I 100% agree with your analysis of debate/discussion. As an INTJ I do not care for debating I am far more open to discussing topics instead. My Te likes to gather others thoughts and information through discussions, not debating. Ti = debate and Te = discussion.
I love Ti users to help me see through all of the possible errors that my idea or project can have. They are just great at that. At questioning the why behind and the why not. But Ti can be very hard to deal with for Te. Not only because of the debates, but also because of their decision-making deficiency due to questioning everything just in a boring and excessive way. among other. I couldn’t live with that next to me 😂
Hey, Mindi I see it like the intp is hardwired with the possibility of Exception on at all times, whereas the intj is not always focused on the possibility of an Exception. Both intps and intjs can develop unique and clever perspectives, but where debate is concerned the intp will most likely be looking for flaws in their opponent's logic and the intj will most likely be looking for flaws in their own logic.
In my personal experience as an INTP (tested quite a few times, because...doubt), I've come across many situations where someone continuously tells me something as if it's a fact, and I ask why they think that. Because I would like them to back up what they say with some evidence. I genuinely want to know perspectives, because I know that there's the possibility of flaws in the way I think. For me, the debating happens when the person consistently does this, and seems to expect me to feel the same way as they do, and act accordingly. So, I dunno. *Throws up hands in confusion*
Nathan Wilson hey! Thanks for sharing. You sound indeed like an INTP... Here’s how I interpret what you just said 🙃 “Back up your evidence, plz. Show me that I’m wrong because I’m always afraid that my system has flaws... but no matter what you say, I’ll always continue to ask for more evidence because I’ll always be afraid of the possible flaws of my own system. It’s actually one of my biggest fears in life: not knowing the real truth”
@@psychologyofgrowth Ha! It's more like 'If you feel so strongly about this that you keep stating it as a fact, and seem to want me to believe it, and act on it, give me evidence.' Responses like 'That's just the way it is' mean nothing to me, if your whole aim is to change my mind, cuz I have thought it through already, and came to a conclusion with the information that I have at the time, so what's your new information that I haven't considered? 😋
Debating is great because it put things into perspective and when truth is put into practice it is irrefutable. Don't expect an INTP to back down to any type although if an INTP stops debating it's usually because they detect their opponent can't take their own 'truth' any further.
What if we (INTJ) have out-manoeuvred you as we planned and you run into a brick wall? (I find that's when my INTP brothers start getting emotional and petty, hehe)
@@johnknight9150 Well, there are INTPs with a lot of pride and want to think that they know it all. I'm not that kind of INTP. I only debate if I feel like I have a sound position or I'm just exercising my strongest functions as INTPs are wont to do.
@@kevrokka.d.9749 You only debate if you feel like you have a sound position? I think that is a difference between J and P here. We will debate a possibly weak position in order to see if it has merit, putting the idea through a crucible.
This was explained the best way I have ever heard. I have tried to explain this to Ti Dominants so many times, and they just tell me to come back with better arguments. lol. I am an INTJ and been into Jungian psychology for about 6 years now and bingeing your channel tonight has helped me have a bunch of epiphanies. Thank you!
Totally agree I wasn't sure about my type because sometimes I don't want to debate and people may think that I'm loyal and don't want to hurt someone. So I thought I was F type. But it was strange to hear words like 'loyal' or 'gentle' to my address... And then I understood I just don't want to argue if there's no value and at the beginning, I know that we will not come to a conclusion that'll make sense. How many times do we spend our energy on meaningless debates? I just can say nothing and it's not because I Can hurt someone... There's no value. But I enjoy watching others debating - sometimes learn things from it. There are some types that like debating and they do it VERY WELL And they interested in it A lot of things to put in my had while watching (INTJ) love your content, thank you
Hi Alina. “I don’t want to argue if there’s no value”. Tell that to a Ti user, even INFJs and they would argue back at you saying that there’s always value to be found. Which brings me to say how much I understand you. Yes, debating makes no sense, even for feelers like me. That’s we’re ENFPs and INTJs share values as well, I’ve noticed. We don’t like either to spend energy or time at it. I prefer watching the debates as well because I can take what is in line with my values (or research) and ignore the rest and continue with my life after that haha Thank you btw 😘
Im an INTP. I don't like holding an incorrect position on something but I accept I might have gaps in knowledge or may hold incorrect beliefs and eagerly welcome new knowledge so long as it's reasoned. I hold rationality in high regard and welcome anyone to challenge my knowledge in conversation. I find INTJs more rigid with their knowledge. I'm happy to present opposing opinions and strongman both in order to come to some outcome. It seems my conversations with INTJs they only hold to one side in the sense that it may define their identity in some way.
You video seems to indicate that INTPs debate via subjective truths yet we always seek the objective. For us to lose the debate is a great way to expand our knowledge. We are always wanting to know more.
5:03 and pause - "One does not simply Debate." ^^, On a more serious note: Yes you are very much correct. I would sometimes engage in a discussion about a subject with the sole purpose to gain/share an understanding, to share insights, share and gain knowledge. But I've come to the conclusion that in most cases - it's not worth it because most people would somehow mistake my intent of discussion for Debate and cling to their understanding of a subject as a part of their ego, sometimes percieving the discussion as very adversarial, not something I'd be interested in. For some reason (unknown to me) - the best discussions I've ever had have been with my INFP friend, I can appreciate how authentic (sometimes very direct) my friend can be, how clear and insightful his Ne perceptions and insights might be. Strong oppinions, yet open minded. Any ideas why that might be? -INTJ
Haha all the time that happened to me with my ENTP friends. They just wanted to debate like for real. My Ti is very poor, even further than yours! Why INFPs and INTJs can talk so well? I guess because of their Authenticity (Fi) that you know as well but that they master. Plus their Ne is very complimentary to your Ni. They expand and you extract the very heart of what they are saying. It’s my guess.
@@psychologyofgrowth An insightful, concise and educated guess. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and understanding. I can easily imagine how a conversation with you could be curious and interesting. Whatever your goal is with youtube - I hope you succeed.
Here's one difference (as I see it): The INTJ's faith (Ni dominant and Te parent) is stronger than his or her skepticism (Ne nemesis and Ti critic) whereas the INTP's skepticism (Ti dominant and Ne parent) is stronger than his or her faith (Te nemesis and Ni critic). (I just made this up. But tell me why I'm wrong and I'll change my position.)
I(INTJ) agree, I can have very strong faith in a certain truth UNTILL, I find solid reason disputing this truth, then I will 100% delve into this new argumen(s) to find out if my logic to find out the TRUTH. We are like a plain on auto pilot but we wont hesitate to change trajectory if needed.
I am an INTP(possible INTJ??) and I hate debate because I like to be open minded and hopefully learn something new in a discussion. It helps me fix logical flaws in my thinking. I care about learning, not winning. I like how discussions are not structured and basically gives me freedom to talk about anything. I want to share my knowledge with others in discussion
Sounds more like extroverted thinking than like introverted thinking, in my opinion. So yes, it sounds more like INTJ than like INTP... but this is not enough information. You might need to learn about cognitive functions or get help by someone who knows about it. I do that, you can email me if you need help.
@@airplanesli3590 by nature if you’re an INTP you’ll be using Ti. Like breathing, it’s their nature when they don’t try. And Te instead will be familiar, like a far away cousin you know is your family but you can’t talk to them like you do to the cousin that grew up in your neighbourhood. You can learn more about Te and get better by training yourself... but Ti is the nature of INTPs
I have 2 modes, I either debate to learn by putting into test the new concepts, or I debate for fun when I am confident that my position is correct. I'd seek out people with vastly different perspective and thus came into different conclusions, and see if I can poke holes to their argument or see if they find a hole in mine where I didn't find a hole before. Example of my 1st mode is me participating in "discussions" in personality database to debate personalities of fictional characters Example of my 2nd mode is me debating evolution against creationists when I graduated with minor in biology. Or against flat earth. Or against astrologist. Basically everyone against mainstream science. -bored INTP
as a primarily INTJ who has sometimes also tested as an INTP (like 5% of the time. i was a psych major in college and have taken the MBTI MULTIPLE times), i feel like i have an EXTRAORDINARILY INTIMATE/PERSONAL perspective of BOTH sides of this... as far as how they approach nearly EVERY aspect of life... think of perspective/approach to ANYthing as though its trapped in/part of a funnel. INTPs are EXPANSIVE - they start at the narrow end of the funnel and work their way out. they see ALL of the POSSIBILITIES. INTJs are REDUCTIVE - they start at the wide part of the funnel and are GREAT at boiling things down to their most essential/crucial aspects.
Debate is kind of pointless to be honest. Most people are not open to re-evaluating their beliefs and what they think they know. A lot of people have engraved their opinions into who they are as a person, so they just get emotional when you engage them, so I don't even bother. I just feel like it is a pointless battle that does nothing. A discussion is good as long as both parties are open to it, but debates are rarely worth the energy.
@Doug Joseph Debates are awesome, but I can count on my hands the number of people who I've had a good debate with who didn't turn it into an argument. It's a very hard thing to find someone who knows how to debate.
@Doug Joseph There are multiple definitions of 'argument'. The one you're referring to and the one used in the context I used it are two different variations for the meaning of the word.
@Doug Joseph You are very much correct in regards to expectation, and I don't expect it, it's kind of a rarity, one which most often requires an analysis of both the social situation and the person with whom I would consider discussing a complex idea/subject (for.. kind of obvious reasons.). I do suspect however - you might've missed what I percieve as a crucial part of Aubatron's comment in regards to the subject of debate - "...Rarely worth the energy." I do agree that debate(preferably objective and productive) is part of civilization, it's most likely a very important and nescessary one, even healthy relationships require the element of debate in both literal and abstract sense, in other words - humans need someone to contend with on some level to help us learn and grow. But Debate is probably not nescessary on a daily basis, it's kind of draining.
The problem with debates is that many (or most) people step into them with the sole idea of winning. So no matter what you say they'll always find the way of making their point valid even if it's bullshit, or else, they'll try to keep the conversation as open and endless as possible because they don't want to loose. Either way a waste of time. My Te says: "we should be learning something from here... where are we going to with this? my time is running off, bitch!" Lol
I find as a entp, I prefer intjs, I dont agree , intps want the truth, and they dont have a issue with it sounding like a debate and going on and on to see the intjs flaw..intp goes by ethics not personal values.. Ti (hero)breaks everything down with logic, Ni(hero) is not rational. I love intjs but we tend to come to the same conclusions just differently ..
well. a friend of mine helped me set up cortana from microsoft for the first time. asked me what to call me. he suggested master for a name. so I guess to say I did not debate but it was a master baiting thing.
Very intriguing content. So from what I understand that you said, the difference lies in the fact that the INTP has a care belief that there is or can be an ultimate truth and so they are driven to seek confirmation of that belief and because of the "debate" aspect, they are also driven to reject anything that causes them cognitive dissonance. This essentially gives them more of a sense of pride in what they see as "true" and also more disagreeableness in general compared to the INTJ. The INTJ is aware that truth is a construct based off of perception/perspective. So to see the same thing from 2 different angles is to call into reality 2 different truths. Given that everything is or can be true, they are more willing to accept conflicting information as possible if not true. What the INTP sees as objective data from their individual point of view, the INTJ sees as subjective data based on the collective points of view. So I can see how the INTJ could be seen as more humble for sure. That makes sense. 6 yrs ago I was an INTP. Tonight I tested as an INTJ. Thank you for helping me understand this better. Great video!
Hi everyone, in case you’re interested I have made a video a while ago about INTPs and ENFPs struggles in a relationship. Very much related to the Ti vs Te problem. The video is here: th-cam.com/video/SylLMSLFRRg/w-d-xo.html
summary; my normality have played among the comprehensiveness and apprehensiveness, as though sometimes I debate with no goals but to educate them that what I perceive whether right or wrong but objectively for the good reasons over the bad one
INTJ here. Yes, I discuss 99% of the time. Debated only when someone was being stupidly irrational but was an important person to me. SOo, an INTJ would debate if they care about the "person" deeply. They will not debate nor care to correct even if the person is making a statement on the "thing" or "topic" that they (INTJs) love. Only when they 'care' about the "person", they will try to debate or correct them. That is my experience, generalized. Haha ^^
I'm an intp and I can say I don't like debating because most of the time people debate in the position of im right and you are wrong. It feels like a waste of time to debate most of the time. Now if the other person is intellectual and open minded I can enjoy the debate but see it more as a discussion to uncover the underlying issue and how we can come up with a resolution that is correct. If you can prove me wrong logically I will admit defeat but most of the time people get too emotional during debates and I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
My 4 fave people in my life are intp, infp, intj and infj. I love them all because I can be myself and part of that is debates 😍 intj will challenge me, almost aggressively, he makes me second guess myself which is kinda hard considering it's usually a topic I know a lot about x infp.. Well... I could be having a conversation with myself, and yet they always add a deeper layer, something I feel I SHOULD have thought about but got lost somehow. Infj.. I'm scared.. to be honest.. She gets a little offended at my bluntness and encourages me to see things more from the other person's perspective..she's deep, Insightful and a little more forgiving then I can be..I'm usually in awe.. and I can learn from her. She takes EVERYTHING to a whole new level 😂😂 intp.. Well.. She's probably where I feel most at home. Talking to my intp is taking the simplest of conversations and expanding on them creating galaxies x we literally talk about one thing for hours, detouring, coming back and analysing EVERYTHING again
Thanks for sharing! Such a nice view of the other types. You know some people think that because I talk about INTPs Ti on my videos and say I don’t like it it means that I don’t like them. Not at all. I do like the capacity they have to help me see a problem, situation or even a possible enterprise from all of the angels and it’s possible failure points. That’s just mind blowing. That capacity they have to see everything from every side. Said that, I don’t need to debate about everything just for the sake of having a debate. INFJs are Ti users as well, but weaker than INTPs. It’s their third function. They do like a bit of spicy controversy but they have before Ti Fe, which makes them softies. And yes they are just mind blowing.
Noo, I never picked up on that! I think I just relate to your channel so much I've been over sharing.. I'm such a noob lol.. Please keep doing what you're doing x x really appreciate it x
If an INTP likes to “debate” because they’re trying to find objective reality and no one “bounces” the concept back objectively, that’s neither a debate nor a discussion. Communication is a more apt term and you can’t really split hairs here. Either someone is seeking to learn and understand or someone is seeking to assert and presume. Only one of these approaches to communication is stupid... assuming you’re a member of a communal species. -INTP
INTPs assert and presume far more than they would like to admit. Things start out nicely enough, but can get a little nasty and petty once the objective material runs out.
Debates are like war there won't be any fruits of of it. In a discussions people are more likely admit that they are wrong or arguments that they are using are bad and they try new way. That why i don't like a debates and if i need to be in one i still focusing to not debating but discusing. This gives me an advantage over a enemy team. People see who is for example pissed off.
Intp are humble too. You said it: for them debating it's just an exercise, humble because they know that they don't have the true. Intj just want useful information, when they got it, that's enough.
Being humble in this case (which you mentioned) is very subjective. Who says that? IF you ask me I can tell you that INTJs can be humble as well, they accept that they don't know something, can move on with their lives, and they most likely will investigate later without having to go on a spiral as an INTP could do. From the INTP perspective that's just a natural and humble way of doing things. You see? IT all depends on the observer.
hmmm... as an intp... this was very very strange! we debate? 🤔 entp’s debate! lol i’m just curious of other’s views, way of thinking, perspectives, interests, etc. Just like to listen. :) as for figuring out the truth... i do that on my own, with the help of media.
I will rephrase this: Intps are not into arguing with everybody. That’s not what I mean :) I mean that when they have opened to someone, talking with someone close to them and they feel confortable enough they would challenge their opinions, and everything else in between 😅. Watch my newest video about INTPs I go in depth about how Intps are in relationships - I talk about this there - th-cam.com/video/Kc5gRKDUzXM/w-d-xo.html
From my experience, INTPs absolutely hate being in debates. What they like is causal brainstorming over ideas they have no emotional investment in. Meanwhile, literally every INTJ I have met loves debate and discussion alike. They thrive on it. ...though not as much as an ENTP might.
Agreed! I am an INTJ, and I love productive, stimulating, and informative discussion. In contrast, I find debate to be tedious, draining, and of little to no utility.
Knowing someone is right about something can not at times be proven wrong until they draft certain things into public. however cornavirus has proven insights also needs to declassify certain warning information that is opposite to the relationship value. however the relationship value might have been in hindering creditworthyness of CCP. such might boil down to random choices to find faults of choice making potential in criteria of efforts. an ill authortiy model is lacking in authority models in authoritarian model in chinas works at times it seems.
I'm sorry but you are confusing INTP and ENTP. The "INTP" in this video is more of ENTP. You seem to ignore the Ti dominant aspect of INTP and see the type merely with Ne characteristics. I am an INTP, and debating is my everyday routine, however, i don't debate just because I like it. Ti is about "truth". "I have this "truth", here it is, I'm telling you what it is and why your "truth" is wrong". Of course I can present hundreds of scenarios to prove why my debate opponent is wrong (which might make me or any INTPs come across as ENTPs), but the mission is to put my "truth" on the table and for it to be accepted. You can say that I debate to win because i don't go to a debate to test my ideas, I already thought through those ideas in my head, i already debated myself and already sure those ideas are foolproof, or i wouldn't be confident presenting them. I am confident in my Ti, while ENTP are confident in their Ne. In other words, because the mission is to put that truth on the table and for it to be accepted (not accepted is fine, but I debate to win, accepted or not, i know I'm right), then an INTP will end a debate quicker than an ENTP, because I know I'm right, and my truth is foolproof, also the fact it's easy to see the loopholes in others statements INTPs do play devil's advocate, but the nonstop debating in your video is more ENTP than INTP. I don't deny about "putting doubts" in other people's minds (this is more Ne), yes i do this, but the priority is to put my Ti perspectives for others to see. Because Ti being dominant function its more about problem solving than endless rabbit holes of speculations (Ne). If i don't know what I'm talking about, then i will not talk about it until i can solve it.
I am INTP and I must agree with you here. The "debate" has already been explored with Ne+Ti before even opening my mouth. Therefore my stance in a debate is logically foolproof to me and not really up for debate. The reason I open my mouth at all is to prospect with my Ne, challenging the other persons position. If the other person cannot or will not entertain a logical discussion (reacts with emotional reasoning) between the stances I immediately drop the "debate". Without logic I will never change my already foolproof position. I suppose "debate" for an INTP is more an exploration into something we absolutely hope the other person can provide. This should be seen as a sign of respect in that we are opening our own idea to criticism in the hopes that the other person can provide any reason at all to change our prebuilt worldview. This is incredibly rare and if you have the ability to change an INTP's mind through debate, you have done something impressive for sure. Protip to other INTP's - Don't debate with feelers, they will never make sense and you will come across as completely insensitive. Discussions on the other hand are fine if you start playing with your Fe, no-one expects that!
(INTJ) I would generally agree. My brothers are INTP and sometimes their emotions start to flow, and it's almost as if you're starting to chip down into a religious belief or something. [edit]: Sometimes they make "low blows" and move outside the realm of objective facts and start to moralise a topic that doesn't warrant such behaviour. I don't know if we "love to be wrong", but I get excited by the idea of having a new, better, more accurate understanding. I want to drill down to the truth of the matter as well, but my ego doesn't need to be part of the equation -- if this person knows the answer that I don't then great, it saves me having to do more work! Though I have a fellow INTJ friend who deliberately starts "arguments" which are often genuinely hilarious just to see where it goes. Sometimes one of us will say, "fancy an argument?" I'm not sure which category that falls into though, they're usually surreal topics.
I really agree! Some people say that INTJs love debates, but I don't like debates. However, I do LOVE discussions. I want people to point out where I'm wrong because it helps me improve myself.
@@psychologyofgrowth I had an INTP friend for way too long. He was initially a friend of a friend. He was kind of boring in a persistently selfrighteus way. I found that curious, I didnt know much about idiots at that time, so thought it could be outgrown or something. It was a somewhat weird friends group. After 7 years i had a breakdown and wanted to get new friends, but was strongly adviced to keep being friends with them... And since I lacked selfesteem... I laterfound out he had a crush on me, wich made his debate culture go total retard. Lets just say Im more happy with no friends than toxic friends
@@leotruclesobticuma7405 Is your statement "I had an INTP friend for way too long...I didn't know much about idiots at that time" for real? I wonder how he could be your friend for seven years. I have lost interest in talking to you in just 15 seconds. How some one so close minded could be a partner for either discussion or debate?
INTJ here. INTPs are generally OK and I usually get along with them, but their impulse to doubt and question things that are proven beyond any reasonable doubt, just for the sake of doing that sometimes gets on my nerves.
Haha, absolutely!!! I have a video about the relationship between the ENFP and the INTP, there' you can notice my frustration because of this very reason: th-cam.com/video/SylLMSLFRRg/w-d-xo.html
INTP here; I hate debating with others, but I love debating myself internally. If I say/share something, I know its value. For that reason I hate repeating myself and only state things once! It is on you whether you use it or disregard; I frankly do not care.🤷🏻♂️🧊
Any fact backed by evident is acceptable. I am an INTJ and i hate to debate. it takes you no where.
My Tertiary Te agrees with you!!
I 100% agree with your analysis of debate/discussion. As an INTJ I do not care for debating I am far more open to discussing topics instead. My Te likes to gather others thoughts and information through discussions, not debating. Ti = debate and Te = discussion.
I love Ti users to help me see through all of the possible errors that my idea or project can have. They are just great at that. At questioning the why behind and the why not.
But Ti can be very hard to deal with for Te. Not only because of the debates, but also because of their decision-making deficiency due to questioning everything just in a boring and excessive way. among other.
I couldn’t live with that next to me 😂
I disagree!
Not really. hehe (INTJ)
Hey, Mindi
I see it like the intp is hardwired with the possibility of Exception on at all times, whereas the intj is not always focused on the possibility of an Exception.
Both intps and intjs can develop unique and clever perspectives, but where debate is concerned the intp will most likely be looking for flaws in their opponent's logic and the intj will most likely be looking for flaws in their own logic.
You said that so beautifully and purposefully. I can see your Te working efficiently, dear Black Fence Cat!
@@psychologyofgrowth Thank you.
In my personal experience as an INTP (tested quite a few times, because...doubt), I've come across many situations where someone continuously tells me something as if it's a fact, and I ask why they think that. Because I would like them to back up what they say with some evidence. I genuinely want to know perspectives, because I know that there's the possibility of flaws in the way I think. For me, the debating happens when the person consistently does this, and seems to expect me to feel the same way as they do, and act accordingly. So, I dunno. *Throws up hands in confusion*
Nathan Wilson hey! Thanks for sharing.
You sound indeed like an INTP...
Here’s how I interpret what you just said 🙃 “Back up your evidence, plz. Show me that I’m wrong because I’m always afraid that my system has flaws... but no matter what you say, I’ll always continue to ask for more evidence because I’ll always be afraid of the possible flaws of my own system. It’s actually one of my biggest fears in life: not knowing the real truth”
@@psychologyofgrowth Ha! It's more like 'If you feel so strongly about this that you keep stating it as a fact, and seem to want me to believe it, and act on it, give me evidence.' Responses like 'That's just the way it is' mean nothing to me, if your whole aim is to change my mind, cuz I have thought it through already, and came to a conclusion with the information that I have at the time, so what's your new information that I haven't considered? 😋
Debating is great because it put things into perspective and when truth is put into practice it is irrefutable. Don't expect an INTP to back down to any type although if an INTP stops debating it's usually because they detect their opponent can't take their own 'truth' any further.
As I said for INTPs it’s about trying to proof the truth of the other wrong. That’s so tiring for non Ti users. Like kill me! 😂
@@psychologyofgrowth We can't help it! lol 😅
What if we (INTJ) have out-manoeuvred you as we planned and you run into a brick wall? (I find that's when my INTP brothers start getting emotional and petty, hehe)
@@johnknight9150 Well, there are INTPs with a lot of pride and want to think that they know it all. I'm not that kind of INTP. I only debate if I feel like I have a sound position or I'm just exercising my strongest functions as INTPs are wont to do.
@@kevrokka.d.9749 You only debate if you feel like you have a sound position? I think that is a difference between J and P here. We will debate a possibly weak position in order to see if it has merit, putting the idea through a crucible.
This was explained the best way I have ever heard. I have tried to explain this to Ti Dominants so many times, and they just tell me to come back with better arguments. lol. I am an INTJ and been into Jungian psychology for about 6 years now and bingeing your channel tonight has helped me have a bunch of epiphanies. Thank you!
Totally agree
I wasn't sure about my type because sometimes I don't want to debate and people may think that I'm loyal and don't want to hurt someone. So I thought I was F type. But it was strange to hear words like 'loyal' or 'gentle' to my address... And then I understood I just don't want to argue if there's no value and at the beginning, I know that we will not come to a conclusion that'll make sense. How many times do we spend our energy on meaningless debates? I just can say nothing and it's not because I Can hurt someone... There's no value.
But I enjoy watching others debating - sometimes learn things from it.
There are some types that like debating and they do it VERY WELL
And they interested in it
A lot of things to put in my had while watching
(INTJ)
love your content, thank you
Hi Alina. “I don’t want to argue if there’s no value”. Tell that to a Ti user, even INFJs and they would argue back at you saying that there’s always value to be found. Which brings me to say how much I understand you. Yes, debating makes no sense, even for feelers like me.
That’s we’re ENFPs and INTJs share values as well, I’ve noticed. We don’t like either to spend energy or time at it. I prefer watching the debates as well because I can take what is in line with my values (or research) and ignore the rest and continue with my life after that haha
Thank you btw 😘
Peak intj moment when you don't argue not because it will upset people but because it will be pointless
Im an INTP. I don't like holding an incorrect position on something but I accept I might have gaps in knowledge or may hold incorrect beliefs and eagerly welcome new knowledge so long as it's reasoned. I hold rationality in high regard and welcome anyone to challenge my knowledge in conversation. I find INTJs more rigid with their knowledge. I'm happy to present opposing opinions and strongman both in order to come to some outcome. It seems my conversations with INTJs they only hold to one side in the sense that it may define their identity in some way.
You video seems to indicate that INTPs debate via subjective truths yet we always seek the objective.
For us to lose the debate is a great way to expand our knowledge.
We are always wanting to know more.
I like this feedback :) You might like to check my newest video about INTPs experience of romantic love th-cam.com/video/Kc5gRKDUzXM/w-d-xo.html
5:03 and pause - "One does not simply Debate." ^^,
On a more serious note: Yes you are very much correct. I would sometimes engage in a discussion about a subject with the sole purpose to gain/share an understanding, to share insights, share and gain knowledge. But I've come to the conclusion that in most cases - it's not worth it because most people would somehow mistake my intent of discussion for Debate and cling to their understanding of a subject as a part of their ego, sometimes percieving the discussion as very adversarial, not something I'd be interested in.
For some reason (unknown to me) - the best discussions I've ever had have been with my INFP friend, I can appreciate how authentic (sometimes very direct) my friend can be, how clear and insightful his Ne perceptions and insights might be. Strong oppinions, yet open minded. Any ideas why that might be?
-INTJ
Haha all the time that happened to me with my ENTP friends. They just wanted to debate like for real. My Ti is very poor, even further than yours!
Why INFPs and INTJs can talk so well? I guess because of their Authenticity (Fi) that you know as well but that they master. Plus their Ne is very complimentary to your Ni. They expand and you extract the very heart of what they are saying. It’s my guess.
@@psychologyofgrowth An insightful, concise and educated guess. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and understanding. I can easily imagine how a conversation with you could be curious and interesting.
Whatever your goal is with youtube - I hope you succeed.
@@nigt0wl341 Thank you!! Soon you will be able to book time with me, and chat about stuff :) Working on that!
Here's one difference (as I see it): The INTJ's faith (Ni dominant and Te parent) is stronger than his or her skepticism (Ne nemesis and Ti critic) whereas the INTP's skepticism (Ti dominant and Ne parent) is stronger than his or her faith (Te nemesis and Ni critic). (I just made this up. But tell me why I'm wrong and I'll change my position.)
Simply put, the INTJ is usually on a mission, whereas it's more likely for the INTP to be interested in the knowledge as an end in itself.
Tehufn very nicely said!!
I(INTJ) agree, I can have very strong faith in a certain truth UNTILL, I find solid reason disputing this truth, then I will 100% delve into this new argumen(s) to find out if my logic to find out the TRUTH. We are like a plain on auto pilot but we wont hesitate to change trajectory if needed.
Very true, great comment.
I am an INTP(possible INTJ??) and I hate debate because I like to be open minded and hopefully learn something new in a discussion. It helps me fix logical flaws in my thinking. I care about learning, not winning. I like how discussions are not structured and basically gives me freedom to talk about anything. I want to share my knowledge with others in discussion
Sounds more like extroverted thinking than like introverted thinking, in my opinion. So yes, it sounds more like INTJ than like INTP... but this is not enough information. You might need to learn about cognitive functions or get help by someone who knows about it. I do that, you can email me if you need help.
@@psychologyofgrowth is it possible to use both Te and Ti. But i tend to prefer Ti
@@airplanesli3590 by nature if you’re an INTP you’ll be using Ti. Like breathing, it’s their nature when they don’t try. And Te instead will be familiar, like a far away cousin you know is your family but you can’t talk to them like you do to the cousin that grew up in your neighbourhood.
You can learn more about Te and get better by training yourself... but Ti is the nature of INTPs
@@psychologyofgrowth guess im a ti user then. i analyze like everything instead of making efficient decisions lol. I love your content. subbed btw:)
@@airplanesli3590 thank youuu! And yes you sound like Ti :)
I have 2 modes, I either debate to learn by putting into test the new concepts, or I debate for fun when I am confident that my position is correct. I'd seek out people with vastly different perspective and thus came into different conclusions, and see if I can poke holes to their argument or see if they find a hole in mine where I didn't find a hole before.
Example of my 1st mode is me participating in "discussions" in personality database to debate personalities of fictional characters
Example of my 2nd mode is me debating evolution against creationists when I graduated with minor in biology. Or against flat earth. Or against astrologist. Basically everyone against mainstream science.
-bored INTP
as a primarily INTJ who has sometimes also tested as an INTP (like 5% of the time. i was a psych major in college and have taken the MBTI MULTIPLE times), i feel like i have an EXTRAORDINARILY INTIMATE/PERSONAL perspective of BOTH sides of this...
as far as how they approach nearly EVERY aspect of life...
think of perspective/approach to ANYthing as though its trapped in/part of a funnel.
INTPs are EXPANSIVE - they start at the narrow end of the funnel and work their way out. they see ALL of the POSSIBILITIES. INTJs are REDUCTIVE - they start at the wide part of the funnel and are GREAT at boiling things down to their most essential/crucial aspects.
Debate is kind of pointless to be honest. Most people are not open to re-evaluating their beliefs and what they think they know. A lot of people have engraved their opinions into who they are as a person, so they just get emotional when you engage them, so I don't even bother. I just feel like it is a pointless battle that does nothing. A discussion is good as long as both parties are open to it, but debates are rarely worth the energy.
@Doug Joseph Debates are awesome, but I can count on my hands the number of people who I've had a good debate with who didn't turn it into an argument. It's a very hard thing to find someone who knows how to debate.
@Doug Joseph There are multiple definitions of 'argument'. The one you're referring to and the one used in the context I used it are two different variations for the meaning of the word.
@Aubatron I could not agree more.
@Doug Joseph You are very much correct in regards to expectation, and I don't expect it, it's kind of a rarity, one which most often requires an analysis of both the social situation and the person with whom I would consider discussing a complex idea/subject (for.. kind of obvious reasons.).
I do suspect however - you might've missed what I percieve as a crucial part of Aubatron's comment in regards to the subject of debate - "...Rarely worth the energy."
I do agree that debate(preferably objective and productive) is part of civilization, it's most likely a very important and nescessary one, even healthy relationships require the element of debate in both literal and abstract sense, in other words - humans need someone to contend with on some level to help us learn and grow. But Debate is probably not nescessary on a daily basis, it's kind of draining.
The problem with debates is that many (or most) people step into them with the sole idea of winning. So no matter what you say they'll always find the way of making their point valid even if it's bullshit, or else, they'll try to keep the conversation as open and endless as possible because they don't want to loose.
Either way a waste of time. My Te says: "we should be learning something from here... where are we going to with this? my time is running off, bitch!" Lol
I find as a entp, I prefer intjs, I dont agree , intps want the truth, and they dont have a issue with it sounding like a debate and going on and on to see the intjs flaw..intp goes by ethics not personal values..
Ti (hero)breaks everything down with logic, Ni(hero) is not rational.
I love intjs but we tend to come to the same conclusions just differently ..
well. a friend of mine helped me set up cortana from microsoft for the first time. asked me what to call me. he suggested master for a name. so I guess to say I did not debate but it was a master baiting thing.
haha great example.
Very intriguing content. So from what I understand that you said, the difference lies in the fact that the INTP has a care belief that there is or can be an ultimate truth and so they are driven to seek confirmation of that belief and because of the "debate" aspect, they are also driven to reject anything that causes them cognitive dissonance. This essentially gives them more of a sense of pride in what they see as "true" and also more disagreeableness in general compared to the INTJ. The INTJ is aware that truth is a construct based off of perception/perspective. So to see the same thing from 2 different angles is to call into reality 2 different truths. Given that everything is or can be true, they are more willing to accept conflicting information as possible if not true. What the INTP sees as objective data from their individual point of view, the INTJ sees as subjective data based on the collective points of view. So I can see how the INTJ could be seen as more humble for sure. That makes sense. 6 yrs ago I was an INTP. Tonight I tested as an INTJ. Thank you for helping me understand this better. Great video!
Hi everyone, in case you’re interested I have made a video a while ago about INTPs and ENFPs struggles in a relationship. Very much related to the Ti vs Te problem. The video is here:
th-cam.com/video/SylLMSLFRRg/w-d-xo.html
summary;
my normality have played among the comprehensiveness and apprehensiveness, as though sometimes I debate with no goals but to educate them that what I perceive whether right or wrong but objectively for the good reasons over the bad one
INTJ here. Yes, I discuss 99% of the time. Debated only when someone was being stupidly irrational but was an important person to me. SOo, an INTJ would debate if they care about the "person" deeply. They will not debate nor care to correct even if the person is making a statement on the "thing" or "topic" that they (INTJs) love. Only when they 'care' about the "person", they will try to debate or correct them. That is my experience, generalized. Haha ^^
I'm an intp and I can say I don't like debating because most of the time people debate in the position of im right and you are wrong. It feels like a waste of time to debate most of the time. Now if the other person is intellectual and open minded I can enjoy the debate but see it more as a discussion to uncover the underlying issue and how we can come up with a resolution that is correct. If you can prove me wrong logically I will admit defeat but most of the time people get too emotional during debates and I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
I am an [INTJ-T] or introverted intuitive thinking grudging - turbulent and
I think that you hit the spot with multiple points
Thank you for your comment 🤗
My 4 fave people in my life are intp, infp, intj and infj. I love them all because I can be myself and part of that is debates 😍 intj will challenge me, almost aggressively, he makes me second guess myself which is kinda hard considering it's usually a topic I know a lot about x infp.. Well... I could be having a conversation with myself, and yet they always add a deeper layer, something I feel I SHOULD have thought about but got lost somehow. Infj.. I'm scared.. to be honest.. She gets a little offended at my bluntness and encourages me to see things more from the other person's perspective..she's deep, Insightful and a little more forgiving then I can be..I'm usually in awe.. and I can learn from her. She takes EVERYTHING to a whole new level 😂😂 intp.. Well.. She's probably where I feel most at home. Talking to my intp is taking the simplest of conversations and expanding on them creating galaxies x we literally talk about one thing for hours, detouring, coming back and analysing EVERYTHING again
I know it's off topic but omg I love your hair.. So much 😭😭😭😭 you're so pretty..💕
Thanks for sharing! Such a nice view of the other types.
You know some people think that because I talk about INTPs Ti on my videos and say I don’t like it it means that I don’t like them. Not at all. I do like the capacity they have to help me see a problem, situation or even a possible enterprise from all of the angels and it’s possible failure points. That’s just mind blowing. That capacity they have to see everything from every side.
Said that, I don’t need to debate about everything just for the sake of having a debate.
INFJs are Ti users as well, but weaker than INTPs. It’s their third function. They do like a bit of spicy controversy but they have before Ti Fe, which makes them softies. And yes they are just mind blowing.
Rayne bow aww and thank you 🥰🤗
Noo, I never picked up on that! I think I just relate to your channel so much I've been over sharing.. I'm such a noob lol.. Please keep doing what you're doing x x really appreciate it x
Rayne bow ❤️❤️❤️
If an INTP likes to “debate” because they’re trying to find objective reality and no one “bounces” the concept back objectively, that’s neither a debate nor a discussion.
Communication is a more apt term and you can’t really split hairs here. Either someone is seeking to learn and understand or someone is seeking to assert and presume.
Only one of these approaches to communication is stupid... assuming you’re a member of a communal species.
-INTP
INTPs assert and presume far more than they would like to admit. Things start out nicely enough, but can get a little nasty and petty once the objective material runs out.
Is it a bad thing that i want to debate this
Haha absolutely! Go ahead. Someone might want to debate back 😅
Debates are like war there won't be any fruits of of it. In a discussions people are more likely admit that they are wrong or arguments that they are using are bad and they try new way. That why i don't like a debates and if i need to be in one i still focusing to not debating but discusing. This gives me an advantage over a enemy team. People see who is for example pissed off.
Are you really an ENFP? That bedroom looks organized! I've only met two ENFP in my life and their rooms were kind of messy
I am an ENFP very much. I hate organising but I hate it more to live in a chaos. That’s why I won less things, it’s also easier to be clean haha
Intp are humble too. You said it: for them debating it's just an exercise, humble because they know that they don't have the true. Intj just want useful information, when they got it, that's enough.
Being humble in this case (which you mentioned) is very subjective. Who says that? IF you ask me I can tell you that INTJs can be humble as well, they accept that they don't know something, can move on with their lives, and they most likely will investigate later without having to go on a spiral as an INTP could do. From the INTP perspective that's just a natural and humble way of doing things. You see? IT all depends on the observer.
hmmm... as an intp... this was very very strange! we debate? 🤔 entp’s debate! lol
i’m just curious of other’s views, way of thinking, perspectives, interests, etc. Just like to listen. :)
as for figuring out the truth... i do that on my own, with the help of media.
the skeptical intp vs dogmatic intj thing is so true tho. skeptics vs scientists. :p
I will rephrase this: Intps are not into arguing with everybody. That’s not what I mean :) I mean that when they have opened to someone, talking with someone close to them and they feel confortable enough they would challenge their opinions, and everything else in between 😅. Watch my newest video about INTPs I go in depth about how Intps are in relationships - I talk about this there - th-cam.com/video/Kc5gRKDUzXM/w-d-xo.html
From my experience, INTPs absolutely hate being in debates. What they like is causal brainstorming over ideas they have no emotional investment in.
Meanwhile, literally every INTJ I have met loves debate and discussion alike. They thrive on it. ...though not as much as an ENTP might.
Being 'wrong' is half the excitement learning truth. Some serious dopamine may occur (P).
I like this! 🙌🏻
Love a bit of Santana!😎
Oye cómo va!!! 🎶🎵
@@psychologyofgrowth 🤩
Agreed! I am an INTJ, and I love productive, stimulating, and informative discussion. In contrast, I find debate to be tedious, draining, and of little to no utility.
I knew it!! 😀
Knowing someone is right about something can not at times be proven wrong until they draft certain things into public. however cornavirus has proven insights also needs to declassify certain warning information that is opposite to the relationship value. however the relationship value might have been in hindering creditworthyness of CCP. such might boil down to random choices to find faults of choice making potential in criteria of efforts. an ill authortiy model is lacking in authority models in authoritarian model in chinas works at times it seems.
I'm sorry but you are confusing INTP and ENTP. The "INTP" in this video is more of ENTP. You seem to ignore the Ti dominant aspect of INTP and see the type merely with Ne characteristics.
I am an INTP, and debating is my everyday routine, however, i don't debate just because I like it. Ti is about "truth". "I have this "truth", here it is, I'm telling you what it is and why your "truth" is wrong".
Of course I can present hundreds of scenarios to prove why my debate opponent is wrong (which might make me or any INTPs come across as ENTPs), but the mission is to put my "truth" on the table and for it to be accepted. You can say that I debate to win because i don't go to a debate to test my ideas, I already thought through those ideas in my head, i already debated myself and already sure those ideas are foolproof, or i wouldn't be confident presenting them. I am confident in my Ti, while ENTP are confident in their Ne.
In other words, because the mission is to put that truth on the table and for it to be accepted (not accepted is fine, but I debate to win, accepted or not, i know I'm right), then an INTP will end a debate quicker than an ENTP, because I know I'm right, and my truth is foolproof, also the fact it's easy to see the loopholes in others statements
INTPs do play devil's advocate, but the nonstop debating in your video is more ENTP than INTP. I don't deny about "putting doubts" in other people's minds (this is more Ne), yes i do this, but the priority is to put my Ti perspectives for others to see. Because Ti being dominant function its more about problem solving than endless rabbit holes of speculations (Ne). If i don't know what I'm talking about, then i will not talk about it until i can solve it.
I am INTP and I must agree with you here. The "debate" has already been explored with Ne+Ti before even opening my mouth. Therefore my stance in a debate is logically foolproof to me and not really up for debate. The reason I open my mouth at all is to prospect with my Ne, challenging the other persons position. If the other person cannot or will not entertain a logical discussion (reacts with emotional reasoning) between the stances I immediately drop the "debate". Without logic I will never change my already foolproof position.
I suppose "debate" for an INTP is more an exploration into something we absolutely hope the other person can provide. This should be seen as a sign of respect in that we are opening our own idea to criticism in the hopes that the other person can provide any reason at all to change our prebuilt worldview. This is incredibly rare and if you have the ability to change an INTP's mind through debate, you have done something impressive for sure.
Protip to other INTP's - Don't debate with feelers, they will never make sense and you will come across as completely insensitive. Discussions on the other hand are fine if you start playing with your Fe, no-one expects that!
(INTJ) I would generally agree. My brothers are INTP and sometimes their emotions start to flow, and it's almost as if you're starting to chip down into a religious belief or something. [edit]: Sometimes they make "low blows" and move outside the realm of objective facts and start to moralise a topic that doesn't warrant such behaviour. I don't know if we "love to be wrong", but I get excited by the idea of having a new, better, more accurate understanding. I want to drill down to the truth of the matter as well, but my ego doesn't need to be part of the equation -- if this person knows the answer that I don't then great, it saves me having to do more work!
Though I have a fellow INTJ friend who deliberately starts "arguments" which are often genuinely hilarious just to see where it goes. Sometimes one of us will say, "fancy an argument?" I'm not sure which category that falls into though, they're usually surreal topics.
Loved this!! Thanks for sharing 😊
I really agree! Some people say that INTJs love debates, but I don't like debates. However, I do LOVE discussions. I want people to point out where I'm wrong because it helps me improve myself.
Debateing with INTPs feel like being stuck in hell
Peter Juhl 😂😂😂😂 yes! In the hell of Dante Alighieri. A spiral with more complexity in every level, that takes you literally nowhere out of that hell.
@@psychologyofgrowth I had an INTP friend for way too long. He was initially a friend of a friend. He was kind of boring in a persistently selfrighteus way. I found that curious, I didnt know much about idiots at that time, so thought it could be outgrown or something. It was a somewhat weird friends group. After 7 years i had a breakdown and wanted to get new friends, but was strongly adviced to keep being friends with them... And since I lacked selfesteem... I laterfound out he had a crush on me, wich made his debate culture go total retard. Lets just say Im more happy with no friends than toxic friends
Peter Juhl totally understandable
@@leotruclesobticuma7405
Is your statement "I had an INTP friend for way too long...I didn't know much about idiots at that time" for real?
I wonder how he could be your friend for seven years.
I have lost interest in talking to you in just 15 seconds.
How some one so close minded could be a partner for either discussion or debate?
@@farral Right?!
INTJ here. INTPs are generally OK and I usually get along with them, but their impulse to doubt and question things that are proven beyond any reasonable doubt, just for the sake of doing that sometimes gets on my nerves.
Haha, absolutely!!! I have a video about the relationship between the ENFP and the INTP, there' you can notice my frustration because of this very reason: th-cam.com/video/SylLMSLFRRg/w-d-xo.html
Sooooo accurate.
Thanks for the feedback! Curious to know what you think of this video th-cam.com/video/Kc5gRKDUzXM/w-d-xo.html
@@psychologyofgrowth lol, THAT video brought me to THIS video! Haha .. I sent that video to my INTP brother.
U look so gud 😍 👍
💗
INTP here; I hate debating with others, but I love debating myself internally.
If I say/share something, I know its value. For that reason I hate repeating myself and only state things once!
It is on you whether you use it or disregard; I frankly do not care.🤷🏻♂️🧊