To be honest, the end of Z always felt pretty weird. I would have been completely fine if Toriyama had redone the whole thing. Sadly, since he's no longer with us, I think Dragon Ball should just be laid to rest
we prob won’t get another series after daima but they could prob squeeze out more content by doing the rest of super and making the other movie characters canon or sum
@@amadorcortinas2749 YES. That's such a wholesome episode. I actually hated it as a kid cuz it was so different, but I love how strangely adult it feels. It's just a bunch of friends meeting for a barbeque and having fun. Krillin and Yamcha weven talk about his new car, and it's not even a funny exchange, just two grown men talking about cars. The fact that everyone's just wondering where the hell Goku is also encapsulates Dragon Ball as a whole. Goku's the one that put that whole group together, he's the glue that holds the crew in place, and that's one of the things I dislike about the actual End of Z. Are you really telling me that Goku hasn't seen Bulma in half a decade? Has their relationship really grown that estranged? It just doesn't sit well with me...
1. End of Z doesn't say if Gohan kept up with his training or not. 2. Vegeta and Goku weren't going all out in their duel since they didn't use and transformation or technique. 3. The times of peace thing makes sense since overall the time period was peaceful 4. Uub is op, his raw ki alone fueled Goku to go UI in the Moro arc.
Videl said to gohan in the anime, that he hasn't fight in in years when gohan worried about pan in the tournament and wonder if he should have joined too, So it contradicts super but it is however not in the manga so it is filler
I’m of the belief at this point, especially with Daima entering the scene, that we’re now seeing alternate timelines of what happens after the Buu arc. So far, these are the timelines I’ve counted: 1. The “End of Z” timeline 2. The “Super” timeline 3. The “Daima” timeline 4. The “GT” timeline *As a bonus, I’d even count the Z movies (“Dead Zone” all the way through “Wrath of the Dragon”) as alternate timelines. EDIT: Along with the “Dragon Ball” movies (not including Z, Super, Daima; just the first Dragon Ball series where Goku was a kid for most of the arcs) as alternate timelines.
I thought this was a very simple idea but... The end of Z came out first... Super came out a few (quite a few) years later... the ending of Z is canon, it's part of the original series. Super in its entirety is not canon, maybe the ideas in a general sense were Toriyama's but Super was written and drawed by other people. Also, Super is a cashgrab and it sucks.
Maybe there’ll be a new rewritten end of Z at the end of super, like how Z Broly and Z Bardock were rewritten during super and then seen as the “canon” versions
Hm, its almost like super is a modern day cashgrab made entirely to capitalize on the huge growing online fandom and not made organically as part of the original plan...🤔
I think the sad reality is they aren't going too adjust anything about the ending and just keep making Super series without caring about reconciling the original manga with Super. That has always been the pitfall to Super. That is why it was a mistake to set Super in between Buu's defeat and the original ending where Goku went off to train Uub. That worker when Battle of the Gods was going to be a one off movie, but reviving the series and trying to keep it set in that time frame just shot themselves in their knees and trying to tell this whole series in a compressed timeline. Now that Toriyama has passed I doubt anyone is going to want to go back to alter the manga to fit Super. Toriyama could have done that, but if anime studio or manga author tries to do it will probably face backlash. When the anime decided to create Super anime they should changed the Battle of Gods arc from the movie by setting itnafter the original manga ending and altered it by ma!ing the characters older to fit their end of Z looks, have a little Pan, and Uub as part of the party and be done with it. That way they could told a new story and not have to worry about trying to align Super with the ending of Z. This was just a shortsighted vision on their end to keep Super set in between Buu's defeat and end of Z.
Small things like goku and bulma not speaking i am ok with changing that. It just feels bitter sweet that these two childhood friends would go so long without talking especially since their sons are best friends.
Its kinda 50/50 for me, I think the Super manga aligns more with the end of Z than the anime. Since Toriyama directly confirmed its canon I reckon Toyotaro will still continue viewing it that way regardless of the obvious inconsistencies
1:00 One thing that Toyotaro did to fix this was make Uub god-tier. In the Moro arc, Uub was capable of allowing Goku to transform back into UI and create the entire ki construct by just giving him some of his energy. DBS Uub >>>> Kid Buu.
Do as Japanese people do. Everything counts. There is no point on trying to think what is canon and what is not. Dragon Ball is like Marvel now. Everything counts, Everything is part of a separate universe/timeline/path. Super, GT, Daima, Movies, end of Z. They all are seperate universes but they all have the original manga as backstory
Even if we just counted the Z revival movies as cannon (Battle of the Gods and Resurrection of F) the original Z ending makes no sense. Where are Berus and Whis? Why doesn't Goku just let Uub train with them?
I think Toriyama has tried to end Dragon Ball so many times, only to be pressured into continuing it, that nothing can really be considered part of a single continuity
If I’m being honest it really should have been like super be a continuation of z because Goku having god ki in his base and going against a 12 year old boy is crazy
It’s actually revealed in the super manga that Uub has god ki since he was born, apparently when buu absorbed Grand supreme Kai buu got his god ki as well, after buu splits into evil and fat buu it’s stated in the Moro arc that the evil buu that eventually becomes kid buu took the god ki while fat buu sustained Grand supreme Kai’s physical form, and that’s why kid buu was so powerful in Z because he retained the god ki from Grand supreme Kai and when he was reborn as Uub he kept the God ki. So in the end of Z and in super Uub has god ki already.
I don't think that's how god ki works. Goku doesn't have god ki permanently. He turns his mortal ki into god ki when using SSJ God or Blue. This used to be different in the movies, where he did indeed absorbed SSJG into his base form, but that's no longer the case once both the anime and manga decided that God would remain a transformation and not a new base form. Also, for that other comment talking about this: God ki is something that mortals have to use consciously. A mortal with god ki within them will still be using regular ki (their normal energy as humans or whatever mortal race they are) instead of the god ki. That's why Fat Buu couldn't use it until the powers of the Grand Supreme Kai awoken within him, and only then he got a massive power boost. Both Kid Buu and Uub are the same. Kid Buu was on SSJ3 level because that was the level he had after absorbing the Kais. If he knew how to use god ki, he would have had a similar power up to Fat Buu. Then Uub is going to be even below this level since he's not used to fighting in the first place, much less to using god ki or knowing it exist at all
1:07 Uub made a pretty big contribution in the Moro Arc. He recharged Goku to MUI to a point where Goku was strong enough to beat Moro and if you think about it, Uub is Majin Buu but in a weaker vessel.
Which is absurd since Goku in base form could defeat Kid Buu. At worst he'd need SSJ1. So how was Uub who should be relative to Kid Buu at best contribute more ki than Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo could?
@@Gohan9112 If Kid Buu was able to beat the Kais who managed to beat Moro and by this knowledge Kid Buu > Grand Supreme Kai > Moro Not that hard to think of, maybe Uub/Buu had more latent potential and just wasn't able to use it without the help of Bibidi's mind control
1. The bulma statement has been clearly retconned via super 2. Yes Goku should be excited to fight Uub and Uub should be able to box base Goku. DBS Moro arc made him stronger literally shown to power Goku's ultra instinct 3. For Vegeta wanting to fight Goku again even though he already beat him in superhero is because They are Saiyans who love to fight. Vegeta always enjoys fighting with Goku but this was already established in the buu saga that he matured his ego against Goku. Yes he beat Goku but they did it in their BASE FORMS + Vegeta admires Goku’s power so of course he’ll fight him again 😭 4. Bulmas design is irrelevant as there are many authors statements that superhero is building up to the final chapter so Bulma’s appearance is irrelevant. Her appearance changes a lot in short timespans as shown in Z. 5. For Gohan not keeping up with his training There’s no proof of this. Gohan just has a sleeper build 😭 6. This video can be debunked by it being a Nirvana fallacy by nature setting realistic expectations over an idolized one contradictions and inconsistencies don't define a cannon the authors do Toriyama literally confirmed that the story is leading towards this end of Z there's no debunking this its objective truth it's literally cannons Dragon Ball super you can't disprove toriyama's word 7. For the they have not had a period of Peace argument you made Time of peace could be referring to any period of time. The black Frieza saga is within the same year of superhero as it happens directly after. The time of peace in question is the 1 year timeskip after the black Frieza saga
@@Jay35513 You're right with most of these points I'll give you that but Vegeta said "Sooner or later I will defeat you Kakarrot" implying that Goku has surpassed him I never said anything about Vegeta wanting to fight Goku was inconsistent. Uub shouldn't be able to box with Base Goku. Base Goku currently in Super has drastically surpassed the likes of Buu and Uub giving energy to the spirit bomb doesn't mean he's any stronger, if he was that strong SSJ3 Goku being relative to kid Buu wouldn't make any sense. But your comment is still right despite all the inconsistencies I can't argue with Toriyama's Canon I'll give u that from now on I'll put more effort into making better videos🙏🏽
@ProbablyGoku thank You and also for the vegeta statement, he says "sooner or later I will defeat you kakarot" yes, he did beat goku in superhero but there are some issues. 1. The battle was base vs base. Vegeta would want a challenge with no limiters. He may or may not have taken the battle as 100% legitimate but even if he did, this brings me to my next point... 2. Goku has gotten way stronger than himself from his fight with Vegeta. Since Vegeta acknowledges this great power, he says stuff like "sooner or later I will defeat you kakarot" This is basically him saying that he's going to defeat Goku AGAIN after witnessing what he's capable of doing now. hes impressed and wants to keep up
@ProbablyGoku and I mean bro think about this since end of Z is 1 year after superhero and Goku is said to be the strongest in the universe in end of Z THIS WOULD MAKE HIM STRONGER THAN BEERUS 😭 so of course Vegeta is going to try to fight him again
Personally, I think that, after Black Frieza is taken care of, in a fight so grand that it shakes the Multiverse, Goku and Vegeta may lose access to God Ki somehow after Frieza's taken down for the last time, and that'll explain why they don't have God Ki in the End of Z.
Well I guess your right I mean there are technically multiple cannons in dragon ball it doesn't make sense to use the word cannon anymore I mean we got two different versions of Bardocks there's a Manga and there is also an anime . there are two continuations of dbz. different movies that contradict each other tooo many games,movies,animes,manga and etc so it's quiet confusing to understand what is cannon and what isn't
Toriyama even said himself Super has 3 different continuities (anime, manga, movies) so super isnt even canon to itself, much less the manga, why are we prioritizing this shit over the original story? Much easier to see everything as a fun AU, especially with Daima now contradicting Super as well
To all the people saying Super isn't canon: if that helps you sleep at night. Do I think Super is amazing, absolutely not, but I far from hate it, and like it like 50x more than GT. Do I think this should've been managed differently, yes. But we no longer have Toriyama to help patch things up, which is really unfortunate. #RIPTHEGOAT But nah, I wasn't confused by the title lol
Honestly, it’s better than I thought nothing toyotaro can’t tweak to fix up the story. Like for all we know goku hasn’t seen bulma since the Granola arc so the 4 years statements is fine. Uub has all the God ki from the Grand Supreme Kai so Goku knows Uub is strong. Whis and Beerus also don’t have to show up and who takes vegeta serious atp I think he’s like 3-0 against Goku anyway Also I’d say there’s relatively been 10 years of peace most of the action were tournaments or off world fights and there’s been no civilian deaths in super
Imo Toyota can tweak the story, The Granola Arc is year 781 which is 3 years before the End of Z not 4 and there's definitely NOT been peace Beerus almost destroyed earth, Freeza Did destroy earth, there was a multiversal tournament deciding the fate of their entire universe and last be not least Broly and Moro so idk how you would consider that peace
@ProbablyGoku It was never stated in the OG manga that theres been ten years of peace. That was some bs line the anime added. Plus none of the people on Earth were aware of these conflicts unlike Cell, and Buu. For the most part Earth was at peace though. Beerus never destroyed the planet, Frieza destroyed earth but Whis rewinded time technically that never happened, U6 vs U7 was harmless, Goku Black happened in the future, Earth was not even affected by the ToP, Broly happen but no one was really affected aside from Goku and Vegeta, Moro is the only one where people mysteriously felt weak but otherwise didn’t know what was going on, Granolah happened off planet, and Super Hero managed to happen in a somewhat secluded part of earth that didnt affect anyone aside from the RR headquarters. For the most part the entirety of Earth was hardly affected by these events but again it was never stated in the original manga that there was ten years of peace.
@@ProbablyGoku if we define peace time just by the fact that people of earth weren’t killed then it’s fine and it’d was a pretty peaceful time for earth since they don’t know what’s going on. Also, Goku doesn’t meet Bulma in year 781 unless Moro happens in the same year.
Its part of the original manga so it is canon like all of the rest of the manga. All the reasons you are giving are reasons Super can not be canon to the manga. If it gets redrawn or anything you suggests its still not part of the original manga so it would not change anything and just show that super cannot be canon to the original Dragon ball manga
@@xnortheast1106 it is canon to the original timeline, it is part of the manga and allways was. It is not a spinoff special or anything, so yes its canon.
@@xnortheast1106 You do realize that just because the manga has "zero consistenty", that doesn't make the End of Z "Non-canon", right?. Also, are you saying that Toriyama's original manga, you know, the one which created the franchise is irrelevant? Also, YES. It's part of the original manga, meaning it's 100% canonical. Dragon Ball Super, no matter how hard they try, is not gonna change what's in Toriyama's work.
I feel like they're going to wish from the dragon balls or Whis is gonna make it so they can relive those years after Buu'a defeat but in peace as a thank you to them for the TOP and beating Freeza. That's my thing. Ultimately just wish Battle of Gods was taken after the end of Z. Always bugged me that Super is before the end of Z so there's like no tension in my opinion because we know they end up fine.
I disagree. All the reasons mentioned here are very small reasons that don't mean much and can be fixed simply by redrawing End of Z, which is extremely likely they'll do. All of the events of End of Z still happen but all the details that were different due to EoZ being right after Buu originally would be taken out, that's all. Goku being excited about fighting Uub still makes a lot of sense in Super, since Uub IS strong, even if he's not going to be as strong as the godly forms they have. I don't think it would be like Goku to lose interest in a fight just because the opponent can't match up all of his other forms (specially considering that in EoZ he didn't even use any transformations at all). Not only that, but there's also the fact that Uub has A LOT of potential if he has the power of Buu before any kind of training, and Goku most likely knows that.
@@ForrestFox626 Probably nothing. There's really no reason at all for them to go watch a martial arts tournament on Earth, so they're simply not there during End of Z and that's it. It's also possible that, since EoZ Goku is supposed to be a master martial artist by that point, then there's also a chance he has beaten Bills and, since the prophecy of him being equalled by a Super Saiyan God would've been fulfilled, he would have no further reason to be with them and went back to sleep or something
@@ForrestFox626 What exactly? Them not being in the tournament or Beerus being defeated by Goku? I see no reason to doubt the tournamente part. They really have nothing to do there. The Goku surpassing Beerus I can understand why people would be doubtful, but it's not even a requirement for him to not be in End of Z anyway. That aside, do consider that UI Goku is stronger than Jiren and Jiren is stronger than the god of destruction of his universe, meaning UI Goku is on the level of SOME Gods of Destruction, then Black Frieza es WAY stronger than UI Goku, meaning that Frieza should be legitimately on the gods level. Point being, whatever Goku does to defeat Black Frieza should actually put him on a level at least close to Beerus. Of course, that's just speculation, so no guarantess it'll happen, but like I said, it doesn't need to.
@@Dr.Mlieko No not at all lol. A spin off is a side story. Canon refer to what is officially written by the author. It also would have to follow the work of what the author originally intended. Both manga and anime for DBZ is canon because both share the writer's involvement. Though for DBZ it also had the writer of DBZ movies and GT involvement. The Super anime is explicitly states is what screen written by Akira Toriyama and the manga before being transferred to Toyotaro as the leading author
@@Clyde975 The anime is an adaptation of toriyamas work, not made by toriyama himself, so all fillers are not canon. To say a midquel can overwrite part of the original story is ridiculous in my opinion. they just messed up and proved that making a midquel was a mistake in the first place
@Annishark I'm aware the anime is an adaptation, but Akira Toriyama was still involved in the anime. It was written by both Akira Toriyama AND the writer for DBZ movies. Not just one of them. It's also not ridiculous if the Z anime's events came before the Z manga events even started. AGAIN, I never stated it overwrites the Manga, I'm putting them on equal ground. Nothing overwrites another because both are the original canon. Canon is when an event in literature follow's the author's original intended purpose for the story, correct? Well, Akira Toriyama was directly involved in the anime's storyboard. Even in an interview when asked the question about which was more legitimate he states "anime or manga, it's all Dragon Ball"
Also in super Goku doesn't see Bulma since the tournament of power. Uub is not only kid buu reincarnation, is also the reincarnation of the fat kaioshin divine powers, so Goku probably thinks that with proper training he could have more power than him. The vegeta beating Goku thing, I think that he probably refers to a real fight. For the 10 years of peace, yeah, that doesn't make sense
1:38 to be fair it’s “weird” frieza is back at all, super does a lot of “weird” stuff And super portrays Goku and Vegeta as equals, in Z it’s never been portrayed like that And if you read the Moro arc you should know uub isn’t fodder
@@anime_world6684 i have them explaining Uub has God Ki doesn't change how strong he was. if it did then SSJ3 Goku being relative to him would make no sense
@ Goku never even used super saiyan 3 or talked about it against uub. If I missed it it doesn’t matter since uub scales to max base Goku but no other stronger transformations
well to be fair about the vegeta wanting to defeat goku again point, whis and beerus have stated in since the moro arc that goku's UI is still not perfected even with the silver hair transformation, Whis has told goku he needs to make UI his own as he's essentially copying the angels, and when goku sparred with gohan in beast form and used his UI form beerus said "so UI is still the best goku's got" to which Whis said "it would appear so" meaning goku's UI will evolve in the future. Uub has God ki now and when he used it on the moro arc Goku showed interest to one day meet the owner of such ki. Beerus and Whis not being present makes a lot of sense, they're literally gods, Whis visits often yes but it can take weeks or even months before he appears. Look it is true that the ending as it was left cannot work but it really doesn't need that many tweeks, Toyotaro himself has recently announced he will be integrating the ending soon, so we just need to wait and see.
As far as continuity goes the original Dragon Ball Manga is the original Canon all the other Dragon Ball material movies anime's super ,GT take place in alternate continuities for example super takes place in the alternate continuity where there was no 10 years of peace and there was always a constant threat GT takes place 5 years after the end of the original Dragon Ball Manga where the God of destruction never woke up no super saiyan gods instead you get more of a primal evolution with super Saiyan 4 along with many many other differences here and there between the different continuities
I think its canon its just before super and after the buu saga because in the manga i think it showed uub in the SUPER manga and in the show its after z and to top it off its called end of Z not super
I disagree about Goku and Vegeta being mostly equal in Super. That statement really only apply to ROF movie. In BOG Goku is stronger. In U6vsU7 in anime Goku had SSBKK×10 but you could say they are equal in Manga. In Goku Black arc Goku still had SSBKK×10 in anime and in Manga he perfected Blue and Vegeta straigt up admit Goku is stronger than him after defuse as Vegito. Theres no need to mention TOP and Moro so yeah they kinda only equal in ROF or you can count U6vs U7 in Manga too
and also in Granolah arc although vegeta obtained his new godly powers called ultra ego Goku is still superior to him in terms of power because he's been perfecting his ultra instinct ever since TOP and vegeta just got his hands on Ultra ego and it's most likely ultra ego is still in it's early stage and he got thrashed by Gas and goku surpassed GAS in his TUI form so that means he is still significantaly stronger than vegeta
I feel like people are missing the point of the video...that the End of Z needs to be redone to avoid plot holes and inconsistencies (I wonder when people are going to realize that the title of the video is clickbait)
The reason why end of Z had an old bulma, long time of peace and no gohan training is because it was supposed to be THE END OF Z since it was made decades ago. Whereas super will continue even after where Z ended, meaning they needed to change things (bulma looking younger, no peace and we have broly now) to make it a better continuation. What I’m tryna say is, nobody is missing the point of the video, rather there is no point to this video
@regbart it being made decades ago doesn't dismish the plot holes and inconsistencies if u write the end of a story and then later write the stuff leading up to that end there's no reason why you should have plot holes. There is a point to this video the End of Z needs to be redone
@@ProbablyGoku So you expected them to have super in mind when they wrote the end of Z decades ago? That sounds dumb dude. The ending for Z was made decades ago, meaning they didn’t think they would continue after that, so there were plot points (bulma being old, world peace etc) that fit the ending of a STORY. (Keep in mind THEY WERE DONE WITH THE STORY AT THE TIME) Super is going in a direction where the end of Z portion isn’t the end of the STORY, they’ve retconned it with Super so they could have plot points that continue the STORY. Meaning, those “plot holes” you pointed out were actually necessary changes needed to further the story after the end of Z portion. (THE END OF Z IS NOT THE END OF SUPER)
So did u not read my reply I said the End of Z needs to be redone to fit within Super. And no ofc they didn't have Super in mind when writing End of Z I'm saying if you write an end to your story and then later, write a prequel u shouldn't write plot points that make plot holes in the ending you wrote
1 min in... dbz ended over 20 years ago super started in 2016...Dbz end is the end. Super came out 20 years later to milk npc fans like you, retconing a lot in the process.
@@IndigoProphecy How am I an NPC fan in the video I'm just explaining the inconsistencies between End of Z and Super it's pretty obvious their gonna redo the End Of Z at the end of super
It obviously is a retcon, but it's not as if the arc was fleshed out in the first place, as it was only composed of what, 3 episodes? If they redo a flashed out arc that fits into the new Dragonball lore and keep the plot from the original version I don't see anything wrong with it.
To be honest, the end of Z always felt pretty weird. I would have been completely fine if Toriyama had redone the whole thing. Sadly, since he's no longer with us, I think Dragon Ball should just be laid to rest
No never let that rest bro it can't die😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
we prob won’t get another series after daima but they could prob squeeze out more content by doing the rest of super and making the other movie characters canon or sum
The true end of Z is the episode he's always late.
@@zenkai182we probably will. Or if the new seasons wont get animated, then we dont
@@amadorcortinas2749 YES. That's such a wholesome episode. I actually hated it as a kid cuz it was so different, but I love how strangely adult it feels. It's just a bunch of friends meeting for a barbeque and having fun. Krillin and Yamcha weven talk about his new car, and it's not even a funny exchange, just two grown men talking about cars.
The fact that everyone's just wondering where the hell Goku is also encapsulates Dragon Ball as a whole. Goku's the one that put that whole group together, he's the glue that holds the crew in place, and that's one of the things I dislike about the actual End of Z. Are you really telling me that Goku hasn't seen Bulma in half a decade? Has their relationship really grown that estranged? It just doesn't sit well with me...
1 thing about DBZ I couldn’t really grasp is Vegeta saying he will beat Goku one day.
HE BEAT HIM IN THE SAIYAN SAGA! Vegeta got jumped by 4 people.
It’s been stated that in Vegeta’s mind, the fact he had to go great ape and was sparred by a low class warrior means he lost
He used great ape
1. End of Z doesn't say if Gohan kept up with his training or not.
2. Vegeta and Goku weren't going all out in their duel since they didn't use and transformation or technique.
3. The times of peace thing makes sense since overall the time period was peaceful
4. Uub is op, his raw ki alone fueled Goku to go UI in the Moro arc.
Yea overall peaceful..except for an immortal god stealing Gokus body and threatening all of reality. But other than that...
@Jim-pq9pm future issues, the black arc did nothing for the present lol.
@@ACertainMan Semantics. Everyone was aware of the problem
Videl said to gohan in the anime, that he hasn't fight in in years when gohan worried about pan in the tournament and wonder if he should have joined too, So it contradicts super but it is however not in the manga so it is filler
The Manga never said 10 years has "Peacefully passed" just that 10 years has passed @@Jim-pq9pm
I’m of the belief at this point, especially with Daima entering the scene, that we’re now seeing alternate timelines of what happens after the Buu arc. So far, these are the timelines I’ve counted:
1. The “End of Z” timeline
2. The “Super” timeline
3. The “Daima” timeline
4. The “GT” timeline
*As a bonus, I’d even count the Z movies (“Dead Zone” all the way through “Wrath of the Dragon”) as alternate timelines.
EDIT:
Along with the “Dragon Ball” movies (not including Z, Super, Daima; just the first Dragon Ball series where Goku was a kid for most of the arcs) as alternate timelines.
I would love that. To do some kind of different realities plot like the MCU would be so freaking cool.
I have always count it like this lol😂
I thought this was a very simple idea but... The end of Z came out first... Super came out a few (quite a few) years later... the ending of Z is canon, it's part of the original series. Super in its entirety is not canon, maybe the ideas in a general sense were Toriyama's but Super was written and drawed by other people.
Also, Super is a cashgrab and it sucks.
I think it's still going to be Cannon however it might be modified a bit lmfao
I look at it like this, EoZ is End of Dragonball Z for me.
Super is another continuity to me.
At this point dragon ball Super should just its own separate timeline
Maybe there’ll be a new rewritten end of Z at the end of super, like how Z Broly and Z Bardock were rewritten during super and then seen as the “canon” versions
Hm, its almost like super is a modern day cashgrab made entirely to capitalize on the huge growing online fandom and not made organically as part of the original plan...🤔
Isn’t that basically what gt
I think the sad reality is they aren't going too adjust anything about the ending and just keep making Super series without caring about reconciling the original manga with Super.
That has always been the pitfall to Super. That is why it was a mistake to set Super in between Buu's defeat and the original ending where Goku went off to train Uub. That worker when Battle of the Gods was going to be a one off movie, but reviving the series and trying to keep it set in that time frame just shot themselves in their knees and trying to tell this whole series in a compressed timeline.
Now that Toriyama has passed I doubt anyone is going to want to go back to alter the manga to fit Super. Toriyama could have done that, but if anime studio or manga author tries to do it will probably face backlash. When the anime decided to create Super anime they should changed the Battle of Gods arc from the movie by setting itnafter the original manga ending and altered it by ma!ing the characters older to fit their end of Z looks, have a little Pan, and Uub as part of the party and be done with it. That way they could told a new story and not have to worry about trying to align Super with the ending of Z. This was just a shortsighted vision on their end to keep Super set in between Buu's defeat and end of Z.
What if the end of Z is cannon
But Super is it's own continuity and not exactly cannon to Z?
well they already retconned so many things they might as well retcon when end of z takes place.
Small things like goku and bulma not speaking i am ok with changing that. It just feels bitter sweet that these two childhood friends would go so long without talking especially since their sons are best friends.
very bitter sweet bulma is one of gokus first friends in dragon ball
@ arguably first
Dragon Ball Z fans when you try to figure out the canon: 😡
Its kinda 50/50 for me, I think the Super manga aligns more with the end of Z than the anime. Since Toriyama directly confirmed its canon I reckon Toyotaro will still continue viewing it that way regardless of the obvious inconsistencies
Me personally I hope Toyotaro redoes the End of Z to align more with Super
@@ProbablyGoku Toyotaro did state that he would so your hope might be answered
1:00
One thing that Toyotaro did to fix this was make Uub god-tier. In the Moro arc, Uub was capable of allowing Goku to transform back into UI and create the entire ki construct by just giving him some of his energy.
DBS Uub >>>> Kid Buu.
Do as Japanese people do.
Everything counts.
There is no point on trying to think what is canon and what is not.
Dragon Ball is like Marvel now.
Everything counts, Everything is part of a separate universe/timeline/path.
Super, GT, Daima, Movies, end of Z.
They all are seperate universes but they all have the original manga as backstory
@@DarkapostlesASMR Obviously there apart of different timelines/universes. If you watched the video I said The End of Z can't be Canon to Super
Even if we just counted the Z revival movies as cannon (Battle of the Gods and Resurrection of F) the original Z ending makes no sense.
Where are Berus and Whis? Why doesn't Goku just let Uub train with them?
I think Toriyama has tried to end Dragon Ball so many times, only to be pressured into continuing it, that nothing can really be considered part of a single continuity
Yeah, trying to fit Super, GT, End of Z and the DB Online timelines together makes no sense.
Dragon Ball continuity is all over the place being spread separately across the anime, manga and movies
If I’m being honest it really should have been like super be a continuation of z because Goku having god ki in his base and going against a 12 year old boy is crazy
@@Localtuber961 fr
It’s actually revealed in the super manga that Uub has god ki since he was born, apparently when buu absorbed Grand supreme Kai buu got his god ki as well, after buu splits into evil and fat buu it’s stated in the Moro arc that the evil buu that eventually becomes kid buu took the god ki while fat buu sustained Grand supreme Kai’s physical form, and that’s why kid buu was so powerful in Z because he retained the god ki from Grand supreme Kai and when he was reborn as Uub he kept the God ki. So in the end of Z and in super Uub has god ki already.
I don't think that's how god ki works. Goku doesn't have god ki permanently. He turns his mortal ki into god ki when using SSJ God or Blue. This used to be different in the movies, where he did indeed absorbed SSJG into his base form, but that's no longer the case once both the anime and manga decided that God would remain a transformation and not a new base form.
Also, for that other comment talking about this: God ki is something that mortals have to use consciously. A mortal with god ki within them will still be using regular ki (their normal energy as humans or whatever mortal race they are) instead of the god ki. That's why Fat Buu couldn't use it until the powers of the Grand Supreme Kai awoken within him, and only then he got a massive power boost. Both Kid Buu and Uub are the same. Kid Buu was on SSJ3 level because that was the level he had after absorbing the Kais. If he knew how to use god ki, he would have had a similar power up to Fat Buu. Then Uub is going to be even below this level since he's not used to fighting in the first place, much less to using god ki or knowing it exist at all
End of Z can only really fit the GT continuity (and maybe Daima's too) but CERTAINLY not Super's
1:07
Uub made a pretty big contribution in the Moro Arc.
He recharged Goku to MUI to a point where Goku was strong enough to beat Moro and if you think about it, Uub is Majin Buu but in a weaker vessel.
Which is absurd since Goku in base form could defeat Kid Buu. At worst he'd need SSJ1. So how was Uub who should be relative to Kid Buu at best contribute more ki than Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo could?
@@Gohan9112 If Kid Buu was able to beat the Kais who managed to beat Moro and by this knowledge
Kid Buu > Grand Supreme Kai > Moro
Not that hard to think of, maybe Uub/Buu had more latent potential and just wasn't able to use it without the help of Bibidi's mind control
@@Gohan9112I wanna see where Goku in base form could beat kid Buu because wtf are you talkin about 💀
1. The bulma statement has been clearly retconned via super
2. Yes Goku should be excited to fight Uub and Uub should be able to box base Goku. DBS Moro arc made him stronger literally shown to power Goku's ultra instinct
3. For Vegeta wanting to fight Goku again even though he already beat him in superhero is because They are Saiyans who love to fight. Vegeta always enjoys fighting with Goku but this was already established in the buu saga that he matured his ego against Goku. Yes he beat Goku but they did it in their BASE FORMS + Vegeta admires Goku’s power so of course he’ll fight him again 😭
4. Bulmas design is irrelevant as there are many authors statements that superhero is building up to the final chapter so Bulma’s appearance is irrelevant. Her appearance changes a lot in short timespans as shown in Z.
5. For Gohan not keeping up with his training There’s no proof of this. Gohan just has a sleeper build 😭
6. This video can be debunked by it being a Nirvana fallacy by nature setting realistic expectations over an idolized one contradictions and inconsistencies don't define a cannon the authors do Toriyama literally confirmed that the story is leading towards this end of Z there's no debunking this its objective truth it's literally cannons Dragon Ball super you can't disprove toriyama's word
7. For the they have not had a period of Peace argument you made Time of peace could be referring to any period of time. The black Frieza saga is within the same year of superhero as it happens directly after. The time of peace in question is the 1 year timeskip after the black Frieza saga
And end of Z is one year after superhero
@@Jay35513 You're right with most of these points I'll give you that but Vegeta said "Sooner or later I will defeat you Kakarrot" implying that Goku has surpassed him I never said anything about Vegeta wanting to fight Goku was inconsistent. Uub shouldn't be able to box with Base Goku. Base Goku currently in Super has drastically surpassed the likes of Buu and Uub giving energy to the spirit bomb doesn't mean he's any stronger, if he was that strong SSJ3 Goku being relative to kid Buu wouldn't make any sense. But your comment is still right despite all the inconsistencies I can't argue with Toriyama's Canon I'll give u that from now on I'll put more effort into making better videos🙏🏽
@ProbablyGoku thank You and also for the vegeta statement,
he says "sooner or later I will defeat you kakarot"
yes, he did beat goku in superhero but there are some issues.
1. The battle was base vs base. Vegeta would want a challenge with no limiters. He may or may not have taken the battle as 100% legitimate but even if he did, this brings me to my next point...
2. Goku has gotten way stronger than himself from his fight with Vegeta. Since Vegeta acknowledges this great power, he says stuff like
"sooner or later I will defeat you kakarot"
This is basically him saying that he's going to defeat Goku AGAIN after witnessing what he's capable of doing now. hes impressed and wants to keep up
@ProbablyGoku and I mean bro think about this since end of Z is 1 year after superhero and Goku is said to be the strongest in the universe in end of Z THIS WOULD MAKE HIM STRONGER THAN BEERUS 😭 so of course Vegeta is going to try to fight him again
@ProbablyGoku Goku literally surpassed beerus in 1 year Vegeta would of course want to try to fight him
Personally, I think that, after Black Frieza is taken care of, in a fight so grand that it shakes the Multiverse, Goku and Vegeta may lose access to God Ki somehow after Frieza's taken down for the last time, and that'll explain why they don't have God Ki in the End of Z.
Give me literally one hypothetical reason why they would lose God ki
@zzyy1934 Well, for one, someone could use the Super Dragon Balls.
It's will always be cannon in my head cannon!
@@tomdanny876 technically it's Canon to the original Dragonball Anime and Manga but it's inconsistent with Modern DB
Well I guess your right I mean there are technically multiple cannons in dragon ball it doesn't make sense to use the word cannon anymore I mean we got two different versions of Bardocks there's a Manga and there is also an anime . there are two continuations of dbz. different movies that contradict each other tooo many games,movies,animes,manga and etc so it's quiet confusing to understand what is cannon and what isn't
I think toyotaro will change some dialogue but leave things mostly the same.
So, in reality, super isn’t canon.
Super is yamcha dream😂
Toriyama even said himself Super has 3 different continuities (anime, manga, movies) so super isnt even canon to itself, much less the manga, why are we prioritizing this shit over the original story? Much easier to see everything as a fun AU, especially with Daima now contradicting Super as well
It's Somewhat Canon to Super it will probably be adapted and changed Abit to fit Dragon Ball Super
Everything in the original manga is irrevocably canon.
The eoz will go thru a lot of changes
Also oob also restored gokus energy to go pui giant form
Vegeta and Goku didn’t use Ki attacks
Mui not pui
It's canon to GT. That's it.
To all the people saying Super isn't canon: if that helps you sleep at night. Do I think Super is amazing, absolutely not, but I far from hate it, and like it like 50x more than GT. Do I think this should've been managed differently, yes. But we no longer have Toriyama to help patch things up, which is really unfortunate. #RIPTHEGOAT But nah, I wasn't confused by the title lol
Honestly, it’s better than I thought nothing toyotaro can’t tweak to fix up the story.
Like for all we know goku hasn’t seen bulma since the Granola arc so the 4 years statements is fine.
Uub has all the God ki from the Grand Supreme Kai so Goku knows Uub is strong.
Whis and Beerus also don’t have to show up and who takes vegeta serious atp I think he’s like 3-0 against Goku anyway
Also I’d say there’s relatively been 10 years of peace most of the action were tournaments or off world fights and there’s been no civilian deaths in super
I agree I don’t think there was much tragedy since Buu. Everything off world or relatively low stakes.
Imo Toyota can tweak the story, The Granola Arc is year 781 which is 3 years before the End of Z not 4 and there's definitely NOT been peace Beerus almost destroyed earth, Freeza Did destroy earth, there was a multiversal tournament deciding the fate of their entire universe and last be not least Broly and Moro so idk how you would consider that peace
@ProbablyGoku It was never stated in the OG manga that theres been ten years of peace. That was some bs line the anime added.
Plus none of the people on Earth were aware of these conflicts unlike Cell, and Buu. For the most part Earth was at peace though. Beerus never destroyed the planet, Frieza destroyed earth but Whis rewinded time technically that never happened, U6 vs U7 was harmless, Goku Black happened in the future, Earth was not even affected by the ToP, Broly happen but no one was really affected aside from Goku and Vegeta, Moro is the only one where people mysteriously felt weak but otherwise didn’t know what was going on, Granolah happened off planet, and Super Hero managed to happen in a somewhat secluded part of earth that didnt affect anyone aside from the RR headquarters.
For the most part the entirety of Earth was hardly affected by these events but again it was never stated in the original manga that there was ten years of peace.
It just said ten years pass , so they could reword it@@firionkaiser8291
@@ProbablyGoku if we define peace time just by the fact that people of earth weren’t killed then it’s fine and it’d was a pretty peaceful time for earth since they don’t know what’s going on. Also, Goku doesn’t meet Bulma in year 781 unless Moro happens in the same year.
Its part of the original manga so it is canon like all of the rest of the manga. All the reasons you are giving are reasons Super can not be canon to the manga.
If it gets redrawn or anything you suggests its still not part of the original manga so it would not change anything and just show that super cannot be canon to the original Dragon ball manga
Nah it aint canon to to og timeline and neither is super
@@xnortheast1106 it is canon to the original timeline, it is part of the manga and allways was. It is not a spinoff special or anything, so yes its canon.
@@Annishark No, it isn't canon to the main timelien there's zero to any consistencies the manga is irrelevant so no it isn't canon.
@@xnortheast1106 You do realize that just because the manga has "zero consistenty", that doesn't make the End of Z "Non-canon", right?. Also, are you saying that Toriyama's original manga, you know, the one which created the franchise is irrelevant?
Also, YES. It's part of the original manga, meaning it's 100% canonical. Dragon Ball Super, no matter how hard they try, is not gonna change what's in Toriyama's work.
I feel like they're going to wish from the dragon balls or Whis is gonna make it so they can relive those years after Buu'a defeat but in peace as a thank you to them for the TOP and beating Freeza. That's my thing.
Ultimately just wish Battle of Gods was taken after the end of Z. Always bugged me that Super is before the end of Z so there's like no tension in my opinion because we know they end up fine.
I disagree. All the reasons mentioned here are very small reasons that don't mean much and can be fixed simply by redrawing End of Z, which is extremely likely they'll do. All of the events of End of Z still happen but all the details that were different due to EoZ being right after Buu originally would be taken out, that's all. Goku being excited about fighting Uub still makes a lot of sense in Super, since Uub IS strong, even if he's not going to be as strong as the godly forms they have. I don't think it would be like Goku to lose interest in a fight just because the opponent can't match up all of his other forms (specially considering that in EoZ he didn't even use any transformations at all). Not only that, but there's also the fact that Uub has A LOT of potential if he has the power of Buu before any kind of training, and Goku most likely knows that.
My only question, what happens to Berus and Whis?
@@ForrestFox626 Probably nothing. There's really no reason at all for them to go watch a martial arts tournament on Earth, so they're simply not there during End of Z and that's it. It's also possible that, since EoZ Goku is supposed to be a master martial artist by that point, then there's also a chance he has beaten Bills and, since the prophecy of him being equalled by a Super Saiyan God would've been fulfilled, he would have no further reason to be with them and went back to sleep or something
@@cosmefulanito6854 I doubt that
@@ForrestFox626 What exactly? Them not being in the tournament or Beerus being defeated by Goku?
I see no reason to doubt the tournamente part. They really have nothing to do there.
The Goku surpassing Beerus I can understand why people would be doubtful, but it's not even a requirement for him to not be in End of Z anyway.
That aside, do consider that UI Goku is stronger than Jiren and Jiren is stronger than the god of destruction of his universe, meaning UI Goku is on the level of SOME Gods of Destruction, then Black Frieza es WAY stronger than UI Goku, meaning that Frieza should be legitimately on the gods level. Point being, whatever Goku does to defeat Black Frieza should actually put him on a level at least close to Beerus.
Of course, that's just speculation, so no guarantess it'll happen, but like I said, it doesn't need to.
@cosmefulanito6854 It's mainly because they seem like a important part of the world at this point
Only the original manga that ran in Weekly Shonen Jump is canon
easy as that
That's not how it works.
@@Clyde975 I em pretty sure that is exactly how it works, since everything else is merely a spin-off
@@Dr.Mlieko No not at all lol. A spin off is a side story. Canon refer to what is officially written by the author. It also would have to follow the work of what the author originally intended. Both manga and anime for DBZ is canon because both share the writer's involvement. Though for DBZ it also had the writer of DBZ movies and GT involvement. The Super anime is explicitly states is what screen written by Akira Toriyama and the manga before being transferred to Toyotaro as the leading author
@@Clyde975 The anime is an adaptation of toriyamas work, not made by toriyama himself, so all fillers are not canon.
To say a midquel can overwrite part of the original story is ridiculous in my opinion. they just messed up and proved that making a midquel was a mistake in the first place
@Annishark I'm aware the anime is an adaptation, but Akira Toriyama was still involved in the anime. It was written by both Akira Toriyama AND the writer for DBZ movies. Not just one of them. It's also not ridiculous if the Z anime's events came before the Z manga events even started. AGAIN, I never stated it overwrites the Manga, I'm putting them on equal ground. Nothing overwrites another because both are the original canon.
Canon is when an event in literature follow's the author's original intended purpose for the story, correct? Well, Akira Toriyama was directly involved in the anime's storyboard. Even in an interview when asked the question about which was more legitimate he states "anime or manga, it's all Dragon Ball"
For me anything other than OG Dragon Ball and DBZ, is just other contunuity. With Daima and Super's both manga and anime, DB's canon is a clusterf*ck
Also in super Goku doesn't see Bulma since the tournament of power. Uub is not only kid buu reincarnation, is also the reincarnation of the fat kaioshin divine powers, so Goku probably thinks that with proper training he could have more power than him. The vegeta beating Goku thing, I think that he probably refers to a real fight. For the 10 years of peace, yeah, that doesn't make sense
1:38 to be fair it’s “weird” frieza is back at all, super does a lot of “weird” stuff
And super portrays Goku and Vegeta as equals, in Z it’s never been portrayed like that
And if you read the Moro arc you should know uub isn’t fodder
@@anime_world6684 i have them explaining Uub has God Ki doesn't change how strong he was. if it did then SSJ3 Goku being relative to him would make no sense
@ Goku never even used super saiyan 3 or talked about it against uub. If I missed it it doesn’t matter since uub scales to max base Goku but no other stronger transformations
Ik I was talking about SSJ3 Goku fighting Kid Buu
The end of z could be 25+ years in the future maybe? Idk
That wouldn’t make sense without them still having to retcon stuff
The manga narrator mention 10 years after the Defeat of Majin Buu
well to be fair about the vegeta wanting to defeat goku again point, whis and beerus have stated in since the moro arc that goku's UI is still not perfected even with the silver hair transformation, Whis has told goku he needs to make UI his own as he's essentially copying the angels, and when goku sparred with gohan in beast form and used his UI form beerus said "so UI is still the best goku's got" to which Whis said "it would appear so" meaning goku's UI will evolve in the future.
Uub has God ki now and when he used it on the moro arc Goku showed interest to one day meet the owner of such ki.
Beerus and Whis not being present makes a lot of sense, they're literally gods, Whis visits often yes but it can take weeks or even months before he appears.
Look it is true that the ending as it was left cannot work but it really doesn't need that many tweeks, Toyotaro himself has recently announced he will be integrating the ending soon, so we just need to wait and see.
How about Super isnt canon? Why ruin the end of the old show just because the new show messes everything up?
As far as continuity goes the original Dragon Ball Manga is the original Canon all the other Dragon Ball material movies anime's super ,GT take place in alternate continuities for example super takes place in the alternate continuity where there was no 10 years of peace and there was always a constant threat GT takes place 5 years after the end of the original Dragon Ball Manga where the God of destruction never woke up no super saiyan gods instead you get more of a primal evolution with super Saiyan 4 along with many many other differences here and there between the different continuities
I think its canon its just before super and after the buu saga because in the manga i think it showed uub in the SUPER manga and in the show its after z and to top it off its called end of Z not super
Bulma said they doesn't see Goku for 5 years if I remember correctly
Or maybe super cant be canon
I disagree about Goku and Vegeta being mostly equal in Super. That statement really only apply to ROF movie. In BOG Goku is stronger. In U6vsU7 in anime Goku had SSBKK×10 but you could say they are equal in Manga. In Goku Black arc Goku still had SSBKK×10 in anime and in Manga he perfected Blue and Vegeta straigt up admit Goku is stronger than him after defuse as Vegito. Theres no need to mention TOP and Moro so yeah they kinda only equal in ROF or you can count U6vs U7 in Manga too
and also in Granolah arc although vegeta obtained his new godly powers called ultra ego Goku is still superior to him in terms of power because he's been perfecting his ultra instinct ever since TOP and vegeta just got his hands on Ultra ego and it's most likely ultra ego is still in it's early stage and he got thrashed by Gas and goku surpassed GAS in his TUI form so that means he is still significantaly stronger than vegeta
I feel like people are missing the point of the video...that the End of Z needs to be redone to avoid plot holes and inconsistencies (I wonder when people are going to realize that the title of the video is clickbait)
The reason why end of Z had an old bulma, long time of peace and no gohan training is because it was supposed to be THE END OF Z since it was made decades ago.
Whereas super will continue even after where Z ended, meaning they needed to change things (bulma looking younger, no peace and we have broly now) to make it a better continuation.
What I’m tryna say is, nobody is missing the point of the video, rather there is no point to this video
@regbart it being made decades ago doesn't dismish the plot holes and inconsistencies if u write the end of a story and then later write the stuff leading up to that end there's no reason why you should have plot holes. There is a point to this video the End of Z needs to be redone
@@ProbablyGoku So you expected them to have super in mind when they wrote the end of Z decades ago? That sounds dumb dude.
The ending for Z was made decades ago, meaning they didn’t think they would continue after that, so there were plot points (bulma being old, world peace etc) that fit the ending of a STORY. (Keep in mind THEY WERE DONE WITH THE STORY AT THE TIME)
Super is going in a direction where the end of Z portion isn’t the end of the STORY, they’ve retconned it with Super so they could have plot points that continue the STORY.
Meaning, those “plot holes” you pointed out were actually necessary changes needed to further the story after the end of Z portion.
(THE END OF Z IS NOT THE END OF SUPER)
@@ProbablyGoku and dude I’m not sure if you can even comprehend, but the way Super is going, the end of Z will be redone 💀 how can you not see that?
So did u not read my reply I said the End of Z needs to be redone to fit within Super. And no ofc they didn't have Super in mind when writing End of Z I'm saying if you write an end to your story and then later, write a prequel u shouldn't write plot points that make plot holes in the ending you wrote
why you need to disable the like and dislike?
I didn't I literally didn't do that idk why it's doing that imma try to fix it
The dislike button is auto hidden, that’s TH-cam
@@user-kr9cg5vc84 it's literally said "hidden by owner"
@@karelrindo13 ah, you’re using an extension. Who knows he could be
why does it matter
Gt, super and now daima are trash anyways
@@kaleodos Sadly I know ur not joking💔
Thats simple a wrong opinion
1 min in... dbz ended over 20 years ago super started in 2016...Dbz end is the end. Super came out 20 years later to milk npc fans like you, retconing a lot in the process.
@@IndigoProphecy How am I an NPC fan in the video I'm just explaining the inconsistencies between End of Z and Super it's pretty obvious their gonna redo the End Of Z at the end of super
It obviously is a retcon, but it's not as if the arc was fleshed out in the first place, as it was only composed of what, 3 episodes? If they redo a flashed out arc that fits into the new Dragonball lore and keep the plot from the original version I don't see anything wrong with it.
Calling him an NPCs when your comment sounds more like an NPC than anything.
They ruined the whole series tbh
@@Seditionzz wym?
@ dragonball as a whole, even the fan made mangas are better then the actual canon show
@@Seditionzz I wouldn't say that Fan made projects are good but most of them don't really represent what Dragonball truly is
@ you kidding me ? Kukamia? Gives me the lethal dbz feeling for sure , not this kid bop bullshit they got now .
@@Seditionzz Why are u pretending that DragonBall was this super serious show😭😭 and wym Kidz Bop? Please don't tell me you're talking about Daima??