Thank You. I know there is a lot of time/money/effort involved in the process of cranking out these videos. There are those of us out there that really appreciate the help.
I have learned more from this 1 video than I have in the thousands of other videos I’ve watched over the years. This is pure gold. Thank you professor Tim.
Couldn't be happier stumbling on to your channel. I'm retired and work in a gun shop that's been around for 72yrs, and I've never heard it broken down like this. With an understanding of why things happen, it gives the ability to find a solution. No one is doing this, as far as i know. Thank you, for sharing your experience.
Thank you for that Mark. When Dale and I talk about this series, our conversations echo what you just said. "There is NOBODY putting out information like this." As I've mentioned to you before, I'm trying to set a new standard for how things are done. Get these lazy ass, surface level TH-camrs off their ass or they're gonna get left behind. Thank you for being a loyal supporter.
The time and blunders you’re saving us FNG’s is invaluable! Thank you for your efforts. My 12 year old and I both shoot 7PRC and I just got us set up with our first press and listen to reloading video after video while driving truck 600+ miles a day, really I can’t thank you enough!
Gordons Reloading Tool is awesome. Calculated velocity on my 20“ 30-06 with the 200 grain ELD-X was 2550 ft/s. Just had the Garmin out, average velocity was 2551.1 ft/s Key is taking all your measurements, especially to liter out the cases. My Starline is way lower than the SAAMI H2O
Okay, i lowered my estimation of where i am on the Dunning Kruger chart. My load development process is admittedly in need of improvement and this video gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for taking the time to explain your methods.
These videos are absolute gold. I've been reloading for the 7RM my entire life and you're confirming everything I've learned and taking it to another level. Can't thank you enough for sharing.
I downloaded GRT because of this video. Thank you for your time and effort on this topic of load development! Interested in working in some new power/bullet combos to see how they work out
So much Gold in this video! Thank you for teaching us! I don't get the craze for getting a magnum rifle and neutering it with a short barrel. Staball HD sucks... I found that out the hard way. I get crazy velocities with Ramshot LRT... but the accuracy sucked. Lastly thank you for exposing the biased load data
Thanks man, I'm glad you appreciate what I'm doing. I see you over there working your ass off too, trying to help however you can. Right. LRT is fast, if you're cool with highly compressed loads. It shot ok in my 7 Rem Mag but the 257 Roy was an epic dumpster fire. Happy to do it man, somebody has to talk about it and stop glorifying these manuals.
Ive been reloading for about 8 years. Chasing rabbits through the weeds with my load development and had success at a great cost in powder and bullets. I wish I knew then from your videos what I have learned. THANK YOU KEEP THE INFO COMING
Another informative video, with your no nonsense experience 'data'! Delivered with satire, knowledge and wit. I picture trolls and keyboard warriors losing their shit watching this...makes me smile. Thanks!
Great info. The barrel length data is interesting. I was wondering if adding a suppresser increase muzzle velocity and if the length of the suppressor matters?
Thanks for this greatly needed information. You've saved a lot of time and money for many of us by publishing this. One question: I'm a 270 win reloader. I realize from a comment you made that you aren't loading 270 win. If you were, would you add any additional powders to your short list?
Thank you for the positive feedback. No, I wouldn't. For 24" Barrels 130gr Class Bullets = N555 or N160 150gr Class Bullets = N555 or N160 170gr Class Bullets = N555 or N160 or N560 if you want to lean on it.
I have been loving this series, finding it hard to wait for the entire thing to come out, I’ve been reloading for 20 years at… after watching this, a very amateur level! I downloaded the Gordon’s reloading tool after watching and have been completely immersed. Prior to discovering this series I replaced my old 7mm rem with a new lighter version (same caliber 7mm rem mag) and decided to go mono (150 ttsx) for this rifle. H4831 gave by far the best accuracy and ended at a velocity I was aiming for, 3139 fps with a 24.3” barrel. Do you think I have landed in the appropriate velocity range? My numbers in the tool look like I’m pushing it on pressure but no tell tale signs on the brass. Thanks for the great content, and a wealth of knowledge!
Thank you for the support. Glad I can save you some time, money and effort. Yeah, that's a little spicy. Signs on the brass isn't always at the same pressure. as it depends on brand and hardness. If you aren't having any brass or function issues and the brass is lasting more than 3 firings, you're probably ok.
You're Welcome! It's not all sunshine and roses. In my opinion, what I'm discussing in this video is the easiest part of handloading. Getting good equipment and getting the brass sized consistently is the hardest/most important part.
This was unbelievably helpful and informative. Thank you!! Any chance you would show how you measure case capacity for input into GRT? Would love to see that. Thanks again for the content
I might have missed this but Do you use a chronograph to look for relatively consistent velocity when doing your ladder test or do you base your ladder test simply on consistent hits on paper?
If you stick to the powders on my list, when you find the charge weights with consistent point of impact, the velocity will be consistent at that place as well. Focus on point of impact location and velocity consistency will follow.
Thank you Docto, it doesn't hurts... Whe you are smashed with facts. I've been told so many times, about smoke... But your work is a jewel. For all of un. Bravo!!!! As in Mexico said. God will give you a lot more.
After watching and looking at both lists of powder (viable and Tim's), IF you had to choose 1 based on what is available, imr 4350 or h4831 for a 7mm rem mag? As always, much thanks to time and work that you do for all of us shooters!
Great video…I have been hand loading for 45+ years and somehow had never heard of Gordon’s… I am really looking forward to the rest of the series…thanks for taking the time to put these together.
Excellent information. Thank you for the no BS style in sharing your experience and knowledge. Question…were the 8 - 10 shot ladders shot at 100 yards?
Thank you! I would say N555, N560 are the best choices. Everything else is either too fast, too slow or has too low of a fill ratio. Short barreled magnums are problem children.
Glad to hear it. That was my goal, to get you guys to stop wasting so much time and money on load development. Get something consistent, it doesn't have to be the best. Just consistent, and then get out and shoot.
Very good and educational. Don’t have to think too much in concluding most of the material presented makes sense. I have to adjust my thinking process about powder selection. I have an ample supply of RL23 and 26 for my Ackley that produce great results but I have some H4350 I can test with my .280AI. Thanks Tim for another great episode of the series.
A very important point you made in this video, which I see some not ranking at the top of the order of hierarchy, is high load density and complete powder burn. Those are the keys to load consistency. If one doesn't begin there, one unnecessarily complicates the rest of the process.
Very well-done, thank you! I have been reloading & shooting long range for a few years, believe I have some nice shooting, customed barreled rifles but I learn new shit from every one of your videos.
Thanks Alan! I'm doing my best to weed through the BS for you guys and get some useful information out there. I'm glad I could teach ya a thing or two.
Thanks once again. I spent hours of my childhood going over ballistics and reading data in reloading books. One thing I soon found out, was that none of them agreed on velocities or max charge weight. It was pretty entertaining one day though when a kinda cousin came over and we pulled out the chronograph. My 300win was shooting in the 3,150 range with my loads, and his was around 2,800 with his loads. My biggest takeaway from this episode was making sure to use a powder that has 100% burn weight. I remember the days when the wsm's came out. One of the biggest brags was that you could get the shot fat case, you could get the same velocity out of a short barrel, and less recoil. Very few were interested in hearing my dissenting opinions. Thanks for the info.
I use quickload software to get some idea of some loads but i find software to be only a rough tool, not to be relied upon as gospel. Most of the powder combos ive tried at my cartridge loaded dimensions and capacity, have not totally lined up with predictions. As instructed by the tool, adjust burn rate to match your velocity reading to”tune” the tool to your gun combo and it works pretty good, just dont necessarily trust the default values. I may check my data on the GRT to see how it compares
I completely agree. It's a great tool to get an idea on where to start. Shoot a little, calibrate the tool, load your final ladder and go test it with confidence. It's a hell of a lot better than fumbling through loading manuals and hoping for the best.
Very interesting, I really like the powder information. I didn’t know that about ball powder. Most of mine that I have on the shelf is extruded. I have a couple questions. 1. I see you left N170 off your list and chose N570. Is that because it’s double base with the nitroglycerin? More velocity as a result? And if so, and if you have used both of them, have you found one to be more temperature stable than the other? The reason I ask is because Bryan Litz at applied ballistics states The 170 is more stable than 570 because it’s the nitroglycerin in the powder of the double base powders that make it temperature sensitive. Have you found that to be true? I have both but have not used the 570 yet. 2. I have to ask this because you kinda challenged us and I want to see what your response is. I have a 300 PRC, 26 inch barrel, shooting the 190 CX bullet. What are the top three powders? 😊
Hey Ed, there is nothing wrong with N170. That area of burn rate is already very saturated on my list of 15 powders. So I eliminated it to keep the list shorter. Not because N170 is flawed. Yes 570 will be considerably faster, provided you have a big enough case to use 570. Which is a tall order in and of itself. The 7 PRC with a 160CX is a scaled down version of the 300 PRC with a 190 CX. So... drumroll... USE THE EXACT SAME POWDERS! For the exact same reasons. There are no better choices for the 300 PRC and 190gr CX than what we are testing in the 7 PRC.
@@LittleCrowGunworks would you consider making the raw cartridge data available for the Gordon’s software? Downloaded today and 7 PRC isn’t available for obvious reasons. It may make things easier for the novice following along.
I explained how to achieve it in the video. Watch the beginning of that Gordons portion again. I walk you through step by step. I went fast, but it's all there.
I appreciate this instruction very much, thank you. Very interesting on the load development process. I will be implementing this for sure. I never knew barrel length effected the burn. Another valuable lesson learned here.
Thank you for these videos they are very informative. I'm a little confused on simply changing the internal volume and overall length of the 7 mag for GRT. Won't you also need to slightly tweak the case diameter because the prc is slightly larger, or does shape not affect the presure only overall volume.
You're welcome. Technically yes, it will be more accurate if you have all the correct case dimensions. But it won't be different enough to include or exclude certain powders from viability. I don't want you guys getting lost in the weeds. Or not using the tool just because the 7 PRC isn't in the database. If you can add the 7 PRC and do it correctly, go for it. But if you can't the much quicker and dirtier way is to modify something that's close. At the end of the day, the GRT projections don't matter as soon as the first shot is fired. Reality trumps projections. GRT is just a great tool to figure out approximately where you should be and what powders are viable. Nothing more. You don't get a gold star if your projection perfectly matches reality.
That's great Shawn! I just hit the wavetops so I'm happy it was helpful. I could spend a hundred hours on this subject, so I'm glad one and a half was beneficial.
LRT is good for the big overbore stuff and i like it in 28 nosler. Its not compressed. I dont find it dirty. It shoots the berger 195’s well for me so far. Did take a while to find a load to shoot the 180 hybrids but i was very picky and i played too much with chasing ultimate velocity where it just wasnt happy. Its still cooking at the lower node 3260’s fps.
Ramshot powder burns really clean. But most ball powders don't. I'm glad someone is finding a use for LRT. It was a dumpster fire in the two cartridges I tried it in.
Thanks again Tim for the great content and more things to research for myself. After some issues getting Gordon's to load, what a great tool!!! THANK YOU!!
Thanks so much for the info. I am loading for 6.5 PRC. I downloaded the tool and found that I dont get 100% burn rate for the powder I was about to test for the 127gr LRX. This info will save me lots of time in my quest for the smallest groups that I can find. I will try the CX next. I already bought the LRX.
Ive just found you. Preach, brother! I've been reloading for almost 10 years, but I'm still not super experienced but learned about Gordons. Shot the mile with my .308 this past weekend. I know thats not what its made for but bullshit! Loading 178 eld match @ 2700 fps books at like 2400. Ridiculous man.
Excellent content! Took me most of the afternoon to get through it, but I got it done. I'm just getting started with reloading and thrilled I came across your channel. When you are doing the initial shots looking for pressure and such, what distance are you shooting at? I apologize if you mentioned it and I just didn't catch it. It seems to me that longer distances would be more useful for plotting stable charge weights, but can it be done at say 100yds?
Thank you for that. I'm glad you found us. Great question. Naturally you will find out in the next video but, yes, 100yds. You can do it at 200yds, if and only if you are experienced doing this sort of test and if you have a gun that shoots very small. But otherwise all the added distance does is introduce noise that you won't be able to sift through.
Not sure if it warrants an entire video but I can talk about it a little more when we have all the loads finished and bring it in as an extreme high end comparison. We can make you a 7-300NI but, start apologizing to your wallet now... You either need to burn almost half your barrel life, just to fireform 100pcs of brass. Or buy it from me for like $8/piece. And you'll be buying barrels 2 at a time because it has about a 300 round barrel life. Remember what I said about top fuel dragsters.
I have learned so much from these 3 videos so far keep up the great work! I am newer to reloading and have been trying to get a load with my 6.8 western to shoot good for deer and have not been able to find an accurate load. I am using 170 grain nosler ballistic tips due to that being all i could find. Could you recommend a powder for me to try in my 24 inch gun?
Thank you! I answered this awhile ago, but it didn't post. Not sure why. Same powders as the 7 Rem and 7 PRC. If you wanted to start with one, make it H4831SC. You probably won't need a second option.
Grand is a great powder from my chrono but I did find pressure with it but from my understanding retumbo doesn’t do well in short mags staball hd wasn’t worth a crap. But grand sure produce the best results in my rifle Great series keep it up
I wanted to make Staball HD work in my 7mm prc because it was available at my local store. The velocity I was getting was close to predicted but the groups were 2+ MOA. Thanks for giving me an excuse to stop messing with it.
Wow, so simple yet complicated. Learned more in 90 minutes. I like your style, not affraid to speak from experience even though its going to ruffle some. Thanks for the instruction on Gordons. I've had the download I could enter all the databut didn't know how to use all the fields. subcribed
You're welcome! Thank you for coming along on the adventure and for putting up with me for long enough to get something out of it. I didn't have anyone to show me the shortcuts. I had to earn them. And by the time I did, I wished I had someone to show me the shortcuts. So I'm trying to offer this for those that are frustrated and sick of wasting resources. If it pisses someone off in the process because I bad mouthed their "sacred cow"; too bad.
This is fascinating. It makes sense to me that burning 100% of powder X in cartridge Y benefits accuracy but few if any others talk about that. The phenomenon of bigger powder charge => higher pressure => greater burn percentage was a surprise. I assume that you are going to talk about case fill % later. It makes sense that’s important but I don’t know what the optimal range is or if it varies by cartridge or by powder. (I hand load for pistol cartridges and those rarely come anywhere near filling the case.) Is Gordon’s the only ballistic software that calculates both burn percentage and fill %? Your discussion of the conflicts of interest in published load data was eye opening. I have enough experience to have wondered about that more than once based on results over a chronograph. I gradually concluded that it was best to treat data from the bullet manufacturer as my primary source, with the powder manufacturer as backup/confirmation. That was just based on experience. However, if a corporation only makes bullets, it is in their best interest to provide the best data possible regardless of what powder is shown. Hodgdon? Their data wanders a LOT over time and you just showed us 3 examples of hocus pocus there. Hornady makes bullets but also has an interest in some powders, such as LeveRevolution which always shows 100-200 fps faster than other powders. I hadn’t questioned before that but now you’ve got me wondering. (I love lever action rifles, especially .30-30 and .45-70.)
All published data is no more than a reference. Treat it accordingly. I like to see a fill ratio north of 92% but under 103%. That means you are getting everything you can out of that cartridge. You're not using powders that are too slow or too fast. But powders are not universally viable. Some powders hit max pressure at say 96% fill, which sounds perfect but, you look at burnt propellant and it's STILL under 100%. That means that powder is very slow and very dense. Which is a great combination for speed, but you need enough barrel length to get the most out of it. That is why software like this is so important. Because if you look at a relative burn rate chart like I showed. It's so generic, it makes things appear linear and it's not.
The other part of that is the Hornady Data and Hodgdon data varies by several grains. I have been able to push the retumbo much harder than Hornady data, but NOT true with Staball
That is EXACTLY my point about published load data. My test data with our three powders parallel yours. Some of Hornady's charge weights are near the max that I found and some are WAY off. Primers, brass, powder lots, bullet lots, barrel specs, etc. All of that stuff gets a say in the final pressure. It's just a reference. The trouble with the Retumbo and a 160 is no matter how hard you push it, it's not all burning. It's too slow. That's why I didn't choose it. I have 17lbs of it and Dale has another 10. It's not like we couldn't use it. I love Retumbo, it's too slow for that case and bullet.
Just want to say thanks again for the great content. I’ve been trying to spread the word about your channel because it’s got some of the best content there is and is said in a way that’s easy to understand. Looking forward to seeing how all the testing shakes out. Been trying to decide between the 7 RM, 7 PRC, and 300 WM for my new elk gun.
The 7 RM has more case capacity than the 7 PRC, but will have the bullet seated in the powder and only has a SAAMI max pressure of 61,000 compared to 65,000 in the 7 PRC. I’m frankly new to all this, but wouldn’t the lower max pressure further reduce how many grains of powder can be used and put these both pretty close to equal as far as usable case capacity?
The SAAMI max pressure has to do with the average maximum pressure the available actions at the time could handle. It has nothing to do with what the brass can handle. If you have a modern/new 7 Rem Mag and a new 7 PRC, and Peterson Brass for each, you can safely run them to the same pressure.
Hello, I know in your past video you identified the range of powders a guy could use for the rest of his life and be very satisfied. That said, and I know this is a 7mm series, but I have a .270 Win. Does the list you shared also apply to the .270? And, if so, which would be the preferred place to start? Thanks in advance and…I’m really enjoying the 7mm series.
@@LittleCrowGunworks…understood. I run mostly 24 and 26 inch barrels but I do have 20 inch barrels on a couple small caliber guns that I have no intention of getting optimal loads on. I’m not yet a reloaded but I will be in the future. As you know, factory loading aren’t always optimized and your latest tutorial confirmed my suspicion. I appreciate your response…the list you provided will prevent me, a newbie, from buying a bunch of crap I don’t need. Thanks again.
Such a shame that Gordon is not with us anymore. He did such a great job with this software! There is an option in Gordon’s for powder selection as well
I believe it has already. I was starting to work a paper and steel load for my 300 win. 168 tips, I was going to try the classic powders, H4831SC, H1000 etc. Ran the program and found they are too slow in that weight. Starting with n160 and h4350. Thank you
Love the series, I was just about to load a few rounds of 7RM and I have adjusted my powder options. Instead, I will try your 10 shot method w the powder that I do have. Then will determine if I need to search out the other 2. Great info. Now to download Gordon’s RT to find optimum powders for my other rifles.
To clarify a little. It's only 10 shots if you REALLY know your charge weight range. You need to load high enough to find the max, so you know where to stay the hell away from. Yes, get Gordons, it's a must if you're serious about this stuff.
I'm in the middle of putting together a 7rem mag. Trying to choose the right rate of twist has slowed me down. I like the CX bullet so I'm guessing I need to shoot a 1:8 rate of twist?
With twist, you need to be careful. For the 160gr CX, an 8" twist is ENOUGH for warmer climates or higher elevations (with any temp). But if you're going to shoot big mono's exclusively, a 7.5 or 7" twist would be better. ESPECIALLY if you hunt in the cold at low elevations. The trouble is, if you go all the way to a 7" twist, then you are "stuck" with monos or HEAVY lead core bullets. If you try light lead core, you can separate the jacket from the core. I've done it.
@LittleCrowGunworks I was thinking of a 26inch with a 1:8 or 1:8.5 twist rate. I do hunt in northern Michigan where it gets below freezing. Since this is my first 7mm rem mag I want to get it right lol or as right as I can educate myself. I do like the hornady set bullets for whitetail in Michigan they have always done a good job, but I think the Barnes ttsx or the cx bullets will do a great job as well. I have other magnums if I need a heavy bullet for out west elk or big bears but that doesn't mean I don't want a all around choice for my 7mm rem mag. question:: if I go with a 1:8 twist is that going to completely destroy my ability to shoot 139gr SST or 145gr LRX ?? or the 150gr nosler partition??
If you want to use the 160gr CX successfully in the cold in Northern Michigan, I would get a 7.5" twist at the slowest. A 7" twist would be better. Any Barnes Mono will work great with that twist. I personally wouldn't use the 139 SST for anything but Coyotes. Way too explosive. It's basically a VMAX with a different name. The 150 Partition would shoot fine as well in a 7" Twist. If you have other magnums for elk and this will just be a deer rifle, then stick with an 8" twist and forget about the 160gr CX. That 160CX is truly a unicorn bullet. It's enormous. It's longer than the Barnes 168 LRX, the 175 ELDX, the 180 ELDM, and it's only .020" shorter than the Berger 195gr EOL. IT IS LONG! So, it needs tighter twist than all the bullets I mentioned above. As I said, 8" twist is the bare minimum. And at your elevation and cold temps, the 160 CX isn't fully stable, even in an 8" twist. It needs to be tighter.
@LittleCrowGunworks I've shot a ton of northern Michigan whitetails with sst bullets from 308,30-06,300win mag and even my favorite 6mm Remington. They have always performed will but I do wait for the right shot. I do like the Barnes ttsx and I will give them a try. Thanks for the great information, I really appreciate you sharing the knowledge. I have a few 300 win mags and 338 win mag & last but not least 338 lapua so I most like leave the 7rem.mag to whitetail ot Montana mule deer. My 30p win mag loves the 178gr eldx. I am a grain under max and consistently get 1/2 groups off a bench. So if I go elk I can be confident in that. Again thanks for your help.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thanks. I’ll stay tuned for that future video. I’m wanting a die set to optimize dimensional consistency from round to round. I won’t be competing, so I don’t need the best and most expensive dies.
I’m new to this and it’s cleared up a lot of questions, can’t thank you enough. I’m just loading for my 6.5x55 K95. Finding a modern load is impossible. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks very much for this series. This video is so full of information I'm going to definitely watch it at least one more time. I shoot and hunt with a 7x57 (modern action) and am planning to switch to monolithic bullets. Everyone says that they thrive on velocity, but it's generally hard to get from the standard loading manuals as the pressure is always kept so low. I am hoping that these tips will help me get better velocity and performance with 139 (and maybe 145 grain) bullets. Thanks again.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thank you for the reply! My M70s are Featherweights: 22 inch barrels. My M98s have 24 inch barrels. I live and hunt in Florida. Thanks again.
Make sure you have enough twist rate for the bullet you select. Also, this info isn't helpful unless you have a good chronograph. By good I mean, MagnetoSpeed, LabRadar, Garmin or Oehler 35P. Nothing else. That said, with N540, and those rifles, good brass, in good condition. Lapua would be optimal and a 145LRX or 139CX, I would stay below: M70 = 2860fps = 450yd Max Range with a 145LRX M98 = 2780fps = 400yd Max Range with a 145LRX The 139CX max range would be the same. Going faster than the 145 but lower BC, cancels each other out. Good luck.
@@LittleCrowGunworks This is incredibly helpful. I can't thank you enough. BTW, the chronograph is the new Garmin. I'm going to watch your series on the 22 Nosler, and am looking forward to the next episode in this 7mm series. Thanks again.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Unfortunately, Lapua doesn't make 7x57 brass. Do you have a recommendation? I have quite a bit of Federal, Winchester, Remington, Prvi, Hornady, and some Norma. Thanks.
Another great video tim. Thank you so much for taking the time to make this series. I had an accurate load worked up with my 22" .280 ackley using IMR7828SSC using 162 gr eld-x bullets and traveling at 2984 ft/sec, but now im interested to see what Gordon's Reloading Tool spits back about this load. Great information from these first 3 volumes of videos. Now i want to see if i can get a 150 gr CX load to shoot with my 1:9 barrel. I was going to use IMR7828SSC again, but i want to see what GRT says about the three 280 AI powders on "Tim's List". Thanks again!!!
Thanks Steve! I'll save you the trouble, that load is SPICY. Looks like over 70K psi and only 95.4% burn. That powder is too slow for the 280 unless you're using a 195 Berger and still at 70K. THEN it all burns.
@LittleCrowGunworks thanks for saving me the trouble. I will still sit down and run the powders through GRT. It's interesting that it came in at 70k psi. I guess that shows the importance of brass. I switched to Petersen brass from the books listed Nosler brass (my first loads). My 60.9 gr of of 7828 wasn't quite book max, but as you showed in this video, the books are relative and they used the thinner nosler brass. It makes sense my pressure was up, but I wouldn't have gone that high would I have known that it was 70k psi. I shot as high as book max of 61.5 gr too (with only 3015 ft/sec difference) with much larger group size. As I've said in another comment, I'm still making my way up that first hill on your chart and I'm soaking in as much as I can. I really like learning. I wonder how high I would have had to go to see pressure signs? Or does this kind of show how pressure signs on brass is a dangerous way of doing load development? Not quite sure. Like I said. I'm still learning and this series is excellent and I'm very grateful for the time you're putting into the planning, filming, and follow up of our questions. Thanks again!
I wouldn't say its flat out dangerous. But where you are at, you're drastically shortening the brass and barrel life. That amount of pressure is hard on stuff. You're basically taking the barrel life down close to a 7 PRC or 7 MAG level. For the same velocity as the 7 Mags, but WORSE brass life than the 7 Mags. So you have less recoil, the same velocity, worse brass life and slightly better barrel life than the 7 Mags. Using my powders, you should be down around 2875fps AT THE MAX. Faster than that is overpressure.
@@LittleCrowGunworksexcellent Thank you for the follow up. Was that 2875 with the 162 eld-x I was shooting or the 150 gr CX that I'm going to work up in its place?
Another awesome vid. I am glad you took the time to clear out a lot of "noise" by reviewing what powders are going to work best and what parameters should be important. Then you go to the nitty and the gritty. A ladder test. Find the plateau of stable velocity. Either with a chrono or, in the case of a well made rifle, hitting in the tight spot. I also get why you demonstrated on the PH 175 gr instead of the CX. Once you get in the numbers for the CX, it will be for rifles that you build, not off the shelf rifles where mileage may vary. So, that saves a lot of side discussion. I saw that Hornady podcast on the CX right after I watched your episode 2 of the 7 mm showdown. And yeah, I went back to refresh my memory and that is, if you can get into CX, do it. Even for whitetail hunting. My plan is to have my 7 PRC be my hunting rifle for anything up to elk. It doesn't have to be the fastest. I know the recent scuttlebutt over Hornady 7 PRC PH 175 gr shooting up to 200 fps slower than the box. First off, that is achieved with hand-built rifles under exacting conditions. As opposed to making something that will sit on a shelf and wind up in who knows what rifle. Like you said, the ultimate speed is not as important as having the bullet go where you want it to go. The other thing I have heard of is another youtuber, excellent at making clickbait titles, started a clean rifle with CX Outfitter and got nice groups. Then switched to the ELD-X and those were not as lovely. Switched back to the CX and those groups widened up. It was surmised that the fouling was causing the increased dispersion. Clean rifle completely to the metal. Then start with the CX again and the groups get better. Another person commented and said that he had not had dispersion changes in barrels that were "not that susceptible to copper fouling." Which would be a moot discussion if building a new rifle to only shoot copper monolithic rounds. But I don't know enough to tell how much of that youtube "experts" noise. Just like, the recent horror at Hornady 7 PRC 175 gr being not as fast. Well, the bullet came out in the fall of 2022. People are just now making a big deal about it? Noise. Powder availability or expense? Okay, that makes sense.
You're not looking for stable velocity. You're looking for stable impact location across charge weights and MOST of the time, the stable velocity ALSO happens to be at that point. So often times you get both. Exactly, demoing the 175 was the right choice. Consistent point of impact is first, if you can ALSO get high velocity, great! The CX aren't bad when it comes to fouling, but they are worse than lead core bullets. Relatively clean rifles shoot the CX's tight. I appreciate your thorough, well thought out comments.
Not for this project. If you're a competition shooter, it makes a small difference. But, for game animals out to 600yds, there is a GIGANTIC list of things that don't matter. Primer crush is on that list.
Thank you for the great content! Keep it coming TIm! Loading for the 7 PRC, ( love the 7 MAG), and have tried H1000 with good results, did not try it in Gordons Reloading to find out that it was not burning 100%, with 1/2 grain charge weight changes shooting in 1/2" group. Just loaded up some Staball HD and you are correct, not enough case plus it is a ball powder. Have some N560 I will try your recommendation for a good powder. Thank you again for the great Video! I am shooting out of a 26" Proof barrel:) No short barrels here.
Good Deal. Dale whacked his elk last year with that 160CX at 40yds with that 28 Nosler. He hit it in my little black box/ideal impact location. Busted both shoulders at the joint, left an inch and a quarter exit hole. The Bull dropped instantly, never got up.
@kenthall6584 In order to make the cut for this comparison series, it had to have "long range" factory ammo available. Which = No Wildcats or obscure cartridges.
Great video. Why is Magpro irrelevant? Because it's a ball powder? I was anticipating your GRT evaluation of it. I ran a lot of powders on GRT and chose Magpro as one of 4 powder choices (RL26 was out of the question). I find Magpro lagging just behind N565 in my 22" 7 PRC with Nosler ABLRs at ~2900fps with 70gr., and I haven't maxxed it out. 69.7gr of N565 gives me ~2925fps and single-digit ES.
Thank you. It's a ball powder and there are better choices, as you just pointed out. I would take N565 100 out of 100 times over Magpro. It's not JUST about velocity. It's all factors. Can Magpro be made to work, sure. But if you haven't purchased powder yet, there are better choices in my opinion. It's also not JUST about peak velocity, as I mentioned. If it doesn't consistently shoot well at that velocity, it doesn't mean anything. I wanted to use N565 for the 7 Rem and 7 PRC, but with the lighter 160gr bullet, it was a touch too slow for the PRC.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I'm not a speed chaser, but when the groups close up I'm good with it. As you mentioned, one has to really step on ball powders to get there. I have a stock of different powders, as I've been handloading for 40 years. Never had RL26, LOL! I'm getting as good a group out of Magpro as N165, 7828ssc and N565. H1000 was underwhelming, and RL25 rocked (temp instable though). But my measured input into GRT gives me a good idea of my pressures. I've also ran Staball HD at 71.1gr with good results with the 175 ELD-X, which was last season's successful elk load. I ran 160-162gr copper solids with 4831sc, 7828ssc and N165 with decent results too. N560 would shine with those weights (I don't have). I have my own 800yd range, and my neighbor has a 1200yd range, and I shoot all year long at my leisure (when I'm not haying). 50fps to me is no big deal, but it increases hit proficiency, as you note. I hope people tuned into your entire video. One can't grasp the load development process with short attention span theater.
Tim, thanks as always for the deep-dive - I always start off watching one of your videos and hammering out a knee-jerk question, and by the time I'm about halfway through, I'm deleting the comment/question as you cover the topic. I've been playing around with Gordon's since about the second video, learned the hard-but-luckily-safe way about the burnt propellant value, and have dug a little deeper because of it. I've even taken the time to model as best I can the .284 160 CX (as Hornady isn't giving the boattail's dimensions) for my theorycrafted 280AI loads. My caliper-measured bullet length is, unrounded (1.6118), within 2thou of JBM's listed length (1.612), but I'd be curious to see what numbers you came up with for the L, A, and B measurements on the boat tail - Or if you just used the numbers Gordon's has listed for the ELD family. Next line of questioning - Do you find a significant-for-most-people benefit, with non-magnums, for barrels over 26", or do you find that (with a 280AI, for example) above 26" you're not getting any significant value? As an aside, for any of my questions you'd like to answer, but don't feel like they add to the topic at hand for most folks, please feel free to just throw a PM at me with it; I don't want to be eating up time better used for other information
You're welcome. Like I said, give me some space and see where I go and ask at the end if I missed it. I'm not sure what lot of CX you have, but what I have is: 1.626" Long L = .224 A = .2835 B = .238 You get significant value for any cartridge to have a longer barrel. But it's not linear and it scales depending on how overbore a cartridge. For example, your 280AI combo with an optimal powder, going from 26" to 28" will only net about 23fps/inch. Because the 280AI is a well balanced cartridge. Where my 257 WBY load will gain 36fps/inch because it is so overbore. Where a 308 Winchester with a heavy bullet it's down to 18fps/inch, because that cartridge is "underbore"...if that's a thing. But if were talking the same cartridge scenarios between 22 to 24" barrels the losses are: 308 = 23fps/inch (was 18) 280AI = 29.5fps/inch (was 23) 257 WBY = 46.5fps/inch (was 36) So you see how the bigger the cartridge is, the more the barrel length matters. And the shorter you go, the more you lose. It's NOT linear. It's parabolic. That's why, when I see short barreled magnums, I instantly shake my head. You're giving up so much performance to save a few inches and a few ounces. It's a stupid trade off. You can't just say, oh, you only lose 25fps/inch. That will only be reality under very specific circumstances. Like say taking your 280AI from 30 inches to 22 inches. The AVERAGE would be 25fps/inch. But it will NEVER be linear. Great questions
@@LittleCrowGunworks Tim, are you going to touch on pressure signs? [edit] Specifically, what you look for - I've found a breakdown on pressure signs from Primal Rights, and it's just as enlightening as everything you've done and shared with us. As an aside, for anyone else reading, I can concur with what Tim said about Ramshot Hunter - I have a pound from another load on another rifle, and figured I'd try it for science, and because GRT suggests that it should be my best velocity maker. It's not - Every load of Ramshot was almost exactly 120fps short of what GRT indicated. Every single one, and - for my rifle (26" barrel Browning Xbolt) not one node I would choose to use, even if it was getting the required velocities.
I might. But I don't want to encourage everyone to do exactly what I do. Many people aren't perceptive enough to notice the pressure signs I'm looking for. It's a high risk, zero reward conversation for us. Stay off the ball powders. I done told ya already. LOL You don't even have to tell me the details, I already know that every extruded powder you tested, shot smaller than the ball powder.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I know, I know - But I put those together before I was able to get hold of the 55-seris, and the 4350, and I've never been one to just accept as gospel something I can [safely] test myself. I'll be holding that hunter back if I ever need to fire form, or for smaller rounds.
That's a great philosophy. Don't trust some guy on the internet with only 2500 subscribers. What does he know? Go test it! Did you find any sweet spots to go shoot 5 of?
I can’t thank you enough for these videos. My 7prc loves the factory ELD-M ammo but sadly didn’t like the factory 160gr CX ammo. The ELD-M’s were shooting 200fps slower out of my 24” barrel than the box velocity. This makes me want to reload my own ammo!
Thank you for coming along. If you're not a handloader, try out the Federal ammo for your 7 PRC. That Terminal Ascent is a great bullet and I'm hearing favorable things about the velocity and precision of their ammo.
Hey Tim, the Badlands Precision Super Bulldozer 2 7mm 160 gr. has a G1 BC of .690 while the 160 gr. CX from Hornady has a G1 BC of .596 I know they aren’t a major bullet manufacturer, but they are great.
Refreshing that someone else appreciates a 24-26" barrel vs the current trend of 18-20" stubs. I have also found IMR-7828 to be fantastic in various 7mms.
Unfortunately I was stuck with 22in barrel for my 7prc I wanted 26 but what I was looking for and everything they only had it in 22 in so we will see how she performs still waiting on the pic rail that fits it and 8-40 screws ughh
Watched it again. I'm slowly doing load development for a new 7x300 win mag. Pick 8 twist, think its to fast. 175 SGK 7828 @ 3080 first firing Peterson long brass full prep.
One statement you made, in a previous video, that surprised me quite a lot was that Partions don’t exit. I thought they did. 😢, I’ll be ok. I really like the “insurance” type mindset.
Never had one that didnt exit for me in 6mm rem on whitetails. Killed several with the 100 grain all under 100 yrds. Cant say how they do at other ranges or on bigger game
At last, a tool (Gordon's) and a load work up strategy that makes sense to me. I started reloading a little about 10 years ago, but felt like I had more questions than answers reading multiple manuals, watching videos, asking friends. I haven't done any reloading in a few years because haven't had an opportunity to set up a spot for my bench. (moved a few times). I need to make ammo for my 257 Roberts because there is only 1 factory load left and I'm not a fan, and ran out the other ammo I had left.
Good vid, I enjoyed it. I've been using GRT for some years now & won't even imagine starting load development without running through all the variables I put through GRT. It's great to finally see the likes of you guys using GRT. I must say though that I found a couple things a little strange. Although I'll admit I haven't run through your GRT data yet, I'm bamboozled how your GRT showed barrel burnout after muzzle with AR 2209/H4350 with, Alliant reloader 23/22 with burnout prior to to muzzle. That's got me fucked actually. I notice you've got the "bullet jump still locked which, can be an important factor &, temp can make quite a difference depending on powder type as well as case volume & ultimately the "K" & "Ba" of your powder batch after adding in the real world velocities which, take into account the slight differences in batch burn characteristics. Although I must agree with you about most of what you mentioned, I have to say that, in some circumstances, there can be some significant differences in pressure & velocity listings by GRT until, the real world velocities are listed for the program & the "K" & "Ba" has been corrected. As for the listed velocities in the reloading manual, I'll admit that I've measured many reasonably serious discrepancies since utilizing GRT with regard to listed velocities however, I think it's worth reminding you & others that the testing barrels & chambers are machined to SAAMI or CIP minimums for the specific purpose of ensuring a "worst case scenario. In addition, the listed velocities are listed in 100 ft/sec increments which, I've always taken as meaning that, for example; 2900 could mean that the average velocity was actually 2870 ft/sec or, 2900 could have represented an average of 2940 ft/sec. This makes perfect sense to me due to the differences in velocity betwixt all the rifles, barrels, chambers & etc in the world. Again, great vid & I reckon you're worth taking seriously using GRT which, for me, has been mostly so close to reality that, I now trust & rely on GRT explicitly.
Great comment. It was AR2213SC that didn't all burn. Not 2209. I am aware that the test chambers and bore are to minimum spec. Thanks for coming along.
Great video!! Thank you for answering my question regarding CX over Barnes, it absolutely makes sense. Also I cannot agree more regarding suppressors. If I’m adding six inches to my gun I want barrel and speed!
Can you stabilize a 160 CX bullet with a 1:9 twist in my 7 Rem Mag? I wouldn't think so but you are the expert. Love this video series! And I have loved my 7 Rem Mag 24 1/2 inch barrel for many many years and many trips out west and old Mexico .
Great question. No, it's way too long for a 9 twist to achieve full stability. The 150gr CX going between 3200 - 3260fps is a fantastic option for you. Or the 168gr Nosler Long Range Accubond around 3100fps. If you can find them. (Queue the eye roll)
@@LittleCrowGunworks Help me understand...when you speak of the 7 RM along side the 7 PRC IN THIS VIDEO you are talking about a custom chamber with a longer throat to seat that 160 CX further out than a Sammi spec chamber? I am in the process now of catching up on Part 1 and Part 2. I was fired up last year when you outlined this project and I'm going to catch up. Thanks for the great videos sir! Yes, I'm 70 years old and referring to you as "sir"...out of respect for your experience. Ha
Thank you for that! Neither is throated out. We decided against throating out the 7 Rem Mag or anything else. That said, the 7 Rem STILL has more effective combustion space than the 7 PRC.
Imr 7828ssc is a great powder but in my 7prc as it shot tight groups but much slower velocities over 200fps slower! Iam wanting to try vihtavuori powders
If it shot 200fps slower than ANYTHING else, you're drastically underloading it. The list of powders that will produce even 50fps over 7828 at the same pressure is VERY short.
I run 7828 in 257 Wby and yes they lie about velocity in the books. I'm not pushing it hard but 115 Nosler BT with 69.0 and getting 3,350 ish fps but had a mishap with the chronograph, so not 100% confident in velocity but I shot a mix of 115-117 bullets and they all shot well enough for a 300 yard hunter.
Hi Tim, First of all I’d like to thank you for sharing this. I have a question pertaining to your list of powders. Where on your list would you put 6.5 Creedmoor and also 6.5 PRC?
Thanks Tim! I have been wanting to try some VV powders as the prices for Hodgdon has gotten ridiculous. Crazy that VV is now the less expensive option.
Tim, How do you add a powder to GRT? N150 is not listed at least on my program. If you can’t add, then is there a trick maybe to mimic a powder that isn’t listed? Like N150
You start with a different powder, like N140 and then change all the properties to that of N150. Once you change all the properties to that of N150, attempt to change the powder to something else, it will ask you if you want to save what you have to your DB, say yes and change the name to N150. Here are the inputs in order, top to bottom for N150: 3790 k/kg 1.2214 0.5814 1.1286 0.4697 0.8169 98.64 lb/ft3 55.56 lb/ft3
@@LittleCrowGunworks Have a Bergara B 14 Ridge on order in 7 PRC. Unfortunately only has a 22 inch barrel. Will certainly try VV N 560 with a 175 grain. Powder wasn’t even on my radar until watching this episode . Thanks again look forward to the range
This series has been great. I've never used any Vihtavuori powders, guess Im going to have to give them a try. I've been loading H1000 in my 22" 7mmprc with 175 ABLR's.
Great video! I’m in the process of developing a load for my 270 wsm and I noticed you stated you like IMR 7828 powder. Would you recommend that specific powder for a 270 wsm with a 23” barrel?
@@LittleCrowGunworks I'm starting episode #5, so far Tim, you have been able to get me to change my mind on some issues, I've struggled with for 30+ years . #1. I shoot mostly old hunting guns, I have a few customs, but barrel length have me over a barrel.. anyhoo, you keep this up, and I will call John Bareness and tell him I found someone with more thorough information..
Thank You. I know there is a lot of time/money/effort involved in the process of cranking out these videos. There are those of us out there that really appreciate the help.
Thank you David. I'm happy it's appreciated and being received well and that it is in fact helpful.
Another very informative video. I’m loving them. Cheers!
I have learned more from this 1 video than I have in the thousands of other videos I’ve watched over the years. This is pure gold.
Thank you professor Tim.
Wow, thank you!
Couldn't be happier stumbling on to your channel. I'm retired and work in a gun shop that's been around for 72yrs, and I've never heard it broken down like this. With an understanding of why things happen, it gives the ability to find a solution. No one is doing this, as far as i know. Thank you, for sharing your experience.
Thank you for that Mark. When Dale and I talk about this series, our conversations echo what you just said. "There is NOBODY putting out information like this."
As I've mentioned to you before, I'm trying to set a new standard for how things are done. Get these lazy ass, surface level TH-camrs off their ass or they're gonna get left behind.
Thank you for being a loyal supporter.
The time and blunders you’re saving us FNG’s is invaluable! Thank you for your efforts. My 12 year old and I both shoot 7PRC and I just got us set up with our first press and listen to reloading video after video while driving truck 600+ miles a day, really I can’t thank you enough!
Thank you for the awesome compliment. I'm happy that so many people are finding value in this series. There is something for everyone here.
Gordons Reloading Tool is awesome. Calculated velocity on my 20“ 30-06 with the 200 grain ELD-X was 2550 ft/s. Just had the Garmin out, average velocity was 2551.1 ft/s
Key is taking all your measurements, especially to liter out the cases. My Starline is way lower than the SAAMI H2O
Okay, i lowered my estimation of where i am on the Dunning Kruger chart. My load development process is admittedly in need of improvement and this video gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for taking the time to explain your methods.
LOL, like I mentioned, my goal is to get where you actually are and where you THINK you are, to be the same place. For better or worse.
These videos are absolute gold. I've been reloading for the 7RM my entire life and you're confirming everything I've learned and taking it to another level. Can't thank you enough for sharing.
I'm happy you think so. We're trying to do something that nobody else is doing. It seems like we're getting there. Thank you for your support.
Amen
I downloaded GRT because of this video. Thank you for your time and effort on this topic of load development! Interested in working in some new power/bullet combos to see how they work out
Thank you for contributing! I'm glad to help you along your journey.
So much Gold in this video! Thank you for teaching us! I don't get the craze for getting a magnum rifle and neutering it with a short barrel.
Staball HD sucks... I found that out the hard way. I get crazy velocities with Ramshot LRT... but the accuracy sucked.
Lastly thank you for exposing the biased load data
The Western Powders .pdf load manual is the closest I've seen to honest.
Thanks man, I'm glad you appreciate what I'm doing. I see you over there working your ass off too, trying to help however you can.
Right. LRT is fast, if you're cool with highly compressed loads. It shot ok in my 7 Rem Mag but the 257 Roy was an epic dumpster fire.
Happy to do it man, somebody has to talk about it and stop glorifying these manuals.
I think you actually changed my life on this one. Thank you!
HA HA HA! I love it! That's fantastic! Thank you for joining us with an open mind.
Thank you for all the work and experience that you are sharing with the shooting community.
You're welcome. It's clearly being appreciated so, it will continue. Thanks for the support.
You are what you call a professor, the education I am getting free is unbelievable. I am so focused that I lose track of time.
Thank you for that Paul. We're doing the best job we can.
Ive been reloading for about 8
years. Chasing rabbits through the weeds with my load development and had success at a great cost in powder and bullets. I wish I knew then from your videos what I have learned. THANK YOU
KEEP THE INFO COMING
That's part of why we're doing this series. Lots of bad info out there.
Another informative video, with your no nonsense experience 'data'! Delivered with satire, knowledge and wit. I picture trolls and keyboard warriors losing their shit watching this...makes me smile. Thanks!
Great info. The barrel length data is interesting. I was wondering if adding a suppresser increase muzzle velocity and if the length of the suppressor matters?
In my very limited experience, a suppressor will add the equivalent of 1 or 2 inches of barrel length. I don't think the suppressor length matters.
Thanks for this greatly needed information. You've saved a lot of time and money for many of us by publishing this. One question: I'm a 270 win reloader. I realize from a comment you made that you aren't loading 270 win. If you were, would you add any additional powders to your short list?
Thank you for the positive feedback.
No, I wouldn't.
For 24" Barrels
130gr Class Bullets = N555 or N160
150gr Class Bullets = N555 or N160
170gr Class Bullets = N555 or N160 or N560 if you want to lean on it.
I have been loving this series, finding it hard to wait for the entire thing to come out, I’ve been reloading for 20 years at… after watching this, a very amateur level! I downloaded the Gordon’s reloading tool after watching and have been completely immersed.
Prior to discovering this series I replaced my old 7mm rem with a new lighter version (same caliber 7mm rem mag) and decided to go mono (150 ttsx) for this rifle. H4831 gave by far the best accuracy and ended at a velocity I was aiming for, 3139 fps with a 24.3” barrel. Do you think I have landed in the appropriate velocity range? My numbers in the tool look like I’m pushing it on pressure but no tell tale signs on the brass.
Thanks for the great content, and a wealth of knowledge!
Thank you for the support. Glad I can save you some time, money and effort.
Yeah, that's a little spicy. Signs on the brass isn't always at the same pressure. as it depends on brand and hardness. If you aren't having any brass or function issues and the brass is lasting more than 3 firings, you're probably ok.
Thank you!! I've never reloaded but the depth of knowledge you're sharing reveals to me just how much I'm going to enjoy the journey!
You're Welcome! It's not all sunshine and roses. In my opinion, what I'm discussing in this video is the easiest part of handloading. Getting good equipment and getting the brass sized consistently is the hardest/most important part.
This was unbelievably helpful and informative. Thank you!! Any chance you would show how you measure case capacity for input into GRT? Would love to see that. Thanks again for the content
Thanks Steven.
I will get around to that at some point.
I might have missed this but Do you use a chronograph to look for relatively consistent velocity when doing your ladder test or do you base your ladder test simply on consistent hits on paper?
If you stick to the powders on my list, when you find the charge weights with consistent point of impact, the velocity will be consistent at that place as well. Focus on point of impact location and velocity consistency will follow.
Thank you Docto, it doesn't hurts...
Whe you are smashed with facts. I've been told so many times, about smoke... But your work is a jewel. For all of un. Bravo!!!! As in Mexico said. God will give you a lot more.
Thank you for your support!
After watching and looking at both lists of powder (viable and Tim's), IF you had to choose 1 based on what is available, imr 4350 or h4831 for a 7mm rem mag? As always, much thanks to time and work that you do for all of us shooters!
Thank you for the support Brian! H4831 is way more appropriate for the 7 Mag. IMR 4350 could be made to work, but it's too fast to be optimal.
New to reloading and what a great video. Thanks for all your time and giving up your knowledge 😊
Thanks for sticking around to hear it.
Great video…I have been hand loading for 45+ years and somehow had never heard of Gordon’s…
I am really looking forward to the rest of the series…thanks for taking the time to put these together.
You're welcome sir! Happy to help.
Been reloading over 20 and I never have either. Mind blown!
Excellent information. Thank you for the no BS style in sharing your experience and knowledge. Question…were the 8 - 10 shot ladders shot at 100 yards?
Thank you! Yes, all testing is at 100yds. Farther than that you are just adding noise. Wind and human error dispersion.
Great series man,
can you recommend a powder for us people stuck with a 22” 7 PRC ?
Thank you! I would say N555, N560 are the best choices. Everything else is either too fast, too slow or has too low of a fill ratio. Short barreled magnums are problem children.
Tim, thank you for sharing your time, experience, and thoroughness!! As a new handloader, this content has greatly reduced the learning curve!
Glad to hear it. That was my goal, to get you guys to stop wasting so much time and money on load development. Get something consistent, it doesn't have to be the best. Just consistent, and then get out and shoot.
This is turning into the Yellowstone series for me. Can’t wait for the next set of videos to come out. I check in every day.
HA HA HA! That's awesome. Just hit that subscribe button. I'm filming today so, should have the next one out soon.
Very good and educational. Don’t have to think too much in concluding most of the material presented makes sense. I have to adjust my thinking process about powder selection. I have an ample supply of RL23 and 26 for my Ackley that produce great results but I have some H4350 I can test with my .280AI. Thanks Tim for another great episode of the series.
Thanks John! Now you have me curious about what material I presented DOESN'T make sense??? HA! Thank you for the support.
A very important point you made in this video, which I see some not ranking at the top of the order of hierarchy, is high load density and complete powder burn. Those are the keys to load consistency. If one doesn't begin there, one unnecessarily complicates the rest of the process.
Great point. I don't see anyone else commenting on that specifically. It's important.
Very well-done, thank you! I have been reloading & shooting long range for a few years, believe I have some nice shooting, customed barreled rifles but I learn new shit from every one of your videos.
Thanks Alan! I'm doing my best to weed through the BS for you guys and get some useful information out there. I'm glad I could teach ya a thing or two.
Thanks once again. I spent hours of my childhood going over ballistics and reading data in reloading books.
One thing I soon found out, was that none of them agreed on velocities or max charge weight.
It was pretty entertaining one day though when a kinda cousin came over and we pulled out the chronograph.
My 300win was shooting in the 3,150 range with my loads, and his was around 2,800 with his loads.
My biggest takeaway from this episode was making sure to use a powder that has 100% burn weight.
I remember the days when the wsm's came out. One of the biggest brags was that you could get the shot fat case, you could get the same velocity out of a short barrel, and less recoil.
Very few were interested in hearing my dissenting opinions.
Thanks for the info.
HA! I have NOTHING BUT dissenting opinions on that subject! Thanks for watching.
I use quickload software to get some idea of some loads but i find software to be only a rough tool, not to be relied upon as gospel. Most of the powder combos ive tried at my cartridge loaded dimensions and capacity, have not totally lined up with predictions. As instructed by the tool, adjust burn rate to match your velocity reading to”tune” the tool to your gun combo and it works pretty good, just dont necessarily trust the default values. I may check my data on the GRT to see how it compares
I completely agree. It's a great tool to get an idea on where to start. Shoot a little, calibrate the tool, load your final ladder and go test it with confidence. It's a hell of a lot better than fumbling through loading manuals and hoping for the best.
Very interesting, I really like the powder information. I didn’t know that about ball powder. Most of mine that I have on the shelf is extruded. I have a couple questions.
1. I see you left N170 off your list and chose N570. Is that because it’s double base with the nitroglycerin? More velocity as a result? And if so, and if you have used both of them, have you found one to be more temperature stable than the other? The reason I ask is because Bryan Litz at applied ballistics states The 170 is more stable than 570 because it’s the nitroglycerin in the powder of the double base powders that make it temperature sensitive. Have you found that to be true? I have both but have not used the 570 yet.
2. I have to ask this because you kinda challenged us and I want to see what your response is. I have a 300 PRC, 26 inch barrel, shooting the 190 CX bullet. What are the top three powders? 😊
Same question with my 26” 300prc and 190 CX
Hey Ed, there is nothing wrong with N170. That area of burn rate is already very saturated on my list of 15 powders. So I eliminated it to keep the list shorter. Not because N170 is flawed. Yes 570 will be considerably faster, provided you have a big enough case to use 570. Which is a tall order in and of itself.
The 7 PRC with a 160CX is a scaled down version of the 300 PRC with a 190 CX. So... drumroll... USE THE EXACT SAME POWDERS! For the exact same reasons. There are no better choices for the 300 PRC and 190gr CX than what we are testing in the 7 PRC.
Lmao, “not discontinued at my house”. I nearly lost my coffee mate!!!
LOL, That's the way it is brother. When you find good stuff, you buy a lot of it!
@@LittleCrowGunworks I hear that and practice that same mentality. Great video, no fluff, facts!
how much time do you wait between shots when doing ladder diagram? Do you use new or fire formed brass? Thanks
I wait 2 minutes between shots and use a chamber chiller.
Fire-formed is best. Use the first firing on the brass to "break in" the barrel.
Best episode of this series to date!! Appreciate you investing in us!
Hey alright! Progress! I'm glad I'm not letting you guys down.
@@LittleCrowGunworks would you consider making the raw cartridge data available for the Gordon’s software? Downloaded today and 7 PRC isn’t available for obvious reasons. It may make things easier for the novice following along.
I explained how to achieve it in the video. Watch the beginning of that Gordons portion again. I walk you through step by step. I went fast, but it's all there.
@@LittleCrowGunworks got it…… did see that. was hoping for an export easy button for the novice. TYVM! looking forward to the next vid.
I appreciate this instruction very much, thank you. Very interesting on the load development process. I will be implementing this for sure. I never knew barrel length effected the burn. Another valuable lesson learned here.
Thanks John. I'm excited for you guys to see the whole process. It's going to blow a lot of peoples hair back.
Thank you for these videos they are very informative. I'm a little confused on simply changing the internal volume and overall length of the 7 mag for GRT. Won't you also need to slightly tweak the case diameter because the prc is slightly larger, or does shape not affect the presure only overall volume.
You're welcome. Technically yes, it will be more accurate if you have all the correct case dimensions. But it won't be different enough to include or exclude certain powders from viability.
I don't want you guys getting lost in the weeds. Or not using the tool just because the 7 PRC isn't in the database. If you can add the 7 PRC and do it correctly, go for it. But if you can't the much quicker and dirtier way is to modify something that's close.
At the end of the day, the GRT projections don't matter as soon as the first shot is fired. Reality trumps projections.
GRT is just a great tool to figure out approximately where you should be and what powders are viable. Nothing more. You don't get a gold star if your projection perfectly matches reality.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thanks. I understand what you are saying. How does crimping affect things
Not sure. I don't crimp anything. I would imagine it adds inconsistency more than anything.
Timing on this is perfect. My OCD thanks you. Such great information, I learned a lot. . . . . Gordons here I come, thank you!
That's great Shawn! I just hit the wavetops so I'm happy it was helpful. I could spend a hundred hours on this subject, so I'm glad one and a half was beneficial.
@@LittleCrowGunworks have to stop by your shop someday, but I’m afraid I would take up too much of your time😂
LRT is good for the big overbore stuff and i like it in 28 nosler. Its not compressed. I dont find it dirty. It shoots the berger 195’s well for me so far. Did take a while to find a load to shoot the 180 hybrids but i was very picky and i played too much with chasing ultimate velocity where it just wasnt happy. Its still cooking at the lower node 3260’s fps.
Ramshot powder burns really clean. But most ball powders don't. I'm glad someone is finding a use for LRT. It was a dumpster fire in the two cartridges I tried it in.
Thanks again Tim for the great content and more things to research for myself. After some issues getting Gordon's to load, what a great tool!!! THANK YOU!!
Good deal Chuck. Let the time and money savings begin!
Thanks so much for the info. I am loading for 6.5 PRC. I downloaded the tool and found that I dont get 100% burn rate for the powder I was about to test for the 127gr LRX. This info will save me lots of time in my quest for the smallest groups that I can find. I will try the CX next. I already bought the LRX.
Glad I could help! Let the savings begin!
Ive just found you. Preach, brother! I've been reloading for almost 10 years, but I'm still not super experienced but learned about Gordons. Shot the mile with my .308 this past weekend. I know thats not what its made for but bullshit! Loading 178 eld match @ 2700 fps books at like 2400. Ridiculous man.
Thanks for coming along! I'm running 175's at 2775 in my .308 too.
Excellent content! Took me most of the afternoon to get through it, but I got it done. I'm just getting started with reloading and thrilled I came across your channel. When you are doing the initial shots looking for pressure and such, what distance are you shooting at? I apologize if you mentioned it and I just didn't catch it. It seems to me that longer distances would be more useful for plotting stable charge weights, but can it be done at say 100yds?
Thank you for that. I'm glad you found us.
Great question. Naturally you will find out in the next video but, yes, 100yds. You can do it at 200yds, if and only if you are experienced doing this sort of test and if you have a gun that shoots very small. But otherwise all the added distance does is introduce noise that you won't be able to sift through.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thank you, I'm looking forward to the next episode.
Happy to help, see ya on the next one.
Hey Tim, wondering if you could do a separate video on the 7-300NI? That is a cartridge I’d love to learn more about!
Not sure if it warrants an entire video but I can talk about it a little more when we have all the loads finished and bring it in as an extreme high end comparison.
We can make you a 7-300NI but, start apologizing to your wallet now... You either need to burn almost half your barrel life, just to fireform 100pcs of brass. Or buy it from me for like $8/piece. And you'll be buying barrels 2 at a time because it has about a 300 round barrel life.
Remember what I said about top fuel dragsters.
I have learned so much from these 3 videos so far keep up the great work! I am newer to reloading and have been trying to get a load with my 6.8 western to shoot good for deer and have not been able to find an accurate load. I am using 170 grain nosler ballistic tips due to that being all i could find. Could you recommend a powder for me to try in my 24 inch gun?
Thank you!
I answered this awhile ago, but it didn't post. Not sure why.
Same powders as the 7 Rem and 7 PRC. If you wanted to start with one, make it H4831SC. You probably won't need a second option.
Grand is a great powder from my chrono but I did find pressure with it but from my understanding retumbo doesn’t do well in short mags staball hd wasn’t worth a crap. But grand sure produce the best results in my rifle
Great series keep it up
Thanks for coming along. Depends on the Chrono. They're not all created equal. Retumbo is too slow for ANY short mag. So is HD.
I wanted to make Staball HD work in my 7mm prc because it was available at my local store. The velocity I was getting was close to predicted but the groups were 2+ MOA. Thanks for giving me an excuse to stop messing with it.
Not a problem!
Wow, so simple yet complicated. Learned more in 90 minutes. I like your style, not affraid to speak from experience even though its going to ruffle some. Thanks for the instruction on Gordons. I've had the download I could enter all the databut didn't know how to use all the fields. subcribed
You're welcome! Thank you for coming along on the adventure and for putting up with me for long enough to get something out of it.
I didn't have anyone to show me the shortcuts. I had to earn them. And by the time I did, I wished I had someone to show me the shortcuts. So I'm trying to offer this for those that are frustrated and sick of wasting resources. If it pisses someone off in the process because I bad mouthed their "sacred cow"; too bad.
This is fascinating. It makes sense to me that burning 100% of powder X in cartridge Y benefits accuracy but few if any others talk about that. The phenomenon of bigger powder charge => higher pressure => greater burn percentage was a surprise. I assume that you are going to talk about case fill % later. It makes sense that’s important but I don’t know what the optimal range is or if it varies by cartridge or by powder. (I hand load for pistol cartridges and those rarely come anywhere near filling the case.)
Is Gordon’s the only ballistic software that calculates both burn percentage and fill %?
Your discussion of the conflicts of interest in published load data was eye opening. I have enough experience to have wondered about that more than once based on results over a chronograph. I gradually concluded that it was best to treat data from the bullet manufacturer as my primary source, with the powder manufacturer as backup/confirmation. That was just based on experience. However, if a corporation only makes bullets, it is in their best interest to provide the best data possible regardless of what powder is shown. Hodgdon? Their data wanders a LOT over time and you just showed us 3 examples of hocus pocus there. Hornady makes bullets but also has an interest in some powders, such as LeveRevolution which always shows 100-200 fps faster than other powders. I hadn’t questioned before that but now you’ve got me wondering. (I love lever action rifles, especially .30-30 and .45-70.)
All published data is no more than a reference. Treat it accordingly. I like to see a fill ratio north of 92% but under 103%. That means you are getting everything you can out of that cartridge. You're not using powders that are too slow or too fast.
But powders are not universally viable. Some powders hit max pressure at say 96% fill, which sounds perfect but, you look at burnt propellant and it's STILL under 100%. That means that powder is very slow and very dense. Which is a great combination for speed, but you need enough barrel length to get the most out of it. That is why software like this is so important. Because if you look at a relative burn rate chart like I showed. It's so generic, it makes things appear linear and it's not.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I greatly appreciate the effort you put into your content here. 👍
Great video thanks to your video I started loading my 308 with n540 and it shoots better than ever thanks and I use and Like your trimmer
BAM! LOL
Just like that, your 308 shoots better. We appreciate your support.
I have been using Retumbo and Staball HD with 160 CX bullets in the 7mm PRC.
Too slow of powder? Been hitting pressure pretty quickly on Staball HD.
Absolutely. The powders I'm using are the sweet spot. RL26 would be great too if you have it already.
The other part of that is the Hornady Data and Hodgdon data varies by several grains. I have been able to push the retumbo much harder than Hornady data, but NOT true with Staball
That is EXACTLY my point about published load data. My test data with our three powders parallel yours. Some of Hornady's charge weights are near the max that I found and some are WAY off.
Primers, brass, powder lots, bullet lots, barrel specs, etc. All of that stuff gets a say in the final pressure. It's just a reference.
The trouble with the Retumbo and a 160 is no matter how hard you push it, it's not all burning. It's too slow. That's why I didn't choose it. I have 17lbs of it and Dale has another 10. It's not like we couldn't use it. I love Retumbo, it's too slow for that case and bullet.
Just want to say thanks again for the great content. I’ve been trying to spread the word about your channel because it’s got some of the best content there is and is said in a way that’s easy to understand. Looking forward to seeing how all the testing shakes out. Been trying to decide between the 7 RM, 7 PRC, and 300 WM for my new elk gun.
We sure appreciate that. We want this info spread far and wide!
The 7 RM has more case capacity than the 7 PRC, but will have the bullet seated in the powder and only has a SAAMI max pressure of 61,000 compared to 65,000 in the 7 PRC. I’m frankly new to all this, but wouldn’t the lower max pressure further reduce how many grains of powder can be used and put these both pretty close to equal as far as usable case capacity?
The SAAMI max pressure has to do with the average maximum pressure the available actions at the time could handle. It has nothing to do with what the brass can handle.
If you have a modern/new 7 Rem Mag and a new 7 PRC, and Peterson Brass for each, you can safely run them to the same pressure.
Solid info. Thanks Tim.
Now… to get that GRT loaded up and start learning.
Thanks Jason. Get it done. It's incredibly useful.
The sound of your wife opening the door made me think someone was breaking into my house 😂
That'll get your heart going at 1 in the morning.
@@AussieInCA11 🤣🤣🤣
Hello,
I know in your past video you identified the range of powders a guy could use for the rest of his life and be very satisfied.
That said, and I know this is a 7mm series, but I have a .270 Win. Does the list you shared also apply to the .270? And, if so, which would be the preferred place to start?
Thanks in advance and…I’m really enjoying the 7mm series.
It does apply, but it depends on bullet weight and barrel length as to what powder would be best.
@@LittleCrowGunworks…understood.
I run mostly 24 and 26 inch barrels but I do have 20 inch barrels on a couple small caliber guns that I have no intention of getting optimal loads on.
I’m not yet a reloaded but I will be in the future. As you know, factory loading aren’t always optimized and your latest tutorial confirmed my suspicion.
I appreciate your response…the list you provided will prevent me, a newbie, from buying a bunch of crap I don’t need.
Thanks again.
This is so cool!
I’m looking forward to learning how fast the 7 PRC with the longest COAL can push 160 CX w/a 26 to 28 inch barrel.
Looks like 3060-ish for a 26" with these powders. I think we could get more with N565, but I'm not sure if we will be testing that later.
Such a shame that Gordon is not with us anymore. He did such a great job with this software! There is an option in Gordon’s for powder selection as well
I agree. Sure, there are over 100 powders in the database. No options for primers though.
When you measure the case compacity, do you fill the all the way to the top or to the neck shoulder junction?
@jameswray4151 good question. To the top and then cut it off flush at the top with a razor blade.
I believe it has already. I was starting to work a paper and steel load for my 300 win. 168 tips, I was going to try the classic powders, H4831SC, H1000 etc. Ran the program and found they are too slow in that weight. Starting with n160 and h4350. Thank you
Good stuff. You're saving time and money already.
Imr 4350 72 gr 168 gr ,7828ssc 72 gr 200 eld x my fav 300 wm loads .
Love the series, I was just about to load a few rounds of 7RM and I have adjusted my powder options. Instead, I will try your 10 shot method w the powder that I do have. Then will determine if I need to search out the other 2. Great info. Now to download Gordon’s RT to find optimum powders for my other rifles.
To clarify a little. It's only 10 shots if you REALLY know your charge weight range. You need to load high enough to find the max, so you know where to stay the hell away from.
Yes, get Gordons, it's a must if you're serious about this stuff.
I'm in the middle of putting together a 7rem mag. Trying to choose the right rate of twist has slowed me down. I like the CX bullet so I'm guessing I need to shoot a 1:8 rate of twist?
With twist, you need to be careful. For the 160gr CX, an 8" twist is ENOUGH for warmer climates or higher elevations (with any temp).
But if you're going to shoot big mono's exclusively, a 7.5 or 7" twist would be better. ESPECIALLY if you hunt in the cold at low elevations.
The trouble is, if you go all the way to a 7" twist, then you are "stuck" with monos or HEAVY lead core bullets. If you try light lead core, you can separate the jacket from the core. I've done it.
@LittleCrowGunworks I was thinking of a 26inch with a 1:8 or 1:8.5 twist rate. I do hunt in northern Michigan where it gets below freezing. Since this is my first 7mm rem mag I want to get it right lol or as right as I can educate myself. I do like the hornady set bullets for whitetail in Michigan they have always done a good job, but I think the Barnes ttsx or the cx bullets will do a great job as well. I have other magnums if I need a heavy bullet for out west elk or big bears but that doesn't mean I don't want a all around choice for my 7mm rem mag. question:: if I go with a 1:8 twist is that going to completely destroy my ability to shoot 139gr SST or 145gr LRX ?? or the 150gr nosler partition??
If you want to use the 160gr CX successfully in the cold in Northern Michigan, I would get a 7.5" twist at the slowest. A 7" twist would be better. Any Barnes Mono will work great with that twist. I personally wouldn't use the 139 SST for anything but Coyotes. Way too explosive. It's basically a VMAX with a different name. The 150 Partition would shoot fine as well in a 7" Twist.
If you have other magnums for elk and this will just be a deer rifle, then stick with an 8" twist and forget about the 160gr CX. That 160CX is truly a unicorn bullet. It's enormous. It's longer than the Barnes 168 LRX, the 175 ELDX, the 180 ELDM, and it's only .020" shorter than the Berger 195gr EOL.
IT IS LONG!
So, it needs tighter twist than all the bullets I mentioned above. As I said, 8" twist is the bare minimum. And at your elevation and cold temps, the 160 CX isn't fully stable, even in an 8" twist. It needs to be tighter.
@LittleCrowGunworks I've shot a ton of northern Michigan whitetails with sst bullets from 308,30-06,300win mag and even my favorite 6mm Remington. They have always performed will but I do wait for the right shot. I do like the Barnes ttsx and I will give them a try. Thanks for the great information, I really appreciate you sharing the knowledge. I have a few 300 win mags and 338 win mag & last but not least 338 lapua so I most like leave the 7rem.mag to whitetail ot Montana mule deer. My 30p win mag loves the 178gr eldx. I am a grain under max and consistently get 1/2 groups off a bench. So if I go elk I can be confident in that. Again thanks for your help.
What manufacturer’s 7PRC die sets would you recommend?
Depends on your application/expectations. We will be covering this later in the series.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thanks. I’ll stay tuned for that future video. I’m wanting a die set to optimize dimensional consistency from round to round. I won’t be competing, so I don’t need the best and most expensive dies.
Answered a lot of questions but one. Is Gordon Reloading a phone app or a computer program only?
Computer, as far as I know.
I’m new to this and it’s cleared up a lot of questions, can’t thank you enough. I’m just loading for my 6.5x55 K95. Finding a modern load is impossible. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks very much for this series. This video is so full of information I'm going to definitely watch it at least one more time. I shoot and hunt with a 7x57 (modern action) and am planning to switch to monolithic bullets. Everyone says that they thrive on velocity, but it's generally hard to get from the standard loading manuals as the pressure is always kept so low. I am hoping that these tips will help me get better velocity and performance with 139 (and maybe 145 grain) bullets. Thanks again.
Barrel length would help me, but N540 is gonna be the ticket.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thank you for the reply! My M70s are Featherweights: 22 inch barrels. My M98s have 24 inch barrels. I live and hunt in Florida. Thanks again.
Make sure you have enough twist rate for the bullet you select. Also, this info isn't helpful unless you have a good chronograph. By good I mean, MagnetoSpeed, LabRadar, Garmin or Oehler 35P. Nothing else.
That said, with N540, and those rifles, good brass, in good condition. Lapua would be optimal and a 145LRX or 139CX, I would stay below:
M70 = 2860fps = 450yd Max Range with a 145LRX
M98 = 2780fps = 400yd Max Range with a 145LRX
The 139CX max range would be the same. Going faster than the 145 but lower BC, cancels each other out.
Good luck.
@@LittleCrowGunworks This is incredibly helpful. I can't thank you enough. BTW, the chronograph is the new Garmin. I'm going to watch your series on the 22 Nosler, and am looking forward to the next episode in this 7mm series. Thanks again.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Unfortunately, Lapua doesn't make 7x57 brass. Do you have a recommendation? I have quite a bit of Federal, Winchester, Remington, Prvi, Hornady, and some Norma. Thanks.
Another great video tim. Thank you so much for taking the time to make this series. I had an accurate load worked up with my 22" .280 ackley using IMR7828SSC using 162 gr eld-x bullets and traveling at 2984 ft/sec, but now im interested to see what Gordon's Reloading Tool spits back about this load. Great information from these first 3 volumes of videos. Now i want to see if i can get a 150 gr CX load to shoot with my 1:9 barrel. I was going to use IMR7828SSC again, but i want to see what GRT says about the three 280 AI powders on "Tim's List". Thanks again!!!
Thanks Steve! I'll save you the trouble, that load is SPICY. Looks like over 70K psi and only 95.4% burn.
That powder is too slow for the 280 unless you're using a 195 Berger and still at 70K. THEN it all burns.
@LittleCrowGunworks thanks for saving me the trouble. I will still sit down and run the powders through GRT. It's interesting that it came in at 70k psi. I guess that shows the importance of brass. I switched to Petersen brass from the books listed Nosler brass (my first loads). My 60.9 gr of of 7828 wasn't quite book max, but as you showed in this video, the books are relative and they used the thinner nosler brass. It makes sense my pressure was up, but I wouldn't have gone that high would I have known that it was 70k psi. I shot as high as book max of 61.5 gr too (with only 3015 ft/sec difference) with much larger group size.
As I've said in another comment, I'm still making my way up that first hill on your chart and I'm soaking in as much as I can. I really like learning. I wonder how high I would have had to go to see pressure signs? Or does this kind of show how pressure signs on brass is a dangerous way of doing load development? Not quite sure. Like I said. I'm still learning and this series is excellent and I'm very grateful for the time you're putting into the planning, filming, and follow up of our questions. Thanks again!
I wouldn't say its flat out dangerous. But where you are at, you're drastically shortening the brass and barrel life. That amount of pressure is hard on stuff. You're basically taking the barrel life down close to a 7 PRC or 7 MAG level. For the same velocity as the 7 Mags, but WORSE brass life than the 7 Mags.
So you have less recoil, the same velocity, worse brass life and slightly better barrel life than the 7 Mags.
Using my powders, you should be down around 2875fps AT THE MAX. Faster than that is overpressure.
@@LittleCrowGunworksexcellent
Thank you for the follow up. Was that 2875 with the 162 eld-x I was shooting or the 150 gr CX that I'm going to work up in its place?
162 ELDX. With the 150CX the ceiling would be 2940 to 2970fps
Nice video. How can I add 7mm PRC in Gordon?
Another awesome vid. I am glad you took the time to clear out a lot of "noise" by reviewing what powders are going to work best and what parameters should be important. Then you go to the nitty and the gritty. A ladder test. Find the plateau of stable velocity. Either with a chrono or, in the case of a well made rifle, hitting in the tight spot.
I also get why you demonstrated on the PH 175 gr instead of the CX. Once you get in the numbers for the CX, it will be for rifles that you build, not off the shelf rifles where mileage may vary. So, that saves a lot of side discussion.
I saw that Hornady podcast on the CX right after I watched your episode 2 of the 7 mm showdown. And yeah, I went back to refresh my memory and that is, if you can get into CX, do it. Even for whitetail hunting. My plan is to have my 7 PRC be my hunting rifle for anything up to elk. It doesn't have to be the fastest. I know the recent scuttlebutt over Hornady 7 PRC PH 175 gr shooting up to 200 fps slower than the box. First off, that is achieved with hand-built rifles under exacting conditions. As opposed to making something that will sit on a shelf and wind up in who knows what rifle.
Like you said, the ultimate speed is not as important as having the bullet go where you want it to go.
The other thing I have heard of is another youtuber, excellent at making clickbait titles, started a clean rifle with CX Outfitter and got nice groups. Then switched to the ELD-X and those were not as lovely. Switched back to the CX and those groups widened up.
It was surmised that the fouling was causing the increased dispersion. Clean rifle completely to the metal. Then start with the CX again and the groups get better. Another person commented and said that he had not had dispersion changes in barrels that were "not that susceptible to copper fouling."
Which would be a moot discussion if building a new rifle to only shoot copper monolithic rounds. But I don't know enough to tell how much of that youtube "experts" noise. Just like, the recent horror at Hornady 7 PRC 175 gr being not as fast. Well, the bullet came out in the fall of 2022. People are just now making a big deal about it? Noise. Powder availability or expense? Okay, that makes sense.
You're not looking for stable velocity. You're looking for stable impact location across charge weights and MOST of the time, the stable velocity ALSO happens to be at that point. So often times you get both.
Exactly, demoing the 175 was the right choice.
Consistent point of impact is first, if you can ALSO get high velocity, great!
The CX aren't bad when it comes to fouling, but they are worse than lead core bullets. Relatively clean rifles shoot the CX's tight.
I appreciate your thorough, well thought out comments.
I have one more question dose primer seating depth (crush) matter and if so how much thanks
Not for this project. If you're a competition shooter, it makes a small difference. But, for game animals out to 600yds, there is a GIGANTIC list of things that don't matter. Primer crush is on that list.
Still loving this series. Still learning on every video so far.
Glad to hear it!
Thank you so much I'm fairly new to reloading and powder has really confused me until this video
You're welcome. It's a very confusing topic, that's why it was a priority for me to simplify it for you.
Thank you for the great content! Keep it coming TIm! Loading for the 7 PRC, ( love the 7 MAG), and have tried H1000 with good results, did not try it in Gordons Reloading to find out that it was not burning 100%, with 1/2 grain charge weight changes shooting in 1/2" group. Just loaded up some Staball HD and you are correct, not enough case plus it is a ball powder. Have some N560 I will try your recommendation for a good powder. Thank you again for the great Video! I am shooting out of a 26" Proof barrel:) No short barrels here.
Thanks for the feedback. Hey alright! No short barrels! I think N560 is gonna be the sweet spot.
Taking your advice on CX bullet now. Other bullets work good on deer. Going Elk hunting this year.
Good Deal.
Dale whacked his elk last year with that 160CX at 40yds with that 28 Nosler. He hit it in my little black box/ideal impact location. Busted both shoulders at the joint, left an inch and a quarter exit hole. The Bull dropped instantly, never got up.
no love for 7wsm or 7/300 wsm? necking down 300 wsm ADG brass and now lapua will be nice
@kenthall6584
In order to make the cut for this comparison series, it had to have "long range" factory ammo available.
Which = No Wildcats or obscure cartridges.
Does the Gordon's reloading tool function on an iMac computer? Or does it have to be Windows?
Don't know. I've been a life long windows and android guy.
Great video. Why is Magpro irrelevant? Because it's a ball powder? I was anticipating your GRT evaluation of it. I ran a lot of powders on GRT and chose Magpro as one of 4 powder choices (RL26 was out of the question). I find Magpro lagging just behind N565 in my 22" 7 PRC with Nosler ABLRs at ~2900fps with 70gr., and I haven't maxxed it out. 69.7gr of N565 gives me ~2925fps and single-digit ES.
Thank you.
It's a ball powder and there are better choices, as you just pointed out. I would take N565 100 out of 100 times over Magpro. It's not JUST about velocity. It's all factors.
Can Magpro be made to work, sure. But if you haven't purchased powder yet, there are better choices in my opinion.
It's also not JUST about peak velocity, as I mentioned. If it doesn't consistently shoot well at that velocity, it doesn't mean anything.
I wanted to use N565 for the 7 Rem and 7 PRC, but with the lighter 160gr bullet, it was a touch too slow for the PRC.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I'm not a speed chaser, but when the groups close up I'm good with it. As you mentioned, one has to really step on ball powders to get there. I have a stock of different powders, as I've been handloading for 40 years. Never had RL26, LOL! I'm getting as good a group out of Magpro as N165, 7828ssc and N565. H1000 was underwhelming, and RL25 rocked (temp instable though). But my measured input into GRT gives me a good idea of my pressures. I've also ran Staball HD at 71.1gr with good results with the 175 ELD-X, which was last season's successful elk load. I ran 160-162gr copper solids with 4831sc, 7828ssc and N165 with decent results too. N560 would shine with those weights (I don't have). I have my own 800yd range, and my neighbor has a 1200yd range, and I shoot all year long at my leisure (when I'm not haying). 50fps to me is no big deal, but it increases hit proficiency, as you note. I hope people tuned into your entire video. One can't grasp the load development process with short attention span theater.
Great comment. Lot's of good info there. That's good that you are able to practice frequently. Very good use of time.
Once again a very informative video!
Thanks Tim
Thanks for the support buddy, see ya soon!
Tim, thanks as always for the deep-dive - I always start off watching one of your videos and hammering out a knee-jerk question, and by the time I'm about halfway through, I'm deleting the comment/question as you cover the topic.
I've been playing around with Gordon's since about the second video, learned the hard-but-luckily-safe way about the burnt propellant value, and have dug a little deeper because of it.
I've even taken the time to model as best I can the .284 160 CX (as Hornady isn't giving the boattail's dimensions) for my theorycrafted 280AI loads.
My caliper-measured bullet length is, unrounded (1.6118), within 2thou of JBM's listed length (1.612), but I'd be curious to see what numbers you came up with for the L, A, and B measurements on the boat tail - Or if you just used the numbers Gordon's has listed for the ELD family.
Next line of questioning - Do you find a significant-for-most-people benefit, with non-magnums, for barrels over 26", or do you find that (with a 280AI, for example) above 26" you're not getting any significant value?
As an aside, for any of my questions you'd like to answer, but don't feel like they add to the topic at hand for most folks, please feel free to just throw a PM at me with it; I don't want to be eating up time better used for other information
You're welcome. Like I said, give me some space and see where I go and ask at the end if I missed it.
I'm not sure what lot of CX you have, but what I have is:
1.626" Long
L = .224
A = .2835
B = .238
You get significant value for any cartridge to have a longer barrel. But it's not linear and it scales depending on how overbore a cartridge. For example, your 280AI combo with an optimal powder, going from 26" to 28" will only net about 23fps/inch. Because the 280AI is a well balanced cartridge. Where my 257 WBY load will gain 36fps/inch because it is so overbore. Where a 308 Winchester with a heavy bullet it's down to 18fps/inch, because that cartridge is "underbore"...if that's a thing.
But if were talking the same cartridge scenarios between 22 to 24" barrels the losses are:
308 = 23fps/inch (was 18)
280AI = 29.5fps/inch (was 23)
257 WBY = 46.5fps/inch (was 36)
So you see how the bigger the cartridge is, the more the barrel length matters. And the shorter you go, the more you lose. It's NOT linear. It's parabolic.
That's why, when I see short barreled magnums, I instantly shake my head. You're giving up so much performance to save a few inches and a few ounces. It's a stupid trade off.
You can't just say, oh, you only lose 25fps/inch. That will only be reality under very specific circumstances. Like say taking your 280AI from 30 inches to 22 inches. The AVERAGE would be 25fps/inch. But it will NEVER be linear.
Great questions
@@LittleCrowGunworks Tim, are you going to touch on pressure signs?
[edit] Specifically, what you look for - I've found a breakdown on pressure signs from Primal Rights, and it's just as enlightening as everything you've done and shared with us.
As an aside, for anyone else reading, I can concur with what Tim said about Ramshot Hunter - I have a pound from another load on another rifle, and figured I'd try it for science, and because GRT suggests that it should be my best velocity maker. It's not - Every load of Ramshot was almost exactly 120fps short of what GRT indicated. Every single one, and - for my rifle (26" barrel Browning Xbolt) not one node I would choose to use, even if it was getting the required velocities.
I might. But I don't want to encourage everyone to do exactly what I do. Many people aren't perceptive enough to notice the pressure signs I'm looking for. It's a high risk, zero reward conversation for us.
Stay off the ball powders. I done told ya already. LOL
You don't even have to tell me the details, I already know that every extruded powder you tested, shot smaller than the ball powder.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I know, I know - But I put those together before I was able to get hold of the 55-seris, and the 4350, and I've never been one to just accept as gospel something I can [safely] test myself.
I'll be holding that hunter back if I ever need to fire form, or for smaller rounds.
That's a great philosophy. Don't trust some guy on the internet with only 2500 subscribers. What does he know? Go test it!
Did you find any sweet spots to go shoot 5 of?
I can’t thank you enough for these videos. My 7prc loves the factory ELD-M ammo but sadly didn’t like the factory 160gr CX ammo. The ELD-M’s were shooting 200fps slower out of my 24” barrel than the box velocity. This makes me want to reload my own ammo!
Thank you for coming along. If you're not a handloader, try out the Federal ammo for your 7 PRC. That Terminal Ascent is a great bullet and I'm hearing favorable things about the velocity and precision of their ammo.
Hornaday used RL26 to develop the cartridge and now you can't get it.
Bingo. Hence the 3000 fps on the box for a 24" barrel.
Hey Tim, the Badlands Precision Super Bulldozer 2 7mm 160 gr. has a G1 BC of .690 while the 160 gr. CX from Hornady has a G1 BC of .596
I know they aren’t a major bullet manufacturer, but they are great.
I don't doubt that. We try to promote bullets that are available to handload AND as factory ammo.
Refreshing that someone else appreciates a 24-26" barrel vs the current trend of 18-20" stubs. I have also found IMR-7828 to be fantastic in various 7mms.
Been loading since 1963 and leaned a lot, wish I was more computer savvy so I could use the programs you use! My bad.
They are pretty helpful. Thanks for joining us.
Unfortunately I was stuck with 22in barrel for my 7prc I wanted 26 but what I was looking for and everything they only had it in 22 in so we will see how she performs still waiting on the pic rail that fits it and 8-40 screws ughh
It'll shoot, just pick the right powder.
Love this series!
Thanks Bob!
Watched it again. I'm slowly doing load development for a new 7x300 win mag. Pick 8 twist, think its to fast. 175 SGK 7828 @ 3080 first firing Peterson long brass full prep.
I don't know your barrel length, but I think you are close to max with that bullet and powder.
Lol. Your CX explanation was awesome.
Thanks! 😃
Good Stuff, Thanks for sharing your knowledge
Thanks for watching!
One statement you made, in a previous video, that surprised me quite a lot was that Partions don’t exit. I thought they did. 😢, I’ll be ok.
I really like the “insurance” type mindset.
Partitions can exit, but on average they don't. Again, speaking in generalities.
Never had one that didnt exit for me in 6mm rem on whitetails. Killed several with the 100 grain all under 100 yrds. Cant say how they do at other ranges or on bigger game
At last, a tool (Gordon's) and a load work up strategy that makes sense to me. I started reloading a little about 10 years ago, but felt like I had more questions than answers reading multiple manuals, watching videos, asking friends. I haven't done any reloading in a few years because haven't had an opportunity to set up a spot for my bench. (moved a few times).
I need to make ammo for my 257 Roberts because there is only 1 factory load left and I'm not a fan, and ran out the other ammo I had left.
I'm glad I'm inspiring you to get back to it. I have a Bob as well. Love that cartridge. I'm sad I didn't mention it in this video.
Now to figure out GRT for my 338 win mag an 308 Norma mag. I was playing g with it for my 45-70 but the best efficiency I can get is 85%..
Good vid, I enjoyed it.
I've been using GRT for some years now & won't even imagine starting load development without running through all the variables I put through GRT. It's great to finally see the likes of you guys using GRT.
I must say though that I found a couple things a little strange. Although I'll admit I haven't run through your GRT data yet, I'm bamboozled how your GRT showed barrel burnout after muzzle with AR 2209/H4350 with, Alliant reloader 23/22 with burnout prior to to muzzle. That's got me fucked actually.
I notice you've got the "bullet jump still locked which, can be an important factor &, temp can make quite a difference depending on powder type as well as case volume & ultimately the "K" & "Ba" of your powder batch after adding in the real world velocities which, take into account the slight differences in batch burn characteristics.
Although I must agree with you about most of what you mentioned, I have to say that, in some circumstances, there can be some significant differences in pressure & velocity listings by GRT until, the real world velocities are listed for the program & the "K" & "Ba" has been corrected.
As for the listed velocities in the reloading manual, I'll admit that I've measured many reasonably serious discrepancies since utilizing GRT with regard to listed velocities however, I think it's worth reminding you & others that the testing barrels & chambers are machined to SAAMI or CIP minimums for the specific purpose of ensuring a "worst case scenario. In addition, the listed velocities are listed in 100 ft/sec increments which, I've always taken as meaning that, for example; 2900 could mean that the average velocity was actually 2870 ft/sec or, 2900 could have represented an average of 2940 ft/sec. This makes perfect sense to me due to the differences in velocity betwixt all the rifles, barrels, chambers & etc in the world.
Again, great vid & I reckon you're worth taking seriously using GRT which, for me, has been mostly so close to reality that, I now trust & rely on GRT explicitly.
Great comment. It was AR2213SC that didn't all burn. Not 2209.
I am aware that the test chambers and bore are to minimum spec. Thanks for coming along.
Great video!! Thank you for answering my question regarding CX over Barnes, it absolutely makes sense. Also I cannot agree more regarding suppressors. If I’m adding six inches to my gun I want barrel and speed!
Ab...so...loutely!
Can you stabilize a 160 CX bullet with a 1:9 twist in my 7 Rem Mag? I wouldn't think so but you are the expert. Love this video series! And I have loved my 7 Rem Mag 24 1/2 inch barrel for many many years and many trips out west and old Mexico
.
Great question. No, it's way too long for a 9 twist to achieve full stability. The 150gr CX going between 3200 - 3260fps is a fantastic option for you. Or the 168gr Nosler Long Range Accubond around 3100fps. If you can find them. (Queue the eye roll)
@@LittleCrowGunworks Help me understand...when you speak of the 7 RM along side the 7 PRC IN THIS VIDEO you are talking about a custom chamber with a longer throat to seat that 160 CX further out than a Sammi spec chamber? I am in the process now of catching up on Part 1 and Part 2. I was fired up last year when you outlined this project and I'm going to catch up. Thanks for the great videos sir! Yes, I'm 70 years old and referring to you as "sir"...out of respect for your experience. Ha
Thank you for that! Neither is throated out. We decided against throating out the 7 Rem Mag or anything else. That said, the 7 Rem STILL has more effective combustion space than the 7 PRC.
Imr 7828ssc is a great powder but in my 7prc as it shot tight groups but much slower velocities over 200fps slower! Iam wanting to try vihtavuori powders
If it shot 200fps slower than ANYTHING else, you're drastically underloading it. The list of powders that will produce even 50fps over 7828 at the same pressure is VERY short.
I run 7828 in 257 Wby and yes they lie about velocity in the books. I'm not pushing it hard but 115 Nosler BT with 69.0 and getting 3,350 ish fps but had a mishap with the chronograph, so not 100% confident in velocity but I shot a mix of 115-117 bullets and they all shot well enough for a 300 yard hunter.
Agreed. In my experience, 7828 will compete with RL26 for the velocity title, AND it shoots small.
Hi Tim, First of all I’d like to thank you for sharing this. I have a question pertaining to your list of powders. Where on your list would you put 6.5 Creedmoor and also 6.5 PRC?
It depends on bullet weight, but for the Creed, N150 or N550. For the 6.5 PRC, N160 thru N560 depending on bullet weight and barrel length.
Thanks Tim! I have been wanting to try some VV powders as the prices for Hodgdon has gotten ridiculous. Crazy that VV is now the less expensive option.
No Problem. Yeah, never thought I would see the day, but here it is...
Tim,
How do you add a powder to GRT? N150 is not listed at least on my program. If you can’t add, then is there a trick maybe to mimic a powder that isn’t listed? Like N150
You start with a different powder, like N140 and then change all the properties to that of N150. Once you change all the properties to that of N150, attempt to change the powder to something else, it will ask you if you want to save what you have to your DB, say yes and change the name to N150.
Here are the inputs in order, top to bottom for N150:
3790 k/kg
1.2214
0.5814
1.1286
0.4697
0.8169
98.64 lb/ft3
55.56 lb/ft3
Thank You for doing this!
You're just chugging right along!
Great series. Learning a ton of new stuff. Big Thanks
Glad to hear it! Thank you for the support!
@@LittleCrowGunworks
Have a Bergara B 14 Ridge on order in 7 PRC. Unfortunately only has a 22 inch barrel. Will certainly try VV N 560 with a 175 grain. Powder wasn’t even on my radar until watching this episode .
Thanks again look forward to the range
That's ok. Get N560 and let it rip. You need to be over 2790fps to get 100% burn at your barrel length.
@@LittleCrowGunworks
Awesome Thanks for your response it’s very much appreciated on my end
This series has been great. I've never used any Vihtavuori powders, guess Im going to have to give them a try. I've been loading H1000 in my 22" 7mmprc with 175 ABLR's.
Too slow in my opinion. N560 @ 2790fps+ for 100% burn.
Great video! I’m in the process of developing a load for my 270 wsm and I noticed you stated you like IMR 7828 powder. Would you recommend that specific powder for a 270 wsm with a 23” barrel?
Depends on bullet weight.
I’m planning on using 130 grain Nosler etips
N160. Add to cart.
7828 is WAY too slow for your combo.
Sounds good. Thanks for the advice
Anytime.
The barrel length, and 100 % burn rate is what I think is fuzzing my loads on a few rifles...thanks for ensight..
No problem.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I'm starting episode #5, so far Tim, you have been able to get me to change my mind on some issues, I've struggled with for 30+ years . #1. I shoot mostly old hunting guns, I have a few customs, but barrel length have me over a barrel.. anyhoo, you keep this up, and I will call John Bareness and tell him I found someone with more thorough information..