Sonic's Nostalgia Problem
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มี.ค. 2018
- A lack of vision & incredible misinformation and misunderstanding - Not only has nostalgia served as a detriment to Sonic this past decade, there's also confusion the fandom spreads, and even the officials at SEGA believe, when some fans ask to reuse old game play styles as well. What this means is, some fans believe 'anything relating to the past shouldn't be done at all and the fans that ask for the Adventure style to return are hypocrites,' which is not true and false information. In this video, I debunk where Sonic fans get a bad rap and clarify where the justification for the demand of an old style returning is valid, but how nostalgia was used for Sonic these last several Sonic games isn't and how they're not the same.
Music:
Windy And Ripply - Sonic Adventure
Theme of E102r - Sonic Adventure
Egg Carrier - A Song That Keeps Us On The Move - Sonic Adventure
Metallic Madness Zone Act 2 - Sonic Mania
ZERO, the Chase-Master - Sonic Adventure - เกม
"We don't want to go back to the Adventure formula just to make the fans happy."
-2d sections in boost games
-sonic 4
-sonic Mania
-classic sonic
-rehashing levels
-green hill
-sonic Forces in its entirety
Iizuka-San, just say you're too afraid to actually try to make a 3D Sonic game again.
...You're right. He actually is. Because of Sonic '06 bearing the Adventure style of gameplay, he feels it's too risky.
Lucas M I like Iizuka but maybe he really is holding the series back
Link, the Hero of the Minish I wish he realized using 06 as a reason for writing off the gameplay style as a whole is a terrible idea/excuse. People always say the style shouldn't come back because of 06 while ignoring the fact that the game was in development hell because of the head leaving and corporate meddling causing the team to be split and rushed while also ignoring the fact that the previous games that used that style are popular.
I honestly wished they'd reboot the game. Like do a retelling fixing the gameplay and story and adding elements that are new or elements that were cut from the original game.
Bad games usually deserve a remake more than a good one in my opinion, especially if the previous in development version of it showed alot of promise.
Not only that. The guy doesn't know what to do, if anything. Bring in someone fresh.
Lizuka needs to understand what they want
The only Sonic Fan on TH-cam who criticizes nostalgia in Sonic Games. Good job, I am proud of your objectivity.
if sega keeps relying on nostalgia sonic will have no future or as the song open your heart would say
" if it don't stop there will be no future for us"
I know this video is 3 years old, but it'd be sooooo cool if Lizuka could see this, cuz he needs to wake the hell up.
How would switching between the spindash, boost, and 2d work with the story?
I honestly want a game like unleashed with its motion blur and beautiful stages while having not only brand new stages but new areas and characters, I want it to have multiple characters playable on different perspectives like the adventure games and 06
I’m just going to say that everyone in Sega, Nintendo, etc, are afraid of reviving things beyond the N64 and PS1.
dude the fan made game sonic omens is basically the game the sonic fandom want - its got new level designs, a new atmosphere, but still feels nostalgic, because sonic
Good video. But talking a little fast. Just some constructive criticism. Loved the video. Sonic Team has no idea what the fans want. Not the old zones, exactly what you said. Styles in a modern take and expanded upon. Recent comments that Iluzka made that there isnt room to grow with the Adventure and Boost games is just wrong. There is so much untapped potential there, Sonic Team just doesnt know how to do it.
I love how Sonic Team says that making Sonic Adventure 3 would “hold the series back”, but apparently remaking Green Hill Zone in every new game isn’t. Smh
i hate how there is no consistency. in forces theyre in green hill but the next stage is chemical plant. How?? That would mean he went from south to westward island
Yeah apparently making something new would hold a series back yet reusing the same thing over and over is considered progression?
ChristMEMEa V To be fair, they wanted to do something creative with Green Hill, the original concept art show us Green Hill being turned into a prision, to show how badly Eggman affected the world.
Its a very common trope in many diffetent stories to bring back an old location or character to go completely fuck it over, its called the Worf Effect. Dragon Ball has done this too.
Perhaps that by not making an Adventure 3 is because they see the adventure games as something that should have Big the Cat or other different playstyles that nobody liked. If there was a none-boost game that use the spindash in 3D, it would be called something different, kinda like Lost World.
Romhacker12
This always bugged me about Sonic Team recently, the lack of world building.
South Island and Westside wasn't on the map. The world is being destroyed and somehow G.U.N was no where to be mentioned at ALL. (Even Sonic Riders and 06 at least realized they existed.)
They could have AT LEAST make the world map look like the Unleashed one but nah.
The army of anthros is fine, but would it kill them to throw a couple of humans in there?
The fact that Shadow exists means the Ark exists...so why is Eggman the only human we see?
And where the hell are the chaos emeralds?
It's simple... Sonic Forces is a reboot. Thus removing humans.
What bothers me most is that the Sonic-focused Adventure gameplay never had a proper chance to grow and flourish under positive and confident management before it was completely scrapped
Sonic Team is way too eager to destroy whatever working foundation they start building in favor of unpolished, unfocused new territory. They're far too stubborn, impressionable, and lack a cohesive creative vision. The boost formula was going very well, so what'd they do? Completely reboot the gameplay for Lost World, and when they tried desperately to go back to what was well-received, they lost their focus entirely and Forces became a clunky mess as a result
I think Sonic Team is very much in need of fresh blood and young talent. Easier said than done of course, but the series will never have a focused and consistent quality if it keeps going the way it is. Something's gotta give
I tried the Adventure games recently. My biggest problem with them is that Sonic gets too little screen time. Everyone criticizes Unleash because less than half of the game is played as Sonic yet both Adventure games are guilty of doing the exact same.
I think it's a bigger problem in Adventure 2 because Sonic has only 6 stages. If they'd gone with their original plan of having only three playable characters with an even amount of stages spread out between them then there wouldn't be a problem.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having lots of other playable characters with their own playstyles. That adds depth and replay-ability and offers a fun new experience. As long as Sonic's storyline isn't interrupted to play as the other characters like in Adventure 2, and his levels are still built around his playstyle, and he has the same amount of levels as everyone else (at least 9-10) then there's no problem with him only being 1/6 of the game or however many characters there are.
I think the best way to do it is to use the Amigo system from 06. You have three main playable characters, but have brief moments with other characters in the levels which allows their fans to have fun playing as them without cluttering up the story with their own scenarios.
The problem with multiple playable characters comes when they start stealing the spotlight from the main character and that's exactly what SA2 did by giving every playstyle the same amount of levels. If you put both Sonic and Shadow together since they play the same, that's only 10 levels out about 30. SA1 did it better, there were multiple playstyles but Sonic had the most amount of levels, problem is there were so many different playstyles that Sonic still gets only about a third of the total levels in the game.
A game I think did multiple playable characters well was Sly 2. You got three characters to play as but Sly, the main protagonist, gets more than half of the missions in the game so he gets the most amount of focus while the other two charaters still get enough missions to don't come off as afterthoughts or stealing the spotlight.
I think each character should have the same amount of levels. It makes everyone feel more worth it. I don't think Sonic needs to have more screen time than the others, he just needs the same amount of screen time as them.
Although I think the best solution is to have three main characters and several minor playable characters in their levels. You get the best of both worlds that way.
"What's the most recurring vocabulary word in the sonic fandom?" Well there's edge, OC's, Fan fiction, "bad game", screw sonic o6 and boom, BIG THE CAT, adventure 3- Or nostalgia works too.
Don't forget "Mario".
Don’t forget “Silver is slow” and “Silver is the worst”
You know whats the same among all those things? they are fucking strawman arguments made by fucking idiots with no real facts. Excuse me for not believing people who think christein fucking chandler and a few problem individuals in the art community. Represent me and the entire fandom,should be listened to or acknowledged. Sub human freaks of nature like chris fuck and the problem deviant artists make up less then 1% of the fanbase. For these arguments these haters make,to work they must ignore the massive amounts of good fan work good artwork and good fan games that have been made.
Vally Valiant all I'm saying is that those are very common phrases in the sonic community. Are all pieces of art on deviantart bad just because it's sonic art? No of course not, that would be ridiculous. Are all fan games bad? Again No. Hell fan games are actually Somthing that sonic has a good reputation for! Look at sonic mania which became a official game it was so good! So no. They aren't all bad, I agree with you about that. But those are unfortunately many ways people who don't look into things (well apart from sonic boom and 06 sucking it doesn't take rocket science to figure that one out, and the game shadow the hedgehog being edgy) would describe sonic
Then why acknowledge them at all? They are fucking idoits who do not do research.
I basically agree with everything you just said. HOWEVER...
The only reason why I don't think making an Adventure 3 or Adventure style game is a good idea is simply because I don't trust Sonic Team enough to pull it off. Unless they hire developers who TRULY understand the adventure formula, physics, and atmosphere, then I can wait until they pull themselves together.
The Adventure identity is more often than not greatly overstated. There's a world of difference between the only two games. You can't just nail down a consistent formula to describe them - there's simply not enough. Their identity isn't as strong as say the classics. Many more people consider Heroes an Adventure game than the Advance trilogy classics.
With Sonic Team as "competent" as it is today we would get a "great" sequel to Sonic 06
Yeah after hearing some of the stuff Lizuka said and some of the design choices they have been doing. I don't think i can trust sega on an adventure style sonic.
Fans should do it. instead. Christian Whitehead did Mania, we need someone to do adventure style.
Kleyoni24 Yeah I suppose. I have no idea what Iizuka's plan is. Forces was undeniably attempting to capitalise on 99-07 fans and I'm not the one to say if it succeeded. As for the 'world of difference' I mean how specific some fans want the next release. Modern Sonic means nothing. One moment they were experimenting with new ideas in a new context the next it was old ideas in a new context.
Now they want Sonic games to be smaller scale, so when they do decide to put their foot on the rush development pedal the final game won't seem as incomplete. Maybe the pillars era will ease such pressures and Sonic can evolve - not just move around.
Honestly, if they knew how to design a level, how to program a physics engine, and had writers with brains, it wouldn't matter what style of game they made. Hell, boost is just a move. A move that has nothing to do with how Sonic controls otherwise. His control gets stiff and clunky sometimes because the physics are off and the levels are too restrictive. I personally think Adventure was a little too loose control wise, but the recent games are also a bit too stiff and definitely too automated. There's also no sense of momentum, unlike in the Adventure games, and to a lesser extent, Heroes. Ideally, they need something that strikes a balance. Nothing moving as fast as Sonic should be striking 90° angles like how you can in Adventure, but it would be better if you could move more smoothly than in recent games, with or without the drift.
"The Sonic Adventure Formula Will Hold The Series Back." That sounds like a cover-up to me. I think Iizuka really is afraid to relive the memories and backlash of Sonic 06. What Iizuka needs to realize is that game was made 12 years ago. Instead of learning from mistakes, they'd rather repress it. As Sonic would say, "That's No Good!"
Even though 06 was 12 years ago, the majority still mark it as one of the worst games ever made. I don't think that it is, but If that game never existed with it's development story, they probably would've stuck with the adventure formula.
Everyone and their grandmother still holds 06 against Sega and Sonic Team.
But sonic 06 wasn't hated for its formula. It was hated for being rushed and broken.
HeavyDonkeyKong
Exactly. It’s really the fact that the adventure formula was attached to a game where Sonic fell hard for the first time. No fault of the gameplay itself, it’s just people will never let go of 06.
Sega can't still be recalling from 06. It was a horrible game that trashed sonics reputation after a string of ok games but he can not still be recalling from that. Besides the game wasn't a total failure, it made platinum hits on the Xbox 360. If thats whats really going on its dumb.
MetaAxe 1456
Anything attached to 06 except it’s soundtrack is avoided at all costs.
06 is also a case where high game sales mean jack shit because of entire gaming community resents it with a passion.
Here's what I liked about Unleashed. The game wasn't afraid to try new things. The boost gameplay was fresh, well thought out and innovative, and the werehog gameplay while a big "wtf" was properly designed and well thought out as well. They didn't rely on nostalgia to make a good game, instead they just thought of an original idea and just went all out with it.
We are in an era now where we just need fresh and original ideas again. The boost/nostalgia era is over. It's just time to move on. Developers of Unleashed took steps forward, developers of Forces are scared to try new things.
RatchetSprite it’s funny you say that, because the franchise had tried many new things from 2005-2010, but many were claimed bad, while Mario was relying on same stuff, but many still like it (Galaxy was great and new in that time). Now it’s the other way around, and the claims are still the same.
Nabinani, no
Sonic 06 was basically an Adventure game clone, Shadow was a scrapped idea for SA2, and OP talked about Unleashed enough already. Unleashed is the only game where they actually tried *new* things.
Also, linear Galaxy was a huge change for 3D Mario games (which, up to that point, were always open-ended like 64 and Sunshine), and yeah, Galaxy 2 wasn't too original, but oh well, Nintendo was trying to cash in on something succesful, its not like thats something weird.
Now, Iizuka seems to really want to force 2D and muh nostalgia into every game, basically making every game feel the same (and making everyone angry).
Also, to be fair, Forces did try something new, but ultimately failed because WE NEED LESS 3D AND LESS GAMEPLAY
Burtłomiej ‘Kay...
Burtłomiej Forces did not try something new.
Classic Sonic? Done already.
Boost gameplay? Done already.
Green Hill/chemical plant/death egg? Done already.
OC characters? Ok. We're getting somewhere...
Concept? I guess, but it just ends up being generic and the same simplistic "stop eggman and you win" just like Colors and Generations. They had an idea in the announcement trailer, but didn't think it though.
So that's about 1 and a half out of 5 originality. Forces was not innovative.
RatchetSprite the Avatar would be a great concept if it wasnt just Modern Sonic but almost entirely 2D and actually had something unique to it
And yes, I was talking about the Avatar
If Sonic Generations was the only Sonic game to reuse old levels, that would be fine. Heck, they could have gone further with that concept than they did with more levels and classic and modern versions of other characters and their gameplay. It would have been great if Sega refined the boost gameplay and kept consistency with it, adding fun and new levels in later games. But it's NOT an anniversary anymore and Sega is refusing to leave what should have been a one-time thing.
Generations and Mania are the only games in my mind to use the classic levels right, the rest tend to be mixed.
Nostalgia Works You name matches this discussion so much that I can't stop laughing.
You know what ELSE should’ve been a one-timer? Adventure 1’s playstyle approach. It worked there because “the team” hadn’t been fully established in canon and the playstyles fit the characters and their goals in the story. Adventure 2 had no excuse for it. It should’ve gone straight back to the S3&K formula, albeit with different characters taking different stages as story-appropriate, which was the only thing from Adventure 1’s structure worth keeping.
Oooooh, excited to watch this one. Will edit this with my impressions afterwards. =P
So, I think the issue with Sonic's flavor of nostalgia is that they use actively use it as a means of marketing the game. To them, nostalgia is a weapon in the marketing arsenal, rather than something that they put into the game purely to surprise and delight. They're using appeals to nostalgia as a crutch as if they're not confident that a new Sonic game with new aesthetics can stand on its own and establish its own discrete legacy.
Let me give an example... In Zelda. When you stumble across something that is a reference to a past game, and it clicks in your head and you realize what you're looking at... that's a very genuine "oh that's from this one Zelda game!" experience. They didn't use that element to try to sell the game. They just put it in the game as a love letter to people who will recognize it.
In Mario Odyssey, when you go to Cascade Kingdom, you can find little 8bit sprites from Super Mario Bros embedded into the blocks of dirt, basically as little fossils. It's a surprise, and it brings you joy to see those neat touches in the game. But nothing in the game centers around those nostalgic elements. *They're incidental to the game, not fundamental.* Goombas are in every Mario game, but they're not ever leveraged as "nostalgia." They're just... a foundational part of Mario design, so they're constantly bringing them back.
Here's an example of great nostalgia in Sonic: Unlocking Green Hill Zone in Sonic Adventure 2. You get all the emblems and you're rewarded with a trip through memory lane. They didn't use the inclusion of that stage as a "feature" of the game. It's not a selling point. And if you don't follow gaming news, that can be a genuine moment of surprise.
If Sonic Team constantly bombards us with "REMEMBER SONIC'S HISTORY" then it's no longer special. Nostalgia should be exceptional, not the status quo. What Sonic Team needs to understand is that nostalgia is best leveraged, not for surface level aesthetics, but for the fundamental experience of playing something that FEELS like a game from our past. Bring back core GAMEPLAY elements from Sonic's history, because that's how you evolve the franchise. That's why Mario Odyssey works. It takes the core of a nostalgic game and builds on it, while sprinkling in surface-level nostalgia to surprise and delight.
Keep the elements from past games that are working and iterate on those elements, while discarding the rest.Don't constantly reinvent the wheel. Perfect it. If your first wheel is made of 8 sides and it functions but it feels a little rough, don't throw it away and try a triangle instead with a familiar coat of paint on it. Take that 8-sided wheel, chip away the parts that aren't smooth (like big the cat), and keep the rest. Hone it. Eventually you'll have a circle that rolls smoothly. THEN you can change out the rims for nicer ones or add fancy spinners and whatnot.
This was a weird metaphor.
Artsy Omni?
Man, all kinds of tubers are flocking to this channel.
Yea I totally agree.
Many people will dismiss the nostalgia problem with Sonic by saying how other games to the same. But the way I see it is that many games use nostalgia as a supplement to their game, while current sonic games tend to use it as building material, which makes a shaky structure at best.
“Say it with me, nosta-“ **buffers**
the only nostalgia thing i want back from a past sonic game is the chao garden.
Seriously, how is there no Spin-off for that?
Troy fuck that waste of time
theres fan game for that
A real game not fan made. my computer is a piece of shit to run games and i have no money to get a new one plus some people want to play on a system like me. so a chao base game or sonic game with it as a option not requirement plus i have a game just in case my internet goes out or we move at some point in time
it can be an option not a requirement to do it in the game.
If the adventure style does come back, which I would like very much, please do not throw in 2D sections.
Oh, and please bring back other playable characters! Just playing as Sonic can get boring.
Exactly Sonic is way too overused, I don't like playing as Sonic these days, he's been made too unlikeable in English. Knuckles, Shadow, Blaze, Tails, & Cream are characters that would all be fun to play as.
WaterKirby1994 Lose points for leaving off Amy, but get them back for suggesting Cream. She’s WOEFULLY underexplored.
Better be something like this:
Sonic: adventure style with some modern things with little 2d stages.
Tails:platformer with little puzzles and little running sections with sometimes cliffs to use his fly ablity
Knuckles:exploration,little fighting sections and running sections
"All play like sonic but with different gameplay styles"
@@Izhen_UwU NO 2D
@@jdawson7877 just a little 2d section.
One of the reasons why I hate Sonic Forces. They bring in nostalgic things for no reason other than the sake of nostalgia. Unless it has a point to the story, it should not be here. The only game that understood this was Metal Gear Solid 4, which did nostalgia right.
I think Super Mario Odyssey and Sonic Mania did nostalgia pretty well to, tbh. I loved all of the little Easter Eggs and throwbacks in both of those two games.
I can’t help but agree, Mania And Generations Did have a reason for sonic too go through the old Zones again
Sonic forces isn’t canon to me
@@train4292 generations did mania didnt
Iizuka: This is Green Hill Zone!
Literally everyone: Iizuka, this is the 7th week in a row that you've shown Green Hill Zone in class.
I never get tired of watching sonic content on this channel. Don't stop making sonic videos like these. Your thoughts and opinions are always spot on when it comes to any topic dealing with the sonic series.
It's hindered the series for years now with this "Meta Era". The only way Sonic Team could ever hope to move the series forward is to focus on the core problems of 3D Sonic and figure out a formula that can finally leave those problems behind. They won't get that by forcing Classic Sonic in everything.
The people who are doing that are honestly being stupid. Not only are they in the wrong but they're also wrong.
It'll probably happen. But even if it does, there's no reason for me to actually care.
You still shouldn't have to go through that. Even if you can shrug it off it's still a mean thing to do over something that has no reason to have upset them.
Monkey D. "Straw Hat" Luffy you actually make a good point.
Wait, did i really just say that?
It still sounded like a backhanded insult. It's like you're implying it's shocking for him to be right because you don't like him.
At this point, I would welcome the Adventure formula back with open arms. If they just ditch the nostalgia and focus on new originality concerning level design, gameplay, story and all of the above, we'll be good to go. Hell, put the Chao Garden in. I would love to see an Adventure-style game again.
To you people "nostalgia" means all sonic games that are not 3d and boost are retarded nostalgia and must be disavowed and dropped. Thats equally as retarded as the people saying all 3d sonic games must be stopped. Its almost the same as the sjw left vs the alt right. Both sides are equally fucking retarded
What's wrong with getting another Egg Carrier with Sky Deck or another level that feels like Metal Harbor, or returning to the Space Colony Ark again for another Crazy Gadget? Or if Eggman returned to that Pyramid he used as a base? Adventure onward games barely get nostalgia that Sonic 1-3K seem to get so much of. New levels mixed in would be nice though, at least Forces tried, although the Generations stuff held it back. Agreed we need Chao World to return with at least 10 Gardens & a return to the Adventure Style.
Ya see it doesn’t bother me but it’s so oversaturated it just needs to stop. If you’re gonna use nostalgia, do it right. (Example: 2D sections in Odyssey. They’re a neat callback but never overstay their welcome).
At the beginning I swear you were about to say Green Hill
Hoi, Temmie!
how do i retweet a video
Iizuki: Returning to Adventure would hold the series back, we need to forge into the future rather than clinging to the franchise's past.
Also Iizuka: Green hill. Green hill in everything.
Generations I can excuse for reusing old levels, it was an anniversary celebration. Mania... Less so, but ok I guess. Whitehead's pitch iirc was all new in the style of the Genesis games both in look and mechanics which I think is why it annoys me as much as it does, but he was able to run with it and do good things with it, I genuinely laughed when I found myself playing Mean Bean Machine as a boss fight. Everything else? ...Why...
(I'm also wondering if we got an all new game from the Mania team if they'd feel free to be more experimental with the structure like losing the lives or doing more stuff like putting hidden levels in along the lines of how Hidden Palace is hidden in the iOS Sonic 2 remake, but that feels less relevant)
+Gizensha Fox
You legit didnt like ANYTHING other then that one "boss fight"...no love for ANYTHING else that game did? Sorry to say you are in the minority . Your idea of no fucking LIVES in an old school sonic game is also bullshit,and makes me think you're a troll...Either that or you must be from the slap on the wrist "death doesn't matter because ill just restart" call of duty crowd..thus i'm assuming your a millennial child. which makes your oppinen even less relevant... Old school sonic games did not slap you on the wrist when you fucked up,they forced you to fucking LEARN HOW TO PLAY. You got the save system in sonic mania. That is more then enough,removing lives and turning it into a respawn exactly where i died like nothing happened,game is the stupidest fucking thing i think i've read in this comment section.
They can always give you the option to turn the respawn off so you can choose to play with lives or not. It doesn't mean is not making you learn how to play the game. Just because you don't have lives doesn't mean you don't have to learn the game to complete the game.
Really, game overs should just send you back to the beginning of the ACT IMO. Not the entire Zone, and DEFINETLY NOT make you restart THE ENTIRE VIDEO GAME ALL OVER AGAIN.
That's why sonic mania gave you the save system that is LEGIT EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST ASKED FOR. Don't ignore facts if you're trying to shut me down.
I never said I was trying to shut you down.
Your still ignoring that particular fact however. The fact that the save system in mania is exactly what your asking for.
This is my new favorite Sonic related video. I absolutely hate the constant nostalgia pandering. A HUGE reason why I wasn't all that hyped for Mania and Forces.
I really do hope Mania Plus' encore mode changes things up a lot.
2D games are not the problom....the reuse of levels is...
Vally Valiant When did I say 2D games are the problem?
Thats what most people who use the anti nastolgia strawman often meen. Its horseshoe theory. people bitched about the 3d games saying they should be removed. Now people are bitching that anything 2D is abhorrent and pandering. This despite the fact that modern sonic has 2d sections.
Vally Valiant Well I don't think 2D games are the problem. I had a little enjoyment with Mania and 4 Episode 2. What I do dislike though is using a lot of 2D in Modern games to try and have a classic era feel. Especially with Lost World and Forces. I'd rather have a separate Classic Sonic series for 2D gameplay and let Modern Sonic be fully 3D again. The problems I have with nostalgia I refer to is all addressed in the video.
The problem is the level design. Better level design needs to be made yes. I'm not going to declare all 2d abhorrent garbage that needs to be removed. I enjoyed the few 3d games i played but i do not think 2d movement has to be removed entirely. Nor am I going to disavow all 2D games to be abhorrent garbage. The problom is horseshoe theory has struck here. It use to be "proper" to not give any 3d sonic games a chanch..now the the horseshoe has been flung the other way and its "proper" to hate anything regarding 2D even if you point out that 2D can work with new levels done right. The reuse of levels is the problom not gameplay style.
This guy sure as hell can make a discussion video!
I think a lot of this comes from the foundational element of Sega constantly struggling to get a full blown (speed/momentum based) 3D Sonic title without needing crutches to pad out the game. The reliance on nostalgia and specifically Classic Sonic is just the most recent symptom of a larger issue of never quite nailing the core game dynamic that's then expanded on in succeeding entries like Nintendo did with the 3D games after Mario 64.
Sonic's games changed, but the use of various character's gameplay styles back in the Adventure days may have hampered the abilities of the designers to better build upon the foundation of Sonic's specific gameplay that SA1 built. It threw in more characters and more styles and when that strategy ultimate cracked via Sonic 06 and the Werehog sections in Unleashed prove divisive, they eventually settled on 2D sections and/or Classic Sonic to make the modern games work in a practical sense.
The main titles have made some leaps forward (rail grinding in SA2, boost in Unleashed, streamlined alternate routes in Generations) yet the franchise as a whole still feels like it hasn't evolved as much as it should because Sega's insistence on patching together the 3D games with various elements hinders its chance at grow outward from the core gameplay blueprint of what a Sonic in three dimensions is.
What’s funny is that Nintendo gets it right, usually kept as a small secret or Easter egg, world 1-1 hasn’t appeared in every Mario game like green hill zone has in the Sonic games (haven’t played much Sonic I might try out some of the games in the future), of course it was in the NDC theater in Odyssey most recently but that’s what something like that should be delegated to, a secret room and/or and Easter egg. We want the future Mario and Sonic games to be unique rather than sticking to reusing or remixing levels.
Yeah, Odyssey has just the right amount of 2D seconds that you absolutely HAVE to do. The rest are optional and get very challenging which is awesome. They’re kind of like little breaks in the gameplay, but if you’re pretty good at the different jumps, you can skip some of them for speedrunning purposes. Also I love how much the world opens up after the short story is finished. There’s so much to do by returning to each world, and I think Sega needs to focus on fleshing our new stages. Quality over quantity.
I agree with everything about this video. I loved Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colors because of the unique personality those games had, Sonic Generations was a nice trip through memory lane, but that was good enough.
Sonic Lost world felt souless. And we didnt need to revisit past stages for Sonic Mania AND Sonic Forces AGAIN.
Sonic Generations also felt soulless to me, they weren't even trying as there were barely any levels. Just here take Classic Sonic & you'll have 2 for the price of 1. We could have gotten characters who weren't Sonic, we could have gotten tons of stages & Black Doom as a boss, barely a trip through memory lane if you ask me.
Mania did everything right that Generations failed at, with Forces at least Green Hill was a desert now.
+WaterKirby1994 I don’t think Generations was soulless at all. I found the game lots of fun with the open level design, the Modern Sonic gameplay was perfectly from Unleashed and Colors, and Classic Sonic gameplay wasn’t that bad either. Plus, it was cool seeing some references of the past, and returning of old stages (for when it came out at least), even though I wish it did it more.
I agree that Mania was a better game though.
Still heavily lacking for fans of the dreamcast era, City Escape didn't even have it's feeling captured just butchered by Classic & Modern in different ways. We were left with it being reduced to just another city level thrown into the game for little reason. Sonic Team started getting lazy when making Generations & you can really tell when looking at the game thoroughly, then comparing it to certain past games.
Generations was even more of a slap in the face considering the comment made to explain why we weren't getting Adventure 3. We could have gotten more playable characters, we could have gotten DLC for more stages. Fans did more for the game through mods than Sonic Team even attempted.
WaterKirby1994
I can see your point, I admit I mainly liked Generations because of nastalgia and at the time, it was the only new classic sonic experience after Sonic 4 done better.
I just feel Lost World and Forces were way worse in many ways.
Lost world had gimmicky gameplay with aesthetics and themes more generic than a new super mario game. (Green plains, 2nd level dessert, generice ice, sky and final lava level) The story was even more stereotypical and bland. Everything about that game felt like a factory produced unoriginal shell. At least the level design was ok. But just like the new CoD or New super Mario, thats to be expected.
Forces I admit I was kind of dissapointed from the begining. The modern and classic levels got worse and are way too short. And the entire game from its story and levels felt like pandering, which is not something they should do after Generations, and at the same time as Mania.
The only thing I kind of liked was the phantom ruby, but that was because of the potential it had and the character creation.
I think the last fully original sonic game was colors atleast in level themes because there is no sign of green hill or chemical plant and we have a actually good water level, that shows that colors was trying to be its own thing, I love generations as much as the next guy, and that had an excuse to use old levels due to what kind of game it is, then lost world used a green hill type level, that was pushing it and the forces came out and that was WAY too nostalgia pandering, I am a huge colors fan, but I am getting sick and tired of sega trying to reference it and you can imagine how tired I was when I heard that planet wisp was gonna be in TSR but that game had an excuse because that was a kart racer, a fun one at that, so sega, please try to make original stage designs in your next sonic game, make some levels that are original like colors and unleashed, just please don’t use green hill for the millionth time.
You made some BOLD statements towards the end there. Well done! I agree that nostalgia holds a lot of things back, with all these suggestions - from fans and developers alike - to "bring back this game/character/play-style." It works in some settings, but the frequency with which nostalgia is being abused nowadays is getting annoying, in my opinion.
If Sonic Team and Iizuka don't bring back the adventure formula in one shape or form and continue to shun the fully 3D gameplay experience, the Sonic Series will never have its truly established formula in 3D. This is coming from a Boost formula fan. The boost games are good but have stiff, heavy, and unbalanced 3D sonic. Only the adventure style games has been proven to show Sonic playable in a 3d landscape.
Instant subscribe. It’s always nice to see someone recognize how much unfulfilled potential the Adventure gameplay style has. The boost isn’t terrible, but it just doesn’t have the same amount of potential to offer as the Adventure style does.
The Adventure era also had peak characterizations for many of the characters in my opinion (Remember when Tails was a good character?) There are also storytelling gems from this era such as Gamma’s story.
Anyway, sad to see all the good the Adventure era has to offer be brushed off. Hopefully the success of Mario Odyssey and the reception of Forces will wake Sonic Team up.
I'm feeling nostalgic for Shadow the hedgehog 2005!
Sega, *Where is my Shadow The Hedgehog Generations?* Edgy Shadow meets Edgy Shadow!
Like I've said before, get this man on Sega!
Sean Wilson I've already sent the video to the Sonic TH-cam channel, but I don't think it's gonna help, plus I'm not sure if I did it right for them to see it
You made some really great points and you explained what a lot of the fans who want the adventure style gameplay back have been trying to say. As someone who wants the Adventure style to come back, the main thing I want from the Dreamcast era of Sonic is just Sonic's overall movement. I liked how controlling Sonic felt in those games up until Heroes where they totally botched his movement (making him feel slippery). The main issue I have with modern 3D Sonic games is how stiff Sonic feels in movement. Now yes, it's mostly because the levels are much more straight-forward and they wanted to put more emphasis on the boost feature and I understand that but I just wish they could've found some middle-ground for said Boost mechanic and the movement feeling Sonic had in the Adventure games.
The one time the adventure styled gameplay could've been expanded was a total flop in Sonic 06 but that was just due to bad game design and rushed development more than anything. If there was more care and refinement put into the gameplay of that game, it would've definitely lived up to the Adventure games before it.
That's all it comes down to in my head. Just more expansion of the Adventure gameplay. Make Sonic feel fluid again and not stiff as a board. We don't need to replay old levels again, we're all for new levels, Sonic Mania has proved just that with how positive their new levels were received. It's just sad that the solution is so simple but Sonic Team just seems to refuse it.
I hear that Sonic Mania had a few fans of the classic Sonic era help develop the game and if that's true, that explains why Mania was so successful. Because these fans knew what made classic Sonic so fun and memorable and translated these elements into the new game and it ended up paying off in the end. I feel that it's time the 3D Adventure Sonic fans got the same treatment. Hire one or three fans of the Adventure games who know a little bit about game design and enough about what made the Adventure games so successful and let them help for a new game. I'm willing to bet it'll pay off just like Mania did.
Anyway, great video, agree 110%
“It’s not nostalgia if it’s now the norm.”
-some guy I forgot the name of
You literally hit every nail, dude 👏👏 Well done
For as much as Mania is my second favriote Sonic game,the real shame is that if it had been all orginal stages it would have been easily the best Sonic game ever made.The orginal stages in Mania are so well done that they should be recognized as Classics
This gets worse with Forces as Forces does not have great level design to fall back on.I saw some concept art of Green Hill in Forces and I really liked it.It showed what Green Hill would be like if Eggman took over and was a perfect framing device for what stages in Forces,returning or new should have looked like.However it wasn’t like that,and the way Forces Story was it made the story of Mania way more convulted and contrived than needed
Amazing video man! As a fan of both Classic and Modern eras, I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. As for how I feel about nostalgia for Sonic, It's a dead word for the series to me now. Sega have abused nostalgia for Sonic to the point where it isn't nostalgic anymore or, as another youtuber accurately put it: "It's NOT nostalgia if it's now the norm!" I'll admit that I enjoyed Mania for what it was but it (and Forces) had a glaring issue to me! The reused levels. As fun as the new ideas in old locations were, it doesn't change the fact that we've already been to these places before and Sonic Mania's reusing of "Classic Era" levels and assets would be fine but there's one problem... SONIC GENERATIONS ALREADY DID THAT! Mania should have been a fully original stand alone Classic Sonic game from start to finish and to quickly repeat myself, if Sega wanted to put SO much focus on remixing old levels... THAT'S WHAT SONIC GENERATIONS WAS FOR!
That game was BEGGING for DLC. Just imagine what they could have done with things more playable classic/modern characters, more levels, and even a SATURN Era for goodness sake! When it comes to level ideas, (spin-offs or not) they could have simply taken things from Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic R and even the canceled Sonic X-treme for it. (Heck in some ways, that's what Lost World SHOULD have been) and don't even get me started on the 3DS port, Game Gear era, Advance era, Rush/Rivals era. Talk about a missed opportunity! It's too late for that now though. They had a golden opportunity with Generations and they squandered it!
I personally believe that Nostalgia itself isn't a bad problem but the way that Sega is applying it is... Revisiting old ideas doesn't seem that bad but Sega just over uses them... how interesting would it be if they brought back other zones that have seemingly been forgotten without shouting nostalgia in our faces.
I love the people like you who actually explain and expand on Sonic and it's problems, presenting solutions and giving an in depth explanation on how it could fix the issues. I don't see these kind of videos from other channels but god when i do i just love it. Keep up the amazing work.
This video was filled with nothing but the TRUTH!!! Great vid bud keep it up!
To me, I wouldn't mind the Adventure Formula to return either.
My concern with bringing it back is the high demand itself. Considering the Sonic Fanbase, with some acting like pricks, Sonic Team has very little room to fuck up. If there's one thing wrong, no matter how minor, dedicated fans will lose their shit. Not just from a nostalgic perspective, but from their overall preference.
And it's not just gameplay either, story to. Archie fanboys can be really toxic about game stories and call others out for supporting anti-consumerism.
SA1 and 2 need to be remade like Crash and the N' Sane Trilogy.
I dont want adventure to be a trilogy because it would be forced in the timeline like sonic 4 and mania
Romhacker12
I never said make SA3.
That is honestly the best and safest route.
Like Sonic Adventure Trilogy
With a remake of sonic adventure, sonic adventure 2 and.... Sonic... 2006..
Ya i admit, i would like a remake of sonic 06!
PS: sorry my English
Edit: with HD of corse!
XD
I prefer to call it a duology to be honest.
Yeah I do say that future games should cut down on re using old levels.
I can pardon Generations and Mania as both use the classic levels to a advantage but not forces.
Well for generations and mania, the classic-style gameplay would be necessary, while at the same time, using it as their advantage, which worked out in the end. So I can say that you’re right. (Forces was totally the opposite of what I said)
exactly . unleashed had exactly 0 old Levels , 06 had exactly 0 too , even fucking Lost Worlds and rise of lyric didnt reuse levels like generations and forces did
i havent played them but i dont think the 7 rings and the knight game had Greenhillzone and chemical plant either
if the next sonic game uses greenhillzone again i wont buy it , i want a new game not a reskin ( theres modding anyway , if you can mod unleashed levels into generations you should be able to mod any new sonic game into forces if it just uses the same engine and levels anyway
While the level design is different Wave Ocean definitely feels like a tribute to Emerald Coast. Other than though all the levels are completely original.
ah didnt know that , sry
Also, Sonic Adventure had Ice Cap from Sonic 3 in it.
Nostalgia was never the problem with Sonic, context is.
Take a look back to Sonic Colours and Generations compared to what came before them with most of the mid-generation PS2/XBOX/Dreamcast whatever games and you'll notice that quite a bit of the franchises internal logic went out the window as Sonic Team slowly started edging away from a lot of pre-established elements of Sonic's World (I.E G.U.N, solid geographical locations on Earth like Station Square, Westopolis, Holoska, ETC...) and instead started getting incredibly vague about things.
"Look Tails, we're on Baldy McNosehair's base in The Lost Hex"
What is the Lost Hex? Who are the Zeti? Why should I care? No reason, there just there because Video Game villain, go kill them now VIdeo game man.
You could argue that a lot of Sonic's story during the Dreamcast Era was poorly told or had plot holes and all that but the one thing it had to its credit that the Modern Era doesn't is the fact that it bothered to set up a consistent world and history for Sonic, even despite fans throwing a tantrum over Sonic living among realistic humans and getting involved in Goverment Conspiracies and Ancient legends of Water Gods and Demonic Aliens.
The kind of thing that had fans at the time screaming "Oh no! Dark and Edgy! CRINGE!!!! Sonic is for kids who can't handle the dark and edginess because colourful cartoon animals" (They say despite the era also having levity thanks to games like Sonic Heroes, Sonic Riders and the Sonic Rush games being right alongside the so called 'Dark Age of Sonic)
It seems like after Sonic 06 became the main catalyst for "This is why Sonic the Hedgehog is flawed and sucks, it should be simple like the good old Mega Drive days just like my childhood"
And when you remember that this was on the cusp of the 8-Bit nostalgia revival that began around 2008 I think we all know where this is headed.
People wanted a simpler Sonic because most of the fans are still so adverse to the idea of Sonic even having a story or a complex world out of fear that it would lead to another Sonic 06 to the point where I think even the Japanese Sonic Team realize "if we make another one of these people are gonna be pissed"
I don't blame Izuka for thinking that Sonic Adventure 3 wouldn't "advance the series" given that if you've seen any review of Sonic Adventure or Adventure 2 in recent years the most common complaint is
"Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 just aren't good games anymore, I only want Sonic and Shadow's gameplay styles and the rest can go fuck themselves, they aged terribly and your just blinded by nostalgia, why do people even like these games, I mean after all they had a gameplay style that lead to Sonic 06 and we don't want anything like THAT again now would we Sonic Team HMMMMMM?"
Its this passive aggressive mindset from people that bugs me whenever people say that want an Adventure 3, because a Sonic Adventure gameplay style would ostensibly mean you WANT the return of the Mech shooting or Treasure Hunting stages but instead fans only want the speed gameplay with other characters being Yellow Sonic or Red Sonic or Black Sonic or Pink Sonic.
It rings hollow to me that most fans want a game that complies with their grocery list of wants and desires for their 'perfect' Sonic game which leaves me cynical if all a new Adventure game is gonna be is a list of references meant to appeal to fans but stripped of their context and meaning.
"Look! its Shadow! Why is he here? I dunno, people like him... I guess"
Its the exact same reason why people bitched about Tails being a cowardly pansy in Sonic Forces when Chaos - attacked him, people wanted to see him kick some ass and be the confident little fox boy he became at the end of Sonic Adventure, not cowering in fear so Sonic can save him.
Its not even a retcon or anything of the same ilk as "Oh no, it wasn't an accident aboard the ARK with the Biolizard that caused G.U.N to raid and kill Maria, it was actually all Black Doom's fault that Shadow was created" but instead an outright ignorance to continuity or the weight carried by the series's character development.
And its not just Tails, it rings true through Knuckles going from stoic, anti-social Emerald Guardian to a bumbling overconfident doofus and whatever Animefangirl/blandlady/mehI'mtoolazytowritecharacters flavor of the week Amy's personality is.
Sure gameplay is the most important aspect of a video game and refining gameplay mechanics alongside technical aspects like graphics, animations, voice acting/voice direction and all of that are important to make sure everything has a solid support structure.
But if the story and foundation of your digital world is so fucking wafer thin, then why should I care?
Its the big reason why I couldn't care less about Mario despite the stellar quality of his games, sure the gameplay is all functional and everything exists to be a solidly designed video game in its most concise nature, but if I don't care about what's going on in the story and what effect it has on the world at large then quite frankly outside of a "Well that killed a good 20 minutes of time" I'm not very invested in why I should keep playing outside of mild amusement.
Granted I already foresee the arguments of "Its not about story it's about gameplay shut up!/Sonic has bad stories/Edginess makes Sonic RUINED FOREVER!" but strip away the context of the world, the characters, the story and all your left with is video game man doing video game things.
You want the player to feel like Sonic? Then actually make them BELIEVE that they are in Sonic's shoes and that what they're doing in the game actually matters within the internal logic of Sonic's universe.
But I sincerely doubt we're ever gonna be getting anything close to that since all people rave on about is gameplay regarding the Sonic series so feel free to expect a Sonic Adventure Mania coming soon.
I hope you enjoy Sonic emulating the shell but not the core essence of his past adventures.
I agree with everything except the part about Mario. I don't think that Mario needs a good story to be a good game, but there are some story driven Mario games out there (like Paper Mario and M&L). What you said about the close minded Sonic fans who hate the Adventure formula just because it could lead to another 06 I agree with. Serious story =/= a terrible story. If the Adventure formula could lead to another 06, *another boost game could lead to another Forces.* Enough with the Baldy Nosehair. Enough with the fear of trying new things. It's time for Sonic to come out of his shell.
Holy tits, Skully. That was an entire video worth of words right there. Lol.
I've read all of it, and i couldn't agree more. Especially when they threw everything established out of the window with Colors. (Unleashed did still have a lot of aspects from the games before continuity and gameplay wise, like really world eras and upgrades.)
I also want to point out that everyone's character got flanderized like nothing else.
At first, Sonic was a energetic and cool Hedgehog, he was more calm in Unleashed, probably because of the premise of the game, but when Colors came out, he became an obnoxious douche with horrible jokes.
And Tails was at first was just a little boy who's pretty strong for who he is and he's good at mechanics. But again, when Colors rolled around, he was a Nerd instead, doing nothing to help Sonic, AT ALL. He's just sitting around doing nothing. And he just gets scared when a enemy he can clearly defeat is next to him. (It's understandable in Unleashed, again. Getting ganged up on multiple monsters include a Huge one would be scared. And he at least flies away, rather then sit there with his hands covering his head, doing nothing.)
Knuckles, like you said, was first a Lonely, cool and chill emerald hunter to a screaming idiot when Shadow and 06 came around to a doofus when we first got to see Knuckles in Generations, then in Forces he sounds too forced that you can't take him seriously, no pun intended.
Amy went from just a girl liking Sonic and wanting to be independent in SA1 and SA2, to finally getting independent in Heroes, to being a crazy stalker since Shadow/06, to being a smartass in Boom.
Shadow went from a confused villain in SA2, when he finally became good in the end of the game, to being confused to still being a good guy and then it all went downhill in his own game. He became... Ugh, ''edgy''.
Eggman was at first was a evil doctor, to a lighthearted joke in Colors onwards. (Huh, every character got wrecked by the writers since Colors. No wonder i despise Colors so much.)
And more characters got flanderized too. These are just the main examples.
And story wise/the continuity... Again, Colors wrecked it. Colors had nothing going for it, with stupid jokes, horrible lines and forced dialogue, Lost world is so vague really didn't expand on anything nor does it explain everything going on and Forces is just a mess, with forced dialogue and hysterical moments. It speaks for itself.
But i want to talk about Generations. The entire point and premise of Generations was basically dead at arrival because it has 2 Sonic's in it. I'll explain that soon. The ''story'' is bland, pointless and so empty with NOTHING explained! How did the Time eater come to be? How did Eggman take advantage of it? Why does he exist and why should i care?
The thing that bugs me to no end is that Classic Sonic is in the game. Not because of nostalgia being used or anything, no, it's the fact that the are 2 different Sonic designs to being with. Let me explain. The reason Modern Sonic got created in the first place is for Sonic to look more natural in 3D. It's the same Sonic. It isn't a younger/older Sonic, no, he is representing the same character at the same age. Sonic would look to chubby and weird in 3D, especially with the rather limited 3D for games back then.
But now... we got Classic Sonic in 3D. So... can ANYONE explain to me what purpose Modern Sonic has? I mean, Classic Sonic still looks weird in 3D, but there shouldn't be 2 Sonic's. There should not be a ''Classic'' or a ''Modern'' Sonic. There should be just... Sonic. Same goes for Tails, Knuckles and also for every other character.
Also, the dialogue of the game is told like a kids cartoon. Look how childish this cutscene is being told: th-cam.com/video/_2tIbAhhpxI/w-d-xo.html
Look at that cutscene. The dialogue is delivered like it's for little kids. It's something you would hear in Dora or something. Every cutscene in the game is like this. And i hate how the 2 Sonic's reacted like it was shocking after the 2 Tails' reacted to it. It's clear that you are time traveling! Don't act so surprised. Sonic said nothing about Eggman destroying half of the moon in SA2 or shattering the earth into pieces in Unleashed, yet gets surprised by something everyone can know for themselves.
This comment is as big as yours, so i'll stop here. Though i do have more things to say, i think everyone gets the point.
I concur, brother. I concur.
Weren't the writers for Colours and Lost World the guys from Happy Tree Friends, who also don't like Sonic?
The Adventure gameplay is needed for this troublesome franchise.
One thing I would like to address as well is the style of story of the adventure era. That's something that should be brought back too. And not out of nostalgia. Just from the fact that all the characters were extremely likable and we'll written. And it was so nice to be able to take an action series so seriously. I'm not saying they can't have the fun light hearted games once in a while, but the Sonic narrative and lore really flourishes when it takes itself a lot more seriously and a lot less meta.
Chao Garden...
best part of the adventure games, obviously. lol
I await the day that we get another Sonic game that doesn't use nostalgia as a crutch.
I don't remember who said this quote but
"Even after 25 years Sonic is still stuck in Green Hill Zone."
This was a really good video. I usually pass these off within the first couple minutes but you kept me hooked with very solid points and I agree all around. I loved Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 and I definitely would love to have the gameplay style return with something new and fresh- it's something I believe the Sonic Team has been lacking and ignoring lately. The game that was going to bring back that style was the scrapped game, "Sonic Synergy" which is known today as, "Sonic Boom". This game was going to have the adventure style gameplay that enforced working together as a team and was even going to have CHAO WORLD. Yet the concept was scrapped completely because of the limitations of the Wii U... All-in-All I hope they don't give up on the Sonic Adventure formula. Great vid, really enjoyed it.
I had a good feeling about this video when I seen it in my suggested and I definitely enjoyed it. You’ve gained a new sub. I fear for Iizuka at times. The guy saved the franchise and was responsible for the boost trilogy which where a bunch of games I really enjoyed and Lost World which I liked but isn’t for everyone. I won’t fault them for trying something new(besides the aesthetics) but many of his decisions and things he says kinda worry me. Classic Sonic being from another dimension is just stupid and returning as a crutch for Forces was a terrible idea. But his comments on returning to the Adventure formula really annoy me. There’s a lot of untapped potential there. Especially as we are in a bit of a renaissance of 3D Platformers, with Mania satisfying the classic fans I think it’s time to appeal to the fans of Adventure and give the fanbase something to be excited about. I can respect him not making an Adventure type game if he’s not passionate about it, so he should find people that are and let them make it.
Imo Sonic Mania obviously would have been better if their were less returning stages. What bothers me more is that they decided to not only pander nostalgia more, but bring back stages that literally nobody likes and are overused. GREEN HILL, CHEMICAL PLANT, OIL OCEAN??? FR? GIMME MYSTIC CAVE, ICE CAP ZONE, OR STARLIGHT ZONE, HECK EVEN SPRING YARD ZONE. We had chemical plant and green hill in generations already, and nobody from what I heard likes Oil Ocean zone. Really just a lowkey copy of chemical plant imo.
R.J.
From what I heard, Oil Ocean was actually put in because it was Christian Whiteheads favorite Zone, so it was more of a personal thing, which I can get behind, we all have our own personal favorites after all.
I would of preferred it if emerald hill was the starting level to mania since most of the levels in that game pretty much takes place on westside island. Although the reused levels was Iizuka's idea so whitehead is not to blame.
As someone who never played any of the Classic Sonics, like ever, the nostalgia aspect of Mania felt too "in your face" and intrusive to me. There were so many parts that were practically screaming "Remember this? Remember this?!" No, I don't remember this because I never played the classics.
That part in chemical plant were the water rises was very annoying and came off to me as really terrible and cheap level design when I first saw it, turns out the classic Chemical Plant used that so they brought it back even though apparently everyone hated that segment. Why do they keep bringing back that segment if no one likes it? Even Forces had it.
You: What's the most reoccurring vocabulary word in the Sonic fandom?
Answer: MEMES
+SuperZombieBros
Unfortunately, yes.
Sonic is too slow to escape nostalgia.
The most used words in Sonic are Green hill zone and Classic Sonic
Nostalgia is definitly a problem with Sonic right now. It's to the point that both Classic and Modern Sonic can't live without their past adventures.
Mario suffered from the same thing. throughout the Wii U/3DS era. the main series, Mario and Luigi and Paper Mario relied on traditional Mario trope levels and themes from the 2D games. Paper Mario got it the worst with Sticker Star
Oh yeah...That happened quite a lot on the 3DS as well in its later years.
We *never* speak about that terrible Paper Mario game.
Lucas M. Yeah, that's why there's hundreds of rant videos bitching about it and it's sequel. Although I will defend Color Splash because that was a pretty decent improvement.
Lucas M Fuck off, anyone can talk about Sticker Star.
Cutie & Friends Adventures Ow the edge
At least with Sonic Mania the point was it was a nostalgia trip. They at least did something new with the returning zones that the game had by changing the designs up quite a bit to where they felt new. Hey maybe if we're lucky Sonic Mania Plus will have new zones? Eh?
SuperMarioT Oooh nice. Btw you just earned a sub out of us. You are so on point with this video especially with people claiming nostalgia is why people hate the last few Paper Mario games. Hey do you think that some of the same people who worked on Super Mario Odyssey could do the same thing for Paper Mario? Like if Yoshiaki Koizumi is involved with instead of Miyamoto and the director of the past few games aren't involved?
Vidya Bros. You just gave me an idea it's very unlikely but what if developers from nintendo transferred over to sega and started making sonic games it may not necessarily fix the problem but it would be something positive at the very least.
That's not out of the realm possibility, but right now, it seems that is happening backwards.
Manuel Alberto Romero yeah I know finding out that most of the past members of sonic team left was very insightful.
Mulik Goodwin Oh damn how have we not thought about that before? Okay I kind of want that now.
This was a good watch. I agree with evolving familiar gameplay styles in new worlds. I overall did enjoy Mania; especially when original levels were brought in. Reusing Green Hill and Chemical Plant (in that exact order like in Generations and Forces), though, is where I felt like it was dragging. I'd love a Classic style game that has 100% new stages and boss fights. But more than ever, a successor to the Adventure games that isn't cheap fan service with repeated popular stages, but a faithful advancement to this series. I love City Escape to death, but I don't need to go back there in a potential future game; get me a new stage.
I honestly think the reason why the Adventure formula is being avoided is because, well, the last Adventure-style game was Sonic '06. I think the management at Sonic team is afraid to try that again, after what happened with that game. Granted, its problems aren't due to it being an Adventure style game, but I still think that's made them a bit shy to the idea
Another note: Mario was actually going through this same nostalgia-centering issue up until Odyssey, so hopefully a Renaissance is in the works for Sonic as well
I personally prefer the Adventure style gameplay over the boost formula not out of nostalgia (even if I grew up with those games), but because it does a better job at implementing Sonic into 3D. The boost formula altogether is one-note, boring and its only appeal is going fast. For Sonic Team to further be so focused on Classic Sonic as well and want to appeal to nostalgia just to make a quick buck, these people are pathetic. To go on a tangent, another 3D Sonic game that's also popular is Heroes. At the time of its release, it got favorable scores and sold really well.
This needed to be said. And you couldn't have spoken the truth better. :)
Long story short, Sonic Team needs to hire fans from the community to make their 3D games, specifically the producers of Sonic Utopia, the Sonic infinity engine, and Sonic Paradise.
Iizuka be like: REEEEEE stupid Baka Gajins how DARE they get tired of Green Hill Zone and Chemical Plant Zone! Listen Gajins, i know exactly what's best for Sonic and that's Nostalgia! You're going to enjoy Green Hill Zone no matter if you like it or not! ...What's that? You feel nostalgic towards adventure style gameplay? Screw you another adventure game would be a step back to the franchise because i say so you ding dong. Just buy our "Cinematic" Boost To win game with Shoe horned Classic Sonic and shut up.
This would be funny if it was not the straw man argument ive seen used in this fucking comment section over and over. Just like the sjw left gave rise to the equally autistic alt right. the constant spewing of the sediment contained in your post. Has given rise to the equally retarded "All 2d sonic games are bad" This is horseshoe theory in practice.
two sonic videos in a row?! new record!
I am a Game Developer who feels exactly the same way which is why other than working on my job game been working on my own Online Sonic game "Sonic Battle R" which captures the adventure series, but also mechanics of the newer games as well. Sonic Mania on the other hand, I find it to be holding itself back as they didn't bring anything from the advance series Character Control wise. There's no reason Knuckles not being able to punch in 2018
“Evidence suggests lizuka is forcing it”
FORCing it
You can’t stop me
100% agree with this video. Well done and this is why I've been sick of Sonic for the last handful of years.
I don't see why Sonic team can't just take a break for once. They rush every sonic game and don't get much time off there hands to get crap done. I mean look at Shantae, she had a game in 2002 disappeared for some time and then came back 2010. Same thing happened to Megaman, God of War and what ever else. With nostalgia being put in Sonic games ALL THE TIME, I start to think of it more like drawing a picture. Like you draw a picture of sonic and thats amazing. You draw a picture of Sonic again but this time you add color, again good. You do the same thing, but you at different color to it, yes thats different, but you're still doing it to the "same" character. Another example is like impressing someone doing a cartwheel, thats cool but if you keep doing this and don't change it, now thats a problem. Taking a break is the best option, but I doubt they'll do that.
You deserve a mike drop. This video is exactly what Sega needs to listen to.
unfortunately i don't see sonic team listening to anyone anytime soon
True but I am saying it as an "in general" way.
It's not nostalgia if it's now the norm.
-MugiMikey
Gamma's theme!!! Nice touch and YEEEEEES I agree so much. Remember a time where almost every Sonic Game had new levels and music? I do.... I miss those times. I also feel like Amy fit the Adventure 1 game despite being a bit slow. As someone who DID play SA 1 in the early 2000s and again in 2013 for my gaming channel, I can tell you from personal experience NOT NOSTALGIA that the gameplay does hold up, it's just the SA1 camera that's mainly an issue. An issue that was in all early 2000s platformers.
Yeah I’d love to have Amy come back with a similar move set. Her jumps were a LOT of fun in wide open areas but unfortunately her levels often constrained her movement. As a kid I use to run around the adventure levels and get into weird high places just with some well timed jumps. If we could get levels that are better suited to how she moves, that would be a lot of fun. Also maybe give her more of a combat focus with her hammer. Sadly I think Sega is too scared to use the other characters after a handful of fans who just want Sonic (although Sega really needs to figure out Sonic, so maybe they should focus on making him fun to play first).
Mario Odessey did a fantastic job with the sunshine playstyle and incorporating new mechanics like using his hat to control other enemies. This kinda gave me banjo kazooie/tooie vibes. Way better than took a laylee. Sonic can use adventure playstyle, but with new mechanics like Odessey. They need to ask themselves what new things can sonic and other characters can do and what new levels can do. I didn't enjoy colors wisp mechanic, but it was a new idea. Werwhog could've been way more fun If we had a game with brawler knuckles or 3rd person shooting tails that would be nice.
*Looks at Green Hill*
I really wish they made a Sonic Adventure 3. I'd buy that shit so quick.
This video is outdated. Theres not enough classic sonic in it...
This was a joke. Nobody flip
What I like about the adventure games so much is that all the levels were unique each level was fun in its own way like at the start of sonic adventure 2 you run from a giant G.U.N truck and closer the the end you fight a giant lizard.
When a series has a worse record with nostalgia then Mega Man does with the Classic series, you know you have a problem. (And heck, at least Capcom has SOME justification for why they've pushed Classic so hard over the last ten years, considering the sales of the DS games. Sonic doesn't really have those same reasoning's.)
I feel like i helped inspire this video. Good on you SupermarioT, you explained this very well.
If you really think about it, the fanbase brought this nostalgia problem upon themselves. Let's try to see this from Iizuka's point of view and go back to where this problem started: 2006. Unanimously agreed to be one of the worst games ever made was just released. Everyone hated 3D Sonic.The outcry for more 2D Sonic was bigger than ever. Sonic was almost dead. Sonic Team had to think of something quick to regain their lost trust from the fans. In comes 2008. Sonic Unleashed was just released. Two new gameplay styles were just created. But only the style with 2D sections was praised. The other slow one with no 2D was ridiculed. In 2010, Sonic Colors was released for the Wii. The game was mostly 2D, and was heralded like the second coming of Christ. 2011, Sonic Generations, a mostly 2D game with the old design of Sonic from the 90s returning. It also received critical acclaim. Then comes around 2013, Lost World was released to the public, with a new, innovative gameplay style. But since most fans wanted only the boost, it had mixed reception upon release. 2014: Sonic Boom. Same story, except much worse. All while the fully 3D Sonic games (mainly the Adventure games) were getting more hate each year. 2017 arrives, with a critically acclaimed game called Sonic Mania. All 2D, most levels rehashed, and critically acclaimed. Then Sonic Forces came. Does the same thing as Mania, except people didn't like it as much. Why? After all of the love for nostalgia pandering, and all the hate for anything original? It only did what the games before it did. Well, that's exactly the problem. It doesn't do anything different. People also change opinions. Now the Werehog is being more accepted. Now Colors and Generations are being criticized for the same reason they were praised half a decade ago. And Sonic Team is taking inspiration from said games. No wonder Iizuka thinks we're still in the nostalgia hole. It's because we dug ourselves into it.
Then why doesn't he just doesn't dig himself out of that hole then? Maybe you haven't realized, but SEGA and Sonic team also have a bit part of people see and treat this franchise.
What the entire paragraph stated is that we gave Iizuka the messages that we only want nostalgia-driven games, if you read it
you’re right. the question now is wtf do we even do anymore; if things get better people will bitch, if it gets worse people will bitch; theres no easy answer
Like always great video. My outlook on sonic nostalgia is just like you. There are thousands of ideas that sega can do but just squander it. You have all these interesting side characters and they never use them. But I still really like sonic.
You're right all the way. If classic sonic and boost sonic can get all this damn attention then its time for the adventure style to be improved apon and advanced. Besides Forces really showed us that the boost formula is honestly getting boring, but I dont hear anyone complaining about that. I'll be honest, the Adventure formula is the best gameplay style for sonic. It's far better than boost and so far better than classic its not even funny
Oh we are complaining quite a lot. Just possibly not enough for SEGA to understand that.
I love your Sonic and Paper Mario videos.
Its the Adventure gameplay and Sonic 1 2 3 & knuckles gameplay that we miss not the levels/zones SEGA.
While I'll openly defend how Mania re did those stages, and say it was an opportunity they were right to take, I will say that a lot of the game as a whole seemed to prioritise referencing ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING over cohesive design and assured clarity. The final boss outstayed its welcome with the few gameplay ideas it had to offer - and a little digging taught me that it was all for the sake of a reference to a scrapped concept from CD.
Therein lies the issue: devolving to pandering instead of clever design. Mania is a great start of something that's gonna be big (trademark pillar theory) but there is evidence of an artificial historical backbone which can only serve as a safety net for so long.
Christ I haven't even seen the vid yet this issue's just such a big deal.
So glad I found this in my recommendations, you said straight facts dude
Sonic Team needs to learn that Green Hill can't be considered Nostalgic when it's been in every Sonic game since 2011.
0:02 Green Hill
Really great video my friend. You hit on a lot of great points. This video was more powerful because how you delivered the message.
I stumbled across your videos recently and enjoyed the commentary you provided about the Sonic franchise. It feels very loose and candid. Although I find myself enjoying the overall commentary in your videos, the actual structure and dialogue you utilize makes it a little confusing and repetitive to get to the main arguments you put out. You tend to repeat your points frequently throughout the video and sprinkle in new criticisms or arguments among the repeating information, so sometimes, I find myself lost in the web of words.
Also, I think you make fair points but your arguments often feel like they're relying on "and I'm right because look: everyone says so" rather than something from your solid perspective. Pointing out how the community feels on certain issues really helps put things into perspective (especially for someone like me who isn't a part of the Sonic fandom/fanbase/community), but those tactics often weaken your points and make them feel less like claims and more like "I'm saying what everyone else is saying because we're *right* "
I like your perspective on the Sonic franchise, so I would love to hear your opinions backed up with reasons and evidence from the games themselves rather than what everyone is shouting about, ya know? And again, I love the community perspective but for the majority of the points you bring up, doing so feels... off? Is the best way I can put it?
ANYWAYS yeah, I'm not trying to tell you how to run your channel. You do you. Just some things I noted that made listening to a few of your videos a little difficult for me. But hey, if you see no problem with it, then it's all good.
Still love your videos and hope you continue adding to the discourse about this wonderful game franchise ^u^
9:38 *FACTS*
I feel they could have used Forces' returning Classic Sonic and the returning locales in their favor, but made every wrong move to not do so. I mean, Sonic being taken away from the past in Mania should mean that Eggman was free to take over the world then. So with Classic in the future, he would have to build the resistance by meeting all the people that no longer know him, fighting villains that were never taken down, and visiting completely altered locales. I mean, a completely destroyed Green Hill baren of any sort of life, a collapsing Angel Island being attacked by hundreds of the ships from Sonic 3 & Knuckles, a melting Ice Cap, an excavated and robotocized Marble Garden, etc. Make Infinite the organic sentient version of the Phantom Ruby, fix Tails' character, improve the writing, and scrap the Avatar, and you've got a great Sonic story.
Everything you said except scrap the avatar, that was like the one good original idea from Sonic Forces
MetaAxe 1456 The Avatar drags down cutscene quality, looks jarring compared to everyone else, and provides nothing interesting to the story, only serving as a cute niche.
But every cutscene was in-engine regardless, except for a few ones with Chaos and the one with Infinite (which they decided to prerender for some god knows what reason, they even left the cutscene locations in the files!)
Classic was what really held Forces back, Custom Hero was the best part of the game. The story was ok, although we could have had more levels such as a Chaos Boss Fight. Then Episode Shadow should have gotten an epic boss fight against Fake Shadow that used lines from Shadow Multiplayer & referenced the faker scene from SA2 as well.
Screw classic sonic
My answer was "Formula".
I was wrong
I couldn’t possibly agree more. Sega keeps bringing in gimmicks to old stages and reuse old music. I think they need to focus on gameplay that is fun and challenging before anything else. New, more diverse levels and branching pathways would go a LONG way in improving Modern Sonic. Story needs to come second; just look at Mario Odyssey: the story is just the framework but it feels amazing to move around in each world.