i had to learn this rotation stuff myself with a friend. i knew that we were supposed to use some sort of rotation, i knew the cuts, i just didnt know how this worked. i guess its a bit late for me to watch this, but ty anyways, ill try to use elbow cuts more. and also thanks for the advice on when to use them. as for how we practiced, we wore parkas, and used carbon fibre arrows that i had untipped and taped the ends of as sabres. then we upgraded to narrow-ish pvc pipes with towels wrapped around our hands, but this meant we could go for head hits as the hood wouldnt offer a lot of protection against that, so the upgrade was more like 'sometimes this, sometimes that'. the main reason we learned british military sabre was to bully our friends in a game we call 'bannerlord' we play in summer (obviously named after mount & blade: bannerlord, the story behind the name is most of us couldnt really play it because we couldnt run it, so we gathered sticks and started going at it in teams. then we added a bunch of game modes, and now when you say 'bannerlord' in our summersite, everyone thinks of beating the shit out of each other with sticks, with the exception of the sword hand(s), throat, and the head. we preted we have protective hilts or even crossguards.) because i was the only one with an actual sort of sword (a wooden bastard sword, that someone from my hema club had gifted me) they didnt allow me to use it, because i would jut obliterate them. (seriously, we had a 2v2v2v3 and i lost my teammate while everyone else was alive, proceeded to take the sword from her, and then bullied everyone, not because i was good but because they were all noobs. so they start complaining like 'im not gonna play if you have your sword' and 'you know how to use a sword, its unfair' bro git gud, like me and this guy.) now im going to obliterate them without the one and only *sword*. also we made a bunch of flexible pvc swords for next year. we'll also probably buy some more pipe to make more. i dont intend to use the arrows in a team melee, they really do break, and i dont want them to be smashed by twigs and pipes because theyre great training sticks. (what weve basically been doing is singlestick lol now i realise.)
Thanks, I hope it can help. Aha that's a great journey story for trying to practice, sounds like fun summers. You could also think about everyone pitching in for these sabers, you can hit people in the head without protection. There balanced properly and aren't too expensive. Different sizes and straight and curved. Can be found at Histfenc for EU and here for NA www.woodenswords.com/product_p/spes-saber.pad.h.htm There in a couple of our videos. Hope you guys are able to keep doing it!
Really good video! For the outside moulinettes, I believe it's still possible to retain contact to handle with the bottom fingers. I find there's a delay to "fa-jin" (explosive finish) when the bottom fingers are released too much. Maybe just differences in wrist flexibility that your beginning students may experience, which would require some loss of contact at first
Yes, but they would use a different word instead of a french word. In German sabre they use Circle, Rotate, hang. It's used in every sword system at points, whether a long knife or longsword.
Question , I noticed there is only 6 cuts 4 diagonal angles and 2 horizontal cuts but there was no vertical cut straight down the opponents center line or vertically? Why is that? I have been developing a system similar to this for the modern led combat saber but use a 8 cut system. I do not have a back round in classic military saber the same as I do with other sword styles but noticed the similarties with the system I've been developing and am curious why the difference?
That's just based on the individuals teaching. There are British historical sabre systems that have the 8 cuts. Some 7, some really only teach 6. And many medieval and renaissance systems only use the 6 cut lines. And really just emphasize the diagonal 4. So, cut 8 'vertically ascending' is rarely given a context and examples. Because it's a pretty useless cut, that is often unsafe to the user. It has a hard time blocking and hitting. Often a cut 8 is really going to be a cut 3 or 4 that's just slightly less diagonal. And same goes for cut 7 (vertically downward) but to a lesser extant. If two people make cut 7s then they both hit. And you are not able to have left to right body rotation or power generation with the body. It's just your arm, and forward momentum of the lunge. And then you have to stop the sword hitting the ground or give it a Cut 1 or 2 ending angle anyways, which allows it to flow to the next cut. Charles Rowarth (1798) discourages cut 7s as he says they are the easiest to parry and you're better off making a cut 1 or 2. But we do see world wide the diagonal cuts are the default, because when two people make cut 1s then the swords will meet. So it's safest to use diagonal cuts and cross the centerline. Cuts 5 and 6 also have this danger against each other, but they allow body rotation, and will interact and cross with the 4 base cuts. But in the end there all just baselines for teaching. Once you are fencing, you have 360 degrees of cutting angles, and can use what you need for a given context at that moment.
Excuse me, shouldn't we extend our wrist on any saber strike? Can you ask why? The coach at my club insists that you have to bend your wrist when hitting fast, which I also think is odd. Thanks.
No, the sources I follow, that is not mentioned. That mainly comes from Olympic fencing where you want extra reach to touch, and the weapons are light. I have been injured early on by using broken wrist positions. This video actually goes through all the points that I would make about broken wrist positions. th-cam.com/video/PKuUekNjxqU/w-d-xo.html That being said though, people do find different ways to do things. An example is 1800s German Sabre masters said NEVER put your thumb on the spine. And some British ones say always put your thumb up the spine. So there are different ideas. But I train Messer, sword, rapier, saber and cut the same with all. The heavier the weapon, the more likely you'll get injuries extending the wrist. But with some late 1800s sabers that are very light you can start getting away with it.
Lol, well most sources do say cut 7 as well. But in Rowarth he doesn't actually list it, he mentions there's a cut 7 but it's too easy to defend and recommends to not use it. I also mainly do medieval fencing where its diagonal downwards as well. Even if it's close to vertical I always have a bit of a diagonal lean, that allows it to connect to your body, and you don't have to stop the cut from hitting the ground. You can just flow the cut left or right, and have opposition against a sword.
It’s intended to just be general for all sources. Not the specifics of any. By the 1800s every British source used that cut numbering. As well as German, French and others had the same cut lines. Charles Rowarth and Henry Angelo are two that I use the most. With John Waite being one I like for late sabre.
Simple, basic, well explained, clearly demonstrated. Thanks.
Thank you!
I'm impressed. That pretty much sums everything really important.
i had to learn this rotation stuff myself with a friend. i knew that we were supposed to use some sort of rotation, i knew the cuts, i just didnt know how this worked. i guess its a bit late for me to watch this, but ty anyways, ill try to use elbow cuts more. and also thanks for the advice on when to use them.
as for how we practiced, we wore parkas, and used carbon fibre arrows that i had untipped and taped the ends of as sabres. then we upgraded to narrow-ish pvc pipes with towels wrapped around our hands, but this meant we could go for head hits as the hood wouldnt offer a lot of protection against that, so the upgrade was more like 'sometimes this, sometimes that'.
the main reason we learned british military sabre was to bully our friends in a game we call 'bannerlord' we play in summer (obviously named after mount & blade: bannerlord, the story behind the name is most of us couldnt really play it because we couldnt run it, so we gathered sticks and started going at it in teams. then we added a bunch of game modes, and now when you say 'bannerlord' in our summersite, everyone thinks of beating the shit out of each other with sticks, with the exception of the sword hand(s), throat, and the head. we preted we have protective hilts or even crossguards.) because i was the only one with an actual sort of sword (a wooden bastard sword, that someone from my hema club had gifted me) they didnt allow me to use it, because i would jut obliterate them. (seriously, we had a 2v2v2v3 and i lost my teammate while everyone else was alive, proceeded to take the sword from her, and then bullied everyone, not because i was good but because they were all noobs. so they start complaining like 'im not gonna play if you have your sword' and 'you know how to use a sword, its unfair' bro git gud, like me and this guy.) now im going to obliterate them without the one and only *sword*. also we made a bunch of flexible pvc swords for next year. we'll also probably buy some more pipe to make more. i dont intend to use the arrows in a team melee, they really do break, and i dont want them to be smashed by twigs and pipes because theyre great training sticks. (what weve basically been doing is singlestick lol now i realise.)
Thanks, I hope it can help. Aha that's a great journey story for trying to practice, sounds like fun summers.
You could also think about everyone pitching in for these sabers, you can hit people in the head without protection. There balanced properly and aren't too expensive. Different sizes and straight and curved. Can be found at Histfenc for EU and here for NA www.woodenswords.com/product_p/spes-saber.pad.h.htm
There in a couple of our videos.
Hope you guys are able to keep doing it!
sounds so fucking fun man
This tutorial is really really good ! Very complete, thankss !!
Wow, so informative!
Simple, direct, concise. Nicely done. Just a noob's observation.
Really good video! For the outside moulinettes, I believe it's still possible to retain contact to handle with the bottom fingers. I find there's a delay to "fa-jin" (explosive finish) when the bottom fingers are released too much. Maybe just differences in wrist flexibility that your beginning students may experience, which would require some loss of contact at first
Great tutorial👍 Thank you for sharing
Thank you!
Very understandable, good Tutorial👍
World must see that!
probably a silly question, but are Cossack style sword twirls Moulinets?
Yes, but they would use a different word instead of a french word. In German sabre they use Circle, Rotate, hang.
It's used in every sword system at points, whether a long knife or longsword.
Question , I noticed there is only 6 cuts 4 diagonal angles and 2 horizontal cuts but there was no vertical cut straight down the opponents center line or vertically? Why is that? I have been developing a system similar to this for the modern led combat saber but use a 8 cut system. I do not have a back round in classic military saber the same as I do with other sword styles but noticed the similarties with the system I've been developing and am curious why the difference?
That's just based on the individuals teaching. There are British historical sabre systems that have the 8 cuts. Some 7, some really only teach 6. And many medieval and renaissance systems only use the 6 cut lines. And really just emphasize the diagonal 4.
So, cut 8 'vertically ascending' is rarely given a context and examples. Because it's a pretty useless cut, that is often unsafe to the user. It has a hard time blocking and hitting. Often a cut 8 is really going to be a cut 3 or 4 that's just slightly less diagonal. And same goes for cut 7 (vertically downward) but to a lesser extant. If two people make cut 7s then they both hit. And you are not able to have left to right body rotation or power generation with the body. It's just your arm, and forward momentum of the lunge. And then you have to stop the sword hitting the ground or give it a Cut 1 or 2 ending angle anyways, which allows it to flow to the next cut. Charles Rowarth (1798) discourages cut 7s as he says they are the easiest to parry and you're better off making a cut 1 or 2.
But we do see world wide the diagonal cuts are the default, because when two people make cut 1s then the swords will meet. So it's safest to use diagonal cuts and cross the centerline. Cuts 5 and 6 also have this danger against each other, but they allow body rotation, and will interact and cross with the 4 base cuts.
But in the end there all just baselines for teaching. Once you are fencing, you have 360 degrees of cutting angles, and can use what you need for a given context at that moment.
@@superiorhema thank you that is a beautiful summarized answer. Most informative. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question on here.
Thanks
Yes!
Excuse me, shouldn't we extend our wrist on any saber strike? Can you ask why? The coach at my club insists that you have to bend your wrist when hitting fast, which I also think is odd. Thanks.
No, the sources I follow, that is not mentioned. That mainly comes from Olympic fencing where you want extra reach to touch, and the weapons are light. I have been injured early on by using broken wrist positions. This video actually goes through all the points that I would make about broken wrist positions. th-cam.com/video/PKuUekNjxqU/w-d-xo.html
That being said though, people do find different ways to do things. An example is 1800s German Sabre masters said NEVER put your thumb on the spine. And some British ones say always put your thumb up the spine. So there are different ideas. But I train Messer, sword, rapier, saber and cut the same with all. The heavier the weapon, the more likely you'll get injuries extending the wrist. But with some late 1800s sabers that are very light you can start getting away with it.
No hip rotations?
Not as the primary mode of power generation in french and british saber no.
Wait, theres no overhead cut,?
Lol, well most sources do say cut 7 as well. But in Rowarth he doesn't actually list it, he mentions there's a cut 7 but it's too easy to defend and recommends to not use it.
I also mainly do medieval fencing where its diagonal downwards as well. Even if it's close to vertical I always have a bit of a diagonal lean, that allows it to connect to your body, and you don't have to stop the cut from hitting the ground. You can just flow the cut left or right, and have opposition against a sword.
After what Literature are the cutes made?
It’s intended to just be general for all sources. Not the specifics of any. By the 1800s every British source used that cut numbering. As well as German, French and others had the same cut lines.
Charles Rowarth and Henry Angelo are two that I use the most. With John Waite being one I like for late sabre.
Not every British source from the 1800s does but most do. John Musgrave Waite does not use the target, he only uses direct cuts though.