The ULTIMATE Indie Garage Rock Tone Machine!...but WTF is it?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video we'll diagnose and repair an amp which many thought had legendary rock and roll connections. This is an Orpheum labeled Valco amplifier, but as we will discover, it is truly a Supro Model 24 (S6424) underneath, an amp that for many years was assumed to be the amp that Jimmy Page used on the first Led Zeppelin album. We now know definitively that this is not the true Zep amp, so we will examine the evidence. Also, we will talk about replacement tubes for the fabled 6973 which power this amp. The 6cz5 is considered by many to be the best drop-in replacement, but is it truly a drop in substitution, or are modifications necessary? We will also talk a bit about the importance of having the appropriate speaker for your vintage amp. This one originally came with a Jensen C12Q, but that has been replaced with a Realistic speaker made by Utah. We'll discuss why this speaker isn't ideal for this amp. At the end of the video, we'll demo the amp with a PRS CE24 and my Zio Meteorologist.
#restoration #electronics #guitar
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it was rad that you had the correct speaker for this amp. it somehow reminded me of my cool old timer neighbor who had an pristine antique Winchester mod 94 lever action made in 1896 in 32-40 a caliber that was very hard to find in modern days, he told me that he had owned it for a long time but never got a chance to shoot it witch was on his bucket list. i told him to give me a few mins to go forage threw my strange ammo collection. i returned with 3 full 20ct boxes of cartridges the boxes wer for the 32win spsl witch he pointed out to witch i told him to check the head stamp on the actual cartridge and he let out a gasp...yup i said their all 32-40 sp nos. he asked what i wanted for them and my reply was for him to shoot them all then reload the shells a few times and just enjoy the experience!
Beautiful.
That's a. Wonderful story, you rock!
Awesome.
Valco nee 'Supro' made the kind of classic rock tone we came to appreciate on our 70s vinyl. These little amps sounded monstrous in the studio and truth be told, not too shabby in the garage or bedroom. Their early breakup and natural distortion from those, shall we say, inexpensive components Valco used are what made that tone!
What you see on the scope at about 27:29 is classic crossover-distortion, suggesting that either the two output tubes aren't properly biased, or, they're worn-out, or, something isn't letting them operate correctly.
Brad and Uncle Doug on the same day... Perfect! Cheers!
always a great way to kick off the weekend with a new amp video from the Guitologist! thanks Brad, and have a great weekend!
Thanks for watching, Jon.
I just went through this issue building a clone of a Valco 6161. It’s basically the same design. I had to up the dropping resistor to the screen node to get the voltage down to 280 for using 6cz5’s. But that lowered the preamp node too much. Caused anemic tone. I branched off the first node ,bypassing the screen node to the 15k resistor to the preamp node. Fixed it right up! So to sum up, I just used a combo of ladder and branch filtering. The amp is one of my favorite builds. Really sounds good. Update:went back to the 6973’s and original ladder filtering scheme. They just have a bit MORE of everything the 6CZ5’s have. But it’ll accept both types of tubes with the screen grids jumpered. Just have to lower the screen voltage.
It's so relaxing to see you at work on all those old amplifiers. I only work on my guitars electrically like swapping out pickups now and then and experiment with different switching ideas. But I keep way clear of high voltage appliances. Keep up the excellent work, love your channels as well as your work 🙂
It's not HV! HV is like above 480 V I thought!?
Good lord Brad, I have a new appreciation for your videography skills. I watched a video about a Roberts reel to reel just to get a look at the chassis before I actually start working on one. The info was there but I was actually yelling ,” SPIT IT OUT!” at the TEEVEE because the guy was mumbling and all over the place with the video! I appreciate that he put the information up and I’m sure I couldn’t make a better video but it doesn’t change the fact that I got an aneurism trying to watch it! You obviously have a natural talent for video production. I can’t imagine how annoying it would be to film a trouble shooting process as well as write an outline and something akin to a script. Then again it’s probably a pretty great experience when it all comes together right!
Shoot first and ask "is this necessary" later. That's my philosophy on video production.
@@TheGuitologist Thats a good way to record music as well. There’s usually SOMETHING worth making into a song.
Old amps like this have tons of character. This would be a great one to bring into the studio. Sure it sounds boxy in the video but mic'd up it would sound totally different.
Well, ya also have to consider the pesky compression that happens to audio when loaded onto youtube.
Sounds boxy because of the ceramic caps. Old and dried out. Orange drops would remedy that for pennies.
I recently took an interest in the old Bose Wave radios.
The prices are still high.
Apparently the capacitors need to be replaced, just like older guitar amplifiers
Hey Brad, greetings from Bulgaria! Your amazing videos are very interesting, educational and motivational! I want to thank you so much for it!
You are super professional musician and intelligent equipment technician! My respects!
Happy New Year 2023 to you, your family, friends, all the people around you and your followers here!
:-) God bless you all!
This show just keeps getting better...the playing, that clip of JP showing the tele he got from JB
and that little 6970 supro with the 12' speaker., the phone call to SRVs amp tech. So much info
I may want to watch this one twice after I go check my national and my supro for the 550 code on the jensens
These are the kinds of videos that really make me wish I knew a bit more about electronics. Great stuff - the amp is really cool!
The rubbing speaker coils: If the coils are not detaching from the cone, remove the dust cap, shim out the coil, inject a small amount of water and let it evaporate for a couple of days. No guarantees but it might work and save a recone job. Good luck.
Yep it works, I used acetone though.
I have what I’m fairly certain is the Montgomery Ward equivalent (so to speak) of this amp and I have to say returning it to an old ‘66 C12Q was really what brought the whole thing home. As nice as the newer Jupiter speaker has the previous owner had installed was-the magnet was just to big or something.
For my money, it sounded best with that ‘Dali’ Tele you were using at the end. Fantastic.
Really enjoy your videos! It's great to see and hear these classics, many of which I wouldn't be able to get to see in person.
Thank you!!!
Dude I just love listening to you mess around playing the guitars ...the bonus is generally the old amps at that. Plus I learn a bit more about the good electronics each upload. Merry Xmas to you and fam Brad.
Everytime I watch your vids I get the itch to go out garage saling & hitting up resales shops!! Great job reviving that Orpheum, sounds decent even with the RS speaker! Thanks Brad!!
Hey Karl. Good to see you here. Thanks for watching, as always.
Nice work and playing Brad, thank you Sir! Have a good weekend! :)
I remember having one of those orange realistics and liking it quite alot.
I think it would be perfect for some amps, just not this one. Too much dope on the cone for this one.
@@TheGuitologist would you mind explaining what you mean by dope? I don't know what this is referring to.
@@fredgarvin4482 It's an old school name for lacquer or any solvent based coating, clear to opaque. Lacquer, or dope, hardens when it dries, and would make the cone more stiff, effecting it's response.
Wow- Thanks Brad! That amp is RAGING!!
Found one about 15 years ago at a salvage store $50. Got new can cap new rec tube and a new after market handle and a grounded power supply. Ended up at around $450. traded it to a guy that swore it was a page amp. The guy that repaired it said Jimmy didint play or record with this amp.I told him. I made out like a bandit.
The amp sounds a bit boxy to me. Back in the sixties most of the guitarists I knew thought the Supros were crap. Their reputation has changed over the years. Entertaining and informative video, Brad.
They were made for accordions and mics. An Italian tradition.
Magnific! Love me some old Valco.
Other than the handle, the construction techniques and materials are identical to my old Airline 62-9017a. For any would-be Santas out there, I could use an Airline logo to make mine complete.
Great video - thanks, Brad!
Re-pop Airline logo's are available on Ebay. Black or White. They are glue on...no screws
@Timothy B . . I was thinking the same thing. I have the Airline 62-9017A as well. Man it's hard to find a whole lot of info on it. Mine needs work, and has probably been in someone's basement for decades. It does have the Airline logo, but it's missing the big V that goes on the front.
I keep missing these premieres dude. TH-cam never notifies me for your videos anymore.
Beautiful vintage tone that blows anything current out of the water...
Wow looking at the square nuts on the side of the amp. Cool. That’s what voice rub sounds like. 🙏 thanks.
I've had a couple of these over the years... they really have maximum bark!! Some amps break up so gradually... but these really jump at you... I would have liked to hear it miked up well, to show what they do with a good mic or two catching that speaker and amp drive
Man oh man mega respect dude. Wish I could work on or build amps😁👍
Good timing - I just bought the same amp --- but it's the VALCO AIRLINE version 62-9033A Appears identical. Mine appears all original. Has the original tubes - all RCA's including the 6973's. Original Jensen C12Q. Killer tremolo! Great to see your video to help me go thru the amp! QUESTION --- I'm thinking this is the same circuit as the VALCO Gretsch 6162, except the addition of reverb on the 6162? Thank you!
The demo playing is always killer to watch. Nice old amp Steve has there and sounds good too.
for whatever reason the algorythm has stopped telling me when you post new videos... thankfully i check in once in a while to those i follow and appreciate. Merry Xmas Brad! keep making the great content you make ! love from Canada
I have no idea what this is all about, but i realy like watching it. I think it's an engineering mentality thing. Keep posting! Love this content.
Hey Brad, As you obviously know, Valco made the same amp branded for several companies. My second amp ever was the Supro version. A few years after I had moved on to other amps, I read an interview with Page that had photos of the same amp but with a Gretch badge. Jimmy referred to it as having two 10" speakers. My little Supro also had two 10s and although his amp looked darker in the black and white picture, and had the different logo, they looked identical. Just my 2 cents to muddy the waters as to the brand of Jimmy's amp. Thanks again for all the great 'edu-tainment' you provide!
Brad, I'm a long time sub with ALL notofications turned on for your channels. I have not been notified of any of your recent videos. Just a heads up mate, hope you are all doing well and best wishes from Canada!
I know. You and I both know why.
@@TheGuitologist yea, usually they just effect non sub interaction... seems they are going to a new level lately... it sucks as it effects people's ability to learn from your videos as well :(, keep up the good fight man, we're rooting for ya!
Same here!!!!
My 1967 Supro Thunderbolt was a Valco Amp and it came with 15" Jensen speaker
🤗🤗 That amp sounds really great!! Old pro tip, ....record with a small amp to get a huge sound.....good advice. Thanks Brad..Cheers and Merry Christmas!!
More like a dumb tip...smh
Considering that's what a lot of old pros did, it's more like a fact. 😎
@@enigma1247 The engineer that mixed Def Leppards Hysteria album (plus others) showed me how their producer, Mutt Lange, got such huge guitar tracks. He opened the door to the vocal booth and sitting on a stool was a small guitar combo amp with a 10" speaker. it had great sounding distortion and drive and it was conversation loud. Stack a double handful of tracks with different tones: Voila!
Jimmy through his original rig hits hard!
Telecasters rule!
That blows away my boss tremolo pedal.
Steve Wilson worked on my 65 Gibson Mercury amp last year,an old barn find,glad to bring this old amp back to life.Tell Catfish hi for me next time you see him for me Brad!😁
Nice! I was hoping you would do a video on one of these type amps!
I've seen that V/I = Futile sticker countless times, but it wasn't until this moment that 'Resistance is futile' jumped out at me.
In the 70's friend brought over a Supro⚡2-12 combo amp. Pretty awesome.
Glad to see you are back informing us of obscure stuff...stay strong and THANK YOU! this is my Christmas present Sir Bradford😊😏😏
That PT is super clean. Looks brand new.
I LOVE old utah speakers! They are spongy as hell and have a very unique tone. I have a quad reverb with utah speakers and they sound amazing with pedals. The quad utahs are the same speakers that kurt used on inutero. From what ive seen, a lot of blues and country guitarist hate these speakers compared to the jensen alternative.
Good call on the 5y3…the higher voltage from the 5ar4 + the higher line voltage today vs 1960s, a lot of components would have been cooking in there!
man i just love your intros
This amp sounds damn good!
daaaym i did not see that coming.. how well it sounded
Nice one! That amp sounds good. Also cool to hear some Orpheum history. I have an Orpheum archtop guitar that I've always figured was older than 1950s.
Love the old Valco. Pull the speaker from an old Hammond. Alnico , 16 ohms @ 15 watts. Perfect voicing
True! It's fairly easy to pick up old Jensen's online (reverb, eBay), for not much money too. I have one from an organ pull and it sounds great.
I'm gonna comment before even watching today all because of your thumbnail for this vid. RED ZEPPLIN roflmfao! Very clever bro and Merry F'n Christmas! lol
The realistic speaker sounds great
That wuz great, Brad...
Thankum wally mooch
The pin out modification might have something to do with using a 6cz5 or even a 5cz5 if you used a resistor to reduce the heater to 4.7 vac on the 5 volt version, usually 1 ohm for two tubes.These are much much cheaper tubes and comparable tube data. Long plate 5cz5's are very cheap and plentiful, I have a huge stash of them :) Remember too that the way the 6973 and 6cz5 are rated differently on tube sheets and are very likely able to handle the same voltages. Try a 5cz5 long plate I think you will like. BTW I see you address the 6cz5 later :)
A very nice video! Thank you Brad and Steve!
These sound so awesome. But why do we hear that Jimmy used marshalls?
Excellent work per usual, Brad!
Woo Hoo like number 235! Great video man. Keep up All of your good works, here and in the real world. I believe in you.
You're too kind. Thanks Cecil.
Just scored two military RCA tubes from 1944.
A VT-115 A 6L6G and a VT-115 CRC6L6.
Brad, what is that book you always refer too.? It seems to have everything you need in there. Really enjoy your videos too, if you have any vintage amps for sale I’d love to get one that you’ve worked on!
I am digging the overdrive tone on this amp. I bet it would even better with a more closed back
Great playing once again man!
Would have loved to hear it close miked
Great offering ! Bummer about the speaker.
I miss Radio Shack.
Looks like those marketed by Gretsch too. Another informative video. Thanks!
I have A/B’d the EH 6973 and RCA black plate 6973 and it’s a world of difference, at least in my Valco Harmony 430. It came to life with the RCA’s. Getting rare and I’ve only came across a couple of matched pairs that were within a 100$ or a bit more these last few years. Got burnt on one set but it has been worth it to upgrade to these old 50’s RCA. Don’t know how the Sylvania 6973 compare though? Finally have a great backup pair to boot. I imagine that many a modern Supro owner has tried them out but I have no idea of how they sound in that circuit that uses the EH’s.
I agree with pretty much everything you just said.
What a beaut! Nice growl on that thing.
RCA projectors, like the one you showed a few years ago, use 6973 output in push-pull configuration. I still have a nice amp pull from one.
Voiced like Jimmy and his Tele' I believe that Zio found its mate!
Love watching these, learning every day
Excellent video, Brad. Thanks
Since I'm an organ player and guitar player I'm a big fan of Jensen Special Design speakers for Fender, Wurlitzer, and Thomas Organ Co., but UTAH speakers sound great on the Fender Bassman 2-12" cabinets.
I still have my first real head an old peavey 70’s era super festival F-800G with matching 4S scorpion cabinet. Of course it’s not working so I’ll be reworking it. It has 10 final power amps, and I may switch it to tubes.
Could make for an interesting video.
Man, I have an old Bogen Challenger CH35 that I converted to a guitar amp a few years ago. It has 6973s in it and sounds very much like the Supro/Valco, I absolutely love the sound of those things!! Irun it into a 1x12 open back cab I built which I also put a Jensen 12" in. I actually have 2 spare pairs of 6973s I pulled out of an old Silvertone console stereo 😍 (yes, I saved the associated output transformers)
Seriously one of my favorite tubes, just a big fat warm dirty sound.
Thanks for the video. You make tube amp repair look like commen sense. Keep on rocking
I like these and have two of them - one Gretsch and one National branded. I also built one with no tremolo from a Hammond organ chassis. Years ago I bought many 6973s and 6CZ5s. Per your comments about RCA tubes - they are built better and sound better than the Sylvania tubes of the same specs/numbers from the same time period. Their structure is quite different. Also, although tube manuals state different voltage ratings between the 6973s and the 6CZ5s the RCA tubes under a magnifying glass look absolutely identical except for the pin connections. So for the RCAs I think they are the same tube. And - do they sound like JP? Maybe, but I sure as Hell don't.
These are the same (Utah) speakers as my 71 twin reverb,I'm not the original owner but I believe they were stock, sound good.
Some players are going to see this and look to buy this baby now. Mark my words.
Damn, that sounds good. I really want one of the old Supro amps. Maybe one days I'll find one.
Love your vids mate, they're always awesome and this one rocks too ! Keep up the good work.
Thanks for saving my Xmas, have you come across the modern Supro Black Magik? I like mine, has everything i need, trem, verb, 2 channels and master vol, seems very well built ( for a modern amp ), thank god Electro Harmonix still make the 6973 tubes though- I bought a couple of spare sets just in case anyway. Keep up the good work.
That amp sounds awesome
Hey, Brad, great in depth troubleshooting video!!! Your explanation on jumping the pins 1 and 8, should we jump those in an amp using 6973’s? It wouldn’t hurt them would it? Because I’m thinking of adding a switch instead of jumping directly, any thoughts? Thank you for all of your help in keeping this art alive! Wish I have a small fraction of your knowledge!!!
That amp has the exact same tolex pattern, and grill cloth as my Airline 62-9017A. . Also has the exact same 35mfd 50v capacitors, which I'm getting ready to replace because one of them has exploded like a firecracker.
Great video, Brad! Keep it up!
Sweet sounding amp
I find these videos so interesting.
Those orange painted “Realistic” speakers were actually just rebranded made in the USA Utah speakers. They would have likely had an aluminum dust cap originally. Great speakers!
Hey Brad. IDK, it could be me, but at about 36:40- 36:41, when you are putting the nut on the screw, I noticed rocking, of something. I don't know, if it was the spkr. rocking on a potentially slightly warped front panel, or if it was the entire amp, rocking on the bench. Wouldn't the first scenario, also warp the spkr. ring, when tightened, creating the cone rub?.. Like i said, it might be me, but there was a definite rocking motion, somewhere. And, if Steve replaces the spkr., it may cause the same issue, with the new spkr..
That was my first amp in the early 80s only mine was supro branded with the gray covering. Also the first amp that got sacrificed to the gods of learning amp building.
I can't prove it, but I do know Page said in an interview about 1969 that he used a small Rickenbacker amp in the studio for Zeppelin's first album. I had the privilege of getting one of the first copies of the album in early January of 1969 (or late December 1968). I remember he said Rickenbacker because I did a double take and thought to myself (being from America) that I didn't know Rickenbackers made amps.
Maybe it was made by Supro for Rickenbacker
My Jukebox has 6973.... I THINK....... damn, gotta check my old videos. I put the EH in there, and it's been a non-issue.
Nice break up! Never underestimate the sonic character of ceramic disc capacitors.
I always enjoy your gear related content 👍
My first show was at the Orpheum in Boston in 77... The Dead.
I could've swore I remember reading an interview decades ago with Jimmy Page, where he did claim to use a Supro amp in the studio for the 1st Zep album. He even stated that once he mentioned the Supro in a very early interview, how everyone began snatching them up, and he couldn't even find one to buy for himself. So what amp did he use back then? Hopefully, the answer is in this video, so I'll have to watch it again, because I can't recall.
450V on 6973/EL84 B+? Stand-by by cutting the bias off? Holy shit, that amp is an output tube killer.
Dropping the B+ is definitely a good idea here.
I just think that switching that switch and causing a spike in current immediately, without a charging power capacitor seems like it could eventually harm the tube. I'll admit I'm not certain this would be harmful.
Cool video Brad. Always love your playing. Was the AC cord left 2 prong for the sake of originality?
No, it was because Steve said he'd do the grunt work on it. He just thought I'd like to demo it.
@@TheGuitologist ok. Thanks