47:15 “if you’re well known because you’re in service to something larger than yourself, like Jung was, I think you’re on steadier ground. If you’re chasing fame and attention for its own sake, it will devour you”
Actors and even more so, actresses, rightly or wrongly used to be considered of a lower caste. As many of us distance ourselves from religious communities of worship, we remain beings who worship and will find an outlet for this impulse. By shunting aside ancient wisdom, we tend to focus our religious energies on those who have shiny, less deep qualities. But all that glitters is not gold. In adversity we usually come back to what really matters. I hope our society wakes up sooner rather than later to what is truly at stake and stop all our in-fighting.
Thank you for making this video. Unwanted attention for one's accomplishments can feel like a trip through hell for someone who is naturally reclusive and introverted. When a computer game I created in 1989 as a fundraiser for AIDS charities resurfaced in 2017 and was revived and publicly recognized as the first LGBTQ+ computer game ever created, it began a series of requests for interviews, which still tends to surge in the month of June, Pride month. While I am grateful I get to do what I do as an artist and an advocate for fundamental human rights, it's still very difficult for me to deal with the public. Maybe if I were younger and hungrier for attention, this would be different. But I'm nearing 70 years old, and I just want to be left alone to carry out my creative endeavors. To quote Steven Pressfield, "The Artist's Journey is about the Art, not the Artist."
War heros having fame is not necessarily a bad thing. Power and fame go together. Illuminating and integrating that shadow to rise above death is more venerable than someone who sings to many but lacks virtuosity or the true creative fire. Most famous people are empty nonindividuated commercialized products we are primed to adore even though they are hollow by necessity of needing to be projected upon by the masses and thus have no real substance or virtue to their fame. It’s mostly mana exposing the shadow today. Never meet your hero’s as they say. We don’t hold virtuosity as close to fame as we like to think in a cult of personality.
It testifies to either his suppressed insecurities which he’ll never admit to having or his overinflated ego. Go figure… ever since the “give ‘em hell” I cannot respect him as a human being, let alone a learned person.
I can empathize with the dreamer. I was also an adjunct professor after I graduated and was unhappy with my career path. It took some time and doing but I switched my career to an Instructional Designer which I am now happy with. This was a career I had never heard of before and had learned that this has been a good career change for a lot of teachers who get burned out in the classroom. If you are still lost on deciding what is the best career change for you, Instructional Design is worth looking into. All the best on your new journey!
Another good one! I appreciate the dream you shared, because I have some version of that dream monthly. I guess I need to figure out what I was supposed to learn in high school, because I'm always back there, having to retake classes I aced the first time around, but for which I haven't studied in 20+ years. I'm always frustrated because it's going to retroactively mess up my perfect grade point average, so I'm always looking for the registrar to drop the class before I get an official grade, but I never end up completing that task. 😬
I am a great Beatles fan, so I would like to correct that John Lennon said that they were more famous than Jesus. And considering their dedication to hinduism, they were not great fans of Jesus. And as a matter of fact, they did something good with their fame in that they promoted asian religion, which was my personal entrance into the world of spirituality (though Maharishi was a misstep, and their LSD use was not particularly edifying). But I agree fully that when you are famous, and influence a huge crowd of people, you should do something good with it, though most celebreties (+addicted to drugs) will not be able to withstand the singing of the sirens. Judy Garland is a sad story, because what no many people will know is that she was a communist, and was virtually driven to suicide in the McCarthy era. It will be heartbreaking when you once were a revered star, to fall down into nothingness. It does remind me of the Wheel of Fortune card in the tarot. A great conversation again by the team that is not so very famous (yet, considering your exploding number of subscribers), but is divinely gifted in the realm of communication.
There is a distinct connection with other observers of fame such as ourselves, similarly to how when we travel somewhere new we would want their friends there to say "do you see this?" ... the appreciayion of fame is a group phenomenon.
We didn't do anything! You have to remember there are hundreds of millions of people in America and just because a few million people do something loudly and publicly doesn't mean a large majority agree! This is a major problem with politics being driven by perceived public opinion today when it's actually just a handful of people in support of an issue.
Very true. A simple and profound insight that escapes most people in this country. Mostly people who choose not to be aware. The disturbing behavior of the Trump Cult instantly came to mind.
I just saw the Netflix four-part documentary on David Beckam and Spice Girl, Posh Spice ...life ...it very much reminds me of this subject. I wonder what Lisa Debs and Joseph would think about this 4-part series? David had incredible Talent with good looks and became a Super Sports Star and Love and adoration so much aggression and hate all at the same time!
I am pretty darn old. I was born in 1945 before the end of WW2. So I am technically a member of what is referred to as the Greatest Generation. My parent’s generation who went through the Great Depression and WW2. I am truly though, of the Boomers. I grew up in NYC. I remember being at a rock concert at the Fillmore East. I think it may have been The Rolling Stones. I noticed the adoration of the crowd - everyone in the audience were basically, physically & emotionally in such a state of adoration and could have been under the control of the band that was playing had they wished to point them in any direction. I was in a place of observation. I thought how strange it was that the entire audience could possibly have been easily manipulated by these “rock stars”. That night I vowed never to be entranced to that point by performers who seemed to have these people in the palm of their hand. I thought “I wonder if the audience en masse might believe anything they were told by the music makers or follow them down any road they wanted to lead them. I’m not saying the band had anything like that in mind - I just wondered if music or anything else might have a dark & manipualtive side to be wary of. My musical tastes were actually in a different direction - more folky - as I used to attend the Newport Folk Festival. Later, jazz also became fascinating. I was very young then… possibly not even 21 yet.
Fame is a spectrum like the ocean. It's distinct from power, while they may relate with one another or become conflated at certain points, one can have great power and remain largely unknown, and another can have great fame yet little actualized influence despite the surface appearances. This beckons for a need to look at fame on a spectrum from 0 fame or social recognition and status or notoriety to 100% fame, 0 privacy, higest levels of scrutiny or admiration. This changes how we view fame, and I'm curious how that relates to the unconscious or ego syntonic and dystonic developments. Someone with fame as we see today might not be very "god-like" as we used to feel or perceive. We don't admire Taylor Swift as much as we used to. Or something about adulthood that removes the veil about fame and how it relates to power and the true reality about power is that fame is not necessary or required, nor is fame the source of love and fullness we expect to get from it, but the opposite. Although how can I say opposite if I've never known fame? I know it on the spectrum of social notoriety and status that it's got some eventual falling out and fails to meet certain deeper needs. But this concept of a spectrum really reels in home the idea in a more tangible light and allows us to realize its nature at different levels of presence in our lives based on factors of measure like privacy, number of people that know you or see you on a daily basis, the money you have(power conflation), influence you have(power conflation), or the amount of adoratiom and ridicule that results from the level of social knowingness of your ego's presence in society.
To note, Lisa said a few times in this episode that she isn't famous, but with 59k subscribers and I'm sure a lot more listens elsewhere, a high level of education, you might be a lot more famous than someone who has a lower socioeconomic status, or someone of s different demographic. Maybe people who are younger aren't as famous because they haven't been alive as long to garner social status and notoriety. So there is a valid age component, while status and fame might even be different right? What exactly is fame? It's distinct from power and status because it exists in conjunction with status and power but not always largely present even if status and power are. This for me is so crucial in the discussion that I was kind of hoping to hear the direction to take this in, but you both set the stage beautifully and allowed for me to think more about this topic, so I hope this helps that I can add my two cents about putting fame on a spectrum and distinct from status and power.
The older someone gets, the less famous they become but their power and status can still grow. CG Jung was psychology famous, Thelonius Monk is Jazz famous, but not everyone in the world knows Jung or Monk. Yet their name in history holds status even if the fame and power have diminished.
Another good example of fame that lacks maybe power but status is on the negative side is someome who's been meme'd as a joke from an embarrassing moment. We forever know this persons face but never as the person, just as the object for the sake of that emotion or vibe. They're famous, but none of us would recognize them in public because we remember them for the digital image that they once were, not who they are now, which likely looks much different than they were. Similar dissonances occur with young famous people who get old, but we follow those people so much we know what they look like even when they're shaved or bald or wearing a mask.
The Maenads might not have fully known what they were doing under the influence of Dionysus but if I recall The Bacchae correctly, he most certainly knew what he was inciting them to do. It speaks to the cost of suppressing certain elements of the soul in service of conventionality.
![[ TEASER ] เงาะป่า - วงL.กฮ. | TMG RECORD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/M4ObdFfcPww/mqdefault.jpg)
47:15 “if you’re well known because you’re in service to something larger than yourself, like Jung was, I think you’re on steadier ground. If you’re chasing fame and attention for its own sake, it will devour you”
Actors and even more so, actresses, rightly or wrongly used to be considered of a lower caste.
As many of us distance ourselves from religious communities of worship, we remain beings who worship and will find an outlet for this impulse. By shunting aside ancient wisdom, we tend to focus our religious energies on those who have shiny, less deep qualities. But all that glitters is not gold.
In adversity we usually come back to what really matters. I hope our society wakes up sooner rather than later to what is truly at stake and stop all our in-fighting.
Thank you for making this video. Unwanted attention for one's accomplishments can feel like a trip through hell for someone who is naturally reclusive and introverted. When a computer game I created in 1989 as a fundraiser for AIDS charities resurfaced in 2017 and was revived and publicly recognized as the first LGBTQ+ computer game ever created, it began a series of requests for interviews, which still tends to surge in the month of June, Pride month. While I am grateful I get to do what I do as an artist and an advocate for fundamental human rights, it's still very difficult for me to deal with the public. Maybe if I were younger and hungrier for attention, this would be different. But I'm nearing 70 years old, and I just want to be left alone to carry out my creative endeavors. To quote Steven Pressfield, "The Artist's Journey is about the Art, not the Artist."
War heros having fame is not necessarily a bad thing. Power and fame go together. Illuminating and integrating that shadow to rise above death is more venerable than someone who sings to many but lacks virtuosity or the true creative fire. Most famous people are empty nonindividuated commercialized products we are primed to adore even though they are hollow by necessity of needing to be projected upon by the masses and thus have no real substance or virtue to their fame. It’s mostly mana exposing the shadow today. Never meet your hero’s as they say. We don’t hold virtuosity as close to fame as we like to think in a cult of personality.
I wish Jordan Peterson had known when to stop. He believes in his guru status in a way that is disturbing.
So true
It testifies to either his suppressed insecurities which he’ll never admit to having or his overinflated ego. Go figure… ever since the “give ‘em hell” I cannot respect him as a human being, let alone a learned person.
Imo Dr Peterson is the love child of Ben Kenobi and Count Dooku.
It occurs to me how much inner work that type of life exacts from people.
I can empathize with the dreamer. I was also an adjunct professor after I graduated and was unhappy with my career path. It took some time and doing but I switched my career to an Instructional Designer which I am now happy with. This was a career I had never heard of before and had learned that this has been a good career change for a lot of teachers who get burned out in the classroom. If you are still lost on deciding what is the best career change for you, Instructional Design is worth looking into. All the best on your new journey!
Another good one! I appreciate the dream you shared, because I have some version of that dream monthly. I guess I need to figure out what I was supposed to learn in high school, because I'm always back there, having to retake classes I aced the first time around, but for which I haven't studied in 20+ years. I'm always frustrated because it's going to retroactively mess up my perfect grade point average, so I'm always looking for the registrar to drop the class before I get an official grade, but I never end up completing that task. 😬
This was an excellent and inspiring conversation! Thank you very much!
I am a great Beatles fan, so I would like to correct that John Lennon said that they were more famous than Jesus. And considering their dedication to hinduism, they were not great fans of Jesus. And as a matter of fact, they did something good with their fame in that they promoted asian religion, which was my personal entrance into the world of spirituality (though Maharishi was a misstep, and their LSD use was not particularly edifying). But I agree fully that when you are famous, and influence a huge crowd of people, you should do something good with it, though most celebreties (+addicted to drugs) will not be able to withstand the singing of the sirens.
Judy Garland is a sad story, because what no many people will know is that she was a communist, and was virtually driven to suicide in the McCarthy era. It will be heartbreaking when you once were a revered star, to fall down into nothingness. It does remind me of the Wheel of Fortune card in the tarot.
A great conversation again by the team that is not so very famous (yet, considering your exploding number of subscribers), but is divinely gifted in the realm of communication.
The Avocado guy is like Kafka's hunger artist in reverse...
There is a distinct connection with other observers of fame such as ourselves, similarly to how when we travel somewhere new we would want their friends there to say "do you see this?" ... the appreciayion of fame is a group phenomenon.
We didn't do anything!
You have to remember there are hundreds of millions of people in America and just because a few million people do something loudly and publicly doesn't mean a large majority agree!
This is a major problem with politics being driven by perceived public opinion today when it's actually just a handful of people in support of an issue.
Very true. A simple and profound insight that escapes most people in this country. Mostly people who choose not to be aware. The disturbing behavior of the Trump Cult instantly came to mind.
Missing Joseph :(
I just saw the Netflix four-part documentary on David Beckam and Spice Girl, Posh Spice ...life ...it very much reminds me of this subject. I wonder what Lisa Debs and Joseph would think about this 4-part series? David had incredible Talent with good looks and became a Super Sports Star and Love and adoration so much aggression and hate all at the same time!
I am pretty darn old. I was born in 1945 before the end of WW2. So I am technically a member of what is referred to as the Greatest Generation. My parent’s generation who went through the Great Depression and WW2. I am truly though, of the Boomers. I grew up in NYC. I remember being at a rock concert at the Fillmore East. I think it may have been The Rolling Stones. I noticed the adoration of the crowd - everyone in the audience were basically, physically & emotionally in such a state of adoration and could have been under the control of the band that was playing had they wished to point them in any direction. I was in a place of observation. I thought how strange it was that the entire audience could possibly have been easily manipulated by these “rock stars”. That night I vowed never to be entranced to that point by performers who seemed to have these people in the palm of their hand. I thought “I wonder if the audience en masse might believe anything they were told by the music makers or follow them down any road they wanted to lead them. I’m not saying the band had anything like that in mind - I just wondered if music or anything else might have a dark & manipualtive side to be wary of. My musical tastes were actually in a different direction - more folky - as I used to attend the Newport Folk Festival. Later, jazz also became fascinating. I was very young then… possibly not even 21 yet.
When you got to 'guru', Kopp's book ' 'if you meet the buddha... ', came to mind.
Great topic and discussion. Russell Brand has always been a dlist celeb though, not a good example.
The quote from the Beatles that met with widespread disapproval was “We are now more popular today than Jesus.”
Very interesting.
Fame is a spectrum like the ocean.
It's distinct from power, while they may relate with one another or become conflated at certain points, one can have great power and remain largely unknown, and another can have great fame yet little actualized influence despite the surface appearances.
This beckons for a need to look at fame on a spectrum from 0 fame or social recognition and status or notoriety to 100% fame, 0 privacy, higest levels of scrutiny or admiration.
This changes how we view fame, and I'm curious how that relates to the unconscious or ego syntonic and dystonic developments.
Someone with fame as we see today might not be very "god-like" as we used to feel or perceive. We don't admire Taylor Swift as much as we used to. Or something about adulthood that removes the veil about fame and how it relates to power and the true reality about power is that fame is not necessary or required, nor is fame the source of love and fullness we expect to get from it, but the opposite. Although how can I say opposite if I've never known fame? I know it on the spectrum of social notoriety and status that it's got some eventual falling out and fails to meet certain deeper needs. But this concept of a spectrum really reels in home the idea in a more tangible light and allows us to realize its nature at different levels of presence in our lives based on factors of measure like privacy, number of people that know you or see you on a daily basis, the money you have(power conflation), influence you have(power conflation), or the amount of adoratiom and ridicule that results from the level of social knowingness of your ego's presence in society.
To note, Lisa said a few times in this episode that she isn't famous, but with 59k subscribers and I'm sure a lot more listens elsewhere, a high level of education, you might be a lot more famous than someone who has a lower socioeconomic status, or someone of s different demographic. Maybe people who are younger aren't as famous because they haven't been alive as long to garner social status and notoriety.
So there is a valid age component, while status and fame might even be different right? What exactly is fame? It's distinct from power and status because it exists in conjunction with status and power but not always largely present even if status and power are.
This for me is so crucial in the discussion that I was kind of hoping to hear the direction to take this in, but you both set the stage beautifully and allowed for me to think more about this topic, so I hope this helps that I can add my two cents about putting fame on a spectrum and distinct from status and power.
The older someone gets, the less famous they become but their power and status can still grow.
CG Jung was psychology famous, Thelonius Monk is Jazz famous, but not everyone in the world knows Jung or Monk. Yet their name in history holds status even if the fame and power have diminished.
Another good example of fame that lacks maybe power but status is on the negative side is someome who's been meme'd as a joke from an embarrassing moment. We forever know this persons face but never as the person, just as the object for the sake of that emotion or vibe. They're famous, but none of us would recognize them in public because we remember them for the digital image that they once were, not who they are now, which likely looks much different than they were.
Similar dissonances occur with young famous people who get old, but we follow those people so much we know what they look like even when they're shaved or bald or wearing a mask.
The Maenads might not have fully known what they were doing under the influence of Dionysus but if I recall The Bacchae correctly, he most certainly knew what he was inciting them to do. It speaks to the cost of suppressing certain elements of the soul in service of conventionality.
Avoid celebrity.