agree all the tractor pulls ive been to all the old timers say the same thing. my friend has a few and he too just let them idle. and the old timers said to bring them over and hook belts to their different equipment and it ran much better. there another channel billtmaxx he has a few small ones he pulls out every once in a while. he has done a few videos of him and his father at tractor pulls doing hay with a small bale hay maker his dad made. bill also has a desk top hit and miss that runs off of zippo liter fluid it actually runs. he shares the link to buy it and it was 300 Canadian dollars so only a hundred our us dollars lol
*That is what I instinctively wanted to do, too. I don't know why it was instinctive. Before I saw your post I had put that up as my suggestion here, too.*
Scrolled down looking for this specific comment, or to make it myself. These old girls need to be under load for them to run properly, they weren't designed to freewheel like that.
@@DMPB-fi2ir Right, but they are designed to fire less often when the load is reduced(or removed). That's why they are called hit & miss engines, because they don't fire(ie. "hit") on every ignition stroke. Therefore, they purposely "miss" more often than they hit when not under load. The problem with ^this engine isn't that it's missing. The problem here seems to be the double-suck intake thing that its doing. I've seen some of these engines that will fire once, then continue to freewheel(miss) for a surprisingly _long_ time before the centrifugal governor finally slows down enough to cause them to fire again. But I've never heard one doing the double intake thing this one is doing.
Memories! Thanks for the video! When I was a kid in the late 40's in South Missouri we had a stubborn farmer who had a tractor that had a "hit and miss" engine and we could hear his engine long before he got to the village. They would sometimes set up a thrashing machine with those very long wide leather belts on those huge pulleys and our parents would spend all their time keeping us kids from getting entangled! Best of luck!
JS, Best way to stop wasting your time keeping kids away from the belt is to let them get mangled. Once. Once is about all it takes ( unless the kid is particularly slow learning ) . . .
Smart dude!!! I just saw a great display of working hit and miss engines at a county fair. An old-timer did his best to explain the "technology" behind the old engines to me. They are a true marvel given their age and the technology of the day. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Where I grew up in Texas there was an oil well about a half mile as crow flies from our house in the country. I can still hear that hit n miss engine running that well in my head. You could tell exactly where it was on the stroke just by listening. I miss hearing that old well engine run......
I lived near one and falling asleep was hard as it was not a steady hit and miss. My neighbor finally snapped and shot it with his 30-06. The oil company replaced the engine with a silent tiny inline 4 cylinder and all neighbors were thankful.
Same here raised in Kermit TX miss that old sound. With the pump going up it popped every time. Going down it sputtered. Needs a load on it to run right.
That is a beautiful old engine. Oilwell Supply Co was a predecessor to NOV i.e. National Oilwell Varco. NOV is possibly the biggest oilfield equipment manufacturer in the world.
I have a friend that had twenty or thirty of the old "hit & miss" engines. I was amazed at his ability to get these old engines to run. There used to be a collectors show in Adams, Tennessee every year. Some were really big engines with six foot diameter fly wheels.
They used them alot on the railroads back in the day, not for the trains but I imagine since it's a pump they used them to pump water and maybe other thing's. The old O&W railway by me there is one of these pumps by an old train tunnel
A lot of the big oilfield engines are like this. Hot tube ignition is dead simple, nothing to wear out or get stuck. And it was common for these engines to burn wellhead gas, so they are supplied with LPG in preservation.
You're on the right track with an accumulator - a lot of those old engines had a piece of casing with the ends welded shut used as an expansion or accumulator tank to give the engine an easy slurp of fuel instead of drawing through the restrictive regulator....it also separated out moisture from the gas
@@yokiniqu I'm only 25 min into the film but I'm wondering about the temperature of the inlet pipe. In the UK we have at various times seen amounts of LPG powered vehicles because of the price of petrol. (gasoline) They are all a bitch in cold weather to get any cabin heating because the coolant water is first run through a pre heater for the inlet LPG mixture and the pre heater takes quite an amount of heat. Is the low temp of the intake mixture killing the first combustion?
@@COIcultist This is why the best LPG conversion systems inject liquid gas. They cost more, but repay with better fuel economy and fewer warm up issues.
Outstanding effort! " more fuel and intake valve spring pressure" I believe this sentiment was echoed many years later by the Ramchargers in Detroit. Fantastic video! My 93 year old Mom remembers the kerosene hit and miss on the front porch washing clothes.
Man that engine sounds like a hit or miss type. I remember these from my grandfather's oil well but never could figure out where it got it power to pump. I saw the flame but that is all I knew. Of course I was to young to be able to go near it but do remember these some. As for the buzzards they only fly over me when I have not showered in a few weeks or months. By all means ask the professionals about this and show us again when running better. Thanks for sharing.
I agree that engines of this type benefit from a load. It stabilizes the entire system and matches the input fuel power with an appropriate load. Even purely mechanical systems require balance. That said, AWESOME diagnostic path and a brilliant resurrection of this antiquarian engineering marvel. You, young man, are a genius. It is a privilege to watch you work and follow your logic. Thanks for sharing. Be safe. What a pepper engine. Generator power using stone knives and bear skins. Realize this is a prime mover capable of operating on any combustible gas and technically approachable with rudimentary iron casting capability. Quite amazing and thanks again for opening my eyes. You rock, be safe. LL&P (couldn't find a Vulcan salute) 👍
Not sure how many times it died from over rich mixture... Then tried to add more fuel pressure. Not the direction my mind was taking. I would have tried killing it from leaning it out a couple times too. Just to take note of any behavior changes for better or worse. In any case, I enjoyed the video and the making of the valve too. Cool old engine. Love this old stuff. Thanks for taking me/us along for the journey. 👍
I'd bet issue with the double intake stroke is like others have said, no load. I'm thinking the reason is because with out a load the engine is so close to governed speed it takes that second intake stroke to slow it down enough to actually fire. Although, you may be onto something with the intake valve tension (as others have also mentioned). I look forward to seeing the next episode with hopefully a solution to the problem. Keep up the awesome content! Stay safe out there! Dan @6-4_Fab Glen Rock, PA
That doesn't make much sense, though; If the engine has slowed down enough to let the exhaust valve close, and for the compression stroke to occur, then it should fire. That leaves timing, fuel or ignition as the other possible culprits. It could be timing, if the exhaust stroke isn't timed correctly or the governor isn't releasing the valve properly, you could be losing a partial compression stroke causing it to have to come around a second time. The ignition tube might not be hot enough without a compression stroke to heat it up just enough to work. Seems unlikely but who knows.. not much else to go wrong with that ignition system! Fuel, I have no idea. I'd think that if adjusting the fuel mix at the valve didn't help then there's not much else to fiddle with. Might also be that the exhaust valve isn't closing properly, so the intake stroke "leaks" air back through the exhaust and doesn't take a proper charge of fresh air and fuel. Reducing the spring tension ought to compensate for that but maybe not. Odd that such a simple machine could be so difficult to troubleshoot!
It's not the lack of load, the gas supply is constantly on so while the engine is 'missing' and winding down the intake bowl is filling with gas, the first intake stroke is then super rich, then the second intake is right.
@@I_M_Nonno Correct, which is exactly the issue, the gas is collecting in the bowl above the valve for that 1-2 sec as it slows down. The gas delivered in the time between the two intake strokes is obviously the correct amount because it fires, so you can imagine just how much gas has collected in the 1-2sec it takes to slow down.
*Nice fixup job, Mike. I instantly wanted to put even the slightest load on the drive pulley wheel to see if that would take away the "double-suck". Simple. Quick check. Easy to do.* *A long 2x4, backed or footed steady to the ground on 'backside'/furthest from the propane tank, and the side where the pulley is spinning downward would easily work just fine. Then just push the 2x4 flat against the spinning pulley and produce a friction load.* *Heck, you could even press the bottom of your shoe against the bully (from the propane tank side) and that might work. Or put a length of 2x4 under the pulley and lift up. Doing this from the side against the 'rock-forward' could be a bit dangerous but might work better.* *It should not need to be said: orient the 'lever' for safety so it doesn't want to fly away/up and hit you in the face.*
I think maybe your problem is with the hot bulb. Maybe dial back that fuel a bit to keep the flame inside the tube, or even possibly remove the insulation. I just realized this video is two years old, so you probably already have it dialed, but I'll leave the comment anyway. Very cool old engine. Thanks for sharing.
Neat engine Mike. My dad's uncle was a machinist at Oil Well Supply in Oil City, PA back in the 1930's - 1950's. I have a hard cover Oil Well Supply book or catalog from back in the late 40's or early 50's that I think my dad had gotten from his uncle when my dad built a scale model of a cable tool drill rig. Thanks for another great & interesting video !
My guess on the double stroke for intake is 2 things. 1. Fuel pressure too high, needs less so the valve can be opened more for greater flow on the draw to keep the top of the cylinder rich enough to light. 2. Exhaust runner too long or not long enough. During the held exhaust valve, enough of the burnt fuel left in the pipe causing it to be recycled back into the cylinder. This is requiring the intake stroke to purge the cylinder since the valve doesn't closed always on the top of the stroke. Then exhaust the purge stroke to draw in enough fresh oxygen to light it off on the seconds stroke.
The cam lobe might be too worn out and you may not have enough cam duration to fill the cylinder. That might be why its double intaking. The piston rings can also be too worn causing low suction/compression and blowback. Increasing the spring tension will make the valve close even faster worsening the situation. Increasing the NG will impede air from getting into the cylinder causing the engine to stall. But before doing any changes you should test it under load to see if it runs better.
In Australia we have traction engines and I just love the sound of them this is awesome thank you for restoring or keeping these old machinery going God bless America and all that lives it
I wonder whether a little more intake manifold before the fuel inlet would help. I'm curious as to how much fuel is blowing away rather than being sucked in, and more pipe prior to the fuel inlet would reduce that.
Man, for the clear-coat alone you deserve a thumbs up and my adulation. That is something I have thought was a far better thing than filling and painting beautiful old cast as many fellows do! Thanks for another pleasan, intelligent and entertaining video Sir!
I just had another thought - LP gas has 2.5 times the BTU per cubic foot compared to natural gas. If the engine is designed for well head gas the orifices around the intake valve seat are likely too large. No different than trying to run a natural gas furnace on LP without changing the orifice - way too rich.
yes its not just pressure its the volume flow , my garden tractor i converted to propane and it steps down main pressure to and a low pressure demand regulator and an orifice that has an adjustment same as a needle valve so basic idea it meters the amount of fuel via the screw adjustment opening and closing the gap for the propane to flow through and at low speed the demand regulator has an adjustment that governors the low speed flow rate. and the basic adjustment is adjusted at 1/4 turn per HP of the engine to allow so it doesnt flood out the engine mix
yus. too rich. not only in the combustion chamber. looks to me like a too-rich flame coming out of the heater-plug chimney. if that burner is given more air, the plug will get hotter and firing will improve. ta daaaaaaaaaa
Some hot bulb engines do not require additional heat to the hot bulb once they have started and settled, the old German prewar tractors started with a blow lamp heating the bulb, then ran on the heat created by the engine itself running.
That sure brings back memories. 60 to 70 years ago uses to drive around the oil fields and could here the chug chug of the pump jack engines. At the time never gave it a thought. Great restoration.
My thoughts on the intake valve is, the vacuum required to open it occurs, the valve opens causing vacuum loss and closes, then as the piston continues to travel down, the vacuum increases again, enough for the valve to open a second time..... I have seen one other engine like yours running, it did the same thing.
The dreaded double gulp lol.. the sniffles of most old engines. The good thing is its a runner. Sounds good Mike, you'll work the bugs out. They all are well past their intended life cycle.. but getting way more oil and love now than when they were new. Nice engine.. I hope to acquire either one of these or a Bovaird & Seyfang or Myrick. Always like the hot tube ignitions. Lot easier than replacing fouled spark plugs constantly haha.
My grandparents had old Jack pumps on their property when I was a kid. I remember hearing those things in the summertime when we would play outside by the pond
Well what's with all these thumbs down? If you thought this was a noisy coffee grinder, then you must be on the wrong channel. Great video, love to hear these girls bark!
The double intake is because while the exhaust is been open and the engine is winding down the intake bowl is filling up with gas, the first intake draw is then extremely rich and will not fire, the next intake is right on the money and fires.
I watched one of these power a pump jank in about 1975 near Beaumont tx. and it would really get to popping on the pump jack up stroke, it was plumed into the well head for fuel, fun to watch good vid, THANX
A coworker of mine has a half dozen of these type engines that he takes to the Indiana State Fair every summer. He always has them trailered up and brings them in for us to tinker with. I swear they sound on the verge of stalling out. But onwards they run. And each one runs on a different fuel. A couple will run on just about any petroleum product made. Fuel oil, diesel, kerosene, you name it.
I'll take a crack at it but someone else may have already said the same thing. The ball valve you're playing with allows full pressure in that pipe down stream to the engine until a couple of strokes clears it out enough that it leans and fires. I'd say you need to regulate the pressure down and open the ball valve 100% then adjust the pressure until it runs properly.
Yes, that is also my opinion. And i think the second problem is the intake Valve not sealing properly, If you watch the pressure gauge at 38:15 you see the needle on the first intake stroke just go down and back up again, that is OK but on the second intake stroke when it actually fires, it goes down and back up and then it jumps even higher and goes back down to normal pressure. So it seems that some exhaust gas gets blown into the gas pipe which raises the pressure. And If that does happen, it is also very likely that there is always some gas leaking in the intake housing, causing a very rich mixture on the first intake stroke. He should lap the valve seat with a very fine lapping compound to create a perfect finish on the valve and its seat.
Make sure the intake valve doesn't leak any gas (on both sides) when it's closed with a bit higher gas pressure. Now when you increase the gas pressure, the valve is letting gas through which will make it run super rich at a certain pressure. You need a stronger spring, a tight valve and seat which can handle a higher gas pressure, and also tune the length of the pipe after the manual control valve.
To my understanding... if the inlet valve does not seal perfectly towards the combustion chamber, the engine presses cylinder gas back into the fuel line and this results in a lean mixture in the next first (non-) firing cycle. A heavier spring or a slighly different valve angle could help
If you watch the pressure at 38:15 you see the needle jump up a little bit when firing , that does not happen on those intake strokes when it fails to fire. So it seems that some exhaust gas is blown back in the gas pipe. But it is also possible that the Gas pressure is too high and there is also some Gas leaking in the intake housing. That causes a too rich mixture on the first working stroke, but on the second working stroke is not enough time for the gas to leak, so the mixture is lean enough to ignite. Both are caused by the valve not sealing properly, you may try to lap the valve with a real fine lapping compound or use some Metal polishing compound to lap the valve seat to get a perfectly smooth Finish.
Because the missing cycle is so long the intake bowl is filling with gas the whole time, first intake is far to rich, second one is right so it fires, then it takes forever to wind down again, filling with gas the whole time.
@@kingcosworth2643 Yes, that is also what i think. That would not happen if the intake valve was sealing properly, maybe a slightly lower gas pressure would also help.
@@Henning_S. Lowering the gas pressure would help a lot, if he regulated it to atmospheric and fitted a venturi to the intake it would only draw the gas when the engine draws intake.
@@kingcosworth2643 It seems to me that the gas inlet is already a venturi. Did you watch the video of making the new intake valve? You can see how the gas inlet works... When the intake valve opens, the air is passing the gas ports in the valve seat with high speed, that should work as a venturi sucking the gas in... It should be easy to test if it works or not. He can just keep lowering the pressure until the gas throttle valve can stay fully opened without the engine dying. But maybe he needs some kind of gas reservoir between the pressure regulator and the gas throttle valve where the engine can suck from. Just a T-fitting with a plastic bottle should be enough for testing.
At the time this engine was made, it was cutting edge technology. This machine could replace a team of men performing menial labor hand pumping for oil. It's fantastic to see it preserved and operational.
You are the guru on the old ones . This is just a thought ;but, If you put a longer runner on the intake ,it might stop the double tap ? Let a little richer charge build up in the runner and then give it a good gulp when the time comes . Just a thought . Love the videos . Love the old motors. Cheers !
I remember that sound from when I was a kid waiting for the bus. The was a man that came every morning around 6:30am and started the motor at the oil well across the road from our place.
Thanks for the interesting video. I had an old friend, since passed on, who lived in Wichita Falls, Texas area as a child. He said that on quiet mornings he could hear these old hit and miss motors miles away. Laying in bed he would hear the thing fire and then a long pause, wondering if the motor would make another revolution; then it would fire again. He mentioned the gas from the well was run through a column of copper wire or copper wool to remove the hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell). In the bottom of the column a crude gasoline he called 'drip gas' would collect and when he was a teenager they would use it when they couldn't afford refined gasoline. Sulfur rich fuel will eat out the copper in bearings, so it had to be removed or bearings without any copper used.
It sounds to me like it is running right. Be careful wrapping your thumb around the crank handle if it backfires you will think it broke your thumb. You should palm the handle started many a motor with that type of crank handle. Enjoyed the video
I think your pressure is still too high mike. when the intake opens it gets an inrush of lp. I ran my bovaird seyfang(40 hp) on next to no pressure. You have probably seen videos of the original gasometers that regulated well head pressure. They provide almost no pressure but a large volume that the engine can suck into itself instaed of being force fed. Just my 2 cents
@@leon.690sm9 I think too... no security at all if it shuts off and the intake valve leaks propane and accumulates in a partially enclosed area... same for the burner. Not even talking about the startup and no guards for the belt and flywheel !
Yes, Mr Simon Johson is right. The engine speed up and the speed governor block the intake valve to avoid overspeeding. The video already show a test holding the governor lever. You need to add some load for continuos operation.
New subscriber here and have been looking through back catatolgue. It is great to see an expert capable of presenting information so clearly. Education and entertainment at the same time!
Hi Small Engine Mechanic, Great video you have produced here, I really enjoyed it, great content. I particularly enjoyed the part at 2:00 explaining the engine. I felt it was really informative and you really brought the point across well. I am really interested in engineering and have had a career in engineering for over 28 years from everything from starting as a mechanics assistant to now a Project Manager. I enjoy sharing my skills and knowledge as well with others like yourself. I have provided training to others and had apprentices work with me to kick start there careers. Many thanks, Great job.
Seems to me it would be fun to find an old pumpjack somewhere, and make a running model ( less an actual well) and run that at a show, driven by this engine.
Just like the old John Deere tractors. When not under a load they fire two or 3 times, the governor is instantly overwhelmed and it has to coast back down and just when you think it's going to die, it fires again. Pop pop pop! thug a thuug a thuuug a thuuuug a thuuuuug as thuuuuuug a thuuuuuuuug a Pop Pop Pop!
I’ve fooled around with quite a few lp or natural gas fueled engines and they are touchy. You are on the right path with a accumulator tank, but also if you would put some type of air dampener on your intake where the two bolt ears are and reduce your pressure to about half what you are you would be golden more pressure just pushes fuel out the intake cutting oxygen if you restrict the pressure and air like a Venturi so to say your problem would be solved. We went through it on a 40hp Clark and a 35 hp reed. And that solved our issues. Happy tinkering and good luck it’s volume not pressure related. Or you could go with an on demand regulator setup for engine fuel supply depending on the parts you have on hand
That's a lovely video bro great engine sound, you did mention it's a 4 stroke engine but if I listen closely it turns 7 times before a ignition stroke, I do accept any engine run on different fuel mixture, tends to show this effect, would be great if you throw some light 👌👌👍👍
Engine is working great right from the get go... And now we know why it is called a hit and miss engine... It hits when it needs to and misses (or conserved fuel and just spins...) when it is going fast enough. It is all in the governor letting the intake valve deliver fuel. You were at the governed rpm and each time the governor let it fire, it put out plenty of power and it would overspeed. With the big flywheels and no load, it only needs to fire every dozen or so rotations in order to keep the same governed speed up. You could load it up to use up more fuel, but it seems to be running just fine at that governed speed. With a load, it'll fire more often, and with no load it will just keep chugging along, firing twice every dozen or so turns.
I visited some oil land in Oklahoma in probably the early 90's, and I heard this strange "popping" noise... I didn't understand what the heck would be making a noise like that, so I took a little hike to follow the sound, and came across something that looked a whole lot like this. It was actively working and driving an oil derrick (rather slowly), and it went something like... pop, pop, pop, pop, ..., ..., pop, pop, ..., pop, pop, pop, ..., pop, ..., pop, ..., pop, pop, ..., pop, pop, pop, ..., pop, pop, pop, pop, pop... In other words, firing on most of the strokes, but slowing down some here and there, rather randomly. It was a rather amazing thing for a teenager to come across, with no introduction. I basically figured out this "hit and miss" business just in listening to it as I hiked over, but I was amazed to see what was obviously some sort of "living antique" toiling away.
@@SmallEngineMechanic I haven't dug into your other videos. Were you able to get this hooked up to some sort of load and have it run in a stable fashion?
I agree with the comments regarding the double intake being an artifact of the fact that it is unloaded. What's going on is that you are constantly dumping fuel into the intake "manifold" ALL THE TIME. If it were hitting on every compression stroke then that would work just fine. But it's not. And when it isn't pulling "air fuel" mixture into the engine, the "intake manifold", as it were, is just saturating with fuel. The engine has to pull that charge in and TRY to burn it but it can't because it is too rich. But the next intake is not too rich and that second intake air-fuel mix WILL burn. One of those big propane regulators that they use on gasoline engine conversions is what you need to run this engine at an unloaded idle. Those only allow fuel into the air stream when the air is being drawn into the engine. But to make that work properly you will need a ventury to get the air moving fast enough to allow the Bernoulli effect to work with the 10 inch propane regulator. If it were only dumping fuel into the intake tube when the air was being drawn into the engine it would work fine.
This engine needs a working load for stability. It was never designed to "idle".
Thanks for sharing 😁
agree all the tractor pulls ive been to all the old timers say the same thing. my friend has a few and he too just let them idle. and the old timers said to bring them over and hook belts to their different equipment and it ran much better. there another channel billtmaxx he has a few small ones he pulls out every once in a while. he has done a few videos of him and his father at tractor pulls doing hay with a small bale hay maker his dad made. bill also has a desk top hit and miss that runs off of zippo liter fluid it actually runs. he shares the link to buy it and it was 300 Canadian dollars so only a hundred our us dollars lol
indeed, they are also constantly using the same amount of fuel regardless , maybe he can get a pump and a barrel to give it some load
*That is what I instinctively wanted to do, too. I don't know why it was instinctive. Before I saw your post I had put that up as my suggestion here, too.*
We have been accumulating loads for our engines, hate to see engines just sitting there running unloaded.
Scrolled down looking for this specific comment, or to make it myself.
These old girls need to be under load for them to run properly, they weren't designed to freewheel like that.
some working engines just dont run well with out load soon as a load comes on they just pick right up
yes under load of a pump the engine would have a totally different sound
@@DMPB-fi2ir
Right, but they are designed to fire less often when the load is reduced(or removed). That's why they are called hit & miss engines, because they don't fire(ie. "hit") on every ignition stroke. Therefore, they purposely "miss" more often than they hit when not under load.
The problem with ^this engine isn't that it's missing. The problem here seems to be the double-suck intake thing that its doing. I've seen some of these engines that will fire once, then continue to freewheel(miss) for a surprisingly _long_ time before the centrifugal governor finally slows down enough to cause them to fire again. But I've never heard one doing the double intake thing this one is doing.
Dad had one and I still got it in very back of barn
Never thought about fixing it but was running when dad got it
Memories! Thanks for the video! When I was a kid in the late 40's in South Missouri we had a stubborn farmer who had a tractor that had a "hit and miss" engine and we could hear his engine long before he got to the village. They would sometimes set up a thrashing machine with those very long wide leather belts on those huge pulleys and our parents would spend all their time keeping us kids from getting entangled! Best of luck!
JS,
Best way to stop wasting your time keeping kids away from the belt is to let them get mangled. Once.
Once is about all it takes ( unless the kid is particularly slow learning ) . . .
Smart dude!!! I just saw a great display of working hit and miss engines at a county fair. An old-timer did his best to explain the "technology" behind the old engines to me. They are a true marvel given their age and the technology of the day. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Sounds like a happy Labrador
Yes, except for those EXPLOSIVE farts! :)
@@YodaWhat except? You mean including. He said a happy labradorite.
My phone changed to labradorite and its staying.
Ha, ha! I thought it sounded like a Lab also.
So damn beautiful!!!! Tears in my eyes. Remembering my long lost childhood. Please keep on going old motors and mechanics!!!!!!
Where I grew up in Texas there was an oil well about a half mile as crow flies from our house in the country. I can still hear that hit n miss engine running that well in my head. You could tell exactly where it was on the stroke just by listening. I miss hearing that old well engine run......
I lived near one and falling asleep was hard as it was not a steady hit and miss. My neighbor finally snapped and shot it with his 30-06. The oil company replaced the engine with a silent tiny inline 4 cylinder and all neighbors were thankful.
@@H2R5GSXR and who says violence never solves problems
Same here raised in Kermit TX miss that old sound. With the pump going up it popped every time. Going down it sputtered. Needs a load on it to run right.
Oilfield engine barker if you want to hear it again.
That is a beautiful old engine. Oilwell Supply Co was a predecessor to NOV i.e. National Oilwell Varco. NOV is possibly the biggest oilfield equipment manufacturer in the world.
Incredible! These engines are so rugged - no wonder they are still going strong. Thanks for the demo!
I have a friend that had twenty or thirty of the old "hit & miss" engines. I was amazed at his ability to get these old engines to run. There used to be a collectors show in Adams, Tennessee every year. Some were really big engines with six foot diameter fly wheels.
I’ve never seen a hot bulb ignited natural gas or propane engine anywhere else ever. Fringing cool man!!!!!
Less fuel ( lean it out )
They used them alot on the railroads back in the day, not for the trains but I imagine since it's a pump they used them to pump water and maybe other thing's. The old O&W railway by me there is one of these pumps by an old train tunnel
Had an old 1903 Reid oil field engine, runs on propane and hot bulb or spark ignition.
A lot of the big oilfield engines are like this. Hot tube ignition is dead simple, nothing to wear out or get stuck. And it was common for these engines to burn wellhead gas, so they are supplied with LPG in preservation.
You're on the right track with an accumulator - a lot of those old engines had a piece of casing with the ends welded shut used as an expansion or accumulator tank to give the engine an easy slurp of fuel instead of drawing through the restrictive regulator....it also separated out moisture from the gas
Agreed, the fact the engine needs to take two sips before firing indicates a lack of fuel initially.
@@yokiniqu I'm only 25 min into the film but I'm wondering about the temperature of the inlet pipe. In the UK we have at various times seen amounts of LPG powered vehicles because of the price of petrol. (gasoline) They are all a bitch in cold weather to get any cabin heating because the coolant water is first run through a pre heater for the inlet LPG mixture and the pre heater takes quite an amount of heat. Is the low temp of the intake mixture killing the first combustion?
@@COIcultist This is why the best LPG conversion systems inject liquid gas. They cost more, but repay with better fuel economy and fewer warm up issues.
"POP , snort snort , whine whine whine.
What a wonderful old engine !
Great work Sir 👍
Outstanding effort! " more fuel and intake valve spring pressure" I believe this sentiment was echoed many years later by the Ramchargers in Detroit. Fantastic video! My 93 year old Mom remembers the kerosene hit and miss on the front porch washing clothes.
I have heard those engines running in the swamps of Louisiana ...They skip until they get under load.....Cheers; Mike
Man that engine sounds like a hit or miss type. I remember these from my grandfather's oil well but never could figure out where it got it power to pump. I saw the flame but that is all I knew. Of course I was to young to be able to go near it but do remember these some. As for the buzzards they only fly over me when I have not showered in a few weeks or months. By all means ask the professionals about this and show us again when running better. Thanks for sharing.
I agree that engines of this type benefit from a load. It stabilizes the entire system and matches the input fuel power with an appropriate load. Even purely mechanical systems require balance.
That said, AWESOME diagnostic path and a brilliant resurrection of this antiquarian engineering marvel. You, young man, are a genius. It is a privilege to watch you work and follow your logic.
Thanks for sharing. Be safe. What a pepper engine.
Generator power using stone knives and bear skins.
Realize this is a prime mover capable of operating on any combustible gas and technically approachable with rudimentary iron casting capability.
Quite amazing and thanks again for opening my eyes.
You rock, be safe.
LL&P
(couldn't find a Vulcan salute)
👍
Thanks for checking it out Jeff! Yes, when loaded up the engine will fire consistently.
P&LL
2:15 Pressures in sane units (metric of course):
10psi = 689mbar
6oz/in² = 10,4 inH2O = 25,9mbar
Love your videos Mike :D
This engine is too old to run on metric gas pressure.
Not sure how many times it died from over rich mixture... Then tried to add more fuel pressure. Not the direction my mind was taking. I would have tried killing it from leaning it out a couple times too. Just to take note of any behavior changes for better or worse. In any case, I enjoyed the video and the making of the valve too. Cool old engine. Love this old stuff. Thanks for taking me/us along for the journey. 👍
I'd bet issue with the double intake stroke is like others have said, no load. I'm thinking the reason is because with out a load the engine is so close to governed speed it takes that second intake stroke to slow it down enough to actually fire. Although, you may be onto something with the intake valve tension (as others have also mentioned). I look forward to seeing the next episode with hopefully a solution to the problem. Keep up the awesome content! Stay safe out there! Dan @6-4_Fab Glen Rock, PA
That doesn't make much sense, though; If the engine has slowed down enough to let the exhaust valve close, and for the compression stroke to occur, then it should fire. That leaves timing, fuel or ignition as the other possible culprits.
It could be timing, if the exhaust stroke isn't timed correctly or the governor isn't releasing the valve properly, you could be losing a partial compression stroke causing it to have to come around a second time.
The ignition tube might not be hot enough without a compression stroke to heat it up just enough to work. Seems unlikely but who knows.. not much else to go wrong with that ignition system!
Fuel, I have no idea. I'd think that if adjusting the fuel mix at the valve didn't help then there's not much else to fiddle with. Might also be that the exhaust valve isn't closing properly, so the intake stroke "leaks" air back through the exhaust and doesn't take a proper charge of fresh air and fuel. Reducing the spring tension ought to compensate for that but maybe not.
Odd that such a simple machine could be so difficult to troubleshoot!
It's not the lack of load, the gas supply is constantly on so while the engine is 'missing' and winding down the intake bowl is filling with gas, the first intake stroke is then super rich, then the second intake is right.
@@kingcosworth2643 I was also kinda thinking that. So what you're saying is that the engine is designed to run this way right?
@@kingcosworth2643 The valve is closed as it's winding down, so no flow right?
@@I_M_Nonno Correct, which is exactly the issue, the gas is collecting in the bowl above the valve for that 1-2 sec as it slows down. The gas delivered in the time between the two intake strokes is obviously the correct amount because it fires, so you can imagine just how much gas has collected in the 1-2sec it takes to slow down.
I want one of these so bad, they sound better than ANY modern engine
I so want this engine,,, back here in England,, we have some super engines back here, but no oil jack engines, thanks for showing
Sure there has been one at The Great Dorset Steam Fair before
@@rtechlab6254 You could be correct? there are so many engines at the GDSF i may have missed it? or even missed the fair that year?
*Nice fixup job, Mike. I instantly wanted to put even the slightest load on the drive pulley wheel to see if that would take away the "double-suck". Simple. Quick check. Easy to do.*
*A long 2x4, backed or footed steady to the ground on 'backside'/furthest from the propane tank, and the side where the pulley is spinning downward would easily work just fine. Then just push the 2x4 flat against the spinning pulley and produce a friction load.*
*Heck, you could even press the bottom of your shoe against the bully (from the propane tank side) and that might work. Or put a length of 2x4 under the pulley and lift up. Doing this from the side against the 'rock-forward' could be a bit dangerous but might work better.*
*It should not need to be said: orient the 'lever' for safety so it doesn't want to fly away/up and hit you in the face.*
I could listen to that sweet sound all day.
I think maybe your problem is with the hot bulb. Maybe dial back that fuel a bit to keep the flame inside the tube, or even possibly remove the insulation. I just realized this video is two years old, so you probably already have it dialed, but I'll leave the comment anyway. Very cool old engine. Thanks for sharing.
Neat engine Mike. My dad's uncle was a machinist at Oil Well Supply in Oil City, PA back in the 1930's - 1950's. I have a hard cover Oil Well Supply book or catalog from back in the late 40's or early 50's that I think my dad had gotten from his uncle when my dad built a scale model of a cable tool drill rig.
Thanks for another great & interesting video !
hay I live there!
That interesting sound when it fires is the echo off the corrugated iron wall of your impliment shed.
You know you are an engine expert when you listen to this engine and know it's not on the verge of a catastrophic failure.
My guess on the double stroke for intake is 2 things.
1. Fuel pressure too high, needs less so the valve can be opened more for greater flow on the draw to keep the top of the cylinder rich enough to light.
2. Exhaust runner too long or not long enough. During the held exhaust valve, enough of the burnt fuel left in the pipe causing it to be recycled back into the cylinder. This is requiring the intake stroke to purge the cylinder since the valve doesn't closed always on the top of the stroke. Then exhaust the purge stroke to draw in enough fresh oxygen to light it off on the seconds stroke.
The cam lobe might be too worn out and you may not have enough cam duration to fill the cylinder. That might be why its double intaking.
The piston rings can also be too worn causing low suction/compression and blowback.
Increasing the spring tension will make the valve close even faster worsening the situation.
Increasing the NG will impede air from getting into the cylinder causing the engine to stall.
But before doing any changes you should test it under load to see if it runs better.
In Australia we have traction engines and I just love the sound of them this is awesome thank you for restoring or keeping these old machinery going God bless America and all that lives it
I'd love to find an old hit and miss engine to rebuild and clean up, they just sound sooooo good!
I bet there is and antique engine and tractor show not too far from you. That would be where I would look. Thanks for watching!
Great engine, thanks for bringing it back to life. Thought I had seen most every type of engine but the hot tube ignition is a new one on me.
I wonder whether a little more intake manifold before the fuel inlet would help. I'm curious as to how much fuel is blowing away rather than being sucked in, and more pipe prior to the fuel inlet would reduce that.
Put a load on it. It will even out and run like a charm. Old engines don't like to idle. Beautiful engine.
Man, for the clear-coat alone you deserve a thumbs up and my adulation. That is something I have thought was a far better thing than filling and painting beautiful old cast as many fellows do! Thanks for another pleasan, intelligent and entertaining video Sir!
That thing is awesome!
It probably uses more fuel keeping the glow plug hot, than to keep it running. You need to put a load on it.
As a kid I remember hearing them running at night in West Texas
These engines make me smile every time.
That is absolutely brilliant, I could listen to that all day long. Well done !!
Dude so cool, I was at a steam festival in Koblenz Germany, boats, tractors, def preserve WORKING history👍👍👍
These are pure gold. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us. And your valve seems to be working great.
I just had another thought - LP gas has 2.5 times the BTU per cubic foot compared to natural gas. If the engine is designed for well head gas the orifices around the intake valve seat are likely too large. No different than trying to run a natural gas furnace on LP without changing the orifice - way too rich.
I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps there may be better results by turning the regulator down from 13" to about 6".
@@ecaparts I think he said it was already 6" :)
yes its not just pressure its the volume flow , my garden tractor i converted to propane and it steps down main pressure to and a low pressure demand regulator and an orifice that has an adjustment same as a needle valve so basic idea it meters the amount of fuel via the screw adjustment opening and closing the gap for the propane to flow through and at low speed the demand regulator has an adjustment that governors the low speed flow rate. and the basic adjustment is adjusted at 1/4 turn per HP of the engine to allow so it doesnt flood out the engine mix
Propane is really picky about the air/fuel ratio. It's likely doing the double intake because there's to much propane in the cylinder vs the air.
yus. too rich. not only in the combustion chamber. looks to me like a too-rich flame coming out of the heater-plug chimney. if that burner is given more air, the plug will get hotter and firing will improve. ta daaaaaaaaaa
Some hot bulb engines do not require additional heat to the hot bulb once they have started and settled, the old German prewar tractors started with a blow lamp heating the bulb, then ran on the heat created by the engine itself running.
That sure brings back memories. 60 to 70 years ago uses to drive around the oil fields and could here the chug chug of the pump jack engines. At the time never gave it a thought. Great restoration.
My thoughts on the intake valve is, the vacuum required to open it occurs, the valve opens causing vacuum loss and closes, then as the piston continues to travel down, the vacuum increases again, enough for the valve to open a second time..... I have seen one other engine like yours running, it did the same thing.
Definitely agree with that comment !!
The dreaded double gulp lol.. the sniffles of most old engines. The good thing is its a runner. Sounds good Mike, you'll work the bugs out. They all are well past their intended life cycle.. but getting way more oil and love now than when they were new. Nice engine.. I hope to acquire either one of these or a Bovaird & Seyfang or Myrick. Always like the hot tube ignitions. Lot easier than replacing fouled spark plugs constantly haha.
I love the old hit and miss thank you for the smile it's been a long time
That engine was meant to be loaded. Maybe you could figure some kind of drag fan on the drive pulley, just to see what would happen.
yep, a hit and miss engine sounds quite 'normal' when its actually under load.
My grandparents had old Jack pumps on their property when I was a kid. I remember hearing those things in the summertime when we would play outside by the pond
Thanks for checking it out Marshall!
I just love the sound of those old hit 'n miss engines
Very cool. Thanks for showing it running. Sure is simple compared to today's engines.
Well what's with all these thumbs down?
If you thought this was a noisy coffee grinder, then you must be on the wrong channel.
Great video, love to hear these girls bark!
The double intake is because while the exhaust is been open and the engine is winding down the intake bowl is filling up with gas, the first intake draw is then extremely rich and will not fire, the next intake is right on the money and fires.
thats what i reckon s well
To run on propane you need to wrap a sponge or some cloth around the air intake mixer, the propane drops when cold.
I watched one of these power a pump jank in about 1975 near Beaumont tx. and it would really get to popping on the pump jack up stroke, it was plumed into the well head for fuel, fun to watch good vid, THANX
A coworker of mine has a half dozen of these type engines that he takes to the Indiana State Fair every summer. He always has them trailered up and brings them in for us to tinker with. I swear they sound on the verge of stalling out. But onwards they run. And each one runs on a different fuel. A couple will run on just about any petroleum product made. Fuel oil, diesel, kerosene, you name it.
I'll take a crack at it but someone else may have already said the same thing. The ball valve you're playing with allows full pressure in that pipe down stream to the engine until a couple of strokes clears it out enough that it leans and fires. I'd say you need to regulate the pressure down and open the ball valve 100% then adjust the pressure until it runs properly.
Yes, that is also my opinion.
And i think the second problem is the intake Valve not sealing properly,
If you watch the pressure gauge at 38:15 you see the needle on the first intake stroke just go down and back up again, that is OK but on the second intake stroke when it actually fires, it goes down and back up and then it jumps even higher and goes back down to normal pressure.
So it seems that some exhaust gas gets blown into the gas pipe which raises the pressure.
And If that does happen, it is also very likely that there is always some gas leaking in the intake housing, causing a very rich mixture on the first intake stroke.
He should lap the valve seat with a very fine lapping compound to create a perfect finish on the valve and its seat.
they built an engine 100 years ago and he has better emissions than my 2016 2.0 TDI
Make sure the intake valve doesn't leak any gas (on both sides) when it's closed with a bit higher gas pressure.
Now when you increase the gas pressure, the valve is letting gas through which will make it run super rich at a certain pressure. You need a stronger spring, a tight valve and seat which can handle a higher gas pressure, and also tune the length of the pipe after the manual control valve.
To my understanding... if the inlet valve does not seal perfectly towards the combustion chamber, the engine presses cylinder gas back into the fuel line and this results in a lean mixture in the next first (non-) firing cycle. A heavier spring or a slighly different valve angle could help
If you watch the pressure at 38:15 you see the needle jump up a little bit when firing , that does not happen on those intake strokes when it fails to fire.
So it seems that some exhaust gas is blown back in the gas pipe.
But it is also possible that the Gas pressure is too high and there is also some Gas leaking in the intake housing. That causes a too rich mixture on the first working stroke, but on the second working stroke is not enough time for the gas to leak, so the mixture is lean enough to ignite.
Both are caused by the valve not sealing properly, you may try to lap the valve with a real fine lapping compound or use some Metal polishing compound to lap the valve seat to get a perfectly smooth Finish.
Because the missing cycle is so long the intake bowl is filling with gas the whole time, first intake is far to rich, second one is right so it fires, then it takes forever to wind down again, filling with gas the whole time.
@@kingcosworth2643
Yes, that is also what i think.
That would not happen if the intake valve was sealing properly, maybe a slightly lower gas pressure would also help.
@@Henning_S. Lowering the gas pressure would help a lot, if he regulated it to atmospheric and fitted a venturi to the intake it would only draw the gas when the engine draws intake.
@@kingcosworth2643
It seems to me that the gas inlet is already a venturi.
Did you watch the video of making the new intake valve?
You can see how the gas inlet works...
When the intake valve opens, the air is passing the gas ports in the valve seat with high speed, that should work as a venturi sucking the gas in...
It should be easy to test if it works or not.
He can just keep lowering the pressure until the gas throttle valve can stay fully opened without the engine dying.
But maybe he needs some kind of gas reservoir between the pressure regulator and the gas throttle valve where the engine can suck from.
Just a T-fitting with a plastic bottle should be enough for testing.
At the time this engine was made, it was cutting edge technology. This machine could replace a team of men performing menial labor hand pumping for oil. It's fantastic to see it preserved and operational.
You are the guru on the old ones . This is just a thought ;but, If you put a longer runner on the intake ,it might stop the double tap ?
Let a little richer charge build up in the runner and then give it a good gulp when the time comes .
Just a thought .
Love the videos . Love the old motors.
Cheers !
I remember that sound from when I was a kid waiting for the bus. The was a man that came every morning around 6:30am and started the motor at the oil well across the road from our place.
I think shop Dog Sam would really appreciate this!
put a load on it, drag a 2x4 on the fly wheel
Thanks for the interesting video. I had an old friend, since passed on, who lived in Wichita Falls, Texas area as a child. He said that on quiet mornings he could hear these old hit and miss motors miles away. Laying in bed he would hear the thing fire and then a long pause, wondering if the motor would make another revolution; then it would fire again. He mentioned the gas from the well was run through a column of copper wire or copper wool to remove the hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell). In the bottom of the column a crude gasoline he called 'drip gas' would collect and when he was a teenager they would use it when they couldn't afford refined gasoline. Sulfur rich fuel will eat out the copper in bearings, so it had to be removed or bearings without any copper used.
It sounds like a Labrador that has been chasing a tennis ball in the hot sun and is in desperate need of a drink.
It sounds to me like it is running right. Be careful wrapping your thumb around the crank handle if it backfires you will think it broke your thumb. You should palm the handle started many a motor with that type of crank handle. Enjoyed the video
I think your pressure is still too high mike. when the intake opens it gets an inrush of lp. I ran my bovaird seyfang(40 hp) on next to no pressure. You have probably seen videos of the original gasometers that regulated well head pressure. They provide almost no pressure but a large volume that the engine can suck into itself instaed of being force fed. Just my 2 cents
Might need a longer intake pipe to get better air/fuel flow into the engine without losing it to the atmosphere
I was thinking the same thing.
Imagine how much fun lawyers would have if this beast was made today...
Ed .?
ya mean because of how unsafe it is?
@@leon.690sm9 I think too... no security at all if it shuts off and the intake valve leaks propane and accumulates in a partially enclosed area... same for the burner.
Not even talking about the startup and no guards for the belt and flywheel !
Like these?
www.arrowengine.biz/en/engine-lines/c-series
@@GogogoFolowMe
The engine's are still in use today on pump jacks allover,
EXCELLENT VIDEO......It’s Amazing what those mechanical engineers came up with in the day.
Yes, Mr Simon Johson is right. The engine speed up and the speed governor block the intake valve to avoid overspeeding. The video already show a test holding the governor lever. You need to add some load for continuos operation.
This is so cool to watch it makes me want a mini one
Your breathing was synchronized briefly😋
I love the old hit and miss engines , keep them alive !
New subscriber here and have been looking through back catatolgue. It is great to see an expert capable of presenting information so clearly. Education and entertainment at the same time!
Fascinating and informative, thank you!
Its almost mesmerizing to watch it run.And also the sound it makes as it fires. I would like to see you put it to work. Thanks.
Slick old engine with a unique sound for sure.
Hi Small Engine Mechanic,
Great video you have produced here, I really enjoyed it, great content. I particularly enjoyed the part at 2:00 explaining the engine. I felt it was really informative and you really brought the point across well. I am really interested in engineering and have had a career in engineering for over 28 years from everything from starting as a mechanics assistant to now a Project Manager. I enjoy sharing my skills and knowledge as well with others like yourself. I have provided training to others and had apprentices work with me to kick start there careers. Many thanks, Great job.
Seems to me it would be fun to find an old pumpjack somewhere, and make a running model ( less an actual well) and run that at a show, driven by this engine.
I have wanted one like that in my front yard since I was a kid. I have been fascinated by them for as long as I can remember.
Lots of old pumpjacks in Oklahoma
Kain Pa., they are laying all over the place!
Bolivar NY has some people running the pumpjacks from this era, something about the oil reservoirs refilling a bit
Where I live you can still find wells using these types of engines I love the sound of them
Just like the old John Deere tractors. When not under a load they fire two or 3 times, the governor is instantly overwhelmed and it has to coast back down and just when you think it's going to die, it fires again. Pop pop pop! thug a thuug a thuuug a thuuuug a thuuuuug as thuuuuuug a thuuuuuuuug a Pop Pop Pop!
I’ve fooled around with quite a few lp or natural gas fueled engines and they are touchy. You are on the right path with a accumulator tank, but also if you would put some type of air dampener on your intake where the two bolt ears are and reduce your pressure to about half what you are you would be golden more pressure just pushes fuel out the intake cutting oxygen if you restrict the pressure and air like a Venturi so to say your problem would be solved. We went through it on a 40hp Clark and a 35 hp reed. And that solved our issues. Happy tinkering and good luck it’s volume not pressure related. Or you could go with an on demand regulator setup for engine fuel supply depending on the parts you have on hand
Lovely condition on that engine 👌
Something magical about petroleum-powered machines powering petroleum production.
Mike what a GREAT sound that has!!
That’s super cool. Thanks for the video!
That's a lovely video bro great engine sound, you did mention it's a 4 stroke engine but if I listen closely it turns 7 times before a ignition stroke, I do accept any engine run on different fuel mixture, tends to show this effect, would be great if you throw some light 👌👌👍👍
Engine is working great right from the get go...
And now we know why it is called a hit and miss engine... It hits when it needs to and misses (or conserved fuel and just spins...) when it is going fast enough.
It is all in the governor letting the intake valve deliver fuel.
You were at the governed rpm and each time the governor let it fire, it put out plenty of power and it would overspeed. With the big flywheels and no load, it only needs to fire every dozen or so rotations in order to keep the same governed speed up. You could load it up to use up more fuel, but it seems to be running just fine at that governed speed. With a load, it'll fire more often, and with no load it will just keep chugging along, firing twice every dozen or so turns.
Really cool, old, beautiful machine. Thanks for sharing it.
Ounces per square inch makes me metric cry lmao
Awesome job, awesome machine!
How about 263651.09 g/m² ?😁😁
I visited some oil land in Oklahoma in probably the early 90's, and I heard this strange "popping" noise... I didn't understand what the heck would be making a noise like that, so I took a little hike to follow the sound, and came across something that looked a whole lot like this. It was actively working and driving an oil derrick (rather slowly), and it went something like... pop, pop, pop, pop, ..., ..., pop, pop, ..., pop, pop, pop, ..., pop, ..., pop, ..., pop, pop, ..., pop, pop, pop, ..., pop, pop, pop, pop, pop... In other words, firing on most of the strokes, but slowing down some here and there, rather randomly. It was a rather amazing thing for a teenager to come across, with no introduction. I basically figured out this "hit and miss" business just in listening to it as I hiked over, but I was amazed to see what was obviously some sort of "living antique" toiling away.
Thanks for checking it out!
@@SmallEngineMechanic I haven't dug into your other videos. Were you able to get this hooked up to some sort of load and have it run in a stable fashion?
A very satisfying demonstration! Thanks BOSS.
I agree with the comments regarding the double intake being an artifact of the fact that it is unloaded. What's going on is that you are constantly dumping fuel into the intake "manifold" ALL THE TIME. If it were hitting on every compression stroke then that would work just fine. But it's not. And when it isn't pulling "air fuel" mixture into the engine, the "intake manifold", as it were, is just saturating with fuel. The engine has to pull that charge in and TRY to burn it but it can't because it is too rich. But the next intake is not too rich and that second intake air-fuel mix WILL burn. One of those big propane regulators that they use on gasoline engine conversions is what you need to run this engine at an unloaded idle. Those only allow fuel into the air stream when the air is being drawn into the engine. But to make that work properly you will need a ventury to get the air moving fast enough to allow the Bernoulli effect to work with the 10 inch propane regulator. If it were only dumping fuel into the intake tube when the air was being drawn into the engine it would work fine.
An old timer showed me one of these engines- he said as soon as you put it under load it will start firing every time.
Great video! Very well done
Love it, engine made by a company, in my home town, Pittsburgh, PA!
Love the sound of those old engines.