As a software developer I'm astonished Factorio keeps on chugging at 60fps, even with thousands of train wagons, dense swarms of bots and belts with millions of items on them.
It probably runs that smooth because it's written in C++. If they have some very talented developers (which it really seems like), they should be able to do very efficient memory and resource management, which will result in a very optimized and fast running game :D
@@Ponix1355 According to their blog posts they do optimizations that 99% of developers don't even think need to be done, like arranging entity data in memory so it's sequential and is accessed in sequential manner or in large pages at a time. And they've rewritten parts of the engine several times when they realize they've coded themselves to a corner performance vise. The many years of "you don't need to optimize since compilers do that for you" and "we can just add more memory and CPU to deal with the speed issues" in the academy have really given us crappy software that doesn't run properly. There are dozens of big steps one can take to optimize their code specifically for to an architecture that they're coding on. Intel Core 2 architecture is completely different how it likes to process data and what kinds of data is most efficient than what Skylake or Cannon lake are like. If you know the differences, you can improve your code immensely... and no compiler does these kinds of optimizations for you since it's about how you arrange data, what kinds of math you should do with your data, how you optimize cache use and how you access memory etc... compiler doesn't know your software architecture. No matter what you say RAM is still faster when accessed in proper way and not purely randomly. You can handle shit ton of data if it's sequential/orderly and accessed as such.
careful, it's the bad kind of addictive .. you think you're over it .. some weeks later just try something out .. and pow .. working weeks of time invested .. not regreting it .. but darn .. it eats time .. by the way. if you're into beautiful builts, watch nilaus, if you're into interesting on the fly efficient builts watch JD-plays both produce a ton of content
@@NONAME-ey6qs yeah happens to me every time i play it .. just tweaking a little here .. trying a new design there .. and pow .. midnight .. and i prefer to sleep at around 23 .. as i mentioned .. be careful with this game, it looks like from the 90s but it's addictiveness and grade of entertainment is beyond almost anything i ever tryed ..
Hi I'm Rybec and this was my base. You can check it out for yourself here: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Wzcb5CVwbcSqoX-mSXRuNoFnkfeENzkQ?usp=sharing Thanks for showing it off for me! There's a full postmortem on the base in that folder, but here's the actual stats on those trains: * 22 station lengths long, containing * 88 wagon segments at three wagons each, for * 264 total wagons, and * 89 locomotives for a total of * 353 rolling stock. Each train is * 2,471 m in length (assuming 1 tile = 1 m), and can hold * 10,560 stacks of inventory totaling * 528,000 units of ore. There are five of them (three iron, two copper), but for indefinite continuous production of 1kspm I'd actually need a fourth iron ore train. I used timers to regulate their departures, but over time they still sync up just wrong and leave the receiving platform without incoming ore for ~2-5 minutes or so every, I dunno, hour and a half-ish? I did not take the time to actually time it. At least 50 hours of that 300+ was just waiting for things to spool up so I can find the next bottleneck. Some other FAQs I'm seeing in the comments here: Yes, there were some music boxes. Both Reconstruction Science and the Radio music from Portal 1. At dawn, it plays the sunrise theme from Ocarina of Time, this is the noise Xterminator was about to loose his sanity over. There's a substation with a solar panel and one accumulator out on a small island near the site of the original starter base, when the level in the accumulator rises above 99% it plays the music on global. The armor with 10 billion shields is in fact the train survival armor. I got tired of getting ran over while working on the crossloading station that feeds the train bus. Speaking of getting ran over, I'm a little sad Xterminator didn't because I've set it up so that if you DO, when you respawn it plays the game over theme from Zelda for you while you wait for the PAX train to come pick you up. I highly encourage all his friends to copy that blueprint for any future multiplayer maps as it really adds a lot to the experience of the wait of shame while that PAX comes around. In regards to the excessive walls of worms: The map actually was initially set to rail world, with RSO back in 0.15 experimentals (Spot the terrain changes!). Somewhere along the way, something changed in RSO and it started generating endless fields of worms (Check the kill stats for giggles) That copper/oil outpost to the east? Took me probably close to 5-6 HOURS of artillery bombardment to clear that peninsula. When it came time to expand out to the west, I went in and adjusted the mod settings until I got something halfway reasonable. Most of those nukes were used expanding out west; for giggles though check the number of artillery rounds I produced. I haven't looked but I bet it's pretty high. Please note that I basically never log in to TH-cam, so the best place to ask additional questions would be over on the Reddit thread: www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/c8re6t/postmortem_on_my_1k_spm_megabase/.
This is absolutely insane, I’m about 35 hours in and blue science has been a challenge. Whenever I see stuff like this it always looks like some creating the insides of a computer. MIND ABSOLUTELY BLOWN
If you find that interesting, you might wanna look at what people do with redstone in minecraft: They are building virtual functional computers with bits, logic gates, etc. it's amazing.
Actually, I believe using mega-trains like this is pretty efficient, especially for megabases, since it requires a really low amount of trains in between the megabase and patches. Imo, the only thing that could perhaps be improved is the number of megatrain wagons being concurrently loaded per batch.
The big issue is that they appear to be inactivity based so whenever production and consumption are out of sync, you're either going to have a lot of nearly empty wagons going to the main base and a lot of nearly full wagons heading back out.
That would be the main bottleneck if attempting to expand beyond 1k spm, yes. However, I chose this number of wagons based on my smelters. I have an iron plate smelter and an ore->steel smelter. Each one only unloads 6 wagons of ore at a time, therefore I only need 12 wagons being loaded at any time. If I were to try to expand to higher 2k+ spm, I'd either need to lengthen the megastation or have multiple megastations. (though if I were doing more than 1k spm, the intermediate trains would also need to be longer.
@@haph2087 The number of iterations of the AI is smaller so that takes less time. Ergo it's not impossible that it would be less laggy. Though I doubt it's nearly as bad as the massive amount of bots. They too have AI and most people have way more of them than trains. I know I have every play through.
The programmers working on this are amazing. I think optimization is mostly done by using culling algorithms. Everything not on screen is elegantly arranged data manipulations and algorithms that can be highly efficient on modern hardware. Also the renderings is not very demanding aswell, so they have alot of free performance for big amounts if entities. But Factorios fps drops like any other game would when you have many actors on the screen. Try the map editor and place robots with the biggest brush intensity. It crumbles on my i7 7700k and it would on newer cpus aswell. Thats basically because there technical limitations by the hardware we reached. Ofcourse there is always something to optimize like smarter paging and arranging data on bitwise, but after all the limit is there. No doubt though the factorio programmers are one of the most talented game programmers ever. Imo especially some mechanics just work so well and everything just goes hand in hand. One of the best games ever made. Also performance wise :)
@@warpzone8421 My man. I challenge you to make anything with even remotely the amount of entities Factorio has. Including determinism. I'll bet quite a lot of money you're not even going to get half of the performance Factorio has.
@@Xterminator Only because you were too afraid to walk more than 5 feet lol. Just get on the concrete in between the rails, it's fine. You'll be fine. It's been at least 3 minutes since the last accident.
The reason the megatrains are actually efficient, is because of the huge distance. Big distance = long travel time. They would either need many many small trains, or a few really long ones.
The theoretically most efficient train would just be one which is a giant loop, which is at that point just a giga-conveyor. I think an interesting design would be a system that is constantly lining trains up on a long distance line and then they hit a station where they split off to where they need to go while maintaining full speed with no separate mini-trains having to transfer items over. The scheduling would be a true nightmare though.
This train length rivals the longest trains used IRL in the top 10 IRL trains we have 200 up to almost 700 wagons 2.4km - 7.4km this train we see in the here got 264 wagons :) i think about ~130 is regular used IRL Australian BHP Iron ore train, the longest train to ever run in the world, this train is officially in the guinness book of world records for the longest train. The record was set on june 21, 2001 in western australia between newman and port headland, a distance of 275km (170 miles) and the train consisted of 682 loaded iron ore wagons and 8 GE AC6000 locomotives giving a gross weight of almost 100,000 tonnes and moved 82,262 tonnes of ore, the train was 7.353 km (4.568 miles) long. BHP iron ore did this to test locotrol which is where locomotives are evenly placed along the length of the train. The locotrol setup was 2 locos-166 wagons, 2 locos-168 wagons, 2 locos-168 wagons, 1 loco-180 wagons then the last locomotive on the back.
@@llVIU yes on long distance freight trains regularly go up to 150+ in US, africa, brazil and russia at least thats the one i know of. EU's rail system is maybe not build for such long trains or just inefficient/ not needed for such smal country's
@@retlom779 The main difference I think is that the train system in Europe (and for example Japan) is foremost built for dense passenger traffic. Cargo trains (especially during the day) have to fit in between the passenger trains, which means shorter (due to the need for frequent passing loops to let faster long distance passenger trains pass, which get more and more expensive the longer they are) but faster (so that they can at least keep up with regional and local passenger trains) cargo trains (the TGV postal in France that ran at 270 km/h from 1986 to 2015 probably being the fastest cargo train ever built). Also, Europe didn't (and doesn't) have the "luxury" of building its train network into vast stretches of sparsely settled land, it was already relatively densely populated before railways became even a thing.
Before retiring, my father worked for CN in western Canada. He told me a story of the Potash mines testing to see how large of a train they could run. They ran into issues around the 5 km/3 mile length with the knuckles between cars snapping under load.
only a couple of minutes in, and it's not like I haven't played factorio, but I am really struggling to understand what the hell is going on in those factories and the trains. So when you talk about "standard", this is clearly way beyond anything I've built
@@EverDarkness147 I've got into the unlimited science levels needing multiple 10k's of space science for any research and this is still way beyond my basic understanding. (that being said, a couple of weeks ago I stumbled across a fairly efficient way of rigging up science labs with interweaving belts. (something I'd never considered before and it's actually quite effective.) even if I had the file save (albeit now out of date for military science) it would take me hours to break down how it works just to even attempt to understand it, let alone duplicate it. My next step in production learning is to find a better way of mining and processing ore than the new system I'm currently using.
@@sykeassai this sounds like actual spacecraft level of real science understanding, I think my problem with the understanding of factorio is that i'm very limited of thinking and planing and I do plan way too small :D I really hope you'll find a way go get your goal more efficient than now. good luck
@@EverDarkness147 I am not sure how far you've got but if you are struggling with getting to purple this is what I'd advise as a good model, cover an entire mining field with electric drills (spaced so they won't cross over each other's area of green). run some belts together from the drills down to a place you can have 5 electric furnaces either side of the one "output belt" from the mine, and then have the two belts either side of the furnaces meet together going towards your main local assembly area, that should help with your ore mining if you don't already have something better. Or if you have roboports and drones, use a load of logistic bots transfer from the mine to the refinery and onwards using provider and requester chests. it's fairly simple but hopfully it should help? Build up area's different area's production which should hopefully flow into the next piece of production
@@sykeassai thanks alot, yeah this will help me, my biggest issue is belting or providing my belts with enough resources, but I'm really not that far in the game, I've started a new run couple hours ago. :D I do need more time to understand this game more ^^
The actual reason why this is so effective is because it effectively removes the in between time it takes for a train to leave a track section and the next train to start moving to fill it. Think of it like cars at the red light. Imagine when the light turns green all the cars accelerate immediately and the gap between them stays at 0.
Cloude But the large train is still filled up and emptied in small batches, which reduced the efficiency to somewhere between regular trains and the optimal megatrain.
I just started playing a week or so ago and have been following your beginner tutorials which are great and then I stumble upon this and my head is about to explode.
Hmm maybe I should watch some beginner tutorials aswell, completed the game a while ago but never watched any tutorials and didn't really think that far ahead into the future so the factory was a mess
I made a prototype of a station where a train comes in, and another comes in at the slot behind it. Functionally, it's like a double train station, but it services single trains.
I had a megabase concept that did this using coupling/decoupling. It was a multi-stage coupling/decoupling system that went from 3-3-8 ore trains to 12-4-32 ore to ?-?-128 ore trains. The had the blueprints down but ended up not taking the final leap and am just running the 32's. Didn't get the megabase portion up and running before 0.17 hit and haven't gotten back to it. The blueprints are down - untested, but down - but the rail network to support it isn't up and running. Also, need to finish switching the ME to the 32's.
I made a base with a train pretty much the same size as these. (Mine is 304 car) The special thing was that this train was the only resource train I was using. I made a reddit post about it and it was quite popular (>3k upvotes) but somehow it wasn't showing up on the reddit weekly discussions despite being the top post for one month. Now it's a little older than one month. You can show the base too if you want.
@rybek I really love your base and base design. I also appreciate you throough answers on the comments. It answered some of my curiosities i had as well. :)
The idea behind this long megatrain is production efficiency. This guy has a constant flow of ore. if you use many small trains or 5-6 trains you need to wait a long time b4 you get yr ore
This doesn't make sense to me. I have the settings cranked up to the highest, and there's only a few million ore per patch. How could the small amount of patches be feeding trains that are dumping millions of ore? And really wish I could have gotten a good look at the mining setup. How could you extract ore from those patches at high enough speed to fill those trains?
When I research all tech in my current game I'm gonna set the ore patches to really far apart and super rich and huge using rso, so I can use massive trains. Probably not as big as these trains but still.
European feight standard trains are 750 meters long, in the US they are 2000 meters. A freight wagon is usually between 12 and 18 meter long making a euorpean freight train to be about 40-60 wagons and a US once being about 100 to 160 wagons. Granted ore hoppers is usually fairly short, some times down to 10 meters. So those trains are quite a bit larger than most real trains
Factorio wagons are really short. If one tile is one meter, then wagons are 6 meters long with 1 meter inbetween. The entire rail line put together would make IRL rail logistics engineers weep though, for sure.
@@TehRybec Well they are sort of kind of really light to.. I calculated that a full load of coal would be about 700kg. And of cause.. real trains don´t have like 20 locos. Sadly i have not seen any game done bulk cargo correctly
Yep. I am just not smart enough to do this. But serious kudos to Wube for creating a platform with as much complexity and versatility as Factorio. I haven't even touched the mod overhauls yet.
Yeah this even pushing the limits of my abilities with all the playtime and stuff I have. This is what makes Factorio so amazing though, that you can do stuff like this within it if you want to.
my oil train in 0.16 does 1.2 mill and loads and unloads in 3 seconds at 60 fps, the train has 6 front engines the rest liquid logistic and 4 artillery cars on rear. i find it really hard to do multi stops for liquid logistics but realy simple for solid logistics
Is there are reason why your 'defense posts' are small full circle? Even when they are against the base? Usually people place towers in a straight line.
I have a base where i used the same principle for one of my ore patches but unfortunetly when i try to load the map in 1.17 Biters anhilliate my base since worms have a greater range now
To me these bases are something like a person who can lift 150kg weight 90k times per day. It's beyond sane human capabilities. No brain can contain that much, you gotta live with Factorio, breathe with Factorio, sleep while playing Factorio...
I don't remember for sure if this was on my current PC or previous one. I think it was current one. Specs for that are: I7 9700k 16GB 3200mhz ram with 14 Cas Latency (higher speed and low latency is super important for Factorio). 1080ti GPU. SSD. Hope that helps!
You should check out (Probably you already did see him) Jimorian's train (he streams on twitch), he got a pretty long artillery train:D I think like 50 wagon or so.. but its all all artillery:D it kills biter bases super fast:D
@@Xterminator he got a similar style train stop, where he kinda wrap up his train like a snake..going in and out in a spiral... then when his train stops he starts shooting those artillery :D
Does nobody hear the "Reconstructing More Science" from Portal 2 playing in the background? You can hear it well on 4:00. Are those programmable speakers? Edit: Reconstructing More Science, not You Will Be Perfect
How come most of those wagons still had ore in them at the mega ore loading? Wouldn't you just want to wait for a train to be empty before sending it to the loading station? Or does that have to do with the fact that if you wait for a cargo wagon to empty, there's a bit of downtime when the train needs to move a bit forward to unload the next cargo wagons.
@@Xterminator I think without mods it is not easy to determine if each stage of wagons is empty - could do a total ore count but I am pretty sure it is just timing to keep the ore flowing.
@@mrdrummer2564 Yeah it's way more important that trains keep moving than that they fully empty. If the train stuck around until it was completely empty you could potentially get trains backed up all the way to the mining outpost. Plus, particularly with the copper trains, they don't unload evenly if there's backpressure. The bots in the crossloader pull from the chests closest to the middle first and there's no way that I could find to force them to draw evenly so the wagons on the ends of each segment could take a really long time to get emptied. Plus there's only two stations in the schedule, so I'd have to plop combinators down at every single one of those train stops to read the train contents. This way I just have two station names, each set to wait the minimum amount of time to completely load or unload a wagon with all 12 inserters or 1 second inactivity.
@@mrdrummer2564 No, it looks like "Megastation Copper 1" "Megastation Copper 2" end of schedule. Every other stop it encounters has the same name. Theoretically it could be setup to fully unload with no circuits, but EVERY stop would need a unique name. 22 per station, per ore type. That's 88 uniquely named train stops total for both ore types that would have to be manually entered into the schedule and have resource amount triggers setup-hence why I decided to go with 2 instead. I may be crazy but I'm not THAT crazy.
Do those huge trains actually make sense? I thought the max size that makes sense would be based on the size of your loading station. Let's say only 5% of the train is being loaded at any one time, if you had split it up, then the rest of the train could already be on its way instead of sitting around waiting for the wagons behind it to be loaded.
I haven't seen a factorio video in weeks and now just today I started playing again and TH-cam recommends me this? I didn't search anything factorio related or type anything factorio related into Google wtf.
@@Xterminator On the map there's a yellow marker labelled "Good morning", north of the make everything, past the solar panels near the ruins of the starter base. IIRC it's not in radar coverage, but the cyan PAX train near the make everything can take you to the "watering hole" if you want to look at it.
So... it's a modded base and we just gunna ignore the purple circuits at 1:54?
5 ปีที่แล้ว +1
How is this game keeping up with the performance? Has someone with a dev background a clue? Normally, a game that loads millions of items at the same time would crash instntly.
only stuff you're looking at is rendered at all; stuff outside it is simulated, afaik, and likely aggressively optimized (ie make a graph to represent what's going on, find what's the bottleneck, then you can simulate with little drop, but i doubt it's that aggressive but it is what satisfactory does)
As a software developer I'm astonished Factorio keeps on chugging at 60fps, even with thousands of train wagons, dense swarms of bots and belts with millions of items on them.
Yeah, it is truly amazing. The devs have done amazing work!
Like seeing a game with 400M unique elements while it takes up 300Mb disc space. A miracle! O_O
It probably runs that smooth because it's written in C++. If they have some very talented developers (which it really seems like), they should be able to do very efficient memory and resource management, which will result in a very optimized and fast running game :D
@@Ponix1355 According to their blog posts they do optimizations that 99% of developers don't even think need to be done, like arranging entity data in memory so it's sequential and is accessed in sequential manner or in large pages at a time.
And they've rewritten parts of the engine several times when they realize they've coded themselves to a corner performance vise.
The many years of "you don't need to optimize since compilers do that for you" and "we can just add more memory and CPU to deal with the speed issues" in the academy have really given us crappy software that doesn't run properly.
There are dozens of big steps one can take to optimize their code specifically for to an architecture that they're coding on. Intel Core 2 architecture is completely different how it likes to process data and what kinds of data is most efficient than what Skylake or Cannon lake are like. If you know the differences, you can improve your code immensely... and no compiler does these kinds of optimizations for you since it's about how you arrange data, what kinds of math you should do with your data, how you optimize cache use and how you access memory etc... compiler doesn't know your software architecture.
No matter what you say RAM is still faster when accessed in proper way and not purely randomly. You can handle shit ton of data if it's sequential/orderly and accessed as such.
In college, my 2D graphics class was taught using Allegro. The fact that they used Allegro for all of this absolutely blows my mind.
As someone who just started playing this game... holy hell this is overwhelming.
careful, it's the bad kind of addictive .. you think you're over it .. some weeks later just try something out .. and pow .. working weeks of time invested .. not regreting it .. but darn .. it eats time ..
by the way. if you're into beautiful builts, watch nilaus, if you're into interesting on the fly efficient builts watch JD-plays both produce a ton of content
@@TheyCalledMeT ikr! Bought this game about a week ago and I didnt even notice how this week has passed. It's feels like it was monday just
yesterday.
@@NONAME-ey6qs yeah happens to me every time i play it .. just tweaking a little here .. trying a new design there .. and pow .. midnight .. and i prefer to sleep at around 23 .. as i mentioned .. be careful with this game, it looks like from the 90s but it's addictiveness and grade of entertainment is beyond almost anything i ever tryed ..
... my base does 0.5 yellow science per second. In theory.
Mate.j copy your setup and paste it multiple times
Gotta start somewhere!
Your’s can make yellow science?
@@lordbadoc1137 I just manged to make red, green and yellow on a consistent rate without blowing everying up. These mega bases make me feel so dumb
@@lordbadoc1137 oof XD
Hi I'm Rybec and this was my base. You can check it out for yourself here: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Wzcb5CVwbcSqoX-mSXRuNoFnkfeENzkQ?usp=sharing
Thanks for showing it off for me!
There's a full postmortem on the base in that folder, but here's the actual stats on those trains:
* 22 station lengths long, containing
* 88 wagon segments at three wagons each, for
* 264 total wagons, and
* 89 locomotives for a total of
* 353 rolling stock. Each train is
* 2,471 m in length (assuming 1 tile = 1 m), and can hold
* 10,560 stacks of inventory totaling
* 528,000 units of ore.
There are five of them (three iron, two copper), but for indefinite continuous production of 1kspm I'd actually need a fourth iron ore train. I used timers to regulate their departures, but over time they still sync up just wrong and leave the receiving platform without incoming ore for ~2-5 minutes or so every, I dunno, hour and a half-ish? I did not take the time to actually time it. At least 50 hours of that 300+ was just waiting for things to spool up so I can find the next bottleneck.
Some other FAQs I'm seeing in the comments here: Yes, there were some music boxes. Both Reconstruction Science and the Radio music from Portal 1. At dawn, it plays the sunrise theme from Ocarina of Time, this is the noise Xterminator was about to loose his sanity over. There's a substation with a solar panel and one accumulator out on a small island near the site of the original starter base, when the level in the accumulator rises above 99% it plays the music on global.
The armor with 10 billion shields is in fact the train survival armor. I got tired of getting ran over while working on the crossloading station that feeds the train bus. Speaking of getting ran over, I'm a little sad Xterminator didn't because I've set it up so that if you DO, when you respawn it plays the game over theme from Zelda for you while you wait for the PAX train to come pick you up. I highly encourage all his friends to copy that blueprint for any future multiplayer maps as it really adds a lot to the experience of the wait of shame while that PAX comes around.
In regards to the excessive walls of worms: The map actually was initially set to rail world, with RSO back in 0.15 experimentals (Spot the terrain changes!). Somewhere along the way, something changed in RSO and it started generating endless fields of worms (Check the kill stats for giggles) That copper/oil outpost to the east? Took me probably close to 5-6 HOURS of artillery bombardment to clear that peninsula. When it came time to expand out to the west, I went in and adjusted the mod settings until I got something halfway reasonable. Most of those nukes were used expanding out west; for giggles though check the number of artillery rounds I produced. I haven't looked but I bet it's pretty high.
Please note that I basically never log in to TH-cam, so the best place to ask additional questions would be over on the Reddit thread: www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/c8re6t/postmortem_on_my_1k_spm_megabase/.
Well thanks for sharing anyhow! Really interesting base to get inspired by your solutions and beautiful aestatics
Trys to cross tracks, waits 10 minutes for mega train to pass
Yup haha Just like in the real world, and I love it.
@@Xterminator Lol it's only about 30 seconds, the train's doing 298 km/h. Though it often FELT like 10 minutes.
crosses tracks, train comes out of nowhere the nanosecond you step on the track
@@zperk13 Coyote, from Road Runner cartoon 😂😂😂😂
@@TehRybec any chance to get a map download.
i really wanna know how the train stops are managed
every time i watch factorio content my mind gets blown.
This is absolutely insane, I’m about 35 hours in and blue science has been a challenge. Whenever I see stuff like this it always looks like some creating the insides of a computer. MIND ABSOLUTELY BLOWN
If you find that interesting, you might wanna look at what people do with redstone in minecraft: They are building virtual functional computers with bits, logic gates, etc. it's amazing.
Actually, I believe using mega-trains like this is pretty efficient, especially for megabases, since it requires a really low amount of trains in between the megabase and patches.
Imo, the only thing that could perhaps be improved is the number of megatrain wagons being concurrently loaded per batch.
The big issue is that they appear to be inactivity based so whenever production and consumption are out of sync, you're either going to have a lot of nearly empty wagons going to the main base and a lot of nearly full wagons heading back out.
That would be the main bottleneck if attempting to expand beyond 1k spm, yes. However, I chose this number of wagons based on my smelters. I have an iron plate smelter and an ore->steel smelter. Each one only unloads 6 wagons of ore at a time, therefore I only need 12 wagons being loaded at any time. If I were to try to expand to higher 2k+ spm, I'd either need to lengthen the megastation or have multiple megastations. (though if I were doing more than 1k spm, the intermediate trains would also need to be longer.
@@TehRybec Are larger trains less laggy than multiple small ones because they have a single AI rather than muliple?
@@haph2087 The number of iterations of the AI is smaller so that takes less time. Ergo it's not impossible that it would be less laggy. Though I doubt it's nearly as bad as the massive amount of bots. They too have AI and most people have way more of them than trains. I know I have every play through.
@@mrwalter1049 True.
The programmers working on this are amazing.
I think optimization is mostly done by using culling algorithms. Everything not on screen is elegantly arranged data manipulations and algorithms that can be highly efficient on modern hardware. Also the renderings is not very demanding aswell, so they have alot of free performance for big amounts if entities.
But Factorios fps drops like any other game would when you have many actors on the screen. Try the map editor and place robots with the biggest brush intensity. It crumbles on my i7 7700k and it would on newer cpus aswell. Thats basically because there technical limitations by the hardware we reached. Ofcourse there is always something to optimize like smarter paging and arranging data on bitwise, but after all the limit is there.
No doubt though the factorio programmers are one of the most talented game programmers ever. Imo especially some mechanics just work so well and everything just goes hand in hand. One of the best games ever made. Also performance wise :)
When somebody makes a 60UPS megabase in a game with 20 UPS megabases, and everybody immediately congratulates the game's programmers. 🙄
@@warpzone8421 My man. I challenge you to make anything with even remotely the amount of entities Factorio has. Including determinism.
I'll bet quite a lot of money you're not even going to get half of the performance Factorio has.
I am impressed you went through the whole video without getting hit
You and me both. Lol
@@Xterminator xD
@@Xterminator Only because you were too afraid to walk more than 5 feet lol. Just get on the concrete in between the rails, it's fine. You'll be fine. It's been at least 3 minutes since the last accident.
I really wish train tracks could be crossed by bridges or something. I'm so tired of waiting to cross.
i actually came up with a smart crosswalk a while back. if you want the blueprint, i can find a way to port it to you
@@jaredyancey6162 Really? That would be awesome.
@@jaredyancey6162 I'm interested
@@jaredyancey6162 where
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The reason the megatrains are actually efficient, is because of the huge distance.
Big distance = long travel time.
They would either need many many small trains, or a few really long ones.
The theoretically most efficient train would just be one which is a giant loop, which is at that point just a giga-conveyor. I think an interesting design would be a system that is constantly lining trains up on a long distance line and then they hit a station where they split off to where they need to go while maintaining full speed with no separate mini-trains having to transfer items over. The scheduling would be a true nightmare though.
This train length rivals the longest trains used IRL in the top 10 IRL trains we have 200 up to almost 700 wagons 2.4km - 7.4km this train we see in the here got 264 wagons :) i think about ~130 is regular used IRL
Australian BHP Iron ore train, the longest train to ever run in the world, this train is officially in the guinness book of world records for the longest train.
The record was set on june 21, 2001 in western australia between newman and port headland, a distance of 275km (170 miles) and the train consisted of 682 loaded iron ore wagons and 8 GE AC6000 locomotives giving a gross weight of almost 100,000 tonnes and moved 82,262 tonnes of ore, the train was 7.353 km (4.568 miles) long.
BHP iron ore did this to test locotrol which is where locomotives are evenly placed along the length of the train.
The locotrol setup was 2 locos-166 wagons, 2 locos-168 wagons, 2 locos-168 wagons, 1 loco-180 wagons then the last locomotive on the back.
those are RECORDS. In europe, normal length is around 10-50 wagons.
@@llVIU yes on long distance freight trains regularly go up to 150+ in US, africa, brazil and russia at least thats the one i know of. EU's rail system is maybe not build for such long trains or just inefficient/ not needed for such smal country's
@@retlom779 In Canada normal is 150 for freight trains :)
@@retlom779 The main difference I think is that the train system in Europe (and for example Japan) is foremost built for dense passenger traffic. Cargo trains (especially during the day) have to fit in between the passenger trains, which means shorter (due to the need for frequent passing loops to let faster long distance passenger trains pass, which get more and more expensive the longer they are) but faster (so that they can at least keep up with regional and local passenger trains) cargo trains (the TGV postal in France that ran at 270 km/h from 1986 to 2015 probably being the fastest cargo train ever built). Also, Europe didn't (and doesn't) have the "luxury" of building its train network into vast stretches of sparsely settled land, it was already relatively densely populated before railways became even a thing.
Before retiring, my father worked for CN in western Canada. He told me a story of the Potash mines testing to see how large of a train they could run. They ran into issues around the 5 km/3 mile length with the knuckles between cars snapping under load.
"You can kind of see what's happening here" LMAO
only a couple of minutes in, and it's not like I haven't played factorio, but I am really struggling to understand what the hell is going on in those factories and the trains. So when you talk about "standard", this is clearly way beyond anything I've built
Indeed, I do have around 160 hours+ and I don't really know what I am doing xD infact I didn't got to purple sience even once ^^"
@@EverDarkness147 I've got into the unlimited science levels needing multiple 10k's of space science for any research and this is still way beyond my basic understanding. (that being said, a couple of weeks ago I stumbled across a fairly efficient way of rigging up science labs with interweaving belts. (something I'd never considered before and it's actually quite effective.) even if I had the file save (albeit now out of date for military science) it would take me hours to break down how it works just to even attempt to understand it, let alone duplicate it. My next step in production learning is to find a better way of mining and processing ore than the new system I'm currently using.
@@sykeassai this sounds like actual spacecraft level of real science understanding, I think my problem with the understanding of factorio is that i'm very limited of thinking and planing and I do plan way too small :D I really hope you'll find a way go get your goal more efficient than now. good luck
@@EverDarkness147 I am not sure how far you've got but if you are struggling with getting to purple this is what I'd advise as a good model, cover an entire mining field with electric drills (spaced so they won't cross over each other's area of green). run some belts together from the drills down to a place you can have 5 electric furnaces either side of the one "output belt" from the mine, and then have the two belts either side of the furnaces meet together going towards your main local assembly area, that should help with your ore mining if you don't already have something better. Or if you have roboports and drones, use a load of logistic bots transfer from the mine to the refinery and onwards using provider and requester chests. it's fairly simple but hopfully it should help? Build up area's different area's production which should hopefully flow into the next piece of production
@@sykeassai thanks alot, yeah this will help me, my biggest issue is belting or providing my belts with enough resources, but I'm really not that far in the game, I've started a new run couple hours ago. :D I do need more time to understand this game more ^^
The actual reason why this is so effective is because it effectively removes the in between time it takes for a train to leave a track section and the next train to start moving to fill it. Think of it like cars at the red light. Imagine when the light turns green all the cars accelerate immediately and the gap between them stays at 0.
Cloude But the large train is still filled up and emptied in small batches, which reduced the efficiency to somewhere between regular trains and the optimal megatrain.
I just started playing a week or so ago and have been following your beginner tutorials which are great and then I stumble upon this and my head is about to explode.
Hmm maybe I should watch some beginner tutorials aswell, completed the game a while ago but never watched any tutorials and didn't really think that far ahead into the future so the factory was a mess
I made a prototype of a station where a train comes in, and another comes in at the slot behind it. Functionally, it's like a double train station, but it services single trains.
when you use 100% of your brain... 😅
*>10%
Holy crap! And I was proud of myself for my shitty 20 SP per min :D :D :D :D !!!!!!!
No shame in that! We all started there! :D
I feel like I'm dreaming, I love this base
Now we need trains that do a complete loop from outpost to base and are permanently loaded/unloaded :D
I can't tell if this is stupid or brilliant but I instantly want to see it.
I had a megabase concept that did this using coupling/decoupling. It was a multi-stage coupling/decoupling system that went from 3-3-8 ore trains to 12-4-32 ore to ?-?-128 ore trains. The had the blueprints down but ended up not taking the final leap and am just running the 32's.
Didn't get the megabase portion up and running before 0.17 hit and haven't gotten back to it. The blueprints are down - untested, but down - but the rail network to support it isn't up and running. Also, need to finish switching the ME to the 32's.
Really awesome video man, great inspiration for people who build megabases
I made a base with a train pretty much the same size as these. (Mine is 304 car) The special thing was that this train was the only resource train I was using.
I made a reddit post about it and it was quite popular (>3k upvotes) but somehow it wasn't showing up on the reddit weekly discussions despite being the top post for one month. Now it's a little older than one month.
You can show the base too if you want.
this is beautiful.
@rybek I really love your base and base design. I also appreciate you throough answers on the comments. It answered some of my curiosities i had as well. :)
i love how the train stations look like reel on reel stuff
Dammmm that stack inserter can't pick up the science packs drive me nuts 2:50
These are some cool tapeworm trains.
Your base literally blew my mind. And those train treks, i dont even know where to start....
this isnt the poster's base
Factory must grow
Imagine getting asskicked by that monstrous train-snake, it just snaps you out of existense
The idea behind this long megatrain is production efficiency. This guy has a constant flow of ore. if you use many small trains or 5-6 trains you need to wait a long time b4 you get yr ore
Lol at "train survival power armor"
Love the trains
This doesn't make sense to me. I have the settings cranked up to the highest, and there's only a few million ore per patch. How could the small amount of patches be feeding trains that are dumping millions of ore? And really wish I could have gotten a good look at the mining setup. How could you extract ore from those patches at high enough speed to fill those trains?
Rybek, this map is amazing. Would you please share a map download so I can take a look at what's going on at my own speed?
When I research all tech in my current game I'm gonna set the ore patches to really far apart and super rich and huge using rso, so I can use massive trains. Probably not as big as these trains but still.
This looks really easy and simple to do.
Have a good one!!Very cool, thanks
Impressive train planning.
Fantastic base! ....Now concrete it :)
Is there anyway we can check out the map. Is there a save we can download anywhere
beautiful
that noise indicator was at 6:40 is from oot, hyrule intro
European feight standard trains are 750 meters long, in the US they are 2000 meters. A freight wagon is usually between 12 and 18 meter long making a euorpean freight train to be about 40-60 wagons and a US once being about 100 to 160 wagons. Granted ore hoppers is usually fairly short, some times down to 10 meters. So those trains are quite a bit larger than most real trains
Factorio wagons are really short. If one tile is one meter, then wagons are 6 meters long with 1 meter inbetween. The entire rail line put together would make IRL rail logistics engineers weep though, for sure.
@@TehRybec Well they are sort of kind of really light to.. I calculated that a full load of coal would be about 700kg. And of cause.. real trains don´t have like 20 locos.
Sadly i have not seen any game done bulk cargo correctly
@@matsv201 Real trains are also not intended to accelerate to 298 km/h in a few seconds, either lol.
It's so neat to see ❣️
Yep. I am just not smart enough to do this. But serious kudos to Wube for creating a platform with as much complexity and versatility as Factorio. I haven't even touched the mod overhauls yet.
Yeah this even pushing the limits of my abilities with all the playtime and stuff I have.
This is what makes Factorio so amazing though, that you can do stuff like this within it if you want to.
I laughed out loud when the map was first shown
6:39 Huh... That's a Zelda song. All I know is that's the beginning of the Hyrule Field theme in Ocarina of Time. Some things never stop sticking.
-my comp would fucking simulate a nuclear reactor failing
It's sad to see how solar power gradually becomes more and more useless, the bigger the base becomes. I think they should find a way to improve it.
my oil train in 0.16 does 1.2 mill and loads and unloads in 3 seconds at 60 fps, the train has 6 front engines the rest liquid logistic and 4 artillery cars on rear. i find it really hard to do multi stops for liquid logistics but realy simple for solid logistics
How to interact socially:
everyone: its easy just be yourself
social interaction in real life:
Is there are reason why your 'defense posts' are small full circle? Even when they are against the base? Usually people place towers in a straight line.
i maybe missed it but whats the portal mix playing in the background? it sounds like a bop! (lovely video btw!!)
yeah, lets just combine this 2 trains to one bigger one ... and two of the bigger to ane again bigger ... AAAAAAND two of thooooooose ....
Pretty cool, but the trains are driving on the wrong side of the road
6:40 is the sun song from the Zelda series
While I havent even come near to it I really want to get my A&B base up and running with different "levels" with their own dedicated train systems
That would be awesome! A lot of work for sure though.
Music from portal
I have a base where i used the same principle for one of my ore patches but unfortunetly when i try to load the map in 1.17 Biters anhilliate my base since worms have a greater range now
Oh no! :(
Awesome
To me these bases are something like a person who can lift 150kg weight 90k times per day. It's beyond sane human capabilities. No brain can contain that much, you gotta live with Factorio, breathe with Factorio, sleep while playing Factorio...
is there away that we can try that base too?
So it took about 2,5 months working/playing fulltime
so, we are buildings computers in our computers
Good job :D
What PC spec are you using to run this. I just starting to do megabase and my FPS is suffering with slowdowns..
Very cool base
I don't remember for sure if this was on my current PC or previous one. I think it was current one. Specs for that are:
I7 9700k
16GB 3200mhz ram with 14 Cas Latency (higher speed and low latency is super important for Factorio).
1080ti GPU.
SSD.
Hope that helps!
You should check out (Probably you already did see him) Jimorian's train (he streams on twitch), he got a pretty long artillery train:D I think like 50 wagon or so.. but its all all artillery:D it kills biter bases super fast:D
Nice that sounds really cool! I'm a big fan of Jimorians content too. :)
@@Xterminator he got a similar style train stop, where he kinda wrap up his train like a snake..going in and out in a spiral... then when his train stops he starts shooting those artillery :D
Does nobody hear the "Reconstructing More Science" from Portal 2 playing in the background? You can hear it well on 4:00. Are those programmable speakers?
Edit: Reconstructing More Science, not You Will Be Perfect
Yes, you heard correctly. I used this blueprint: www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/6arkro/extreme_song_compression_portal_reconstructing/
How come most of those wagons still had ore in them at the mega ore loading? Wouldn't you just want to wait for a train to be empty before sending it to the loading station? Or does that have to do with the fact that if you wait for a cargo wagon to empty, there's a bit of downtime when the train needs to move a bit forward to unload the next cargo wagons.
That may be why. I'm actually not entirely sure and was wondering the same thing myself.
@@Xterminator I think without mods it is not easy to determine if each stage of wagons is empty - could do a total ore count but I am pretty sure it is just timing to keep the ore flowing.
@@mrdrummer2564 Yeah it's way more important that trains keep moving than that they fully empty. If the train stuck around until it was completely empty you could potentially get trains backed up all the way to the mining outpost. Plus, particularly with the copper trains, they don't unload evenly if there's backpressure. The bots in the crossloader pull from the chests closest to the middle first and there's no way that I could find to force them to draw evenly so the wagons on the ends of each segment could take a really long time to get emptied. Plus there's only two stations in the schedule, so I'd have to plop combinators down at every single one of those train stops to read the train contents. This way I just have two station names, each set to wait the minimum amount of time to completely load or unload a wagon with all 12 inserters or 1 second inactivity.
@@TehRybec So the train schedule looks like
"copper load 1" x15
"copper unload 1" x15 ?
@@mrdrummer2564 No, it looks like "Megastation Copper 1" "Megastation Copper 2" end of schedule. Every other stop it encounters has the same name. Theoretically it could be setup to fully unload with no circuits, but EVERY stop would need a unique name. 22 per station, per ore type. That's 88 uniquely named train stops total for both ore types that would have to be manually entered into the schedule and have resource amount triggers setup-hence why I decided to go with 2 instead. I may be crazy but I'm not THAT crazy.
Do those huge trains actually make sense? I thought the max size that makes sense would be based on the size of your loading station. Let's say only 5% of the train is being loaded at any one time, if you had split it up, then the rest of the train could already be on its way instead of sitting around waiting for the wagons behind it to be loaded.
holy shit!
dude how many hours? amazing base
I haven't seen a factorio video in weeks and now just today I started playing again and TH-cam recommends me this? I didn't search anything factorio related or type anything factorio related into Google wtf.
Attack notification is from ocarina of time
Pretty sure that's a sound from legend of zelda too. 6:37
Hmm no idea what it's coming from lol
@@Xterminator th-cam.com/video/xXm_w4s1eKs/w-d-xo.html :D
@@Xterminator On the map there's a yellow marker labelled "Good morning", north of the make everything, past the solar panels near the ruins of the starter base. IIRC it's not in radar coverage, but the cyan PAX train near the make everything can take you to the "watering hole" if you want to look at it.
Inspiring :)
2:42 What Am I hearing? A lullaby???
This Melodie at 6:35 !! Is this from Zelda?? Ocarina of Time Sunrise in the Field?
So... it's a modded base and we just gunna ignore the purple circuits at 1:54?
How is this game keeping up with the performance? Has someone with a dev background a clue? Normally, a game that loads millions of items at the same time would crash instntly.
only stuff you're looking at is rendered at all; stuff outside it is simulated, afaik, and likely aggressively optimized (ie make a graph to represent what's going on, find what's the bottleneck, then you can simulate with little drop, but i doubt it's that aggressive but it is what satisfactory does)
Ahem...Ahem...Ahem...I don’t know...Ahem...maybe the Ahems get a little bit repetitive?
So this is Amazon warehouse simulator. The bugs are the unions.
可否提供一下你这个存档的下载?谢谢
Wouldn't one huge train be more efficient than hundreds of smaller ones?
Game has to calculate only one path.
Anyone tell why facotorio so optimize i run max graphic and lag never happen
German engineering at its finest.
Do people build these bases in singleplayer or multiplayer usually? It seems like such an enormous job for just one person!
single player
I'm simply astonished. Could you please share the savegame file in the comments section?
Is no one going to talk about the portal theme in the background?
Interesting game. If graphic is better i would play it.
If it looks interesting you really shouldn't be turned away just because of the graphics, you get used to it very quickly
bertha is coming back.... i hope
I have 50 hours in game, this hurts my brain
Wtf i can't do this, so many things to look, back to stardew valley now
if you put the video on 2x speed he sounds just like Ninja
wish ya had checked kills for dead cargo wagons heheh
I heard someone playing piano at 2:41, was someone playing while you were recording, or was it the combination of 192836129836 sounds from the game ?