Daybreak 109: Nietzsche's Guide to Self-Control (Dealing with Vehement Drives)
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Join me in a discussion of passage 109 of Daybreak: "Self-Control and Moderation and Their Final Motive". In this passage that we've oft referenced but not yet attempted a deep dive of, Nietzsche outlines six ways of dealing with the "vehemence of a drive". As Nietzsche considers the self to be governed by impulses, some of which are competing, we should not expect that we can simply command ourselves with a voluntarily governing ego, or somehow will ourselves into having willpower. He also rejects the Christian abdication of responsibility: i.e., that every person is inherently sinful and shall only find perfection in the next life, and therefore all men must simply yield to the grace of God. For Nietzsche, the picture of the human condition is akin to that of William James: we are bundles of habits, and every little nourishment or denial of a habit either enhances or diminishes it. This is the way that drives make war against one another within the psyche: by drawing in more nourishment for themselves at the expense of the others. The question of self-control then becomes a question of how to consciously bring about the nourishment or diminishment of one's impulses. Today's episode covers the practical question of "giving style to one's character".
Art: Napoleon Crossing the Saint-Bernard Pass, 20 May 1800/Musee de l'Histoire de France
Summary:
1) Avoidance (Will attempts to regulate self directly)
2) Indulgence (Will regulated by overindulgence and self-disgust)
3) Prohibition (Will as unconquerable, regulated by external power)
4) Shame (Will as unconquerable, regulated by desire for approval / external morality / self hatred)
5) Sublimation (Will regulated though distraction)
6) Masochism (Will as unconquerable, regulated through self destructive privation and suffering)
Seems to me that 2, 3, 4 and 6 share a sort of anti-life anti-human slave morality concept in common. Each relies on hatred of the self or fear of group punishment and powerlessness as a means of not dealing directly with the problems presented by The Will. Number one is oxymoronic. Number 2 is an inversion of 3. 5 is similar to 1.
None of these are entirely satisfactory. However some are far worse than others. In my experience a combination of indulgence and sublimation work the best to avoid self-destruction. Indulgence can teach one the limits of one’s will and map out the benefits and pitfalls of a particular drive. Sublimation can sometimes substitute one drive for another but for this to be successful the substitute must be more powerful than the drive being replaced. Sublimation also risks the achievement of empty meaningless or even destructive goals in the attempt to avoid reckoning with some Will that one is unable to come to terms with.
In the end I find it best to reckon with one’s drives directly. This requires first knowing ones drives and then excepting the drive itself without judgment. Only then can the drive be integrated into one’s consciousness and accommodated in ways that serve ones life. Or is Nietzsche might say one’s will to power. ;-)
I think all of these methods are valid but each in different circumstances. At the end they are just a methods and no method is universal. They work when used in appropriate circumstance. It is just our knowledge and wisdom that we need when to apply which method and never think that there can be one universal solution to all problems or even problems that appear same or similar.
1:00:00 this point of your so called spiritual overriding of the bodies desires, is just another drive. is made constantly by ug krishnamurti, saying "your goal of enlightenment/peace is the thing that disrupts the peace that is already there"
Really needed this one, for addiction. Thank you. 🙏
6:26 also a concept that bhuddism shares . The dynamic self as you put it. Very interesting idea and one I believe to be true.
A patient with Alzheimer a clear indicator memory plays an integral role in the construction of a personality. And memory varies greatly even in healthy brains .
Daybreak 109: Nietzsche's Guide to Self-Control (Dealing with Vehement Drives)
01:09 📚 Nietzsche's Daybreak offers practical advice for day-to-day living, a departure from his more philosophical works.
03:36 🤔 Nietzsche challenges the traditional view of the self as a unitary being and instead presents it as a multiplicity of impulses and drives.
06:49 ⏳ T.S. Eliot's poem highlights the dynamic and ever-changing nature of the self, challenging the idea of a consistent identity.
10:09 🧘♂ Buddhism's perspective on the self as aggregates or heaps offers an alternative to the Western concept of a centralized, consistent self.
16:10 🤷♂ Saint Paul's dilemma in Romans underscores the paradox of human will and desire, especially in the context of free will doctrine.
19:30 🤯 People often experience an internal conflict when trying to control their willpower, which aligns more with Nietzsche's view of the self as a multiplicity of conflicting drives.
36:24 🚫 Avoiding the occasion for satisfying an impulse is one way to combat vehement drives, by refraining from satisfying it for extended periods.
41:28 ⏰ Imposing a strict and regular schedule for satisfying one's impulses can help regulate them, creating intervals when the impulse is less disturbing. This method can gradually transition into avoidance.
42:52 🍻 Nietzche discusses methods for dealing with vehement drives, such as the desire for alcohol, and how social rituals can help manage them effectively.
44:17 🤔 Nietzche describes a strategy of deliberately indulging in a desire to the point of disgust as a means of gaining control over it, even though it can often lead to negative consequences.
46:25 🧠 Nietzche discusses an intellectual trick where one associates the idea of gratification with painful thoughts or consequences, making the desire itself feel painful and thus easier to control.
48:43 👥 Nietzche explains the role of imagination and culture in creating automatic associations of shame or fear with certain behaviors, helping individuals control their impulses.
55:18 💪 Nietzche suggests redirecting one's energy into challenging tasks or alternative pleasures as a way to subdue a dominant impulse, but acknowledges this method may only work for a few.
01:01:02 🚫 Nietzche discusses the ascetic method, where one weakens and subdues their entire physical and psychological self to control a single overpowering instinct or desire.
01:03:08 🧘♂ The deadening of the entire organism is a powerful strategy to combat vehement drives, but it comes with significant trade-offs.
01:03:36 🤯 Nietzsche outlines six methods for dealing with vehement drives, including shunning opportunities, regulating impulses, inducing satiety and disgust, associating with painful ideas, dislocating one's forces, and inducing general debility and exhaustion.
01:04:31 🧠 The intellect is not an independent entity but is driven by competing impulses, and the perception of inner conflict arises when one impulse competes with another.
01:05:14 ⚖ Nietzsche's methods for combating vehement drives are all rooted in the principle of nourishment, either directly or indirectly aiming to control the nourishment of these drives.
01:06:22 ⚔ Nietzsche suggests that controlling one's impulses is akin to a war where competing impulses attempt to cut off each other's supply lines, ultimately relying on starving or regulating these impulses for self-governance.
01:07:31 🤷♂ Nietzsche acknowledges that there is no universal prescription for managing vehement drives, and self-experimentation is often required to discover what works in individual cases.
01:08:14 🔄 William James emphasizes the significance of habit and how every small decision shapes our character and behavior, urging individuals to pay attention to their conduct during their formative years.
13:30 really an excellent point regarding prohibition and why it appeared to be the solution for paternal and spousal abandonment. The thing about compulsive behaviors is you cannot treat a compulsion directly if you're trying to cure it. You can substitute a new one by addressing only the compulsion, which is what 12-step recovery does. Addiction is not a disease per se, at least insofar as substance use disorder isn't primary pathology. Tolerance and withdrawal are known side effects, not a disease. We observe strong behavioral heritability with other compulsions as well, but parents with drinking problems often raise kids with drinking problems because their kids have sociopath and narcissist parents who will want a gold star just because they get sober. This is not a population that typically requires praise or encouragement to pursue its own interests, but that's probably because making sure to do so at your expense keeps their egos nice and happy
If they want a gold star they should not continue to gyp their kids with the injustice of shit parenting. The compulsion is the symptom, but of course someone who is incapable of mutuality who definitely takes more from their kids than they give them doesn't see that as their problem and has already been blaming the substance rather than taking responsibility all along anyway.. Steps 4 and 5 in the 12 step model force self-examination and steps 8 and 9 force accountability. So it's essentially a workaround for knocking the rough edges off antisocial behavior and substitutes meeting attendance for the compulsion and group approval for the substance. And see it's useful to the organization if they don't cure you right, it allows perpetrators to hijack a victim narrative with self-reported self-assessment, so that's where the potential to gloat over ripping off society is, I guess. Fitting then that the treatment industry is so bogus, as the disease model of addiction ensures chronicity..
Compulsions distract us from obsessions (unresolved anxieties). It is the compulsion which keeps the obsession relegated to our unconscious. So in general stress doesn't really activate compulsive behavior directly but as the indirect result of refusing to introspect. Blaming one's behavior on a made-up disease is a great way to do that. Guilt isn't excused by disease or insanity, AAMOF it's this very irrationality though that guarantees cultural immorality.
Exquisite
.Prof.Dr.Nasir Fazal Cambridge
No wonder Nietzsche was cast so far from the overman; he was running from what I can tell. It’s surprising that this is how he operated after reading Zarathustra. These methods he’s distilled under the guise of “self control” reek of 6 ways to run. Where is the mastery? Where is the understanding of the onset of the drive and more consciously leading the cattle to water when it’s thirsty rather than praying that the cattle won’t ruin the pastures in search of the water? Not to say that all impulses should be naively satiated rather the need of the impulse must be understood as to intentionally meet the lack of the certain impulse as the farmer, not the emancipated cattle. If self masterly is an internal war within you, should you win don’t you lose? Do we blame the cattle for acting out of hunger and thirst? Or do we choose how we feed it?
Nietzsche is still my favorite philosopher and this was a great video, I just find this perspective way too confining.
Thanks
50:38 >fugg
lmao love this dude
Aarvoll is an obscure youtuber who's very deeply committed to platonism and who I've followed for a few years. Don't think he's aware of you, but I think a discussion between you both would be brilliant--and he's always been open to engaging with different voices
Its funny, but i stopped drinking completely only after method 3. The schedule of drinking just doesn't work because of the amount of triggers in our modern society and you can't decide to avoid alcohol forever until you hit rock bottom and feel all this terrible influnce of acid on your conscience, decision making and emotions. But this method doesn't work for smoking nicotine, because its very difficult to hit rock bottom with cigarettes until you have cancer :)
Quite interesting you are familiar with the Christian mystics, to me nietzsche's style is the most similar to a Mystic there is, except that his revelation comes from a personal and pseudo materialist, psychological view point.
the "5 aggregates" or Kandhas, is a great work by the buddha, and seems to destroy the so called "hard problem of consciousness"
I'm probably at a point where I am conflating ideas but I have a hard time hearing his suggestions for controlling these drives and the concept of accepting life as it comes and my own will. I'm not at a point anymore, as I was as a Christian, where certain things were viewed as sinful. It took longer to break away from shame or guilt. Now however my concern is time and conformity, I can't achieve my greater desires if I waste time on the lower and cannot spend time with people for some of the "lower" drives.
I want a drive that satisfies all other drives, where I can say "it is worth regulating these drives for this". I have it in a way but its too vague in my mind, perhaps visualizing it or spending more time on in will indeed help it to grow. Part of the problem is what I want now that takes time. If the drive is good enough, if the goal is good enough it should be worth the time investment.
I feel like the man in the mirror who forgets his own face. Like I'm forgetting something, or missing something. I know in part what I need to do. If I am to look at my drives like a war, the instant gratifications do rear their head when I look to something greater. I feel like I can see where one would make demons of these types of drives in any context. Yet I don't want to hate this part of myself, I want to give it what its seeking on a more fundamental level.
I just watched the will to power podcast yesterday but feel like I've forgotten it all, I don't understand why this happens but I want to start accepting things aren't understood instantly. I feel like I've known Nietzsche forever but in the span of my life it truly hasn't been that long.
Goodatimezennie is my favorite Italian 🥧
Seems like Plato's tri-partite soul is the solution.
That depends on man being a rational animal and the passions/spirit yielding to reason. To Nietzsche, this is no solution, for we are not rational animals.
I think that too but I don’t think the metaphysical elements are reasonable to believe in
@@6ixthhydro652 You don't believe you must control your desires? You don't think you have to use logic to figure out how to live life? You don't believe your mind (same thing as soul essentially) has any power? Plato's plan for raising children this way WORKS and has transformed the world.(Not communally, but by parents).
@@untimelyreflections We put a man on the moon without logic, without figuring out a whole bunch of stuff? If we are not rational, then we have no will.
@@ozzy5146 There's a difference between having the ability to reason logically and logic determining your actions in the form of an arbitrarily governing free will. The fact that we went to the moon is therefore irrelevant to the argument at hand.
You're correct that if we're not rational, we have no free will. But we do have will. As Schopenhauer wrote, "A man cannot choose what he wills - but he wills what he wills."