Parker Hale M85: Traditional Sniper in a Modern World
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
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The 1985 competition to pick a new sniper rifle for the British military came down to a closely fought contest between the Accuracy International PM and the Parker Hale M85. The M85 was a fantastically accurate rifle, every bit the equal of the AI submission and to this day there are still people who were involved in the trials who insist that the M85 should have been selected. Ultimately, the decision came down to the logistical issues surrounding the rifle, where AI's chassis system was superior to Parker-Hale's traditional construction. Despite being defeated, Parker Hale sold some 800 M85 rifles - nearly as many as the military contract would have procured (and in fact, a few M85s were purchased by several military units).
If you are interested in learning more, I highly recommend checking out Steve Houghton's newly released book, "The British Sniper: A Century of Evolution". It can be found at:
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Parker Hill: "we got 800 rifles ready to be delivered right away"
Accuracy International: "We don't even have a proper production line setup"
*Accuracy International still manages to win*
MoD: "Well the AI rifle is just that little bit better, the bolt doesn't wiggle, the trigger is a little nicer, the logistics are better and they made it in green! Plus they're literally called Accuracy International who else would we want to buy a sniper rifle from?"
Didn't you know that's how the British government does procurement. Like with the l85 the 95 boots and best of all the jackal fighting vehicle I think.
But what a product they delivered and still are
Parker **Hale** not Hill
@@baikal627 Yep. I sold my civvy version of the L96 a couple of years back - kept the S&B 5-25x56 PMII scope though & it now sits on a Schultz & Larsen Victory in 22-250 for foxing.
It really put into perspective how long ago that scope was made when I saw the "West Germany" mark on it
Indeed.
Also, a 6x42 scope, for upto possibly a 1000 yards.
@@afroliciouspresents3603
Up to a thousand yards?
In 1874 Billy Dixon hit a 1500 yard kill with a .50-90 Sharps.
This Parker Hale is capable of WAY more than a thousand.
This is somebodies Shed isn't it?
Where's the cup of tea at?
Where's the biscuits!?
No sausage and bacon sarnie??
Specifically, Steve Houghtons
A british in his shed is the most dangerous thing in the World.
Two dislikes? My guess is Parker and Hale, disgruntled over losing the military contract to a bunch of guys in a shed.
They built a high quality Traditional Rifle. Very nice, but development in the future, no. The AI system is infinitly and easily variable.
I think, as the company was founded in 1910, that mister Parker and mister Hale would be somewhat dead by now!
"Hahahaha, we're in SOOOO much trouble!"
@@spudgunn8695 No shit, I never would've saw that coming!
That engraved number on the bolt handle is quite comical
You ever used one of those POS?! They did the best they could... Just goes to show a poor tool in the hands of a professional still does a lackluster job. I had to do tool inventory before and while I think I got better they still all looked like a 5 year old pulled it off. I'm guessing there was something stupid from on high after the fact that dictated bolts MUST be serialized and perhaps it was thumbing at authority.
@@shizzle5150 It may simply be for storage - I don't know where this film was shot, but in parts of the UK, the rifles must be securely stored separately from the securely stored bolts. Whacking the serial number on there just makes reuniting a rifle with its bolt that much easier.
Its probably for legal reasons so can be registered. Plus its hand made.
@@shizzle5150 I've most definitely used an etcher, if you care anything about your finished product you can make beautiful markings. I've even used it on my rifle stock to personalize it with my name, branch of service, and MOS. Came out like a factory mechanical stamping and it looks very professional.
@@VCYT registered? What kind of animal would require you to register a simple bolt action rifle?
mysterious green background of British Sniper Rifles
@@Rltvader1 So British!
No that's the left over green paint they used to make their desert uniforms into camo after defeating Romel.
green is no good for desert, even red is better.
@@sjoormen1 no, that is self explanatory, but if you look into ww2 history you will come across troops that fought in the desert moved on to fight in occupied Europe( why am I doing this), when the troops hit Italy they wer very under equipped. And when you are wearing desert camp in occupied Europe you stood out like a sore dink, so the troops took green paint and modified their uniforms.
@@sjoormen1 some
Those mcmillan a1 stocks are always nice
The Paker Hale is a good traditional rifle. However in the end , it relied on a stock from another supplier, hence what if you wanted a custom, and it had no where else to go. The AI system is almost infinitley variable , bits can be just bolted on.
Thank you for sharing this Ian. My dad was a police firearms officer in the '80s and '90s, and had PH's wooden-stocked M87 in .243 as his issue marksman's rifle.
That scrabbly electro-pencil engraving of the number on the bolt handle made me giggle a bit.
As the handpainted stock did. Ok, after painting 800 gunstocks by hand everyone would get a bit bored and sloppy. xD
But always nice to see how "rooted" the Brits are.
Der Halbvolle Halbgeleerte The stock is made by McMillan in Arizona. The color is in the gel coat. It’s known as the Woodland Camo pattern. The same pattern was used on later production Marine Corps M40A1 sniper rifles. Except the Marine Corps used a different model which was known as a general purpose hunting stock. Early stocks supplied to the Marine Corps used a smear pattern.
It was normal for Marine Corps sniper rifles to have the last 4 digits of the serial number stamped or engraved on the bolt. They don’t want snipers getting their bolts switched since they are precision weapons.
Wow, Ian. Really enjoying this British sniper rifle series. Thank you for the informative take on this historic piece.
Is there a chance for you to do a review on the L115 A3 in the near future? As I really been enjoying the videos on the rifles and in general as always.
Yes, it's coming.
Can’t wait for it.
Also an L118A2. :)
Forgotten Weapons nice
Yes, nice! Looking forward!
The bipod was a Parker Hale offering that was indeed a scaled down version of a BREN item. It is still in production and was actually supplied, in slightly modified form for use on the L96. An aluminium model was available once. Current production is sold under the Parker Hale brand but is not the original company. Versapod makes a copy of these in the Far East I think. Note that the foresight unit is that from the L7A2 GPMG/ FN MAG, or is based on it, same as the L96!
Looks an awful lot like the 7.62 rifles we used to use at school when we were at Bisley. I definitely know that bolt at least from past experience.
It’s the same rifle!
Nothing wrong with an M14 mag, but curious why they wouldn’t go with an cut down SLR magazine.
Louis Sanderson maybe they were thinking ahead about export sales?
PH were using their existing Mauser action - essentially the same as they used in the 1200TX series of target rifles. These actions were originally designed to use a thin internal box magazine, and so have a limited size aperture in the bottom of the receiver. Typically, this can just about be converted for thin-walled and tapered magazines, such as the M14. The SLR magazine is parallel-sided with thick rolled over feed lips, and requires the magazine well to be square cut front and back - making it difficult to use in conversions. The same issue arises when people try to convert 7.62mm Enfields (P14, No1, No4) to use 20-rnd magazines - SLR mags cannot be made to fit without substantial cutting and welding of the magazine aperture of the receiver.
Less work to cut down a m14 mag than an slr mag due to the design
Turbogerbil I wasn’t expecting such a detailed answer; thanks! 👍
Some FAL/SLR mags have issues with longer projectiles too. 175gr SMKs might not always have worked out of them. No such problems with the M14 mag.
Good Review with one correction. There are actually three locking lugs on the Bolt. Two up front and one in the rear, as is typical of 98 Mauser style actions.
Too bad that Parker Hale did not survive, as they made some really nice Rifles in their time!
These were also offered for sale in the 1991 Navy Arms catalog. Dealer price was $1495 w/o scope.
But where do you hold it? I only see a scope and barrel?
LOL
I used to shoot this rifle in national school target rifle competitions in the UK, it was a very accurate rifle but it had a different stock and target rifle iron sights, action etc was the same though. Never knew it was nearly the adopted as the British army sniper rifle. Just thought that would be an interesting bit of info that British schools use an adopted version of this rifle for their target rifle competitions but interesting video and background information as always Ian.
Haha, I was thinking it looked like the rifles we used to use at Bisley. My shooting coach would lament the quality of them, complaining about the bedding of the barrels.
Looks very similar to the L81s we used to shoot in the ATC actually, although they used an aperture sight. I remember very well the wobbly bolt that Ian indicated. I was never a fan of the Mauser action they used.
TheFlamingTrain hahaha did you ever take off the barrels and find all the moisture between the barrel and the bedding? that couldn't be good for accuracy 🤔
Was the bolt as loose as displayed here?
shot forshot it was when I shot it.
Those irons are actually quite neat
Yeah. I dont get how you would see your target through that aperture though lol
R6Mute Main what do you mean? Looks very close to the same dimensions as the one I have on my SBR AR-15
The M85's is farther forward though. Similar problem as the M1903.
Parker-Hale made their name with precision sights for precision rifles. No real surprise their irons were good. My first gun was a Weirauch HW77 air rifle..with Parker-Hale target sights on it!
Kinda pointless, since on a sniper rifle the iron sights will likely never be used.
Ian, there is a very rare parker-hale gun you could feature sometime, if you can find it.
Its called the PDW / 'personal defense weapon' , a semi-auto pistol with fold-back bar under the handle. It looks like sci-fi gun.
The company still exists, but in a lowkey way.
My copy of Steve’s book comes today in the mail. Pretty excited to dig into it tonight.
😊
Got about 50 pages in last night. Really enjoying it.
Thankyou, it’s really good to get positive feedback for all his hard work. 👍🏻
Oof, that wiggling bolt... Just seems like a really unfortunate design decision. I can't imagine it inspired confidence in anyone.
Mauser Action best in the world, plenty of play if your in bad conditions with loads of tolerance.
The Mauser action would inspire confidence. Think of it: an action so strong and legendary that it is still widely copied.
A FW video is the Perfect way to spend my lunch break, cheers Ian 👍
Loving the shout out to the Falkland Islands Defence Force, at 7:48! That’s where I used this rifle and it was fantastic.
Beautiful barrel and bolt, sniper rifles in these modern bolt action designs look amazing
Two Para, they hate it when you imply they're second at anything
I used to have a M85 Parker Hale. It was also tried out in Sweden. I bought one of the test rifles.
Every bit as good any any other standard caliber "sniper" rifle. I wish they were commercially available today.
I dont find open bolt wobble a problem if it get a little dirty it help not get gunked up. HOWEVR it has to have no wobble when close the bolt.
The sounds it make are so satisfying
I have a book of 20th century small arms and it’s so cool to see some of them in your vids
Thank you , Ian .
Not sure if you noticed, but the front sights on both the M85 and the L96 are the same, they are both based off the FN MAG58 front sights with minor changes.
One of my favorite rifles.
PH and AI are two excellent examples of British engineering however if someone simply gave me a list of shooting test results, company information and a blueprint of each design I'd go with the AI. It's a better design ultimately for the reason Ian described, that chassis construction. Not only does that help with repairs and consistent accuracy over time, it allows for progressive upgrades very easily. Look at the L85 platform, we're now adopting the A3, lighter, stronger and according to my sister's combat engineer partner, a much more controllable weapon. Us Brits like to tinker and AI gives more leeway to do that. The PH is still a great rifle just not quite great enough. Another issue is that stock. It makes more sense to have a purely indigenous design (which is ironic given we use Austrian Glocks, Swiss Sigs and the Germans supply subs and basically the rifles).
Pretty sweet looking trigger guard and trigger. Wish I could put that rifle in a modern chassis. Using M14 mags seems practical too. AI mags are nice but compared to the price I could have a ton of M14 mags.
If your rifle will reliably feed off the magpul aics mags they're reasonably priced. I agree that the AI mags at $100+ are quite rediculously priced.
I've had the pleasure to shoot both rifles and they are both equally fantastic. I own an M86 which is the police version of the M85. It's just a real shame to lose an icon firm as Parker Hale
Wasn't the M87 the civilain version?
Also utilized by the Australian Army prior to the 90s.
British rifles, German Scopes a match made in heaven.
Definitely. Well, as long as the rifles are hand built by two blokes in a shed and the scopes crafted with proper German precision. We never really did get the hang of that whole production line thing over here, things just seemed to always need to be hand finished to work even halfway properly :P
We need more sheds!!!
I thought the canadian forces used this rifle but it appears that was the m82 not the m85
I live right NEXT door to PARKER HALE RIFLES MANUFACTURER , USED TO FIND SO MANY PARTS IN THE SKIP OUTSIDE IN THE YARD, BARRELS, PARTS, COULD FIND A WHOLE RIFLE IF YOU LOOKED AROUND. I WOULD SAY A VERY HIGH QUALITY PARTS, GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION CLOSED DOWN SO MANY GOOD COMPANIES.
just came back from a cycle ride, this is a nice vid to come back to
One thing that stood out to me in this video is that windage adjustment is on the front the back up iron sight vs the rear sight. Was that just to make it fit under the scope better, or did they feel that was a better place to have the adjustment for accuracy?
I had a Parker-Hale..Hussar. 7mm Mag. Had a bad chamber, full house loads, the cases stuck. I had a gunsmith polish it, but still had issues. Shot very well tho..
Any engineering project needs to be controlled with a flexible numbering scheme. It is common for new numbering schemes to include additional "maybe we will need this" fields in them, as addingvthem later can be extremely difficultm
Ian you the Man love the videos. Great info!!!
sweet video keep up the great work
Thanks mate.
Gun Jesus graces us with more forgotten knowledge.Praise be to he.
if i was a sniper, id use that. but i cant snipe worth a damn. id remove the scope and use the iron sights. great video ian. keep it up.
Having a rubbish day at work and this video cheered me up when I got the notification.
Thanks as always to forgotten weapons for and informative and entertaining video
The rattle when you open the bolt is just part of the quality made in Britain
There is actually 4 Police Forces in Wales. North Wales Police, Dyfed-Powys Police, Gwent Police and South Wales Police. I wouldn't trust any of them with guns personally lol.
Very Cool rifle Ian an thanks for showing it. I would love to have one.
so this is part of a private collection?
I used to own this exact rifle, brilliant example.
I understand PH was 'out of favour' with the MoD at the time and consequently went into the competition at a distinct disadvantage. From the point of view of reliability, I suspect the M85 would actually be superior to the L96.
Is there a chance for you to do a review on the Parker Hale PDW / IDW? This gun is really interesting and I'm enjoying your videos :D
And its still in use here in Canada
Looks like a hunting rifle, compared to the utalitarian, some what ugly, design of the L96. But guns dont need to look pretty to be good.
I was just thinking that this rifle is strikingly beautiful.
It really just looks like a McMillan stocked precision rifle. Along with HS precision they're basically everywhere in the high end bolt gun market and they all kinda look the same, even 30 years later.
In the Southern US, there are many, many, many large, somethings a half a mile across where soybeans are raised. Whitetail deer love soybeans. Whitetail deer are hunted in these beanfield rifles from fixed stands. For nearly 30 years, maybe more specialized rifles have been designed for hunting in these conditions, called beanfield rifles.
This rifle, coincidentally very much like this rifle.
L96 is ugly? why? it gives you the full british "SUPER CONDENSED TEA BAG LAUNCHER" bais vibes, doesn't it? well whatever, I don't hate both the guns anyway.
It is a hunting rifle. Its for hunting humans
May be because the Mc Millan body but... i think that rifle it's a beauty; look really good to me.
Excellent Video as always, Ian, but a small point if I may, I think it should be 2 (Two) Para not 2nd (Second) Para.
He drives on the left also.
Oh a Novritsch SSG24 :D
My 1983 “Parker Hale”over & under shotgun was a badged Japanese Winchester.
I also had a .308 Parker Hale stalking rifle &understood the Mauser action was Spanish-made?
Santa Barbara?
Not quite accurate. Australia went with the Parker Hale wooden hardware version. I had the pleasure to test fire one in about 1978. They were beautifully balanced and superior to the old 303 which they replaced. My impression at the time was that this was a superior weapon, much like a hunters rifle. You got 5 shots with the mag I was provided with (4 Spares). You only ever needed one round! I feel they were probably superior to the AI. The fact that specialist units also went for PH, kind of adds some weight to my theory. It is quite possible that NZ may have also used the PH during the early 80s. I think Houghton's book probably is not concerned with non Brit use and therefore overlooks where else they were used. A beautiful rifle! My personal weapon of choice over everything else.
What makes a traditional sniper rifle more than just an infantry rifle if it's all just a bolt and barrel imbeded in a stock?
Is it just a scope ontop, or quality of production?
I believe previously (WW1&2) sniper rifles were selected from the most accurate battle rifles. Same production line but if one came out that shot 2 MOA instead of 4 or 6 MOA it would be fitted with a scope and issued to the snipers. For the US, I believe Vietnam during the 1960s was when the sniper rifle became a different rifle altogether. Semiautomatic rifles were the standard issue but snipers used Winchester Model 70s and later Remington 700s outfitted with scopes that I think were commercially sourced. Many of these rifles were chambered in .30-06 rather than the 7.62x51 of the M-14 or 5.56x45 of the M-16. The bolt rifles offered superior precision and the cartridges longer range.
This trend has held up to today with sniper rifles being bolt actions, chambered in a larger cartridge that offers superior ballistics instead of the capacity of smaller rounds. I believe the next generation of US sniper rifle is based on an AR-10, the precursor to the AR-15 that was larger and chambered in 7.62x51 so the sniper rifle is different from the standard infantry rifle but will be semi automatic.
There may be some inaccuracies and oversights in my description but I believe it is generally correct.
Maybe Parker Hale used a M14 mag, hoping that would swing the decision to buy with countries that had M14s in stores.
6:01 Reverse number 2 appears. Illuminati confirmed.
So SAS bought some of these?
were they the primary SAS bolt action or did they mainly use the L96A1 (or even other?)
2:24 Not goo when the bolt handle almost knocks the scope.
Will you be doing a video on the L81? It would be interesting to see any differences with the M85 and 82 and your take on its use as a training rifle.
Now as I understand it, the M85 outshot the L96 cold bore for accuracy..
They shot the same, basically.
Can someone explain to me why the BDC markings on the turret get progressively farther apart except between 500 and 600 meters when they are closer for some reason? At first I thought this was possibly from some strange long-range zero but then everything prior to that would have to be dialed down, not up as it currently is.
I find the camo to be absolutely horrible, but the gun looks really nice otherwise
Same camo as the m40a1.
So is your profile picture degenerate
Personally I like the camo but I'm not a huge fan of composite stocks in general
And it was owned by a Welsh police department... * proceeds to screech about the militarization of police *
Yea, looks a bit like the camo I painted on a model tank when I was six or seven...
That rifle is a strange mix of nice design and surprisingly sloppy detail work. The hand engraved serial number on the bolt handle, the ugly camo paint, and the slop in the bolt fitting (even though I know it doesn't really impact precision or reliability) makes it look a bit cheap.
Somewhat beyond it's time.
It's a beauty.
Very nice
I'm getting a rem700 vibe from that action
Beautiful
I knew this as the L81A1 cadet rifle.
The Balvenie tin in the background full of gizzits and cleaning gear is worth my monthly Patreon fee all by itself... I tend to keep all my whisky bottle tubes for just the same reasons. Just lacking an M85 that's all.
If you want real accuracy, you should check out F class (aka the arms race) competition guns. Bolt actions on an AR platform.
used it in Albanian Police SF, simply fantastic
Now this is cool.
Stock vs chassis....a never ending story.
I would get nothing done in an English garden shed... Well. I'd play with my gun.
Australia used the earlier M82 from the late 70s until the mid 90s when they were replaced with SR98
imagifyer I've ended up with an M85 that was (hearsay) imported into Australia for trials. I've found mine to be a bit finicky with ammo. I was despairing of getting any accuracy until a mate gave me a box of M118 and the groups shrunk.
@Superdude70 sorry to get back so late, but yes please. I've been reloading for my Steyr to good effect. I don't really take the m85 out as I feel it's almost a collector's piece.
@Superdude70 cheers mate, I'll give it a go.
we will call it "Almost"
I really like look of this rifle. It's beautiful.
I have shot both rifles and the action on the Parker hale is so much nicer but I'm sure it cost double that of AI, maybe if it had an in-house chassis system like the AI it would have won but even then cost is a big factor in trails.
If 2 rifles are just as accurate and do all the same things but one is a little fancy and smoother but double the pice it will probably loose.
At least AI put military and civilian rifles but the UK back on the map for manufacturing.
It could possibly be the only military rifle still made in the UK.
Any chance of putting your hands on Parker Hale PDW?
That thing has a interesting action but I can’t find much information online.
How did the PH compare price wise to the Accuracy International rifle ?
You cant put a price on quality, but try telling that to my wife who went apeshit when I bought my at308
Did you try tossing her chocolates ?
If thabt doesn't work, try clubbing her with the box 😁
@@tombogan03884 had to take her to Amsterdam for a week.
If that doesn't mellow her out theres nothing left but one of those Marlin Perkins darts. 😁
@@cardiffpicker1 I hope it only cost you a nice meal to placate your good lady
i'm surprised it wasn't picked on price alone. maybe ai was cheaper back then but sure got expensive when they became the in thing.
The AI was 3 x more that the M85 so it wasn't a cost driven choice...
a Parker-Hale gun that isnt the IDW
rip
danya
IDW da nya!!!
AIIIIIII DIIIIIIIII DABAYUUUU DANYA!
AYYYYDDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDABURUUUUUUUUUUU DAAAAAAAAAAAA NYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
IDW DE WONDER NYAAA
Can you do a video on the parker hale pdw? I want it to be on of my new favourite weapons.
I love the look of McMillan stocks so I like the m85 more.
Ian hove you ever seen the joseph enouy’s 8-cylinder 48 shot percussion revolver? I looks to front heavy to be used accurately
Could you do a video on the Parker Hale M82 sniper?
I have shot an M85 and some modern Accuracy Internationals (AT and AE). The Parker Hale shot just as accurately despite being three decades older but it doesn't have the brilliantly innovative chassis system of the AI so I can see why it lost the trial.
Yup. It isn't just about accuracy. The rifle needs to be able to take serious punishment. The AI/AW rifle is essentially a mechano set. If anything on it breaks, the fix is easy.