Dunno why YT recommended me this, but I see some doubters and want to toss this out there. Yes, this is real and dramatically more important than you think it is. Yes, it effects other instruments. Heck, the Perinet Trumpet is probably the LEAST hateful instrument in terms of gap effect. No, the changes in intonation are not just the result of making the instrument shorter or longer. Insufficient gap (or negative gap, oyy...) is really bad. I'm not good enough to tell the difference between 1/64" insertion depth, but I've definitely played instruments that I could tell the difference between 1mm, and that's only 0.05mm of shank size (taper = 1:20). This isn't snake oil.
Thank you, @Markworth! The acoustics behind the gap were well established over 40 years ago so there is no secrets or snake oil about it. Of course there are some players that don't perceive a change in the gap, and that is okay! For some players increasing or decreasing gap makes all the difference, and we see those results daily. The paper trick makes figuring this out as easy and painless as possible.
Gents, thank so much for talking about this topic at length. I'm a believer. I have an old Kanstul/Besson C trumpet (1980's). Unknown to me, the receiver was really worn. I suffered for along time and even threw it in the closet years ago. then.... Frank Huber, of Huber Mutes, introduced me to this idea with small slips of paper. WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! 1/8" gap is THE sweet spot for me. It feels like a completely different instrument now. I can actually control the horn now! thank you for sharing this knowledge with the world.
@@bobreevesbrass the incredible thing is (and some respondents have already mentioned this), it is not just one aspect that improves. slotting, accuracy up top, clarity down low, intonation, timbre. It all improves and becomes more homogeneous in all registers. I'm no genius, but by playing around with different quantities/sizes of paper, I can ALMOST gets that old C trumpet to "feel" like my Early 2000's Lawler Model B. Thanks again for all your insight and generosity.
I don't know about "the gap" but I'm pretty sure that moving the mouthpiece in or out is going to change the intonation simply because you're changing the length of the airway, the same as moving the tuning slide.
Thank you for your comment. Yes, moving the mouthpiece in or out is a tuning device as well. We suggest trying the paper trick to experience what other changes, besides intonation, you feel or hear!
yes, the gap in the receiver makes or breaks the sound. Too far out, more muffled, more resistance, making it sound more like a flugal horn. Too far in, bigger the sound, the resistance is gone and you have to use MORE air to fill it. I used to have a Reeves screw-rim trpt mouthpiece and would unscrew the rim about 4-6 turns and it would sound flugal horn mellow. same trick that Dennis Datson used when he was with Woody Herman.
This idea has merit. I have a used flugelhorn. The clamp that allows you to move the tuning slide so as to tune the horn was broken and the tuning slide wasn't usable. I knew that, but, I inserted a small piece of paper toweling between the tuning slide and the leadpipe, thus allowing me to tune the horn. So, you never know when a piece of paper can save the day.
I think it´s also important to note that there is now an air-leak with the paper inserted like this and the metal is buffered, which probably has an effect as well. If this represents mostly the changes in gap size, good video.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment! If done properly (not wrapping the paper around the shank but inserting a small slip length-wise) there will be no loss of air compression between the mouthpiece and instrument. As for the buffer, one could also use aluminum foil or a brass shim but these are not always readily available. In our experience, the change in gap has a much more appreciable effect for the player and is a close approximation of the pitch, response, and slotting a player could expect by altering the shank of the mouthpiece or the receiver before actually cutting the metal away.
Wow… I never expected a singular piece of paper can make such a dramatic difference. Lesson learned and decisions to make. Thank you so much for this video. I really appreciate it. Edit: it’s not just intonation. The sound has become more centered and vibrant. We are talking subtleties here, but a noticeable and welcome difference. And… one was better, but two was not. Crazy.
You know, this is really interesting. I bought a used Philly C recently and I love it but am struggling a bit with intonation (probably because I've never played C extensively in my life but you know). I put the shim in and got about a 2mm increase in gap from the marks on my mouthpiece and it actually seemed to help....I think. Intonation seemed to be a bit better and the high reg slotted better. Who knows how much of that is psychological (wouldn't be surprised if all of it was) but I'll certainly keep messing with it....
Thank you for your comment and glad the paper trick worked for you. You are correct that there is certainly a mental aspect to any experiment in that your brain can influence the results. There is no question about the science of adjusting the gap -- there is something to it; however, using the paper oftentimes make things play worse when your gap is already too large. The fact that you noticed some improvements likely means your gap is too small on your Philly C.
Great question, Matt. If you use a small slip of paper and insert it along the shank length-wise, the mouthpiece should still seal in the receiver. It would become an issue if you stack too many pieces of paper, or perhaps if you wrapped the paper around.
I've bought and restored an old noname trumpet. And I started to study playing this trumpet. As for my trumpet it doesn't have any gap. The pipe that looks like reciever pipe has absolutely smooth contact with lead pipe inside it. Why my prumpet has such construction and would the paper trick have the issue in my case?
I'm a 2nd cornet player. I played 2nd parts well. But now I'm a 1st cornet player and I couldn't play well as usual. Not only high notes but also low notes. Sometimes I spend 8 - 10 minutes to catch up a one singal note. I don't know what to do. What should I do?
Great question! Most other brass instruments don't have a gap like the trumpet has so the mouthpiece penetration is not as critical. However, we have found that if the mouthpiece on other instruments (like cornet, trombone, french horn, etc.) is too close or too far away from the venturi of the leadpipe, an adjustment can help.
Great question, Rusty. You can't experiment going smaller without altering your mouthpiece; however, you can confirm that you need to experiment going smaller if the paper trick makes things worse. If things do play worse with the paper, then it may be worth converting your mouthpiece for sleeves and getting some smaller sized sleeves to work with.
Great suggestion! Just make sure any adhesive gets removed when you remove the tape. You wouldn't want that stuff getting in your receiver and building up.
@@bobreevesbrass Usually the stickyness of the adhesive goes away the wetter it gets so having any kind of adhesive getting into the horn was a non issue.
My trumpet is hard going past second octave very hard that is d2 im told to geth rid of my ytr6335g and get a zeno is that true did yamaha make the 6335g that bad
Separating the mouthpiece from the instrument using paper of course has an effect on the acoustics :-) Making the instrument+mouthpiece longer of course has an effect on the intonation :-) There is a big element of superstition involved here :-)
Thanks for your message. Yes, changing the gap is a tuning device because the insertion of the mouthpiece makes the instrument longer or shorter depending. However, there is no superstition here. The acoustical physics of the gap between the mouthpiece and the leadpipe has been long established. We've been seeing the results of adjusting the gap for over 50 years, including in double-blind tests.
Thanks for your comment, Sharp Edges. You're right, we didn't demonstrate the difference and we did that on purpose! The paper trick will get different results for different players. If we demonstrated what would happen with one of us playing on our mouthpiece and our instrument, it might influence the results when you experiment with the paper trick. Did you try the paper trick? If so, what were your results? Maybe you could share a video with what you discovered!
@@bobreevesbrass , I understand the paper trick will get different results for different players, but I was curious about your results. I didn't try myself, cause I just started learning to play the trombone.
Dunno why YT recommended me this, but I see some doubters and want to toss this out there.
Yes, this is real and dramatically more important than you think it is. Yes, it effects other instruments. Heck, the Perinet Trumpet is probably the LEAST hateful instrument in terms of gap effect. No, the changes in intonation are not just the result of making the instrument shorter or longer. Insufficient gap (or negative gap, oyy...) is really bad. I'm not good enough to tell the difference between 1/64" insertion depth, but I've definitely played instruments that I could tell the difference between 1mm, and that's only 0.05mm of shank size (taper = 1:20). This isn't snake oil.
Thank you, @Markworth! The acoustics behind the gap were well established over 40 years ago so there is no secrets or snake oil about it. Of course there are some players that don't perceive a change in the gap, and that is okay! For some players increasing or decreasing gap makes all the difference, and we see those results daily. The paper trick makes figuring this out as easy and painless as possible.
Gap is in fact serious biz- I had no idea until I experimented with my receiver. These guys are spot on
Great explanation for why sleeves are a thing. I never knew!
I finally figured out what you wanted to talk about. It's all about the balanced resistence. Great you guys!
Gents, thank so much for talking about this topic at length. I'm a believer. I have an old Kanstul/Besson C trumpet (1980's). Unknown to me, the receiver was really worn. I suffered for along time and even threw it in the closet years ago. then.... Frank Huber, of Huber Mutes, introduced me to this idea with small slips of paper. WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! 1/8" gap is THE sweet spot for me. It feels like a completely different instrument now. I can actually control the horn now! thank you for sharing this knowledge with the world.
Hello Jorge, you're welcome! As you note the gap can make a major difference in how a horn plays!
@@bobreevesbrass the incredible thing is (and some respondents have already mentioned this), it is not just one aspect that improves. slotting, accuracy up top, clarity down low, intonation, timbre. It all improves and becomes more homogeneous in all registers. I'm no genius, but by playing around with different quantities/sizes of paper, I can ALMOST gets that old C trumpet to "feel" like my Early 2000's Lawler Model B. Thanks again for all your insight and generosity.
I don't know about "the gap" but I'm pretty sure that moving the mouthpiece in or out is going to change the intonation simply because you're changing the length of the airway, the same as moving the tuning slide.
Thank you for your comment. Yes, moving the mouthpiece in or out is a tuning device as well. We suggest trying the paper trick to experience what other changes, besides intonation, you feel or hear!
yes, the gap in the receiver makes or breaks the sound. Too far out, more muffled, more resistance, making it sound more like a flugal horn. Too far in, bigger the sound, the resistance is gone and you have to use MORE air to fill it. I used to have a Reeves screw-rim trpt mouthpiece and would unscrew the rim about 4-6 turns and it would sound flugal horn mellow. same trick that Dennis Datson used when he was with Woody Herman.
& there'd be a point where you'd be flat even with tuning slide (s) pushed fully in, I'm supposing.
I took your advice and borrowed my paper. It worked!
Great video! Easy to understand
This idea has merit. I have a used flugelhorn. The clamp that allows you to move the tuning slide so as to tune the horn was broken and the tuning slide wasn't usable. I knew that, but, I inserted a small piece of paper toweling between the tuning slide and the leadpipe, thus allowing me to tune the horn. So, you never know when a piece of paper can save the day.
Thank you for your comment, Ted! We're glad the paper worked on your flugelhorn.
I think it´s also important to note that there is now an air-leak with the paper inserted like this and the metal is buffered, which probably has an effect as well. If this represents mostly the changes in gap size, good video.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment! If done properly (not wrapping the paper around the shank but inserting a small slip length-wise) there will be no loss of air compression between the mouthpiece and instrument. As for the buffer, one could also use aluminum foil or a brass shim but these are not always readily available. In our experience, the change in gap has a much more appreciable effect for the player and is a close approximation of the pitch, response, and slotting a player could expect by altering the shank of the mouthpiece or the receiver before actually cutting the metal away.
yeah, and you're phenomenal experts at valve alignments that help the overall characteristics of the horn in ways you can't imagine!!
Wow… I never expected a singular piece of paper can make such a dramatic difference. Lesson learned and decisions to make. Thank you so much for this video. I really appreciate it.
Edit: it’s not just intonation. The sound has become more centered and vibrant. We are talking subtleties here, but a noticeable and welcome difference. And… one was better, but two was not. Crazy.
Thank you so much for your comment, Keith! We're glad you took the time to try the paper trick!
Bob Reeves are the best. Still love my custom piece. It kicks ass.
Thank you so much, David! That means a lot to us!
You know, this is really interesting. I bought a used Philly C recently and I love it but am struggling a bit with intonation (probably because I've never played C extensively in my life but you know). I put the shim in and got about a 2mm increase in gap from the marks on my mouthpiece and it actually seemed to help....I think. Intonation seemed to be a bit better and the high reg slotted better. Who knows how much of that is psychological (wouldn't be surprised if all of it was) but I'll certainly keep messing with it....
Thank you for your comment and glad the paper trick worked for you. You are correct that there is certainly a mental aspect to any experiment in that your brain can influence the results. There is no question about the science of adjusting the gap -- there is something to it; however, using the paper oftentimes make things play worse when your gap is already too large. The fact that you noticed some improvements likely means your gap is too small on your Philly C.
@@bobreevesbrass l
Thanks for this advice!
You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed our video!
Do we not need to factor in the break in the air seal between the mouthpiece shank and the receiver, created by the lop-sided paper insert itself?
Great question, Matt. If you use a small slip of paper and insert it along the shank length-wise, the mouthpiece should still seal in the receiver. It would become an issue if you stack too many pieces of paper, or perhaps if you wrapped the paper around.
I've bought and restored an old noname trumpet. And I started to study playing this trumpet. As for my trumpet it doesn't have any gap. The pipe that looks like reciever pipe has absolutely smooth contact with lead pipe inside it. Why my prumpet has such construction and would the paper trick have the issue in my case?
I had a couple of Reeves mouthpieces with sleeves (and a Purviance 4*k4) and the leeves worked great. Reeves also does the perfect valve alignments.
Thank you! Check out our video about the valve alignment if you haven't already.
I wonder if this can solve intonation issues ( like the typical Bach Bb trumpet flat intonation problems between C and E in the Staff ).
Are there any negatives with the adjustable shank system? Or is it unnoticeable between adjustable shanks and non-adjustable?
I'm a 2nd cornet player. I played 2nd parts well. But now I'm a 1st cornet player and I couldn't play well as usual. Not only high notes but also low notes. Sometimes I spend 8 - 10 minutes to catch up a one singal note. I don't know what to do. What should I do?
Thank you for your comment! Do you have a trumpet/cornet teacher? We would suggest starting there first!
NICE ....
What about other brass instruments? Trombone, baritone, tuba, or french horn? Does this work for those instruments too?Thanks! Dan
Great question! Most other brass instruments don't have a gap like the trumpet has so the mouthpiece penetration is not as critical. However, we have found that if the mouthpiece on other instruments (like cornet, trombone, french horn, etc.) is too close or too far away from the venturi of the leadpipe, an adjustment can help.
How do you experiment when you need the gap to be smaller when starting as is?
Great question, Rusty. You can't experiment going smaller without altering your mouthpiece; however, you can confirm that you need to experiment going smaller if the paper trick makes things worse. If things do play worse with the paper, then it may be worth converting your mouthpiece for sleeves and getting some smaller sized sleeves to work with.
I use clear packing tape.
I'm from Liberia 🇱🇷 I'm really desiring to learn in like three months
Instead of using paper, I used little slivers of scotch tape since the paper gets wet and falls apart.
Great suggestion! Just make sure any adhesive gets removed when you remove the tape. You wouldn't want that stuff getting in your receiver and building up.
I like that idea. I'll try it.
@@bobreevesbrass Usually the stickyness of the adhesive goes away the wetter it gets so having any kind of adhesive getting into the horn was a non issue.
That’s what the tuning slide is for 🤪👍
Great video!
Thank you, @Dubbledibz!
My trumpet is hard going past second octave very hard that is d2 im told to geth rid of my ytr6335g and get a zeno is that true did yamaha make the 6335g that bad
Thanks for your comment, Ted. You might try the paper trick from this video, or check out our valve alignment video for ways to improve your YAMAHA.
6335 plays great for me
Cool
That horn a Calicchio? Looks like mine.
Gap, like health in general, is not one size fits all... Each person has their own equation.
Played around with it but could not draw any conclusions
Yeah, but how do you get such thick hair? Very interesting and well done vid.
One tip to improve your playing? Always blow into the small end. You're welcome.
Great tip! You should post your own video with that one! :)
@@bobreevesbrass Lol 🤣
Separating the mouthpiece from the instrument using paper of course has an effect on the acoustics :-)
Making the instrument+mouthpiece longer of course has an effect on the intonation :-)
There is a big element of superstition involved here :-)
Thanks for your message. Yes, changing the gap is a tuning device because the insertion of the mouthpiece makes the instrument longer or shorter depending. However, there is no superstition here. The acoustical physics of the gap between the mouthpiece and the leadpipe has been long established. We've been seeing the results of adjusting the gap for over 50 years, including in double-blind tests.
There's a lot of misinformation about MY GAP out there!!
En español
This is funny. 6 minutes of talking, but they don't let us hear the difference :-)
Thanks for your comment, Sharp Edges. You're right, we didn't demonstrate the difference and we did that on purpose! The paper trick will get different results for different players. If we demonstrated what would happen with one of us playing on our mouthpiece and our instrument, it might influence the results when you experiment with the paper trick. Did you try the paper trick? If so, what were your results? Maybe you could share a video with what you discovered!
@@bobreevesbrass , I understand the paper trick will get different results for different players, but I was curious about your results.
I didn't try myself, cause I just started learning to play the trombone.
Is that a standard drill bit going into the mouthpiece throat? Wouldn't a straight fluted reamer be better? Smoother hole and more precise?
Yes, you are correct. We're not showing the full process. We use a smaller size drill to clear material before putting in the final reamer.