Was This Formula 1 Car Really BANNED?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ย. 2024
- So, was it? Or wasn't it?
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DISCLAIMER: This video is not intended for persons 13 years or under. Special mention to all the original sources of certain clips used in my videos. Please do check out their content for the full videos.
Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. There are certain scenes from the Formula 1 calendar where race footage is used. All those rights are property of FOM. Other photos and news elements are used solely for the purpose of assisting the original content illuminate a more in depth story
#f1 #formula1
Hitting the gas to correct under steer had to feel so strange, really impressive of the drivers to adapt to that
Not too dissimilar to the RB6 blown diffuser which (at the time, prior to fancy engine maps which arrived on the RB7) required the driver to apply more throttle when the car started sliding to increase downforce.
Supposedly, this was one thing Vettel was better at than Webber at the time-as indeed it was so counterintuitive. (Unsure if that’s fact or hearsay for the record-so assume hearsay).
@@RhysLloydthat's different, they accelerated to prevent oversteer, which is not very different from driving an MR layout car, so it wasn't very different
@@detectivepayne3773with 850+ HP under foot to modulate to prevent breaking traction, I suspect it’s far easier said than done.
I really like this docu-style coverage - from the nameplates to the technical illustrations, the content has levelled up!
Josh has really come along way. It’s awesome to see him branch out for more than just formula one as well.
Josh Levell
Interesting to note that the Swedish Grand Prix was not only the sole win for the fan car, but the sole win for the Tyrrell P34 6-wheeler
Now that the GMA T.50 is a thing, you can confidently say that Gordon's fan car dream lives again!
Very little known fact is that the McLaren F1 was also a fan car
@@nexas2316How was it a fan car though?
Ah, nevermind. I get the joke now 😂
@@alieffauzanrizky7202 Murray himself said that it also used the fan concept to drive air to the underfloor for more downforce.
@@alieffauzanrizky7202 "What the F1 did was, I had two reflex diffusers, very steep, that the air would not normally follow. But only so wide," Murray continued, indicating a width of maybe 20cm or so.
"It had two 140mm fans, sucking the air out of them and when you switched them on we got five percent downforce and a two percent reduction in drag.
"But we had so little time in the wind tunnel because it was the Formula 1 tunnel we were borrowing, effectively.
"I logged it in the memory and I thought 'If ever I do another supercar, I'd like to do that over the whole floor of the car - the diffuser floor - and that's what we've done."
6:17 Josh when he said "Loti" as plural form of Lotus: 🧐🧐🧐
Let's not be mani. 😂
he did also say "ground effectS" a few times...
@@aoife1122 Ahem, the plural of "manus" is not "mani", it's actually just "manus" with a long "u".
The only time when "loti" is unacceptable as the plural is when you're actually referring to the cars. xD Ironically.
Josh is correct tho. Back in the days when Lotus was competing, it was common two say Loti.
Great video as always! I have a suggestion, could you do a video about Bernie Ecclestone? With his influence in F1, wins and controversies it would be great.
That will be a long, long video. Full of so much corruption that we still don't know all about.
@@Lukeywoodseya series in itself. Brilliant.
Josh!!!!!!!!
@quikesteve you really want brother Josh to walk on broken glass, don't you?
@@hitenshah821 hahaha True, but that's why that would be an amazing video!!!
It would be interesting but my word, Bernie Ecclestone is a rabbit hole all to himself.
Before fan cars were banned for the next season Gordon Murray had already designed an new car, the BT47 solely around using the fan concept. Rules were changed and the whole thing was abandoned so the BT48 was then designed and built for 1979
This isn’t the end of the fan car, though.
In 2010, Red Bull created a concept for Gran Turismo known as the X (later rebranded as the X2010 when they made new iterations of it).
Sadly that only exists virtually, which a purist would suggest doesn't count (RBR does have a full-size model, but it's not a runner). I do love that project, though. I think Newey's AM Valkyrie design has shades of X1 DNA in its shape, too, just without the fan and with full-width front bodywork.
as long as the concept is active in some form, it will see it's time again.
That iconic fan is on Gordon Murray's latest super car the T50. Amazed it's still as good today
Allegedly, the Tyrrell 008 was conceived as a fan car. But cooling problems didn't allow it past testing.
Which one of Murray's assistants went to see incognito, and took notes of.
Funny, the car with a fan had cooling problems
@@ryangoard3791ironic.
Big props for using the term Loti 👍 reminds me of James Hunt repeatedly using it on commentary ❤
Can you imagine those fans on current cars? Probably be smaller.
McMurtry Spierling
Would be insane seeing this concept adapted for a 2023 F1 car. From 1978, to 2023/24.
GMA T.50
I feel like you can draw a parallel between this story and the current news of F1 teams not wanting Andretti to join. Both situations are in the name of profits and both go directly against the spirit of sporting competition. Sad to see.
Murray finally managed to put the fan back on a car, in the guise of the Gordon Murray Automotive T50
Actually Gordon Murray also designed the McLaren F1 which actually was a fan car.
The good ol' fan car. Gordon Murray at his Gordon Murray-est. Epic.
Absolutely amazing what engineers can put together especially during this time period
Formula 1 be like "Oh you're faster than me? But are you faster than the rule book I am about to throw at you"
Mind you, if the fan car _hadn't_ been banned after the season, the inevitable parade of copycats and escalations the next year would likely have caused all sorts of _interesting_ shenanigans.
And speaking of copycatting the next year, that Lotus would receive a formidable reply in the form of the Ligier JS11 - a car that produced so much downforce it was at risk of pulling other cars into orbit around it.
I will say there is a silver lining to this story, in that despite the fact the fan car was forever banned from the sport, Murray - being the ever crafty and tenacious devil that he is - managed to aspire the fan design onto the McLaren F1’s spiritual successor, the GMA T.50. That and coupled with that utterly soul stirring V12 is bound to make one hell of a combination.
So thankfully, life can’t completely screw over your greatest works so long as you got the will and the know how!
Great video as always, Josh!
The Fan car did actually race again... the 1979 Gunnar Nilsson Memorial Trophy
Loti = hysterical
Imagine if they kept the car for the entire season and everyone decided to make their own fan car. I wonder how the current cars would look like
Witchcraftimost! You don't sound old enough to know Stanley Unwin. Love it!
Things like this and the Williams FW14B, to me at least, show why comparing cars of different eras is difficult at best because stuff gets banned on grounds of just being ungodly OP so the car is 100% fast as hell but using tech that simply can't exist in more contemporary F1 vehicles. It's totally possible that something like this could keep pace with cars that came years later simply because it's doing something those cars aren't afforded.
Josh, your videos have been great recently! Keep it up, my guy! ✌️& 🧡 from Palmy North 🇳🇿🔥
Now do one on the pump up suspension ruse from when skirts were 'banned' in 1981.
A couple of points, that emphasize how much of a game-changer the fan car could've been. Firstly, while ground effect worked as a result of vehicle speed, the fan worked off of engine speed. This meant traction off the line was MASSIVELY increased, and grip in slow corners was much better than the Lotus.
Secondly, that airflow from the fan effectively gave the car a permanent DRS system. Pumping air out the back at 55mph meant that when the car was doing 180mph, it effectively had the drag of the car doing 135mph without the fan (if working at perfect efficiency). While the effect of this wouldn't be as extreme as I suggest (there would be losses), with drag exponentially on relation to speed, even a small reduction in drag makes a large difference to top speed.
Having read Gordon Murray's autobiography, in it he stated that with a little fettling and driver experience, the car would've been capable of dropping lap records by several seconds at any given circuit, and that Lauda could've lapped the field instead of winning by 35 seconds...
I watched some of the race footage from the event it ran and I recall one moment, where Lauda passed someone on the last corner, by turning the car into inside line without losing any of his speed and grip, while the other driver was on the fast racing line. It really looked like that car went on rails, absurd stuff to see.
Would you make a video about the Silver Arrows rivalry between Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg and explain why their friendship collapsed? Or about the great Stirling Moss the best F1 driver to never win a world championship title? Or is George Russell the teammate Mercedes AMG needs?
Another great vid Josh. Love your work!
Gordon Murray, an absolute legend. Makes a lethal monster of a fan car, makes a car for a new high end car manufacturer bearing the name of an F1 team that bothers the top 10 production car top speed records for about two whole decades and puts said company en route to a point where they're probably more famous as a vehicle manufacturer than as an F1 team. And then at some point in the 2020s, decides to just fuck it and combine both legendary designs to create one sleek beast, with understated design violently juxtaposed by a screamin cosworth v12 and the giant fuckin fan.
Really enjoyed this vid, great job, keep it going.
2:13 that is a freakin trash bin lid over it, I just completely lost it when I saw that lol.
Man, I love your videos. I get excited every time I see a new one, regardless of topic
It was crazy because it wasn't banned mid season as it was actually well within what is stated in the rulebook. But of course, rival gonna rival, the other teams complained not because it was illegal, which it technically wasn't, but because they would have to build their own and it would be too expensive for them.
Fun Fact: The other teams initially claimed the fan threw stones at them. However, the fan actually spun at such a low RPM that it would throw stones to the sides instead of directing at another driver, granted at a barely high enough speed to do any damage
55mph was the speed the derbris could potentialy fly off in the backwards direction. Car is going in the forward direction (well hopefully), so no, those speeds dont add up.
Depends what the 55mph is relative to. The car following is going forwards at 150mph+ towards debris that's been spat out of the car in front.
@@FlyBoyGrounded Oh right! in that case those could potentially ruin your day.
Ah! Both an upcoming scale model build ❤💥😎🏁 Lotus 79 & Brabham BT46
FINALLY someone on YT gets the story RIGHT. About the only point I'd argue would be the assertation that the concept of a "fan car" was banned for '79. It would be more correct to say that the loophole in the rules that the fan car exploited was removed from the F1 rulebook.
Just because the rules for a given season are different to the previous season, it does not mean that the previous season's cars are "Banned", it just means that the previous seasons cars no longer comply with the current ruleset. That is the Formula part of the name, and if you build a car that complies with that Formula, congratulations, you've built an F1 car! If the Formula then changes, and that car you built doesn't meet the new Formula, that doesn't mean your car isn't still an F1 car, it's just not a current F1 car, as it doesn't meet the current rules.
For example, the Maserati 250F competed in 46 Grand Prix between 1954 & 1960. In that time, it won 8 races, winning two drivers championships.
Was it an F1 car? Yes.
Does it comply with current F1 rules? Not only No, but HELL NO!!! It's a front engined 2.5L NA car, with a metal chassis, no safety features whatsoever, that ran on skinny tires & wire wheels! Good luck trying to get THAT onto the current F1 grid.
Was the 250F "Banned" from F1? No. The Formula changed, making it obsolete in F1...
Sorry if this comes off as a bit of a rant, but there are far too many YT videos of a "WHY was THIS CAR BANNED!!!?! nature, where the cars discussed weren't banned, the rules changed rendering the cars obsolete to compete in whatever championship they were intended for...
A car that requires full throttle to correct understeer is perfectly suitable for the driving style of Colin McRae as when in doubt, you really did have to go flat out
They should have re-introduced fan cars instead of ground effect ;)
Why don't you have more subs..!? Great stuff again Josh!
Wouldn’t bringing back fan cars actually be a better solution for overtaking than ground effect? It’s mechanical - not aerodynamic - and so not influenced by following another car and wouldn’t create the same porpoising issues. You could remove a lot of the wings (depending on how big you made the fans!) and therefore also reduce drag/fuel usage etc. Seems worth a rethink.
that last part hit home bro.
So basically you're saying the fan car is the real equivalent of driving like Kozo "God Foot" Hoshino from Initial D?
I'm surprised there's no accounts of the equivalents to DORIYA
BTW, the picture at 1:17 is the V12 Alfa Romeo they build in 1979, for the Brabham BT48. A nice car with a shitty engine. In 78, they had the flat-12, hence that weird tail-shape of the BT46 car.
Baby engineer here, so I'm most likely wrong, but I do think he was playing a technical numbers game when he said "only 55mph". That's 55mph on top of the 150mph+ the car behind was going which would lead to equivalent force of throwing a rock at someone at 200mph+. I'm sure that he was correct in saying that the tyres from the car could launch debris faster, but those are from only 4 possible points on track. The fan was sucking up the entire mass under the whole vehicle to create a vacuum and it was pointed directly at the driver behind. Meaning that anything the whole body of the car drove over, could be launched into the direct firing line of another driver's head, instead of just the 4 tyre points.
Though, I can be completely wrong, and I hope that someone more experienced can shine some light on this stuffs! :D
I guess (I have no proof, it's just something I was thinking while watching the video) the 55mph speed ot the debris coming out of the fan was the real speed, and this is why I think so:
It was the 70's, much less technology than now, so it would be much easier to measure the speed of the wind/dust/debris from the fan while the car was stationary than having to measure it while the car was... A) at a wind tunnel or B) running at 150mph+, so they had to measure the speed of the wind/car in general and also the speed of everything coming out of the fan to come with the final result by doing "205 - 150 = 55".
Again, I have no proof of anything, it's just a theory, and maybe they actually did it that way or they had the technology, resources and time to do it and the fan was throwing dust and dirt at 200mph for real but that number was reduced while the car was moving so they used the smallest numer possible.
GLAD YOU MENTIONED JIM HALL
Bernie was playing the long game and got rewarded for it in the end.
that's amazing, now please make a vid on Lotus 88
Imagine the 2020 F1 car having a fan like that. The grip would be immense
The closest you'll probably get to that is the red bull x2010/11
Hey Josh can we get a F1 23 braking point 2 video? The last one was amazing
Gordon Murray is the GOAT 🇿🇦
The way this is like life itself is that a perfectly good idea and someone's valid hard work can be smothered by politics and ulterior motives. Sometimes even by someone who should've been on your side. // It's also worth noting for people thinking of the T.50 and McLaren F1 that those fan systems are not _quite_ full ground-effect vaccuum fans in exactly the same way. There aren't sliding-skirt seals like the 2J or BT46B; the T50's fan is used to make a normally-unworkable diffuser shape work by pulling air through at such a rate/density that it sticks to an incredibly steep venturi outlet - so, kind of supercharging the passive aero device(s). The effect is less comprehensive than the '70s fan cars, but workable on public roads that aren't as flat or predictable as racetracks. A different, inspired application of the old idea.
I would love to see a video about Bernie Ecclestone and how the became the boss of F1! Love your Videos
Murray was so upset, he ordered the car to be chopped up and scrapped a few months later. Such a shame
I'm still bemused at the idea that an actual vacuum cleaner not only drove in a F1 race, it WON.
The new Gordon Murray cars have that fan car....
Gordon Murray looks weirdly like Sean Murray the spokesperson for the game No Man Sky
You mentioned a1gp briefly in one of your videos. So can you make a video on what happened to it? I am curious to know what went wrong Cos it came with so much hype.
Honestly i think the current cars should use small electric fans to help with ground effect. 🤷♂️
Hi Josh. Hope you doing well. I was wondering if you could PLEASE do a 2 part video of a sanctioned championship? Champ Car World Series & a movie called DRIVEN which is related to this sanctioned championship.
He did a vid on Driven 3 years ago
It's sad that I've grown up in an era where there are no Scandinavian GP's. 😢
Global warming will see to that...
They should have pulled the: “Then fix your fucking car!”
"Was this car really banned?"
Yes!
when i first heard "fan car" i thought it was designed by F1 fans
TLDR is fan is just like suction cup, it sucked out all of the air under the car.
It was said as a joke but for the record we still haven't figured out how gravity works. No, seriously.
Short answer: no. It was withdrawn.
make an episode about bernie ecclestone !
Man… Lauda could have won the championship 1978 if it hadn’t been withdrawn
A dream for my Austrian heart
And in 1976
awesome video
Before I have watched the video: To my knowledge, technically "no." It was rather, "withdrawn from competition in the interest of fairness" by one, Bernie "Con-Man" Eccelstone.
I am wondering if fan is really needed this days in F1 to generate more downforce as it seems shift towards downforce created with upper part of F1 is becoming again equaly important (due issues with bumpy tracks and poor sealing of underfloor). Gordon has his revenge with T50. Hope we will see that beast doing something remarkable.
Something like the McMurtry
Oh, I'm sure such a fan would still be the wet dream of every F1 designer today. You can generate pretty much all the downforce you need at any given time with much less aero (and thus less drag). See the wings on that car? Almost flat.
@@aoife1122 it would be interesting to see F1 push the limits of technology again
@@JoshuaC923 It's what F1 engineers aiming for all the time. Within the limits of the regulations... and sometimes beyond.
Want to watch something hilarious? Check out Aidan Millward's story about the Tyrrell 012, driven by Stefan Bellof and Martin Brundle (titled: "The World's Fastest Shotgun") ... 150 pounds of expendable lead shot, pure genius! 😂
@@aoife1122 i love it😂😂😂
Love you 😍 and love your content.
Maybe a little deep but we get it 😊
Short answer: yes
=IF THIS WOULD VE BEEN MADE AS A STARDARD, BOTH GILLES VILLENEUVE AND SENNA WOULD VE BEEN ALIVE
=THINK ABOUT THAT...................................
The only time the fan could have contributed to debris on track would be at speeds less than 55 mph. Otherwise the air would just be entrained in the aero wash coming off the car as it moved faster.
Are you seriously suggesting we have gravity figured out now?
do you know Lachlon Ratchly
if you are than can you say "shut out to Unchanaaa and make my youtube to 100k like you
kind regard
Josh can you do a video about the politics that Bernie tried to achieve and how that FISA-FOCA war went down?
Reminds me of DAS
song name?
Just shows how bent bernie has been for his entire life
Fan cars should be the next aero spec in F1. The drivers nowdays can handle it and the cars are safer than ever.
Oh hell no. Rapid spinning blades upon which the car is dependent for grip is a terrible idea. All it'd take is a jam, a broken prop, a stray stone, a single blade snapping, a heavy front-to-rear shunt and things would get very ugly very fast. Take the accidents caused by heavy front-to-rear impacts, skirt failure, grounding and wing failure (literally the vast majority of F1 fatalities in the 70s and all of the fatalities of the 80s and 90s) and multiply them. The teams at the time came up with spur of the moment bs objections but in truth racing with fan cars would be properly dangerous.
@@ELSTERLINGi only see is girlytalk from your side.
What track was that?
Anderstorp
Answer: Movable aerodynamic devices were banned. LIke an Engine powered turbofan
0:42
Is this a reupload?
Moral of the story, F1 is the same shit, new coat of paint all these years later.
4:40 Durries = Cigarettes.
I learned 2 things from this. The history of the fan car and that Bernie Ecclestone has looked like a moron for half a century, which is quite impressive.
Honestly Josh can you please record full sentences? The content of your videos is fantastic, but the way you splice the voiceover together from about 3 different takes per sentence (each with its own end-of-sentence inflection) is really off putting to listen to.
Glued but not as much as the W11
Imagine if they had let these innovations running...ground effect to turbo v6... everything could have been at an unbelievable stage in terms of technical advancement...active suspension...cmon man...inagine how amazing our road cars wud hav been amazing...i mean if the r&d on semi auto transmission was such that now we have DCT...imagine the advancement in other areas...
Considering the fan exit speed WAS 55 miles per hour you just can't put it ON TOP of the speed of the car, you have to SUBTRACT it! That is simply because the car is going the opposite direction. Imagine standing on the truck bed of a pick-up that is driving straight with, let's say, 55 mph and you're throwing a ball the opposite direction with a speed of 55 mph, the ball would actually just fall straight down. The exact same thing would happen to air being blown out at the end of the F1 car. If you can't believe it, watch the Mythbusters: th-cam.com/video/BLuI118nhzc/w-d-xo.html
Does me saying that Yuki has had his chance to show his talent and should be replaced by Lawson count as being a menace?
DAS
I'm a simple man. I see Brabham fan car, I click.
The fan car was never banned, bernie withdrew it from competition voluntary after its first race please fact check
But he asks the question was it or wasn’t it??
Imagine where car technology would be if Formula One race teams weren't so petty about innovation.