The PROBLEM with Plugins - It's Worse than I Thought
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
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Some of the WORST ADVICE I've ever heard is to set your guitar interface input to where it almost clips. The official number is 12.5dBu for ML Sound Lab - so pretty much the same as most companies. My official guide has always been to use the instrument input and leave the gain at minimum - this works for most devices. As far as usability goes it's IMHO too much to ask for the end user to make micro-adjustments and I've also wondered why there is not one standard setting for these things. So the standard has been set with the most popular interfaces: UA, Focusrite etc.
It's a good thing to talk about this stuff but I would also remind people not to overly obsess about this stuff. After all guitarists are not obsessing over how true their pedal bypass is or their reamp box output or guitar cable lengths - all of which have a similar effect. How many of you guys are plugging your guitar directly to the amp input with a short cable to get "the designed sound"? That's how I do things by the way but people look at me funny when I do it. 😄
Also the thing is that there's a lot more that goes into all this stuff in regards to actually modelling a real amplifier. Just think about the mistakes an amp sim company can make when modelling an amplifier. Has it ever felt like the most iconic tight amp in existence sounds like flubby fuzz pedal as an amp sim even if it's from a well respected plugin maker? So who guarantees all these amp sim makers are doing it correctly when they're modelling the amps? I for one stopped using any kind of loadbox for amp sim making quite early on which I think is still the way many big amp sim companies do these things. The difference between a matching 4x12 vs a loadbox impedance can be literally a dozen dBs in brightness but more importantly the low end tightness of the amplifier is way off if you're not using a real guitar cabinet for making the amp modelling. No amp knob tweaking can change this - it's baked into the entire plugin. So I would highly recommend users to also have a little bit of criticism towards the amp sims they're trying out. If it sounds off - there's a chance that it's off.
I need to stop writing. 🤣
The last line hits the most.
If it's off, there's a chance it is off. :D
I found it to be most true with brainworx plugins.
Its nice to see plugin users finally admitting that the technology doesnt sound or feel right.
it matters a lot to me, because i want my Helix Floor presets to sound the same in Helix Native. SInce my tones are very volume dependant (EOB and compressors at specifik threshold values), i want to get as close to the Helix Floor input level AND maintain difference between my Strat and Les Paul and the outputs of the pickups.
With plugins becoming more and more important (and maybe even dethroning real amps one day) there really should be an industry standard, so that end users can expect the same performance (in terms of level) from every interface. A high impedance input can be anything right now.
Something like a guaranteed impedance (not just resistance) and a fixed sensitivity / conversion factor (dBV to dBFS) should make everybody's life much easier - including the plugin developers.
Maybe AES might be interested in getting involved. 🤔
Awesome. And I’ll, personally, choose the shortest cable possible if it’s handy, too.
You’re right, though: it’s hard enough for a lot of players to dial in a great tone on a physical real world amp or pedal. That’s why some will choose a Marshall 800 over a Boogie Mark V. Add the intricacies of the plug ins and interface interactions and we may as well be planning our next trip to the moon.
Interesting that you’d mention the “flub” factor. I sometimes catch myself making so many adjustments that I have to take a break and ask if there might be something wrong with me. I mean: can you imagine!?
(“Well…now they you mention it, Bob…”)
I'm pretty surprised people didn't expect this was the case. And it was definitely something that was talked about often and openly 25 or so years ago when the first modeling plugin started coming out. If you think about it, it's no different from an amplifier. Set your Marshall for a clean tone with a Strat, and then plug in a Les Paul with humbuckers. You're now in a completely different world. Why would it not matter how hard you're hitting the plug in on the front end? And this doesn't just include amp modelers. ANY sort of a plug-in that's modeled after a real life piece of gear is going to have this sort of a calibration requirement. From rack gear all the way to virtual microphones. You can't mash the front end of analog rack gear. Why would you be able to mash the front end of digitally modeled rack gear?
Yep, but it’s taken a ton of arm-wringing of plugin vendors to even talk about it. IK Multimedia in particular refuses to even comment on it. Hopefully if all the other vendors finally bend, IK will be forced to address it.
@@400_billion_suns ... so is there no info re these levels re IK Multimedia / Amplitube / Tonex products?
@@400_billion_suns I definitely think some direction from manufacturers would be helpful. But my experience tells me it's super situation dependent. Guitar pickup outputs are all over the place. Generally speaking, there's no advantage to tracking hot to digital. Digital recording gives so much room for error in gain staging. Analog isn't this forgiving. It should be no surprise that analog emulations are less forgiving, just like their real world counterparts. Simply introducing the idea that input level matters should really be enough for us all to figure out what works best for us. It's just one knob (input level). Turn it up. Turn it down. See what sounds better. Done. In the end, you gotta rely on your ears. Any notions of perfect accuracy just isn't realistic. If someone is building a preset, true accuracy would mean a literal identical signal chain. A '58 Strat instead of a '64, through a SSL instead of a Neve preamp... it's never gonna be identical.
A lot of us didnt expect this was the case because prominent youtubers have been telling us how to set up interfaces wrong all this time, Im not an audio engineers or interface maker, so thats all I had to go off as many also have. Now seeing this info I could really slap a few faces...
@@BBGuitars it really is a drag this is where we find ourselves. I totally understand how musicians just wanna get to making music. I'm terrible at falling for this trap. But dammit, skipping engineering fundamentals is like skipping theory class. Eventually it's gonna catch up to ya. Especially in this case. 99% A/D converters don't benefit from peaks over -12dB. I pretty much shoot for somewhere between -18 and -12dB. Sometimes a touch lower. It's digital. The noise floor is almost non-existent. Track quiet. Basically day one of audio engineering is, 'if you're tracking to tape track hot, if you're tracking to digital track quiet, refine as necessary'. Oddly enough, if you're tracking between -18 and -12, it's just about perfect for Amp Sims, Mic Modelers, your favorite 1176 Emulation, Etc. Do you mind me asking which YT peeps are suggesting folks track hot to digital?
Search “gain staging” and there are loads of videos explaining that setting gain “max before clipping” is from the days of analog. In digital systems, advice varies but is typically in the -10 to -18 range. My understanding is that many plug-ins that model analog gear (compressors, eq’s, etc.) are also work “best” when they see a certain level of input gain. I.e if you are recording in a DAW, this issue of input gain isn’t exclusive to guitar modeling.
Analog gear uses a different scale anyway. Usually you want something between -3db and +3db. +10db is when you really get into trouble. I think 0db == -18db in the digital world. Or something like that.
@@ltxr9973 I think you're pretty much dead on. Analog unity is 0vu which is about equal to -18dbfs rms.
This is also why a lot of guitar players like to have a "clean boost" on the front end of their amp!, actually most guitar amps have way more headroom on their inputs than what the pickup will deliver and that's why some magically transform their sound for better once a booster is put on the front end, like Klon Centaur and such, so after all is not that bad to have a little gain on your interface as that will act like a "clean boost", it won't be accurate to what the manufacturer intended but neither they did care to inform their users how to properly calibrate their input levels, I tried adjusting the levels to those 12.5 dB of headroom and some plugins like Overloud THU or Neural DSP indicate on their "calibration" that the input is "too low", I whish however be able to match my input levels on my HX Stomp and Helix Native because with the suggested method here is now lower and weaker on Helix Native, presets don't sound the same, so I went back to the sweet spot I found by trial and error which is around 6dB of headroom on my interface
I guess in that sense audio interfaces are the wireless receivers (Angus) and tape echoes (Blackmore) of today.
You can warm your baby's bottle on a tube amp; Tube Amps 1, Modelers 0.
All plugin manufacturers doing any kind of modeling should publish their expected normal input level. Many plugin manufacturers standardized on -18db to roughly emulate the older tape units and VU meters.
Respectfully, the interface considerations are related, but getting a low noise signal in, like setting the input on an axefx, is a completely separate consideration from gainstaging considerations within the box.
Cheers all, D
Erm, except perhaps where an interface is highly coupled to software in the box. IK Multimedia comes to mind.
@@rockstarjazzcatIK use different specs across all their interfaces though, and their amp sims all use different reference levels too. So in theory they could have set an excellent example but they’ve made a total mess of it
I noticed that, when recording Helix dry signal (usb 7/8) , reamping by Helix works very well, BUT, if I try to reamp by Helix Native, the input signal is very poor and weak. I have to boost it up 6dB to have the same tone I have on the Helix 😮
I also wonder if this affects plugins such as those that emulate analogue microphone preamp plugins. If I want to use a Neve mic preamp plug-in, where do I set the gain on my interface?
I might have bought a Tonex one day. And then you mentioned that the amplitube software used different baseline input levels for different models... And just like that, I'll never buy a Tonex. It happens that quick.
The Tonex suffers less from this than the older Amplitube stuff but still some are a mess (partly because so many of the sounds are from users rather than IK Multimedia).
Also the advice that Tonex gave when they first launched caused no end of confusion....a shame because IF you get the levels right it's a nice unit. 😐
@@ThePlanarchist No issues with tones while using _professional_ captures provided by tone partners in my case. I pushed input trim a bit but it definitely acts as expected on default 0. What saved me with TONEX that you have both - software AND pedal. And in software there are "demo sounds' you may click just to check model without grabbing your guitar. These various "sound tests" always played at "factory zero" input level whatever your settings are. So you hear the model _exactly_ as it supposed to sound with _expected_ input level. I plug my guitar, and play something similar to "test sample" and check if it fits with demo. And I adjust input level until it starts to sound almost identical (in sense of gain/crunch/edge/overdrive). My tonex pedal is set to +3db and sounds exactly as software version with -12.2-12.5 level input (over another audio interface but the same cab).
But this is a problem with plugins. The only way you may check if you feed enough input is to check official video on TH-cam with exact preset activated and compare.
Antarctica is the world’s largest desert, but John once made a foot-wide profiterole which is also pretty big.
Guitar and choux pastry wizard!
Ooh I love profiteroles.. But what’s the difference between a big profiterole & choux bun..? Is a small choux bun the same as a small profiterole? Why are there so many tube screamers & Klon clones? …I’m so confused 🙃
@@planzed.2Tubescreamers are for people who haven't discovered the big muff yet
@@jasondorsey7110 😂👌 yes! ..my first pedal was a big muff, I never actually owned a tube screamer. What was your first pedal? (not a tuner)
@@planzed.2 My first pedal was a dod 250 overdrive/preamp, next was a rat, neither one satisfied me so I bought a sovtek big muff, the green russian one, new in the fingerjointed wooden box for $59, which I loved but got stolen...I see they're quite a bit more than that these days, but the ram's head reissue muff foots the bill quite well
After seeing you initially video on the subject I put my Focusrite in high -z and zeroed to input gain. Totally cleaned up the sound.
Hoping someone can clear this up for me, because setting the input gain so low on the interface would make my DI tracks terribly quiet to the point it might make them hard to work with since sometimes I'm sending the dry stems to someone in addition to the effected ones. Could I not accomplish setting the levels similarly by setting the input on my interface to a usable dry signal, then just lowering the input in the plugin drastically? If it works out to the same result, does it matter if the decrease in input gain happens more on the plugin rather than the interface?
You could, but it will be likely be different each time you do it - if you dont really care about that, then i dont think it matters that much. But i need my Helix Floor sounds to sound the same on Native, and i dont want to calibrate my input gain for 10-30 min everytime i sit down to record/play.
Great question, I was wondering the same
That's definitely an option, one you send a DI track to an engineer it's kind of up to them what they do, and likely they'll be processing them through either other plugins to you or reamping in which case all bets are off anyway?
@@johnnathancordy I also tested it out based on the sheet since my interface was listed on there. Worked phenomenally and definitely easier to set it and forget it without messing with the software or hardware input settings
this is actually the way to go to achieve best noise performance. If you record low and amplify the signal in the plugin, you're also amplifying the noise. If you record hot and turn down to the same signal, you're also turning down the noise so your overall noise floor will be lower. This is the reason why it has been standard for analog recording and it still applies to digital.
One thing that guys who make presets can do is to indicate what input boost you used for your preset (i.e., I used a Focusright with zero boost for this preset, which equals Xdb, so set your interface accordingly) so that we will be recreating the same thing you are selling.
A big thank you and Ed for bringing this under attention. I hope more influencers are following and do the same. Maybe when it's getting a big enough of an issue the companies of amp sims will listen. I want accuracy when I buy amp sims. Some of them are not cheap in the first place and I want to know how they were designed and mimic the sound of the real amps they are modeling with proper gain values. The last few days I tried my Neural amp sims with this new way of working. The tone I get out of them is more realistic (Toneking Imperial ) in comparison with the real thing. When trying out the artists presets its obvious that they didn't all followed this guideline. I'm glad Mateus Asato also mentioned this in one of his Archetype videos. Most of us are amateurs,home recorders and bedroom rockers. Saying set your input levels so that it's sounding good is the same as throwing someone in the water and tell him to learn how to swim without giving him proper guidelines.
Who is Ed. Would love to read his stuff
@@mikelantunez, he's mentioned in the video.
@@mikelantunezI am Ed
Thanks for doing the work ! :) @@eds4754
the advice to set the levels just before clipping comes from the analog world and really there is no need to apply that with digital stuff. in the world of plugins for mix and mastering is already pretty known that for plugins that simulate analog equipment the level to aim for is something around - 13dbfs because that would be corresponding to 0dbu of the analog vu meter for the infamous "hottest level before saturation". it's pretty weird that guitar plugin companies don't make that clear for their stuff.
I just tried this and it definitely makes neural dsp plugins sound better. I actually want to use my Tone King plug in now. The first time I used the plug in I set the audio interface slightly breaking up with hard strums and it sounded awful. Hopefully more people see this
Tone King sounds amazing now, but the cleans are incredibly low in volume. Did you manage to get around that without raising the output knob way up?
don't be afraid of turning up the output on clean presets. Totally clean sounds are so dynamic/uncompressed they always will sound lower in volume than presets that have a little breakup on them. @@RafaMuntean
@@RafaMuntean I have never been able to figure out why Tone King is so much quieter than all my other plugins
Anyone else have trouble digging out the fine details of what he's saying?
For instance, when you say for UA set to 0... are you talking about in the Console software? At what calibration? (Their guitar input adjusts to the amp model by design.) So many variables.
Basically, I get that you're saying that people are running in too hot., in general. That's easy. But more details are needed.
Sounds like a deeper discussion needs to be led by someone who can speak to this with clarity and authority... and detailed specifics.
Thanks for getting the ball rolling.
.... agree. 5 concise minutes would go a long way here, rather than 15 mins of rambling
th-cam.com/video/jXKZqJtjLkg/w-d-xo.html I did point you to this in the comments.
That's certainly an option too - but for example in Neural DSP plugins the Input gain is saved per preset, so you'd be adjusting for every single one. For me, especially as someone using low output single coil pickups, it's now very obvious to me why I've had issues with plugins - to get close to clipping, I need to boost my signal by around 13db....And that's pretty obviously wild!
@@johnnathancordyI’m trying to decide where I want to go with this rabbit hole. I have several Neural plugins and between artist presets and my own presets, this is a royal pain in the butt to switch them all over. And if I get a new interface down the line, the headache will only grow. Neural needs a global level control
Glad to see this issue getting so much traction and support. It's not a new discovery but every time I brought it up I'd get legions of forum boomers trying to gaslight me into thinking it doesn't matter. No response will make them budge from "Pickups have different output levels so it's the same with real amps!" Absolutely infuriating. Sorry if I've never used a god damn Bassman and don't know what volume level would cause breakup with a Strat pickup.
With neural DSP plugins it's just a matter of finding the right baseline (12.2 dBu), but with Amplitube 5 (which i have), it's calibrated to 1V=0dBFS, but then there can be difference between amps. It's absurd that not all amps are calibrated to the same baseline level. At least neural DSP is doing that right.
My uncle worked for KORDA, the Uzbek institute of music. He claims the proliferation of individual peaks and valleys dispersed is standardized among modeling infrastructures and settings are kept threadbare for transparency between ambulatory namintzes. Basically to keep costs down so the caliphate won't interrupt production during lent.
Pretty sure that should clear things up for yall.
Came to the comments section to mention this same thing.
Wait wait wait... you lot didn't know this? smh. How? How long have you all been using modellers / plugins?
EDIT: Do not worry if you set it wrong when recording, if you recorded entirely dry that is. Because you can add a gain plugin to set the level after the fact as long as it didn't clip, and even if it did, if you are using 32bit FP you can always recover the peaks. Of course, this only really applies if you have a super clean and uncoloured preamp signal. Most modern digital preamps even on the lower end of price are waaaay clean. lol. Read the specs.
Well how about this:plugin makers make their unity input level as the ideal input level of the amp they model and we just have to worry about proper gain stage on the interface, that would make everyones life easier !
What is the big deal? You choose an amp which is capable of pristine cleans (a Fender Twin Reverb for example), and if it is doing pristine cleans with gain around 2, your input is fine. If not, lower your input. It is not that complicated actually.
That doesn't sound particularly accurate does it
Why not John? Think of the real amp. If you plug in to a real Twin Reverb, it gives you pristine cleans at volume around 2 if you are using a let's say Strat. So if your plugin Twin Reverb is acting the same way, then your input level is fine. If not, you should lower it. What am I missing here?
It's been a huge pain in the ears. I hear people doing input stage gain wrong (big channels) so often. I even commented on a channel about it because it was a review of a plugin and it was obviously clipping the input gain. But really, it's so variable, just set it so it sounds right to you.
For me, when I start hearing that high-end, frying ozone sound, that's too much. Most of the plugins need a bit more headroom though.
God help who are using tonex as a plugin. Now we also have to guess what the guy who captured the amp intended us to use.
Yep. Tonex is amazingly capable, but the lack of any kind of standard reference for capture levels means that results will be wildly inconsistent across users. IK refuses to discuss this and has even deleted posts in their user forums about it. They’re aware-they just want to make it go away by ignoring it.
I think what you've run into here is what we on the "engineer" side of audio call "Gain Staging". It's an issue with all kinds of analog modelled plugins, not just amp modellers. DAWs allow you to run your recording session hot because digital clipping doesn't happen in the same way as clipping in the analog world. Once analog modelling got accurate enough to behave like analog equipment, gain levels became an issue. But the solution isn't difficult. Most DAWs let you set where your "0" point is on your fader, so most of us work with our faders set to -12dBu or even -14dBu. That way when we're tracking, we can tickle the yellow just like we would on an analog mixing board and we won't be hitting much above -10.
It is kinda the same problem that people have had with Global settings, which can muck up the sound. And the fact that people do not want to read manuals, it makes no sense that people just want to make it work, without reading some kind of manual.
I agree with the RTFM. But there are not many manufacturers that tell you about this stuff how to setup your input level and almost always tell you to do it by ear🙈 And that is wrong. How should I know how their models should sound with my guitar(s)?
I’m totally confused about the companies perspective on this. If it’s true that we should set input gain to 0 on the interface why have companies been telling us incorrect information? Surely they want the consumer to get an accurate representation of their work
You'd think - speaking to Edward, it's more an issue of not speaking directly to the Engineers who make the plugins - so you end up chatting to support or marketing or something.
Also it's definitely flying right in the face of the general notion that we need to have signals into an audio interface be as loud as possible before clipping - which is basically good gain-staging advice for EVERYTHING else except this use case?
they have not been telling you incorrect information. Ed and John are on the incorrect track here. Gain staging is a thing and just adjust your digital level in the plugin if you need to turn it down.
It's true on many modern interfaces the preamps are good enough that it virtually doesn't matter, but it does on older/cheaper ones and with increasing post processing noise inherently gets worse so starting "right" at the beginning is a good idea to keep the noise at minimum.
People are always claiming that plugins sound like real amps but now we're learning people didn't even have their input gain set correctly. Makes you wonder how close plugins actually are.
Point is there's no "correctly" for input gain - the companies in general seem to be like...Uh....It's up to the user...
Or reversely how not that important the input gain is. This guy is over-worrying, it's about the sound you get. Lots of amps on songs you hear are just plugins and lots of guitars you listen to at live shows are just passing through digital hardware modellers. It can sound great with or without the absolytely "correct" gain
If you have musical ears you already know. Also tube amps had to be set first. It's the job of the guitarist to fiddle with knobs until it sounds good.
was just reading the brand new tonocracy plugin guide, which is for free btw, and they seem to have taken over your advice!
Quote: “There is some "common wisdom" that you should turn up the analog gain control of an instrument input until you have a signal that is peaking within a certain range. For modern pro or semi-pro audio interfaces this is usually unnecessary, and it is better to leave the gain at zero to have a known reference, and avoid any possibility of clipping”
Cranking your interface gain is just free fuzz.
all the homies love Ed
I would also like to add that profilers such as NAM rely on end users to make the profiles. This is another place where the proper gain for emulation can be troublesome as a target. Thank you for the content :)
Its 2024 how is this only getting rhe word out now. Ive been smashing every pluginpreset with boost like an idiot. I mean they werent bad but definitely can look back and see how some were too gainy.
This is why I just can’t do the digital thing anymore. Too many variables for me to deal with and not really “know” if it’s correctly set up. I’m back to amps and pedals; not worth the trouble imho.
I’m on iPad, and I mostly avoided the iPad modelers because I couldn’t get sounds I liked out of them. So I’ve stuck with hardware pedals and modelers. After your last video and doing some experiments with my Minifuse input gain starting on zero (but with the instrument level button engaged), I finally got some good results.
I also use a minifuse and just found out that i get better results (to my ears at least) with gain really close to zero
This is what makes stl amphub good.There auto input feature solves this problem.People sleep on amphub and it is seriously so good
Setting your interface as close to clipping as possible is about getting full dynamic range out of your digital recording. If I understand the issue properly, the best solution would be to set your interface as close to clipping as possible and then use a volume device in the DAW plugin chain before the amp model to reduce the level to -13db or whatever is appropriate for the sim.
Setting the interface higher actually reduces your headroom before clipping?
@@johnnathancordy Headroom at what stage? Before clipping what?
The issue is the signal level at input of the amp sim, and that can be handled in your signal chain in the DAW by putting some kind of basic volume control device before the amp sim. With 32 bit audio the dynamics benefits you're getting from a loud recording vs a slightly quieter recording are minuscule but if you want to take advantage of the full dynamic range of 32 bit audio while still sending your sim the level it wants to see, the way to do it is to set your interface for max level before clipping and then handle the signal level going into your amp sim in the DAW.
@@Michael-xr5yx
Setting your gain on your audio interface above the minimum is reducing your headroom before clipping the input of the audio interface.
Assuming that most manufacturer specs are within the similar range that Ed S has showed, at minimum you're already significantly above the self noise floor of the interface?
You'd also be adding pre-amp colouration if that's a consideration?
For me it's a big of a change in approach and it sounds like you know WHY you'd be doing these things, for other folks, setting the interface to minimum is more likely to avoid the issue of UN-KNOWINGLY adding easily +12db more of gain than their guitar would be sending into a normal amp or modeler?
Digital has all the headroom in the world. Try recording twice - at minimum gain and near clipping gain. Then even out the low signal in post to match volumes and A/B the clean DI signal results. Same dynamic, same noise level, no colouration. At least I can’t tell the difference and I’m sure You wouldn’t in the mix. So unless upping the gain on interface preamp solves some issue (like floor noise), keep it at minimum and adjust in “digital realm”, where You can’t clip it.
@@Michael-xr5yxSNR is only as good as the highest noise in your signal chain. Guitar pickups pick up a LOT more noise than any interface, so the noise you’d be trying to escape by tracking close to 0 gets swallowed into the overall noise that is much louder.
If you boost your DI signal, you are just boosting all your background pickup noise too so there is going to be no noticeable improvement to your SNR.
All you do is lose the relationship between loud and quiet pickups because they get normalised to the same, and you have to guess the correct level to use with plugins (unless you measure with a multimeter each time you adjust gain).
Interfaces are generally spec’d with optimal headroom with gain at 0. 12-15dBu will generally be very hot with humbuckers already. A few dB either side of this really won’t make an appreciable difference.
This was such an eye opener for me. Thanks for sharing. I was so excited to test this out I got out of bed last night and fired up my rig!
If you are going to use an Artist’s preset, should you go back to turning up the interface since that is likely what the Artist used developing the preset?
Is it different for the Kemper et all... I tried this out on my kemper in terms of turning the input volume on my Tascam 4x4 interface to zero but had to go to the main input on the kemper rig manager and turn that way way up from where I normally set it to hear anything worthwjile to record in the DAW (Cubzse pro 9). Sounded ok but couldn't believe where I had to set it. Now going to try a compromise in that I'll start to increase the input / gain volume on the interface by very small increments and turn down the input volume on the Kemper to see what difference this might make. I have been farting around for years with this issue as a lot of the Kemper 'rigs' don't sound that good through the DAW although they are usually great through the head phones when plugged direct into the kemper. Which was why I bought the bloody thing in the first place...!!
If you just plug into the kemper direct then you don’t need to worry.
If you use the Kemper as an interface for plugins or recording DI’s or reamping then it matters.
The default settings on Kemper are 5dBu of headroom which is VERY easy to clip. I’d recommend changing clean sens. to -7dB and reamp sens. to +7 and then your DI’s will have 12dBu of headroom, and the reamp chain will match and be calibrated.
This is all news to me. I’ve struggled with plugins for years. I mostly just don’t use them unless I have to, but this is making me think I need to give them another chance.
This got me thinking about my input gains on modellers after your last video. Spent a few days trying TMP with -6dB pad turned on it will be staying on models sound clear and natural and less forced both edge of breakup and gain tones. Really like it … live and learn
Is this why most amp plugins seem to sound over the top with distortion?
Hopefully you or someone else doesn't remove this response or mark it as spam as in the earlier vid (which I can't find at all) because the information is contradictory. The advice to set the interface gain close to 0dBu w/out clipping the input is sound because all audio equipment is designed to operate optimally at line level, and this is just basic sound engineering. The purpose of any preamp that would occur in any system including guitar amps is to raise mic/instrument level to line level. Bringing signals to line level is even more important in digital as that provides a signal at the highest resolution furthest away from noise. Hence, to capture the dry guitar signal we do wanna bring it as close to 0dB w/out clipping the A/D. Now if the design of a plugin is to accurately simulate a guitar amp and the plugin needs to be fed an instrument level signal just as an amp would be at its input, then post A/D use software trim to attenuate the signal back to -30dB or wherever to get to get that sound. But capturing at the A/D an instrument level signal gives a far from optimum signal to work with that has so little dynamic range and is that much closer to being noise. Digital gear is not a guitar amp and the two have divergent signal workflows.
Noise from the interface isn’t an issue here because the background noise into pickups is SIGNIFICANTLY higher. Roughly 12dBu is chosen as an appropriate headroom because it’s already a perfect signal to noise ratio for any guitar or bass. If they needed more headroom, they’d spec a different value.
Kemper use 5dBu and Fractal use 17.5dBu - it really won’t make a big deal to your noise.
Also be careful not to confuse 0dBu with 0dBFS, they mean very different things. 0dBu only exists in analog, 0dBFS is only in digital
@@eds4754 We're still working in the analog domain before the A/D, and that's where we do want to optimize the signal level for digital conversion. Yes, what's more of an issue is instrument noise than the interface's signal to noise ratio, and we do have some high resolution working A/D converters w/24-bit and up bit depths. We would still wanna operate w/in the system's optimum operating level. Point is, the issue identified with the use of plug-ins isn't solved by gain staging for instrument level from the interface and throughout, but simply to capture the hottest level w/out clipping the A/D, then attenuate the digital signal so that the plug-in that simulates the behavior of a guitar amp, including the need to receive a guitar level signal, gets that signal at the properly set level.
@@MrVyrtuoso The point of the discussion is about calibrating for different converters. It’s not about the guitar signal level - there should be no noise issues from the input chain when recording guitars at 20dBu or 5dBu. Knowing your input headroom is more useful than not knowing it.
@@eds4754 Yes, I'm not in any way negating or contradicting the work you put into coming to that knowledge and finding out how incredibly variant this would even be not just from plug-in to plug-in but potentially from model to model w/in the same plug-in. What I was contradicting is the assertion that setting interface gain so that the signal is close to 0dB w/out clipping as OEM's typically instruct is bad advice, which it is not for the reasons that I said. If that is hijacking the discussion towards an off-topic direction, then I do apologize for that.
@@MrVyrtuoso Ah I see, no worries. Yes, I think its good to be aware of signal to noise ratio but its only really important if the source you are recording has less noise than the medium you are recording to. More of an issue for tape and 16 bit. Maybe in this topic of guitar DI's it leads to more problems than what it solves.
Are we talking sample peak or average volume like rms or dbvu? Because shooting a sine wave would have the same average level and peak level, correct? But the dynamic range of a guitar signal is going to be a lot more variable in its sample peak. If I have an average volume of -12.2 on the digital vu the sample peak would not be terribly far from clipping in many cases.
it’s neither. It’s the headroom of the interface, not the level of the signal.
You can measure the headroom by running a 1Vp (0.707V RMS) sine wave into your input and using the dBFS level of the sine wave in the DAW to calculate your headroom. With the headroom NDSP use, the level of this sine wave is -13dBFS. It has nothing to do with guitar peaks or VU’s or anything.
@@eds4754 Michael Scott: "Why don't you explain this to me like I'm Eight"...Furrows his brow in a vain attempt to understand ..."Why don't you explain this to me like I'm Five"
Wow, I could swear my guitar sounded better with the interface gain set to 0, but since everyone suggested cranking up the volume, I thought I must be mishearing things. Turns out I was almost spot on the "optimal" gain value ( just 0.8dBu off ). Trust your ears, people !
Most modern plugins and profilers have a different amount of simulated "amplification" between plugins. You have to set them by ear. My process is pretty simple, I delete all the presets and dial in a crunch tone.
1. Turn guitar volume knob to full and input gain on audio interface near zero or in the -30dbfs range on DAW
2. Set EQ Flat
3. Turn off boosts/efx
4. Dial in the max amount of gain I would use with volume knob maxed
5. Adjust gain knob on interface until I can roll back the volume knob on guitar to clean up sound
6. Set up any boosts to the slightly rolled back tone
7 . Effects to taste
Are you shure you don't need to switch the order of 4 and 5? How can you know how to set the gain on a model if you still have to setup the correct input level on your interface?
@@carlos_castanaut good point. To be fair, its a little bit of a dance between them, especially for Profiles.
Sorry, what's this got to do with a bass line?
Also sorry...couldn't resist.
Also, and not sorry this time, as much as it should probably be standardised somehow (the input level/gain) it shouldn't matter that much if you are happy with the sound that comes out at the other end.
It's definitely a reason that some folks are NOT happy with the sound coming out of the other end though!
That’s interesting because my instinct with amp sims was always to start low and bring it up cause I noticed so many presets were clipping the first time. I’ve never started with high preamp gain and backed off. My MOTU M4 position I use most of the time ranges from 9 to 12 o’clock. But according to these videos I’m wondering if that’s too high still 🤔
Why are pickups not being taken into the equation?
Because pickups are the variable that you can't account for. Calibrating the input would mean that just like an Amplifier, the accuracy doesn't change depending on what guitar you plug in.
@@johnnathancordy yeah but fishmans clip the input of the Scarlett hard. No matter how much you turn it down in the plugin, it’s clipping the converters. In the analog world that’s fine but in this situation you would need a di box to lower the signal. That’s why fractal and line 6 have input pads to account for this clipping.
@@kevinwhite6172 Again though, that's the variable that we should keep - the rest should be controlled.
If the Fishmans are clipping the input that hard, even a -6db pad might not be enough - so what then?
@@kevinwhite6172The active pickups are probably close to link level voltage. So you sure you dont use high Z config. on that port? The other option is the internal AD ref. voltage is quite low to handle active pickup level.
just set my gain at zero on my scarlett and all my plug ins now sound much better ML sound lab and neural dsp and stl amp hub
STL plugins need 6dB more gain than NDSP FWIW
So I followed this advice and agree my plugins (Neural) sound much better. Problem is, all of my user presets are fu*ked up, and need recalibrating.
I just use a VU meter plugin pre vst. Will this not achieve the same thing?
no, because the VU meter shows you the peak signal of the guitar, not the headroom of your interface. You want to avoid setting a single coil to the same level as a humbucker
I'm not sure I understand why this is a problem, nor why it merits a video with the apocalyptic sounding words "it's worse than I thought" in the title. Surely you just adjust the input gain on your audio interface and possibly also within the software you're using until you get a sound that you're happy with? (And, if using a DAW - which I would say is the ideal set-up, given that it will allow you to further tweak the sound - use a limiter to increase the input gain further if you need to, EQ the output, do whatever you have to do until you've more or less got the sound that you were after.)
Because we are being sold "painstakingly accurate" plugins and not told how to actually calibrate the gear. That's sort of important if the accuracy is the selling point of the plugins.
@@johnnathancordy I still don't get it.
(a) Unless you're going to do a side-by-side comparison of hardware vs. software then you're not going to know whether there's a difference.
(b) How your recording of the hardware sounds would nonetheless differ according to how you'd set up your recording equipment.
(c) It should be obvious to anyone with a brain that the software plugin version of something is never going to be an exact replica of the original.
As with anything else related to audio, you tweak the settings until you get the sound that you want. No manual can tell you how to set up everything absolutely comprehensively, you have to learn for yourself by experimenting.
Does anybody know what value i should set my plugin input level with Bogren Digital plugins through a 2i2 3rd gen?
Love the intro, esp. the themes at the beginning of your lead-definitely worth developing that into a tune for the next EP. -Tom
Why, on earth, have the plugin manufacturers been setting their guitar interfaces so damn differently to the vast majority of guitarists using their plugins? I find that utterly damning on them...if this makes such a difference to plugin sound quality.
they don’t know what interfaces their customers are using, so they have to make a sensible guess as some kind of middle ground. They can’t standardise to anything as every interface has its own levels
@@eds4754 I'm talking about (and all the recent internet noise is about) going against the 'standard' practice of bringing the interface gain up till the input clips, then backing off a little to give some headroom while maximising S:N. Almost all of these plugins went against this convention, leading the the issues we see fo frequently where the purchaser's patch sound is nothing like in the YT influencer demo videos.
Watched John’s 2 videos and Rhett’s and read nearly all comments, still not sure what values I need to pay attention to/do math with 😂smh Do I need to
1) find my interfaces max level (input I assume). I have motu m4 so it states +18dbu (Ed’s chart states 16 so I’m already confused).
2)then I need to find max level value on my plug-in specs? (Bias fx2)
3)then set interface gain to 0 and then do what math to adjust plug-in input level?
Thanks for the info and effort from all, much appreciated
Thanks for the info! Perhaps this is what I was noticing when I was telling you I was experimenting a lot with the input pad on presets and getting different results with different guitars that I like?
Definitely could be
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I think it would be best is to follow the plugin developer's recommended input gain and if you are distributing 3rd party amp profiles then you should specify the reported input gain in your DAW. e.g. -12dB or something.
Focusing on specific numbers or knob settings is not as accurate as measuring the actual signal because all these interfaces are different and even units of the same model may vary based on calibration/QC at the factory.
Good plugins should all include a manual that specifies the suggested input level. It's a different thing now with 3rd party amplifier captures, where they don't specify these things.
One other thing to mention is that the neural network (AI) amp plugins are usually captured at one specific set of parameters, so adjusting the gain is just adjusting the input level.
Usually I am for my signal to hover around -12 dB while playing and make sure it never peaks above -6 dB. that's more than enough range to boot/cut after recording, and avoid clipping.
One other interesting titbit is that many audio interfaces saturate before the clipping indicator, and especially on instrument inputs they can add saturation without it clipping in the DAW. This is very subtle and sometimes just feels like a little more brightness, but it might be worth noting.
But at the end of the day, if it sounds good and feels good. It is good.
Source: I am an electronic engineer and recently did a year-long project digitally modelling an amplifier and have run extensive tests through an audio interface as well as oscilloscopes and other measuring equipment.
I've always used them with the gain pot on my interface (m-audio) completely rolled off. Adding additional gain to the signal always makes it sound unnatural and compressed. That's only good for some tuner plugins that have a sluggish response to quieter signals. The amplitube tuner is fine but the brainworx one definitely likes a loud input. So not adding any gain sounds the most natural but I feel like that is always a little less gain than what my pickups would usually deliver. At least with the more high-output ones it seems like that, I don't really notice it with classic pickups. I always end up using a little more gain than on a real amp but I increase it in the amp plugin, not the preamp. And maybe it's all an illusion anyway and it's just another instance of higher latency compared to a real JCM 800 feeling harder to play.
Each day brings yet another apocalyptic revelation from the frontlines of the guitar gear battlefield! (still coming for the playing. Not that I don't enjoy the talking. I do, even though it's almost entirely irrelevant to me)
This also makes me wonder when making captures/profiles we also need to work out what the base line is to make the most accurate input gain
Guess I'm doing it wrong. I rolled back my interface's gain knob to 0 and set Helix Native's input gain to 3.5 like this guy ed's spreadsheet says to do for my interface (SSL2), and now I have to dime the Princeton model to get any breakup, and even then I have to dig in super hard. I do have Hi-Z selected. The meter on the interface is showing -40 at peak. The input meter in the plug in peaks around -30.
Still don't see where Line 6 are advising one to get as high a level as possible?
In my manual it says to aim for between -12 and -36dB which I think is the level you're talking about?
But yes it would be great if everyone could standardise this!
If you are looking for accuracy, a third problem would be how to also calibrate to take into account the output level of different pickups. Otherwise you bring all your guitars to the same level in the plugin. You may also loose things like rolling down your volume to clean up your sound.
Interestingly, I heard Phil McKnight once mention that Modelers sound better when used on guitars with hot pickups.
Yep, that’s mostly what the purpose of this is. If the interface is set to the correct gain (and the plugin trim also correctly adjusted), then pickup levels will be accurately handled in the plugin. It’s something you set once and then don’t have to touch again, as long as you know the maximum input level of your interface and also the reference level the plugin was calibrated to. With those two pieces of info, you can determine the exact settings to give the correct reference level into the plugin.
You select the correct input level for each guitar. The pickup height has nothing to do with this if you handle the 2 baselines mentioned.
thanks man! can't wait to try this out! I always felt weird about my playback like it sounded off
I've always been at 0.
Hi John, I still don’t get your patch location logic. You have placed some of them on gumroad and some of them on Patreon?
I'm a convert. My amp sims finally started responding appropriately to OD pedals in front of them again
With any of my Apollo interfaces, I've always set things at 0 (but not necessarily with Mics.)
Hello, this comes from an experienced audio engineer at 56 years old. I am not reading all the previous comments. Sorry for that. I am posting this on a few TH-cam channels I respect. Yes, input gainstaging is necessary in all analog emulations. Some plugin manufacturers will tell you the expected target level. Some plugin manufacturers will show you on the plugins input meter the target input that you should be using (many do not). The interface input level has little to do with the process at all. In fact, the level on playback is bound to exactly the same issue. If you use any simple digital gain plugin at any point of recording playback you can resolve the issue if you know the target. I would avoid anything that does anything more than gain as it such as fader/pan plugins they themselves can alter pan law or fader analog emulation and more. This requires only simple digital gain. Find one that has an accurate meter. This fixes both the input and recorded guitar signal at once. You can record at any healthy level. Keep in mind this also applies to every analog emulation in your processing chain. Researching a list of known good plugins for this use is where the community needs to go. So, how can plugin coders ultimately resolve the issue. It is simple. Have an accurate meter that shows the plugins preferred target level. Possibly build in a simple clean gain in their plugin that comes before the analog emulation code. Of course, a target standard could be made but that is less likely. Lean on expert coders to tell you how easy this is. I hope this helps. Skilled plugin developers, please weigh in on the subject. AS an additonal tip, incorrect gain can be used as a tone shaping trick. That might also make for interesting content.
calibrating plugin input levels using guitar signals isn’t very accurate and leads to making quiet pickups loud as loud pickups. Using a 1Vp sine wave (or any known voltage) and matching to the particular developers spec is the best way to get the most accuracy
@@eds4754I understand but cannot agree fully. Assuming that the interface is fine at capturing a instrument level correctly the signal hitting the plugin is already passed analog to digital conversion. Both the live or recorded signal reaching the analog emulation plugin are subject to the same gain staging rules. I still stand by my comment that a clean boost/cut in software with a good meter will work perfectly. This assumes the end user is following the recommended using the target plugin input level should work perfectly. This comment does not negate your valuable info. I am stacking on it as the mixing engineer may receive a previously recorded DI track and want to hit the plugin with proper input. The rest is up to taste.
@@MarvelJAM I’m not really disagreeing with you, but I would say it’s most beneficial to know how much headroom you are recording with, so you have the means to calibrate accurately.
Quite often the interface at 0 will produce a DI that is close to clipping already, because they have spec’d their interface to allow for just below the maximum output of a humbucker.
Likewise, while it’s good to record hotter for SNR, the background noise of the pickups will be a lot louder than the self noise of the interface. So as you increase gain the background pickup noise gets raised too and the SNR remains the same.
It’s definitely good practice to avoid the noise floor, but it’s actually quite hard to record DI’s that are too quiet and the interface noise floor becomes an issue.
@@eds4754Thank you. That is excellent advice for everyone
I have an I think 2nd or 3rd gen 2i2. When I use INST it clips even at 0 so I have to use LINE.
Not just amp model plugins but anything non linear/clippy like saturators, tube style compressors etc. I'm always playing with the DI guitar waveforms though, boosting or cutting the gain on a note by note basis so every single note hits the front end of the 'amp' exactly hard enough for whatever Im going for at the moment...when I'm being miopic about it, which is often. I love Reaper.
Similar topic: setting the input level correctly on the GT-1000 and GT-1000CORE makes a big difference in amp response. Boss would have us do it the "old way", adjusting it for each guitar, though lately I've left it at 0dB and just adjusted the signal chain following it. But it seems like boss is implying that part of their feel mojo comes from having the input level set within the GT's sweet spot.
I think the Boss thing adds another layer of complexity to the situation - on our real amplifiers, we don't have an additional -18/+18db of gain that we set arbitrarily right?
I asked the same question from the guys at Atomic Amps and Tonocracy, and basically got told to use my ears and set my gain to make a clean preset sound clean. Thanks for this.
It's weird to me there's 2 kinds of people here - either people that are like...hmmm wait what have I been doing? And then the others that are like just use your ears and knobs....
And THIS is the problem. Because you have to guess and decide. "Just tweak it up until it sounds "right" whatever the heck it means". You have to know what is RIGHT before you even start. But with modelling stuff the advantage is that you may check tens of different ams you've never experienced IRL so you just have no idea how they respond. And how the heck do you suppose to understand when it acts "as expected" if you have no reference point ? If I would like to compare some boutique heroes like magnatone or Morgan but I have no chance to test it in local shop, how I suppose to get what's wrong ? My input gain is low, my capture sucks or everything's fine but I just don't like the way this amp sounds at all ? All his "tweak until it's clean" tells literally NOTHING.
I wonder if this problem is evidenced in the wide and seemingly random variations in volume levels of the Stock Presets on the HX Stomp. Some volumes seem normal, and others are deafening. 🤷
I heard Phil McKnight mention once that Modelers sound better when used on guitars with hot Pickups. Perhaps this is another symptom related to an incorrect Input Gain setting on the Audio Interface.
Would love to know if the Line 6 HX stomp falls into the same category as UAD and Focusrite - as in if you use it as an audio interface with a plugin, do you need to change the input level.
Does it mean when we using HW like the quad cortex, we shouldn't increase the input gain as well and keep it at "0" ?
Thanks for video , I have always put my interface to 0 . Was always wondering about that when using plugins. What is the link that Tom did for interface levels?
Imagine not being able to adjust a volume knob or fader
I wonder how effective using a boost pedal is in front of an interface given all of this.
Well, if you had the input on your interface nice and low, I'm going to guess it would have the requisite headroom to actually have some positive effect. As I've been setting up as the manufacturers advice, I've maybe been running effectively a +12db boost in front of plugins...D'oh.
It's very useful if you can't setup the input level per preset.
Here is a somewhat confusing answer from mixwave for those that use the benson or milkman plugin:
‘As a general rule, play Your guitar at the loudest volume you will record, then turn up the gain on your audio interface.
Slowly increasing the gain in small increments, until it starts to clip. Once the clipping point has been reached, turn down the gain knob of The Audio Interface to the point where clipping is no longer occurring.
Check the audio track meter and aim for the meter to peak around -12dB and -18dB. Above -10dB it's probably too loud for the entire Tracks/song’
yeah, very general advice that isn’t helpful for accuracy. Sometimes you can ask for a more accurate response directly from the developer on what level of headroom will correspond to the exact gain accuracy for any input.
It can take a lot of work to get the answer, but by definition there is always one level that WILL match the real amp most closely
I set the gain low. But then also use a Darkglass Hyperluminal set to guitar mode and SSL mode with fast attack before the audio interface for a touch of limiting on the wildest the peaks (digging pick attacks). That buys you quite a bit more leeway. I'm not sure I see anything wrong with telling people to keep the gain in that -10 to -15 area or similar. And slightly adjust the gain +/- just a couple of db until it sounds good. It's going to depend on your pickups, pick, articulation anyway. I suppose it would be good if the added a visualiser to help set people it in the right ballpark by eye. But similar to tuning a guitar, there automatic tuners or gain staging tools are just helpful tools. People should learn to trust their ears. Mic placement is the same - you have to use your ears in the end, there's too many variables for prescriptive or completely automatic approaches. I wasn't a fan of Neural's price market strategy on the Mateus Asato, but approach and guidance was helpful. And fwiw, I find recent Neural plugins like Mateus Asato are more forgiving of gain level than some older plugins (e.g. NI Guitar Rig, some plugin alliance). The better modern plugin makers are making efforts to make it work.
Thank you !
What would be a good way to capture the signal level of each "device/block" on your plugin. Make an external port to a VU Meter plugin then back?
Very interesting. I wonder if that's why I have been getting a bad feedback issue with the plugins.
The Tonex Plugin still kind of complicated to me when it comes to gain setting, maybe due to different amps are modelled in a different way? But even on the stock amps that tonex offers seems difficult to set the gain right. How would you set your gain with that? for example Joe's Dumble.
That's even more complicated to be honest. I'm not sure what the fix would be there?
@@johnnathancordy I guess the phrase, “if it sounds good then it sounds good” is all we have for now. lol
With individual guitar output, guitar volume knob, interface input knob, each effect having level knobs, amp model volume and master volume and gain, as well as output level, its hard to find the standard on which they set their standards. But the truth is, we are the only ones asking this.
It's even more hard to find that standard that they used when your modeler has 60 plus amp models that all supposed to have a sweet spot in real life... Happy hunting finding all of them 😁
I am not sure about this discussion. It seems to me that you want to set your input properly, enough gain so the guitar comes close to clipping. This, in my mind, will get the best audio to digital conversion. Then you can use like the utility in Ableton for example to lower the gain. It's not going to affect the sound of the guitar as much this way because internally most daws run at 32 bit float. So this way, the signal is optimum, and also you are hitting the amp plugin with less gain. Seems like there would also be less noise since the guitar/input gain is farther away from the noise floor during the a/d process.
It might be interesting to see a comparison video testing whether there is a bigger difference lowering the input gain vs lowering the gain after the a/d conversion
also wondering how that compares to just turning down the input level directly in the amp sim plugin
That works too, but it’s more challenging because you only know the dBu to DBFS conversion with an interface’s gain knob at zero (from the interface’s spec sheet). If you increase the gain above 0, you’ll only know the dBu to DBFS conversion by measuring it yourself.
The end goal of all of this is to get the signal level into the plugin so it matches the reference level used to create the plugin. This way, the amp models will respond as if you plugged your guitar right into the real amp by preserving the relative output differences of various pickups.
Hmm, I see what you mean. That would be the easiest way to get close, if your interface and plugin are listed in that spreadsheet, or if you can find that info. My interface is the Steinberg UR44. That info is not listed in the manual. So, without having to order the equipment needed to measure it properly, I am just going to have to find a clean preset and set the input level to where it sounds clean. And when I say 'set the input level' it still seems best to get as much signal you can into the interface for the a/d conversion and then lower the gain going into the plugin to get the best signal, unless there are other reasons why that is not a good idea?
And therefore we need to know what the plugin creators want to see what level the guitar signal should be.
Thanks to Ed S for point all this out. It's an interesting discussion and one that will hopefully push plugin makers to have either a standard or some sort of guide to setting their expensive (sometimes) plugins setup properly.
I have a couple questions that are probably a little more for my setup, but maybe others have some ideas on what I can do....
1) I have a Victory Duchess V4 hybrid amp that uses the Two Notes Cab sims. I was told by Sweetwater rep to plug the Victory into the Line In (channel 3 for me) -- Now, the Duchess is not an amp sim per se... but I am connecting it to the two notes software for cab sim... do I still need to set my gain on Channel 3 on the ID44 to zero... and adjust in Torpedo Remote software the Input levels.... or should this be set to the "just-a-bit- below-clipping" setting that the plugin companies recommend? Is this just for amp sims in particular or do the hybrid amps like The Duchess have different rules?
2) Is there any info on S-Gear settings yet? I can reach out to them to see if they offer any advice on their specific settings.
I think S Gear wasn't super co-operative....I don't think you'd have to worry too much with the Torpedo Remote for the Cab Sim - as IRs/Cabs tend to be non-linear (I think) you're not going to run the risk of pushing them into saturation particularly?
Ola has been preaching this for years !
If you’re using a dry signal, like a blank preset on the HX Stomp, then what exactly are you adjusting when using the HX Stomp as your audio interface for a Neural DSP plugin?
If you're using a piece of hardware like the HX Stomp etc then you're PRETTY much in the ballpark anyway and unlikely to be making drastic gain boosts
How hard is it to add an input level indicator in the plugins? Just make the light green when the input is optimal levels
That's not actually as simple as it sounds - what is the optimal level for a low output single coil - what is the optimal level for a humbucker...Etc. The point is that actually in terms of accuracy there is a signal that the companies are actually calibrating with, so if we just set it to that (or close) then we no longer have to worry about levels as such?
I wonder why they don't make an input level plugin that helps you to reach the correct settings.
It's built into your plugin and called level meter or clipping indicator ;) adjust your level according to your interfaces manual and use the input knob in your plugin to adjust in either direction.
That intro track! Amazing ❤
Any Audient Evo users can tell me what to do on my interface to "get it right" when using NDSP plugins?? Sorry, total noob here. Cheers
Audient EVO 4, 8 and 16 all seem to have 10dBu input headroom on instrument inputs when interface gain is set to 0. Reduce NDSP plugin input with 2.2 to get calibrated to NDSP plugins.
@@jescowhite6047 ayyy thank you so much man. Much appreciated. So just to be clear. The NDSP plugins have two big knobs on each side. Input and output. And you're saying to put the input to 2.2?? Correct? Because lately I've been raising that input and it's given me some better results I believe.
To calibrate your interface to NDSP plugins you need to reduce the plugin input with 2.2, so it's default at 0, turn it left to -2.2 That way your guitar will sound like it would sound when plugged in the actual real amp, gainwise. @@ehsanhaq155
I used to run it as they say basically before clipping until about a week ago I started lowering it and everything sounds way better I'll try it at zero I thought there would be no sound but defi worth a go 👍
Yeh it is the way I've been doing it - and basically what the companies have been recommending but, yeh we're all running into our plugins with a significant gain boost, as it turns out?!
@johnnathancordy I started to notice that most high gain amps or distorted stuff lacked its own characteristics I have the gain turned down to about 5-10% and now you can tell a huge difference, glad you backed up my theory and hopefully other people with realise what they're missing out on
Great advice, although I feel it necessary to add that your advice is great for people seeking nice clean tones, but when it comes to metal and distorted tones, I've found that the closer you are to clipping, the tighter, brighter and all-round HEAVIER the distorted tone.
In the case that you're seeking that crushing metal tone, I would actually be in favour of the "as high as you can without clipping" approach. Certainly improved my experience of using both Helix Native and various NDSP plugins. This is the problem with not having a universal standard for connecting your guitar to your interface. You can gain a lot more control by bringing a DI box into the equation and balancing that way, but at that point it's probably all down to personal taste.
Also just to clarify, when I say "as high as you can without clipping", I mean if you hit your strings as HARD as you can, its not gonna clip. Not to have it so sensitive that you have to play very light just to avoid clipping. There is a huge difference!