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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 เม.ย. 2024
- Playing as the Hard Carry, Position 1, or ADC can be a vastly different experience depending on whether you're playing Dota or League. This video explains the major differences between the two games in terms of carrying, while also illustrating what you need to be successful in either.
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The main difference I've often felt is that lategame lol carries always become glass cannons, while lategame dota carries always become raidbosses
LoL carries late game: RPG damage dealers, who need tanks and healers combo backing them up.
Dota carries late game: actually quite diverse: some can tank the whole enemy team while dishing out remarkable damage (like Spectre and Medusa), some are slippery hit-and-run powerhouses (like Slark and Anti-mage) but some are also RPG damage dealers, who need tanks and healers combo backing them up (like Drow Ranger and Sniper).
EDIT: I actually had written this comment before I watched the clip. The video covers it incredibly well. I shouldn't have posted such a mood comment.
In Dota, the carries are the ones one-shotting people whereas in LoL, they're the ones getting one-shot
@@Acex2ron I feel like one of those Dota was supposed to be a League.
@@Acex2ronso, which one is dota and which one is dota?
@@Zancibar nope lol
As someone who has played both games for a long time, I find the differences between the two games really fascinating. They sometimes look similar if you haven't played both, but it's almost like they're made for completely opposite types of people. Not just in their gameplay, but in their fundamental design philosophy. It's no wonder most Dota players can't stand League, and most League players never get interested in Dota.
Couldn't have put it better myself! League isn't Dota, and Dota isn't League, so they'll never be each other and arguing over which is better is pointless. But it's still fun to discuss the differences between the two biggest names in the genre.
Yes exactly
Remember when early 2010s everyone compared one to each other but after years they are fundamentally different
dota is more of an old man's game where as LoL is more of the arcade-y type
@@Cricket0021 no one could think of a worse analogy than what you just typed.
@@basti_lol well there arcade skin on league and mythical skin on dota
The main difference is that in the lategame a carry in dota is a strong and, sometimes, tanky, right-clicker, which shows the product of all the farming needed to achieve that point.
In league of legends, you are a bag of gold that gets oneshot without any kind of counterplay if there is a character called "Rengar" in the game
That's why League has GA--you can get one-shot twice in the same fight!
the best counter to this is proper team play, which we all know can be an absolute joke without any voice comms lol
League also has raid boss hard carry as well. Lilia, Shyvana, Evelyn, Master Yi, etc. are your DOTA hardcarries.
Riot just nerfed them out of existence.
And the Windshitter, don't forget them
@@Acex2ron
They need to nerf assasin reduce tank scaling and remove the bounty system.
League is getting more and more boring with how regid the meta is.
I feel like only top and jungle mattered in league unless riot decide to say no and balance them to oblivion. But refuse to nerf op champs.
@@bardfall9555 i had a game where my kai'sa was 0-5 AND she still had a bounty.
I love how in Dota the definition of a carry is p much just "given enough gold you become unstoppable" and that can mean anything from a sniper shooting up highground to an insta killing es with daedalus
What's also really fun is that dota has moved more and more towards a design that lets heroes play multiple types of roles.
Yes there are some heroes that are meant for specific things but the role flexibility is mcuh greater than it first seems.
Take terrorblade for example. He's long been seen as a definitive hard carry, and for good reason.
However I've seen people take a look at him and go "hmm, I can use my illusions to scout, I got a strong attack buff so I can deal damage even without items, I can make illusions of enemies which turns their power against them and this spell is completely item independant, and I can save my carry with my ult. Yes I'll play hard support terrorblade that sounds good".
Ogre magi is another one. He might not be able to play as pos 1 but he can absolutely build himself into a brawler that bashes people's faces in, or a support mage that focuses on spellcasting, or some sort of hybrid.
Omniknight can either be a support who saves his carry, or a fighter who protects his friends in the process.
Dark Willow can either be a highly disruptive support or a straight up ranged assassin.
Hell even heroes like crystal maiden and dazzle, the quintessential definition of a support hero, can play as a mid laner and become a monstrously strong right clicker with the right build.
There's so much flexibility in what you can do in dota.
EE risky farm joke goes hard lmfao
Fifty-FiftEE NEVER DIES
@@Acex2ron PLEASE TP TOP
@@sbastianbrilyanto4722 DROP YOUR STICK, DROP YOUR STICK
I am so good and bad at this game at the same time !
A support main here. I haven't really played dota 2 in quite a while, but I feel like it's a lot more necessary to support for your hard carry whereas in LoL, I think very little of abandoning an underperforming ADC in favor of helping a higher performing player. I think it's because of the abundance of hyper carry champs who can 1v9 with cataclysmic late game damage in other positions like Gwen, Bel'Veth, and Master Yi. A snowballing Yone is worth far more of my attention as a win condition than a 0/3 Jinx. Hell, there are even support champs like Senna and Pyke who can hard carry if I REALLY don't trust my team.
This is a very good point that I'm bookmarking for the Support video! Because of the nature of League, it's a lot better for the team if the support abandons the underfarmed (or just plain bad) ADC and goes to gank mid or top, or joins the Jungler in applying roam pressure.
But it's also the case for Dota, where if your lane is lost beyond salvaging, it's better to sack it and the carry goes to farm the jungle whereas their 5 support goes to support other lanes. This usually means that the enemy has to do the same, sending the 3 and 4 in response, thus opening up the lane for your carry to farm!
@@Acex2ron lemme enter another comment XD
Recently(since they added Void grubs) roaming supports had more success over non roaming ones, cuz of the map pressure and a fact that any role in League can be a “carry” role. And I mean any, cuz even on something like bard or soraka or Nami one good combo or rightfully placed ward can turn a fight around, cuz how different dote and league is
@@psychokuca302 nah man, dota is literally the same, perhaps you haven't played a lot of dota sups
@@Acex2ron but carry in dota still can scale hard because jungle camp in dota in safelane is same size as whole camp in league. there also portal to top now. make carry/support to gank offlane or otherwise. while league biggest thing you can farm is siege minion cause jungle camp worth little for adc making it harder to scale like other winning role
@@psychokuca302 in dota when you play turbo 3 minute is minimum time you gonna get gank while minimum 5-10 minute you go out of lane. in all pick is 5 minute for early gank and 15-20 minute to leaving lane. as post 5 you shouldn't leave your carry alone if you carry jungle you protect the lane and warding jungle. but as post 4 you the one who most likely to roam to give either post 3 get more xp or helping other lane.
In League you get to scale all your abilities through your items, where as in dota, your skills will scale far more with just raw experience. For carries, their late game potential usually comes down to how these abilities synergize with key items, where as supports and mid-game based mages scale mostly with getting levels to scale up their damage, and use items for utility. There aren't a lot of crit items in dota, but assassins attain it mostly through skills that give critical strike. Phantom lancer is hard to kill because his ultimate makes illusions, and illusions get to benefit from health scaling of strength, and the damage from agility.
Well said, it's spot on
5:25 100% slow in dota doesn't actually make a hero completely unable to move, but instead sets their ms to 100, which the minimum ms for heroes and is one third of the average base ms.
100 ms is almost as slow as not moving though. You move like a geriatric snail crawling on glue.
@ChadKakashi could still blink compared to root where you can't. I always found it weird that at 100% slow, you can still walk.
>"there are no magic damage carries in Dota"
>Pos 1 Pudge slowly creeps in, starts to rot and heal back and chew your ass off with his ulti Dismember"
he forgot about muerta
@@johnlloydvillanosa3582 Muerta is magic damage, yes, but she is closer to Drow or Medusa or Sniper in her type of gameplay when Pudge is something completely different (I personally play Pudge as Pos 3 and into damage build, it's so fun to see people MELT)
Ah shit, not again. Someone build Mage Slayer + Shiva's pls
@@Acex2ron Fortunately, mage slayer isn’t that popular right now although Sviva both hurts and helps Pudge (Aghs+Bloodstone is a dopamine factory)
@@Chasodey Necrophos used to be like that too
One of the things that feels the most different being the carry in League is that in the early game it feels like there's less to do; in DOTA it's pretty common to farm up to a farming item and rotate in and out of jungle to more efficiently get gold. In League I was surprised that the jungle is off limits (because of junglers) and that 'picking up' lanes for exp/last hits when that lane's core is backing/dead is not common place (usually supports).
at least earlygame, you just dont have the damage to kill jungle camps. camps are super tanky early on and if you arent the jungler you take way too much damage and time to really make it worthwhile to kill camps.
as for why you dont see people oicking up waves, i think its mostly just that it takes a lot of time. it takes like 20 seconds to walk to a lane and the summoner spell teleport has a 6 to 4 minute cool down thats better used to try and turn a fight
It's ALOT of things to do. You will be overwhelmed. Assume that you win lane and force the lanner to hug the tower, now you can deepward their jungle. Go with your own jungler to compete for crab/worm/herald/dragon. Or just make their jungler life miserable. Or even tower dive other lane. I literally don't have time to do them all as a jungler even if I don't intend to invade.
You may think the pos 1 carries in dota, wait till you see the late game pos 5 snap who left to jungle at min 40 and reenters the game with Daedalus+25 talent and 1 shots your 3 cores
I love this video it hits the nail on the head of what i feel is different and helped me identify what I was feeling
Love your content my guy. I can tell you're actually knowledgeable in both games and their nuances
Great video I personally have hopped between playing league and DOTA casually for many years, and I definitely agree with a lot of what you said! Thanks for the great video and keep up the good work
Very lovely video. Great comparisons and as a Dota player, I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe except that Dota has been trying to make the intelligence carry role more of a thing in the recent years by introducing many magic and intelligence-based items. However, they also naturally introduced the counters. I think the intention of releasing Muerta was a breaking point since they introduced Revenant's Brooch (what Meurta carries on her back) before she was released, transforming physical damage into magical. I think it still needs some tweaks, but the very fact that Bristleback is often picked as a carry is indicative that you can sometimes pick a spell-caster carry.
Thanks for this comment! And I agree on the Revenant's Brooch. I think it's a good item in theory as a counter to armor-stackers like Axe and Timber, but still needs some tweaking. The removal of Khanda Rapier meta was a step in the right direction!
@@Acex2ron I'd say actual armor-stackers in dota are agility carries, as they get a lot of base armor, which also helps them to feel less squishy despite having less raw HP. And in general magic resist is usually lower than physical resist unless you specifically build an item to change that. Brooch has lost a lot of popularity after it stopped working with crits though.
Another great vid~!
May we please have one on the differences between Supports in Dota and LoL as well?
Gimme a few days :)
I think that the hardest role, at least in dota 2 is the support, but good video man...
Also, HSR OST, nice
Depends on the point of view. Support needs a lot of good mental and decision making, but its honestly the easiest role to climb
Penacony battle music slaps bro
In pubs, not really, but in pro games, the supports are the blood of the team, that's why team captains are often pos 5.
Pos4 is the hardest, than pos2. Depending on the meta. Rn these 2 are the most important roles. Yes, you heard that right. lol playeres: carrys aren't always the most important role.
About 10 years ago, I would have agreed. But ever since they added free wards, free courier and flying upgrade, glimmer cape, stacking gold, tormentor, and twin gates, Wisdom Runes, and all that other jazz? I've never had so much gold playing as Lion!
From my personal experience (as a newbie in league and old-time player in dota) it's much more fun to play carry in dota than to play adc in league. I like dota's macro and item build choises much more. Items in dota can offer you cc, movement, survivability in form of extra health, armor, lifesteal, dispels. And in league it's just damage, attack speed, crits. While some items have additional passive components, they don't feel that interesting.
What makes playing adc a literal torture for me is the fact that all adcs are just glass cannons which get one shot by everyone else. You need to have incredibly good positioning and your team has to protect you from enemy assasins/bruisers diving and deleting you in a fraction of second. But there is no reason for them to protect you because in league everyone can carry and your damage dealing capabilities don't matter that much, since anyone else can dish out pretty good damage while also having better mobility / survivability / cc. As an adc you build only damage to keep up with everyone else, while some tank builds nothing but hp and armor but has abilities that scale with his health, allowing him to deal good damage while also being harder to kill. Playing assassin is a high-risk/high-reward playstyle. While playing adc is basically very high-risk/low-reward.
I can deal much more damage when playing lux support, hitting enemies from an actually safe distance, which is harder to cover with a built-in dash that every new champ has. Or I can go toplane with some easy to grasp frontlane champ, just turn off my brain and run into enemies. Or i can play assassin and just insta-gib most characters without breaking a sweat. I'm not really good on akali but damn sometimes I roll my face on keyboard and miss half of my abilities and still manage to easily kill some poor squishy without almost any counterplay availible to them. And I can kinda do all this stuff while playing carry in dota, since there are so many different carries with different playstyles. But even when I play drow, who is similar to adc's in league (long-range glass cannon), it's still much more fun. I actually have items which help me survive like pike, bkb or manta. And my team actually plays around me because I'm their main source of damage, so I can usually expect that my support will help me if I get jumped and my frontlaner will lock down enemy team so I can shoot them.
It also doesn't help that carries are supposed to scale well into late game, but due to snowballing, players being easily tilted and surrender option available at 15min mark, most games just end before adc can even hit a major powerspike and become an actual character that can do stuff.
Haha, the FF15 mentality is one of my most hated attitudes in League. Like, I feel like half my games in League don't even make it past 3 completed items because one of the teams will quit. Why even plan a build order at that point when you only need 2-3 core items per game.
@@SadFace201 The saddest thing is that mentality isn't necessary completely wrong. As far as I know, people on higher ranks FF15 much more often because players are better at using their leads. So when one team snowballs, they won't give their enemies a chance to comeback. People know that and just end the game at 15 min mark because sometimes there is literally no reason to continue playing because of how snowbally the game is. Also playing when behind in league is extremely frustrating as there isn't much you can do, especially when playing with random people. It's much harder to comeback in league than in dota imo. The game is just designed this way, since rito want short mathes that end in less than 30 minutes, and too many possibilities for comeback might prolong the game too much. And because of that I think a lot of people don't put much effort in playing. The commitment is low, so to speak. Why try hard when others in your team might lose their lanes so hard you'll have to FF15? And if you fail because you haven't tried hard enough, it's not a big deal, since you can just FF15 and try again! Absolutely ridiculous game design.
That said, on lower elo it's still very much possible to win even when you're behind, because people there aren't that good at the game and prone to making stupid mistakes which can cost them the entire game.
@@savekla Oh yes, I'm aware that League is far more snowbally than dota. The lack of mechanics that can be leveraged in League means that there's very little you can do to comeback barring the enemy team from royally fucking up, which happens rarely in higher ELOs. That's why they used to have that statistic many many years ago that in pro-play the team ahead at 10 min has a 90% chance to win the game. I'd assume that still holds true today since Riot hasn't really added anything that would significantly encourage comebacks.
Much more fun for you, less fun for the 9 other player playing with you when you get fed.
Adc in Lol still need team to help him function even if they are fed. Support player will still feel like they make a difference late game.
But top lane in lol have the same problem as carry in Dota. When they are fed, they are both tanky and deal high damage, making the match much more oneside and turn to a boring stat check.
@@cynt4416 I'd rather have someone named "Carry" be stronger than average and able to actually carry the game, instead of dying to a sneeze in their general direction. I mean, if you are weak early on and spend at least 20 minutes farming for items to play the game, than it better be worth it in the end. Carries in dota start off weak and through levels and items become late game menace. Carries in league feel like they need levels and items to just be on the same level as others, if not worse, since they don't have built-in survivability, mobility or utility that other roles have, while everyone else has those thing and still can deal damage pretty good damage.
Still, carries in dota rarely get hyperfed so much they can really 1v9 without any help from their team, especially at higher skill levels. Even if they do get a good start, carry without team will have hard time dealing any damage if they are playing against at least somewhat competent players, as they'll just get kited/cc'd, all while there is no one to hold enemies in place with cc, or save them with utility spells/items. No matter if you have ton of damage and bkb, enemy team can still cc you with abilities that go through bkb and focus you with all they have, which is almost always a guranteed death.
I honestly rarely feel like I'm having less fun because my carry is popping of. If I stop doing my thing, they will usually get overwhelmed, since I'm not helping them either directly or by applying pressure somewhere on the map. And if the enemy carry is fed, than of course I'm going to have less fun, since I'm currently losing, duh. And there is plenty counterplay and ways to comeback when you're behind. Unless the score is like 0-20.
In late game, supports, just like any other role, still can have huge impact on the game. At the very least, they can provide their team with vision and useful utility items for save/buffs. Most support characters have incredibly powerful spells, which can be gamechanging. Dazzle's W is Tryndamere's ult for a teammate. Vengeful Spirit's ult allows her to swap positions with a champion, which can be used to save teammates or ruin enemy's positioning. Crystal Maiden's ult can deal tons of magic damage in a team fight. Ogre's buffs can greatly improve his team's survivability and dps. Good supports are often the ones focused first in teamfights if possible, because they can easily turn your good engage into a lost teamfight by saving their cores or cc'ing your team. Not to mention that early game falls almost enterily on support's shoulders.
And again regarding whole thing about fed players being unstoppable. In league toplaners and junglers become 1v9 deathmachines. But champs that usually play those roles are pretty strong even in early game. So they get to play from the start and get to play even more if things go their way. While carries in dota are weak at the start, but become stronger than anyone else late in the game. Makes more sense to me that someone who's weakest early becomes strongest in the end, Instead of someone who is already pretty strong early becoming even stronger as time goes by.
I would say that even in dota there are countless times when even a pos5 (support) can feel like he's carrying the game, highest damage dealt etc because of the match up or skill level
Some points i'd like to add about magic/spell based carry in dota
-divine rapier in dota gives 25% spell amp as of patch 7.35 and as of 7.35d it can be toggled between 25% spell amp or 250 attack damage.
-revenant's brooch is an item that turns all your right clicks into magic damage but has a big mana cost per hit.
-bristleback and pudge carry exist (existed? not in meta right now). some carries also has good magic damage (gyro, luna, arc warden, slark) but since the scaling is worse, they still build for right clicks.
but yeah i do agree that in terms of pure power, magic damage scaling is higher in league than dota.
Pudge carry still exists
Bristle carry has high pickrate on dota2protracker
You'll be surprised to know that bristle back does only physical damage hahahahha
@@alexudumitreu1583 it is still "spell" based and even if the argument is "he still right clicks", he still wants to spam the spell to gain damage stacks from his ult. also, his quill stack damage is still boosted by kaya and its variants, rapier spell amp, and neutral items that boost spell damage.
One scaling mage from dota that bears mentioning is Leshrac. Lesh has even seen brief periods of meta relevancy as a pos 1 on multi-core lineups, but he's been meta in every position at least once so perhaps that's not so surprising. There was also the period where all the carries went midlane and the safelane would often be casters/playmakers, but that was just the pos 1 being mid, rather than a caster being pos 1.
I agree with the point about everyone in league being a carry while dota has the pos 1 win condition you funnel into, but I think it's worth mentioning, just as a point of interest/discussion, that power creep has been taking dota more down the league route. There is enough farm on the map to have 2-3 highly farmed cores now, and supports have seen a lot of love to the point where even your pos 5 can sometimes get a few big items and the pos 4 often turns into a 4th core. Plus with talents, aghs shards, and what not, adding extra power to casters, a pos 1 with bkb on cd could potentially just die 1v1 to even something like a lich or crystal maiden. That being said, I definitely prefer it this way to how dota used to be. I'm do not like league's extreme damage creep, and idk if I'd say dota has it right either, but at the very least I'll take CM solo killing the 4 items PA over the days when she'd be lvl 8 with brown boots and wand at the 30 minute mark.
I also think there is a lot more that could be talked about with item differences. Dota doesn't actually have that many generic dps items like league. Most damage items come with some kind of survivability stat while league has a ton of items that are just damage. And maybe it's just me, but I feel like, as an adc, building tank just doesn't really do anything. I know tank kog'maw has seen some success, but there is so much damage that building just a bit of tank doesn't seem to make a difference, and if you go too far into tank you don't do enough damage. Then of course there is Blink Dagger, which makes marksman type heroes so much more vulnerable. I've always been curious about what effect blink dagger would have if you added it into league.
Oh and thanks for making me feel old with that mordekaiser bit, but it doesn't make me feel as old as realizing how few people even remember the old runes and mastery system. I mean how many people would even know what you are talking about if you brought up "Thunderlord's" now?
I read "Leshrac" in your comment and I started building Mage Slayer out of habit lmao
But in all seriousness, Leshrac does deserve a mention in hindsight, even though I think he's better as a Pos 2. I'm not sure if it was TI5 or TI6 where Leshrac was in pretty much every match, and Sumail was absolutely rolling with him.
Very good point though on how the abundance of resources have changed the game over the years. Right now, I actually believe that Pos 1 is in the weakest it's ever been (and that says a lot, the role is still quite strong) with the nerfs to BKB and the abundance of supports with survivability items. Thanks to the gold changes, and Ammar, we're starting to see a lot of carry offlaners as well.
The TTK is actually what allows item actives to be so much more useful in Dota. I've been stunned for over 6 seconds as Sven, but still lived long enough to pop BKB and Satanic just because the TTK is so low, whereas even a 1 second stun is enough to end my life, even as a Xin Zhao, in League.
And my Hextech Gunblade Mordekaiser lives on in memory (and TFT)
@@Acex2ron Pretty sure it was TI5. Baumi has a neat channel, StoriesofDota, that covers the history of certain heroes by looking at them through the lens of their TI performances, and my recollection from the Lesh video was that his super OP patch, 6.84, was during TI5. I started dota the winter between TI2 and TI3 when he was played support, though, so I still have strong memories of him as that, and he's been an offlaner plenty of times as well. In fairness, Pos 1 is probably the role least often meta for him, I feel like there's only a few patches when it was anything but a rare, very niche, pick.
@@Acex2ron Indeed, pos 1 is really vulnerable these days and as a support main i am almost always certain that we can jump even a strong farmed pos 1 alone like its JJK and end him. I've been playing dota since 2012/2013 and i still remember the days when 30 minutes in the enemy carry that has been in the jungle all game would reveal himself like an anime villain and solo the entire team with no help or any difficulties. Sure, it was the early days when on a fundamental level players were a lot less knowledgeable and skilled, and what is now considered herald level game would have been a mid to high skill game.
Blink dagger kind of does exist on league. It's called flash and every champ has it on a 5 minute cooldown.
@@otsokarhu9695 5 min CD? Wtf seriously?
nice quality video man, hope it pops off
Thank you! Hope you do as well in your next game
great video! as someone who plays both games on and off, i find that being a pos 1 is so much more enjoyable than ADC, mostly because i love the melee carry archetype (my mains are Jugg, Sven, and CK), but also for basically every reason that the roles differ lol
You'd be better off in Toplane if that were the case!
@@Acex2ron funny that: i am actually a top lane main in LoL! primarily Urgot, Gwen, Tryndamere and Jax
its also because position 1 carries don't get blown up in one second during mid game/late game
@@Cricket0021so, in LoL is it common thing to die in 1 frame after 20 minutes on ADC? I'm just new to the game and I was playing with my buddies when that happened to me several times, thought my build is bad or I don't have some crucial items to survive
@@IonPerseus yeah. there's a champion in league named "rengar" that deletes adc's and squishies in one jump. literally 100 to zero in one jump. its not that your build is bad, there are just characters in LoL that are made to delete squishies in one or two button presses
Very nice video, a lot of interesting insight!
Excellent music too.
What if for the next video you're talk about comeback mechanics in Dota and League or how is it to close the game between two games? Or is it already included in your gold mechanic? Thank you.. :3
1 thing you forget is how sustain work in both lanes, in dota 2 with courier you can kinda make any lane work as long as don't get countered in the draft so you spam regen and just exist and its almost impossible to snowball dota 2 game and finish in 20-25 min when average game time is 40+, league is other way around, you not only limited on sustain but because game balanced around dodging spells not tank them if you start taking dmg in the face you lose laning phase in few min and after that you probably don't have time to farm/comback since enemy can from snowball finish at min 20-25
Spell based carrys do exist in dota2( pudge, Lesh). However unlike league, dota isnt about skillshots and bursts, not always. So when it comes to spell based carrys, they are tanky mfs who you wont be able to deal with. Pudge as a pos1 doesnt out damages you, he out healths you.
Pudge is a relatively new addition to the carry role, but that is true! They're DPSes for sure, but they just ramp up damage over the fight. Guess that's another archetype to add to Dota's carry roster
@@Acex2ron relatively new is.. well I guess relative. Pudge carry has been a thing since they reworked agh and if I'm not mistaken, it was Matu who made it popular in ti11. But again, about spell based carries, they have existed for a long time but most of them are very risky picks. You have heroes like pudge and lesh who wanna out-live you and you have heroes like OD, Silencer, Winter Wyvern who wanna right click you down asap.
@@Acex2ron Not really relatively new. It was very meta 2 years ago after a series of buffs, got reworked into his current Aghanim's and his 3rd skill becoming an active and we got to see it in action when TI11 rolled around and boy was he contested a lot before playoffs. He didn't do so hot later coz Leshrac was a better alternative and both didn't do well either when wraith pact and damage reduction strats crushed them.
@@imfinishedgrinding638 Im 99% sure he meant relatively new in the lifespan of the game. If you picked carry pudge 5 years ago you were going to low prio, no questions asked.
@@priqe Yeah, as an old school player, anything past Pango and Willow registers as “new” to me. Gimme a pension already lmao
Hey, I remember the time when Lord Miracle was at his peak. When he played Invoker (the spellcaster), he was legit pos1 while his carry (Matum or Notail I'm not sure) was kind of pos2 for the team.
If you ignore Revenant's Broach, I think the only real magic damage pos 1 left in Dota is Arc Warden. Most other pos 1 heroes that deal magic damage are better described as mixed damage heroes (Lina, Faceless Void, Juggernaut, Meepo and so on).
That said, Revenant's Broach now means that a lot of physical damage carries can shift entirely to magic damage. Means that PA can five shot your 9k HP Centaur, and kill your 2 supports from off screen with the triple dagger.
Also, the reason Muerta is played as a supprt is not because she is not good as a core. In Dota, a hero becomes a support if they can do well without items. They become a pos 4 support if they are also good with items. This means that gold is being used more effectively - it goes to the heroes that _really_ need it. It's also why Marci and Dawn are played at pos 4 - they don't need gold to be effective, but they are really good at using gold to get even more effective at using their kit.
And then there's Morhpling a whatever carry that thing is
He's a marksman, but also a statstick, but also a tank, but also a caster, but also....your Earthshaker?
@@Acex2ron he's you, he's me, he's everyone
in dota, you can either be a right click carry/pure damage or a magic type carry and there's hero's who can do both like Lina, Zeus, Ember and Void Spirit
I'm not super experienced with LoL, but one difference I felt when it comes to laning as a carry is that the absence of denies makes last hitting a trivial thing in league, wave management becomes much more about dodging skillshots and shoving wave, which reduces some of the load from your mind. In a high level dota game, every single last hit in lane is a hard fought battle.
with how cheap each minion are in League, missing up to 3 per wave doesn't make a dent to team's financial performance in a short run and one can makeup the difference by forcing the opposing laner to retreat. In my experience with DotA, though, my fellow laner often scold me whenever I failed at last hitting because my laning style has always been closer to LoL's, even before I become acquainted with the game.
in league, a really mechanically skilled player with counter pick harass you so hard you can't even CS at all, that's what the Lux/Caitlyn reference in the video is, you're so perma pushed even at the tower, so in a sense that's how you deny, the last hit mechanic is more in line with dota's gold mechanic that allows for more comeback options (and helps due to the gold reduction when you die)
I've experienced that many times where i was just really skilled gapped and counterpicked that i couldn't play anymore, wave management on the other hand is a bit different, there's a few videos on it mainly freezing lane (by only last hitting in the simplest sense) forcing the enemy hero to overextend, if that guy doesn't have a flash on CD, he's basically a sitting target for a gank for overextending
I think the part when "Mage in dota doesn't scales with items" is a bit misleading.
Sure, the damage is fixed to certain amount for most heroes, but items scaling the mages by giving them 'options' other than damages. For examples, silencer's 3rd skill started by being single target, but with item Aghanim Scepters, it makes the skill into aoe+ground target. Another "Mage core" items like bloodstone, octarine core, or RO also scale the mages pretty well (spell lifesteal, cd reduction, and spell amp), but not in 'raw damage' departement.
Also also in dota, other pos other than carry can snowball and manfight the other team alone too, y'know? Its just that recovering in dota is quite easy since the map is big and there's creep everywhere
Still, your video were informative and fun to hear into. This is but a small addition fron me :)
The interesting thing I recently noticed in dota is that since new frontiers patch(I dunno about the previous ones because I didn't play for a very long time and got back to the game right after new frontiers got released) It's also possible for a hero from different position to become a n unstoppable force who will truly carry the game. Obviously not every hero but there are some offlaners and midlaners who outscale even some of the hard carries.
For midlane the most noticeable would be OD. He doesn't need to buy dmg or attack modifiers because his dmg output comes completely from his Q. So only stats he has to focus on are attack speed and mana. However 5/6 slotted OD outdamages juggernaut, Anti-mage, Medusa etc. The only carry he cannot outdamage with full build in any matchup is Drow ranger simply because of how absurd amounts of agility Drows ulti provides on top of ignoring armor.
Another example would be Tinker who is often called a "pos 1 played on midlane" the idea for this hero is that you start with him on mid, however you need your safelaner to pick a hero who actually has some early game agency and spike on 1/2 items instea dof 3/4 items(like Ursa, juggernaut, Slark etc.) so Tinker can just flash farm entire jungle after laning phase.
On offlane I noticed particularly 2 hardest scaling champs which are Slardar and Centaur Warruner.
Both of those are icnredibly powerfull when 6 slotted and while they may not deal as much dmg as pos 1 carries do. Their tankiness allow them to become a true unkillable raidboss who just runs wherever he wants, stays on top of whoever he wants and kill them just 2/3 seconds slower then pos 1 would.
Slardar(with correct build) can easily get to 5000 HP, about 130 HP regen/sec with about 70% armor while magic resist si provided by BKB while 6 slotted. So he is incredibly tanky, and still smashes everybody with 500 dmg per auto attack further amplified by his enourmus 20 armor reduction.
Centaur on the other hand can get to 10 K HP during a teamfight when 6 slotted and with bought shard. And since all of his abilities, except hoof stomp scale with his strenght, he is gonna deal huge chunks of dmg to enemies and burst the down even in late game
please make a in depth video about the importance of turn rate and animation cancelling in dota
The reason melee carries are the norm in dota is because they have better scaling skills and better attribute scaling. Melee carries in contrast to ranged carries gain better strength and agility meaning better hp, armor, atk speed and dmg. They also tend to get better scaling skills such as faceless having a time lock which basicly amplifies all his right click dmg. Drow ranger's ult amplifies her agility when in range but she is too afraid to be in the fight because she is squishier due to having less strength and agility attributes. There are also laning advantages for melees not only the dmg block chance but also quelling blade, you also have items like manta that gives better illusions for melee.
I like your video, i feel like 90% of the info is correct i just wanted to be specific on the melee vs ranged topic in dota.
This is very well put! Though there are items with different scalings for melee and ranged champions in League, like Eclipse.
awesome video ! another thing I noticed is that DotA has often point-click homing CCs while almost everything in League is a skillshot so it's a bit more wary for DotA carries
btw, wouldn't you consider Obsidian, Necro, and Tinker as Hard Carries? at least in DotA 1 they were due to their extreme mana (though in the case of Necro it's more on like being tanky, extreme mana, and AoE %health shredding); there's also Kardel
I dont think OD and Tinker are the archetypical hard carry. They both really want levels fast, and so they go mid. OD also doesn't really farm very fast. Tinker can also really die very fast if he gets jumped on from fog. Necro can be played as a pos 1 though, especially with the more recent aghs change where he just becomes a raidboss.
Barely played league but the item choices sound horribly boring definetly a downgrade there is so much skill expression in buying items in dota
As someone who has played a lot of Dota, but mainly plays league, I think the dota item system is what i hate most about the game. Sure there's more skill expression with all of the options, but also, i find it so stupid that every single hero can have multiple stuns, silences and all types of crowd control, and also anyone can get cc immunity.
Great video, thanks for the effort and comparison!
I want to give some feedback for 12:25. Magic damage is king in lategame dota. When bkb's are running low lategame magic damage becomes very important. For most heroes magic resistance is not as high as armor is. This is why Reventant's Brooch was created for physical damage heroes to use this fact lategame (look at Mars double rapier rev brooch build). Pos 2's like Storm and Leshrac and scale extremely well into lategame and there are a plethora of items that boosts their archetype to punch at the level of traditional right click carries.
In conclusion, saying Dota's design philosophy for magic damage is that it falls of late game is a very outdated concept and items released in recent patches allude to this fact.
You know this is a very well thought out comment and I can't disagree. My take on this is that lategame, carries are still at the top, but it's just we've started seeing the emergence of the ultra late game phase as well in the past few years. 55+ minute thrillers, your team's starting to stack neutrals for Tier 5s, when your 5 CMs are starting to get BKB-Aghs and solo win teamfights. I would even say that in this iteration of the game, the power of magic damage is like some sort of reverse bell curve, where it goes down towards the midgame when people start to buy Glimmers, Pipe, BKB, and Shroud, but then it goes back up once the Glimmers get sold and the Aghs get bought.
SK Aghs is the main offender. Sieging high ground in the lategame against a Sniper or Drow + SK with Aghs Bloodstone is probably one of the hardest things to do in Dota. I mean you might as well give em back Shrines with how hard it is to go HG and the insane rubberband comeback gold doesn't help.
Also, since you mention it Revenant's Brooch is a horribly designed item. You spend a whole game itemizing against a physical damage carry, and then they buy Brooch and laugh at the 10k+ gold you've spent on armor items? I guess you could say the same with Nullifier, but even then it's a gimmicky item to use. Hopefully IceFrog can go back to the drawing board with this one.
Thanks so much for the feedback, and the insightful comment!
@@Acex2ron Thanks for the quick response! Have a great day
It's been a while since I last played Dota2 (6 years?), but isnt magic damage scales with int now? While not necessarily right clickers, there are many magic carry like Leschrac, Tinker, Invoker, Pudge (str hero as spellcaster carry), etc.
Uhhh I couldn't help but notice are you using Star rail penacony battle theme music as background? DAMN NICE TOUCh
patience, that is the difference between carry in dota and lol. I've noticed that carries in lol tend to get more impatient the minute it hit a 30mins mark, dota on the other hand 30 minutes is just the start of mid to late game depends on your hero. If you are picking a morph for example, it is very crucial for you to be patient because it'll take you to have 3 to 4 items to feel that you are playing a carry
Even some Dota players can get impatient! I've had my fair share of Voids trying to be the hero and landing a 3-man chrono only to have no followup lmao
(tho admittedly, that Void is sometimes me)
That str agi intel system bring some durability onto the table for pos1.
Also, thanks to Attributes and the skill tree where you can either pick a support trait or a damage trait in Dota, any hero can become a hard carry!
where do I put Silencer and Enchantress in? Been a while since I last played DotA
I would say most of it is the turn speed. Items and tankiness have an impact. But the ability to be to do damage while experiencing near 0 movement loss is so strong as a mechanic that in a different game called Starcraft, it's essentially the sole reason why Terran is viable.
nice video, i have a question for who plays both games, is it much easier to discern champs and minions in lol than in dota or it is just me who never played dota?
probably second, you'll probably get it after 5 mins
they have different health bars
Well, it all comes to amount of time you poured into a game. As non League player I can have a rough time distinguishing chars while with 5k hours in Dota I can see every minute detail of every hero. But I would say there are much less sets and cosmetics in Dota which will completely turn your hero into something ridiculuos and hardly distinguishable without knowing imo.
@@Chasodey True. When I started playing league after dota, it was often hard to discern characters with skins. Especially since there are so many characters that look kinda same. I saw a dude with a sword and because of cosmetics I couldn't tell if it's wiego, garen, yasuo, yi, or perhaps even aatrox. And when it came to the "female support spellcaster" characters, with cosmetics they were almost indistinguishable for me as a new player. At least Dota's cosmetics dont change characters color palette that much (usually).
in the past? yeah it's easier to discern in Lol than in Dota( well dota 1 specifically). Because Dota 1 has a hero/character asset which has the same character asset as the creep/minion, which is Na'ix/Lifestealer. Many got baited into thinking it was just a creep.
You should have a video about "Tanks" in DOTA and League.
Up until i quit league, as a support i had felt over the years that the tower was becoming more and more of a big stone pillar giving you a false sense of security than an actual , you know, deterrent for the enemies
Where there is Star Rail music, there is a comment about it. It's the law, and I will abide by it.
(Great work as usual btw)
I also threw in a Genshin track in there for a bit of variety
Btw pos 1 Leshrac has almost always been a thing. Gyro pos 1 is also entirely magic damage early on.
I see Leshrac and I build Mage Slayer and suddenly his spells hit like a wet noodle, but good points though. Gyro just turns into a one-man teamfight late game dealing magic and physical damage!
In reeg, top, jungle, mid and adc are all capable of being the team's main DPS and wincon. The ADC just feels like one of the gang. If you're a carry player in dodka and want to carry in league, you could pick any role bar sup.
11:09 blud really called his mid clinkz pos1 with a safelane medusa on the team
9:55 isnt it every 4 min after first drake ?
In the department of laning stage you didnt mention denys and creep aggro
How long that passive damage reduction was on melee heroes? It has been a long time since I last played dota2 (more than 4 years).I know there was a shield you can buy for passive damage reduction but as passive I never knew that.
in the patch that they remove that shield. they added the shield effect as an innate ability to all melee heroes.
@@momochiyoda2960 Ah I see, thanks for explaning.
first?
Anyway, i really enjoy these videos as a league player! Never really got into dota, have tried it but found it way too difficult. I find it really interesting seeing these comparison videos where its not just constant shitting on the other game for absolutely no reason
The difference is in league your screen gets this gray shade while you watch netflix
i htink the recent esl birmingham, with carry luna, gyro. weaver show at least in comp, its not only melee at all .
I swear, I had this playing in the background and I was dead confused why HSR music was playing.
You forgot a certain evil mastermind who took a support hero in DOTA 2, turned it into a hard carry, and laughed all the way to winning TI9.
I ‘member, but unfortunately that was a 1-patch thing and they nerfed it out of the game
I do think you're forgetting about quite a few ranged hard carries in dota such as luna, TA, Medusa, and gyro
15:14 did you say "Hyper-carry like Bane or Spectre.."?
vayne or spectre
I think any core in dota can be carry too there are "midlane carry" heroes such as TA and sniper , you also have offlane carry heroes like razor and huskar.
Yep, especially snowball carries that need a good early game actually cant function from the safelane. Lesh, QoP, Storm, and recently even Puck can all end up hard carrying a game but only out of the midlane because they need the head start on levels.
*QoP really only up until last year she sucks now her stat gain advantage is less relevant and it's become easier to weather her insanely strong orchid and bkb timings with the larger map
Magic carries aren't that meta in dota because at the end of the day physical damage is the only damage type that determimes on how slow or fast you destroy enemy buildings.
I know that might sound weird as it is the same in LOL. but dota heroes can buy back. And often if even one enemy core bought back it will lead your team that is not careful to over commit then die or straight up just lose the game.
meanwhile, honkai star rail playing in the background
yeah, i heard that ember
Riot pretty much dismantled AD Carry role as "carry" and made every role being able to carry plainly through damage. AD Carries are now simply "marksmen", AD mages with more periodic and less burst damage. Basically you have only 3 roles in League: jungle support and laner.
Is that fucking star rail music?! I thought I've gone mad and I'm hearing the calyx fight music even when I'm not fighting it! (Firefly needs her mats)
I just got Aventurine and I've been listening to the Penacony themes for 4 days farming his mats lmao
@@Acex2ron Hah, I really love the music, so I'm not really complaining. :D I sadly lost on Aventurine, but I got Gepard, so I'm not too sad. At least I can guaranteed get Robin and Firefly as well. Good luck on your pulls! (and great video btw, I don't play either game anymore, but I still like to watch videos about them)
muerta was played as support only at debut. after the tweaks, she's played as pos 1
I think you should mention that league has SUPPORT CARRIES like Pyke, Senna, Ashe support, Veigar support, etc
Not enough data showed on the screen. Too much game replay.
Also I thought I tab out while farming on Penacony
What you said about stats isn't quite right, carries can have wildly different builds some of them with very few of the 3 attributes in. The main reason for the difference is that in dota there are very few pure damge items and on top of that a lot of heroes don't even want the stats that they give, whereas in league items are literally designed to compliment eachother with the crit chance so you're usually throwing if you go tank items on adc whereas in dota since there's no need to stack crit chance people are free to go heart etc if they really wanted to on a carry.
As carry in Dota you must master the last hit mechanic. It is hard enough as it is, but sometimes you are against a hero who deals more damage than you, thus denying their creeps before you can kill them, making you need to pull/aggro or use your spells to last hit.
I've been in situations that I need to tell my team that I might leave my lane, because even though I have not died, nor lost the lane per se (like losing the tower), I have very low CS and I am not growing enough to be of significance when needed. And some carries are the very definition of greed.
Addition edit: This very same scenario of having the last hits denied will have you being lvl 4 while the enemy is lvl 5-6. Because you got denied gold and exp.
Hearing "this actually allows for more dynamic composition" and realizing you are talking about league made me do the pikachu face, ngl
I wish Melee carries were in League so badly. They are so fun in Dota and I wanna play something like Yi or Trynd bot lane for a change.
You forgot some mages that do scale well with items, like Overworld Devourer that stacks really well with mana pool and attack speed, and Silencer that stacks really well with intelligence and attack speed
Which aren’t usually played in the 1 because they need levels to function
@@Acex2ron That is true, but I've seen some being used as 1 sometimes, they can perform well against carries that also need to scale and can't capitalize much on early game, though that is offmeta
When it comes to item scaling, dota also incorporates alot of defense in their carry build, butterfly with evasion, falcon with hp, bkb etc, Making carries way tankier than league adc where they buy an item with DAMAGE, crit (Rng damage), attack speed (faster damage) and a passive that deals MORE DAMAGE.
I really like how dota manages to give every hero tank and dmg items in 6 slots. Meanwhile league champs are just dmg item heroes. No defense for them. Weaklings.
@@Lastofhiskind_ That's what I hate. They don't have a defined role in combat. They are both tanker and damage dealer when fed, making it a much more one side battle for the winning side, while also making other role feel worthless since it's would reach a point where the match is decided by 2 carry duking out with each other.
@@cynt4416 every hero can be tanky and dmg dealers at the same time making the game intense. I don't understand why league cucks cry so much about how differently dota works. Grow up and touch grass.
I think the main difference is that everyone can build carry in dota2 given enough time and farm. Not sure with lol but the last time I played everyone was mostly stuck to roles given to them.
Leauge use to have a late game , but riot wanted shorter match timers on adverage so they added damege everywhere excpt carry aince rhey aleeady did damage now matchs are won and lost on 20 mins late game is getting to 3 items,
Interestingly enough, I would've thought that position 5//support would've been the most difference just because of how absolutely broke they are in dota, but Riot's made a lot of changes over the years to give supports high passive income to the point where they frequently find themselves playing mid/late-game teamfight DPS carries of varying kinds in the recent years.
Key difference in both games. In dota You have ways (item) to guard yourself from the enemy but I league it comes down to "better positioning", else rengar gets you
Which is funny, because IMO dota's turn rate mechanic makes right click carries way weaker if they're forced to retreat
One important difference in LoL is not in how the carries function but in how they lane and how the game plays out. Dota has the safe/suicide lane dynamic. The late game carries often don't lane against each other. But in LoL lanes are symmetrical. The two carries always lane against each other. Which means that, unless you have a chill even lane where the teams both go 0/0/0, one of the two late game carries is going to win lane and come online earlier than they normally would and one is going to be pushed even further behind and never reach the point in the game they're actually capable of doing anything. Having the two carries lane against each other means a lot of the time one is going to win and one is going to lose lane and it will warp the midgame.
Other hero: They're playing under tower, we gotta respect that and avoid diving
lvl 1 undying: Is this some kind of peasant joke that I'm too tank to understand?
The *REAL* key difference for carries from League and DotA 2, you will get called racial slurs in Russian in DotA 2
And even if you do your job, your mother’s sexual integrity will be called into question if/whenever somebody else makes a mistake.
I think you undersold dota's core diversity a bit.
Some heroes that can totally scale into the late game without relying on physical right click damage:
Invoker - apm mage: sooo many spells to cast.
Tinker - constantly refresh item and ability cooldowns
Leshrak - disco pony constant aoe damage
Storm spirit - invulnerably zipping around without cd
Outworld Destroyer - pure damage based on max mana
Necrophos - percentage dmg aura and ult that stuns and deals dmg based on missing health.
But these are all traditionally midlaners, not Position 1s
that disco pony has brightened my day
You missed the Dota SEA Meta where everyone is a carry, no one plays support and buys wards. If someone picks support they also just buy carry items, and every game goes 40+ minutes
I think you forgot one thing is that hard carries aren't defined by the Heroes but with their items. One can say that luna is hard carries but you can go magic luna with aghs and refresher depending on the match. Same with zeus, you can go normal magic build or go ham with shards and manta style. There is a player called 2B where he really chooses your typical hard carries heroes to soft support and its works. Idk about Lol so I can't say anything about it but correct me if I am wrong but I get the feeling that if you chooses wrong heroes for wrong lane, you are griefing the game right?
its this the same 2B that parties sometimes with SingSing?
My friend, ranged carries are much more. widespread than you think. Here is list of the ranged-carry heroes that could be witnessed in a pro scene: Lina (physical) , Zeus (physical), Muerta, Troll, Shadowfiend, Templar Assassin, Luna, Razor, Arc Warden, Leshrac, Morphling, Weaver, Medusa. And this is not even a full list.
Extremely varied too. None of these guys play any similar to one another. Sadly the only ranged carry I can play competently is Gyrocopter.
Oh for sure! I got the most popular heroes played primarily as Pos 1 over Dota 2's lifespan on Dotabuff, and that's where I got the info. I'm just hesitant to put a few of those as ranged "carries" since Arc Warden is played mid, Razor is played offlane, etc.
Also idk whether to classify Troll as a ranged carry since he's in melee form like 80% of the time
Ranged troll is a joke, and lesh just doesn't rely on his attack damage, he is eager to get as close as he can to maximize his W and R dmg
The point he's trying to make is melee carries are nonexistent in LoL compared to Dota
@@Dokurider melee carries exist in Lol, they're called fighters, they're generally in the Top Lane solo (sometimes played in mid and at one point in lieue of the ranged carry), in general top lane is mostly for Tanks/Fighters/Bruisers and certain niche ranged scaling carries like Kayle, there's also niche ranged carries to counter but they're generally have to have a decent team composition and teamwork to pull off
In league the carries are more often ranged because league has no turn rates and you’re free to kite and auto attack in between moving away from your enemy.
In late game Dota position 2 and 3 can also carry. 4 and 5 not so much.
in Dota, Carry is only the hardest role if you have never played a moba. If you have base knowledge on how the game works then the hardest is probably Mid or position 4 (they have similar roles)
Playing both I definitely prefer carry in League. Drake and the general laning structure forces you to be active in the game way more. A lot of DOTA carrying feels like you just afk for 20 minutes to get the items then show up.
You've forgotten to mention brooch that gave magic right click damage. Unfortunately it was nerfed in 7.35d
do play dota or PoE can make me better at LoL ?
I sure love my 70 minutes 6 slotted Arc Warden pos 1.
BKB is one of the reasons Mages suffer as a damage dealers.
You didn't mention how abilities scale which is a HUGE reason why melee carries historically have had such a bad time in LoL. But honestly, in Lol you can have roles other than ADC also carry late game, which doesn't really happen in DOTA without large skill difference.
Dota has a ton of items to scale with magic damage, and Magic damage heroes are more likely to be the ones who've dealth the most damage to the enemy by the end of a match. Zeus, Lina, Timber, Veno, QoP, Necrophos, Leshrak or even supports like Jakiro or Techies are often the ones who has the highest "damage dealt" on the end match stat screen. Kaya gives raw magic amp, but Veil gives spell damage taken debuff, Eblade gives you temporary -40% resistance, Aghs often opens new avenues to deal damage (Qop, Necrophos), Parasma puts another -25% magic resistance, Octarine reduces cooldowns to spam spells more often and Refresher allows to double up your combo in a lategame fight to deal tremendous damage. With all of that plus mandatory 1-2 defensive slots every hero needs regardless of position (for casters it's usually Windwaker and Linkens/BkB) you easily fill up your full inventory. Not to mention that Rapier now has Spell Amp mode. Carry is always a righclick core because you need to quickly take objectives while the enemy team is dead - that is the most reliable win condition. In those drafts where you have structure damage from pos 2 (Tiny, Lesh) or pos3 (zoo heroes) you sometimes see Necrophos or like Doom emerge as Pos 1 (but that's rare). Also that is the same reason why heroes like Riki never stick as a pos1 outside of low(ish) end pubs, because they take forever to kill the base.
Turn Rate
Gameplay-wise, having characters take time to turn also telegraphs their intentions, albeit briefly. While it might be irrelevant for the majority of players, professional Dota athletes and high-MMR hardcore gamers often derive a great deal of information from the way their opponent moves and can react accordingly much earlier. Dota is a fast-paced game, but it is fair and in most situations it allows the players to counter-play, courtesy of turn rates.
Turn rate is the opposite of fast-paced
@@cynt4416 It slows changes in hero movement, but increases the speed at which decisions can be made, as it provides information that you wouldn't otherwise have. It also more heavily punishes poor decision making, as choosing to be out of position and then changing your mind has increased consequences. Dota has very little mechanical requirements compared to League. The vast majority of its abilities are either targeted or have a significant AOE, and what skill shots exist rely more on game sense and mind games to land than mechanical skill. Dota is a game primarily about decision making and positioning, being in the right place and making the right decisions quickly, decisively, and correctly. League is closer to an action game than Dota is, in that it primarily rewards reaction speed, timing, and aim. You win League by using your kit better than your opponent. You win Dota by THINKING better than your opponent. And sure, there's crossover (primarily through the champ/hero pools) for each in terms of the doing/thinking focus, but largely, that distinction in the goals and strengths of both games holds up. Turn rate makes sense for Dota where it stands now, and its easy to see how its existence in the WC3 engine influenced what players and designers found rewarding in early Dota and as the game matured, even if it wasn't specifically acknowledged. Likewise it wouldn't make any sense and feel terrible in how League exists now. My honest guess is that it was probably overlooked during early development of the proprietary engine by the (at the time) amateur developers of League, and its absence likely influenced what felt fun during early playtesting, and so the design of the game focused more on action and input. (A major goal of Guinsoo and Riot was to simplify the game mechanics of DotA in order make the onboarding process less of an insurmountable mountain of knowledge, so it's equally as likely that they did consider it but said "too many things to think about" and cut it out of their game design doc early on. Either way, my point stands.)
@@DaKilldozer So in other words, it's less of an action game but more like a chess game, where once you decide on your turn, it's their opponent turn and you can do nothing about it?
If it's a chess game then have no problem with it. I do quite abit of chess after all. But when I go into a game of MO(Battle)A, what I seek is fast pace battle that test ALL of it. Decision making, skill, reflex, precision, anticipation, knowledge, etc... Dota can only cater to half of it.
Turn rate is a legacy from WC3 physic system, so is CS denying. It's an obstacle for the adrenaline of the "battle" in MOBA. I doubt with turnrate, combat in Lol would be remotely as exciting, like Fake vs Ryu for example.
@@cynt4416but dota does require you to have reflexes and mechanical skill. Yeah in dota it is not the main focus but truth is dota is a hard game and not many people can both master macro and perfectly micro his hero at the same time. And people often choose the former to focus on.
The heroes in dota may seem basic but if you want to get complex, it gets REALLY complex. You can have up to 6 active items, plus a neutral slot which can also be an active. Aghs and shard often give 1 more skill to use. So on a 'normal' hero you can have up to 11 buttons to press in the late game (technically 12 but tp scrolls shouldn't count). And that's for 'normal' heroes. When arc warden, tinker, micro heroes enter the picture, oh boy. Meepo is surely the hardest hero to pilot in the genre, no questions.
@@absolutelynotadog7498 Chess is also a hard game. But it's not exciting. Playing basketball on a wheelchair is also harder than normal basketball, still not as fun as a NBA match.
Harder is not equal to better. Complex doesn't mean better either. What type of "harder" also matter. I mean, playing basketball in a wheelchair mean you have much worse turn rate than an NBA player.
The golden rule is "Easy to play, hard to master". Dota failed particularly at the first phrase.
comparing DotA to LoL is like comparing chess to solitaire , Dota has much more possibilities