From a 1.2 player standpoint it makes sense, even as soon as the Zhu banner people said Ellen Joe mama was getting power crept by the Pub Sec duo, and subsequently Jane Seth rom-combo. First limited dps always gets the shaft in gachas (at least it isn't Klee bad)
@@whiten00b jiyan in wuwa is still near the top though ellen really was the classic example of cluncky to play and not that strong, but i do hope miyabi will be the peak dps for the next year or so, else we're heading for a very unhealthy powercreep situation
@@ganyumaindayone1112 kinda false equivalence but understandable I don't know how wuwas power creep works, Ellen falls cause of miyabi being on field ice but even so is the second best attack unit, in an anomaly focused meta.
@@whiten00b ellen problem is more akin to her gameplay tbh than her damage she is really cluncky to play, at first wasnt an issue because the mob were kinda passive (apart from the twin and even those are pretty tame ) now compare it to current boss that are non stop aggroing your ass, from jane doe to the motorbike dude etc... i wish they used the excuse of changing the gameplay with 1.4 to buff both ellen and zhu yuan considering how strong anomaly is compared to attackers right now, time will tell in wuwa the powercreep so far is kinda slow, genshin early days like but game is young so will have to wait and see too
I think Miyabi being a void hunter definitely influences it. So far, zzz feels great in power scaling. I can use the characters I like and still clear.
@@crabstick3368 hopefully Miyabi is an outlier. If I can't keep up with the powercreep like in HSR, I'll just drop the game since I'm not invested that much into the story.
i mean at the end of the day as long as i can clear with my crit DPS lighter, i'm happy hope you all are having a splendid holiday season! hoping to make some more videos on here tomorrow :D we'll see how things pan out! otherwise, please do contribute your opinions on this matter ^^
The devs have shown that they do listen and have drastically changed a lot of the game in response to feedback. Having released this much after both genshin and hsr, they should be able see how the different games handle the same issue and make adjustments along the way. So far, i think its been handled reasonably well, after all, I'm a Billy main (despite having every limited character) and can clear the content.
In my opinion Ellen doesn't has a DPS issue it's more so that she just feels bad to play at M0 because the only way to get her stacks is to do a dash attack wich without a shielder feels kinda bad to pull off. Plus she has a lot of good supports like Cesar, Lycon, Soukaku and Lighter. Also somtimes we still need 2 ice teams like in the current Deadly Assult wich also indicates that we still need more then just one DPS units of the same element in the future.
I 3 starred the ballerina boss in deadly assault with m0 Ellen cause her clunky dash attack and combos always managed to kill the clone for the extra 200 points lol.
poor Ellen :( for the general concerns about power creep, the Evelyn dreams seem to suggest it won't be that bad and that the 'void hunter = archon/harbinger/emanator tier' theory is likely to check out.
So, I actually foresaw this exact issue - Miyabi was always going to be insanely strong. She's was so hyped and so built up in the lore that she had to be good. That being said, it remains to be seen if the powercreep is a real issue. Miyabi is most likely an outlier - she's the "Acheron" or the "Archon" of version 1. I think the Venti / Kazuha comparison is a good one. Sure Venti was only around for a bit as top dog, but he never became completely irrelevant, and even though Kazuha came in 1.6, he is still META today (Xilonen is a side-grade). I think Miyabi is going to be META for a long time; the best anomaly DPS in the game for a long time. I think what will most likely happen is that ZZZ will have another category of damage / another way to do damage. Maybe CRIT will get really good, or we'll get new supports to bring up other characters (like Lighter or Burnice) or maybe faction resonance will get really good buffs. There's lots of room here besides "new character do bigger damage than old character". I don't think ZZZ is going to do what HSR did: powercreep after powercreep. We're still building the roster out and learning what's good in the game and while Anomaly is really good right now, it may not be the be all end all for the life of the game.
The problem with HSR is that it's pretty much a turn based game that heavily depends on team comps and the "right" units, also the HP inflation. It's kinda hard to balance, and every new unit needs to be shinier than the previous But with Genshin and ZZZ, it's kinda like. You can do whatever tf you want. Go ahead and build a DPS Barbara, a crit Kokomi, a healer Wanderer, a crit DPS Lighter, literally anything. Those rely heavily on the COMBAT and BUILD aspect, so what you do with your teams isn't that huge of a deal. Miyabi just happens to be really strong, but it's hard to really "powercreep" properly in an action type of game
@@TerrorbyteTC Character that is so strong it hurts the game and made them reconsider their power creep. Genshin still has a bunch of older character in S tier, unlike HSR for example that just kept power creeping and where the release date of a character almost exactly maps to its place in the tier list.
Time will tell if I'm right but I'm thinking it may be a matter of Miyabi being our first Void Hunter rather than traditional power creep- but, as soon as we see the next two in action it'll be pretty quick to see how wrong I might be on that and if we're for realsies in power creep mode 1.4 forward
If you look at beta calcs, Astra Yao isn't that much better than Nicole for Zhu Yuan, and Evelyn is roughly on-par damage wise with Zhu Yuan. So it seems likely that Void Hunters are intentionally more powerful than the rest of the limited characters.
I hope they go with the Genshin approach where you have a very select number of characters that can be considered "broken" but with all other DPSs having a very minimal difference in power or just being sidegrades of each other.
@@OnigoroshiZero especially because this game leans more into your own skill and understanding of the characters' kits. With the right builds and setup, you can pretty much easily clear the content, only takes a little more effort compared to just getting Miyabi Someone like Harumasa still does the job, even if he's not as strong. But you do get him for free, so all the better. You still spend a good portion of the time dodging and switching characters, so it's honestly not a big deal Now HSR powercreep, on the other hand.......
For the people who complain that "Deadly Assault Bringer is made for Miyabi this is bs!!1!", you don't even have to clear ALL the nodes. All you have to do is get 6 stars (aka clear TWO nodes with 3 stars each) and you can get all the polychromes rewards. What's the point of trying too hard for some very little rewards (the 7-9 stars rewards) that you can get from Shiyu Defense, a gamemode that you should be able to S-rank if you've played ZZZ pre-1.3? If the ZZZ devs are really that stingy then they would've given us polychromes for getting 9 stars in Deadly Assault.
Power creep is literally built into any gacha. it’s inevitable. What you should look at more is if you enjoy the character’s gameplay loop. I don’t pull if a character is strong necessarily, I pull because they’re fun to play. And if they happen to be obscenely OP, well all the better. Ppl comparing Ellen to Miyabi is like comparing S tier to SS tier. She’s definitely meant to be like a Raiden, who’s useful long into the game even after the meta changes. When Ellen’s compared to other S tiers the discrepancy isn’t as staggering. Sure she got power crept but for bosses she still felt better to me than say zhu yuan.
> Power creep is literally built into any gacha. Facts. People either need to understand that, or stop denying. Power creep exists even if one doesn't engage with the modes that demands more damage per minute/second. At the end of the day, either pull with your d*ck in mind, or just build characters properly..and you'll be fine.
Also, i don't think the problem is how good Miyabi is as a character. Its more of how all her tools just make her "perfect" in any situation without you having to really grind to make her that good.
honestly the powercreeping in this game is not bad at all, Literally every character is busted in their own way, for example piper is a very f2p friendly unit to swap out instead of jane
@Tweedledum. I don't even believe in my opinion there's real power creep. Because everybody has a different playstyle. And as Good as miyabi is. She will never outdo Ben. That sound like a joke but it's not. Ben can literally just block any and everything and get plus effects off of that. Sure she could kill things the fastest but Ben can literally beat anything
Honestly I am waiting if Miyabi and her special status as a void hunter makes her an exeption being this strong or if it goes the HSR route and it becomes the new standard like with Acheron and her special status as an emenator.
Acheron is still a bit unique in the sense that while there have been released characters that are on par with her in SOME aspects (Feixaio is her peer in single target damage, other characters have similar all shield shred, for example), there hasn't been a character (yet) that brings that total package of damage and every situation utility like Acheron does. Hoyoverse clearly has certain characters that they overpower (Archons in Genshin, Eminators in Honkai, and now Void Hunters in ZZZ), but in those other games, they have remained exceptional even as the game has progressed. Raiden Shogun is still an immensely powerful main AND sub DPS, for example, and she was released in 2.2 iirc. There's certainly some power creep in all those titles, but I think Juice here is mistaking the power jump that is common for Hoyoverse's elite lore characters for a huge power curve all around that isn't really there.
@thomasknapp6434 i do agree in genshin tho in my opinion in oraxis Acheron might be unique on paper but in actuallity the difference are not that different. Lile her colorless toughness shredding for example, she just sucks in depleting the toughness bar of non electric weak enemies and you do notice it a lot when they are not electric weak while someone like firefly just inflicts fire as a weakness and Feixiao is much better at shredding any kind of weakness.
@@k.s.4292 I even mention Feixaio. The problem with Feixaio is that she is literally single-target only. Yes, she is Acheron's peer in that one aspect (and perhaps a shade better), but lacks literally ANYTHING outside out that.
@@thomasknapp6434 the thing is she might be Single target but her team still ends up killing the wave much faster/cleaner unless we are talking about PF since they are actually able to deal dmg outside of Feixiaos ult.
Unless we're talking M1 and above with Miyabi's Wengine, I don't even feel truly powercrept. My Anton, ANTON, is hitting for over 3 million damage during a stun phase. In my experience, no character even up to Miyabi is truly replacing one another. A lot more importance still falls on the builds and skills of the player. I know people who have dolphined or whaled on this game, acquiring multiple mindscapes, Wengines, almost all if not all of the characters available and still cannot get to floor 30 of the battle tower, or get 6 stars in deadly assault, or even complete shiryu defense. While I do think that these new characters are improving clear times, it doesn't change the fact that I and other people are still clearing the hardest content this game has at it's disposal with day 1 characters, drive sets, and Wengines. A fella did floor 25-100 of the battle tower with Billy, Anby, and Nicole. I think we are a very long ways out before content becomes not 3 star clearable with even day 1 characters.
3:13 kind of. But they can use different teams. Miyabi really wants to be played with an anomoly teammate for her stacks and then a support or stun to get her teammate bonus. Meanwhile Ellen wants full hypercarry team so stun and support or double support So for the new bossing gamemode (forgot the name for a sec) I played 1 team; Miyabi, Burnice, Lucy and 1 team; Ellen, Ceasar, soukaku. And that worked pretty well. So basically its the same thing as with genshin abyss. Bc you need multiple teams characters get to stay meta a bit longer in a sense.... its jist that starrail powercreeps so fast it barely helps. Yes they both really like using soukaku..... but thats kind of it for teammate overlap. Bc miyabi lightning or miyabi fire are just as good as pure ice focus miyabi
Miyabi is incredibly busted, you can do the endgame content just with her alone, the difference with the rest of units is insane. But she is an archon, so I kinda understand. We will see how broken Evelyn is, she should be on Jane/Yanagi/Zhu-Yuan levels
ngl but I kinda expect this since launch knowing what element Miyabi will be, but I still pull for Ellen anyway because shark maid, and she still hold, come back in clutch with deadly assault ballerina boss, and she'll have to be my 3rd DPS for future to come because it'll be some time before I attemp to pull any character again, Power crept might seem bad but luckily in this type of game you can just get good
Thats cap. M6 Ellen performs amazing and completly washed M0 Miyabi. Problem is, Miyabi has less room for failure and needs less to set up her DMG. While Ellen has more work behind it, still M6 Ellen outperforms M0 miyabi by a lot.
Bugs me when someone, in the lore of the game that leans heavily in to the lore, is powerful in the story so they play power gets complained about for being powerful (not that you’re complaining, I’m just venting 😂) same as in Genshin. If Mavuika isn’t stronger than the Knave, then what’s the point of portraying her as such in the story?
From what I’ve seen she’s not stronger. Better to play? That’s another story because it’s up to play style at that point and what she does best as a unit
i love the ZZZ story so trust me i'm fully aware that miyabi DESERVES the power! i do hope that she remains as the strongest & others don't immediately reach her level though
Been following you for a good while Juice, love your content. I'm glad to hear you talk about this kind of thing. Powercreep is a little scary but I hope it's just that Void Hunters are basically archons. I agree with your 6 month idea, but I hope that the fall off isn't extreme. I also love Lighter and don't want to see him or Qingyi become useless. I just enjoy how they play.
Got Ellen, was very frustrated bc she wasn't performing that well, finally got her in a good place last patch and now just replaced her with miyabi Was a shame really bc even when she was good i didn't make most of it
sure i pulled miyabi but I'll still do any endgame that needs ice weakness with ellen first. considering i don't even have her sig she has a pretty good build right now with nearly maxed out skill levels and she's been curb stomping endgame for me since 1.1
Oooo...glad I found your channel (thank you TH-cam algorithm). I restarted ZZZ since my Genshin account is maxed out and I'm able to play a second game without losing sleep. 🤣
Miyabi will only get powercrept by other void hunters realistically speaking. Even then if its one void hunter every 4 primary patches its gonna be a while before we see another ice void hunter, so the shelf life of that group may be much longer than expected.
I know a lot of people are disagreeing with the power creep but it is a clear sign of power creep. Miyabi M0 destroys M0 Ellen. Now I would be raising the panic alarm if M0 Evelyn does similar damage to M0 Miyabi. Only time will tell.
I think all the void hunters we are gonna get are going to be the strongest characters on purpose. She even has her own unique version of Ice. I'd assume all the void hunters will have their own stronger version of their element.
Deadly assault is a wake up especially when I can't even 3 star Pompey with my lv60 M2 R5 Starlight engine soldier 11(3000 attack, 40+ cc and 152cd) and moderately okay built supports. Closest I've gotten was 19.5k
I'm barely breaking 14k on my Soldier 11 team with the Deadly Assault challenge and she's paired with Caesar and Lucy. You have copies and I'm dreading you're struggling. Did you get 20k now?
Been using Lycaon as a main dps and I still love it. Not too worried about powercreep and been having fun with my roster being a main dps at times. Nice to see a Crit Lighter, I would do the same (will get him next time for my Lycaon).
With gear kits making Miyabi and Yanagi strong during the banner quest line. Maybe ZZZ devs can buff old agents like Ellen Joe by giving them earnable kits that can be used in all the games agent combat modes to keep all of them up to date with the current game content.
Subscribing because I also have M1O1 Crit DPS Lighter and cleared Shiyu Def 7 with him, altho with Burnice as sub and to keep up the Inferno Metal. But yeah, Miyabi is really busted, good thing I won the weapon banner for her, now Im gonna farm Shiyu as much as I can before the Lighter rerun.
Haha i just came from a discourse claiming Miyabi is bad without her Sig. I was like nah she's ZZZ's Nueve. AOE check, single target check, big m0 numbers check, flexible teams check. She just gets the biggest power boost out of any of the character from her sig and its not particularly universally good on other charactersof the same weapon type. Who else does that, oh Nueve. If HP inflation will happen it will be in response to her just like it was for Nueve in Genshin (though to a lesser extent). Now instead of more inflation we just have Natlan bias abyss lineups. Oh clear with DPS lighter, nice achievement. Hopefully we get a solid 3 main patches like in Genshin before 4 star only clears become very difficult. Hats off to whoever can so it now in Genshin. Also ive been around since 1.0. My first clear was Ellen on one side Zhuyuan on the other. Now i just go anomaly so i can ignore stun windows.
Im pretty sure there will be character awakenings at a point (Thats when a old character gets an extra set of kits when their maxed out to keep up with a new character) BUT I don't believe there is true power creep where a character just is the same character but better. Theres still team builds and different playstyles that make them different.
As an ice main, i have all of the ice chars at mow1 and soukaku is on w5 of her wengine. When i did not understand how to play harumasa for the shiyu of the defense, ellen carried fr fr(used miyabi on non ice weak with 2 supports) Edit: Mandatory "F2PPP BTWWWWW" ragebait
Miyabi is a anomaly dps but she also needs that crit rate mainstat on her 4th disc drive and crit rate and dmg on sub stats to be OP. Evidently Hoyoverse is bringing crit rate back with Miyabi keeping those Ellen Joe players in mind otherwise Miyabi could be built without it.
Secondary Nekomata main here, the endgame is very do able, I do have Miyabi with her signature so of course she will do better, but Nekomata doesn’t really have that big of a problem. Sure she will get power crept, but I think the endgame will be do able at the end of or at least half of the 2.X era. Who knows, she might get an Agent that supports her well.
Power creep in ZZZ is far less frustrating than that in HSR. HSR is a complete data game, and the only way to be stronger is to invest more in pulling and relics, and relic hunting is just f-ing pure luck. However, in ZZZ there is always room in your game playing, proven by those Billy-only tower 100+ stage challenges.
Oh, Zhu Yuan will most definitely be power crept into oblivion, and I suspect this will happen quite soon. The thing is, this whole "stun and unload all your damage in that small window" thing doesn't really work well, no matter the stunners you use. Yes, including the Lighter. Especially when bosses have shortened stun window. When they have higher anomaly resistance, that's fine, you just deal damage slower. You are still dealing it, and it's still a lot of damage. When they get out of stun phase faster, you are not dealing any meaningful damage. In the best case, you'll drop an ult and a few normal hits. And even if you get back to it quick, your ult won't be ready. In my case, Zhu Yuan especially sucks since I have literally ONE stunner on my account, and you have one guess who. So, not only I get to the damage phase slower than absolutely necessary, I barely deal any damage in the process. In short: anomaly characters are self-sufficient and consistent, burst damage dealers are neither of those. Oh, and BTW, there's a reason why HSR dropped the ball so hard. I felt something is really wrong with it right at launch and realized only much later when already dropped the game entirely. HSR is not a skill-based game. It works completely by the numbers. So, when the numbers scale up even a little, some characters simply fall below the "event horizon". In skill-based games, you can raise this bar in multiple different ways than just increasing health pool or raw damage numbers. That's why no-indicators mode exists in ZZZ, and that's why we got doppelgängers there. And even increasing raw damage on enemies doesn't make or break any existing characters (except pure shielders, I suppose).
ive used ellen from the start and ive played pretty much every day, i was pulling wengines for soft pity and i pulled miyabis wengine, then i pulled her and im torn lmfao might try run her with burnice so ellen can keep her lycoan/soukaku squad coz shes been my best character since i pulled her
i think 6 months to a year is a totally reasonable shelf life expectation personally, but i also tend to vertically invest a bit into characters i enjoy like miyabi i've gotten 1 copy of her engine and 2 copies of her so far and trying for a 3rd
First time viewer here - good musings. I despise power creep to a much larger extent than you do and I'm therefore somewhat disappointed by Miyabi's strength relative to the entire rest of the cast. But what they came out with is definitely preferable to more traditional power creep. Imagine if Miyabi had only 10-15 % more damage than Ellen while simultaneously being so much easier to play. That would truly have been to take a dump on Ellen fans and only on Ellen fans. Let's hope Miyabi remains the exception in accordance with her status in the lore. I hope characters have a much longer shelf life than 6 months, but we'll see if the devs (and the fans) allow for that slow of a pace.
What do you mean shelf life? Their two ways of viewing it actual viability. Or dps. If you view purely in dps Jane doe power creeped Ellen immediately as she was a better on field dps. But actual viability billy is still useable. So ellen is most definitely fine.
Day zero low spender building my 17th L60 unit meow. I only go L60 E9 W60 on all my units though and don't go hard with min maxing disks. I still play my Ellen, Von, Soukaku team for ICE missions and save my Miyabi, Yanagi, Soukaku team to keep things fresh. My strat is to build a mono team for each element and teams for each faction (with their Bangboo's), then just bounce between each depending on mood, which is quite fun and keeps older characters in the mix. Nekomata works fine with Anby and Nicole.
Sorry, but in the lore she’s a void hunter, one of the most powerful people in the lore, “one of the key players in the suppression of the catastrophe”. If she wasn’t the most power units so far, that would be dumb. Characters have to be powerful sometimes and some more than others. “Power creep” in games like ZZZ, or Honkai Impact, doesn’t matter when the game prioritizes skill and you can clear everything without the Meta or most powerful characters.
Did you not read the comment? She’s a void hunter. If she doesn’t do more damage then what’s the point in her being portrayed as powerful? There will be a character that’s more powerful than her in the future because they’re portrayed that way in the story.
@@tristhekid Thats not how gacha games work. In less than a year every single tom, dick and harry that releases will do more dmg than her. Her title is irrelevant.
@@JayTheBoss242 so you'd rsther have a Void Huntwr that's way weaker than what the game portrays? Then what's the point of making playable Void Hunters in the first place?
I'm quite new in ZZZ and gatcha games in general but all i know is that i'll never pull for characters i don't like. I wanted miyabi because she's cool and cute, good for me she's strong, but honestly i couldn't care less. I love anby so i didn't pull for qing yi. I want zhu yuan so i'll pull on her rerun even if she ends up getting powercrept by another character. In the end, gatcha games are pve solo games that have no real online competition, and i feel like playing them to have fun and enjoy your characters is all that matters. If you really want to flex your perfect micro just play an online game with real matchmaking and rating (ps: i'm not hating on those wanting to 100% perfect clear all the content and over-optimize, just saying it's probably not the POINT of such games)
I think we will be seeing this pattern again when it comes to future Void Hunters and equivalent. Given how receptive the devs are to feedback I don't think we have to worry for the future, especially when they removed the TV mode deadass because people (not all) didn't like it. Honkai Star Rail and Dragon Ball Legends are definitely up there for me when it comes to gacha games with insane powercreep. Also in regards to Ellen I don't think she's that cooked if we get a shenhe type ice buffer in the future. She's still very useable.
Not really fussed about Miyabi. Is she better than Ellen? Definitely. So much better that I'd shelf another DPS unit I pulled on my limited mostly-F2P budget for her? Nah, not yet at least. I'm gonna just focus on getting to my 300 standard pulls so the uncomfortably attractive bondage wolfman stops avoiding me and my mono-Ice team is complete. That should be done sometime before Evelyn releases, and she'll complete my Fire team. After that, I can either focus on upgrading my electric/ice/fire team members as needed, or also work on building physical and ether teams.
Power creep is scary but the devs have a safety net built in if everything goes to hell, if they decide to use it: raising the level cap. I will admit that it is already a pain to fully build a unit but if they decide to raise character and weapon level to 70 in 2.0. then my Ellen could clear even with stronger foes coming. It is not a perfect solution and you can't use this trick every X.0 version because of diminishing returns but it is perfectly fine to use it when the game is new and the devs don't really know what a "fine tuned unit" looks like in general. Hopefully in the future they learn where the line is and they don't have to use that trick a bunch of times.
the annoying thing is the mobs in the new deadly assault and whatever is so catered towards having miyabi is ridiculous. i think it was the new shiyus 5-7 that are ridiculously tanky now that miyabi is out. if you said you did it with stunners then idk but i couldn't get S ranks on the new later shiyus.
Nah. People have been clearing Shiyu using A-rank DPS, the most common being Piper and Billy. It's still manageable atm and I hope it stays this way moving forward.
Why use one over the other if you can use both? New 3-team mode allows it, considering 2 sides are ice weak. Hell, you can use them in the same team even. It's a meme team, but it works perfectly
Compare Miyabi, the strongest character right now, to Ellen is quite unfair. Miyabi team can literally do everything now. Enemy weak to physical? Miyabi Enemy weak to ice? Miyabi Enemy weak to fire? Miyabi Like, she is a god-tier character, of course she "replaced" Ellen, but then in the same time, she replace everyone cause how broken she is
Jane doe was my breakthrough to finish shiyu. I’m just glad meta doesn’t really matter to most people cuz there’s no online competition to push people.
They are staying true to the lore, because Miyabi is just bonkers in the story. As for the power creep, Miyabi is strong and really easy to use, but she is not HSR level broken, my Ellen is still extremely good and solid. Hopefully this will not change, because the power creep in HSR was one of the two reasons I dropped the game in 2.3, and it is only getting worse with each patch (let's not even talk about the amount of new 5-star characters at this point, it's ridiculous). But even if it does get so bad, it will never be as bad as HSR because this is an action game, and you can always make a character work with some skill, which is not true for a turn-based game.
I don't know if Miyabi was intended to power creep Ellen Joe since they are two different specialties but she kinda does. Which is too bad, Ellen Joe was top meta on launch and I miss trouncing everything with her. I mean, I still can, but new hotness is right there. LOL! And I agree about factions adding depth and preventing direct power creep. Besides, they could add a killer support to Victoria Housekeeping and Ellen is back on top. But I like Miyabi a lot, so I don't mind her taking her place at the top of meta. I'm super excited to see what's next for your ZZZ content!
you make a good point with new agents joining certain factions, i never actually considered that before perhaps having 2 ice characters will be good for the 3-team mode? if they ever put in 2 ice-weak bosses at once; but to be fair, of course ellen was good before as she was the first limited, though i am surprised at how fast she became mid thank you for watching man!!! :D i'm looking forward to making more too
Dang Nekomata out here catching random strays, but seriously though, if you can clear with dps Lighter, you can probably clear twice as fast with a properly invested Nekomata versus physical weak enemies.
True. And people still clear endgame content using A-rank DPS (and mind you, we haven't had a new A-rank DPS since 1.0) so if someone complains saying "I can't S-rank this Shiyu using [insert DPS name/s here] wtf is this Hoyo???", it's just them admitting that they have skill issue.
back in 1.0, i was telling people in big discords like prydwen to not pull Ellen, if they just wanted a meta unit. Cuz they will eventually release Miyabi. And she WILL be better. There was no argument made about that. Its the reason Miyabi never made it to the 2nd and 3rd beta test of the game. She was just so much better design-wise, and power level-wise then any other character present in that beta test, that everybody just kept playing her, and shit was not being BETA TESTED. But simps and people with bad decision making skills did not listen. And they essentially wasted 70-320 pulls on ellen who ended up being shit on by Miyabi literally 3 patches after. 120 DAYS WAS ALL IT TOOK(if we dont count the time 1.0 lasted).
You guys shouldn’t justify powerceep with lore, because if you do, then it’s way too easy to sell you a brand new, stronger character All they have to do is create a small story on how and why this character is better in lore than another, and you’re sold ?
We’ll see if miyabi gets powercrept in 4 patches as the top dps (not top ice dps) , if she does get powercrept this game will end up having the same level of power creep as hsr (in which case I shall quit this game as well )
For now powercreep seems ok - Evelyn should be around Zhu Yuan / Harumasa levels of power. Unless you have lighter which buffs her easily to Yanagi Levels of power, probably above. Evelyn/Lighter/Astra will probably be the best fire dps team while Miyabi/Yanagi/Astra will be the best ice/electricity team combined.
The anomaly meta currently is kinda aggravating only because like you said you can clear end game with pretty close to any unit even a stun dps build can do it. But with that I have almost as premium of a Zhu Yuan team as you can have minus sig weapons and cinema's and the clear times between this team and every anomaly dps is really big. To use Zhu Yuan you need a good stun so I got Qingy she needs a support obviously you use Nicole every chance I had I got weapon copies and cinema's for Nicole but that's not enough rotations and skill level comes into playing this group at it's best. The anomaly group don't need same factions stun units hell they don't even need shared element types they all actually play better in mixed elemental teams. I do hope these anomaly units are just hyper-bloom for this game and skill based dps units make a new rise or they don't make it to where my dps units fall off and cant compete anymore in end game. I should also note if I make a mistake with my Zhu Yuan team it hurts clear times massively if I make a mistake with Miyabi or any of the anomaly main dps units it literally doesn't matter they still wreck things with little to no issues
My honest opinion Qingy is in a better state then Lighter not to say he's bad cause he is not but she's far more universal then he is literally only needing to be in a team with a dps and that's her passive. Then you need to just get good at dodge countering and applying her attack buff
Cause power creep isn't that drastic. It's usually bit by bit some most power creep. Not every dps should be automatically better a dps from a patch ago. Also that bad game design and hoyo knows it power creep has to not happen every patch
1:25 the pure fiction mode? Pure fiction is mobbing, the new mode is mostly weekly bosses so way more like apocalyptic shadow. But really its a copy paste of the memorial arena mode from HI3
You see, i dont like Powercreep. But here it kinda just feels right. Miyabi is by lore one of the strongest Characters in the Verse and her standing out just makes sense. Unlike Genshin, were some characters who make hairstyles or just ride a Shark can keep up with GODS: I prefer characters like "Casual People" or "Mediocre Fighter" being below characters who are godlike. Imagine we get that one Girl that makes Milkshakes and she has suddenly attacks were she does Nukes
Nah my Ellen Lighter Lycaon team is REALLY STRONG. Enemies being stunned so fast and Ellen has ample of time to dish out damage. And Imo Ellen and Miyabi covers different shoes. Ellen is more to traditional crit stun dps whereas Miyabi uses an anomaly playstyle. Miyabi can't use a stunner but Ellen can. In Deadly assault I use Miyabi team to clear boss 1 and Ellen for boss 3. Yes Miyabi is undeniably stronger than Ellen (and pretty much all dps actually), but their supports are different.
Ellen and Miyabi doesnt cover different shoes. In everything Ellen does, Miyabi does it better. She completely replaces Ellen in her crit stun teams while also dishing out insanely huge AOE and anomaly attribute damage effortlessly. She also excels at disorder teams and can easily dominate the shiyu defense solo. At this point, there’s actually no point for getting Ellen anymore unless you’re a diehard fan or something. The only hope for Ellen to comeback is when Hoyo releases an Ice Support that doesnt work for Miyabi. An ice support that only activates its core passive when paired with attackers or victoria housekeeping faction members.
@lexxxie_52004 Yeah I agree with all you said. Imo Miyabi is overtuned especially her AoE. I'm just speaking for myself. The way I want to build my account is each element has 2 dps, one is crit and one is Anomaly and Ellen and Miyabi have covered that respectively. But yeah Miyabi outperforms her by a lot.
Um, first real powercreep? Seems like every new unit so far has outdone the one just before it with a comfortable margin. Granted it has been A-ranks and standard banner mostly that were affected whereas Ellen our first limited just got sent to the shadow realm. Sure she wasn’t in the best place even before Miyabi, I’ll agree. But putting this in HSR terms this is the equivalent to if Fu Xuan was actually quantum Acheron and immediately powercrept every DPS in the game and made Seele completely pointless. Now sure MoC is far more taxing on your units than Shiyu defense is, we’ll see if that trend continues and if it does and Miyabi’s is an outlier then we were worried for nothing. BTW crit Lighter is based, I don’t use him as main DPS but I did build a lot of crit on him 😎
I disagree ellen being useless, i have miyabi and ellen both with their signatures and i swap them from time to time cause both are viable and fun to play, ellen has a lot of technical play and miyabi has a lot of i frames on ber animations ellen just needs work and care to work properly
Miyabi being powerfully until 3.0 ? Yeah of course, that’s what we said with Dan heng il in star rail back in 1.3, that absolutely powercrept the whole roaster of characters we had at that point And please for the love of god stop with all that "it’s lore accurate" nonsense, Acheron was power creeping everyone too in 2.0, and she fell off in less than 6months, firefly straight up destroyed her in terms of both dps and usability, and right after we got Feixiao, I’ve not used my "lore accurate power creeping Acheron" since 2.4
You're not wrong about what is happening in star rail but i also don't really think its a great one to one comparison either. I think there is a lot more the devs can do with an action game to differentiate characters or add difficulty without directly powercreeping or just adding more hp to mobs. Will we see powercreep and hp inflation? almost certainly but i would be genuinely surprised if it happens as quickly as it is happening in star rail.
Lighter simp? guess I’ll subscribe, I’ll also say after much testing with lighter, inferno metal is trash just use 4pc woodpecker and 2pc branch and blade, it’s significantly better and way more consistent. Your out of stun damage is way higher and your in stun damage is only slightly lower. If up you use burnice with your DPS lighter then inferno is best in slot, but…. If you use burnice with lighter then your pretending lighter is the DPS while the true DPS is burnice so yea… lol Edit: hope u can m6 lighter next time it’s worth it lol
i can't wait to M6 him he's so hot i need to, hello fellow lighter enjoyer!!! alright tysm for this, i had no idea, after i max crown him & get all his cores i'll farm him a new set :D at least he's still clearing endgame as-is, but i can't wait to see what his DMG will be like on woodpecker + i don't have burnice, i'm a full-on LIGHTER MAIN! HECK YEAH
Evelyn is ZZZs first try on making competitive units (to voidhunters) without inflating numbers. Voidhunters are meant to be OP. Evelyn doesn't have those numbers that make voidhunters OP. In fact in beta she is just around Zhu Yuan levels of stats. However she has her own gimmick that might make her competitive with void hunters
Zzz has the best balance out of all of Hoyoverses games. Tge only characters that will get power creeped will be the standard banner ones. If you have Lighter you won’t be using Koleda. If you pull for Evilen you won’t be using solder 11 so on and so on. Ellen still has a place. Sometimes you need 2 ice DPS. If your teams can put out 20.000 damage you’ll be fine.
nah those perform just about the same the big problem is Ellen relying on that dash charge attack even Caesar can't save Ellen in the end game since it take 1 hit and the shield is gone
i've only been playing for about a month so still learning the meta, that's fair i see miyabi as direct powercreep because of the weakness system though even if you have both jane & yanagi, you'll use them on phys weak & electric weak respectively, right? whereas with miyabi, she removed ellen from the meta completely
Power creep in ZZZ is as bad as hsr but Miyabi isn't a power creep, she's a killing blow for all attacker agents in the game. Zhu Yuan, Ellen and Harumasa all of them are trash limited units, at this point they need a complete rework or they should get added in to the standard banner pull. Anomaly right now is a different monster specially with new ultimate system.
A : Oh s**t Miyabi powercreep my other dps that I build with all my heart, this is BS !!! B : I can still get all the reward from all the content using Nekomata you know. A : Shut Up !!! Miyabi can clear the content in 2 seconds, no other character can. B : But it still give the same reward. A : True, but miyabi can 2 seconds a content you know. B : Dude, no one care. A normal conversation in every gacha game when a new character release.
![[1.4 ZZZ] The story so far - Zenless Zone Zero Season One](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uOX7DhZbAEo/mqdefault.jpg)
I heavily disagree with Ellen "never being that good". She was a top tier DPS on release all the way through to just now with Miyabi's release.
From a 1.2 player standpoint it makes sense, even as soon as the Zhu banner people said Ellen Joe mama was getting power crept by the Pub Sec duo, and subsequently Jane Seth rom-combo. First limited dps always gets the shaft in gachas (at least it isn't Klee bad)
@@whiten00b jiyan in wuwa is still near the top though
ellen really was the classic example of cluncky to play and not that strong, but i do hope miyabi will be the peak dps for the next year or so, else we're heading for a very unhealthy powercreep situation
I second this, as a release player
@@ganyumaindayone1112 kinda false equivalence but understandable I don't know how wuwas power creep works, Ellen falls cause of miyabi being on field ice but even so is the second best attack unit, in an anomaly focused meta.
@@whiten00b ellen problem is more akin to her gameplay tbh than her damage
she is really cluncky to play, at first wasnt an issue because the mob were kinda passive (apart from the twin and even those are pretty tame ) now compare it to current boss that are non stop aggroing your ass, from jane doe to the motorbike dude etc...
i wish they used the excuse of changing the gameplay with 1.4 to buff both ellen and zhu yuan considering how strong anomaly is compared to attackers right now, time will tell
in wuwa the powercreep so far is kinda slow, genshin early days like but game is young so will have to wait and see too
I think Miyabi being a void hunter definitely influences it. So far, zzz feels great in power scaling. I can use the characters I like and still clear.
now only patch 1.4, let's see what happens next. the fact that miyabi m0 is stronger than m6 characters of the first patch is very alarming.
@@crabstick3368 hopefully Miyabi is an outlier. If I can't keep up with the powercreep like in HSR, I'll just drop the game since I'm not invested that much into the story.
i mean at the end of the day as long as i can clear with my crit DPS lighter, i'm happy
hope you all are having a splendid holiday season! hoping to make some more videos on here tomorrow :D we'll see how things pan out! otherwise, please do contribute your opinions on this matter ^^
DPS LIGHTER ME TOO REAL
I thought DPS Lighter was the only right way to go about him. Oh well...
The devs have shown that they do listen and have drastically changed a lot of the game in response to feedback. Having released this much after both genshin and hsr, they should be able see how the different games handle the same issue and make adjustments along the way. So far, i think its been handled reasonably well, after all, I'm a Billy main (despite having every limited character) and can clear the content.
In my opinion Ellen doesn't has a DPS issue it's more so that she just feels bad to play at M0 because the only way to get her stacks is to do a dash attack wich without a shielder feels kinda bad to pull off. Plus she has a lot of good supports like Cesar, Lycon, Soukaku and Lighter. Also somtimes we still need 2 ice teams like in the current Deadly Assult wich also indicates that we still need more then just one DPS units of the same element in the future.
Yes, was using Ellen since day1 as M0. Was kinda annoying to play. Ceasar fixed it - but I used Cesar on Zhu. Poor Ellen.
I 3 starred the ballerina boss in deadly assault with m0 Ellen cause her clunky dash attack and combos always managed to kill the clone for the extra 200 points lol.
poor Ellen :(
for the general concerns about power creep, the Evelyn dreams seem to suggest it won't be that bad and that the 'void hunter = archon/harbinger/emanator tier' theory is likely to check out.
So, I actually foresaw this exact issue - Miyabi was always going to be insanely strong. She's was so hyped and so built up in the lore that she had to be good. That being said, it remains to be seen if the powercreep is a real issue. Miyabi is most likely an outlier - she's the "Acheron" or the "Archon" of version 1. I think the Venti / Kazuha comparison is a good one. Sure Venti was only around for a bit as top dog, but he never became completely irrelevant, and even though Kazuha came in 1.6, he is still META today (Xilonen is a side-grade). I think Miyabi is going to be META for a long time; the best anomaly DPS in the game for a long time.
I think what will most likely happen is that ZZZ will have another category of damage / another way to do damage. Maybe CRIT will get really good, or we'll get new supports to bring up other characters (like Lighter or Burnice) or maybe faction resonance will get really good buffs. There's lots of room here besides "new character do bigger damage than old character".
I don't think ZZZ is going to do what HSR did: powercreep after powercreep. We're still building the roster out and learning what's good in the game and while Anomaly is really good right now, it may not be the be all end all for the life of the game.
The problem with HSR is that it's pretty much a turn based game that heavily depends on team comps and the "right" units, also the HP inflation. It's kinda hard to balance, and every new unit needs to be shinier than the previous
But with Genshin and ZZZ, it's kinda like. You can do whatever tf you want. Go ahead and build a DPS Barbara, a crit Kokomi, a healer Wanderer, a crit DPS Lighter, literally anything. Those rely heavily on the COMBAT and BUILD aspect, so what you do with your teams isn't that huge of a deal. Miyabi just happens to be really strong, but it's hard to really "powercreep" properly in an action type of game
I personally hope that Miyabi is, for a lack of a better way to put it, ZZZ’s Ganyu moment.
As someone who doesn't play Genshin, what does that mean?
@@TerrorbyteTC Character that is so strong it hurts the game and made them reconsider their power creep. Genshin still has a bunch of older character in S tier, unlike HSR for example that just kept power creeping and where the release date of a character almost exactly maps to its place in the tier list.
Ganyu was never this good compared to the rest lol
@@fzhs7030 Well clearly she was good enough to make everyone on the internet cry about power creep
both are ice animals :D
Time will tell if I'm right but I'm thinking it may be a matter of Miyabi being our first Void Hunter rather than traditional power creep- but, as soon as we see the next two in action it'll be pretty quick to see how wrong I might be on that and if we're for realsies in power creep mode 1.4 forward
Also to add- seeing your party in gameplay being Lighter + 2 supports is so "hell yeah", love the setup aha
WE LOVE CRIT DPS LIGHTER IN THIS HOUSEHOLD!!!
yep, here's hoping that evelyn isn't on miyabi's level, or else we're cooked
If you look at beta calcs, Astra Yao isn't that much better than Nicole for Zhu Yuan, and Evelyn is roughly on-par damage wise with Zhu Yuan. So it seems likely that Void Hunters are intentionally more powerful than the rest of the limited characters.
I very much hope that will be the case for ZZZ, HSR powercreep shenanigan still haunts me until this day
I hope they go with the Genshin approach where you have a very select number of characters that can be considered "broken" but with all other DPSs having a very minimal difference in power or just being sidegrades of each other.
True.
And let's not forget, that in an action game, it is much easier to work with "weak" characters even if there is power creep.
@@OnigoroshiZero especially because this game leans more into your own skill and understanding of the characters' kits. With the right builds and setup, you can pretty much easily clear the content, only takes a little more effort compared to just getting Miyabi
Someone like Harumasa still does the job, even if he's not as strong. But you do get him for free, so all the better. You still spend a good portion of the time dodging and switching characters, so it's honestly not a big deal
Now HSR powercreep, on the other hand.......
For the people who complain that "Deadly Assault Bringer is made for Miyabi this is bs!!1!", you don't even have to clear ALL the nodes. All you have to do is get 6 stars (aka clear TWO nodes with 3 stars each) and you can get all the polychromes rewards. What's the point of trying too hard for some very little rewards (the 7-9 stars rewards) that you can get from Shiyu Defense, a gamemode that you should be able to S-rank if you've played ZZZ pre-1.3?
If the ZZZ devs are really that stingy then they would've given us polychromes for getting 9 stars in Deadly Assault.
Power creep is literally built into any gacha. it’s inevitable. What you should look at more is if you enjoy the character’s gameplay loop. I don’t pull if a character is strong necessarily, I pull because they’re fun to play. And if they happen to be obscenely OP, well all the better.
Ppl comparing Ellen to Miyabi is like comparing S tier to SS tier. She’s definitely meant to be like a Raiden, who’s useful long into the game even after the meta changes. When Ellen’s compared to other S tiers the discrepancy isn’t as staggering. Sure she got power crept but for bosses she still felt better to me than say zhu yuan.
> Power creep is literally built into any gacha.
Facts. People either need to understand that, or stop denying. Power creep exists even if one doesn't engage with the modes that demands more damage per minute/second. At the end of the day, either pull with your d*ck in mind, or just build characters properly..and you'll be fine.
Disagree. Dragonball Legends power creep is atrocious because they didn't listen to their audience
BUT it is still fixable to this day
Also, i don't think the problem is how good Miyabi is as a character. Its more of how all her tools just make her "perfect" in any situation without you having to really grind to make her that good.
honestly the powercreeping in this game is not bad at all, Literally every character is busted in their own way, for example piper is a very f2p friendly unit to swap out instead of jane
@Tweedledum. I don't even believe in my opinion there's real power creep. Because everybody has a different playstyle.
And as Good as miyabi is. She will never outdo Ben.
That sound like a joke but it's not. Ben can literally just block any and everything and get plus effects off of that. Sure she could kill things the fastest but Ben can literally beat anything
Honestly I am waiting if Miyabi and her special status as a void hunter makes her an exeption being this strong or if it goes the HSR route and it becomes the new standard like with Acheron and her special status as an emenator.
Acheron is still a bit unique in the sense that while there have been released characters that are on par with her in SOME aspects (Feixaio is her peer in single target damage, other characters have similar all shield shred, for example), there hasn't been a character (yet) that brings that total package of damage and every situation utility like Acheron does.
Hoyoverse clearly has certain characters that they overpower (Archons in Genshin, Eminators in Honkai, and now Void Hunters in ZZZ), but in those other games, they have remained exceptional even as the game has progressed. Raiden Shogun is still an immensely powerful main AND sub DPS, for example, and she was released in 2.2 iirc. There's certainly some power creep in all those titles, but I think Juice here is mistaking the power jump that is common for Hoyoverse's elite lore characters for a huge power curve all around that isn't really there.
@thomasknapp6434 i do agree in genshin tho in my opinion in oraxis Acheron might be unique on paper but in actuallity the difference are not that different. Lile her colorless toughness shredding for example, she just sucks in depleting the toughness bar of non electric weak enemies and you do notice it a lot when they are not electric weak while someone like firefly just inflicts fire as a weakness and Feixiao is much better at shredding any kind of weakness.
@@k.s.4292 I even mention Feixaio. The problem with Feixaio is that she is literally single-target only. Yes, she is Acheron's peer in that one aspect (and perhaps a shade better), but lacks literally ANYTHING outside out that.
@@thomasknapp6434 the thing is she might be Single target but her team still ends up killing the wave much faster/cleaner unless we are talking about PF since they are actually able to deal dmg outside of Feixiaos ult.
Hu Tao crept Diluc before 1.x was done, I'm sure it's just early DPSs being early DPSs
klee is a better example since diluc isnt limited
@@justalg Klee was worse than diluc though
This will be like HSR where the their players deny Powercreep is terrible until its too late.
Unless we're talking M1 and above with Miyabi's Wengine, I don't even feel truly powercrept. My Anton, ANTON, is hitting for over 3 million damage during a stun phase. In my experience, no character even up to Miyabi is truly replacing one another. A lot more importance still falls on the builds and skills of the player. I know people who have dolphined or whaled on this game, acquiring multiple mindscapes, Wengines, almost all if not all of the characters available and still cannot get to floor 30 of the battle tower, or get 6 stars in deadly assault, or even complete shiryu defense. While I do think that these new characters are improving clear times, it doesn't change the fact that I and other people are still clearing the hardest content this game has at it's disposal with day 1 characters, drive sets, and Wengines. A fella did floor 25-100 of the battle tower with Billy, Anby, and Nicole. I think we are a very long ways out before content becomes not 3 star clearable with even day 1 characters.
3:13 kind of. But they can use different teams. Miyabi really wants to be played with an anomoly teammate for her stacks and then a support or stun to get her teammate bonus. Meanwhile Ellen wants full hypercarry team so stun and support or double support
So for the new bossing gamemode (forgot the name for a sec) I played 1 team; Miyabi, Burnice, Lucy and 1 team; Ellen, Ceasar, soukaku. And that worked pretty well. So basically its the same thing as with genshin abyss. Bc you need multiple teams characters get to stay meta a bit longer in a sense.... its jist that starrail powercreeps so fast it barely helps.
Yes they both really like using soukaku..... but thats kind of it for teammate overlap. Bc miyabi lightning or miyabi fire are just as good as pure ice focus miyabi
Miyabi is incredibly busted, you can do the endgame content just with her alone, the difference with the rest of units is insane. But she is an archon, so I kinda understand. We will see how broken Evelyn is, she should be on Jane/Yanagi/Zhu-Yuan levels
i hope she's like yanagi-tier, broken but not void-hunter level
I been using an C4 Koleda to clear stuff in under a min for months now... Slowly Evolving her team. One of my best team to be honest...
Can't tell whether that's a blessing of curse. Mind if you tell me what team your running with that koleda
@@thefearturkey6944 well now it's Burnice, and lighter.
ngl but I kinda expect this since launch knowing what element Miyabi will be, but I still pull for Ellen anyway because shark maid,
and she still hold, come back in clutch with deadly assault ballerina boss, and she'll have to be my 3rd DPS for future to come because it'll be some time before I attemp to pull any character again,
Power crept might seem bad but luckily in this type of game you can just get good
my m2 ellen is worse than my m0 miyabi and ive heard m6 ellen is morse than m0 miyabi
They did Ellen so dirty but it is what it is. Ellen still has the better character design.
m6w1 ellen is worst than m0w1 miyabi for sure espacially if u add yanagi into the mix
Thats cap. M6 Ellen performs amazing and completly washed M0 Miyabi. Problem is, Miyabi has less room for failure and needs less to set up her DMG. While Ellen has more work behind it, still M6 Ellen outperforms M0 miyabi by a lot.
@@ganyumaindayone1112btw why a lot people says to make W1 on Miyabi? M2 is understandable (it makes her solo op truck) but why W1?
@@SoloKazamathere is a 40% difference between her signature and f2p options.
Bugs me when someone, in the lore of the game that leans heavily in to the lore, is powerful in the story so they play power gets complained about for being powerful (not that you’re complaining, I’m just venting 😂) same as in Genshin. If Mavuika isn’t stronger than the Knave, then what’s the point of portraying her as such in the story?
Fr
Imagine if Arlechino is better than Mavuika in every metric. Because apparently she is the only one who never loses
From what I’ve seen she’s not stronger. Better to play? That’s another story because it’s up to play style at that point and what she does best as a unit
Yup, void hunters should be the best agents in the game, but the content shouldn't be balanced around them
i love the ZZZ story so trust me i'm fully aware that miyabi DESERVES the power! i do hope that she remains as the strongest & others don't immediately reach her level though
Been following you for a good while Juice, love your content. I'm glad to hear you talk about this kind of thing. Powercreep is a little scary but I hope it's just that Void Hunters are basically archons. I agree with your 6 month idea, but I hope that the fall off isn't extreme. I also love Lighter and don't want to see him or Qingyi become useless. I just enjoy how they play.
At the end of the day, only time will tell....or check back in two months.
Got Ellen, was very frustrated bc she wasn't performing that well, finally got her in a good place last patch and now just replaced her with miyabi
Was a shame really bc even when she was good i didn't make most of it
sure i pulled miyabi but I'll still do any endgame that needs ice weakness with ellen first. considering i don't even have her sig she has a pretty good build right now with nearly maxed out skill levels and she's been curb stomping endgame for me since 1.1
that's fair!
Oooo...glad I found your channel (thank you TH-cam algorithm). I restarted ZZZ since my Genshin account is maxed out and I'm able to play a second game without losing sleep. 🤣
Miyabi will only get powercrept by other void hunters realistically speaking. Even then if its one void hunter every 4 primary patches its gonna be a while before we see another ice void hunter, so the shelf life of that group may be much longer than expected.
I mean, shes a void hunter...
She needs to be strong.
But if other characters come and surpass miyabi, were gonna have a real issue in ZZZ
I know a lot of people are disagreeing with the power creep but it is a clear sign of power creep. Miyabi M0 destroys M0 Ellen. Now I would be raising the panic alarm if M0 Evelyn does similar damage to M0 Miyabi. Only time will tell.
yeah same here, i want evelyn to be good, but please not miyabi level
I think all the void hunters we are gonna get are going to be the strongest characters on purpose. She even has her own unique version of Ice. I'd assume all the void hunters will have their own stronger version of their element.
Deadly assault is a wake up especially when I can't even 3 star Pompey with my lv60 M2 R5 Starlight engine soldier 11(3000 attack, 40+ cc and 152cd) and moderately okay built supports. Closest I've gotten was 19.5k
I'm barely breaking 14k on my Soldier 11 team with the Deadly Assault challenge and she's paired with Caesar and Lucy. You have copies and I'm dreading you're struggling.
Did you get 20k now?
sounds like skill issue
I got 22k+ with my Ben team with Lighter + Lucy supporting him. Either s11 is pure ass or you're not trying hard enough.
I finished mine. it doesn't mean it was easy on the first night. Of course, a few attempts were necessary.
Been using Lycaon as a main dps and I still love it.
Not too worried about powercreep and been having fun with my roster being a main dps at times.
Nice to see a Crit Lighter, I would do the same (will get him next time for my Lycaon).
With gear kits making Miyabi and Yanagi strong during the banner quest line. Maybe ZZZ devs can buff old agents like Ellen Joe by giving them earnable kits that can be used in all the games agent combat modes to keep all of them up to date with the current game content.
Subscribing because I also have M1O1 Crit DPS Lighter and cleared Shiyu Def 7 with him, altho with Burnice as sub and to keep up the Inferno Metal.
But yeah, Miyabi is really busted, good thing I won the weapon banner for her, now Im gonna farm Shiyu as much as I can before the Lighter rerun.
Haha i just came from a discourse claiming Miyabi is bad without her Sig. I was like nah she's ZZZ's Nueve. AOE check, single target check, big m0 numbers check, flexible teams check. She just gets the biggest power boost out of any of the character from her sig and its not particularly universally good on other charactersof the same weapon type. Who else does that, oh Nueve. If HP inflation will happen it will be in response to her just like it was for Nueve in Genshin (though to a lesser extent). Now instead of more inflation we just have Natlan bias abyss lineups.
Oh clear with DPS lighter, nice achievement. Hopefully we get a solid 3 main patches like in Genshin before 4 star only clears become very difficult.
Hats off to whoever can so it now in Genshin.
Also ive been around since 1.0. My first clear was Ellen on one side Zhuyuan on the other. Now i just go anomaly so i can ignore stun windows.
Im pretty sure there will be character awakenings at a point
(Thats when a old character gets an extra set of kits when their maxed out to keep up with a new character)
BUT
I don't believe there is true power creep where a character just is the same character but better. Theres still team builds and different playstyles that make them different.
As an ice main, i have all of the ice chars at mow1 and soukaku is on w5 of her wengine. When i did not understand how to play harumasa for the shiyu of the defense, ellen carried fr fr(used miyabi on non ice weak with 2 supports)
Edit: Mandatory "F2PPP BTWWWWW" ragebait
Miyabi is a anomaly dps but she also needs that crit rate mainstat on her 4th disc drive and crit rate and dmg on sub stats to be OP. Evidently Hoyoverse is bringing crit rate back with Miyabi keeping those Ellen Joe players in mind otherwise Miyabi could be built without it.
Secondary Nekomata main here, the endgame is very do able, I do have Miyabi with her signature so of course she will do better, but Nekomata doesn’t really have that big of a problem. Sure she will get power crept, but I think the endgame will be do able at the end of or at least half of the 2.X era. Who knows, she might get an Agent that supports her well.
Power creep in ZZZ is far less frustrating than that in HSR. HSR is a complete data game, and the only way to be stronger is to invest more in pulling and relics, and relic hunting is just f-ing pure luck. However, in ZZZ there is always room in your game playing, proven by those Billy-only tower 100+ stage challenges.
Oh, Zhu Yuan will most definitely be power crept into oblivion, and I suspect this will happen quite soon. The thing is, this whole "stun and unload all your damage in that small window" thing doesn't really work well, no matter the stunners you use. Yes, including the Lighter. Especially when bosses have shortened stun window. When they have higher anomaly resistance, that's fine, you just deal damage slower. You are still dealing it, and it's still a lot of damage. When they get out of stun phase faster, you are not dealing any meaningful damage. In the best case, you'll drop an ult and a few normal hits. And even if you get back to it quick, your ult won't be ready. In my case, Zhu Yuan especially sucks since I have literally ONE stunner on my account, and you have one guess who. So, not only I get to the damage phase slower than absolutely necessary, I barely deal any damage in the process. In short: anomaly characters are self-sufficient and consistent, burst damage dealers are neither of those.
Oh, and BTW, there's a reason why HSR dropped the ball so hard. I felt something is really wrong with it right at launch and realized only much later when already dropped the game entirely. HSR is not a skill-based game. It works completely by the numbers. So, when the numbers scale up even a little, some characters simply fall below the "event horizon". In skill-based games, you can raise this bar in multiple different ways than just increasing health pool or raw damage numbers. That's why no-indicators mode exists in ZZZ, and that's why we got doppelgängers there. And even increasing raw damage on enemies doesn't make or break any existing characters (except pure shielders, I suppose).
not me pulling for ellen now while having M1W1 miyabi...
ive used ellen from the start and ive played pretty much every day, i was pulling wengines for soft pity and i pulled miyabis wengine, then i pulled her and im torn lmfao might try run her with burnice so ellen can keep her lycoan/soukaku squad coz shes been my best character since i pulled her
Ellen might not be the strongest but she has the best maneuverability out of all the characters making her the best at dodging attacks.
Billy says hi
i think 6 months to a year is a totally reasonable shelf life expectation personally, but i also tend to vertically invest a bit into characters i enjoy like miyabi i've gotten 1 copy of her engine and 2 copies of her so far and trying for a 3rd
good luck man! hope you get there :D
First time viewer here - good musings. I despise power creep to a much larger extent than you do and I'm therefore somewhat disappointed by Miyabi's strength relative to the entire rest of the cast. But what they came out with is definitely preferable to more traditional power creep. Imagine if Miyabi had only 10-15 % more damage than Ellen while simultaneously being so much easier to play. That would truly have been to take a dump on Ellen fans and only on Ellen fans.
Let's hope Miyabi remains the exception in accordance with her status in the lore. I hope characters have a much longer shelf life than 6 months, but we'll see if the devs (and the fans) allow for that slow of a pace.
What do you mean shelf life?
Their two ways of viewing it actual viability. Or dps.
If you view purely in dps Jane doe power creeped Ellen immediately as she was a better on field dps.
But actual viability billy is still useable.
So ellen is most definitely fine.
Day zero low spender building my 17th L60 unit meow. I only go L60 E9 W60 on all my units though and don't go hard with min maxing disks. I still play my Ellen, Von, Soukaku team for ICE missions and save my Miyabi, Yanagi, Soukaku team to keep things fresh. My strat is to build a mono team for each element and teams for each faction (with their Bangboo's), then just bounce between each depending on mood, which is quite fun and keeps older characters in the mix. Nekomata works fine with Anby and Nicole.
Ellen's only crime was being the same element as Miyabi :o
I wanna play DPS lighter too
I'm planning to use that same team you did but he's currently busy with miyabi cuz I don't have lyocan yet
At that time, those dps did their job. I think power creep is good. Something to look forward to
Sorry, but in the lore she’s a void hunter, one of the most powerful people in the lore, “one of the key players in the suppression of the catastrophe”. If she wasn’t the most power units so far, that would be dumb. Characters have to be powerful sometimes and some more than others. “Power creep” in games like ZZZ, or Honkai Impact, doesn’t matter when the game prioritizes skill and you can clear everything without the Meta or most powerful characters.
Plus, Miyabi is bae.
She does double the damage of most dps.💀 You cannot seriously think that is good for the game.
Did you not read the comment? She’s a void hunter. If she doesn’t do more damage then what’s the point in her being portrayed as powerful? There will be a character that’s more powerful than her in the future because they’re portrayed that way in the story.
@@tristhekid Thats not how gacha games work. In less than a year every single tom, dick and harry that releases will do more dmg than her. Her title is irrelevant.
@@JayTheBoss242 so you'd rsther have a Void Huntwr that's way weaker than what the game portrays? Then what's the point of making playable Void Hunters in the first place?
I'm quite new in ZZZ and gatcha games in general but all i know is that i'll never pull for characters i don't like. I wanted miyabi because she's cool and cute, good for me she's strong, but honestly i couldn't care less. I love anby so i didn't pull for qing yi. I want zhu yuan so i'll pull on her rerun even if she ends up getting powercrept by another character. In the end, gatcha games are pve solo games that have no real online competition, and i feel like playing them to have fun and enjoy your characters is all that matters. If you really want to flex your perfect micro just play an online game with real matchmaking and rating (ps: i'm not hating on those wanting to 100% perfect clear all the content and over-optimize, just saying it's probably not the POINT of such games)
I think we will be seeing this pattern again when it comes to future Void Hunters and equivalent. Given how receptive the devs are to feedback I don't think we have to worry for the future, especially when they removed the TV mode deadass because people (not all) didn't like it. Honkai Star Rail and Dragon Ball Legends are definitely up there for me when it comes to gacha games with insane powercreep.
Also in regards to Ellen I don't think she's that cooked if we get a shenhe type ice buffer in the future. She's still very useable.
Not really fussed about Miyabi. Is she better than Ellen? Definitely. So much better that I'd shelf another DPS unit I pulled on my limited mostly-F2P budget for her? Nah, not yet at least.
I'm gonna just focus on getting to my 300 standard pulls so the uncomfortably attractive bondage wolfman stops avoiding me and my mono-Ice team is complete. That should be done sometime before Evelyn releases, and she'll complete my Fire team. After that, I can either focus on upgrading my electric/ice/fire team members as needed, or also work on building physical and ether teams.
Power creep is scary but the devs have a safety net built in if everything goes to hell, if they decide to use it: raising the level cap. I will admit that it is already a pain to fully build a unit but if they decide to raise character and weapon level to 70 in 2.0. then my Ellen could clear even with stronger foes coming.
It is not a perfect solution and you can't use this trick every X.0 version because of diminishing returns but it is perfectly fine to use it when the game is new and the devs don't really know what a "fine tuned unit" looks like in general. Hopefully in the future they learn where the line is and they don't have to use that trick a bunch of times.
the annoying thing is the mobs in the new deadly assault and whatever is so catered towards having miyabi is ridiculous. i think it was the new shiyus 5-7 that are ridiculously tanky now that miyabi is out. if you said you did it with stunners then idk but i couldn't get S ranks on the new later shiyus.
Deadly only lets you use her once.
I did Shiyu with Ellen/Soukaku/Nicole still.
Nah. People have been clearing Shiyu using A-rank DPS, the most common being Piper and Billy. It's still manageable atm and I hope it stays this way moving forward.
Can you make a video on your dps lighter? I'd love to see it.
I'm gathering information to expireiment with.
Jane is pretty OP herself, mine is like 452AP, No crit rate/dmg, only 2200Atk and she hits over 500k easy.
Why use one over the other if you can use both? New 3-team mode allows it, considering 2 sides are ice weak.
Hell, you can use them in the same team even. It's a meme team, but it works perfectly
Compare Miyabi, the strongest character right now, to Ellen is quite unfair. Miyabi team can literally do everything now.
Enemy weak to physical? Miyabi
Enemy weak to ice? Miyabi
Enemy weak to fire? Miyabi
Like, she is a god-tier character, of course she "replaced" Ellen, but then in the same time, she replace everyone cause how broken she is
Jane doe was my breakthrough to finish shiyu. I’m just glad meta doesn’t really matter to most people cuz there’s no online competition to push people.
They are staying true to the lore, because Miyabi is just bonkers in the story.
As for the power creep, Miyabi is strong and really easy to use, but she is not HSR level broken, my Ellen is still extremely good and solid.
Hopefully this will not change, because the power creep in HSR was one of the two reasons I dropped the game in 2.3, and it is only getting worse with each patch (let's not even talk about the amount of new 5-star characters at this point, it's ridiculous). But even if it does get so bad, it will never be as bad as HSR because this is an action game, and you can always make a character work with some skill, which is not true for a turn-based game.
I don't know if Miyabi was intended to power creep Ellen Joe since they are two different specialties but she kinda does. Which is too bad, Ellen Joe was top meta on launch and I miss trouncing everything with her. I mean, I still can, but new hotness is right there. LOL! And I agree about factions adding depth and preventing direct power creep. Besides, they could add a killer support to Victoria Housekeeping and Ellen is back on top. But I like Miyabi a lot, so I don't mind her taking her place at the top of meta.
I'm super excited to see what's next for your ZZZ content!
you make a good point with new agents joining certain factions, i never actually considered that before
perhaps having 2 ice characters will be good for the 3-team mode? if they ever put in 2 ice-weak bosses at once; but to be fair, of course ellen was good before as she was the first limited, though i am surprised at how fast she became mid
thank you for watching man!!! :D i'm looking forward to making more too
Dang Nekomata out here catching random strays, but seriously though, if you can clear with dps Lighter, you can probably clear twice as fast with a properly invested Nekomata versus physical weak enemies.
You saying Neko that good? All my 50/50 loses went to her, had her af M3 lol. Maybe time to invest in her ; )
True. And people still clear endgame content using A-rank DPS (and mind you, we haven't had a new A-rank DPS since 1.0) so if someone complains saying "I can't S-rank this Shiyu using [insert DPS name/s here] wtf is this Hoyo???", it's just them admitting that they have skill issue.
i asked some others, they said nekomata could do like 2:30 clears on phys weak at best
back in 1.0, i was telling people in big discords like prydwen to not pull Ellen, if they just wanted a meta unit.
Cuz they will eventually release Miyabi. And she WILL be better.
There was no argument made about that.
Its the reason Miyabi never made it to the 2nd and 3rd beta test of the game.
She was just so much better design-wise, and power level-wise then any other character present in that beta test, that everybody just kept playing her, and shit was not being BETA TESTED.
But simps and people with bad decision making skills did not listen.
And they essentially wasted 70-320 pulls on ellen who ended up being shit on by Miyabi literally 3 patches after.
120 DAYS WAS ALL IT TOOK(if we dont count the time 1.0 lasted).
You guys shouldn’t justify powerceep with lore, because if you do, then it’s way too easy to sell you a brand new, stronger character
All they have to do is create a small story on how and why this character is better in lore than another, and you’re sold ?
We’ll see if miyabi gets powercrept in 4 patches as the top dps (not top ice dps) , if she does get powercrept this game will end up having the same level of power creep as hsr (in which case I shall quit this game as well )
For now powercreep seems ok - Evelyn should be around Zhu Yuan / Harumasa levels of power. Unless you have lighter which buffs her easily to Yanagi Levels of power, probably above. Evelyn/Lighter/Astra will probably be the best fire dps team while Miyabi/Yanagi/Astra will be the best ice/electricity team combined.
The anomaly meta currently is kinda aggravating only because like you said you can clear end game with pretty close to any unit even a stun dps build can do it. But with that I have almost as premium of a Zhu Yuan team as you can have minus sig weapons and cinema's and the clear times between this team and every anomaly dps is really big. To use Zhu Yuan you need a good stun so I got Qingy she needs a support obviously you use Nicole every chance I had I got weapon copies and cinema's for Nicole but that's not enough rotations and skill level comes into playing this group at it's best. The anomaly group don't need same factions stun units hell they don't even need shared element types they all actually play better in mixed elemental teams. I do hope these anomaly units are just hyper-bloom for this game and skill based dps units make a new rise or they don't make it to where my dps units fall off and cant compete anymore in end game. I should also note if I make a mistake with my Zhu Yuan team it hurts clear times massively if I make a mistake with Miyabi or any of the anomaly main dps units it literally doesn't matter they still wreck things with little to no issues
My honest opinion Qingy is in a better state then Lighter not to say he's bad cause he is not but she's far more universal then he is literally only needing to be in a team with a dps and that's her passive. Then you need to just get good at dodge countering and applying her attack buff
Got her m1 and weapon also
If anything, I'm surprised that Yanagi or Harumasa aren't much stronger vs Zhu Yuan and Jane.
Cause power creep isn't that drastic. It's usually bit by bit some most power creep.
Not every dps should be automatically better a dps from a patch ago.
Also that bad game design and hoyo knows it power creep has to not happen every patch
@thefearturkey6944 It's more like I thought it would be the entire Section 6 that would be top meta, not just their Void Hunter.
1:25 the pure fiction mode? Pure fiction is mobbing, the new mode is mostly weekly bosses so way more like apocalyptic shadow.
But really its a copy paste of the memorial arena mode from HI3
I am that pretty stubborn Ellen fan 💜👍🔥
You see, i dont like Powercreep. But here it kinda just feels right.
Miyabi is by lore one of the strongest Characters in the Verse and her standing out just makes sense.
Unlike Genshin, were some characters who make hairstyles or just ride a Shark can keep up with GODS: I prefer characters like "Casual People" or "Mediocre Fighter" being below characters who are godlike. Imagine we get that one Girl that makes Milkshakes and she has suddenly attacks were she does Nukes
Nah my Ellen Lighter Lycaon team is REALLY STRONG. Enemies being stunned so fast and Ellen has ample of time to dish out damage.
And Imo Ellen and Miyabi covers different shoes. Ellen is more to traditional crit stun dps whereas Miyabi uses an anomaly playstyle. Miyabi can't use a stunner but Ellen can. In Deadly assault I use Miyabi team to clear boss 1 and Ellen for boss 3.
Yes Miyabi is undeniably stronger than Ellen (and pretty much all dps actually), but their supports are different.
Ellen and Miyabi doesnt cover different shoes. In everything Ellen does, Miyabi does it better. She completely replaces Ellen in her crit stun teams while also dishing out insanely huge AOE and anomaly attribute damage effortlessly. She also excels at disorder teams and can easily dominate the shiyu defense solo. At this point, there’s actually no point for getting Ellen anymore unless you’re a diehard fan or something.
The only hope for Ellen to comeback is when Hoyo releases an Ice Support that doesnt work for Miyabi. An ice support that only activates its core passive when paired with attackers or victoria housekeeping faction members.
@lexxxie_52004 Yeah I agree with all you said. Imo Miyabi is overtuned especially her AoE.
I'm just speaking for myself. The way I want to build my account is each element has 2 dps, one is crit and one is Anomaly and Ellen and Miyabi have covered that respectively. But yeah Miyabi outperforms her by a lot.
I think ellen is getting some characters that will buff her but yea....shes cleared by miyyabi
cursor @8:16
Since jane doe zenless start 2.0 standard character that very powercreep compare to the character before.
Um, first real powercreep? Seems like every new unit so far has outdone the one just before it with a comfortable margin. Granted it has been A-ranks and standard banner mostly that were affected whereas Ellen our first limited just got sent to the shadow realm. Sure she wasn’t in the best place even before Miyabi, I’ll agree. But putting this in HSR terms this is the equivalent to if Fu Xuan was actually quantum Acheron and immediately powercrept every DPS in the game and made Seele completely pointless. Now sure MoC is far more taxing on your units than Shiyu defense is, we’ll see if that trend continues and if it does and Miyabi’s is an outlier then we were worried for nothing.
BTW crit Lighter is based, I don’t use him as main DPS but I did build a lot of crit on him 😎
I disagree ellen being useless, i have miyabi and ellen both with their signatures and i swap them from time to time cause both are viable and fun to play, ellen has a lot of technical play and miyabi has a lot of i frames on ber animations ellen just needs work and care to work properly
I REALLY want Miyabi but I need to save for a physical support. I really need Nekomata to have a partner so she can deal even more damage
nekomata could seriously use some help, i'd like a buff for her too since i have nekomata
@ I love nekomata so much, shes just a kitty that meeps and eeps and eebs she needs a buff 💔
m0 miyabi has double the dmg as m6 ellen noone will ever play ellen again
Miyabi being powerfully until 3.0 ? Yeah of course, that’s what we said with Dan heng il in star rail back in 1.3, that absolutely powercrept the whole roaster of characters we had at that point
And please for the love of god stop with all that "it’s lore accurate" nonsense, Acheron was power creeping everyone too in 2.0, and she fell off in less than 6months, firefly straight up destroyed her in terms of both dps and usability, and right after we got Feixiao, I’ve not used my "lore accurate power creeping Acheron" since 2.4
You're not wrong about what is happening in star rail but i also don't really think its a great one to one comparison either. I think there is a lot more the devs can do with an action game to differentiate characters or add difficulty without directly powercreeping or just adding more hp to mobs. Will we see powercreep and hp inflation? almost certainly but i would be genuinely surprised if it happens as quickly as it is happening in star rail.
Lighter simp? guess I’ll subscribe, I’ll also say after much testing with lighter, inferno metal is trash just use 4pc woodpecker and 2pc branch and blade, it’s significantly better and way more consistent. Your out of stun damage is way higher and your in stun damage is only slightly lower. If up you use burnice with your DPS lighter then inferno is best in slot, but…. If you use burnice with lighter then your pretending lighter is the DPS while the true DPS is burnice so yea… lol
Edit: hope u can m6 lighter next time it’s worth it lol
i can't wait to M6 him he's so hot i need to, hello fellow lighter enjoyer!!!
alright tysm for this, i had no idea, after i max crown him & get all his cores i'll farm him a new set :D at least he's still clearing endgame as-is, but i can't wait to see what his DMG will be like on woodpecker
+ i don't have burnice, i'm a full-on LIGHTER MAIN! HECK YEAH
@juiceisontheloosewait juice is this your from your genshin channel? We know each other then if that’s the case lol
While me doing ellen, miyabi & sukaku team
i feel like Genshin's meta got super boring since neuvillette released. its actually so dull now
i use ellen
:D based!
I can easily get her but I'm skipping for evelyn hopefully she's similar to her power
Evelyn is ZZZs first try on making competitive units (to voidhunters) without inflating numbers. Voidhunters are meant to be OP. Evelyn doesn't have those numbers that make voidhunters OP. In fact in beta she is just around Zhu Yuan levels of stats. However she has her own gimmick that might make her competitive with void hunters
hopefully she is a bit worse because that'd be a bit worrying (a character being archon-tier right after the 'archon' release)
Powercreep is good if the one who is doing it is my favorite character
hello fellow lighter fan
Miyabi is infinite top tier
I see what you did there. Wwwwww 8:15
dps Lighter 🤝dps Qingyi
She’s strong, but I have a M6 Yanagi. With her I can pull on the characters I really like because she’s incredibly busted and practically Unkillable.
Zzz has the best balance out of all of Hoyoverses games. Tge only characters that will get power creeped will be the standard banner ones. If you have Lighter you won’t be using Koleda. If you pull for Evilen you won’t be using solder 11 so on and so on. Ellen still has a place. Sometimes you need 2 ice DPS. If your teams can put out 20.000 damage you’ll be fine.
No it aint...
First it was Jane, then it was Yanagi, then its Miyabi...
nah those perform just about the same the big problem is Ellen relying on that dash charge attack even Caesar can't save Ellen in the end game since it take 1 hit and the shield is gone
i've only been playing for about a month so still learning the meta, that's fair
i see miyabi as direct powercreep because of the weakness system though
even if you have both jane & yanagi, you'll use them on phys weak & electric weak respectively, right? whereas with miyabi, she removed ellen from the meta completely
Power creep in ZZZ is as bad as hsr but Miyabi isn't a power creep, she's a killing blow for all attacker agents in the game. Zhu Yuan, Ellen and Harumasa all of them are trash limited units, at this point they need a complete rework or they should get added in to the standard banner pull. Anomaly right now is a different monster specially with new ultimate system.
i'm so worried about how bad powercreep is gonna become in the future man... we're all cooked
A : Oh s**t Miyabi powercreep my other dps that I build with all my heart, this is BS !!!
B : I can still get all the reward from all the content using Nekomata you know.
A : Shut Up !!! Miyabi can clear the content in 2 seconds, no other character can.
B : But it still give the same reward.
A : True, but miyabi can 2 seconds a content you know.
B : Dude, no one care.
A normal conversation in every gacha game when a new character release.