Just wanted to add a clarification, the person from team Poland at WTC wasn't disqualified for cheating but given 0 points out of 20 for their drunken behaviour. The player was very apologetic and played with no issues on day 2 , and both team Poland and team USA hold no ill-will towards each other, as both were happy with how the incident was handled. Poland have not been DQ'd from future WTC events or from WTC 2024 as they finished 3rd overall.
really appreciated your opinions on losing with grace and having fun when losing. I will of course not listen, and I will complain and cry when I lose until my opponents get so annoyed they concede and I get to win every game.
I watched a lot over the LVO competition, mainly on twitch and I was in the chat. First I want to say that Chris is an incredible player and should be an inspiration to other players in the scene. He took Blades Of Khaine who are not considered a top team to the top table with relative ease. I really want to see a light-hearted streamed game with him and Sammy. Hell swap the teams for a fun match, give him Warpcoven and Sammy BoK just for a fun exhibition match. But I watched numerous matches over the schedule and I very much enjoyed them all. They seemed serious but friendly. Disputes were settled civilly. Questions from chat were asked re rules. And chat correcting players on rules was not limited to Chris only. Other times chat were correct and it was checked and expressed to the players by the commentators. All was fine. I watched match 7 and it was a difficult watch. It felt so pressured and not friendly. Chris came across sassy and dismissive. Chat commentated on a few rules which he responded to with dismissiveness. People are all learning and surely if they feel like something has been misplayed letting the commentators know (one of which is a TO) is surely acceptable. Even if it's just out of interest. He may have been correct in the rules but he was being an ass. Not just with chat but with the other player too. This then continued into match 9 where the "incident" happened. Which has been blown out of proportion but I think he just came across unlikable on steam, the halo and horns effect kicked in with people.... But like I said Chris is an incredible player in a highly stressful situation. I want to see him in a friendly casual streamed match in future!
I'm fairly new to Kill Team specifically but have played at competitive level in a lot of games and went back to check the clip that was doing the rounds and the question wasn't "Any Gotchas" he asked first if he could fall back, was told no and then explained his intent was to kill the model and then ask "Unless there is any trickery you can do" and was told "no trickery". This is not to me ambiguous at all as you mentioned Magic the Gathering as one group of players you talked to and there is a big difference between the equipment and ploys of Kill Team to a competitive card game. The issue here is with Open vs Closed information. In M:tG the information is closed, you can see how many lands or mana sources still are available but your opponent has to respond to your action within the defined stages of the rules and at a Competitive Rules Enforcement Level (REL) this is all handled by the rules, not "sportsmanship." In a game with Open information like Kill Team, you know what equipment they have and if its a once per battle effect or needs Command Points to be used or is a ploy once per Firefight Phase then it should be recorded in a way that lets both players know the state of the game otherwise one player or another can edgeshoot or "play dirty" to get an advantage in an activation. If said information would influence decision making and your opponent asks for that information its open info, you shouldn't be hiding it and its not like someone should have to ask the correct phrase or know the secret code words for you to say "yes I still have this available" that is the benefit of games with open info, you have all the details to influence your decision and its why you tell your opponent during setup what your operatives and equipment are.
Open information should mean that they are able to discern what you're able to do themselves, and not you openly telling them your strategy if they choose to do a decision or not. "I want to do this thing, can you stop it?" is absolutely absurd to ask in a competitive setting... "Can I see your ploys/datacards and can you tell me what you have for CP please?" is a much more reasonable ask... Games would drag on 20 hours, if we were to calculate every move/response someone might have to potential moves you might make.
Wil Wheaton once said on Tabletop (some 10-15 years ago, and I can't believe I'm paraphrasing Wil Wheaton) don't play to win, because when you don't win, you won't be having fun and why would you play a game where you aren't having fun? In my mind, if you aren't having fun while playing a game, then you aren't playing a game; and if you aren't playing a game then what ->are
Yeah, it's being deliberately disingenuous and at best bad manners. At worst it can be construed as ableist. As folks with ADHD, like myself, have poor short term memories and can't retain all the rules for two teams under hours of pressure. If I'm confused and suffering from brain fog about an interaction don't be a prick. I'm not walking around with a binder full of rules for each kill team because you're a miserable bastard to play against. 🫠
Oh totally but just saying why it's important to ask the right questions, but Chris should have corrected after it was clarrified, as we state in the video
I haven’t watched the game but from listening to Glass Half Dead it sounded like both players were discussing movement / fall back Aeldari shenanigans right before. So Warp Coven player charged in on the basis of no movement shenanigans. Warp Coven player also chose NOT to use his crit on his first melee strike which the just a scratch would not have worked on…. The Warp Coven player could gave one shot the aeldari operative if he just crit. Blade of Khaine player is shocked and says - “well I just a scratch it”.
Just to add to the demeanor of Kill Team, I had 9 out of 9 games at LVO be excellent games, and I've heard great things from most of the people that I've spoken to that participated as well, with very few one-offs where the opponents maybe just didn't mesh personalities very well. It happens, let's keep the positivity going and have a great year of Kill Team!
I'm glad you addressed this. I love Kill Team and I play casually fairly regularly. One of my friends and I saw this and we decided against signing up for the Kill Team event at Adepticon because it made if feel like it wasn't the type of scene we wanted to be a part of. It's good to hear that it's not the norm.
I think Andy of Glass Half Dead's take on this was the closest to the assessment of the incident - the Blades of Kaine player took a second and then everything was fine. It really didn't seem to me like he acted out of turn, and him being tense isn't an indictment nor indicative of "bad" behavior.
@@CanYouRollaCritoof no thanks lol I'll stay out of that one! 😅 Much love, and appreciate everyone taking so much time and effort to take careful attention to these sorts of things! Honestly what makes this such a great community.
I would agree that people should hide their pitchforks and torches because I think a witch hunt is not required here. But a slap on the wrist definitely is required. I'm not sure what comes with the "LVO yellow flag", but for me this is definitely the case. It's not the duty of Your opponent to constantly keep tabs what You can and cannot do, but if the player asks You directly for gotchas and You hide a "Just a scratch" equivalent, then sorry You are are not acting sincerely. We can argue about the semantics of what a gotcha is or isn't but in my opinion the intent was clear if You would listen to the Warpcoven player. I can understand the BoK players approach - after all everybody want's to win. Some form of secrecy can be a valid tactic on the competitive level. I've heard players discussing that for competitive play they deliberately play and speak so their opponent constantly feels "on the edge" to force them into making mistakes... But FFS this is a hobby when we play plastic toy soldiers on a board! Do we HAVE to use each and every opportunity to win? Slap on the wrist and go forward. Rule #1 don't be a d*** to others.
Even if the rules comments by people in the stream chat were wrong, I don’t understand why the hosts were passing those comments on to the players. That seems like a failure of judgement on the hosts part.
Okay, so I have some somewhat harsh feedback that I really hope you don't take too badly, but considering this kind of video, you guys buried the lede excessively here and it actually worked against the point that you worked hard to make. I understand that you really need to start out by trying to make sure viewers are not immediately primed to contribute to a witchhunt mentality, but it was 15 minutes before you actually addressed what happened beyond "bad sportsmanship" and honestly by the time we got to it, I was expecting models being thrown across the table or flushed dice 2.0 here. I want to say that you guys do need to get ahead of the immediate pitchfork reaction as it definitely feels like there's a lot contributing to why this player was getting the reaction that he did for the answer he gave (even in part just spillover anger from some people at the state of the game, either the current meta and ruleset or how Blades of Khaine represent the amount of rules a single team requires you to keep track of), and I also understand that both of you are extremely familiar with the situation and there's an assumed knowledge of it, but there was a lot of circling back to other parties and the values of losing and as someone that regularly follows the game, I still wasn't aware this happened and was frustrated and jumping to my own conclusions listening. And without knowledge of what happened, hearing about people's moral character secondhand feels like you're defending them because you know them, even with you directly stating multiple times that you're trying to avoid that implication. Hearing about Dakota, Squad Games, and BATs and just knowing "they're involved" without knowing the situation or how they're involved because you wanted to drop all of the details at once doesn't really work when that information is being left to the imagination. It's actually somewhat infuriating because it feels like you're withholding the information and going "before we tell you anything, you need to know how good these people are and what a shame it is that this is happening." Which again, I believe you on this and agree. It's just that sharing personal stories before addressing what happened while continually discussing it vaguely just builds up the incident in question. Anyways, beyond that, this is a hard situation as a lot of rules in Kill Team are like this and "gotchas" is incredibly broad, but a similarly vague question like "do you have any abilities that interact with melee?" and being told no would absolutely be withholding information that's open knowledge, even though it came from an equipment (or say if someone had asked a Kommando player if their model had any abilities and they use Just a Scratch and claimed that it came from ploys not the model). It's such a fuzzy area with the wording, because I also wouldn't say a player should be forced to go through every faction rule, ploy, and model rule if an opponent asked "what can that do?", especially multiple times over a match. And there's also a matter of expectations around the game itself and its setting. In a casual game, being blindsided can actually feel somewhat novel if not actually fun. In a friendly match, I've had moments I think of as my opponent activating a trap card that I walked into, but this being a competitive scene it can feel like you were withheld information that you should've been granted and that the stakes matter more here (even though it really is a game played with toys). This is also where you come back to the multiple comments of "this match feels hard to watch" and "this doesn't seem friendly" make the moment stand out even more to most people. I agree with you guys that this doesn't feel like cheating, and that the players should focus on improving. Beyond just the stuff you talked about with how to handle losses, I'd also say that if you find yourself in situations where your opponent feels like there's a lot of gotchas to teams you play, you should be looking at bringing game aids or other reminders to help make matches more friendly. In addition, you do absolutely need to know how to ask the right questions and what questions are bad ones (I can't help but feel that while I'm iffy on what the BoK answered, asking about "gotchas" when you're playing into a team that NEEDS tricks to win right before making a decision feels also close to bad sportsmanship).
Ah apologies, we were trying to address the biggest issues which people had as that was the main complaint online Asking the right questions is complex, and something I'll cover in another video, but agree Chris still should have clarified once it was made clear what Sammy meant (which they did off stream after the game but should have been right after the moment imo).
To clarify here as well just for your edification he asked the BoK player if he could fall back, was told no and said "I'm gonna kill you, unless there is any trickery I need to remember" thats not a vague question. The equipment, as I am sure you are aware, is open information and can be used once per game so that information should be clear to both players at all times.
We chose to reply the way we did for a reason. Focusing too much on the specific words and exact instances doesn’t feel like it resolved anything. So many people wanted to fixated on that one specific interaction and prove either 1) he was like magnus and did nothing wrong or 2) he’s a dirty cheater. We chose to focus on how to move forward, how the community should gear their expectations and how the players should resolve things. If you felt you were misled or had things hidden from our discussion I apologize and if you could find any positive take aways for your own perspectives then that’s awesome. If I specifically said or did anything you felt was wrong let me know and I’ll take it to heart.
I'd disagree the question was vague. The Warp Coven player wasn't asking for every available gimmick or option. He was obviously asking a question about a very specific phase of the game. If we try and play the game by intent we should also be able to have a reasonable interpretation of our opponents intent with a question too.
From playing a number of competitive tabletop games, the most toxicity usually doesn't happen at the X-0 or 0-X tables but rather the middle. Cheaters and angle shooters have a hard time getting things by top table players who have everything memorized and aren't afraid to call judges in questionable moments / for tight measurements. And that can be a depressive effect on players trying to break into top table level play, when you get weird social interactions from people trying to win outside of the game it can make you question whether its worth sticking with the game/community. GW also has a frustrating tendency to bake into their games a lot of weirdly loose / gray areas that are fertile ground for bad behavior - TLOS being a prime example of an easy place for someone to be permissive with seeing their opponents pieces and restrictive of their opponent seeing their own models.
I also disagree with the 'too vague' discourse in this instance - the question is clearly about the existence of rules that could be used within the scope of the fight sequence to alter the outcome. Whether the BoK player did it maliciously or not that response muddied the game state unnecessarily. Talking to MtG players is referenced, but KT is not a private information game in the same way.
Yeah, I've actually generally seen the worse stuff at mid tables, which is so weird Yeah GW's poor wordings make it worse, especially with this new edition It was still too vague, me and Jimmy would have likely still clarified but the reason my MTG friends sided with BoK is because it was stated information at the start of the game. Not saying they're right, just what their stance was
@@CanYouRollaCritWhat do you think are the expectations of top players re rule memorization? As a casual I rely on my opponent to be open and honest about their rules, I don't haven't the time or inclination to memorize every faction. Is it reasonable to expect top tables to remember every single thing they're told at the begining of the game? Genuine question
I feel that being clumsy. My hands tend to shake, especially in public places and that just ends with terrain being nudged, miniatures thrown over and if my opponent feels like it's on purpose I'm pretty much screwed. I've started just throwing the game in that case because I don't want to deal with it.
I've had many games with people who had shaky hands and they would apologize profusely every turn ahead of time unnecessarily. Don't throw, you're good, let your opponent know ahead of time, most people are super understanding when it comes to things like this because it's not something that's always within your control. We're all built differently coming together to play with our war dollies. Have grace and let people have grace as well. If you run up against someone who isn't able to forgive, you can always talk it out with your opponent ahead of time before you move a model, and use a proxy model with the same base or call a TO over to mediate, that's what they're there to do. Enjoy the game and don't be hard on yourself!
I think in Kill Team, especially in the tournament scene, playing by intent and communicating with your opponent as well as assuming your opponent has good intentions, alleviates the issue of slightly nudged models. Tables get bumped into, things move around, sometimes you literally have to pick up models to open hatchways, precise placement can be very very difficult but making things clear together with your opponent can be easy. “I want to be within an 1” of this cover, I want to be outside of a 9” charge range of this operative, ect.” Given those things are possible, this just makes things easier and better understood.
@@luciferous138 Oh yeah most people are super great. It's just that if you do deal with someone who feels cheated I'd rather just not. I don't care enough about a single game or getting my points to have that sort of confrontation.
If there’s a time for getting sweaty surely it’s at the top table of killteam worlds! I sometimes go on tilt in casual games. It’s why we play these games. We get invested. In the end it doesn’t matter what the audience thinks. It matters how the players felt at the time and after. Give them a break. Tired game 9 in the finals. Internet hate is worse than a game argument.
Oh totally, makes it worse that there are a lot of people upset at it for the sake of drama, having not actually been interacting or playing the game till the drama happened
Always enjoy your videos and they've inspired me to try and play in tournaments. Can you suggest how to find suitable ones for beginners? I live in the south east of the UK and the only tournaments I find when I search seem intimidatingly big.
I'm not sure how the environment is comparatively between our scenes, but I'd recommend jumping in and having fun. Take a friend with you if you can, talk about the nonsense and the cool moments after, and go to have fun. You're going to learn a lot more from a tournament than you are from a game every few weeks. Most important thing is sportsmanship and having fun.
People have to accept that we're all human and make mistakes. If we had to shun everyone who had a game with questionable sportsmanship than there wouldn't be many people left to play with anymore.
So, I have taken the time to rewatch the game up to the point where the interaction takes place. For context - I have however not been able to find the time to watch other games yet. I got side-tracked by a rules question on an ITD game (door opening moving a model out of engagement range) and then never got back to watching. I think there are two levels at which this should be looked at. There is the specific interaction in that one fight. To me it is very clear, that BoK should have allowed WC to go back when he said "this is what I was talking about". I honestly do not know why WC did not ask for this. To me it is the most normal thing in the world and not offering is poor sportsmanship. But is he totally in the wrong? WC literally said "I hit you with a normal" so BoK would have been perfectly within his rights to just say "no takebacks". In the immortal words of Fezzik -"not very sportsmanlike" but with these stakes I could see it even if I would not recommend it. Secondly - there are a lot of comments about attitude and how people present as condenscending etc. I feel people need to cut both people involved some slack. Playing in the last day of a multi-day tournament is exhausting, no matter what table you are at. I have been there, and let me tell you, it is harder than you think to keep your composure when something like the mulit-kill sorcerer move happens to you. People are passionate about this game and I think it is ok to be passionate. Why should BoK just accept his guys being flamered away in a position he was sure he was safe in? Playing against Warp Coven even in a normal game is such mind-wracking experience. I have had one game vs them at WTC and 4 at WCW and I still find it hard to to try and remember what the models can do (as there are not consistent models for each sorcerer and they have top up abilities that can change plus additional top ups one can opt in), even without WYSIWYG issues. I can totally see why BoK would miss the fact that the move was possible. But was it legal at all? We will never know as rather than using a proxy, the model got moved before a judge was called on what was probably a game deciding play. Am I saying that was cheating and people should pile onto WC? Hell no. I see zero intention to cheat - he was just happy that he had been gifted an incredible break in a final and went ahead with the move too fast after a long time of tough matches. But in light of that is it ok that BoK is kicking himself that he A. let the model be moved and B. missed that potential interaction? Yes! I honestly feel BoK did really well to keep calm and carry on what was pretty much a game decider. On the subject of growth. I wanted to pick up the example Jimmy gave of feeling his every move is being questioned in a game and how that made him feel. I have, to my shame, been that guy in the final game of a GT (not with Jimmy!). I was simply exhausted, and my opponent was in a rush as they had a train to catch and just playing way faster than I could or wanted to follow. I know the other player and can say 100% he was not trying to do anything unfair. I felt I just wanted to make sure I understood what happened but that was not how my opponet felt. So he blew up and I was shocked and had a long think after the game how we got there. So let's be honest: being a top table game adds to the pressure of these situations and every word one says has more attached to it. I am only glad that game was not streamed and I have avoided being piled on for not being a good watch or having a the wrong attitude nor my opponent for losing his cool. I am also glad that I was able to learn from the experience to try and find a better way to communicate in this kind of situation and to see the other side. So I heartily welcome the comment about growth. We can all grow and get better and that is certainly where I want to get to in my play. So please - even top table players are human beings and the better the people one plays with, the more the brain hurts after 8 or 9 games. Be kind to each other. Yes, by all means criticise and make sure the game is being played the right way - but be constructive rather than personal and give people a second chance.
Hey, this is a great point about my commentary of my game. I spoke with the player which focused me to really think and put words to a vague subject like feelings within interactions. I never felt there was any maliciousness and I want to find a format to share the thoughts from the conversation I had. Keep an eye on tabletop mayhem cause that may be the platform I go into further detail. Thanks for your thoughts, I’m still trying to do better at understanding and growing in all this too
Ok, to any experienced players in here... What does the question, "Do you have any gotchas" mean to you? And have you used this phrase or have been asked this ever in the time you've been playing games? Next. Just because someone you feel as wronged you (slightly or greatly) does not mean you should give up basic sportsmanship in return. Especially in a professional setting. Those are my 2 cents.
There has been multiple people saying that had bad experiences with some players mentioned but they don’t want to be very public about it and just have more negative issues. When people have an aggressive player it’s common for them to just never go to a tournament again. This is made worse when there is physical power imbalance. I get not wanting to ban people but by doing so you lose other people who don’t want to deal with hoping an event organizer handles the situation the next time. The tournament becomes only the people who can tolerate aggressive sweaty players. GW can’t make this a tight game rules wise so it is inherently gray. There are too many variables. If you give even a little on being a jerk about abusing those gray areas, the player base will be severely limited. I don’t want the hobby to be even more of a mono culture of literally and figuratively, aggressive, sweaty guys.
I still don't think it's that extreme. While it is a shame to hear that people have had bad experiences, they really need to let the TOs so something can be done as you can't do anything if nothing is reported. The TO network is strong and they work together to police and monitor bad behaviour. It's the same with cheating, if you don't inform TOs about it mid game or right after, nothing can really be done about it unless it was caught on stream
@@CanYouRollaCrit the other side is people won’t report if they don’t trust TO to do something, especially if they then have to play that person again. The person being friends with the TO is a very risky to say anything. If you have been playing KT for years and you still are a crappy opponent, it’s very reasonable to think that their friends don’t see a problem with it. The drunk player situation gets more serious because they should have been kicked out of the event immediately if they were so drunk. It’s a physical safety risk.
Nah we're not like 40k. The TOs here are very independent and won't use friendship as a reason not to interveen with bad sportsmanship Yeah the drunkness is never appropriate at events
If you listen closely, when Chris said no, he also said something crits (it wasnt picked up well), it could have been that he answered when he have no trick regarding crits. Also, Sammy declare he strikes with Normal first, and only asks about tricks when Chris asks if he heard Sammy right
It’s a bit unfair to presume that someone who finds BATS (and the like) antics over the top ALSO thinks that they are bad people. I find them over the top and ridiculous, but I would still be happy to play them. I can see how they could come across as deliberately trying to intimidate, although I personally do not believe that to be the case. Quiet introverted people (a lot of gamers) don’t always react positively to the pre-game roar.
One thing we have to remember (only 30min in the episode but im about to go go work) is this is a streamed game. There are 80+ other games being played that dont have 100+ "T.Os" watching the game and telling the players they are playing wrong. Steaming is for entertainment purposes not so people can tell the commentators that they need to tell the players they are playing the rule wrong. I like commenting and interacting in these streams but generally as a way to keep up conversation with the chat and commentators for entertainment purposes
Yeah pretty much, considering we had someone else trying to do a reddit witch hunt on a certain player because they thought they were cheating (they weren't), it really questions whether it's worth streaming games at all
I think it's rubbish to ask a player "Do you have any gatchas"... Ask to look at their cards, ask to review their list...etc, but it's not the opponents responsibility to tell them what they can and cannot do in every scenario. That seems ridiculous... It's one thing to be purposefully misleading or initiate deceit.
Fair but it's actually a common thing we do at events now before starting the game. Tell each other any "gotcha" interactions our teams have so they're not a surprise mid-game
@@CanYouRollaCrit - That's a much different scenario than provided in the video, yea? Going over stuff in the beginning, compared to asking in the midst of the battle... The first example seems reasonable, asking right before a "gotcha" can be had, seems like the opponent playing the game for you. "Now now, if you do that I can do this and beat you." that feels silly.
@brofessorx5722 yeah that's the issue. Considering Kill Team is an open information game (sans Tac Ops that aren't revealed yet and Primary Op), it's difficult to justify not telling the opponent when asked (you should say imo)
@ - Fair enough... It just seems to go completely against the spirit of tournament competition... Asking to see their datacards, or to review their ploys middle of the match seems reasonable. Asking them to specifically announce what they can do as a "gotcha" right before you MIGHT make a call seems ridiculous. .. Idk, I'm all for friendly competition, but one seems completely reasonable and the other seems like you want them to protect you from making a misplay.
I’d argue that losing because you have forgotten rules is a part of skill. Game knowledge is important. Obv in friendly games it’s not a big deal to walk stuff back, but tournaments are a test of knowledge and applying it.
In my opinion (which doesn’t matter) is that Bachi (SP) did not do anything wrong with the question. The faction he is playing has several special rules. These rules often break the standard rules of the game. I would consider those as “shenanigans”. A piece of equipment is not shenanigans. Game 8 was way worse and made me question signing up for an event at Adepticon.
Yeah it was questionable as the equipment is announced at the start of the game As for game that is 100% not the norm and almost never happens. Hopefully you still go adepticon as it's a great event for KT and everything else (:
@ it seemed like the players were getting frustrated. One was questioning almost every move. Even after the models had been moved. I was just trying to imagine how I would have reacted to it. Made me feel like he was trying to throw the other player off by interrupting his activations. Specifically the end of turn 2 and the first activations of turn 3.
Im a perfect example of why ITC doesnt mean anything. I never won a tournament, hell i think i had like a 4-15 overall record and just because i played 5 or 6 tournaments that was enough to get me to just inside top 250 USA
Sheesh half the time I'm happy if I can remember my rules even if I could use them. If someone asked me in general if I got any tricks the answer is "probably? Like what?"
Chris owes nothing to these people. He shouldn't "soul search," and he shouldn't appease the angry mob trying to torch him alive. People are bad heroes. I hope no one ever looks up to me on how to act in real life. That's their own journey. I'll have bad days and good days, I'm not a good "ambassador." Humans are a troubled bunch, and anyone demanding perfection is just setting themselves up for failure. Just have grace, give people the benefit of the doubt, steel man their arguments, etc. ie; don't be a Redditor.
No one needs to do anything BUT if you care what people think about you then it’s only reasonable to put effort into understanding how you’re perceived.
@@JimmyK53 Stop caring what people think. Especially those who argue in bad faith, and encourage mobs of people to attack you. They aren't worth your time or energy. Most of them relish in the power of being able to control your behavior through fear and mob tactics. "Well, enough people said I needed to do this, so I did it." Is quite possibly the weakest (and dumbest) thing you could do. Stay true to yourself, trust the people who love you, and let strangers go find someone else to watch.
@ being unconcerned with how your actions and words impact others is narcissism. I’ll stick with my philosophy. Be true to yourself but be aware of how you come across. Simple.
@@JimmyK53 I'm not sure why, but my response vanished. Jimmy - being concerned with people in your immediate circle is fine. Family, peers, friends, etc. That's normal and expected. Being concerned with the online masses, in which you'll never meet, and aren't even playing against, is an entirely different story. You will not please these people en masse, so stop caring what they think, and find people who give you the benefit of the doubt and steel man your arguments. Again, the people who started this witch hunt: 1.) Weren't even at the con 2.) Weren't the ones playing the game 3.) Don't even know Chris He has no obligation to make them feel better about their actions, or his actions. He will never meet 99% of those people, and most of what hate-mobs want is power, not apologies. GG.
This is kind of dumb. If you are playing competitively, you can’t expect your opponent to tell you all their abilities. We are also forgetting the crucial game winning action where the Warp Fire wizard teleported over the razor wire, zorched 3 warriors and then just dipped back like no big deal. It was a great play by the player, but Chris was completely caught off guard because of his forgetting how the rule worked… If you don’t want to lose, don’t play. I think Chris lost very well. It maybe because most of my competitive experience comes from physical competitions, but you can 100% be “not OK” with losing. It is used to learn and make you better and drive you to compete again. It is different than being a “bad loser.”
Kinda, there's very little hidden information in the game so you need to be open with your abilities and rules. But that's why it's also important to ask the right questions Yeah being not okay with losing is fine too
@ for sure, and to clarify, I wasn’t calling your video dumb, been watching since the UWs days, I was calling the situation and reaction dumb. I get it that this game and table top games in general exist of varying levels of competitiveness, but I also have experienced that at large events, people don’t have the maturity or experience to deal with super competitive play. I watched the match live stream and remember thinking during that particular situation, that Sammy simply suffered from the same lack of knowledge or familiarity with the Blades rules as Chris did during the Warp Fire teleport move. Did Sammy feel the need to tell Chris about his Fly rule when Chris set up his razor wire? Knowing full well it would have no effect on the Scorceror with the Torrent weapon? I don’t think so. Nothing is stopping players from having the rules accessible to them, and if they forget the rules mid-game, that is all part of the competitive environment. You should have to play your best to win, not rely on your opponent to tell you if your plays have negative consequences. I think the backlash from this event says more about the community than it does the two players. If your main focus of the game is to “have fun,” that can be done at your local shop or even with AI rules. Tournaments are an opportunity to test your skills and knowledge against other players and see how you rank up in success. Winning is how that is determined. Your number at the ladder at the end of the event doesn’t rank you as a person, it isn’t personal. It gages your success at the event. The community is strong when players get together, grind each other into the dirt for 3 days at the highest level of competitive play and then go have a beer after. That is the hallmark of a mature, competitive community.
Im never one to mind losing and agree with jimmy it can make you friends. Buuuut mr rees owes me a game where it isnt a sea of 1s to see if i can crush them welsh boys lololol
27:14 It shouldn’t be a matter of belief, but of fact. You 100% can and are capable of winning any game you enter into, it only boils down to your will to do so
Or intellect. Or skill. Pattern recognition, temerity. Killteam as a game can take every competitive edge, but it can also be a friendly match of capped objectives and launching weapon rules at each other. The latter is mostly my favorite type of play. Also note, if you get a win you don't believe in, it can almost feel like it was undeserved.
Totally. I know several people who aren’t sure if they are capable of winning and have a lot of doubts, or maybe still have more to learn before they are good enough. Be good enough, believe you are good enough and don’t feel the need to prove it to others
Just wanted to add a clarification, the person from team Poland at WTC wasn't disqualified for cheating but given 0 points out of 20 for their drunken behaviour. The player was very apologetic and played with no issues on day 2 , and both team Poland and team USA hold no ill-will towards each other, as both were happy with how the incident was handled. Poland have not been DQ'd from future WTC events or from WTC 2024 as they finished 3rd overall.
really appreciated your opinions on losing with grace and having fun when losing. I will of course not listen, and I will complain and cry when I lose until my opponents get so annoyed they concede and I get to win every game.
This is the correct take
I watched a lot over the LVO competition, mainly on twitch and I was in the chat.
First I want to say that Chris is an incredible player and should be an inspiration to other players in the scene. He took Blades Of Khaine who are not considered a top team to the top table with relative ease. I really want to see a light-hearted streamed game with him and Sammy. Hell swap the teams for a fun match, give him Warpcoven and Sammy BoK just for a fun exhibition match.
But I watched numerous matches over the schedule and I very much enjoyed them all. They seemed serious but friendly. Disputes were settled civilly. Questions from chat were asked re rules. And chat correcting players on rules was not limited to Chris only. Other times chat were correct and it was checked and expressed to the players by the commentators. All was fine.
I watched match 7 and it was a difficult watch. It felt so pressured and not friendly. Chris came across sassy and dismissive. Chat commentated on a few rules which he responded to with dismissiveness. People are all learning and surely if they feel like something has been misplayed letting the commentators know (one of which is a TO) is surely acceptable. Even if it's just out of interest.
He may have been correct in the rules but he was being an ass. Not just with chat but with the other player too. This then continued into match 9 where the "incident" happened. Which has been blown out of proportion but I think he just came across unlikable on steam, the halo and horns effect kicked in with people....
But like I said Chris is an incredible player in a highly stressful situation. I want to see him in a friendly casual streamed match in future!
I'm fairly new to Kill Team specifically but have played at competitive level in a lot of games and went back to check the clip that was doing the rounds and the question wasn't "Any Gotchas" he asked first if he could fall back, was told no and then explained his intent was to kill the model and then ask "Unless there is any trickery you can do" and was told "no trickery". This is not to me ambiguous at all as you mentioned Magic the Gathering as one group of players you talked to and there is a big difference between the equipment and ploys of Kill Team to a competitive card game.
The issue here is with Open vs Closed information. In M:tG the information is closed, you can see how many lands or mana sources still are available but your opponent has to respond to your action within the defined stages of the rules and at a Competitive Rules Enforcement Level (REL) this is all handled by the rules, not "sportsmanship." In a game with Open information like Kill Team, you know what equipment they have and if its a once per battle effect or needs Command Points to be used or is a ploy once per Firefight Phase then it should be recorded in a way that lets both players know the state of the game otherwise one player or another can edgeshoot or "play dirty" to get an advantage in an activation.
If said information would influence decision making and your opponent asks for that information its open info, you shouldn't be hiding it and its not like someone should have to ask the correct phrase or know the secret code words for you to say "yes I still have this available" that is the benefit of games with open info, you have all the details to influence your decision and its why you tell your opponent during setup what your operatives and equipment are.
Open information should mean that they are able to discern what you're able to do themselves, and not you openly telling them your strategy if they choose to do a decision or not.
"I want to do this thing, can you stop it?" is absolutely absurd to ask in a competitive setting... "Can I see your ploys/datacards and can you tell me what you have for CP please?" is a much more reasonable ask...
Games would drag on 20 hours, if we were to calculate every move/response someone might have to potential moves you might make.
Wil Wheaton once said on Tabletop (some 10-15 years ago, and I can't believe I'm paraphrasing Wil Wheaton) don't play to win, because when you don't win, you won't be having fun and why would you play a game where you aren't having fun? In my mind, if you aren't having fun while playing a game, then you aren't playing a game; and if you aren't playing a game then what ->are
Yeah pretty much, plus when you're playing for fun, you will have so much more fun!
That’s a throwback. I used to love Tabletop. What happened with Will Wheaton?
He made the first avengers movie @suspecthalo
@@Mandrewlochner I don’t know the significance of that. Was that controversial?
The counter argument is 'winning is fun' but I agree with you 😂
"You didn't ask the right question" doesn't seem like a satisfactory response to "I feel like you just lied to me" imo
Yeah, it's being deliberately disingenuous and at best bad manners. At worst it can be construed as ableist. As folks with ADHD, like myself, have poor short term memories and can't retain all the rules for two teams under hours of pressure. If I'm confused and suffering from brain fog about an interaction don't be a prick. I'm not walking around with a binder full of rules for each kill team because you're a miserable bastard to play against. 🫠
Oh totally but just saying why it's important to ask the right questions, but Chris should have corrected after it was clarrified, as we state in the video
I haven’t watched the game but from listening to Glass Half Dead it sounded like both players were discussing movement / fall back Aeldari shenanigans right before. So Warp Coven player charged in on the basis of no movement shenanigans. Warp Coven player also chose NOT to use his crit on his first melee strike which the just a scratch would not have worked on…. The Warp Coven player could gave one shot the aeldari operative if he just crit. Blade of Khaine player is shocked and says - “well I just a scratch it”.
Just to add to the demeanor of Kill Team, I had 9 out of 9 games at LVO be excellent games, and I've heard great things from most of the people that I've spoken to that participated as well, with very few one-offs where the opponents maybe just didn't mesh personalities very well. It happens, let's keep the positivity going and have a great year of Kill Team!
Yeah exactly, it's always just a rare spot when the vast majority of games are great
I dig your guys' energy and eventually being part of your community gives me something to work towards. Thanks gang. :)
Ah that's awesome, great to have you as a part of us (:
I'm glad you addressed this. I love Kill Team and I play casually fairly regularly. One of my friends and I saw this and we decided against signing up for the Kill Team event at Adepticon because it made if feel like it wasn't the type of scene we wanted to be a part of. It's good to hear that it's not the norm.
Yeah it's very rare, you two should still sign up for Adepticon as you'll have a ton of fun!
I think Andy of Glass Half Dead's take on this was the closest to the assessment of the incident - the Blades of Kaine player took a second and then everything was fine. It really didn't seem to me like he acted out of turn, and him being tense isn't an indictment nor indicative of "bad" behavior.
Tell that to reddit lol
@@CanYouRollaCritoof no thanks lol I'll stay out of that one! 😅 Much love, and appreciate everyone taking so much time and effort to take careful attention to these sorts of things! Honestly what makes this such a great community.
I would agree that people should hide their pitchforks and torches because I think a witch hunt is not required here. But a slap on the wrist definitely is required. I'm not sure what comes with the "LVO yellow flag", but for me this is definitely the case. It's not the duty of Your opponent to constantly keep tabs what You can and cannot do, but if the player asks You directly for gotchas and You hide a "Just a scratch" equivalent, then sorry You are are not acting sincerely. We can argue about the semantics of what a gotcha is or isn't but in my opinion the intent was clear if You would listen to the Warpcoven player.
I can understand the BoK players approach - after all everybody want's to win. Some form of secrecy can be a valid tactic on the competitive level. I've heard players discussing that for competitive play they deliberately play and speak so their opponent constantly feels "on the edge" to force them into making mistakes... But FFS this is a hobby when we play plastic toy soldiers on a board! Do we HAVE to use each and every opportunity to win?
Slap on the wrist and go forward. Rule #1 don't be a d*** to others.
Total agree. A punishment has been given out by the TO to the BoK player
@@CanYouRollaCrit Then let's move on with our lives and play more with plastic toy soldiers :)
Great discussion guys!
Thanks (:
Even if the rules comments by people in the stream chat were wrong, I don’t understand why the hosts were passing those comments on to the players. That seems like a failure of judgement on the hosts part.
Yeah that wasn't great but it won't happen in the future
Okay, so I have some somewhat harsh feedback that I really hope you don't take too badly, but considering this kind of video, you guys buried the lede excessively here and it actually worked against the point that you worked hard to make.
I understand that you really need to start out by trying to make sure viewers are not immediately primed to contribute to a witchhunt mentality, but it was 15 minutes before you actually addressed what happened beyond "bad sportsmanship" and honestly by the time we got to it, I was expecting models being thrown across the table or flushed dice 2.0 here.
I want to say that you guys do need to get ahead of the immediate pitchfork reaction as it definitely feels like there's a lot contributing to why this player was getting the reaction that he did for the answer he gave (even in part just spillover anger from some people at the state of the game, either the current meta and ruleset or how Blades of Khaine represent the amount of rules a single team requires you to keep track of), and I also understand that both of you are extremely familiar with the situation and there's an assumed knowledge of it, but there was a lot of circling back to other parties and the values of losing and as someone that regularly follows the game, I still wasn't aware this happened and was frustrated and jumping to my own conclusions listening.
And without knowledge of what happened, hearing about people's moral character secondhand feels like you're defending them because you know them, even with you directly stating multiple times that you're trying to avoid that implication. Hearing about Dakota, Squad Games, and BATs and just knowing "they're involved" without knowing the situation or how they're involved because you wanted to drop all of the details at once doesn't really work when that information is being left to the imagination. It's actually somewhat infuriating because it feels like you're withholding the information and going "before we tell you anything, you need to know how good these people are and what a shame it is that this is happening."
Which again, I believe you on this and agree. It's just that sharing personal stories before addressing what happened while continually discussing it vaguely just builds up the incident in question.
Anyways, beyond that, this is a hard situation as a lot of rules in Kill Team are like this and "gotchas" is incredibly broad, but a similarly vague question like "do you have any abilities that interact with melee?" and being told no would absolutely be withholding information that's open knowledge, even though it came from an equipment (or say if someone had asked a Kommando player if their model had any abilities and they use Just a Scratch and claimed that it came from ploys not the model). It's such a fuzzy area with the wording, because I also wouldn't say a player should be forced to go through every faction rule, ploy, and model rule if an opponent asked "what can that do?", especially multiple times over a match.
And there's also a matter of expectations around the game itself and its setting. In a casual game, being blindsided can actually feel somewhat novel if not actually fun. In a friendly match, I've had moments I think of as my opponent activating a trap card that I walked into, but this being a competitive scene it can feel like you were withheld information that you should've been granted and that the stakes matter more here (even though it really is a game played with toys). This is also where you come back to the multiple comments of "this match feels hard to watch" and "this doesn't seem friendly" make the moment stand out even more to most people.
I agree with you guys that this doesn't feel like cheating, and that the players should focus on improving. Beyond just the stuff you talked about with how to handle losses, I'd also say that if you find yourself in situations where your opponent feels like there's a lot of gotchas to teams you play, you should be looking at bringing game aids or other reminders to help make matches more friendly. In addition, you do absolutely need to know how to ask the right questions and what questions are bad ones (I can't help but feel that while I'm iffy on what the BoK answered, asking about "gotchas" when you're playing into a team that NEEDS tricks to win right before making a decision feels also close to bad sportsmanship).
Ah apologies, we were trying to address the biggest issues which people had as that was the main complaint online
Asking the right questions is complex, and something I'll cover in another video, but agree Chris still should have clarified once it was made clear what Sammy meant (which they did off stream after the game but should have been right after the moment imo).
To clarify here as well just for your edification he asked the BoK player if he could fall back, was told no and said "I'm gonna kill you, unless there is any trickery I need to remember" thats not a vague question. The equipment, as I am sure you are aware, is open information and can be used once per game so that information should be clear to both players at all times.
We chose to reply the way we did for a reason. Focusing too much on the specific words and exact instances doesn’t feel like it resolved anything. So many people wanted to fixated on that one specific interaction and prove either 1) he was like magnus and did nothing wrong or 2) he’s a dirty cheater. We chose to focus on how to move forward, how the community should gear their expectations and how the players should resolve things. If you felt you were misled or had things hidden from our discussion I apologize and if you could find any positive take aways for your own perspectives then that’s awesome. If I specifically said or did anything you felt was wrong let me know and I’ll take it to heart.
Thanks guys. Great advice - going to try not to let the losses sting as bad
It's difficult but amazing when you master it (:
I also want to watch the streamed top table tournament game where John jumps the table at Jimmy to engage in fisticuffs...
KT street hammer 👀
@@CanYouRollaCrit I mean, Jimmy's already got the wrestling villain entrance down cold. We can make this a thing
I'd disagree the question was vague. The Warp Coven player wasn't asking for every available gimmick or option. He was obviously asking a question about a very specific phase of the game. If we try and play the game by intent we should also be able to have a reasonable interpretation of our opponents intent with a question too.
From playing a number of competitive tabletop games, the most toxicity usually doesn't happen at the X-0 or 0-X tables but rather the middle. Cheaters and angle shooters have a hard time getting things by top table players who have everything memorized and aren't afraid to call judges in questionable moments / for tight measurements. And that can be a depressive effect on players trying to break into top table level play, when you get weird social interactions from people trying to win outside of the game it can make you question whether its worth sticking with the game/community.
GW also has a frustrating tendency to bake into their games a lot of weirdly loose / gray areas that are fertile ground for bad behavior - TLOS being a prime example of an easy place for someone to be permissive with seeing their opponents pieces and restrictive of their opponent seeing their own models.
I also disagree with the 'too vague' discourse in this instance - the question is clearly about the existence of rules that could be used within the scope of the fight sequence to alter the outcome. Whether the BoK player did it maliciously or not that response muddied the game state unnecessarily. Talking to MtG players is referenced, but KT is not a private information game in the same way.
Yeah, I've actually generally seen the worse stuff at mid tables, which is so weird
Yeah GW's poor wordings make it worse, especially with this new edition
It was still too vague, me and Jimmy would have likely still clarified but the reason my MTG friends sided with BoK is because it was stated information at the start of the game. Not saying they're right, just what their stance was
@@CanYouRollaCritWhat do you think are the expectations of top players re rule memorization? As a casual I rely on my opponent to be open and honest about their rules, I don't haven't the time or inclination to memorize every faction. Is it reasonable to expect top tables to remember every single thing they're told at the begining of the game? Genuine question
I feel that being clumsy. My hands tend to shake, especially in public places and that just ends with terrain being nudged, miniatures thrown over and if my opponent feels like it's on purpose I'm pretty much screwed. I've started just throwing the game in that case because I don't want to deal with it.
Ah nah I do that sometimes too, just apologise and move on, only bad opponents would weaponise that (:
I've had many games with people who had shaky hands and they would apologize profusely every turn ahead of time unnecessarily. Don't throw, you're good, let your opponent know ahead of time, most people are super understanding when it comes to things like this because it's not something that's always within your control. We're all built differently coming together to play with our war dollies. Have grace and let people have grace as well. If you run up against someone who isn't able to forgive, you can always talk it out with your opponent ahead of time before you move a model, and use a proxy model with the same base or call a TO over to mediate, that's what they're there to do. Enjoy the game and don't be hard on yourself!
I think in Kill Team, especially in the tournament scene, playing by intent and communicating with your opponent as well as assuming your opponent has good intentions, alleviates the issue of slightly nudged models. Tables get bumped into, things move around, sometimes you literally have to pick up models to open hatchways, precise placement can be very very difficult but making things clear together with your opponent can be easy.
“I want to be within an 1” of this cover, I want to be outside of a 9” charge range of this operative, ect.” Given those things are possible, this just makes things easier and better understood.
@@luciferous138 Oh yeah most people are super great. It's just that if you do deal with someone who feels cheated I'd rather just not. I don't care enough about a single game or getting my points to have that sort of confrontation.
If there’s a time for getting sweaty surely it’s at the top table of killteam worlds! I sometimes go on tilt in casual games. It’s why we play these games. We get invested. In the end it doesn’t matter what the audience thinks. It matters how the players felt at the time and after. Give them a break. Tired game 9 in the finals. Internet hate is worse than a game argument.
Oh totally, makes it worse that there are a lot of people upset at it for the sake of drama, having not actually been interacting or playing the game till the drama happened
Always enjoy your videos and they've inspired me to try and play in tournaments. Can you suggest how to find suitable ones for beginners? I live in the south east of the UK and the only tournaments I find when I search seem intimidatingly big.
Ah any tournament really! All the UK ones are very friendly but also can be found via Facebook and bcp app
I'm not sure how the environment is comparatively between our scenes, but I'd recommend jumping in and having fun. Take a friend with you if you can, talk about the nonsense and the cool moments after, and go to have fun. You're going to learn a lot more from a tournament than you are from a game every few weeks. Most important thing is sportsmanship and having fun.
@@luciferous138 thanks for the advice - I'll do just that
People have to accept that we're all human and make mistakes. If we had to shun everyone who had a game with questionable sportsmanship than there wouldn't be many people left to play with anymore.
Yup, so many people would be long gone like me haha
Accountability is still important tho. Playing in a way that creates feel bads and gotchas is harmful to competitive killteam
So, I have taken the time to rewatch the game up to the point where the interaction takes place. For context - I have however not been able to find the time to watch other games yet. I got side-tracked by a rules question on an ITD game (door opening moving a model out of engagement range) and then never got back to watching.
I think there are two levels at which this should be looked at. There is the specific interaction in that one fight. To me it is very clear, that BoK should have allowed WC to go back when he said "this is what I was talking about". I honestly do not know why WC did not ask for this. To me it is the most normal thing in the world and not offering is poor sportsmanship.
But is he totally in the wrong? WC literally said "I hit you with a normal" so BoK would have been perfectly within his rights to just say "no takebacks". In the immortal words of Fezzik -"not very sportsmanlike" but with these stakes I could see it even if I would not recommend it.
Secondly - there are a lot of comments about attitude and how people present as condenscending etc. I feel people need to cut both people involved some slack. Playing in the last day of a multi-day tournament is exhausting, no matter what table you are at. I have been there, and let me tell you, it is harder than you think to keep your composure when something like the mulit-kill sorcerer move happens to you. People are passionate about this game and I think it is ok to be passionate. Why should BoK just accept his guys being flamered away in a position he was sure he was safe in?
Playing against Warp Coven even in a normal game is such mind-wracking experience. I have had one game vs them at WTC and 4 at WCW and I still find it hard to to try and remember what the models can do (as there are not consistent models for each sorcerer and they have top up abilities that can change plus additional top ups one can opt in), even without WYSIWYG issues. I can totally see why BoK would miss the fact that the move was possible. But was it legal at all? We will never know as rather than using a proxy, the model got moved before a judge was called on what was probably a game deciding play. Am I saying that was cheating and people should pile onto WC? Hell no. I see zero intention to cheat - he was just happy that he had been gifted an incredible break in a final and went ahead with the move too fast after a long time of tough matches. But in light of that is it ok that BoK is kicking himself that he A. let the model be moved and B. missed that potential interaction? Yes! I honestly feel BoK did really well to keep calm and carry on what was pretty much a game decider.
On the subject of growth. I wanted to pick up the example Jimmy gave of feeling his every move is being questioned in a game and how that made him feel. I have, to my shame, been that guy in the final game of a GT (not with Jimmy!). I was simply exhausted, and my opponent was in a rush as they had a train to catch and just playing way faster than I could or wanted to follow. I know the other player and can say 100% he was not trying to do anything unfair. I felt I just wanted to make sure I understood what happened but that was not how my opponet felt. So he blew up and I was shocked and had a long think after the game how we got there. So let's be honest: being a top table game adds to the pressure of these situations and every word one says has more attached to it. I am only glad that game was not streamed and I have avoided being piled on for not being a good watch or having a the wrong attitude nor my opponent for losing his cool. I am also glad that I was able to learn from the experience to try and find a better way to communicate in this kind of situation and to see the other side. So I heartily welcome the comment about growth. We can all grow and get better and that is certainly where I want to get to in my play.
So please - even top table players are human beings and the better the people one plays with, the more the brain hurts after 8 or 9 games. Be kind to each other. Yes, by all means criticise and make sure the game is being played the right way - but be constructive rather than personal and give people a second chance.
Hey, this is a great point about my commentary of my game. I spoke with the player which focused me to really think and put words to a vague subject like feelings within interactions. I never felt there was any maliciousness and I want to find a format to share the thoughts from the conversation I had. Keep an eye on tabletop mayhem cause that may be the platform I go into further detail. Thanks for your thoughts, I’m still trying to do better at understanding and growing in all this too
Represent us well!!!!
Ok, to any experienced players in here...
What does the question, "Do you have any gotchas" mean to you? And have you used this phrase or have been asked this ever in the time you've been playing games?
Next.
Just because someone you feel as wronged you (slightly or greatly) does not mean you should give up basic sportsmanship in return. Especially in a professional setting.
Those are my 2 cents.
I usually explain anything I can do in that scenario but others differ
There has been multiple people saying that had bad experiences with some players mentioned but they don’t want to be very public about it and just have more negative issues. When people have an aggressive player it’s common for them to just never go to a tournament again. This is made worse when there is physical power imbalance. I get not wanting to ban people but by doing so you lose other people who don’t want to deal with hoping an event organizer handles the situation the next time. The tournament becomes only the people who can tolerate aggressive sweaty players. GW can’t make this a tight game rules wise so it is inherently gray. There are too many variables. If you give even a little on being a jerk about abusing those gray areas, the player base will be severely limited. I don’t want the hobby to be even more of a mono culture of literally and figuratively, aggressive, sweaty guys.
I still don't think it's that extreme.
While it is a shame to hear that people have had bad experiences, they really need to let the TOs so something can be done as you can't do anything if nothing is reported. The TO network is strong and they work together to police and monitor bad behaviour.
It's the same with cheating, if you don't inform TOs about it mid game or right after, nothing can really be done about it unless it was caught on stream
@@CanYouRollaCrit the other side is people won’t report if they don’t trust TO to do something, especially if they then have to play that person again. The person being friends with the TO is a very risky to say anything. If you have been playing KT for years and you still are a crappy opponent, it’s very reasonable to think that their friends don’t see a problem with it.
The drunk player situation gets more serious because they should have been kicked out of the event immediately if they were so drunk. It’s a physical safety risk.
Nah we're not like 40k. The TOs here are very independent and won't use friendship as a reason not to interveen with bad sportsmanship
Yeah the drunkness is never appropriate at events
If you listen closely, when Chris said no, he also said something crits (it wasnt picked up well), it could have been that he answered when he have no trick regarding crits.
Also, Sammy declare he strikes with Normal first, and only asks about tricks when Chris asks if he heard Sammy right
That was too unclear for me but I know both players clarified the situation themselves after (with Chris apologising)
It’s a bit unfair to presume that someone who finds BATS (and the like) antics over the top ALSO thinks that they are bad people. I find them over the top and ridiculous, but I would still be happy to play them. I can see how they could come across as deliberately trying to intimidate, although I personally do not believe that to be the case. Quiet introverted people (a lot of gamers) don’t always react positively to the pre-game roar.
But people in the reddit thread were doing exactly that, they aren't trying to intimidate anyone and multiple teams were doing at LVO too
Cats, bats, rats... Need more smol animal team names
What about HATS 👀
A team of push overs called the Mats
One thing we have to remember (only 30min in the episode but im about to go go work) is this is a streamed game. There are 80+ other games being played that dont have 100+ "T.Os" watching the game and telling the players they are playing wrong.
Steaming is for entertainment purposes not so people can tell the commentators that they need to tell the players they are playing the rule wrong.
I like commenting and interacting in these streams but generally as a way to keep up conversation with the chat and commentators for entertainment purposes
Yeah pretty much, considering we had someone else trying to do a reddit witch hunt on a certain player because they thought they were cheating (they weren't), it really questions whether it's worth streaming games at all
Surprised they didn't hate on Fellgore again these guys hate Beastmen
My hate for goats has died down
Sir I love beastmen!
I think it's rubbish to ask a player "Do you have any gatchas"... Ask to look at their cards, ask to review their list...etc, but it's not the opponents responsibility to tell them what they can and cannot do in every scenario. That seems ridiculous... It's one thing to be purposefully misleading or initiate deceit.
Fair but it's actually a common thing we do at events now before starting the game. Tell each other any "gotcha" interactions our teams have so they're not a surprise mid-game
@@CanYouRollaCrit - That's a much different scenario than provided in the video, yea? Going over stuff in the beginning, compared to asking in the midst of the battle... The first example seems reasonable, asking right before a "gotcha" can be had, seems like the opponent playing the game for you. "Now now, if you do that I can do this and beat you." that feels silly.
@brofessorx5722 yeah that's the issue. Considering Kill Team is an open information game (sans Tac Ops that aren't revealed yet and Primary Op), it's difficult to justify not telling the opponent when asked (you should say imo)
@ - Fair enough... It just seems to go completely against the spirit of tournament competition... Asking to see their datacards, or to review their ploys middle of the match seems reasonable. Asking them to specifically announce what they can do as a "gotcha" right before you MIGHT make a call seems ridiculous. .. Idk, I'm all for friendly competition, but one seems completely reasonable and the other seems like you want them to protect you from making a misplay.
HATE mentioned 🩷
HATE FOREVER
I’d argue that losing because you have forgotten rules is a part of skill. Game knowledge is important. Obv in friendly games it’s not a big deal to walk stuff back, but tournaments are a test of knowledge and applying it.
how did you pick up so fast that his dog is pregnant?! 😲
Super power 👀
He secretly stocks me. I keep finding him in my bushes but he won’t leave me alone
Adding, 9 out of 9 games and nothing happened once at LVO. It's just outside looking in opinions imo, very rare to see bad sportsmanship.
Yeah exactly, he had 8 other great games and game 9 was just bad error which can be fixed
BATS is awesome, they give me beer and I kissed Sam 😘 🍺
Why won't they give me beer 😭
Hi Elijiah! Love you bud 💗
What in the tarnation is going on here?!?! Sorry I turn into a 19th century prospector when I find out I wasn’t offered kisses and beer
@@JimmyK53 it’s a 2 apl mission action for smooches 💋
@@samr442 love my bats 🦇
In my opinion (which doesn’t matter) is that Bachi (SP) did not do anything wrong with the question. The faction he is playing has several special rules. These rules often break the standard rules of the game. I would consider those as “shenanigans”. A piece of equipment is not shenanigans.
Game 8 was way worse and made me question signing up for an event at Adepticon.
Yeah it was questionable as the equipment is announced at the start of the game
As for game that is 100% not the norm and almost never happens. Hopefully you still go adepticon as it's a great event for KT and everything else (:
May I ask what specifically about game 8 was hard for you?
@ it seemed like the players were getting frustrated. One was questioning almost every move. Even after the models had been moved. I was just trying to imagine how I would have reacted to it. Made me feel like he was trying to throw the other player off by interrupting his activations.
Specifically the end of turn 2 and the first activations of turn 3.
Im a perfect example of why ITC doesnt mean anything. I never won a tournament, hell i think i had like a 4-15 overall record and just because i played 5 or 6 tournaments that was enough to get me to just inside top 250 USA
Ooooh nice!
We demand BLOOD! 😂
I WANNA SEE FISTS
@ NEVER BRING A FIST TO A WARHAMMER FIGHT! 😇
Edit: better metaphor
Rule 0 - Ignore Reddit
Best rule ever
Sheesh half the time I'm happy if I can remember my rules even if I could use them. If someone asked me in general if I got any tricks the answer is "probably? Like what?"
Tricks are for kids 👀
But yeah asking the right questions is important
Not to brag, but I am one of the cool guys 😎
Cool gang peeps are the best 😎
@CanYouRollaCrit indeed 😌
Reveal your identity stranger!
@@JimmyK53 i am one of those that listened to the whole video/pod 🙂↕️
Ok that is the best kind of cool person!
Chris owes nothing to these people. He shouldn't "soul search," and he shouldn't appease the angry mob trying to torch him alive.
People are bad heroes. I hope no one ever looks up to me on how to act in real life. That's their own journey. I'll have bad days and good days, I'm not a good "ambassador." Humans are a troubled bunch, and anyone demanding perfection is just setting themselves up for failure. Just have grace, give people the benefit of the doubt, steel man their arguments, etc. ie; don't be a Redditor.
I think he can improve on the sportsmanship (and will) but the hatemob is unreal.
No one needs to do anything BUT if you care what people think about you then it’s only reasonable to put effort into understanding how you’re perceived.
@@JimmyK53 Stop caring what people think. Especially those who argue in bad faith, and encourage mobs of people to attack you.
They aren't worth your time or energy. Most of them relish in the power of being able to control your behavior through fear and mob tactics.
"Well, enough people said I needed to do this, so I did it."
Is quite possibly the weakest (and dumbest) thing you could do. Stay true to yourself, trust the people who love you, and let strangers go find someone else to watch.
@ being unconcerned with how your actions and words impact others is narcissism. I’ll stick with my philosophy. Be true to yourself but be aware of how you come across. Simple.
@@JimmyK53 I'm not sure why, but my response vanished.
Jimmy - being concerned with people in your immediate circle is fine. Family, peers, friends, etc. That's normal and expected.
Being concerned with the online masses, in which you'll never meet, and aren't even playing against, is an entirely different story.
You will not please these people en masse, so stop caring what they think, and find people who give you the benefit of the doubt and steel man your arguments.
Again, the people who started this witch hunt:
1.) Weren't even at the con
2.) Weren't the ones playing the game
3.) Don't even know Chris
He has no obligation to make them feel better about their actions, or his actions. He will never meet 99% of those people, and most of what hate-mobs want is power, not apologies.
GG.
This is kind of dumb. If you are playing competitively, you can’t expect your opponent to tell you all their abilities. We are also forgetting the crucial game winning action where the Warp Fire wizard teleported over the razor wire, zorched 3 warriors and then just dipped back like no big deal. It was a great play by the player, but Chris was completely caught off guard because of his forgetting how the rule worked…
If you don’t want to lose, don’t play. I think Chris lost very well. It maybe because most of my competitive experience comes from physical competitions, but you can 100% be “not OK” with losing. It is used to learn and make you better and drive you to compete again. It is different than being a “bad loser.”
Kinda, there's very little hidden information in the game so you need to be open with your abilities and rules. But that's why it's also important to ask the right questions
Yeah being not okay with losing is fine too
@ for sure, and to clarify, I wasn’t calling your video dumb, been watching since the UWs days, I was calling the situation and reaction dumb. I get it that this game and table top games in general exist of varying levels of competitiveness, but I also have experienced that at large events, people don’t have the maturity or experience to deal with super competitive play. I watched the match live stream and remember thinking during that particular situation, that Sammy simply suffered from the same lack of knowledge or familiarity with the Blades rules as Chris did during the Warp Fire teleport move. Did Sammy feel the need to tell Chris about his Fly rule when Chris set up his razor wire? Knowing full well it would have no effect on the Scorceror with the Torrent weapon? I don’t think so. Nothing is stopping players from having the rules accessible to them, and if they forget the rules mid-game, that is all part of the competitive environment. You should have to play your best to win, not rely on your opponent to tell you if your plays have negative consequences.
I think the backlash from this event says more about the community than it does the two players. If your main focus of the game is to “have fun,” that can be done at your local shop or even with AI rules. Tournaments are an opportunity to test your skills and knowledge against other players and see how you rank up in success. Winning is how that is determined. Your number at the ladder at the end of the event doesn’t rank you as a person, it isn’t personal. It gages your success at the event. The community is strong when players get together, grind each other into the dirt for 3 days at the highest level of competitive play and then go have a beer after. That is the hallmark of a mature, competitive community.
@30:30 well said jimmy. And i can agree john is enjoyable 100%
I try my best 🥹
He makes events better when he’s there! I think it’s highest goal any of us can shoot for as players!
@JimmyK53 agreed 100%. Which is why I remain in the shadows of the public laughing quietly with cegorach lolol
Im never one to mind losing and agree with jimmy it can make you friends. Buuuut mr rees owes me a game where it isnt a sea of 1s to see if i can crush them welsh boys lololol
Rematch at next LVO aha
@CanYouRollaCrit come to adepticon if ya can and we can fight in the frozen north! Lolol
27:14 It shouldn’t be a matter of belief, but of fact. You 100% can and are capable of winning any game you enter into, it only boils down to your will to do so
Or intellect. Or skill. Pattern recognition, temerity. Killteam as a game can take every competitive edge, but it can also be a friendly match of capped objectives and launching weapon rules at each other. The latter is mostly my favorite type of play. Also note, if you get a win you don't believe in, it can almost feel like it was undeserved.
Yeah, gotta have that positive reinforcement
Totally. I know several people who aren’t sure if they are capable of winning and have a lot of doubts, or maybe still have more to learn before they are good enough. Be good enough, believe you are good enough and don’t feel the need to prove it to others