall world.
Son now into flying, loves the discipline and thought processes which go into it.
I am very very risk adverse, but have found myself enthralled by your videos and their clear, concise and practical interpretations. If he hasn't found you already, I will point my son in the right direction.
PS At least I can talk a bit knowledgeably about some of he abbreviations!!)
This series has been so cool. Lots of knowledge to be gained for even an amateur enthusiast. Thank You !!!!
I found his channel after I flew for the first time..I wanted to learn about flying...4 years later I still love his videos
I have over 700 hours and I learn from Peter every video
@@rob3910 I only have 200 but... ditto ;-)
Cool it's not the right word dude, tragic is the right word. Let's see how cool you would have been in theirs situation...
@@anderssvensk4317 they’re not talking about this incident. They’re talking about the series
I did high hazard chemical emergency response for many years. NTSB investigated many of the actions my group handled. In my work it wasn’t unusual for youthful high jinks, horseplay and over familiarity with dangerous chemicals and machinery to be a factor in events my team dealt with.
Was maybe the root cause of this crash a mature pilot feeling the normal mixed emotions of “settling into family life”, and getting caught up in a 23 yr old’s undisciplined titillation in pushing limits and flying for thrills rather than to do his job of getting a high dollar item from A to B within parameters. To me, it seems the captain utterly failed this young man by not constraining his youthful impulse and using the opportunity to teach and develop him. Youth commanded here not wisdom, that role reversal seemed physically embodied by them switching chairs.
I absolutely love this channel. Enough great investigative detail to keep a me as a former professional responder engaged (and entertained). But he and the production team also offer enough explanation of technical aviation details, for easy understanding. Hats off to them!
Today I learned core lock is a thing. A very, very bad thing. I'm also very impressed with the aircraft. 29 degrees nose up at 41,000 feet? Still flying? That plane was trying very hard to keep everyone alive and almost succeeded.
Indeed
That poor little engine that could, something like 25% past redline.
@@MentourPilot I am a bit confused about which parts of the engine are actually involved in this core lock. And why this is constructed this way.
@@RandomUser2401 "core" on this CF34 engine refers to the N2 spool which contains the high pressure compressor section on one end and" the high pressure turbine wheels on the other end. There is a second spool integrated with the core that has a fan on one end and low pressure turbine on the other end. They are free to rotate independently. The engine is not designed to "core lock" that is just an unfortunate mode of operation when the engine is allowed to stop rotating at other than a normal shutdown. The core shaft becomes stuck and is not able to start rotating again. In this case one engine was thermally damaged beyond limits and simply could not be started no matter what. Too bad they didn't know that as much time was wasted trying to start an unusable engine.
@@buckmurdock2500 Thanks a lot for all that info, great! So the two spools are still concentric and very close? If yes, then I am a bit unclear why that is necessary, also in the video he mentions that they normally do interlock during normal operation as long as the engine is rotating?
I think the fact that their first instincts and last acts were to try to avoid hitting others on the way to their fates is really telling of the types of people these two were. It's unfortunate that they had such a huge lapse in judgement. They really could have hurt or killed other people, and unfortunately they did so to themselves in the end. It really couldn't have been worth it. This is so sad, especially hearing how excited they both were.
What a waste of pilot training aircraft and life. Tragic. I hope others learn from this.
I mean, so what? They are 100% responsible for their actions, and that they decided after they put people at risk to try get out of that isn't admirable. Admirable would've been not causing the need to make the decision in the first place.
There is nothing to admire here. We have such low standards for men.
I feel the same way... a lot of people talk in these comments about how immature and unprofessional they were, which is true, but I mostly just feel sad about how they tried to be selfless in their last moments but died
I'm not sure if I would go that far. They crashed the plane into a populated area and it seems they only killed themselves mostly due to some luck.
one thing that could help would be if airlines held some kind of recurring (every year? Every 2 years? idk) "aerobatics flights" where a plane would be flown with just pilots onboard and under the supervision of veteran high time pilots they would be allowed to perform maneuvers near the edge of the performance envelope on an empty aircraft.
As humans we all get the itch to "push it" "try it", it's like owning a motorcycle: even if you're really level headed, you sometimes want to turn all the throttle, you want to reach the redline.
Killing that itch with a performance oriented flight where everyone gets to try a couple higher G pulls and climb up would probably help have a safer and more relaxed environment
My flight instructor told me something that I remember every time I watch one of these accident videos. He said "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots".
Wise words, although there was this guy named Yeager...
@@hrdley911 He was an exception and it's highly likely that his displays of "boldness" and their risks, ramifications and potential correctives were thoroughly considered well in advance.
@@frankmiller95
I'm not sure he was an exception. You can be bold in wartime (you have to be) and then as a test pilot you are meticulous and cautious, because you appreciate you are going where no one has gone before..
Yeah there are, and they're called crop dusters.
@@pilotavery 8^)...
Unfortunately I watch your videos way faster than you can produce them.
Amazing content, truly.
Thank you!
I like how you don't criticize and never pronounce judgements. Always looking at the best in people. Good job!
Another way of saying "looking at the world through rose colored glasses".
The "best in people" would be valid if this was something they had not deliberately caused. Instead they chose to clown around putting innocents at risk on the ground. It was a tragic waste of their lives and needless pain for their families all because unprofessional behavior going against every aviation safety protocol. Having said that it is commendable and I respect them when they were close to the end and voiced their concerns about hitting houses.
If either of these joy-riding morons had done their best this incident would not have occurred.
@@mortimerschnerd3846 No it's not. It's finding good things to learn even from the worst of people.
Even though the pilots behaved unprofessionally. Their last moments were spent thinking about how to minimize harm to people on the ground. That is a noble death, lessons to be learned there and an attitude of servitude to be replicated.
Thanks for covering this accident. Putting everything else aside for a moment, this crew was in a perfectly functioning aircraft and at the ceiling altitude - a dream scenario for a restart or an emergency landing on the glide, yet it ended in disaster. Quite often we hear about accidents where a crew was battling a failing aircraft or simply didn't have enough height to recover, yet here we have the opposite. As you say, it's a tragic reminder of the need to stay professional, stick to standard operating procedures, Identify the problem and take the correct action. If they had gone by the book from the first stall warning, they would have been talking about it in the bar later that day. Once again, a great series Petter, thanks!
Well said. That's why I compared these pilots to teenagers in another comment: to my mind, only immaturity can account for the fact that they failed to retrieve the situation. They managed to screw up a situation that experienced pilots would normally be cool with. Not saying it would be easy, but in such a plane, without passengers to worry about, they could do it.
@@moviemad56 Yeah, maybe I'm not qualified to comment since I only fly hang gliders, but I don't understand not instinctively knowing that maintaining altitude in stall recovery only matters when you're trying to conserve altitude. That just sounds so obvious. Stick shaker at 41k? push the nose down. Even if you break your flight level. A mild stall in a hang glider can take about 20 feet to recover from. And these guys were at just under 10x the speed I fly at, so the altitude to recover from a moderate stall for them would be the square of that ratio, so 10^2 x20 feet = 2000 feet. It just seems so intuitive to push the nose down to prevent a stall, especially when you've got more altitude to burn than you've ever had before in your life, even if you bust the flight level. I guess it makes me wonder about how many of the pilots of commercial airliners lack that fundamental bit of airmanship, since this FO and the FO on the Air France flight that stalled all the way down to the water had no idea how to respond. I wonder what percentage of pilots have actually stalled commercial aircraft (not just the simulators), and what percentage of them recovered properly.
@@ahgflyguy That must be why glider pilot makes better powered aircraft pilot. The engine can mask a lot of mistake until the day when it doesn't.
If they had gone by the book they would never have stalled to begin with. Total lack of professionalism. Why is bragging at a bar afterwards such a big deal and more important than safety?
This incident always makes me upset to listen to, until it comes to the gear up to try to avoid houses. Then it hits me that it's still a tragic loss of life, even though it could've been prevented by standard procedures. The pilots tried to hide their mistakes, probably out of fear of losing their jobs (rightly so), and dug themselves deeper and deeper into a hole until they couldnt dig out of it. Only then realizing how wrong they were, but too late to save themselves.
Losing your job is less serious than losing your life.
Thanks for calling it an incident and not an "accident". This was certainly no accident.
@@BOB-wo2nb What, they intentionally crashed the plane? Please.
@@BOB-wo2nb You're saying they intentionally crashed the plane?
In the end they were only concerned with preventing civilian deaths. Amazing they crash landed in neighborhood & no one else died. 31 y.o. & 21 y.o. did some REALLY stupid stuff and lost their lives. RIP
@@GG-kn2se "accident" means no one is at fault and that it couldn't be prevented. That is most certainly not the case here, as the crash very much could have been prevented simply by not monkeying about with the plane, thus the proper term is "incident". All crashes are "incidents", no matter if they're planes, cars, trains, ships, or whatever, unless it can be proven to be an "accident"
I have only recently discovered this TH-cam channel but I would like to thank you for your extremely lucid and authoritative presentation. To pick up on one of your points I was always very surprised when my fellow pilots used V/S to climb without being aware of the potential problems, particularly with two perfectly good modes, VNAV and FLTCH (Flight level change) being available - this on a B747-400. This accident perfectly illustrates what can happen when things start to go wrong and you have already passed through the first (and possibly second) slice of the Swiss cheese.
I retired from aviation 20 years ago, but retain an interest and hope that the safety culture of “no fault reporting” will maintain the excellent safety record of civil aviation, despite the inevitable cowboys.
This is probably the video I've gotten most out of. I'm a trainee lorry driver and I'm finding it interesting how much I can learn from these as regards to why people make mistakes and how to prevent them.
Please make sure you get enough rest daily.
My professional career was in high-end IT (retired). You *always* follow procedure and stick with professionalism since, even if an accident occurs, it provides the most cover. And trust me, when the guano hits the turbine you're gonna need every scrap of backside covering.
To relay a personal experience, I was performing some upgrades to the house and hit the natural gas line servicing the residence... For three seconds I pondered my options to keep the issue as low-key as possible. And after that, I followed procedure to the letter -- call 911, then call the natural gas company, and suffer the coming circus with stoicism.
A pre-plan notification for the digging work was already in existence. I followed procedure to the letter for a line strike... Yes, the half-dozen first responder vehicles on-scene along with gas company representatives was somewhat embarrassing. But, at this point, it's all about minimal embarrassing. And, minimally embarrassing is adhering to procedure and maintaining professionalism.
"For three seconds I pondered my options to keep the issue as low-key as possible."
This was definitely the best takeaway I got from both the video and your story. Goofing off by going to 41,000, the rated limit for that airplane, wasn't the problem, and wasn't what caused the fatalities.
The problem was the fear of guilt that led them to their fatalities. Embarrassed and alive is better than the alternative, especially when it involves the lives of others as well.
The half-dozen first response vehicles is worth it every day of the week, taking up a few hours of 10-20 people's time, is far better than losing 40 years+ of human life per casualty if the natural gas were to ignite into the exposed line. Same for the 60 years+ lost is this airplane incident, simply because they didn't have the guts to say double-engine failure to the ATC.
Yea, it's horrible, embarrassing and scary when you really screw up with serious stuff. But sometimes you gotta just eat the s**t and minimise risk. It often works out that you get another chance because you did the right thing anyway.
"...when the guano hits the turbine..." - I see what you did there. :D
@@JohnSmith-eg6bl Glad you got a tickle out of that... I usually have similar in most of my worthwhile posts and/or comments. Although, it's very rare anyone comments on them specifically.
Thanks for the giggle!
@@satunnainenkatselija4478 I've never worked on a turbine engine. Although, it is a goal of mine to build one from a junkyard automotive turbo charger some day...
To your question about the natural gas leak.. I was putting in new PVC pipe runs from the home gutter downspouts to the street curb. I hit the gas line with a manual shovel severing the line.
Just before that last plunge into the soil, I thought, "Maybe I should start using the hand trowel? Yeah, after this next shovel full..."
It’s absolutely insane to think that if they had just done one incredibly simple thing when the initial stickshaker warning occurred the entire sequence of events that followed would have never occurred. Pitching the nose down would have increased speed and lift preventing a stall as well as cooled the engines enough to start spinning and start up and they could have carried on without incident and with a greater and healthier sense of respect for their aircraft and aviation as a whole.
It appears the FO pitched down but not for long enough. Why did they switch places? If the captain had been in control, it could have ended very differently.
@@pattydella4 i think its casual flight and captain want to let FO try out pilot flying for 1 time, 1st and last time in his whole life.
Very sad that his first time acting as captain for real showed that he was not professional enough to be one.
Did you not watch the video?
They pitched down, but also pitched up to level too soon and did not gain enough lift to prevent another stall due to high altitude. This is because they were trained to prevent stalls in a way that minimizes altitude loss, but significant altitude loss is necessary at high altitudes.
@@sujimayne This is a severe flaw in training if the pilots are taught to maintain altitude above all else. One of the most common themes on this channel is pilots losing control by ignoring air speed (and the most common mistake being pilots ignoring the artificial horizon).
For people like them , you figure it out what needs to be done and the vulnerabilities of the planes. Applaud them
You know it's a bad one when the introduction mentions the pilots being good people with families before telling you anything about what happened.
*OnLy those who Know the Lord Jesus are GOOD PeopLe!!!*
*Those PiLots had ReJected the Lord Jesus! & Now they are HOT, for ALL ETERNITY !!!*
Someone missed the memo about "Judge not" i see..
They paid the ultimate price for THEIR mistake
Havent YOU ever done anything dumb? 1 John 1:8
@@JustindeEugeneWhyIQuitDeMonRat obviously you’re not one
@@JustindeEugeneWhyIQuitDeMonRat jesus wouldnt like you
So sad that one of their final decisions was to keep the landing gear up, basically dropping their own survival chances to zero, to try to gain some additional distance to avoid killing people in their houses.
Im 62 and tend to be more of a history buff, but stumbled on these video after a you tube recommendation, which is very strange choice for me. But I have been really enjoying learning about how airplanes work, why people make the decisions they do, and the choices people make when under duress. Also, a great admiration for those who work so hard to figure out what exactly lead up to the accident, and what happened in the plane be it mechanical, or human error.
Very good report , I flew the CRJ 100 ,200,700 and 900 several years as a TRI and TRE and I was allowed to perform TestFlights after C and D checks . The engine in the CRJ 100/200 came from the A10 , it has a so called inertial separater , the air has to make a sharp turn inwards after the fan and stator , all heavier particles cant hit the core engine ( ice,birds etc.) the core engine has 14 compressor stages with 5 VGV. s . on the N1 shaft . Windmill start was only possible when the PF flew the plane with 300KIAS for a long time ,initial descent rate 6000 f/ min. !! The decision to do so , or fly best glide speed has to make in a early stage . APU start below FL300 and bleed assisted start below FL 240 . The pilot monitoring was very busy with QRH to be ready to start when passing FL240 .The starter was so powerful to brake the core lock loose ! But what we learned was never ever more than 5 degrees pitch above FL320 depending on weight
otherwise you’re behind the power curve !!!
Thank you for that great insight! I love hearing from colleagues.
@@MentourPilot would be good if we could pin more than one comment eh?! YT needs to fix that!
I'm just curious why you know this but these pilots didn't? I guess this kind of knowledge is neither required nor expected of pilots and is an extracurricular activity?
I've been binging your videos lately, and i think this one really encapsulates what I take away from watching these. That even if the mistakes made were mostly at the hands of people being irresponsible, the core tenant is to learn and keep people safe, not to blame someone for everything. Watching your videos helps me understand how to learn and grow as a person and I really appreciate that.
This accident is so bizarre, that there had to be a video of you about. Thank you
Technical enough, yet simple for every day Joe. Excellent. Really very well done.
There's been a few times like now where I considered not watching one of these videos since I saw the incident on another video. Once again like each time I am glad I did. There are so many more things I learned from this video than the other I saw before. It is always nice to get different perspectives. Never feel bad about making a video on an accident/incident you feel like may have been done already. I think everyone brings their own ideas and input so even if you have heard of an accident before you always learn something new. Thank you Mentour!
Imposter!
Walter don't forget you're partly responsible for a mid air collision over Albuquerque New Mexico!!!
@@trentcruise3084 Yeah, he lives in the White house, so he is suspicious anyway. And he carries a Walter without even knowing. That man is dangooroos. Do you understand his many words? I don't!
Totally agree
I think it’s because a lot of the other ones are produced by enthusiasts with a decent bit of knowledge and reports. MP is an actual pilot(and other pilot/air institute channels) so we get a unique view of how someone who could be in that situation would be able to interpret plus just in general the more technical knowledge. I can tell you other videos wouldn’t have had the section on the engine core lock with cool animations.
This story saddened me the most. They were so young, and when they refused to admit they lost both engines this further reflected their age. And when the captain decided not extend the landing gear.. man that almost made me tear up. RIP
The interesting thing to me about these videos is that they really show why aviation is so safe: Whenever there is an incident, it is taken seriously and changes are mandated to reduce the likelihood of that mode (or modes) of failure in future. Compare that to automobiles, where drivers are barely trained by comparison, and the same mistakes get made over and over. So even though planes are inherently more risky than cars (since you can't just pull a plane over when something goes wrong) because of the way they are operated the overall risk is reduced to well below that of cars.
Not only that, many countries don’t change traffic situations. A lot of accidents can be avoided by investigating unsafe designs in roads and passages. The Dutch are doing just that and it really makes road use safer.
There's a Boeing documentary on Netflix.🤔
As a student pilot I understand that my piper warrior is a very very different aircraft to the type you talk about but still, seeing any other response to a high altitude stall being anything other than "nose down, gain speed" blows my mind. I get that the mind defaults to training in crisis, it's a shame the training that was defaulted to was not far back enough.
This happens more than you think.....hope your traning is going well...!!
Wishing you the best with training :)
Watching these videos, I wonder if pilots lack training with situations far outside of the normal. And that some kind of "completely crazy airlines" in a simulator could help. It would fill the need for experimentation, as well as train pilots in really crazy situations.
even as somone who only had a brief affair with some oldskool computer simulators, I also know you have to gain airspeed to get out of the stall
Even as someone who's just played games where you can fly, I know this. I really don't understand how they fumbled the bag so badly.
Really I don't know how quickly my 40 mins went away watching this.
As it ended I saw that I was watching it for last 40 minutes but it appeared as if I played it 5 seconds back.
Really whole episode went in a flash.
Great work!
Thank you Sir!!
Thank you for that! That’s a very good grade to get.
Same. I have definitely watched 4 minute videos which felt longer than this one. This is the kind of high quality content that the TH-cam algorithm has mostly killed. Thank you for making these awesome videos! 😊
@@MentourPilot your videos get better every week with the phenomenal editing, research and delivery, the only problem now is waiting for your next episode is that much tougher! To be entertained and educated at the same time is priceless. Keep up the GREAT work, we all appreciate your dedication and effort! 😀
@@MentourPilot Compare 1930s Nazi Germany Vs 2020s Communist Chinazi IN YOUR NEXT VIDEO Project.
I am not a pilot but I really enjoy your videos. You have gone over a number of accidents that i have seen other videos on but hearting from a pilot really changes things. You are also great at dumbing it down for us wingless types! Great work sir!
The NTSB has such a special way of saying 'screwing around' in the first cause listed.
I’m a former USN/USMC flight test engineer. We’re taught to use “matter of fact” speech. We try to ensure that no personal opinions or bias is introduced into our reports. Lay out the facts and determine the test results. Personal opinions are a no no.
I’m not in the aviation field but just love listening to these. I appreciate the breakdown of every accident. I’ve also learned some really cool stuff & learning is literally the best part of life.
Me too. I know nothing about flying, but he explains things so well I actually understand the main points, and he does give outstanding advice as well. I watch his videos often and think of my father and brother who wanted to be pilots 💙✈
So relieved that no one on the ground was killed as a result of those guys "goofing off".
The only positive thing which can be said about this story. It´s something which lets you speechless.
I was working for ExpressJet at this time and we all thought pilots were probably having a good bit of fun on repo flights, but this was pretty shocking.
I think the only redeeming thing the captain did on this flight was keeping the gear up in an attempt to avoid ground casualties. He knew he screwed up and he didn't want people on the ground to pay for his errors even at greater risk to his own safety.
@@tafdiz That's the problem, right? These machines are incredibly complicated and you don't know how exactly they work. I wonder how many people even knew about this "core lock" situation can happen before this accident. More the reason to stick to procedures so you don't get into these "edge case scenarios", where unusual stuff can happen.
@@tafdiz In the dumb quest for that "less than one percent efficiency increase", engine designs are reaching critical points. Just look at how bad went the literal destruction of the engine nacelle and front ring on the B777 powered by the PRATT and WHITNEY PW-4000 engines that threw a too large fan blade due to fatigue! They tested the engines on a mock-up fixture at the shop, but forgot to test the entire nacelle when testing to blade failure! Talk about insufficient testing, like TACA Flight 110 (badly designed ice and water injestion test) or Boeing testing the effect of Thrust Reverser uncommanded opening testing only at low altitude, that took an extraordinary person like Niki Lauda in order to take Boeing out of their stupidity!
I'm a train driver and the situation of a positioning flight rings very true to us as well, we have what's called Light engine movements (LE) which are trains ran with no carriages passengers or cargo just the locomotive itself. they are quite rare as well. Everything in terms of locomotive/vehicle behaviour is completely different to a fully loaded train, whenever I've ran a LE movement the atmosphere is always enjoyable exciting and all round fun because of the unusual circumstances, and we tend to have a bit of fun within the means of the rules and regulations that we're required to also learn off by heart like pilots. I completely understand how the pilots felt like they didn't have the same responsibilities as on a regular flight feeling they could take some liberties. I'm not excusing that behaviour at all but it just rings very true to the similarities of a locomotive Cab and a Cockpit
Lessons learned:
- The most dangerous skill level to have is when you know enough to get yourself into a dangerous situation, but not enough to get out of it. Beginners and masters tend to know there are limits to what they can handle, it's the intermediate level that is most likely to get in over their heads.
- Breaking the rules is a bad idea for many reasons, but one of them is that when you break the rules and get into trouble, you may be more likely to focus on covering your mistakes instead of asking for help. But whatever you do, don't lie about your situation when help is offered!
- The +1 rule. There is always one more factor in the situation you aren't aware of (the unexpectedly dangerous engine design), always one more thing that goes wrong than you expected (not being able to start either engine for no apparent reason), always one more mistake that you are making that you aren't aware of (trying to get to an airport that is no longer in glide range). If you push the limits to the point of there being no margin for error, the +1 is going to get you.
- Don't minimize your gut feeling or sense of threat. When you start getting that sneaking suspicion that "something's wrong, this might be a bad situation", you are often already deep into a bad situation and need to recognize that immediately. Don't keep acting like everything's fine.
- There is no safe way to do unsafe things. Even if there are no passengers on board, you can still get people on the ground killed.
Very well put. It's as the saying goes, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
@@Arkalius80 At least little bit I get form watching these video will never be put to practice. So I and everyone around me should be safe from me flying an airplane.
Yes.
I always try to keep especially the +1 rule in mind and compensate for it.
This comment should be pinned.
Good thoughts. Back in 1979 in Idaho my kayaking instructor told me about your first item. It's the novice that gets killed on the river. Beginners are too scared to try something stupid, experts know better, but the novice ... It's a rule that applies to all activities with consequence.
I've been following your videos for a while...I'm a 71-year-old Dutch man who didn't have English lessons before, but German and French, but I want to express my great respect to you for the way you can still watch the movies in a calm way explain so that I understand it too....and of course the professional way in which you do this. I once flew a C172 myself, 26 lessons but it never got a license, 42 years ago. I hope you continue with your movies, I enjoy them. (my name is Bram from the town Haarlem, 15 kms from Schiphol)
You should try Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020! Obviously not even close to the real deal, but with modern graphics you would definitely enjoy it. Runs on PCs and modern videogame consoles like an Xbox.
Such a tragedy that didn't use all that altitude they had to their advantage.
Penny Lane ... It's all to do with physics.........The narrator explained it very well.
They had 6 airports at 41 grand ,the very first thing they should have done was set up for the best one ,and do everything else to try and restart after they established a plan and they would have made it
@@sydbarrett4518 They were too worried about getting fired once they flamed out. They would have to answer to the man when asked why were you at 41k feet going slow enough to stall. They assumed they had enough height to restart so that way they could figure out how to keep their jobs but by the time it was too late...cloud layer...they knew it was no more birthdays.
No. More. Birthdays.
Sir! You are an awesome mentor. Actually you explained all the happenings in an understandable way, no matter how complicated and technical the things were.
I am not a pilot and am, in fact, fairly terrified of flying, but, for some reason, your explanations and information are clear, concise, and comforting. Keep it up!!!!
Many years ago a rather zany friend of mine who had his ppl suggested he took me up for a lunchtime flight rather than sit in the van eating lunch. Great i said yes lets do it! We used a little single engine aeroplane from an aero club. i had by the time we got to the aircraft noticed a total change in this guy, he was extremely careful on his ground checks and while flying he kept monitoring everything and explained the instruments and controls. His words to me that stuck to this day were "Never muck around in these things Al, they'll kill you".
Great video again, very interesting findings by NTSB, will you do a video on todays C130 crash in the Philippines when the report comes out?
Funny you should say that. I once knew a pilot socially and he was exactly like this. Most laid-back, amiable dude socially down the pub. I ran into him once in uniform and it was like a different person. Calm, Professional, focussed. I think he saved all his Crazy for when a few hundred people were not relying on him to keep them alive in an inherently hostile environment.
Yeah I was taken up by a pilot I made wedding rings for. He completely changed like that too. I knew why and knew to keep my statements concise also as I was being allowed to fly the aircraft at 5 thousand feet. I knew to keep my statements short and concise. It was fun but limited fun given the G forces and the whole potential disaster thing....
Sailors are a lot of the same way. You absolutely must have total respect for the sea, or air, because even when you do, it can and will do its dead level best to kill you.
Reminds me of glider training for rope breaks: keep the nose down until the airspeed revovers, even if the ground is close.
i'm nowhere even near this industry but just been binging all his videos...I find the whole thing fascinating. The intricate systems and the way pilots react to different scenarios is incredible to me
Can confirm two things from my time at Pinnacle. 1: They were still training to minimize altitude loss as EQUALLY important to “breaking” the stall AFTER this accident, despite adding the hi altitude stall training. 2: The training department described the Core Lock as being the result of the restart attempts below minimum required speeds and NOT as described here. I find that interesting.
Yes it sounds like the engines actually have a fatal flaw in that they lock up when flamed out, but obviously pinnacle want to continue flying with them so they are going to tell the pilots that it only happens when you don't fly according to procedure....
@@giftofthewild6665probably any engine may be locked up under certain conditions as the mechanics of the lock up is determined by the very principle of it's design. You need metal which is softer than the engine blades to create just enough friction, just like a bullet needs to be softer than the gun barrel. So there we have it.
Deep in pilot desire, we want to reach the maximum attitude ever possible. Only works well on flight simulator though.
Just keep your best climb speed. Nothing is going to take you higher than that. If at best climb speed the airplane settles 2000 ft below the "official" ceiling, that that's the ceiling for that airplane that day. Now, noteworthy, that plane that day WAS capable of achieving FL410, had they not slowed down below best climb.
Didn't exactly work in my MS flight sim either though, is mine broken??
I don't fully understand why airplane can't maintain maximum altitude, since is rated for 41000? Why they was high angle of attack?
@@marekjakimowicz There IS a procedure to get to and maintain 41,000 from the manufacturer. But you need to enter 41k above a published high speed. If you enter 41k below the published speed (as happened here), the engines produce insufficient thrust to accelerate even in straight and level flight. Its not the AoA specifically, however it makes sense that to intercept 41k you would be more shallow in the AoA, to carry the high speed required by the manufacturer.
Personally speaking it should never be certified for 41k service ceiling. I'm unsure if this airline even produced a section in their manual for high altitude intercept because they never intended their airplane to be up there in their operations.
@@marekjakimowicz ... There is a concept called "excess thrust" which is how much thrust you have on top of what is needed to fly straight and level (no climb or descend) at your current speed. If your excess thrust is positive, you will gain either altitude or speed. If your excess thrust is negative, you will lose either altitude or speed.
As Peter (Mentour) explained, there is one airspeed that will give you the minimum drag. That speed will aslo give you maximum excess thrust (because it is the speed where you need the least thrust to overcome the drag). So it will give you the best climb rate if your excess thrust is positive (i.e. if you have more thrust than what is needed to fly straight and level at that speed). That airspeed is called "best climb speed".
The normal procedure to climb at high altitude is to set the throttle for climb power and use the pitch to control the airspeed keeping it at best climb speed.
The service ceiling is, by definition, the altitude at which the plane can sustain a climb of 100 feet per minutes at best climb airspeed. That means that if you apply climb thrust and keep best climb speed, you will eventually reach your service ceiling altitude but barely, just with a climb rate of 100 feet per minute, which is a very very shallow climb.
But this is not what the pilots did here. They set the autopilot to maintain a climb rate of 500 feet per minutes (5 times more aggressive than what you can sustain at the service ceiling). Because of that, there was a point where they started to lose airspeed (at a certain altitude, the engines just didn't have enough power to keep the airspeed and a 500 fmp climb at the same time) and, eventually, the speed went below the best climb speed which, remember, is the minimum drag speed.
After that it is a vicious circle. Speed goes down, drag goes up so speed goes down even more so drag goes up even more and so on. They finally managed to get to 41000 ft but by then they were going so slow and the drag so high that their excess thrust was negative, meaning that the available thrust was not enough to keep both the altitude and the speed. One had to give and, because the pilots didn't let the altitude drop, the speed kept deteriorating which made the drag to keep increasing and the speed to keep deteriorating and so on, until they stalled.
In other words, the plane was capable of maintaining 41000 ft, but not at such a low speed and high drag. They should have climbed more slowly and maintained best climb airspeed until getting to 41000 ft.
These videos just keep getting better and better! The amount of work and quality of editing is terrific!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it
That moment when you realize a little bit of fun has turned into a "I've really fed up". Many of us have been there and fortunately many of those moments don't end this tragically.
I don't know how you do it but every episode of this series is better than another. At this Speed in 2 months you'll be making a documentaries for Netflix !
Keep it up!
Keep it on TH-cam please! Don't subscribe to Netflix😟
I really hope that Mentour Pilot videos become mandatory in every pilot's training programs some day!
Yes!
Wtf dude
Nice idea. At least show by company to them.
@Jesus what do you mean w-t-f grow up ! This is very useful content that should be shown to. Future piloting students. We are not saying it should be mandatory for them to qualify 🙊
In many degree programs like my own we actuaally watched video documentaries . This was back before TH-cam!! I can tell you that the content on this channel is far more superior than the stuff we were shown which was fiction.
Mentour reading out things like "ain't" and "bro" was rather entertaining! Saw this story before and thought about what I've learned from his channel just a week or so ago!
yeah, I'm hip. It was like Jeff Spicoli was the first officer. This is the first time I've heard about this N2 lockup. Very interesting stuff.
Hello A King 👋
How are you feeling today I hope your day is as bright as your pretty smile today.
WOW, I love this guy's presentations and eloquent delivery. He puts the viewer right in the cockpit and ATC tower. Thank you sir for your work.
I've been in the aviation industry for over 30 years and all the lessons you speak of apply to all levels of aircraft operation and maintenance. Keep up the good work.
I am deeply sorry for the loss of their familymembers.
But this is the first accident i am watching where I (without ANY aviation knowledge) was screeming in my inner voice "NOSE DOWN, NOSE DOWN"
Very sad and tragic... Since I have lost my parents in an accident, I know that the fact that no citzens where harmed will be the silk blanket on their families souls
I was like you, but what I found interesting is that the pilots are trained not to follow their natural intuition (nose down) but to replicate only what they trained.
In normal situation what they trained was more adapted to safety of all passenger, but here it killed them. Finally they did what they should have done, and what their learned was pretty good. This is simply a tragedy : nobody's fault. Just fate.
Maybe if they had informed the ATC sooner of their dual engine failure, and by this admitting to themselves their having fun going extremely wrong, it would be less stressful and they would probably have gotten useful feedback and information from the ATC to descent and glide in time for a nearer airport...It was so sad at the end, the pilot seemed to realize his own death right there but denied himself (a decision that indicates too much awful feelings I imagine) to lower the gear to absorb some impact forces in shake of not hurting people on the ground, even though that wasn't guaranteed one way or the other. Miraculous that they dodged this event.
The whole thing reminded me of the Icarus mythological theme.
And since I wrote this much, have a compliment too: I started watching air crash investigations on your channel, and the videos are so good that I can't watch anything else with the same understanding and amazement XD
Yes, it’s an extremely sad event.
Thank you for your kind feedback,
The moment the captain lied about the dual engine failure, my sympathy for him was gone.
He was more focused on covering his ass than avoiding a possible crash into a populated area.
Sorry that they had to die, but glad that these guys aren't piloting planes anymore.
@@Goreuncle
Absolutely. The fact that he lied to the tower showed massive egotism. He simply couldn't admit that he'd messed up so badly.