Don't feel too sorry for Honda, they sold 18 million bikes in the last year so they're not exactly struggling. All manufacturers learn from others, the Japanese applied good engineering and quality and made products that people want. The Chinese are doing the same but with low manufacturing costs. A lot of components from all brands are sourced from countries with a lower cost base. EU emissions bought about the demise of many performance bikes such as the R1. Happy birthday Dave.
Spot on analysis DJ, the Japanese did lead in the 70s 80s and 90s in terms of choice, outright performance and reliability that no one and i mean no one could match at any price, you're right to say they've been lacking in innovation recently but its took a bloody long time for everyone else to catch up....
First and foremost, Happy Birthday my good Sir! Thoroughly enjoyed your perspective of this subject, and having lived through the '70's and '80's motorcycle market, in which I owned many, I completely concur. Cheers and a toast, specifically for you! -Steve-
Good vid but you must remember they have got to abide by the euro laws and EPA in US not enough bikes to make a difference but they sill have to make changes to bikes they want to release
Happy Birthday! 64! Do you still love us? The Japanese are late to the game with scramblers? Honda's CL (scrambler) series, notably the CL72 and the CL77 Scrambler 305 were being produced in 1962. Given that you were only 4 years old at the time, your lapse in memory is excusable.
LOL You didn't listen did you 🤣 ... I specifically said the " new bread" of Scrambler bikes that have been so popular in recent years ! ( quoting Triumph and Ducati as examples ) That is the market segment where Honda and the other Japanese makers are so late or missing from the party. ... I'm very aware of the CL's from the past but they can't sell those now can they ?😊... Many thanks for commenting and birthday wishes ..much appreciated👍
Happy birthday David, I agree completely about what you mentioned about the boom years of Japanese Motorcycles. I am 3 years older than you and I to remember the great years of the Japanese advancement in technology, models etc. Take for example the models of the big 4 from 1969 to 1979. I collect Honda only motorcycle sales brochures of pre-1986, in doing so it shows me how many different models there were. I am considering buying another motorcycle, the practicality and comfort of the CL500 means it could be the right choice for me.
Does euro 5 not have something to do with the bikes of today? Think they could make R1 fireblaed and GSX-R but they have been legislated against. Keeping my Gsxr750 ✌
Most of the world rides much lighter bikes for daily transport. Not sure if the larger, more expensive segment we get in the western world is representative of Japanese brand performance globally. Any thoughts on that?
l think innovation has it's limits, what else do you do with an engine and two wheels. The innovation of the last twenty years has come in the form of controls like antilock brakes traction control rider modes and probably tyre development. All we get now are different plastics the odd tweak to fuel consumption and bhp it's like everything else it all goes in circles that why at the moment it's retro bikes that are in vogue. A thought provoking subject there David 👍
I agree with your first sentence. It's the same with music. There are only so many tunes that you can write, and let's face it, the number of really good songs these days is a fraction of the heydays of the 60's 70's & 80's. So bikes, like songs, just get reprocessed.
i think saying 'where are the great bikes of today' is a little unfair, as there's all the choice anyone wants or needs across the whole spectrum, from more manufacturers than u can shake a stick at, and often at affordable prices, with innovation still happening, (take honda's eclutch as a small example) or the development (wash my mouth out) of electric bikes, which is probably where the next wave of rapid development will come from, but you can only take things so far before there's no market for them, which runs across most consumer techical goods. Some Interesting points and facts though, so thanks for that, even if i do feel you're a little tinted by nostalgia 😀GL
Thanks Bob . there are indeed many great bikes today ,my point is less of them are from the big4 than there used to be in the Japanese heyday in my opinion . ...Don't get me started on electric !! 😂
i don't believe the Japanese motorcycle industry ever led. Japan followed, and just tinkered. When did the Japanese ever take a bold decision? Triumph did. When everyone else made an in line 4 cylinder, Triumph went and did 3 cylinders with an odd T plane crank which gave a distinctive note. Prices of Japanese motorcycles were generally cheaper than European bikes. When Blades and R1s got popular, prices increased and matched some of the then Italian exotica. The slide into the abyss has been some time. The 1960s British motorcycle industry got complacent, Japan fell into the same trap. Japanese bikes no longer have a cutting edge, they are safe imitations of field leaders and fail to inspire. KTM went angular and aggressive, japan followed suit but lacked the commitment to be bold and take a chance. good bikes, yes, great umm? maybe not.
@@garymartin557Strange that, I’m sure my Triumph TT600 was an in-line four. I think you’re making it up to fit your argument. There always have been three cylinder Japanese bikes as there are today.
@@davidmatthews3093 tt600 was pretty much discontinued. Triumph made a bold decision back then IMHO. Going against the grain of in line 4s. since the tt 600 can't think of a 4 cylinder trumpet. of course there are the retro twins and now a single in the 400. my point is not that the Japanese never made triples, but UJM was inline 4. Yamaha did produce a couple of triples in the 80s but were not their mainstay. they produce some now, but i am of the opinion that they now produce them due to the success that triumph had.i don't have an argument, i have an opinion just as everyone else does.
The reason the Japanese were so successful , they were prepared to invest time & money & improve on ideas we wouldn’t . They also built oil tight reliable motorcycles that started first time every time, at reasonable prices . The Indians & Chinese will be the next big guns ,followed by any nation that can manage to out produce & undercut them on price. All the big established motorcycle firms are already sourcing components ,engines & even in some cases complete motorcycles from China or far east . A scrambler styled bike with an engine capacity over 500 cc is ridiculous & totally over the top & mainly designed to attract posh boy latte cafe hipster set . The reason I reckon classic styled motorcycles are becoming popular, is because too many IT nerds & gamer boys have been allowed to run amok when designing modern motorcycles. This has resulted in many modern motorcycles looking like grotesque ugly mechanical insects overloaded & laden with unnecessary expensive tech & electronics . The classic old school styled bikes remind & enable the more mature riders to recapture, the days when motorcycles actually resembled motorcycles instead of a transformer toy
I think that the sports bike era is over largely due to modern road conditions and speed limits. I do agree that the Japanese manufacturers are no longer trend setters.
My dad was telling me he bought a yamaha FS1e in the 70s but had to wait almost 3 month's for delivery because they couldn't supply quick enough, but still with yamaha, they make the mt09 which is a heck of a bike and I believe end of this year the R9 should be on sale to replace the r6 and r1 but most of the iconic Japanese iconic bikes 600s and 1000s are discontinued due to EU emmition rules, so you could say the West is killing the motorcycle industry.
i agree the nanny states and H&S have stunted a lot of things, but there's many more people on the roads, and smaller cc bikes often perform better than big bikes from years ago. while i think the 'man made climate change thing' is all lies and garbage, i do think less emissions can only be a good thing, and how fast do people really need to go anyway. GL
Yep I think the Japanese motorcycle market has lost the plot. Their bikes are very well made but they tend to look rather naff now for the most part. I have always bought Japanese motorcycles but I'm considering alternatives now.
I think there are a few trends being set by the Japanese manufacturers. Mostly Yamaha though. Like how they started off the platform bike trend with the cp2 cp3 and cp4 bikes. The cp2 kicked off the recent parallel twin craze, which every manufacturer seems to be following. Also think of bikes like the T7, which led to Aprilia following suit with the Tuareg 660.
Personally I've never really associated Japanese bikes with innovation, to me they've always represented quality and their bikes (small to large) were brilliantly made however the quality started to reduce from the late 90s onwards. Today they're still building great bikes but I wouldn't expect a modern Japanese motorcycle to be any better built or more reliable than a modern Italian or British bike. Happy belated birthday by the way.
Thanks Carl .. many would agree with the decline of quality since the 90's ...personally I think they are still the best but the quality of all bikes is much improved and a bad bike is rare thing these days.
mmm.. think emissions has a big part across the board, honda range is huge and have there own finance company, competative pricing with main dealers worldwide. Own cbr650r and rebel 500 which is not to dissimiliar to your scrambler, Penblwydd Hapus
I currently have a Honda and Suzuki motorcycles and a Honda car, all built in Japan. So i still favour Japanese vehicles over others from other parts of the world. Thats because i have trust and faith in their reliability and bulid quality. But its true that Japanese vehicles aren't as innovative or maybe as cool as other marques now, but at my age now i'm not interested in cool or impressing others. I'm the same age as you and agree we had the best of it.
To be honest the first rero I can recall was the Kawasaki Zephyr going back to the 1990s. And I certainly wouldn't write them off as they are superb engineers with a great work ethic 🙄
Hi David - cannot argue with 'the history lesson' but feel your Honda research needs updating! I started with the class leading 4 stroke 125 twin in 67 and even though other makes entered/left my stable, the feeling of respect for the company has never left, so much so, have had the DCT gearbox, nothing comes near it for excellence and the latest bike, the ADV 350, is a wolf in sheeps clothing! Yes, seriously, actually 330cc but touches 90, sips at 83 mpg, suspension similar to a Citroen, a bike others are now frantically cloning! Its big brothers, the X-ADV and Forza 750, again are unique and even though UK sales are poor Europe is gobbling them up. Now the new E-Clutch as well? I believe you chose the 500 Scrambler because you could not find a better compromise, I am aware of our Eastern cousins difficulties, a similar demographic to the poor old UK but we have never produced anything good in bulk for 55 years!
Interesting view ... I have great respect for Honda too ( Car Bike and Mower in my ownership 😁) The E-clutch and other bikes are a good point ,It's certainly not an open and shut case but I still think they are not as much at the forefront as they they used to be ... Appreciate the comment👍
Emissions are killing everything. CF Moto sold millions of bikes last year and will be the next bid thing I think. RE prices creeping up yet still powerless. Also the UK is a tiny mkt. they build bikes for a worldwide audience. The UK has been obsessed with Willie waving power and cc’s
Happy b-day David! Hope it's a great one I feel like it's not just Japan who's lost their mojo in terms of motorcycles, but I gotta agree that they're trending a lot less these days. Feels like nobody wants to take bold chances these days
I agree entirely Dave, the Japanese have continued to make good bikes but not great bikes. I guess the last great bike from Japan was, indeed, the Hyabusa. The challenge they face today is that you can chose any genre and there will be some good Japanese bikes but I can't think of a single genre where the most desired bike in the class is a Japanese bike.
Happy birthday dave nice meeting you down the cafe there is some food for thought on todays video .I do agree that royal enfield have set a few trends of late and i think india and china are making life difficult for the big four right now regarding motorcycle production and IT tech
Don't feel too sorry for Honda, they sold 18 million bikes in the last year so they're not exactly struggling. All manufacturers learn from others, the Japanese applied good engineering and quality and made products that people want. The Chinese are doing the same but with low manufacturing costs. A lot of components from all brands are sourced from countries with a lower cost base. EU emissions bought about the demise of many performance bikes such as the R1. Happy birthday Dave.
Thanks Simon ..all very true👍
Happy birthday David, hope it was a great one!
Thank you for the history lesson, was great
Thanks 👍
Spot on analysis DJ, the Japanese did lead in the 70s 80s and 90s in terms of choice, outright performance and reliability that no one and i mean no one could match at any price, you're right to say they've been lacking in innovation recently but its took a bloody long time for everyone else to catch up....
Thanks Henry ... 👍
Happy birthday ole chap!
Thanks James😊
First and foremost, Happy Birthday my good Sir! Thoroughly enjoyed your perspective of this subject, and having lived through the '70's and '80's motorcycle market, in which I owned many, I completely concur. Cheers and a toast, specifically for you! -Steve-
Thanks Steve much appreciated 👍
Blaming it all..on the nights on Broadway ?
LOL Brilliant !... played that a few times .
Good vid but you must remember they have got to abide by the euro laws and EPA in US not enough bikes to make a difference but they sill have to make changes to bikes they want to release
Happy Birthday! 64! Do you still love us? The Japanese are late to the game with scramblers? Honda's CL (scrambler) series, notably the CL72 and the CL77 Scrambler 305 were being produced in 1962. Given that you were only 4 years old at the time, your lapse in memory is excusable.
LOL You didn't listen did you 🤣 ... I specifically said the " new bread" of Scrambler bikes that have been so popular in recent years ! ( quoting Triumph and Ducati as examples ) That is the market segment where Honda and the other Japanese makers are so late or missing from the party. ... I'm very aware of the CL's from the past but they can't sell those now can they ?😊... Many thanks for commenting and birthday wishes ..much appreciated👍
I have a Honda gb400 1987 - way before triumph and 10 years after the sr500?
Happy birthday David, I agree completely about what you mentioned about the boom years of Japanese Motorcycles. I am 3 years older than you and I to remember the great years of the Japanese advancement in technology, models etc. Take for example the models of the big 4 from 1969 to 1979. I collect Honda only motorcycle sales brochures of pre-1986, in doing so it shows me how many different models there were. I am considering buying another motorcycle, the practicality and comfort of the CL500 means it could be the right choice for me.
Many thanks , I can thoroughly recommend the CL500 , if it suits your requirements you will not be disappointed I'm sure👍
Does euro 5 not have something to do with the bikes of today? Think they could make R1 fireblaed and GSX-R but they have been legislated against.
Keeping my Gsxr750 ✌
It's a factor yes , but Ducati still sell Sports bikes and clearly the Big4 have lost interest ...Moto GP says it all ..... Thanks for watching.
Keeping my ZZR1441
Honda innovate still. DCT on adv and e-clutch show this.
Component tech yes ... but where are the era defining bikes ?
Big bikes have had their day i think, seems the 400/500 class is where its at and makes sense in todays world.
Yes , I think that tendency is inevitable Mike.
Most of the world rides much lighter bikes for daily transport. Not sure if the larger, more expensive segment we get in the western world is representative of Japanese brand performance globally. Any thoughts on that?
Happy birthday David. Just look at Moto GP, the Japanese are now at the back of the field; says it all.
A very good point Marty which I nearly included in the video ... Many thanks👍
お誕生日おめでとう!! (O-tanjōbi omedetō - Happy Birthday)
Thanks so much James 👍
l think innovation has it's limits, what else do you do with an engine and two wheels. The innovation of the last twenty years has come in the form of controls like antilock brakes traction control rider modes and probably tyre development. All we get now are different plastics the odd tweak to fuel consumption and bhp it's like everything else it all goes in circles that why at the moment it's retro bikes that are in vogue. A thought provoking subject there David 👍
Thanks Mark ...appreciate your thoughts 👍
I agree with your first sentence. It's the same with music. There are only so many tunes that you can write, and let's face it, the number of really good songs these days is a fraction of the heydays of the 60's 70's & 80's.
So bikes, like songs, just get reprocessed.
My guess was 410%! Happy belated birthday to you🍰. There's the Kawasaki W800 but no longer sold here to take into account.
Thanks Simon .. W800 is a good example but I would say it was in response to the Bonny ... following and not leading .
@@WyreForestBiker A history lesson for you! The W650 was released in 1999, two years prior to the first of the Triumph retros.
Happy birthday.🎉
i think saying 'where are the great bikes of today' is a little unfair, as there's all the choice anyone wants or needs across the whole spectrum, from more manufacturers than u can shake a stick at, and often at affordable prices, with innovation still happening, (take honda's eclutch as a small example) or the development (wash my mouth out) of electric bikes, which is probably where the next wave of rapid development will come from, but you can only take things so far before there's no market for them, which runs across most consumer techical goods. Some Interesting points and facts though, so thanks for that, even if i do feel you're a little tinted by nostalgia 😀GL
Thanks Bob . there are indeed many great bikes today ,my point is less of them are from the big4 than there used to be in the Japanese heyday in my opinion . ...Don't get me started on electric !! 😂
Happy Birthday
Thanks Mike👍
Sorry you have got this wrong!
i don't believe the Japanese motorcycle industry ever led. Japan followed, and just tinkered. When did the Japanese ever take a bold decision? Triumph did. When everyone else made an in line 4 cylinder, Triumph went and did 3 cylinders with an odd T plane crank which gave a distinctive note. Prices of Japanese motorcycles were generally cheaper than European bikes. When Blades and R1s got popular, prices increased and matched some of the then Italian exotica. The slide into the abyss has been some time. The 1960s British motorcycle industry got complacent, Japan fell into the same trap. Japanese bikes no longer have a cutting edge, they are safe imitations of field leaders and fail to inspire. KTM went angular and aggressive, japan followed suit but lacked the commitment to be bold and take a chance. good bikes, yes, great umm? maybe not.
Very interesting take Gary Thanks.👍
Yamaha did the 3 cylinder XS750 & XS850 back in the day.
@@wozza59 but triumph said, 3 cylinder is what we do. a bold step in the world of inline 4s.
@@garymartin557Strange that, I’m sure my Triumph TT600 was an in-line four. I think you’re making it up to fit your argument. There always have been three cylinder Japanese bikes as there are today.
@@davidmatthews3093 tt600 was pretty much discontinued. Triumph made a bold decision back then IMHO. Going against the grain of in line 4s. since the tt 600 can't think of a 4 cylinder trumpet. of course there are the retro twins and now a single in the 400. my point is not that the Japanese never made triples, but UJM was inline 4. Yamaha did produce a couple of triples in the 80s but were not their mainstay. they produce some now, but i am of the opinion that they now produce them due to the success that triumph had.i don't have an argument, i have an opinion just as everyone else does.
The reason the Japanese were so successful , they were prepared to invest time & money & improve on ideas we wouldn’t . They also built oil tight reliable motorcycles that started first time every time, at reasonable prices . The Indians & Chinese will be the next big guns ,followed by any nation that can manage to out produce & undercut them on price. All the big established motorcycle firms are already sourcing components ,engines & even in some cases complete motorcycles from China or far east . A scrambler styled bike with an engine capacity over 500 cc is ridiculous & totally over the top & mainly designed to attract posh boy latte cafe hipster set . The reason I reckon classic styled motorcycles are becoming popular, is because too many IT nerds & gamer boys have been allowed to run amok when designing modern motorcycles. This has resulted in many modern motorcycles looking like grotesque ugly mechanical insects overloaded & laden with unnecessary expensive tech & electronics . The classic old school styled bikes remind & enable the more mature riders to recapture, the days when motorcycles actually resembled motorcycles instead of a transformer toy
I think that the sports bike era is over largely due to modern road conditions and speed limits. I do agree that the Japanese manufacturers are no longer trend setters.
I agree,. In retrospect Sports Bikes were something of an anomaly in the history of motorcycling anyway.
My dad was telling me he bought a yamaha FS1e in the 70s but had to wait almost 3 month's for delivery because they couldn't supply quick enough, but still with yamaha, they make the mt09 which is a heck of a bike and I believe end of this year the R9 should be on sale to replace the r6 and r1 but most of the iconic Japanese iconic bikes 600s and 1000s are discontinued due to EU emmition rules, so you could say the West is killing the motorcycle industry.
i agree the nanny states and H&S have stunted a lot of things, but there's many more people on the roads, and smaller cc bikes often perform better than big bikes from years ago. while i think the 'man made climate change thing' is all lies and garbage, i do think less emissions can only be a good thing, and how fast do people really need to go anyway. GL
Yep I think the Japanese motorcycle market has lost the plot.
Their bikes are very well made but they tend to look rather naff now for the most part.
I have always bought Japanese motorcycles but I'm considering alternatives now.
I can appreciate that view, the whole 'transformer '
look has run it's course and the Japanese versions tend to be bland and unimaginative .👍
I think there are a few trends being set by the Japanese manufacturers. Mostly Yamaha though. Like how they started off the platform bike trend with the cp2 cp3 and cp4 bikes. The cp2 kicked off the recent parallel twin craze, which every manufacturer seems to be following. Also think of bikes like the T7, which led to Aprilia following suit with the Tuareg 660.
Every day with your CL500 is a birthday 🎂 😎🏍️
Absolutely 😊
Personally I've never really associated Japanese bikes with innovation, to me they've always represented quality and their bikes (small to large) were brilliantly made however the quality started to reduce from the late 90s onwards. Today they're still building great bikes but I wouldn't expect a modern Japanese motorcycle to be any better built or more reliable than a modern Italian or British bike.
Happy belated birthday by the way.
Thanks Carl .. many would agree with the decline of quality since the 90's ...personally I think they are still the best but the quality of all bikes is much improved and a bad bike is rare thing these days.
mmm.. think emissions has a big part across the board, honda range is huge and have there own finance company, competative pricing with main dealers worldwide. Own cbr650r and rebel 500 which is not to dissimiliar to your scrambler, Penblwydd Hapus
Take the point but emissions effect all manufacturers equally ... The Rebel is indeed the bike the CL is based on👍 Thanks for comment
I currently have a Honda and Suzuki motorcycles and a Honda car, all built in Japan. So i still favour Japanese vehicles over others from other parts of the world. Thats because i have trust and faith in their reliability and bulid quality. But its true that Japanese vehicles aren't as innovative or maybe as cool as other marques now, but at my age now i'm not interested in cool or impressing others.
I'm the same age as you and agree we had the best of it.
Thanks Jeff, I'm the same still trust Japanese engineering above all others ...I too have Bike Car and even Lawnmower all made by Honda .👍😁
@@WyreForestBikersnap
To be honest the first rero I can recall was the Kawasaki Zephyr going back to the 1990s. And I certainly wouldn't write them off as they are superb engineers with a great work ethic 🙄
Hi David - cannot argue with 'the history lesson' but feel your Honda research needs updating! I started with the class leading 4 stroke 125 twin in 67 and even though other makes entered/left my stable, the feeling of respect for the company has never left, so much so, have had the DCT gearbox, nothing comes near it for excellence and the latest bike, the ADV 350, is a wolf in sheeps clothing! Yes, seriously, actually 330cc but touches 90, sips at 83 mpg, suspension similar to a Citroen, a bike others are now frantically cloning! Its big brothers, the X-ADV and Forza 750, again are unique and even though UK sales are poor Europe is gobbling them up. Now the new E-Clutch as well? I believe you chose the 500 Scrambler because you could not find a better compromise, I am aware of our Eastern cousins difficulties, a similar demographic to the poor old UK but we have never produced anything good in bulk for 55 years!
Interesting view ... I have great respect for Honda too ( Car Bike and Mower in my ownership 😁) The E-clutch and other bikes are a good point ,It's certainly not an open and shut case but I still think they are not as much at the forefront as they they used to be ... Appreciate the comment👍
Emissions are killing everything. CF Moto sold millions of bikes last year and will be the next bid thing I think. RE prices creeping up yet still powerless. Also the UK is a tiny mkt. they build bikes for a worldwide audience. The UK has been obsessed with Willie waving power and cc’s
Happy b-day David! Hope it's a great one
I feel like it's not just Japan who's lost their mojo in terms of motorcycles, but I gotta agree that they're trending a lot less these days. Feels like nobody wants to take bold chances these days
Thanks for commenting ...much appreciated.
Your 2 weeks older than me, I had Rd 250 at 17 and I had few close calls
I had the Suzuki GT250 , both great bikes.
I agree entirely Dave, the Japanese have continued to make good bikes but not great bikes. I guess the last great bike from Japan was, indeed, the Hyabusa. The challenge they face today is that you can chose any genre and there will be some good Japanese bikes but I can't think of a single genre where the most desired bike in the class is a Japanese bike.
Good point , all very worthy bikes but no groundbreaking ones 👍
That is if you like Sports Bikes
Happy birthday dave nice meeting you down the cafe there is some food for thought on todays video .I do agree that royal enfield have set a few trends of late and i think india and china are making life difficult for the big four right now regarding motorcycle production and IT tech
Thanks, some good points indeed ... really good to meet you today👍.. catch you again soon,
Happy Birthday 🎂
Happy birthday!
Thanks Steven.. 😊