As a college graduate, if enlisted paid more or as much as officer pay was, and I could have the duties of enlisted, and not the duties of an officer, I would enlist. 30:53
30:11 here’s what we do with service academies… use them for OTS and for sending enlisted members with the aptitude for officership to school to get fully educated with their engineering or medical or business degrees and what not. Make the academies only accessible to people who are already in the service. 1-2 years in everyone can get screened and you’re eligible to apply to attend the academy at any point in your first enlistment regardless of age.
Agree that there should be a prior enlisted requirement before going O (speaking as a former Army O). Another immediate fix (at least with the Army) is to stop giving the service academies first dibs on branch/career field and duty stations before they commission. Make them compete for assignments with all new officers once they are on active duty. Too many good leaders who would have been great warriors ended up branching logistics or something (not knocking those professions) because of the needs of the service. On the flip side, I saw many service academy grads who should not have been Combat Arms leaders.
I think the huge blind spot in all of this is that most service members are out after 4 years, both commissioned and non-commissioned. The reality is is that several officer jobs require vocations that are generally only taught in universities, and if most service members left after 4 years, then no one would ever be an officer. There is already little financial incentive to join the military if you have a degree.
Outside of Doctors which jobs have to be taught by universities? I’m legit curious. Would like to know specifically what I’m missing so I can plan better. -T
@@OnesReady Yeah - me too. Staff corps officers (doctors, dentists, lawyers, nurses, chaplains, etc.) have to have degrees - some postgraduate degrees) to learn their vocations. You don't learn pilot, infantry, or ship-driving in undergraduate (unless you go to a service academy) - just during summer camps/cruises.
@@OnesReady As with all military branches, engineering is huge: The Air Force alone has people with specializations in physics/nuclear engineering, developmental engineering, bioenvironmental engineering, and civil engineering. All of those cool weapons systems and tech you've seen are designed in tandem with military engineers. While there is some training that the military does provide, an engineer's predominant education can really only be accomplished in a university setting, and engineering programs are no joke. As it happens, that is also one of the reasons why the service academies exist; they are looked at as technical colleges, not just schools that churn out bright-eyed cones with butter bars. I largely agree that degrees aren't necessarily practical from a leadership perspective for most AFSCs, but the reality is that our military could not attract people with certain types of (what is effectively) vocational trainings without certain considerations with regards to rank. Many of those vocations can only be fostered in a purely academic setting. This is also one of the reasons why musicians enter service with a higher rank. For example, a member of one the DC bands will enter service as an E-6, and many of them will already have a Master's degree. It should be said that those positions are highly coveted in the music world, and members will often have decades of training before they even audition for one of those groups. If you told a world-class musician that they would have to start as an E-1 just to play their instrument, we just wouldn't have military bands. I do agree with a lot of what you said. Considering the economics of rank, what I also take into consideration is that the distribution of jobs across services will always reflect the attrition with respect to time in service; there will never be a time where the majority of enlisted are NCOs, just as the majority of Commissioned Officers will never be Field-Grade Officers. Hope this helps!
Just throwing out an idea concerning military academies, maybe no one gets accepted there until you've been enlisted at least 4 years? That way units get 2nd lieutenants and ensigns with some experience. You also do what the Coast Guard Academy does. You apply instead of getting congressional appointments. That way, you aren't appointed because your parents are friends of Senator So and So. Anyway, just a thought.
Reading past the AP headline, "Duty, Honor, Country" is (still) the West Point motto. In the mission statement, they switched the West Point Motto (which had been in there since 1998) to the full Army Values. The current superintendent (speaking of officers!) wanted to align with the broader Army. He points out the Army Values list Duty and Honor as well as Loyalty [to] "bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers." (The Army Values spell out LDRSHIP, which has no "C" available.) They also include Respect, Selfless Service, a Integrity, and Personal Courage.
Isn't this where the Army went? An ODA used to have a CPT as commander and LT as an assistant; now they have a CPT and a CWO? But then, where does the CPT get the ODA leadership experience to prepare for command? I think Trent might be on to something - before you can be a CAPT you have to be MSGT or TSGT. Someplace along the line I thought that the Canadian Forces had something like the "pay for expertise" thing for senior NCOs, and the Master Corporal rank. There is also the British model - get your civilian education any place, then go to Sandhurst for a year to learn military lore and leadership. Save a lot of money on the "trade school" academies.
Does the Air Force have an equivalent to deck plates? The Navy talks about the leadership done by E7-8-9 as "deckplate leadership." Yet, in a shipboard division, the "leading petty officer" is the E6.
The only problem that I have with the plan was laid out is that you get rid of all of your senior ranking spec ops officers. You don't want your org ran by ops. Imagine a flyer being the wing King, and another flyer as your sq or go cc.
Also, I’m not a fan of forcing people to go warrant before fully commissioned. The way that’s breaking it up a WO would simply be treated like an expensive NCO as opposed to that super technical expert. Also, not every AFSC has carry over into a specific WO or CO role. Just open it up after 4 years to apply to any officer position. The requirements for each tier alone will weed out who should and shouldn’t be picked up.
As a college graduate, if enlisted paid more or as much as officer pay was, and I could have the duties of enlisted, and not the duties of an officer, I would enlist.
30:53
30:11 here’s what we do with service academies… use them for OTS and for sending enlisted members with the aptitude for officership to school to get fully educated with their engineering or medical or business degrees and what not. Make the academies only accessible to people who are already in the service. 1-2 years in everyone can get screened and you’re eligible to apply to attend the academy at any point in your first enlistment regardless of age.
Agree that there should be a prior enlisted requirement before going O (speaking as a former Army O). Another immediate fix (at least with the Army) is to stop giving the service academies first dibs on branch/career field and duty stations before they commission. Make them compete for assignments with all new officers once they are on active duty. Too many good leaders who would have been great warriors ended up branching logistics or something (not knocking those professions) because of the needs of the service. On the flip side, I saw many service academy grads who should not have been Combat Arms leaders.
I think the huge blind spot in all of this is that most service members are out after 4 years, both commissioned and non-commissioned. The reality is is that several officer jobs require vocations that are generally only taught in universities, and if most service members left after 4 years, then no one would ever be an officer. There is already little financial incentive to join the military if you have a degree.
Outside of Doctors which jobs have to be taught by universities? I’m legit curious. Would like to know specifically what I’m missing so I can plan better. -T
@@OnesReady Yeah - me too. Staff corps officers (doctors, dentists, lawyers, nurses, chaplains, etc.) have to have degrees - some postgraduate degrees) to learn their vocations. You don't learn pilot, infantry, or ship-driving in undergraduate (unless you go to a service academy) - just during summer camps/cruises.
@@OnesReady As with all military branches, engineering is huge: The Air Force alone has people with specializations in physics/nuclear engineering, developmental engineering, bioenvironmental engineering, and civil engineering. All of those cool weapons systems and tech you've seen are designed in tandem with military engineers. While there is some training that the military does provide, an engineer's predominant education can really only be accomplished in a university setting, and engineering programs are no joke. As it happens, that is also one of the reasons why the service academies exist; they are looked at as technical colleges, not just schools that churn out bright-eyed cones with butter bars.
I largely agree that degrees aren't necessarily practical from a leadership perspective for most AFSCs, but the reality is that our military could not attract people with certain types of (what is effectively) vocational trainings without certain considerations with regards to rank. Many of those vocations can only be fostered in a purely academic setting. This is also one of the reasons why musicians enter service with a higher rank. For example, a member of one the DC bands will enter service as an E-6, and many of them will already have a Master's degree. It should be said that those positions are highly coveted in the music world, and members will often have decades of training before they even audition for one of those groups. If you told a world-class musician that they would have to start as an E-1 just to play their instrument, we just wouldn't have military bands.
I do agree with a lot of what you said. Considering the economics of rank, what I also take into consideration is that the distribution of jobs across services will always reflect the attrition with respect to time in service; there will never be a time where the majority of enlisted are NCOs, just as the majority of Commissioned Officers will never be Field-Grade Officers.
Hope this helps!
Just throwing out an idea concerning military academies, maybe no one gets accepted there until you've been enlisted at least 4 years? That way units get 2nd lieutenants and ensigns with some experience. You also do what the Coast Guard Academy does. You apply instead of getting congressional appointments. That way, you aren't appointed because your parents are friends of Senator So and So. Anyway, just a thought.
Nice- that’s a great idea.
Americans like to fight! 😅 Great episode! 🤙🏽👊🏽🙏🏽
Have you had any luck 🍀, interviewing John T. Carney?
That would be epic!
Yes it would be and great suggestion. We will see if we can track him down!!!
Reading past the AP headline, "Duty, Honor, Country" is (still) the West Point motto. In the mission statement, they switched the West Point Motto (which had been in there since 1998) to the full Army Values. The current superintendent (speaking of officers!) wanted to align with the broader Army.
He points out the Army Values list Duty and Honor as well as Loyalty [to] "bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers." (The Army Values spell out LDRSHIP, which has no "C" available.) They also include Respect, Selfless Service, a Integrity, and Personal Courage.
Isn't this where the Army went? An ODA used to have a CPT as commander and LT as an assistant; now they have a CPT and a CWO? But then, where does the CPT get the ODA leadership experience to prepare for command? I think Trent might be on to something - before you can be a CAPT you have to be MSGT or TSGT. Someplace along the line I thought that the Canadian Forces had something like the "pay for expertise" thing for senior NCOs, and the Master Corporal rank.
There is also the British model - get your civilian education any place, then go to Sandhurst for a year to learn military lore and leadership. Save a lot of money on the "trade school" academies.
Does the Air Force have an equivalent to deck plates? The Navy talks about the leadership done by E7-8-9 as "deckplate leadership." Yet, in a shipboard division, the "leading petty officer" is the E6.
The only problem that I have with the plan was laid out is that you get rid of all of your senior ranking spec ops officers. You don't want your org ran by ops. Imagine a flyer being the wing King, and another flyer as your sq or go cc.
You mean the way it is everywhere always? Until *very* recently? Lol
Also, I’m not a fan of forcing people to go warrant before fully commissioned. The way that’s breaking it up a WO would simply be treated like an expensive NCO as opposed to that super technical expert. Also, not every AFSC has carry over into a specific WO or CO role. Just open it up after 4 years to apply to any officer position. The requirements for each tier alone will weed out who should and shouldn’t be picked up.
My intent wasn’t really to present a perfect plan as much as give the conversation a jumping off point. Appreciate the comments. -T
@@OnesReady Yea no doubt. It’s not like SecAF is going to be scrolling through TH-cam comments and enacting all the pipe dreams we draft up anyway..
The academies never made any sense to me either!
Womp womp