Ocean class - Guide 324
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- The Ocean class, first rate ships of the line of the French Navy, is today's subject.
Read more about the the ships here:
www.amazon.co....
Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel
Want a shirt/mug/hoodie - shop.spreadshi...
Want a medal? - www.etsy.com/u...
Want to talk about ships? / discord
Want to get some books? www.amazon.co.uk/shop/drachinifel
Drydock Episodes in podcast format - / user-21912004
Music - / ncmepicmusic
Pinned post for Q&A :)
If the Wilhemshaven raid had happened and been very successful, how would this have affected naval policy in the interwar years and into WWII?
I remeber that a long time ago, I saw a brief video of the Royal Navy scuttling a former French vessel, caputerd at Trafalgar, after France refused to repurchase it, I think in 1956... have you some memory of that?
I’ve heard from another history TH-camr, History Buffs that after the battle with the Spanish Armada there was a huge outbreak of disease among the English fleet, and Queen Elizabeth kept them in quarantine, not just to avoid spreading plague, but to help…let’s say minimise the number of people she had to pay. Is this true, and did any similar cases happen to the best of your knowledge?
When a compartmentalized ship is prepared for battle, the crew closes all doors and hatches to help maintain watertight integrity. With everything buttoned up, how did they maintain airflow to keep the boilers running without compromising the integrity of the ship?
Q&A Drach... Where do babies come from?
The odd names of the Etats de Bourgogne and the Commerce the Marseilles which are mouthfulls even in French is because they were funded through the Don des Vaisseaux (ship donation) program where cities, provinces, and even individuals could directly contribute to the construction of naval vessels in the last half of the 18th century which would then be named in their honor. Basically a Kickstarter for warships.
I'm really looking forward to the reopening of the French naval museum in Paris which has been closed since 2017 for renovations and I believe has a number of high quality models of Sane's work.
I never even considered that there might be Photos of these ships
Well if they survived into the 1840s it would be likely.
Why photos just predate the civil war where the iron clads got there first taste of war so old sailing ships and photography over lapped for a few decades
The last ship of the li e to go to the scrapper in England was after WWII.
That was originally French, too.
HMS Implacable was offered back to the French in 1949, but they wouldn't take it either.
That was a black day, but the ship was rotten, and the country broke.
Crimean war has many pictures of large tall ship fleets engaged in battle. Feels like time travel to see them. I wish they had perfected photography 50 years sooner. It had been aroubd for so long but the breakthrough to actually store the images for any length of time came just 20 years too late for the pre steam era in naval ships
OK I am French so as we do not do anything like others, I wish to have double 5 minutes guides as one of them will be used to try to track changes of names of the ships 😂 À noté, your French pronunciation is good OK we may hear a bit of British accent but it is exotic and we are used to have British people on our soil (during both war and peace times 😂). so no need to apologize. For the video, great one as always!
Dauphin Royal and Téméraire were very recurring names in the french navy
@@Eire_Aontaithe You are right, a little bit less for the former one since revolution but yes Téméraire is still on use for one of our nuclear attack sub.
@@khaelamensha3624 More than one Royal Navy Ship of the Line or Battleship has worn the name Temeraire also, which is obviously the anglicized version. Of the ships that have carried the name (6 in all), 4 have been, or would have been ships of the Line or Battleships. The 1939 ship to be named Temeraire was supposed to be a Lion Class, so she was never completed, I am uncertain even if she were one of the two laid down. The other three were a 74 gun third rate, a 98 gun second rate, and the 1907 Bellerophon Class Dreadnaught.
The name still is in use, though it is preserved as the name of a Royal Navy Shore Base. HMS Temeraire is in Plymouth and is home to the Director of Naval Physical Development, which is the department of the RN responsible not only for physical fitness in the RN but also encouraging sports excellence within the service.
Whether it will be used as a ship name again is doubtful given the draw down of the number of Capital ships in the RN these days. Only the Nuclear submarines use the old Battleship names, and we only have ten of them if you include both the Attack Boats and the SSBN's (6 and 4 respectively).
I guess the RN liked the name, so kept it. Cannot say I blame them, the translation as I understand it is Reckless.
I notice that many naval historians promote the idea that renaming a ship is bad luck. An obvious conspiracy theory suggests itself.
@@alganhar1 a very nice name indeed
Wait, let me get this straight. The French building STANDARDIZED warships.
Standardised warships were a thing in the ancient world then again from about the 13th century in some places :)
Here we go again...yes the French were building standardized (no just the hull) warships in the dawn of the industrial revolution well before stupid memes...
Yes, the French were building standardised warships well before the British or the Americans. If only you had a bit of curiosity you would educate yourself, instead of blindly following stupid memes, and you’d be surprised as how many things you thought right weren’t,
@@brunol-p_g8800 It is a joke based on a certain other time period in France's naval history, dude. I have seen no memes about it.
@@brunol-p_g8800uhhh no they weren't. But also the joke is about the pre-dreads. So please take your faux offence and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Please more 18th century ships, they are fantastic pieces of engineering that don't get nearly enough love that they deserve
I am always a bit sad that if a ship survived very long, it was still scrapped instead of being a museum today.
Back in the day, preserving something we'd now call history didn't seem to be as much of a thing as it became later
What about the museum ships that would be scrapped? USS Oregon.
And I always feel bad when a ship with less than 5 or 6 years of service is sunk. Sinking a brand new ship feels bad
Museum Ships still cost a lot of coin to maintain....
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
I believe Drach once pointed out that the French ship building industry served well as a subsidiary supplier for the RN during the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.
There are somthing Roman over the French navy. The British did burn/destroy/capture the fleet, the french build a new fleet in a rapid speed, and the cycle continue.
Napoleonic french navy, otherwise known as the royal navy reserve
@@kirgan1000 don't know if it's roman, but 2 centuries later france is twice bigger, has forest and part of its former empire ..... while the UK .... nothing.
A big chunk of the better RN ships of the line were based on captured French ships. It's wild how the French tended to have arguably better ships and better guns during this period, and it just didn't matter in the broader scheme of things vs. British seamanship and gunnery in the era.
@@bultelpascal3819 yeah, it's almost like the useless French sat on their asses for most of the 2nd world war, while the british spent practically all their remaining blood and treasure attempting to actually win, instead of pussying out then pretending to be on the winning side.
Excellent video, Drach. The French designed and built very good ships (arguably the equal or superior to British designs). The Revolution and its purges had a similar effect on the leadership of the Navy as it did on the Army, but where the Army saw some truly gifted soldiers rise to lead it, the Navy was damaged beyond repair. They were never collectively a serious challenge for the British afterwards. It’s a pity, objectively, that the ships never got the leaders that could make best use of them until it was far too late for them to become a significant factor. But they did enrich the British navy when they were captured, which may have been the best acknowledgement of their quality.
The french revolution leaders and later the empire, considered that the french navy (Marine Royale at this time, in french) was a nest of royalists and nobles. So they didn't pay any attention to naval affairs. Napoleon himself was quick to anger about the fleet, but he never did anything for it.
I think being on the backfoot hurt the navy as well. With the army, you can drill in all sorts of places. With a navy, you need to go out into the ocean. But while the interior of France is safe to train that army in, out on the ocean there's probably a fleet of British ships waiting to pounce the moment you leave your harbor...
So just harder to get that starting measure of experience even.
France's strategic problem was being a territorial nation first and foremost; that long continental border and even the Spanish border had to be defended at all times, and when not necessary for defense, the army was useful for expansion. The navy was a luxury when push came to shove, so overseas colonies were expendable. Whereas Britain's army was never as necessary for defense, so it could have a full time navy to support colonies.
@@Axterix13 One peculiarity of French and British geography is that Atlantic coast French fleets need an eastern wind to get into the Bay of Biscay, then a western wind to round Brittany and get into the Channel to attack Britain. Whereas if the British blockade those Bay of Biscay ports, the same winds help them more than the French.
@@Axterix13 It also didn't help that the French tended to form a crew for a mission and if the ship survived and made it back to port the crew would often be broken up and the men dispersed to other ships. The result was little chance to accumulate experience unlike the Royal Navy where crews could remain together for years on end. providing intimate knowledge of their vessel and fellow crew.
I love the picture at 6:39. It is difficult to gage the size of old ships in most pictures, but seeing the workers sitting on a railing at the stern of the ship is really nice.
1:50 Dang!! Even the WW2 US ship printing machine would be impressed!
One of the ships stuck around until 1905?!
Now I am imagining these ships at the battle of Jutland.
Drach: "Please forgive me for mangling some French names, while I effortlessly reel off even more complicated Spanish names!" 😆 But it's cool that there are actually photos of some of these ships in their full first-rater glory.
Iirc one of Drach’s parents is Bolivian.
It's this time when the French navy wasn't always the best performing one, but the ability of the French shipbuilding industry to mass build new ships was impressive. It's even most impressive because those weren't shoddily built "good enough" boats, but they were using newest scientific methods of the time in those designs.
I feel using green timbers probably helped contribute to the rate of production.
Late 18th century French ship designers: Let's make practical good ships! No hotels or tumblehome hulls.
Late 19th century French ship designers: Sacre Bleu! Blasphemous!
I think Draco’s pronunciation of French words is much better than my attempts, and I’m effluent in many languages!
effluent?
gasp
wow 3 minutes glade to have caught another one of Drachs great videos so early
I am just building a model of the Santisima Trinidad, very interesting subjects you cover, thank you,.
Oh, yes, i saw that wonderful model! Since i live in northern Italy, the trip to Marseille is not that long. BTW, the museum definitely deserves a visit!
Always amazed at how large these vessels really were!
Thanks Drach
The sheer number of ships built is amazing when we look at today navy's.
The amount of wood used in even one vessel would give an environmentalist nightmares.
Supplying an increasing draught of European ship-worthy oak was a major naval strategy concern...hence much of the charm of Scandanavia and North America.
6:43 French early attempts at aircraft carriers were hampered by a lack of sails, and more notably, a lack of aircraft.
I have a suggestion: the Portuguese Galleons, specially the galleon Botafogo (Spitfire)
Great! I was just researching these ships a bit - and then a Drachinifel video on them!
Technically the direct analogue, though not translation of Dauphin Royal would be Prince of Wales, or mabe Royal Prince of Wales as conotations (title related to a part of the kingdom, hereditary in the past but at this poin long associated with heir apparent) are identical.
Very topical as I'm reading Julian Stockwins " Quartedeck."
Okay, this was a total... *Ship Show.* .... haha. Enjoyed the show, Carry On!
absolutely beautiful ships. Orient was majestic and powerful, right up until the moment she repositioned herself all over Aboukir Bay at high speed.
A video of the Tonnant class ships would be very welcome.
I can't believe there are photos of these ships. It's crazy to think how fast technology advance in the 19th century.
Thank you drach
Thanks Drach
excellent work
I Always search for my dad when you shows sailors 😊 he was on the Lloyd George but there is nothing on that ship also the Queen Mary and SS Cabano and lot more he was on mine sweepers and destroyers! Big hugs from Quebec!
A lesser known area; but relevant for a complete picture. Thank you.
Sadly, the Marseille museum was closed when I was there, some 25years ago. Although, Chataeu D'if was a liberty day well spent.
War Thunder is about to launch a French Naval tree. Drach should expect an uptick on views of his French 20th century Naval videos.
the fact that someone who crewed a ship of the line could have seen a dreadnought is wild. the pace of technological development in the 19th and eatly 20th centuries was insane.
Love your work!!!
Perhaps a future video will cover them.
The RN especially has had multiples ships, or classes of ship, with same name.
It’d be meat to learn about the various iterations of Warspite, for example.
ah this is great that you reviewed this class. thanks.
This video got me thinking: What about making a video on the history of standardized ship designs?
"No views." I have never been this early on ANY video before, neat.
Happened to me once. It's kool !:-)
Congratulations!
Thank you thank you very much I always wanted to see this video. I
Last time I was this early,
the oceans hadn't formed yet.
🇺🇸Thank you very much. Fascinating.
Love to see the Nuestra Senora in full detail!
Not only a very capable class, but also a nice looking one aestetically.
And that's not something you can say that often about a three deck first rater..
OK, strapping myself in for what is sure to be an interesting video.
They actually look quite elegant as ships. The revolution took quite a toll on the french navy.
Say what you want. These tall ships look simply amazing.
Fascinating!
Are you planning to cover Santisima Trinidad? In the maritime museum of Havana (Castillo de la Real Fuerza) there's a beautiful model.
People wonder why the ships back then weren't saved as museum ships. As far as the military is concerned, ships are just a very expensive weapon of war, similar to a rifle. When the weapon no longer serves its purpose, it is discarded, be it a ship or a rifle. The military only has a limited budget, and is supposed to use that budget for weapons of war. If the ship is to be saved as a museum, it's up to the civil government or non government entities to spend the money to preserve and maintain the ship. It's only been relatively recent that the public has been willing absorb such costs. Sometimes we seem to blame the military for not preserving such magnificent ships.
Hi Drach!!! Very, very nice video as always. Can you also make a video of the British Neptune-class 98-gun 2nd rates??
Can one even imagine the crews' sanitation conditions on these monstrous primitive gondolas?
Just imagine if the French decided to keep one of these ships around and made it in museum ship it would be the second old ship of the line next to the Victory..
Si seulement...
The Océan is bigger than the Victory
Fantastic more age of sail please. The obusier de vaisseau and Spanish obusier have been a source of great pain to me. I am building the spanish frigate Diana and her top deck was meant to carry Spanish obusiers. All i can find is that they are similar to the obusier de vaisseau and short verbal descriptions. No drawing anywhere. I gave up and used 9 pounder longs but I would love to know more especially a picture. Would carronaded ve adequate? If anyone has more info please share or Drach :) And yes please more age of sail. There is so much WWII coverage but very little high quality AOS stuff on TH-cam.
You need to look in Spanish sources. "Obús" should render some results. There's a Page called "Todo a Babor" that had quite a bit of info on these matters.
@@cesarsalas8506 Thanks you! Luckily I speak just enough Spanish to understand 30% so should be able to find something. I tried French before I might have found a drawing can't remember. But thanks
Love the videos. Cheers from Estonia
It's quite interesting how a good portion of the French Fleet ended up serving in the royal Navy.
Such a shame non of these survive, love HMS Victory but I want to see a captains cabin with a balcony.
Ur french pronociation is very good :)
Suggestion for a ship review: floating brewery HMS Menestheus.
Well, you gotta give it to the French. Some of their late 18th century naval designs are very, very pleasing.
Great video, Drach.
There was never anything wrong with French Ships. Indeed they were at least equal to, and often better than their British equivalents. The problem with the French Navy, at least in the Napoleonic era, was that their leadership, including most of their most competent Captains and Admirals had been beheaded, often quite literally. This is compounded by the British blockade keeping those ships more often than not bottled up in port where they had little opportunity to train their crews in seamanship or gunnery. Add to that the complete disregard Napoleon had for the French Navy and you have a recipe for disaster.
In turn they were going against a navy that was constantly at sea, constantly honing and training their crews, ships commanded, on the whole by competent, aggressive Captains and Admirals. It really is an illustration of how important adequate training is for complex weapons platforms such as Capital Ships. And really that was Frances problem. Their ships were good, there was nothing intrinsically wrong with their sailors, they just did not get the opportunity for training and sea time the Royal Navy sailors did.
@@alganhar1 Sea worthiness in poor weather was often sacrificed by french designed ships, navwepons (the website) has an interesting article on the subject.
French Navy: that one player who's not happy with their IGN so they kept renaming
BROTHER’S! THE EMPEROR’S SPIRIT RETURNS!!!
2:10 "the floating barn"
More age of sail content please!
The lower gundeck looks to be about 7° of heel from taking in water unless the gunports seal VERY well.
Do a video on the Minotaur-class armoured cruisers, like the HMS Defence, an early casualty at Jutland.
Thx you
AS a sailor, you hear how it is bad luck to rename a boat or ship. I couldn't help but think of this throughout your video!
yet it never sank
I for one appreciate the lost technology that allows the pre-steamship vessel images to be a higher quality than the WW1 vessels. 😉
Age of Sail French - "Before our ships got ugly!" :)
I Hope there will be an episode about the Ocean ironclads, you don’t see much talk about them
Perhaps a future video will cover them.
The RN especially has had multiples ships, or classes of ship, with same name.
It’d be meat to learn about the various interactions of Warspite, for example.
Indeed, it's difficult to get reliable sources from the early propeller driven steam ships with sails.
It seems they fell in some historical gap. 😉
Broadside ironclads in particular are very interesting, some even mounted ram like pre-gunpowder galley.
@@kevinbayu7621 even pre-dreadnoughts and the first dreadnoughts had rams actually;
fun fact : the only ship hms dreadnought sank was a u-boat... that she rammed
The only shame in coming early is that I cannot read the comments while listening to the video.
When considering the displacement of a tall ship, do you include its armament in the calculation?
Drach do you know that all of your vids are 50% lower in volume than ALL other videos I watch? Bit of a pain to jack ur vol up then down after.
The British 24: 5.823", low gauge 5.546", mean gauge 5.5931" est weight 23.301lb English
The French 24 (english measure) 6.0022", high gauge 5.8024", mean gauge for places 5.7698", est weight mean 25.58lb English
18lb and 12lb gun patterns show a similar proportion, but the French 8livre is nearly identical to the English 9pdr.
Note that the English windage is specified from the low gauge, the French fix their high gauge, Both high gauges are of a similar proportion, but the difference between high and low gauge is larger for the English system for the larger patterns of guns. French specify a fixed interval between gauges, the English a fixed fraction of the low gauge allowance - for larger patterns the french guns have less spread in the windage from the same maximum. In the gaillard pattern guns the french calibres have less tightly controlled windage.
After 1817 the English guns got revised gauges (mostly the high gauge is unchanged, and the low gauge raised) - and the new windage was specified from the mean, rather than low gauged shot. The French got revised gauges at around the same time, but this was more a conversion of the old 'point' sizing of ordnance based on 144th of a French inch to the new metric sizes, but without any substantial changes in dimension.
Later gauges for both increased both low and high gauges and tended to retain or tighten the interval between them.
YES. MOAR FIRST RATES.
What was the RN assessment of these ships (either pre- or post-capture)?
Just a suggestion maybe the CSS Shenandoah history, never posted before bu have been watching for a long time (Years I think)
How much did the design and designers influence the Class of US frigates represented by the Constitution? and would that be an interesting video? Did Humphries have any contact with the french? was Franco-philic Jefferson likely to push that way? or are the similarities between these 'ahead of their time' ships... just something superficial and merely 'best practices' the best naval architects all knew but only some navies were willing to stretch to?
Been waiting years for the 50+ min Temeraire-class 74 video... How can we make this happen? I'll assist in research as much as needed.
Unfortunatelly the information about the Stsma Trinidad is wrong.
She only stayed as a floating pond until the works to be done were agreed. On 1796 she was almost dismantled and rebuilt. Decks lowered and breath increased. Lenght was also enlarged mostly at the stern allowing for a lot better water flow to the rudder. As i said almost the whole work was rebuilt.
Admiral Collingwood appreciate her so much that after Trafalgar tried to tow the ship by all means. Only the arrival of a fresh fleet made him order to blow the Trinidad up and scape to Gibraltar.
Hustory is not what we'd like, but what is was.
Great video. I do like me a sailing gal. Were they known as "Ocean class" back then, or is that a modern term? Tangent: at 00:22, what happens to that turret? Looks like something breaks off of it.
Set top Gallants and Stuncels
as someone in Québec pointed out to me concerning my french...
"you sound like an englishman, speaking french",
which is better than an englishman shouting
at a french (or any other language) person on the assumption
that volume somehow improves comprehension.
Naval Action flashbacks
Has Drach seen the worst loss of life in the Russia navy since the Battle of Tsushima? The Vulhdar offensive: th-cam.com/video/FWIzhP6G7S8/w-d-xo.html
They took the crews from the minesweepers and landing craft gave them a few rifles and tanks and sent them into battle, without their ships. Kamchatka could have done a better job.
You didn't talk about their armor.
Oh...right.
Nevermind.
☮
For me, though very impressive ships their lack of sailing speed and gun firing speed were their downfall. Weight of broadside is all very well, but you have to be in position to fire effectively and then be able to keep it up.
Yeah. Getting into position and raining hell with say 75 guns is way more important than half assed 100 gun broadsides
@@jonny-b4954 it's not the number so much as the weight of the individual cannons. I helped move one of the 1744 Victorys 42s into a conservation tank in the Royal dockyard and can see why the navy stopped using them. Just too slow firing...
Rightfully so. Similar problems as those encountered with the "Santísima Trinidad", very powerful artillery, but a slow and cumbersome ship. Up to the point it restricted the maneouvres of the whole fleet in engagements.
This is Take Two
(Sorry my first comment was so jumbled it even gave me a headache so lets try this again)
First of all, The FN (?) Ship Ocean video was super great. Thank you for it. Also could you do a video on United States Battleships Philadelphia, Franklin, Ohio, Pennsylvania etc (All have 3 gun decks) And could you explain why the US Government did not commission many of our early Battleships into service (leaving them to rot on the slipways) I know for a fact (I am a US and Military Historian) that USA had the money for at least 20 to 40 Battleships. But it seems as if the US Government was afraid to spend any money at all. (A case in point to prove that US Government was afraid to spend Money. In the early years of the USA (1800 ish) There was a need to make improvements to already existing roads. A bill was passed in Congress only to be Vetoed by President Jefferson who said it cost too much. (In my opinion it did not (cost too much) and this proves the US Government was afraid to spend money (Shrugs)) Sorry for the politics just a bit put off that the US Government would be so stingy to let our strongest military units rot away. Thank you kind sir for reading this letter.
er a small correction. I think Philadelphia was a Constitution/ Constellation class Frigate not a Battleship. Sorry about that
0:13 ironicly the ocean clas was in fact limited to rivers the rivers class on the other hand ...
I would love to see your take on the "Ship of Theseus" argument as it relates to the USS Constellation in Baltimore Md. The ship is currently presented as a sloop-of-war built in the 1850's despite as recently as the 1970's, being claimed by everyone, the US Navy and US Congress included, to be the 1794 frigate Constellation, making it the oldest ship in the US Navy. If she were a "new" ship in 1854, there would have been a bill authorizing her construction. There was none. There was an extensive rebuild with nearly everything replaced in 1854, but no authorization to build a new ship. In the 1980's the US Navy and the city of Boston were pushing the USS Constitution and pouring money into her while Constellation was hogging badly in Baltimore. The Navy finally agreed to put money in to save Constellation, only if she would be rigged and presented as the sloop-of-war built new in the 1850's. Whether it's the "Ship of Theseus" or the "Grandfather's Axe" debate, if you replace all of somethings component parts over a long time, is it still the same thing?
148 ships of the line. They laid waste to entire forests! Even the US WWII naval production is impressed.
Do you have any information about the French man of war built 1797 captured at the Battle of Trafalgar 1805 sculled 1947
Can you talk about navy and submarines during the 1936-39 Spanish civil War
As always, pre-XX France leading the way in naval construction while Britain leads the way in naval tactics.
THe lower gun deck in the drawings appear veryt close to the water line. Wet?
Drach, were any of the Ocean class man-o-wars at Trafalgar? And if yeah, how they fared?
No Océan at trafalgar