Bad Solder Ruins Everything
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- This is actually meant as helpful encouraging information. See my tech gear listed below for the soldering equipment I use, so I can easily get infinitely better results than in this poor wah.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
These are things I get asked about a lot :
Amp Tech Gear Used :
Hakko FX-951 soldering station
Weller SPG 80L soldering iron (chassis work)
Rigol DS1054Z digital oscilloscope
Thsinde 18B+ digital multimeters
Kester 60/40 solder
Techspray #4 No-Clean Desoldering Braid
Below are things that make this channel possible that people don’t usually think about. If any of these companies want to send me new and wonderful toys, I’m open to that. I can’t take free stuff when it comes to the amps I review, etc, but for the stuff below, bribe away!
Microphones/Audio Equipment :
Guitar Amps : Royer R-10 Hot Rod and/or Shure SM57 (noted in videos)
Voiceover Bench : sE Audio sE8 (small diaphragm condenser)
Voiceover Streaming : Shure SM57 with shockmount and windscreen
Voiceover Mic Arms : Elgato Wave Mic arms
Guitar Mic Stand : Gator Frameworks short weighted base stand with boom
Mic Cables and Guitar Cables : Mogami/Neutrik
Mic pre : MOTU M2
DAW : Logic Pro X on MacBook Pro 16 running Sonoma 14.0
Plugins : No effects other than level matching/normalization unless a recording
specifically has reverb etc added in post (rare, various Waves plugins)
Monitors : Yamaha HS7s
Monitor Stands : Gator Frameworks Desktop Clamp-On Stands
Monitor Isolation Mounts : IsoAcoustics Iso-Puck Minis
Headphones : Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro (main)
Headphones : Sony MDR-7506 (alternate)
Video Equipment :
Camera : Sony ZVE-10 with SmallRig Cage (main)
Lens : Sigma f2.8 18-50mm (main)
Lens : Sony ZVE10 kit lens (rarely used)
B Camera : Apple iPhone 13 Pro (rarely used)
Tripod : SmallRig 71” with SmallRig Fluid Video Head
Streaming Mount : Elgato Master Mount S with SmallRig Ballhead
Bench Light : SmallRig RC 120D
Bench Light Diffusor : SmallRig Lantern Softbox
Bench C-Stands (light and overhead camera) : Neewer Pro SS Heavy Duty
Streaming Light : SmallRig RC 120B
Streaming Diffusor : SmallRig Parabolic Softbox
Streaming Light Mount : SmallRig 148CM Wall Mount Boom with Triangle Base
Various Other Lights : Neewer LED Panels with Neewer Softboxes
Video Software :
Davinci Resolve 18.6
Paul Leeming LUTs
Adobe Illustrator 28.0
Adobe Photoshop 25.0
Ecamm Live (streaming software)
Hey guys, it’s my wah and my solder.. just wanted to say that when Lyle talked to me personally about this his criticism was very constructive and not demeaning at all. He was also very encouraging that I try again with the proper tools and some guidance from him. Great guy, great tech
Thanks for commenting mate. Lyle is obviously a knowledgeable engineer/tech and a great guy. Good on you for going to him for the heads-up.
That's the way. Listen and learn. When I was starting out 25 years ago, I was hopeless at soldering. A friend with years of experience finally - literally - took the solder iron from my hand and said, "Enough. You are horribly botching it. Let me show you how to do this properly." I still remember his admonition to always keep the solder tip clean & tinned, understand your solder's melting temp, and always heat the work, then feed the solder. He and I shared many a hearty laugh recalling that lesson since then, and his bold mentoring despite my noob ego (Thank you Paul, RIP my friend).
Lyle is obviously an expert, and you could not be in better hands if learning is your goal. Keep that great attitude and best to you in your journey!
Yes. Just new try with better solder.
Those tropical fish caps and that pot core inductor seemed very correct stuff. 👍
Thanks for the kind words all. I’ll be pointing him to a Hakko, the right Kester, and a good source for Switchcrafts and good wire. I’ll be giving him some in person pointers next time he comes by. Maybe I’ll do a little video with the same info for everyone. Maybe I’ll make a cable. I think all serious electronic musicians should learn how to make/repair cables as that will save you thousands over the course of a career, even as an enthusiastic amateur.
@@PsionicAudio I, for one, think this a great idea and would really appreciate this education!!! Thanks for all the great videos.
Pointing out bad solder isn't being mean. Showing where things are not done properly, or done cheaply, is one of the main reasons I subscribe to your channel.
I, for one, have upped my game considerably since having subscribed to both Lyle's channel and Brad's Guitar Garage. We are very, very fortunate to have access to such freely shared expertise. Thank you Lyle & Brad!
Let me be an old aircraft electrician to also extol the virtues of Kester 60/40. Its simply the best all around solder you can buy.
As a professional electronics engineering technician, I wholeheartedly concur!
As someone who solders all day everyday, my biggest recommendation is to get a $100 Hakko FX-888D and use leaded solder.
leaded rosin core solder is the way to go for sure. also, it's so important to actually heat up the area you're soldering. people are so worried about burning components out that they do this thing where they melt solder onto the tip and try to transfer it to the component instead of melting the solder at the contact point. that's a bad joint waiting to fail if it even works in the first place.
I would love to see videos on how to solder clean joints, best practices for joining to components together etc..
Stew Mac has great video on this... th-cam.com/video/E-O2TGoArrY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=AF-h-c13i5Xh1F0L
They are in abundance on YT. I have viewed several, and because I recently had an ENGL amp of German-mfg on my bench, and not having a lot of experience with lead-free, I watched a few YT videos on this. In one such, I learned that when applying lead-free solder to a PCB pad, it is advisable to feed the solder at an angle that is flush with the board. Apparently, it adheres more completely to the breadth of the solder pad. I did find that to be the case in practice. Prior to then I was seeing the solder not reach all areas of the pad. Also learned that one should feed the lead-free solder more slowly than is typical for lead solder. Took me a bit of practice to get shiny joints. I now keep a separate iron and cache of tips for lead-free work, not mixing them with my lead solder gear. If others have comments re: these tips, I would love to hear them.
@@spumpstein9374, lead-free solder also requires higher tip temperature than leaded solder does.; and unlike rosin flux which is pretty much neutral, rarely conductive (except perhaps at high voltages) or corrosive, the special fluxes used for leadfree solder are both corrosive and conductive and therefore leaving any flux residue behind can be very problematic.
@@goodun2974 Thanks very much for the good information. I did note the temp has to be greater for lead-free, but did not know about the residue issue. I am in the habit of cleaning up after soldering, using iso alcohol, applied with a q-tip to gently scrub off any flux residue. I did that on the ENGL amp I was working on, but now that I know how critical it is, I will be extra vigilant in thoroughly cleaning up after lead-free soldering. Seems to make sense to be tidy when soldering with lead-free as well, to hopefully reduce the need for cleanup. Thanks so much!
@@spumpstein9374 , fluxes for leadfree solder are designed to be *water soluble*. Alcohol is for cleaning rosin flux used for lead solder.
maybe plumbing solder with some acid flux in it? might be why its etching the board on contact and why it wouldn't tin
Hi Lyle, I just found your channel about 4 months ago, then found Brad's and Yeetsee's (not sure I spelled that right} through your channel, they are all wonderful. Subbed to all. Proficient soldering is an art, similar to welding. once you learn to do it it's like riding a bicycle, it becomes second nature. it takes longer to clean and tin everything than it does to make the actual connection. I learned soldering in a radiator repair shop on copper/brass radiators. Clean, Hot And FAST that's how I was taught. and heat control. so you don't melt everything. some of the crap that is being sold as solder is junk. I usually test an unknown quality roll of solder by tinning some old junk jacks or pots. You can usually tell right away as it will act just as the video shows, it is as if there is no flux in it, you can add flux paste, and it helps, but it still unsatisfactory.
I've seen this same solder. I think it might either be eBay or a kit vendor selling small lengths with projects.
The other key problem is that none of the soldered joints started with a sound physical connection with the wire wrapped through the lug and not relying on the solder to maintain the connection.
Excellent observation.
Gerald Weber's videotapes from 30 years ago: "....and first you need a good, mechanical connection...."
Looking forward to the best practices soldering video you mentioned. Thank you for all you do as well as your perspective. It's refreshing.
As I look through the comments… of course rosin core 60/40 solder is by far easier to work with. There are reasons the electronics industry moved away from leaded solder and rosin flux; mostly for the safety and health of the people on the line being heavly exposed day after day. Lead free takes another level of expertise along with the proper flux and higher heat to get sufficient wetting and flow. A good friend of mine turned me onto lead free 10 years ago and I have never looked back since.
A video like this is so amazingly helpful! It’s almost like an apprenticeship to see this! Thank you!
I see an Engineer SS02 solder sucker. Good stuff.
Yeah I've seen those drop in boards, pretty neat, "lead free" is bad news in the world of solder.
I have 1968 Clyde McCoy wah that needs some work, but I'm leery of using modern solder on it which would probably yield similar solder joints.. I know I have a spool of pre-ROH compliant solder somewhere in a box from a previous move. I'll wait until I find it before I try to do any work on it.
For me this is a CHASE TONE™ Vox Clyde McCoy 1967 Picture Wah Replica PCB. Normally well built and with high quality NOS components…but indeed , the solder used seems to be cheap, ledfree and not well flowing. I bet Lyle gave goodmadvice to the owner and after some practicing with a good solder iron, good solder and sufficient patience he will be able to build this properly…
lots of cold solder joints. grey is not your friend folks
Good advice - by the time he does all those joints himself he'll be an expert. (and no hi voltages to worry about)
Solder appears to be akin to the chip quick brand. Works well for surface mount devices and that's it. Removal and splatter control a technique in itself.
LOL I wish I had seen this video a few years ago when I ordered a kit to make a Vox Wah myself. What a mess it was. I didn't have the skill to do it right, messed the whole thing up and ended up spending so much money to get it repaired that I would have saved a ton of money if I had just gone out and bought a brand new wah. Live and learn 😄
When you're not getting an intermetallic bond on a connector despite having the aid of flux it may well be an issue of poor plating.
No save money on EBay solder. Just stick with Kester. No pun intended.
I think he should try soldering 100 patch cables first and then try working on this amp himself again after learning the trick. Everyone is a beginner at first.
YES! Long overdue, some techs, some of them with 30yrs+ experience do not now how to solder. It is not only head knowledge, this must be translated through good hands, good workmanship. There's nothing that devalues, and destroys an otherwise good chassis more than bad solder. BTW the orig Bassman jack solder doesn't appear factory, excessive heat, burned insulation, or, sub-standard quality by what I have seen on original Fender amps.
I’ve had this problem before where the solder won’t adhere to the 1/4” jacks. I think it’s a problem with cheaper sourced jacks, not sure why. Maybe they’re coated in machine oil so the solder won’t flow but I’ve seen this before and it’s definitely a jack problem. Not that good solder technique won’t help
People need to realize that they can’t do everything like a professional can, come on people that’s the facts! 😎👍Lyle you’re the man ,thanks…
Hey Lyle. After seeing how it etched the board when hested. I'm wondering if he somehow used plumber's/acid core solder?
What do you think?
If it etching the board my thoughts it is old pluming solder not 60/40 or silver content electrical non acid solder . My best guess. That looks like 3 hours min.
Flux is quite helpful when soldering. Just didn't see evidence any was used on the joints he soldered.
Why is it that Leo and the gang could build them so well, but today they can't seem to do that. My guess is that the jack that Lyle is talking about is a Chinese knock off.
One could theoretically scuff up those cheap Jack posts some fine grit, clean them with alcohol and then try to solder.
A scotchbright pad, ink eraser, or ( my personal preference) a fiberglas-bristle scratch brush work well for cleaning terminals prior to soldering. Degrease with alcohol after polishing the terminals.
Lead-free solder is a curse upon mankind. Especially if you are re-using old parts such as tube sockets, which some may frown upon. Completely unforgiving of any shortcoming in cleaning or heat f flux or phase of the moon. Fortunately I found a roll of good old Kester 44 at a garage sale for a buck.
I just swapped out pickups in my Squier Jaguar and I kept having static noise. I ended up redoing both the ground solders and the noise went away. I just started making my own patch cables which is a great way to practice making good solder joints.
Some of the worst soldering ive seen. But we all learn, its a process.
I'm only 3 minutes in... acid core solder?
Soldering is a skill that has to be learned and practiced. Not something you can do once or twice in a lifetime. Especially today, there is so much more to know. Great channel!
I had all kinds of soldering troubles until I learned about proper soldering temperature. Once I set the soldering iron properly, a lot of issues were solved
Thanks for listing the solder you use. I’m relatively new at this but often find a lot of “solder is solder” sentiment on the inter webs. (Something I always found suspect, knowing a little about materials)
Definitely - it's something you don't appreciate until you know the difference. If you purchase from Amazon marketplace or any number of questionable online sources (or even big box hardware stores in my experience), it's not a guarantee that what you get is going to be of much quality... But at the same time buying from specialist electrical sellers, they often cater to trade/industrial customers so you get dozens of options for all sorts of applications, and it's quite opaque to most people which to buy unless you know what you need.
Ditto on soldering irons, etc, and buying components!
For the most part, leaded solder (old school) is not sold any more. I have seen multiple TH-cams where folks painted the joint to be soldered with liquid flux. I have never, in 50 years, needed to do that. Not with new parts. With skungy older parts, working on WW2 surplus junk, it would be helpful, but you will need to scrape or file away any obvious corrosion until you see clean shiny metal or you'll NEVER get a nice shiny joint. And/or you'll have to overheat and then your connections look funky. Otherwise, soldering is a dumb-simple combo of good heat, clean tip, good solder, and a mechanically made joint. The joint should drink up the solder, it shouldn't be any kind of struggle. If you are embarking on a project where you'll be doing a lot soldering, you can definitely use a cheapo soldering iron as long as you keep the tip clean and tinned as long as you have the illegal leaded solder. Even with a really nice (2-piece) temp-controlled soldering station like a Weller or a Hakko, I still wipe the tip on a damp sponge every 2-3 joints. It just gets incorporated into your wrist action when you reach for the iron. Eutectic (lowest melting point) 63/37 solder is the best but 60/40 is perfectly fine but it damn well has to have lead (Pb) and of course resin flux in it. If you run out of solder, you generally CAN'T buy any leaded solder at your local hardware store, so it is wise to unwind a little backup spool and stash it away should you buy a 1 pound spool, easily available on ebay.
@@alanpecherer5705, I find that the brass wool sponges work better than the wet sponge.
So this comment doesn't invalidate everything in this video, and in the comments; and, indeed, the video doesn't beat the "lead-free" drum to the exclusion of everything else. But I'm compelled to be That Guy and say that lead-free solder is not evil, and there's plenty of bad leaded joints.
I've had a lead-free bench for almost a decade, and a separate area and tools for work on existing lead. For me, SN-100C/"K-100D" work great for hand-soldering, and aren't particularly expensive now. The process is different, but it's possible and it's nice. There _is_ another area for lead work, and music instrument repair stuff tends to go there, but I fantasize about never thinking about lead solder again, though that probably won't happen in my lifetime.
tldr to kids: Keep an open mind about lead-free solder.
Lead free can be great. In production amps it usually isn’t (most companies use the cheap stuff). And it has inherent issues that are problematic in amps (tim whiskers especially).
I bet you it's the harbor freight solder. I was trying to use it for a while and it was endlessly frustrating i thought my iron was broken or the heat element with cracks. Nope it was just purely the solder. Huge hassle. Just use the real deal silver bearing leaded rosin core.
60-40 lead-tin solder from a reputable source/manufacturer works, but if you can get the stuff with 2% silver that's even better. I have a roll of Kester with 2% silver that is my go-to for all soldering operations .
Just buy a new pedal.
Plumbing solder behaves like that. Falls right off of things.
Plumbing solder is bad for electronics, or so I've been told.
@@harleyhexxe9806 It is corrosive and must never be used
@@infectionsman Yep, that's what I was told.
@@infectionsman, old-school lead plumbing solder has a higher melting point than electronics solder, doesn't contain a flux core, and the separate flux used for plumbing is *highly corrosive*.
When I was doing an electronics course at my local university, they taught us how to prepare wires and joints for soldering, when preparing wire for soldering there are four steps, cut...which means that you cut the wire to length, strip....which means you strip-off the insulation from the wire, twist....which means you twist the individual strands of the wire into a single neat bundle, and tin....which means you coat the bare wire with solder, using this method I've been able to reduce the likelihood of bad solder joints down to a bare minimum where I hardly ever get any that are bad, a soldering station is highly recommended too.
When I was doing an electronics course at my local university, they taught us how to prepare wires and joints for soldering, when preparing wire for soldering there are four steps, cut...which means that you cut the wire to length, strip....which means you strip-off the insulation from the wire, twist....which means you twist the individual strands of the wire into a single neat bundle, and tin....which means you coat the bare wire with solder, using this method I've been able to reduce the likelihood of bad solder joints down to a bare minimum where I hardly ever get any that are bad, a soldering station is highly recommended too.
Thanks Lyle.
When I worked at CD Dist, I repaired a few MODKIT pedals that customers couldn't get working via email troubleshooting. In almost every case they used lead free solder with a cheap iron that didn't get hot enough. All the joints looked like the one in that wah pedal.
Either replace those jax or desolder and then sand down the terminals on those cheap Taiwanese jax just before soldering. They put a zinc anodizing on those cheesy Taiwanese made jax and then spray them with a plastic so they don't corrode. Maybe tin costs too much? It has a halo inductor in it, which is very nice. I have the maroon box TDK, the halo, the TDK halo, the stack of dimes, red, yellow and even green Fasels, and my own inductors. I put 4.7uF tantalum caps in my wah pedals too. No electrolytic caps. Mine are all 50+ years old and the 4uF caps were all junk, and I had bag of tantalum caps, so... Why not?
Gotta confess i ruined stuff, especially pickups with my 90s junk radioshack soldering iron for years, gave up. Now i'm a ace with kester solder and a pro Weller up at 800°F. Using flux to control flow was a game changer. Just get pro tools and practice... Many amazing instructional vids out here. Best time ever to learn!
I worked at an electronics assembly plant that designed and boult audio spectrum analyzers. They were built with PCB’s and were wave soldered. I often did warranty work, which involved unsoldering components from the board and replacing them. I remember using the suction device and the woven stuff to wick the remaining solder out of the holes. We would clean the board with MEK, which will likely cause some of us to get cancer some day…. I remember feeling good about creating secure solder joints. We knew that audio engineers needed their equipment to hold up in the field. A lot came down to solder joints. (And rechargeable batteries.)
Lmao Burnt tropical fish here. Had my wife asking what’s so funny.
I tried to modify a Dunlop wah to Colorsound specs. I kept lifting pads and swapping out parts.
At a certain point I decided to buy a Colorsound. Wahs suck to work on, and there's so many of them you can probably find what you want.
Oof. Ugly soldering that bad hurts.
@5:45 The thing about those 60-year-old solder connections is they were made with leaded tin and some flux. Whether or not to use leaded tin solder in 2024 might be somewhat controversial--I'm not unsympathetic to such concerns--but I know it's comparatively easy to work with provided the iron can put out the right amount of power and heat.
I’m just learning to solder myself. It does seem intimidating. But I’d rather do it well a number of times before attempting anything meaningful.
love this video. I've worked on repairing some old Dan Torres mods on a few Fenders and I've seen plenty of this stuff.
Have you ever fixed the feedback loop hum on PRS MT15? I have one and love it but it can be kinda noisy.
I bought some solder off eBay that was fine and so I reordered it when I ran out. Unfortunately, the second batch was exactly like this! Lesson for me was to only buy solder from a reputable brand.
Great video as always. I recently got a fr301 desoldering tool and while expensive, it makes this kind of rework so much more enjoyable. Might be something you’re interested in because those solder suckers just aren’t fun (although you do make it look easier than I find it to be).
Wahs are tricky like that. I've been building custom pedals for years and when people ask about a wah I usually offer options similar to yours: to mod one they own or to point them to an existing one that's close enough... Even building a new one can be too expensive for some.
Looks like i could do a better job soldering based on this video. I tried to build a spring reverb kit once and it didn't end up working. No wonder, most of my solder joints looked like that. It's not something i do often but i always felt good about at least knowing the basics.
My first attempts at soldering had me using bad solder like this too and I had know Idea what I was doing wrong so please let us know what we should use and how!
Lyle, do you like the Fulltone Clydes?
Yes, but not at the crazy prices they’re going for these days.
Gotta start somewhere. Probably used the solder that came with their iron.
How could you tell that the solder was not adhering to the jack?
When melted with the soldering iron the solder is pooling up into blobs - like water on a plastic surface - instead of spreading out over the surface like it should do.
The molten solder should look and behave as if it's "wetting" the connection.
Not mean at all. Any chance you’d do a soldering video? You could go over solder sizes, rosin vs non rosin core, temperatures, etc. have you considered trying affiliate links? Perhaps a way to generate some income for the channel. Thanks for these videos. They are very helpful. I got a stew Mac pedal kit for Christmas so definitely want to start off on the right foot. Happy new year from New Mexico. 😉
IF I'm not mistaken, I think Lyle did a video where he explained some soldering techniques a few years ago. I'm not sure which one or I'd put a link in here, sorry.
@@harleyhexxe9806thanks. I did a quick search but didn’t find anything. I’ll go back a bit further.
@@stevevender1154 Sorry Steve. I should have been more specific. It's not a video specifically about soldering techniques, it's a video of an amp repair, but there's a section where he gets into specific details on how to solder in certain situations. I should have made that more clear in my reply.
@@harleyhexxe9806 lol, no worries. I think I actually saw the one you were talking about. I’ll redo my search and see if I can find it again. 👍😉
@@stevevender1154 Yeah, I skip around so much on the old videos, especially the ones with amps similar to my old Fenders and such. I pick up a lot of useful information here about things that can go wrong in an amp if certain things aren't done right. It's going to be helpful to me when I start building a replica of a TW amp. I'll need all the pointers I can get.
just because you can doesn't mean you can.....
I didn't know some Jacks not accepting Solder properly could be due to them. I thought maybe I wasn't using the right temperature or brand/type solder. Do you have any advice on these two? Thanks
I've always used 60/40 rosin core solder for electronics. Small tip, regulated 700 deg. Or 25W-30W max iron.
You could see the white wire wiggle in the joint..
Never seen solder do that but wouldn't 1500 grit paper, a dab of flux fix that for the jacks?
I sometimes find some alpha pots needed lite scoring. I use a 80 watt Weller station with
alpha fry solder and works well but not like whatever that stuff is...
🤔
If it won’t accept solder, I’d seriously question what it is plated with, and how long the jack itself would last. Better to just toss it than to have to replace it down the line.
80W will fry everything unless you can solder within 1/8th of a second. 30W max on small electronics.
Chinese made jacks often have an unknown plating, not nickel like the plating on connectors of 60 years ago, and the Chinese jacks may be greasy or have an oxidizing film. Clean the terminals with a scotchbright pad, an ink eraser, or ---- my personal favorite ---- a fiberglas-bristle scratch brush. Degrease with alcohol.
@@stevebeck3164 The iron station is a 20 to 80 watt variable station which I flip irons using to a 40watt weller . No sledgehammer used for a finishing nail.🤣☑
Is rosin core solder the answer? Or lead solder? Please advise.
60-40 lead /tin solder with rosin flux core.
I'd send it right to Vox and say "wtf is this?"
As stated at the beginning, the client rebuilt the pedal himself. See his(client's) comments above about Lyle's advice and critique of his work.
a comment for the youtube metrics
it has to be that bad no clean solder type , need some 60/40 with good flux in it and some practice 👍🏻
ps i found the new dunlop wah with the red fasel sounds great and it's super cheap
wow, can't unsee that. i've never seen such poor quality solder before
buy a new wah?? …. you're so overstating this …. just fix it and charge a fair price …. the actual work required is easy for an amp tech … bread and butter stuff, hardly challenging
A used good condition Vox wah costs less than an hour of my time. So sorry my looking out for the client offends you.
shaking my head, yes …offended. no. To me, "looking out for the client" would be to just fix it. It is only a wah, and a simple job for you or any tech. I guess I am just less rigid
@@ZombiedustXXX I wasn't suggesting Psionic Audio fixed the wah for free …. Yeah I have fixed many wah pedals over the years as it happens, often a cracked inductor from a dropped pedal but various things. Mate in the grand scheme of electronics, tube amps and pedals are really quite basic, there are 100's of thousands of folks out there who possess the skills and who work on amps and such like . They don't all want to/or have the ability/means to run a you tube channel though. But we appreciate the guys who do, like psionic. you've jumped in to defend Lyle, who doesn't need it, you've stated you don't want to offend the pedal owner, who wouldn't be. got a back bone mate