LoL carries late game: RPG damage dealers, who need tanks and healers combo backing them up. Dota carries late game: actually quite diverse: some can tank the whole enemy team while dishing out remarkable damage (like Spectre and Medusa), some are slippery hit-and-run powerhouses (like Slark and Anti-mage) but some are also RPG damage dealers, who need tanks and healers combo backing them up (like Drow Ranger and Sniper). EDIT: I actually had written this comment before I watched the clip. The video covers it incredibly well. I shouldn't have posted such a mood comment.
As someone who has played both games for a long time, I find the differences between the two games really fascinating. They sometimes look similar if you haven't played both, but it's almost like they're made for completely opposite types of people. Not just in their gameplay, but in their fundamental design philosophy. It's no wonder most Dota players can't stand League, and most League players never get interested in Dota.
Couldn't have put it better myself! League isn't Dota, and Dota isn't League, so they'll never be each other and arguing over which is better is pointless. But it's still fun to discuss the differences between the two biggest names in the genre.
5:25 100% slow in dota doesn't actually make a hero completely unable to move, but instead sets their ms to 100, which the minimum ms for heroes and is one third of the average base ms.
You can get 0 ms by walking into Disruptor's Kinetic Field or Mars' Arena of Blood. The display won't show 0 ms, but you know that's how it works because if you're hit by those debuffs and try to launch an Ember Remnant, the thing will literally not move a pixel.
The main difference is that in the lategame a carry in dota is a strong and, sometimes, tanky, right-clicker, which shows the product of all the farming needed to achieve that point. In league of legends, you are a bag of gold that gets oneshot without any kind of counterplay if there is a character called "Rengar" in the game
League also has raid boss hard carry as well. Lilia, Shyvana, Evelyn, Master Yi, etc. are your DOTA hardcarries. Riot just nerfed them out of existence. And the Windshitter, don't forget them
@@Acex2ron They need to nerf assasin reduce tank scaling and remove the bounty system. League is getting more and more boring with how regid the meta is. I feel like only top and jungle mattered in league unless riot decide to say no and balance them to oblivion. But refuse to nerf op champs.
I love how in Dota the definition of a carry is p much just "given enough gold you become unstoppable" and that can mean anything from a sniper shooting up highground to an insta killing es with daedalus
What's also really fun is that dota has moved more and more towards a design that lets heroes play multiple types of roles. Yes there are some heroes that are meant for specific things but the role flexibility is mcuh greater than it first seems. Take terrorblade for example. He's long been seen as a definitive hard carry, and for good reason. However I've seen people take a look at him and go "hmm, I can use my illusions to scout, I got a strong attack buff so I can deal damage even without items, I can make illusions of enemies which turns their power against them and this spell is completely item independant, and I can save my carry with my ult. Yes I'll play hard support terrorblade that sounds good". Ogre magi is another one. He might not be able to play as pos 1 but he can absolutely build himself into a brawler that bashes people's faces in, or a support mage that focuses on spellcasting, or some sort of hybrid. Omniknight can either be a support who saves his carry, or a fighter who protects his friends in the process. Dark Willow can either be a highly disruptive support or a straight up ranged assassin. Hell even heroes like crystal maiden and dazzle, the quintessential definition of a support hero, can play as a mid laner and become a monstrously strong right clicker with the right build. There's so much flexibility in what you can do in dota.
@@carljohan9265unfortunately, that means the knowledge check on individual heroes is that much higher. There's so many unexplained and overemphasized mechanics in Dota that starting is a huge hurdle. But it does seem like as long as you play your own game, you can just ignore heroes and just focus on the items, which simplifies the lategame by a LOT.
@@Elephanthobo No, you must certainly can't ignore what your team is doing because that's how you end up being the one who farms creeps half a screen away from your team dieing and then get (rightfully) blamed for that loss. Map awareness is absolutely critical and being where you need to be is more important than getting that 300 gold.
@@carljohan9265 League used to be the king of flexibility or any build, but with their kind of game philosophy they just nerf any build they don't like like AP Yi, on-hit neeko, semi-tank Vayne, old ADC Thresh and the ancient crit Alistar. There's also crit Aatrox but only works in URF. League is the only moba who's carry's time gets worse and worse as the game gets longer if both sides are equal(neither is feeding, but with same items, League ADC always gets 1 shot first), unless the ADC gets ultra hyper mega fed and ends early so the assassins cant buy items, its the only case ADC is strong.
Dota's design is basically gold funneling, puting all the resources on 1 or 2 player, where league tries to spread out resources. LoL also had gold funnel meta before but it was boring to play and unfair.
In League you get to scale all your abilities through your items, where as in dota, your skills will scale far more with just raw experience. For carries, their late game potential usually comes down to how these abilities synergize with key items, where as supports and mid-game based mages scale mostly with getting levels to scale up their damage, and use items for utility. There aren't a lot of crit items in dota, but assassins attain it mostly through skills that give critical strike. Phantom lancer is hard to kill because his ultimate makes illusions, and illusions get to benefit from health scaling of strength, and the damage from agility.
From my personal experience (as a newbie in league and old-time player in dota) it's much more fun to play carry in dota than to play adc in league. I like dota's macro and item build choises much more. Items in dota can offer you cc, movement, survivability in form of extra health, armor, lifesteal, dispels. And in league it's just damage, attack speed, crits. While some items have additional passive components, they don't feel that interesting. What makes playing adc a literal torture for me is the fact that all adcs are just glass cannons which get one shot by everyone else. You need to have incredibly good positioning and your team has to protect you from enemy assasins/bruisers diving and deleting you in a fraction of second. But there is no reason for them to protect you because in league everyone can carry and your damage dealing capabilities don't matter that much, since anyone else can dish out pretty good damage while also having better mobility / survivability / cc. As an adc you build only damage to keep up with everyone else, while some tank builds nothing but hp and armor but has abilities that scale with his health, allowing him to deal good damage while also being harder to kill. Playing assassin is a high-risk/high-reward playstyle. While playing adc is basically very high-risk/low-reward. I can deal much more damage when playing lux support, hitting enemies from an actually safe distance, which is harder to cover with a built-in dash that every new champ has. Or I can go toplane with some easy to grasp frontlane champ, just turn off my brain and run into enemies. Or i can play assassin and just insta-gib most characters without breaking a sweat. I'm not really good on akali but damn sometimes I roll my face on keyboard and miss half of my abilities and still manage to easily kill some poor squishy without almost any counterplay availible to them. And I can kinda do all this stuff while playing carry in dota, since there are so many different carries with different playstyles. But even when I play drow, who is similar to adc's in league (long-range glass cannon), it's still much more fun. I actually have items which help me survive like pike, bkb or manta. And my team actually plays around me because I'm their main source of damage, so I can usually expect that my support will help me if I get jumped and my frontlaner will lock down enemy team so I can shoot them. It also doesn't help that carries are supposed to scale well into late game, but due to snowballing, players being easily tilted and surrender option available at 15min mark, most games just end before adc can even hit a major powerspike and become an actual character that can do stuff.
Haha, the FF15 mentality is one of my most hated attitudes in League. Like, I feel like half my games in League don't even make it past 3 completed items because one of the teams will quit. Why even plan a build order at that point when you only need 2-3 core items per game.
@@SadFace201 The saddest thing is that mentality isn't necessary completely wrong. As far as I know, people on higher ranks FF15 much more often because players are better at using their leads. So when one team snowballs, they won't give their enemies a chance to comeback. People know that and just end the game at 15 min mark because sometimes there is literally no reason to continue playing because of how snowbally the game is. Also playing when behind in league is extremely frustrating as there isn't much you can do, especially when playing with random people. It's much harder to comeback in league than in dota imo. The game is just designed this way, since rito want short mathes that end in less than 30 minutes, and too many possibilities for comeback might prolong the game too much. And because of that I think a lot of people don't put much effort in playing. The commitment is low, so to speak. Why try hard when others in your team might lose their lanes so hard you'll have to FF15? And if you fail because you haven't tried hard enough, it's not a big deal, since you can just FF15 and try again! Absolutely ridiculous game design. That said, on lower elo it's still very much possible to win even when you're behind, because people there aren't that good at the game and prone to making stupid mistakes which can cost them the entire game.
@@savekla Oh yes, I'm aware that League is far more snowbally than dota. The lack of mechanics that can be leveraged in League means that there's very little you can do to comeback barring the enemy team from royally fucking up, which happens rarely in higher ELOs. That's why they used to have that statistic many many years ago that in pro-play the team ahead at 10 min has a 90% chance to win the game. I'd assume that still holds true today since Riot hasn't really added anything that would significantly encourage comebacks.
Much more fun for you, less fun for the 9 other player playing with you when you get fed. Adc in Lol still need team to help him function even if they are fed. Support player will still feel like they make a difference late game. But top lane in lol have the same problem as carry in Dota. When they are fed, they are both tanky and deal high damage, making the match much more oneside and turn to a boring stat check.
@@cynt4416 I'd rather have someone named "Carry" be stronger than average and able to actually carry the game, instead of dying to a sneeze in their general direction. I mean, if you are weak early on and spend at least 20 minutes farming for items to play the game, than it better be worth it in the end. Carries in dota start off weak and through levels and items become late game menace. Carries in league feel like they need levels and items to just be on the same level as others, if not worse, since they don't have built-in survivability, mobility or utility that other roles have, while everyone else has those thing and still can deal damage pretty good damage. Still, carries in dota rarely get hyperfed so much they can really 1v9 without any help from their team, especially at higher skill levels. Even if they do get a good start, carry without team will have hard time dealing any damage if they are playing against at least somewhat competent players, as they'll just get kited/cc'd, all while there is no one to hold enemies in place with cc, or save them with utility spells/items. No matter if you have ton of damage and bkb, enemy team can still cc you with abilities that go through bkb and focus you with all they have, which is almost always a guranteed death. I honestly rarely feel like I'm having less fun because my carry is popping of. If I stop doing my thing, they will usually get overwhelmed, since I'm not helping them either directly or by applying pressure somewhere on the map. And if the enemy carry is fed, than of course I'm going to have less fun, since I'm currently losing, duh. And there is plenty counterplay and ways to comeback when you're behind. Unless the score is like 0-20. In late game, supports, just like any other role, still can have huge impact on the game. At the very least, they can provide their team with vision and useful utility items for save/buffs. Most support characters have incredibly powerful spells, which can be gamechanging. Dazzle's W is Tryndamere's ult for a teammate. Vengeful Spirit's ult allows her to swap positions with a champion, which can be used to save teammates or ruin enemy's positioning. Crystal Maiden's ult can deal tons of magic damage in a team fight. Ogre's buffs can greatly improve his team's survivability and dps. Good supports are often the ones focused first in teamfights if possible, because they can easily turn your good engage into a lost teamfight by saving their cores or cc'ing your team. Not to mention that early game falls almost enterily on support's shoulders. And again regarding whole thing about fed players being unstoppable. In league toplaners and junglers become 1v9 deathmachines. But champs that usually play those roles are pretty strong even in early game. So they get to play from the start and get to play even more if things go their way. While carries in dota are weak at the start, but become stronger than anyone else late in the game. Makes more sense to me that someone who's weakest early becomes strongest in the end, Instead of someone who is already pretty strong early becoming even stronger as time goes by.
A support main here. I haven't really played dota 2 in quite a while, but I feel like it's a lot more necessary to support for your hard carry whereas in LoL, I think very little of abandoning an underperforming ADC in favor of helping a higher performing player. I think it's because of the abundance of hyper carry champs who can 1v9 with cataclysmic late game damage in other positions like Gwen, Bel'Veth, and Master Yi. A snowballing Yone is worth far more of my attention as a win condition than a 0/3 Jinx. Hell, there are even support champs like Senna and Pyke who can hard carry if I REALLY don't trust my team.
This is a very good point that I'm bookmarking for the Support video! Because of the nature of League, it's a lot better for the team if the support abandons the underfarmed (or just plain bad) ADC and goes to gank mid or top, or joins the Jungler in applying roam pressure. But it's also the case for Dota, where if your lane is lost beyond salvaging, it's better to sack it and the carry goes to farm the jungle whereas their 5 support goes to support other lanes. This usually means that the enemy has to do the same, sending the 3 and 4 in response, thus opening up the lane for your carry to farm!
@@Acex2ron lemme enter another comment XD Recently(since they added Void grubs) roaming supports had more success over non roaming ones, cuz of the map pressure and a fact that any role in League can be a “carry” role. And I mean any, cuz even on something like bard or soraka or Nami one good combo or rightfully placed ward can turn a fight around, cuz how different dote and league is
@@Acex2ron but carry in dota still can scale hard because jungle camp in dota in safelane is same size as whole camp in league. there also portal to top now. make carry/support to gank offlane or otherwise. while league biggest thing you can farm is siege minion cause jungle camp worth little for adc making it harder to scale like other winning role
@@psychokuca302 in dota when you play turbo 3 minute is minimum time you gonna get gank while minimum 5-10 minute you go out of lane. in all pick is 5 minute for early gank and 15-20 minute to leaving lane. as post 5 you shouldn't leave your carry alone if you carry jungle you protect the lane and warding jungle. but as post 4 you the one who most likely to roam to give either post 3 get more xp or helping other lane.
@@johnlloydvillanosa3582 Muerta is magic damage, yes, but she is closer to Drow or Medusa or Sniper in her type of gameplay when Pudge is something completely different (I personally play Pudge as Pos 3 and into damage build, it's so fun to see people MELT)
Something you missed about the prevalence of melee carries in Dota is actually attack animations. Aside from most melee carries having faster attack animations than ranged cores, they also don't have to deal with attack travel time. This means that it's generally easier to last hit and assuming stats and items were the same, a faster animation means more damage. It's been evened out a lot but Terrorblade was a huge addition because he had the same attack point as Antimage. And back in the day, Antimages attack animation was considered so good that some players would buy blink dagger and only level stats.
I think it also has something to do with the fact that melee heroes generally have a lower BAT, so they always get effectively more benefits from items, i swear maelstrom hits way more times when i play void than when i play Sniper simply cause BAT makes it so that void always hits faster on the early game when you only have 1 item
Just a small note; Muerta was not the first Magic Damage carry; Outworld Devourer, Leshrac, Tinker, Dazzle, and Sniper were at one point all magic damage carrys. Tinker and Dazzle got nerfed into support roles (Dazzle was originally there, but Tinker was a carry since the WC3 days). Sniper's headshot and shrapnel got reworked to not work on buildings and (for headshot) be bonus attack damage rather than a magic dmg tick. Lesh and OD are still quite strong but not popular because they require a decent amount of skill. Also DotA doesn't have many items that improve spell damage directly (Parasma, Veil, Shivas, & Kaya's various upgrades), but they do still have a lot of items that improve spell damage (cooldown reduction, range increase, spell lifesteal, int based magic damage amplification, repositioning tools, etc.)
@@3044Smike that’s not about skill and more about having a brain. Literally just spam astral in mid and you win the lane. OD is one of the easiest heroes to play
@@xfatoushe-6908 "using a brain" is a skill a vast majority of dota players don't have my guy. Also I was talking about teamfights not laning. My point stands, it requires a small amount of skill; i aint saying hes invoker or meepo or smth, but hes not sven or antimage. He's in the lower middle range.
@@xfatoushe-6908 OD definitely requires skills, if you think deal great damage is all a hero needs then you would be wrong. OD is squishy, cannot reliably escape, extremly susceptible to BKB and silence. He is easy to deal with the guy playing OD is an idiot. That is why you do not see a lot of OD players in pubs.
You may think the pos 1 carries in dota, wait till you see the late game pos 5 snap who left to jungle at min 40 and reenters the game with Daedalus+25 talent and 1 shots your 3 cores
@@YZaiCreates 9 slotted techies with infinite cast range is a thing now alongside with techies that has 9000 attack range and attack speed and is murdering your team from across the screen.
Spell based carrys do exist in dota2( pudge, Lesh). However unlike league, dota isnt about skillshots and bursts, not always. So when it comes to spell based carrys, they are tanky mfs who you wont be able to deal with. Pudge as a pos1 doesnt out damages you, he out healths you.
Pudge is a relatively new addition to the carry role, but that is true! They're DPSes for sure, but they just ramp up damage over the fight. Guess that's another archetype to add to Dota's carry roster
@@Acex2ron relatively new is.. well I guess relative. Pudge carry has been a thing since they reworked agh and if I'm not mistaken, it was Matu who made it popular in ti11. But again, about spell based carries, they have existed for a long time but most of them are very risky picks. You have heroes like pudge and lesh who wanna out-live you and you have heroes like OD, Silencer, Winter Wyvern who wanna right click you down asap.
@@Acex2ron Not really relatively new. It was very meta 2 years ago after a series of buffs, got reworked into his current Aghanim's and his 3rd skill becoming an active and we got to see it in action when TI11 rolled around and boy was he contested a lot before playoffs. He didn't do so hot later coz Leshrac was a better alternative and both didn't do well either when wraith pact and damage reduction strats crushed them.
@@imfinishedgrinding638 Im 99% sure he meant relatively new in the lifespan of the game. If you picked carry pudge 5 years ago you were going to low prio, no questions asked.
If you ignore Revenant's Broach, I think the only real magic damage pos 1 left in Dota is Arc Warden. Most other pos 1 heroes that deal magic damage are better described as mixed damage heroes (Lina, Faceless Void, Juggernaut, Meepo and so on). That said, Revenant's Broach now means that a lot of physical damage carries can shift entirely to magic damage. Means that PA can five shot your 9k HP Centaur, and kill your 2 supports from off screen with the triple dagger. Also, the reason Muerta is played as a supprt is not because she is not good as a core. In Dota, a hero becomes a support if they can do well without items. They become a pos 4 support if they are also good with items. This means that gold is being used more effectively - it goes to the heroes that _really_ need it. It's also why Marci and Dawn are played at pos 4 - they don't need gold to be effective, but they are really good at using gold to get even more effective at using their kit.
They change arcwarden attack magic damage to physical damage cause its to strong it can easily kill a non magic resistance build offlaner when arcwarden first build manta.
11:59 mfer forgot about shotgun morphling back when EBlade was an agi item. Also, there's about enough mid or offlaners that can snowball on their own enough to carry, see your usual ember spirits, tinkers, bristlebacks, legion commanders and so forth, who get a 2-0 or 3-0 advantage in their lanes and then win the game for you.
Some points i'd like to add about magic/spell based carry in dota -divine rapier in dota gives 25% spell amp as of patch 7.35 and as of 7.35d it can be toggled between 25% spell amp or 250 attack damage. -revenant's brooch is an item that turns all your right clicks into magic damage but has a big mana cost per hit. -bristleback and pudge carry exist (existed? not in meta right now). some carries also has good magic damage (gyro, luna, arc warden, slark) but since the scaling is worse, they still build for right clicks. but yeah i do agree that in terms of pure power, magic damage scaling is higher in league than dota.
@@alexudumitreu1583 it is still "spell" based and even if the argument is "he still right clicks", he still wants to spam the spell to gain damage stacks from his ult. also, his quill stack damage is still boosted by kaya and its variants, rapier spell amp, and neutral items that boost spell damage.
Very lovely video. Great comparisons and as a Dota player, I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe except that Dota has been trying to make the intelligence carry role more of a thing in the recent years by introducing many magic and intelligence-based items. However, they also naturally introduced the counters. I think the intention of releasing Muerta was a breaking point since they introduced Revenant's Brooch (what Meurta carries on her back) before she was released, transforming physical damage into magical. I think it still needs some tweaks, but the very fact that Bristleback is often picked as a carry is indicative that you can sometimes pick a spell-caster carry.
Thanks for this comment! And I agree on the Revenant's Brooch. I think it's a good item in theory as a counter to armor-stackers like Axe and Timber, but still needs some tweaking. The removal of Khanda Rapier meta was a step in the right direction!
@@Acex2ron I'd say actual armor-stackers in dota are agility carries, as they get a lot of base armor, which also helps them to feel less squishy despite having less raw HP. And in general magic resist is usually lower than physical resist unless you specifically build an item to change that. Brooch has lost a lot of popularity after it stopped working with crits though.
@@Acex2ron khanda rapier was so nuts. i have lost counts of the times a PA or sniper with khanda rapier ruined a great game. basically the moment you saw those guys in the draft, you had to go blademail on enitre team. not a fun 6 weeks in dota
One scaling mage from dota that bears mentioning is Leshrac. Lesh has even seen brief periods of meta relevancy as a pos 1 on multi-core lineups, but he's been meta in every position at least once so perhaps that's not so surprising. There was also the period where all the carries went midlane and the safelane would often be casters/playmakers, but that was just the pos 1 being mid, rather than a caster being pos 1. I agree with the point about everyone in league being a carry while dota has the pos 1 win condition you funnel into, but I think it's worth mentioning, just as a point of interest/discussion, that power creep has been taking dota more down the league route. There is enough farm on the map to have 2-3 highly farmed cores now, and supports have seen a lot of love to the point where even your pos 5 can sometimes get a few big items and the pos 4 often turns into a 4th core. Plus with talents, aghs shards, and what not, adding extra power to casters, a pos 1 with bkb on cd could potentially just die 1v1 to even something like a lich or crystal maiden. That being said, I definitely prefer it this way to how dota used to be. I'm do not like league's extreme damage creep, and idk if I'd say dota has it right either, but at the very least I'll take CM solo killing the 4 items PA over the days when she'd be lvl 8 with brown boots and wand at the 30 minute mark. I also think there is a lot more that could be talked about with item differences. Dota doesn't actually have that many generic dps items like league. Most damage items come with some kind of survivability stat while league has a ton of items that are just damage. And maybe it's just me, but I feel like, as an adc, building tank just doesn't really do anything. I know tank kog'maw has seen some success, but there is so much damage that building just a bit of tank doesn't seem to make a difference, and if you go too far into tank you don't do enough damage. Then of course there is Blink Dagger, which makes marksman type heroes so much more vulnerable. I've always been curious about what effect blink dagger would have if you added it into league. Oh and thanks for making me feel old with that mordekaiser bit, but it doesn't make me feel as old as realizing how few people even remember the old runes and mastery system. I mean how many people would even know what you are talking about if you brought up "Thunderlord's" now?
I read "Leshrac" in your comment and I started building Mage Slayer out of habit lmao But in all seriousness, Leshrac does deserve a mention in hindsight, even though I think he's better as a Pos 2. I'm not sure if it was TI5 or TI6 where Leshrac was in pretty much every match, and Sumail was absolutely rolling with him. Very good point though on how the abundance of resources have changed the game over the years. Right now, I actually believe that Pos 1 is in the weakest it's ever been (and that says a lot, the role is still quite strong) with the nerfs to BKB and the abundance of supports with survivability items. Thanks to the gold changes, and Ammar, we're starting to see a lot of carry offlaners as well. The TTK is actually what allows item actives to be so much more useful in Dota. I've been stunned for over 6 seconds as Sven, but still lived long enough to pop BKB and Satanic just because the TTK is so low, whereas even a 1 second stun is enough to end my life, even as a Xin Zhao, in League. And my Hextech Gunblade Mordekaiser lives on in memory (and TFT)
@@Acex2ron Pretty sure it was TI5. Baumi has a neat channel, StoriesofDota, that covers the history of certain heroes by looking at them through the lens of their TI performances, and my recollection from the Lesh video was that his super OP patch, 6.84, was during TI5. I started dota the winter between TI2 and TI3 when he was played support, though, so I still have strong memories of him as that, and he's been an offlaner plenty of times as well. In fairness, Pos 1 is probably the role least often meta for him, I feel like there's only a few patches when it was anything but a rare, very niche, pick.
@@Acex2ron Indeed, pos 1 is really vulnerable these days and as a support main i am almost always certain that we can jump even a strong farmed pos 1 alone like its JJK and end him. I've been playing dota since 2012/2013 and i still remember the days when 30 minutes in the enemy carry that has been in the jungle all game would reveal himself like an anime villain and solo the entire team with no help or any difficulties. Sure, it was the early days when on a fundamental level players were a lot less knowledgeable and skilled, and what is now considered herald level game would have been a mid to high skill game.
One of the things that feels the most different being the carry in League is that in the early game it feels like there's less to do; in DOTA it's pretty common to farm up to a farming item and rotate in and out of jungle to more efficiently get gold. In League I was surprised that the jungle is off limits (because of junglers) and that 'picking up' lanes for exp/last hits when that lane's core is backing/dead is not common place (usually supports).
at least earlygame, you just dont have the damage to kill jungle camps. camps are super tanky early on and if you arent the jungler you take way too much damage and time to really make it worthwhile to kill camps. as for why you dont see people oicking up waves, i think its mostly just that it takes a lot of time. it takes like 20 seconds to walk to a lane and the summoner spell teleport has a 6 to 4 minute cool down thats better used to try and turn a fight
It's ALOT of things to do. You will be overwhelmed. Assume that you win lane and force the lanner to hug the tower, now you can deepward their jungle. Go with your own jungler to compete for crab/worm/herald/dragon. Or just make their jungler life miserable. Or even tower dive other lane. I literally don't have time to do them all as a jungler even if I don't intend to invade.
In terms of picking up lanes, it depends. If you go to roam to a lane, and let's say that laner dies, you might try to shove to have the wave crash and reset, or just trim the wave so that they can freeze. That or the jungle might cover something like mid while midlane roams, or maybe jungle helps kill top, top is too low to stick around so jungle shoves the wave, it's all just really based on circumstance.
What if for the next video you're talk about comeback mechanics in Dota and League or how is it to close the game between two games? Or is it already included in your gold mechanic? Thank you.. :3
You can carry with any role in DotA, not just pos1. Pos2 has the most impact early on due to leading exp and Runes. Pos3 is dynamite, most of the time they have to be active (in a good way) once the laning stage ends, so having a more active and efficient pos3 is decisive. Supports can carry in many different ways. If an Enchantress can deal about the dmg of cores with only half resource, she carried the game. A Rubik who always manage to use enemies Ultimate also has most impact. A Nyx who solo kill enemy carry over 3 times is definitely the game changer. DotA decide who did the most based on Imapct per Gold/Exp
in DotA the hardest position to play is Hard Support(the carries support) - the life of the carry becomes very easy if you have a really good support; a good support will stack, pull, denied and die for the carry; all position main goal in the DotA is to make space for the carry to farm, most people don't get that, that's why they lose; and the priority of Position 1(Carry) and Position 2 (Mid) can change of who gets the farm; position 3(core offlane) never has prio to farm, he always takes the unsafe farm and always prioritizes to make space.
Similar shit goes for league. The support usually dictates how the adcs life will go in the match. Bad support? You are likely to get stomped in lane Good support? You have a chance to stomp lane if you dont troll
@@Robert-cx3ns warding and ganking are part of a support's duties in league (though ganking is usually called roaming). Denying doesn't exist in league, period. Now idk what you mean by stacking and pulling though.
I think it is way easier to use active items in dota because of the simple fact the game is slower, there is not a way for a single not fed champ to oneshot you unless you are on the wrong place, on the other hand, in lol, if you are against any champion that got an item component 400 gold more expensive than yours, most likely he will burst you down or let you at 10hp and then wait to dive you
1 thing you forget is how sustain work in both lanes, in dota 2 with courier you can kinda make any lane work as long as don't get countered in the draft so you spam regen and just exist and its almost impossible to snowball dota 2 game and finish in 20-25 min when average game time is 40+, league is other way around, you not only limited on sustain but because game balanced around dodging spells not tank them if you start taking dmg in the face you lose laning phase in few min and after that you probably don't have time to farm/comback since enemy can from snowball finish at min 20-25
I would say it isn't that hard to snow ball in dota. You can literally demote offlaner into support. You can sustain as much as you want, you are just digging into your own networth with consumables. As an offlaner you don't have time to recover cuz you are ment to be active in the end of Laning phase to make space for others with really tight item timing. While the carry can take time to recover. As long as a carry trade even with offlaner, the carry is winning.
As someone who has played a lot of Dota, but mainly plays league, I think the dota item system is what i hate most about the game. Sure there's more skill expression with all of the options, but also, i find it so stupid that every single hero can have multiple stuns, silences and all types of crowd control, and also anyone can get cc immunity.
Yeah league players are notoriously bad with item shopping even with the limited options that are avalible, it should be flowcharted but many pro league players will lose simply by purchasing wrong. I think it's just a difference in depth of understanding build paths and lack of knowledge within the game tbh.
As someone who played a lot of both, I like that in Dota, you don't lose or win on character select screen, there is ALWAYS something you can do to negate the enemy's strengths, you just need to be knowledgeable on how to use your tools. It also makes far more heroes viable in Dota compared to league
Pos4 is the hardest, than pos2. Depending on the meta. Rn these 2 are the most important roles. Yes, you heard that right. lol playeres: carrys aren't always the most important role.
About 10 years ago, I would have agreed. But ever since they added free wards, free courier and flying upgrade, glimmer cape, stacking gold, tormentor, and twin gates, Wisdom Runes, and all that other jazz? I've never had so much gold playing as Lion!
The biggest difference in League and Dota is, in non-pro games, one person cannot win a game in League, but one person can lose it. Meanwhile in Dota, as long as the carry is fed and head and shoulders above all the other players in terms of skill, he alone can win a game, even if one or two of his teammates are actively trying to lose.
The thing I love about Dota 2 is that even with less characters it feels like I face more diverse comps with more room for players to make decisions for better or worse where as league feels more structured and streamlined when it comes to builds and team comp. Honestly love both, love stomping in either game even if it's balling out as miss fortune or bristleback
Great vid btw! But as a carry in immortal bracket, you can push the wave in Dota 2 because of the same reason in league, you get level 2 faster and pressure or even kill the enemy offlane. Also you can push the lane if you feel like you cant pressure the enemy offlane anymore (vanguard, blademail, etc) and by doing this you can speed up your farm. You also dont need to be the one who do the most damage. What I mean is sometimes you have a greedy mid or support who needs a lot of items (tinker,sf, marci,doom,etc), in order to not lose in 10 mins, you can pick tiny, ns, necro, pudge or ember so you can make space for your mid and supports later on in the game. But BKB is for sure the biggest difference xD.
I always love this concept and thinking back to when I first started playing ranked dota. I played offlane abaddon EVERY game and going pure right click. I would max my passive. Max my shield. ignore my Q until level 21 and put my skill points into bonus attributes. I'd build sange and yasha + basher + skadi every game and reduce the enemy carry's attack speed as much as I possibly could. I went something like 80% win rate straight to 5k MMR by playing abaddon like a carry and no one expected it. It was wonderful.
I'm sooooo glad someone finally talked about stats. Every time someone complains about balancing issues in League, I just tell them it's a problem of poor core stat design, and most can't comprehend what the frick I'm talking about. Ok, you actually covered literally every point of why Dota is much more grateful to balance. Lane compositions, active items, League's broken AP scaling, general game tempo, ttk, objectives. Awesome video.
Riot pretty much dismantled AD Carry role as "carry" and made every role being able to carry plainly through damage. AD Carries are now simply "marksmen", AD mages with more periodic and less burst damage. Basically you have only 3 roles in League: jungle support and laner.
The reason melee carries are the norm in dota is because they have better scaling skills and better attribute scaling. Melee carries in contrast to ranged carries gain better strength and agility meaning better hp, armor, atk speed and dmg. They also tend to get better scaling skills such as faceless having a time lock which basicly amplifies all his right click dmg. Drow ranger's ult amplifies her agility when in range but she is too afraid to be in the fight because she is squishier due to having less strength and agility attributes. There are also laning advantages for melees not only the dmg block chance but also quelling blade, you also have items like manta that gives better illusions for melee. I like your video, i feel like 90% of the info is correct i just wanted to be specific on the melee vs ranged topic in dota.
I'm not super experienced with LoL, but one difference I felt when it comes to laning as a carry is that the absence of denies makes last hitting a trivial thing in league, wave management becomes much more about dodging skillshots and shoving wave, which reduces some of the load from your mind. In a high level dota game, every single last hit in lane is a hard fought battle.
with how cheap each minion are in League, missing up to 3 per wave doesn't make a dent to team's financial performance in a short run and one can makeup the difference by forcing the opposing laner to retreat. In my experience with DotA, though, my fellow laner often scold me whenever I failed at last hitting because my laning style has always been closer to LoL's, even before I become acquainted with the game.
in league, a really mechanically skilled player with counter pick harass you so hard you can't even CS at all, that's what the Lux/Caitlyn reference in the video is, you're so perma pushed even at the tower, so in a sense that's how you deny, the last hit mechanic is more in line with dota's gold mechanic that allows for more comeback options (and helps due to the gold reduction when you die) I've experienced that many times where i was just really skilled gapped and counterpicked that i couldn't play anymore, wave management on the other hand is a bit different, there's a few videos on it mainly freezing lane (by only last hitting in the simplest sense) forcing the enemy hero to overextend, if that guy doesn't have a flash on CD, he's basically a sitting target for a gank for overextending
The minion-turret positioning in League is very depending on matchups, actually. For example, if you have a tank support, having minion close to your tower works in your favor, as they can easily set up ganks for the jungler. Conversely, with a tank support, you don't want to have your minions close to enemy towers, as the tanks will have no way to engage on them, except you want to stay and greed for some turret plates.
Magic carries aren't that meta in dota because at the end of the day physical damage is the only damage type that determimes on how slow or fast you destroy enemy buildings. I know that might sound weird as it is the same in LOL. but dota heroes can buy back. And often if even one enemy core bought back it will lead your team that is not careful to over commit then die or straight up just lose the game.
Great video, more of a general lol vs dota video than a carry specific video, which is cool. Only thing i dont think you touched on was how dota has highground sieges
Nyx can burst a spectre before she gets out of his stun. Mages do have options to scale. It's just that the ways to utilise them are inconvenient. Unless your combo naturaly involves doing an auto attack for the longbow mr shred and being up your enemy's armpit long enough to press a veil, eblade and a dagon.
It's because of BKB,spell casters in dota are a bit less relevant in mid game because of bkb and pipe and that is why it works in lol because they dont have such. imagine using zeus and everyone is just running you down in clash while bkb is active on them lol
great video! as someone who plays both games on and off, i find that being a pos 1 is so much more enjoyable than ADC, mostly because i love the melee carry archetype (my mains are Jugg, Sven, and CK), but also for basically every reason that the roles differ lol
@@Cricket0021so, in LoL is it common thing to die in 1 frame after 20 minutes on ADC? I'm just new to the game and I was playing with my buddies when that happened to me several times, thought my build is bad or I don't have some crucial items to survive
@@IonPerseus yeah. there's a champion in league named "rengar" that deletes adc's and squishies in one jump. literally 100 to zero in one jump. its not that your build is bad, there are just characters in LoL that are made to delete squishies in one or two button presses
in Dota, Carry is only the hardest role if you have never played a moba. If you have base knowledge on how the game works then the hardest is probably Mid or position 4 (they have similar roles)
I still dont understand why people are comparing 2 different games, I mean whats the point here? you like it you play it, as simple as that! I've always been a dota 2 players since the dota 1 days, and I've never played or tried league, not even once, nor do I have any interest in doing so, not then, not now, and I think not even in the future, why is that? Is it because dota is better? NO OFCOURSE NOT!! It's simply because I'm used to playing dota, and I felt that I still like it throughout the updates even until now, I'm not gonna go out saying oh Dota is so much better, it has so much more complexity than league and this and that bla bla bla, fuck that!! Because that's not true, every game is better for the person whos playing it, just play your own games, and stop comparing useless things guys, everything has it's own pros and cons, play what you think suits you the best!
The biggest difference between league and dota 2 comes down to their item designs: In dota, almost every item has an active that is on par in power to an extra spell. These item spells and effects give players more options. In league items have unique passives that only do something if some condition is met: Attacking a certain number of times; attacking a low hp enemy, ect. You dont have direct control, you try to get value from item passives by doing whatever the items 'want', which is usually attacking stuff. Items in league are mostly stat dumps that enhance what your character already does instead of giving you more options.
The interesting thing I recently noticed in dota is that since new frontiers patch(I dunno about the previous ones because I didn't play for a very long time and got back to the game right after new frontiers got released) It's also possible for a hero from different position to become a n unstoppable force who will truly carry the game. Obviously not every hero but there are some offlaners and midlaners who outscale even some of the hard carries. For midlane the most noticeable would be OD. He doesn't need to buy dmg or attack modifiers because his dmg output comes completely from his Q. So only stats he has to focus on are attack speed and mana. However 5/6 slotted OD outdamages juggernaut, Anti-mage, Medusa etc. The only carry he cannot outdamage with full build in any matchup is Drow ranger simply because of how absurd amounts of agility Drows ulti provides on top of ignoring armor. Another example would be Tinker who is often called a "pos 1 played on midlane" the idea for this hero is that you start with him on mid, however you need your safelaner to pick a hero who actually has some early game agency and spike on 1/2 items instea dof 3/4 items(like Ursa, juggernaut, Slark etc.) so Tinker can just flash farm entire jungle after laning phase. On offlane I noticed particularly 2 hardest scaling champs which are Slardar and Centaur Warruner. Both of those are icnredibly powerfull when 6 slotted and while they may not deal as much dmg as pos 1 carries do. Their tankiness allow them to become a true unkillable raidboss who just runs wherever he wants, stays on top of whoever he wants and kill them just 2/3 seconds slower then pos 1 would. Slardar(with correct build) can easily get to 5000 HP, about 130 HP regen/sec with about 70% armor while magic resist si provided by BKB while 6 slotted. So he is incredibly tanky, and still smashes everybody with 500 dmg per auto attack further amplified by his enourmus 20 armor reduction. Centaur on the other hand can get to 10 K HP during a teamfight when 6 slotted and with bought shard. And since all of his abilities, except hoof stomp scale with his strenght, he is gonna deal huge chunks of dmg to enemies and burst the down even in late game
patience, that is the difference between carry in dota and lol. I've noticed that carries in lol tend to get more impatient the minute it hit a 30mins mark, dota on the other hand 30 minutes is just the start of mid to late game depends on your hero. If you are picking a morph for example, it is very crucial for you to be patient because it'll take you to have 3 to 4 items to feel that you are playing a carry
Even some Dota players can get impatient! I've had my fair share of Voids trying to be the hero and landing a 3-man chrono only to have no followup lmao (tho admittedly, that Void is sometimes me)
I think the part when "Mage in dota doesn't scales with items" is a bit misleading. Sure, the damage is fixed to certain amount for most heroes, but items scaling the mages by giving them 'options' other than damages. For examples, silencer's 3rd skill started by being single target, but with item Aghanim Scepters, it makes the skill into aoe+ground target. Another "Mage core" items like bloodstone, octarine core, or RO also scale the mages pretty well (spell lifesteal, cd reduction, and spell amp), but not in 'raw damage' departement. Also also in dota, other pos other than carry can snowball and manfight the other team alone too, y'know? Its just that recovering in dota is quite easy since the map is big and there's creep everywhere Still, your video were informative and fun to hear into. This is but a small addition fron me :)
"dota mages don't scale" that's really not the case anymore. there are now SO MANY decent spell dmg dealers that are among the strongest late game heroes in dota. i would even go as far and say it got switched. if you look at dotabuff heroes with longest match duration you find SK, AA, ES, Techies etc. TB, Naga etc. are now early game heroes that want to flash farm and finish fast, while a 6 slotted Enigma can solo kill anyone.
Correct. Even lion if being let to scale. He can finger 5 man to half HP, probably also one shot 2 of their supports. Skywrath, OD, even Zeus is super strong with late game items.
You know what, after playing a 65 minute game against SK and his cancerous Aghs the other day? I can’t say you’re wrong! Their damage doesn’t scale the same way PA’s or Void’s does, but they are nasty once enemy BKBs are down to 6 seconds. They’re still not gonna be played as 1 tho simply because they don’t right click towers as easily. But then, like anything in Dota, you can draft around them and get tower damage elsewhere.
It's an interesting dynamic. Carries usually have some way of speeding up their farm, which allows them to get their 6 slots faster. But if everyone has 6 slots, carries aren't that much stronger. Techies is just cancer most of the time though. Citing Baumi, "1 vs 9, techies vs fun".
You didn't mention how abilities scale which is a HUGE reason why melee carries historically have had such a bad time in LoL. But honestly, in Lol you can have roles other than ADC also carry late game, which doesn't really happen in DOTA without large skill difference.
I would say most of it is the turn speed. Items and tankiness have an impact. But the ability to be to do damage while experiencing near 0 movement loss is so strong as a mechanic that in a different game called Starcraft, it's essentially the sole reason why Terran is viable.
Great video I personally have hopped between playing league and DOTA casually for many years, and I definitely agree with a lot of what you said! Thanks for the great video and keep up the good work
The main difference is, in League my 6 items Zeri can go from 100 - 0 in .05 seconds if i mistep A PIXEL. No matter how fed i am. In Dota my 6 items muerta has counter play options to deal with the bullshit the enemy is trying to throw at me.
When it comes to item scaling, dota also incorporates alot of defense in their carry build, butterfly with evasion, falcon with hp, bkb etc, Making carries way tankier than league adc where they buy an item with DAMAGE, crit (Rng damage), attack speed (faster damage) and a passive that deals MORE DAMAGE.
I really like how dota manages to give every hero tank and dmg items in 6 slots. Meanwhile league champs are just dmg item heroes. No defense for them. Weaklings.
@@Lastofhiskind-00 That's what I hate. They don't have a defined role in combat. They are both tanker and damage dealer when fed, making it a much more one side battle for the winning side, while also making other role feel worthless since it's would reach a point where the match is decided by 2 carry duking out with each other.
@@cynt4416 every hero can be tanky and dmg dealers at the same time making the game intense. I don't understand why league cucks cry so much about how differently dota works. Grow up and touch grass.
There are lots of range carries in DOTA…. Ever since they removed the mini blink on abyssal blade, range carries usually had the best win rates in DOTA ie lina / Medusa meta.
awesome video ! another thing I noticed is that DotA has often point-click homing CCs while almost everything in League is a skillshot so it's a bit more wary for DotA carries btw, wouldn't you consider Obsidian, Necro, and Tinker as Hard Carries? at least in DotA 1 they were due to their extreme mana (though in the case of Necro it's more on like being tanky, extreme mana, and AoE %health shredding); there's also Kardel
I dont think OD and Tinker are the archetypical hard carry. They both really want levels fast, and so they go mid. OD also doesn't really farm very fast. Tinker can also really die very fast if he gets jumped on from fog. Necro can be played as a pos 1 though, especially with the more recent aghs change where he just becomes a raidboss.
14:34 Monkey king appears in games where producers want to sell their game in China. It's similar to how they often make viking characters if they want to sell it in EU or NA.
Hey, I remember the time when Lord Miracle was at his peak. When he played Invoker (the spellcaster), he was legit pos1 while his carry (Matum or Notail I'm not sure) was kind of pos2 for the team.
I agree that magic dmg in dota doesn't scale with items except spell amplify buff, but in dota most of the spells are scaled significantly with aghanim' scepter, shards and talents. Currently some items make dota heroes that usually build physical dmg become a magic dmg dealer, which the dmg also scaled with attack stat (khanda and revenant brooch + new rapier since it gives spell amp), those items changed the dota meta entirely for a while until the dev realized that the combo between those item are just too broken, and then they nerfed revenant brooch cannot crit and rapier became a toogle item to choose between attack or spell amp. And now we even got the facet system that make it once again broken, some heroes even has incredibly strong spell at lv 1.
Dota have a lot of item that improve spell damage, wdym its only Kaya there Khanda, Veil, Aghanim (shrad and blessing), Orchid, Eblade that used as regular magic dmg amp (maybe not straightforward, but it does amp magic dmg) CD reduction via Octarine or reset with refresher Also, I think you mean "Magic Dmg carries" as a "Nuker" in Dota, magic Dmg is not to viable because Magic Damage doesnt do damage to Tower/Buildings very well So, breaking high ground is problem and sieging enemy high ground is hard for INT Carries, except for heroes like Lesrac LoL doesnt realy do Comeback, but in DoTa Comeback moment happen everytime -enemy siege HighGround. and with things like Buyback having no Physical carries made very risky draft that might lose you the game - because even if you wipe enemy team, if your team cant do structural damage fast enough, it would give ample time for enemy to counterattack or ramp defense up in the tower. which make winning a fight become less decisive strategicaly
Great video, thanks for the effort and comparison! I want to give some feedback for 12:25. Magic damage is king in lategame dota. When bkb's are running low lategame magic damage becomes very important. For most heroes magic resistance is not as high as armor is. This is why Reventant's Brooch was created for physical damage heroes to use this fact lategame (look at Mars double rapier rev brooch build). Pos 2's like Storm and Leshrac and scale extremely well into lategame and there are a plethora of items that boosts their archetype to punch at the level of traditional right click carries. In conclusion, saying Dota's design philosophy for magic damage is that it falls of late game is a very outdated concept and items released in recent patches allude to this fact.
You know this is a very well thought out comment and I can't disagree. My take on this is that lategame, carries are still at the top, but it's just we've started seeing the emergence of the ultra late game phase as well in the past few years. 55+ minute thrillers, your team's starting to stack neutrals for Tier 5s, when your 5 CMs are starting to get BKB-Aghs and solo win teamfights. I would even say that in this iteration of the game, the power of magic damage is like some sort of reverse bell curve, where it goes down towards the midgame when people start to buy Glimmers, Pipe, BKB, and Shroud, but then it goes back up once the Glimmers get sold and the Aghs get bought. SK Aghs is the main offender. Sieging high ground in the lategame against a Sniper or Drow + SK with Aghs Bloodstone is probably one of the hardest things to do in Dota. I mean you might as well give em back Shrines with how hard it is to go HG and the insane rubberband comeback gold doesn't help. Also, since you mention it Revenant's Brooch is a horribly designed item. You spend a whole game itemizing against a physical damage carry, and then they buy Brooch and laugh at the 10k+ gold you've spent on armor items? I guess you could say the same with Nullifier, but even then it's a gimmicky item to use. Hopefully IceFrog can go back to the drawing board with this one. Thanks so much for the feedback, and the insightful comment!
Most carry position in Dota2 : Early hard time, carry the team at last Most carry position in LoL : Always foreshadowed by their support of another teammate lol
ADC right now doesnt have an identity. Their role is supposed to be the constant damage dealer that counters tank. ADC counters tank since they can wither them down Tank/bruiser counters mage/assassin because tanks can survive their burst and smack them or heal up before their cooldown comes back up. Mage/assassin counters ADC with their instant burst of damage and blow them up. But why every role for some reason one shots the adc and dish out the same damage as they do, even the tanks League right now has a damage issue. Where even the tanks gets deleted in 2 secs or tanks deleting anyone. Riot will be buffing crit items maybe they can now go build 2 defensive items without hurting their damage output
Dota has a ton of items to scale with magic damage, and Magic damage heroes are more likely to be the ones who've dealth the most damage to the enemy by the end of a match. Zeus, Lina, Timber, Veno, QoP, Necrophos, Leshrak or even supports like Jakiro or Techies are often the ones who has the highest "damage dealt" on the end match stat screen. Kaya gives raw magic amp, but Veil gives spell damage taken debuff, Eblade gives you temporary -40% resistance, Aghs often opens new avenues to deal damage (Qop, Necrophos), Parasma puts another -25% magic resistance, Octarine reduces cooldowns to spam spells more often and Refresher allows to double up your combo in a lategame fight to deal tremendous damage. With all of that plus mandatory 1-2 defensive slots every hero needs regardless of position (for casters it's usually Windwaker and Linkens/BkB) you easily fill up your full inventory. Not to mention that Rapier now has Spell Amp mode. Carry is always a righclick core because you need to quickly take objectives while the enemy team is dead - that is the most reliable win condition. In those drafts where you have structure damage from pos 2 (Tiny, Lesh) or pos3 (zoo heroes) you sometimes see Necrophos or like Doom emerge as Pos 1 (but that's rare). Also that is the same reason why heroes like Riki never stick as a pos1 outside of low(ish) end pubs, because they take forever to kill the base.
I played Main Support in both Games too,... I was playing DotA 1 in Warcraft 3 in my Highschool days then switched to League when I was studying for College I was Master in League and I stopped playing right after I reached it because I was enjoying playing DotA 2 during the release,... I started calibrating in DotA and got Archon and years goes by I'm still Archon LMAO It's only then when DotA introduced Neutral Items where I've got to reach Immortal So let's talk about my Opinion in DotA and League: In DotA you get to actually do your Role as a Support than in League In DotA you have to be aggresive in Lane so your Carry will have a good time, you can also Pull Camp, Stack Camps, Deny Creeps(Minions), hunt Wards, etc. You can actually do sort of things to be a real Support in DotA than in League were you only trade shots and skills
Melee in dota works because things in LoL die too quick. Imagining somebody build explicit damage item or no damage had to go so close to tenant team just to get deleted in less than a fragment of a second.
in dota, you can either be a right click carry/pure damage or a magic type carry and there's hero's who can do both like Lina, Zeus, Ember and Void Spirit
Dota is so diverse, man, and I love how League is getting diverse now too, I get to see several heroes played in 3-4 different roles during pro-matches in League, like "where does that come from? nevermind, I love it". For Dota diversity was there always, as one Dutch world champion in dota once said: "Everything can work!", yes it is, in dota everything can work, given time to practice the heroes.
Leauge use to have a late game , but riot wanted shorter match timers on adverage so they added damege everywhere excpt carry aince rhey aleeady did damage now matchs are won and lost on 20 mins late game is getting to 3 items,
My friend, ranged carries are much more. widespread than you think. Here is list of the ranged-carry heroes that could be witnessed in a pro scene: Lina (physical) , Zeus (physical), Muerta, Troll, Shadowfiend, Templar Assassin, Luna, Razor, Arc Warden, Leshrac, Morphling, Weaver, Medusa. And this is not even a full list.
Oh for sure! I got the most popular heroes played primarily as Pos 1 over Dota 2's lifespan on Dotabuff, and that's where I got the info. I'm just hesitant to put a few of those as ranged "carries" since Arc Warden is played mid, Razor is played offlane, etc. Also idk whether to classify Troll as a ranged carry since he's in melee form like 80% of the time
@@Dokurider melee carries exist in Lol, they're called fighters, they're generally in the Top Lane solo (sometimes played in mid and at one point in lieue of the ranged carry), in general top lane is mostly for Tanks/Fighters/Bruisers and certain niche ranged scaling carries like Kayle, there's also niche ranged carries to counter but they're generally have to have a decent team composition and teamwork to pull off
Have you ever thought of comparing LoL and DOTA’s lore, like a mix of this and the Fallout video…? Like looking at specific characters or the setting as a whole, and discussing how this affects character designs, views on characters, etc…?
For me, it's how they design their hero/champs in the game. In LoL, champs abilites and kits are tailored for their specific role, that's why some champs are fitted at most 2 roles, 3 if ur build are crazy enough. Meanwhile in dota, hero kits are usually more flexible. Icefrog basically gives u hero with certain kits and said "now do whatever u want, build as crazy as u can". We've seen dazzle in every position, razor and tb as pos 5 in pro scene, and god knows what topson will cook in pubs
The main difference I've often felt is that lategame lol carries always become glass cannons, while lategame dota carries always become raidbosses
LoL carries late game: RPG damage dealers, who need tanks and healers combo backing them up.
Dota carries late game: actually quite diverse: some can tank the whole enemy team while dishing out remarkable damage (like Spectre and Medusa), some are slippery hit-and-run powerhouses (like Slark and Anti-mage) but some are also RPG damage dealers, who need tanks and healers combo backing them up (like Drow Ranger and Sniper).
EDIT: I actually had written this comment before I watched the clip. The video covers it incredibly well. I shouldn't have posted such a mood comment.
In Dota, the carries are the ones one-shotting people whereas in LoL, they're the ones getting one-shot
@@Acex2ron I feel like one of those Dota was supposed to be a League.
@@Acex2ronso, which one is dota and which one is dota?
@@Zancibar nope lol
As someone who has played both games for a long time, I find the differences between the two games really fascinating. They sometimes look similar if you haven't played both, but it's almost like they're made for completely opposite types of people. Not just in their gameplay, but in their fundamental design philosophy. It's no wonder most Dota players can't stand League, and most League players never get interested in Dota.
Couldn't have put it better myself! League isn't Dota, and Dota isn't League, so they'll never be each other and arguing over which is better is pointless. But it's still fun to discuss the differences between the two biggest names in the genre.
Yes exactly
Remember when early 2010s everyone compared one to each other but after years they are fundamentally different
dota is more of an old man's game where as LoL is more of the arcade-y type
@@Cricket0021 no one could think of a worse analogy than what you just typed.
@@bastidota well there arcade skin on league and mythical skin on dota
5:25 100% slow in dota doesn't actually make a hero completely unable to move, but instead sets their ms to 100, which the minimum ms for heroes and is one third of the average base ms.
100 ms is almost as slow as not moving though. You move like a geriatric snail crawling on glue.
@ChadKakashi could still blink compared to root where you can't. I always found it weird that at 100% slow, you can still walk.
@@kayne7380 Too OP, nerf CM base move speed pls
You can get 0 ms by walking into Disruptor's Kinetic Field or Mars' Arena of Blood. The display won't show 0 ms, but you know that's how it works because if you're hit by those debuffs and try to launch an Ember Remnant, the thing will literally not move a pixel.
@@camilog777 CM's new balance: CM's movement speed can be negative.
The main difference is that in the lategame a carry in dota is a strong and, sometimes, tanky, right-clicker, which shows the product of all the farming needed to achieve that point.
In league of legends, you are a bag of gold that gets oneshot without any kind of counterplay if there is a character called "Rengar" in the game
That's why League has GA--you can get one-shot twice in the same fight!
the best counter to this is proper team play, which we all know can be an absolute joke without any voice comms lol
League also has raid boss hard carry as well. Lilia, Shyvana, Evelyn, Master Yi, etc. are your DOTA hardcarries.
Riot just nerfed them out of existence.
And the Windshitter, don't forget them
@@Acex2ron
They need to nerf assasin reduce tank scaling and remove the bounty system.
League is getting more and more boring with how regid the meta is.
I feel like only top and jungle mattered in league unless riot decide to say no and balance them to oblivion. But refuse to nerf op champs.
@@bardfall9555 i had a game where my kai'sa was 0-5 AND she still had a bounty.
I love how in Dota the definition of a carry is p much just "given enough gold you become unstoppable" and that can mean anything from a sniper shooting up highground to an insta killing es with daedalus
What's also really fun is that dota has moved more and more towards a design that lets heroes play multiple types of roles.
Yes there are some heroes that are meant for specific things but the role flexibility is mcuh greater than it first seems.
Take terrorblade for example. He's long been seen as a definitive hard carry, and for good reason.
However I've seen people take a look at him and go "hmm, I can use my illusions to scout, I got a strong attack buff so I can deal damage even without items, I can make illusions of enemies which turns their power against them and this spell is completely item independant, and I can save my carry with my ult. Yes I'll play hard support terrorblade that sounds good".
Ogre magi is another one. He might not be able to play as pos 1 but he can absolutely build himself into a brawler that bashes people's faces in, or a support mage that focuses on spellcasting, or some sort of hybrid.
Omniknight can either be a support who saves his carry, or a fighter who protects his friends in the process.
Dark Willow can either be a highly disruptive support or a straight up ranged assassin.
Hell even heroes like crystal maiden and dazzle, the quintessential definition of a support hero, can play as a mid laner and become a monstrously strong right clicker with the right build.
There's so much flexibility in what you can do in dota.
@@carljohan9265unfortunately, that means the knowledge check on individual heroes is that much higher. There's so many unexplained and overemphasized mechanics in Dota that starting is a huge hurdle.
But it does seem like as long as you play your own game, you can just ignore heroes and just focus on the items, which simplifies the lategame by a LOT.
@@Elephanthobo No, you must certainly can't ignore what your team is doing because that's how you end up being the one who farms creeps half a screen away from your team dieing and then get (rightfully) blamed for that loss.
Map awareness is absolutely critical and being where you need to be is more important than getting that 300 gold.
@@carljohan9265 League used to be the king of flexibility or any build, but with their kind of game philosophy they just nerf any build they don't like like AP Yi, on-hit neeko, semi-tank Vayne, old ADC Thresh and the ancient crit Alistar. There's also crit Aatrox but only works in URF.
League is the only moba who's carry's time gets worse and worse as the game gets longer if both sides are equal(neither is feeding, but with same items, League ADC always gets 1 shot first), unless the ADC gets ultra hyper mega fed and ends early so the assassins cant buy items, its the only case ADC is strong.
Dota's design is basically gold funneling, puting all the resources on 1 or 2 player, where league tries to spread out resources. LoL also had gold funnel meta before but it was boring to play and unfair.
In League you get to scale all your abilities through your items, where as in dota, your skills will scale far more with just raw experience. For carries, their late game potential usually comes down to how these abilities synergize with key items, where as supports and mid-game based mages scale mostly with getting levels to scale up their damage, and use items for utility. There aren't a lot of crit items in dota, but assassins attain it mostly through skills that give critical strike. Phantom lancer is hard to kill because his ultimate makes illusions, and illusions get to benefit from health scaling of strength, and the damage from agility.
Well said, it's spot on
EE risky farm joke goes hard lmfao
Fifty-FiftEE NEVER DIES
@@Acex2ron PLEASE TP TOP
@@sbastianbrilyanto4722 DROP YOUR STICK, DROP YOUR STICK
I am so good and bad at this game at the same time !
From my personal experience (as a newbie in league and old-time player in dota) it's much more fun to play carry in dota than to play adc in league. I like dota's macro and item build choises much more. Items in dota can offer you cc, movement, survivability in form of extra health, armor, lifesteal, dispels. And in league it's just damage, attack speed, crits. While some items have additional passive components, they don't feel that interesting.
What makes playing adc a literal torture for me is the fact that all adcs are just glass cannons which get one shot by everyone else. You need to have incredibly good positioning and your team has to protect you from enemy assasins/bruisers diving and deleting you in a fraction of second. But there is no reason for them to protect you because in league everyone can carry and your damage dealing capabilities don't matter that much, since anyone else can dish out pretty good damage while also having better mobility / survivability / cc. As an adc you build only damage to keep up with everyone else, while some tank builds nothing but hp and armor but has abilities that scale with his health, allowing him to deal good damage while also being harder to kill. Playing assassin is a high-risk/high-reward playstyle. While playing adc is basically very high-risk/low-reward.
I can deal much more damage when playing lux support, hitting enemies from an actually safe distance, which is harder to cover with a built-in dash that every new champ has. Or I can go toplane with some easy to grasp frontlane champ, just turn off my brain and run into enemies. Or i can play assassin and just insta-gib most characters without breaking a sweat. I'm not really good on akali but damn sometimes I roll my face on keyboard and miss half of my abilities and still manage to easily kill some poor squishy without almost any counterplay availible to them. And I can kinda do all this stuff while playing carry in dota, since there are so many different carries with different playstyles. But even when I play drow, who is similar to adc's in league (long-range glass cannon), it's still much more fun. I actually have items which help me survive like pike, bkb or manta. And my team actually plays around me because I'm their main source of damage, so I can usually expect that my support will help me if I get jumped and my frontlaner will lock down enemy team so I can shoot them.
It also doesn't help that carries are supposed to scale well into late game, but due to snowballing, players being easily tilted and surrender option available at 15min mark, most games just end before adc can even hit a major powerspike and become an actual character that can do stuff.
Haha, the FF15 mentality is one of my most hated attitudes in League. Like, I feel like half my games in League don't even make it past 3 completed items because one of the teams will quit. Why even plan a build order at that point when you only need 2-3 core items per game.
@@SadFace201 The saddest thing is that mentality isn't necessary completely wrong. As far as I know, people on higher ranks FF15 much more often because players are better at using their leads. So when one team snowballs, they won't give their enemies a chance to comeback. People know that and just end the game at 15 min mark because sometimes there is literally no reason to continue playing because of how snowbally the game is. Also playing when behind in league is extremely frustrating as there isn't much you can do, especially when playing with random people. It's much harder to comeback in league than in dota imo. The game is just designed this way, since rito want short mathes that end in less than 30 minutes, and too many possibilities for comeback might prolong the game too much. And because of that I think a lot of people don't put much effort in playing. The commitment is low, so to speak. Why try hard when others in your team might lose their lanes so hard you'll have to FF15? And if you fail because you haven't tried hard enough, it's not a big deal, since you can just FF15 and try again! Absolutely ridiculous game design.
That said, on lower elo it's still very much possible to win even when you're behind, because people there aren't that good at the game and prone to making stupid mistakes which can cost them the entire game.
@@savekla Oh yes, I'm aware that League is far more snowbally than dota. The lack of mechanics that can be leveraged in League means that there's very little you can do to comeback barring the enemy team from royally fucking up, which happens rarely in higher ELOs. That's why they used to have that statistic many many years ago that in pro-play the team ahead at 10 min has a 90% chance to win the game. I'd assume that still holds true today since Riot hasn't really added anything that would significantly encourage comebacks.
Much more fun for you, less fun for the 9 other player playing with you when you get fed.
Adc in Lol still need team to help him function even if they are fed. Support player will still feel like they make a difference late game.
But top lane in lol have the same problem as carry in Dota. When they are fed, they are both tanky and deal high damage, making the match much more oneside and turn to a boring stat check.
@@cynt4416 I'd rather have someone named "Carry" be stronger than average and able to actually carry the game, instead of dying to a sneeze in their general direction. I mean, if you are weak early on and spend at least 20 minutes farming for items to play the game, than it better be worth it in the end. Carries in dota start off weak and through levels and items become late game menace. Carries in league feel like they need levels and items to just be on the same level as others, if not worse, since they don't have built-in survivability, mobility or utility that other roles have, while everyone else has those thing and still can deal damage pretty good damage.
Still, carries in dota rarely get hyperfed so much they can really 1v9 without any help from their team, especially at higher skill levels. Even if they do get a good start, carry without team will have hard time dealing any damage if they are playing against at least somewhat competent players, as they'll just get kited/cc'd, all while there is no one to hold enemies in place with cc, or save them with utility spells/items. No matter if you have ton of damage and bkb, enemy team can still cc you with abilities that go through bkb and focus you with all they have, which is almost always a guranteed death.
I honestly rarely feel like I'm having less fun because my carry is popping of. If I stop doing my thing, they will usually get overwhelmed, since I'm not helping them either directly or by applying pressure somewhere on the map. And if the enemy carry is fed, than of course I'm going to have less fun, since I'm currently losing, duh. And there is plenty counterplay and ways to comeback when you're behind. Unless the score is like 0-20.
In late game, supports, just like any other role, still can have huge impact on the game. At the very least, they can provide their team with vision and useful utility items for save/buffs. Most support characters have incredibly powerful spells, which can be gamechanging. Dazzle's W is Tryndamere's ult for a teammate. Vengeful Spirit's ult allows her to swap positions with a champion, which can be used to save teammates or ruin enemy's positioning. Crystal Maiden's ult can deal tons of magic damage in a team fight. Ogre's buffs can greatly improve his team's survivability and dps. Good supports are often the ones focused first in teamfights if possible, because they can easily turn your good engage into a lost teamfight by saving their cores or cc'ing your team. Not to mention that early game falls almost enterily on support's shoulders.
And again regarding whole thing about fed players being unstoppable. In league toplaners and junglers become 1v9 deathmachines. But champs that usually play those roles are pretty strong even in early game. So they get to play from the start and get to play even more if things go their way. While carries in dota are weak at the start, but become stronger than anyone else late in the game. Makes more sense to me that someone who's weakest early becomes strongest in the end, Instead of someone who is already pretty strong early becoming even stronger as time goes by.
A support main here. I haven't really played dota 2 in quite a while, but I feel like it's a lot more necessary to support for your hard carry whereas in LoL, I think very little of abandoning an underperforming ADC in favor of helping a higher performing player. I think it's because of the abundance of hyper carry champs who can 1v9 with cataclysmic late game damage in other positions like Gwen, Bel'Veth, and Master Yi. A snowballing Yone is worth far more of my attention as a win condition than a 0/3 Jinx. Hell, there are even support champs like Senna and Pyke who can hard carry if I REALLY don't trust my team.
This is a very good point that I'm bookmarking for the Support video! Because of the nature of League, it's a lot better for the team if the support abandons the underfarmed (or just plain bad) ADC and goes to gank mid or top, or joins the Jungler in applying roam pressure.
But it's also the case for Dota, where if your lane is lost beyond salvaging, it's better to sack it and the carry goes to farm the jungle whereas their 5 support goes to support other lanes. This usually means that the enemy has to do the same, sending the 3 and 4 in response, thus opening up the lane for your carry to farm!
@@Acex2ron lemme enter another comment XD
Recently(since they added Void grubs) roaming supports had more success over non roaming ones, cuz of the map pressure and a fact that any role in League can be a “carry” role. And I mean any, cuz even on something like bard or soraka or Nami one good combo or rightfully placed ward can turn a fight around, cuz how different dote and league is
@@psychokuca302 nah man, dota is literally the same, perhaps you haven't played a lot of dota sups
@@Acex2ron but carry in dota still can scale hard because jungle camp in dota in safelane is same size as whole camp in league. there also portal to top now. make carry/support to gank offlane or otherwise. while league biggest thing you can farm is siege minion cause jungle camp worth little for adc making it harder to scale like other winning role
@@psychokuca302 in dota when you play turbo 3 minute is minimum time you gonna get gank while minimum 5-10 minute you go out of lane. in all pick is 5 minute for early gank and 15-20 minute to leaving lane. as post 5 you shouldn't leave your carry alone if you carry jungle you protect the lane and warding jungle. but as post 4 you the one who most likely to roam to give either post 3 get more xp or helping other lane.
>"there are no magic damage carries in Dota"
>Pos 1 Pudge slowly creeps in, starts to rot and heal back and chew your ass off with his ulti Dismember"
he forgot about muerta
@@johnlloydvillanosa3582 Muerta is magic damage, yes, but she is closer to Drow or Medusa or Sniper in her type of gameplay when Pudge is something completely different (I personally play Pudge as Pos 3 and into damage build, it's so fun to see people MELT)
Ah shit, not again. Someone build Mage Slayer + Shiva's pls
@@Acex2ron Fortunately, mage slayer isn’t that popular right now although Sviva both hurts and helps Pudge (Aghs+Bloodstone is a dopamine factory)
@@Chasodey Necrophos used to be like that too
Something you missed about the prevalence of melee carries in Dota is actually attack animations. Aside from most melee carries having faster attack animations than ranged cores, they also don't have to deal with attack travel time. This means that it's generally easier to last hit and assuming stats and items were the same, a faster animation means more damage. It's been evened out a lot but Terrorblade was a huge addition because he had the same attack point as Antimage. And back in the day, Antimages attack animation was considered so good that some players would buy blink dagger and only level stats.
Also faster attack animations and no attack travel time means you can literally deny creeps as their attacks are in the air.
I think it also has something to do with the fact that melee heroes generally have a lower BAT, so they always get effectively more benefits from items, i swear maelstrom hits way more times when i play void than when i play Sniper simply cause BAT makes it so that void always hits faster on the early game when you only have 1 item
Just a small note; Muerta was not the first Magic Damage carry; Outworld Devourer, Leshrac, Tinker, Dazzle, and Sniper were at one point all magic damage carrys. Tinker and Dazzle got nerfed into support roles (Dazzle was originally there, but Tinker was a carry since the WC3 days). Sniper's headshot and shrapnel got reworked to not work on buildings and (for headshot) be bonus attack damage rather than a magic dmg tick. Lesh and OD are still quite strong but not popular because they require a decent amount of skill.
Also DotA doesn't have many items that improve spell damage directly (Parasma, Veil, Shivas, & Kaya's various upgrades), but they do still have a lot of items that improve spell damage (cooldown reduction, range increase, spell lifesteal, int based magic damage amplification, repositioning tools, etc.)
Huh ???? OD requires skill ???? Lmaooo
@@xfatoushe-6908 a little yeah; otherwise you end up saving enemies with w
@@3044Smike that’s not about skill and more about having a brain. Literally just spam astral in mid and you win the lane. OD is one of the easiest heroes to play
@@xfatoushe-6908 "using a brain" is a skill a vast majority of dota players don't have my guy. Also I was talking about teamfights not laning. My point stands, it requires a small amount of skill; i aint saying hes invoker or meepo or smth, but hes not sven or antimage. He's in the lower middle range.
@@xfatoushe-6908 OD definitely requires skills, if you think deal great damage is all a hero needs then you would be wrong. OD is squishy, cannot reliably escape, extremly susceptible to BKB and silence. He is easy to deal with the guy playing OD is an idiot. That is why you do not see a lot of OD players in pubs.
You may think the pos 1 carries in dota, wait till you see the late game pos 5 snap who left to jungle at min 40 and reenters the game with Daedalus+25 talent and 1 shots your 3 cores
Techies lvl 25 talent gives them 252 damage on their right clicks, turning a mage into a monster
@@YZaiCreates 9 slotted techies with infinite cast range is a thing now alongside with techies that has 9000 attack range and attack speed and is murdering your team from across the screen.
@@triopsate3 it's so good
Spell based carrys do exist in dota2( pudge, Lesh). However unlike league, dota isnt about skillshots and bursts, not always. So when it comes to spell based carrys, they are tanky mfs who you wont be able to deal with. Pudge as a pos1 doesnt out damages you, he out healths you.
Pudge is a relatively new addition to the carry role, but that is true! They're DPSes for sure, but they just ramp up damage over the fight. Guess that's another archetype to add to Dota's carry roster
@@Acex2ron relatively new is.. well I guess relative. Pudge carry has been a thing since they reworked agh and if I'm not mistaken, it was Matu who made it popular in ti11. But again, about spell based carries, they have existed for a long time but most of them are very risky picks. You have heroes like pudge and lesh who wanna out-live you and you have heroes like OD, Silencer, Winter Wyvern who wanna right click you down asap.
@@Acex2ron Not really relatively new. It was very meta 2 years ago after a series of buffs, got reworked into his current Aghanim's and his 3rd skill becoming an active and we got to see it in action when TI11 rolled around and boy was he contested a lot before playoffs. He didn't do so hot later coz Leshrac was a better alternative and both didn't do well either when wraith pact and damage reduction strats crushed them.
@@imfinishedgrinding638 Im 99% sure he meant relatively new in the lifespan of the game. If you picked carry pudge 5 years ago you were going to low prio, no questions asked.
@@priqe Yeah, as an old school player, anything past Pango and Willow registers as “new” to me. Gimme a pension already lmao
And then there's Morhpling a whatever carry that thing is
He's a marksman, but also a statstick, but also a tank, but also a caster, but also....your Earthshaker?
@@Acex2ron he's you, he's me, he's everyone
@@Lastofhiskind-00it could be you, it could be me, it could even be a- *sniper assassinate*
Morphling is what Viego wished to be
Ah, yes. Lore-accurate Morphling.
If you ignore Revenant's Broach, I think the only real magic damage pos 1 left in Dota is Arc Warden. Most other pos 1 heroes that deal magic damage are better described as mixed damage heroes (Lina, Faceless Void, Juggernaut, Meepo and so on).
That said, Revenant's Broach now means that a lot of physical damage carries can shift entirely to magic damage. Means that PA can five shot your 9k HP Centaur, and kill your 2 supports from off screen with the triple dagger.
Also, the reason Muerta is played as a supprt is not because she is not good as a core. In Dota, a hero becomes a support if they can do well without items. They become a pos 4 support if they are also good with items. This means that gold is being used more effectively - it goes to the heroes that _really_ need it. It's also why Marci and Dawn are played at pos 4 - they don't need gold to be effective, but they are really good at using gold to get even more effective at using their kit.
They change arcwarden attack magic damage to physical damage cause its to strong it can easily kill a non magic resistance build offlaner when arcwarden first build manta.
11:59 mfer forgot about shotgun morphling back when EBlade was an agi item.
Also, there's about enough mid or offlaners that can snowball on their own enough to carry, see your usual ember spirits, tinkers, bristlebacks, legion commanders and so forth, who get a 2-0 or 3-0 advantage in their lanes and then win the game for you.
Some points i'd like to add about magic/spell based carry in dota
-divine rapier in dota gives 25% spell amp as of patch 7.35 and as of 7.35d it can be toggled between 25% spell amp or 250 attack damage.
-revenant's brooch is an item that turns all your right clicks into magic damage but has a big mana cost per hit.
-bristleback and pudge carry exist (existed? not in meta right now). some carries also has good magic damage (gyro, luna, arc warden, slark) but since the scaling is worse, they still build for right clicks.
but yeah i do agree that in terms of pure power, magic damage scaling is higher in league than dota.
Pudge carry still exists
Bristle carry has high pickrate on dota2protracker
You'll be surprised to know that bristle back does only physical damage hahahahha
@@alexudumitreu1583 it is still "spell" based and even if the argument is "he still right clicks", he still wants to spam the spell to gain damage stacks from his ult. also, his quill stack damage is still boosted by kaya and its variants, rapier spell amp, and neutral items that boost spell damage.
Very lovely video. Great comparisons and as a Dota player, I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe except that Dota has been trying to make the intelligence carry role more of a thing in the recent years by introducing many magic and intelligence-based items. However, they also naturally introduced the counters. I think the intention of releasing Muerta was a breaking point since they introduced Revenant's Brooch (what Meurta carries on her back) before she was released, transforming physical damage into magical. I think it still needs some tweaks, but the very fact that Bristleback is often picked as a carry is indicative that you can sometimes pick a spell-caster carry.
Thanks for this comment! And I agree on the Revenant's Brooch. I think it's a good item in theory as a counter to armor-stackers like Axe and Timber, but still needs some tweaking. The removal of Khanda Rapier meta was a step in the right direction!
@@Acex2ron I'd say actual armor-stackers in dota are agility carries, as they get a lot of base armor, which also helps them to feel less squishy despite having less raw HP. And in general magic resist is usually lower than physical resist unless you specifically build an item to change that. Brooch has lost a lot of popularity after it stopped working with crits though.
@@Acex2ron khanda rapier was so nuts. i have lost counts of the times a PA or sniper with khanda rapier ruined a great game. basically the moment you saw those guys in the draft, you had to go blademail on enitre team. not a fun 6 weeks in dota
One scaling mage from dota that bears mentioning is Leshrac. Lesh has even seen brief periods of meta relevancy as a pos 1 on multi-core lineups, but he's been meta in every position at least once so perhaps that's not so surprising. There was also the period where all the carries went midlane and the safelane would often be casters/playmakers, but that was just the pos 1 being mid, rather than a caster being pos 1.
I agree with the point about everyone in league being a carry while dota has the pos 1 win condition you funnel into, but I think it's worth mentioning, just as a point of interest/discussion, that power creep has been taking dota more down the league route. There is enough farm on the map to have 2-3 highly farmed cores now, and supports have seen a lot of love to the point where even your pos 5 can sometimes get a few big items and the pos 4 often turns into a 4th core. Plus with talents, aghs shards, and what not, adding extra power to casters, a pos 1 with bkb on cd could potentially just die 1v1 to even something like a lich or crystal maiden. That being said, I definitely prefer it this way to how dota used to be. I'm do not like league's extreme damage creep, and idk if I'd say dota has it right either, but at the very least I'll take CM solo killing the 4 items PA over the days when she'd be lvl 8 with brown boots and wand at the 30 minute mark.
I also think there is a lot more that could be talked about with item differences. Dota doesn't actually have that many generic dps items like league. Most damage items come with some kind of survivability stat while league has a ton of items that are just damage. And maybe it's just me, but I feel like, as an adc, building tank just doesn't really do anything. I know tank kog'maw has seen some success, but there is so much damage that building just a bit of tank doesn't seem to make a difference, and if you go too far into tank you don't do enough damage. Then of course there is Blink Dagger, which makes marksman type heroes so much more vulnerable. I've always been curious about what effect blink dagger would have if you added it into league.
Oh and thanks for making me feel old with that mordekaiser bit, but it doesn't make me feel as old as realizing how few people even remember the old runes and mastery system. I mean how many people would even know what you are talking about if you brought up "Thunderlord's" now?
I read "Leshrac" in your comment and I started building Mage Slayer out of habit lmao
But in all seriousness, Leshrac does deserve a mention in hindsight, even though I think he's better as a Pos 2. I'm not sure if it was TI5 or TI6 where Leshrac was in pretty much every match, and Sumail was absolutely rolling with him.
Very good point though on how the abundance of resources have changed the game over the years. Right now, I actually believe that Pos 1 is in the weakest it's ever been (and that says a lot, the role is still quite strong) with the nerfs to BKB and the abundance of supports with survivability items. Thanks to the gold changes, and Ammar, we're starting to see a lot of carry offlaners as well.
The TTK is actually what allows item actives to be so much more useful in Dota. I've been stunned for over 6 seconds as Sven, but still lived long enough to pop BKB and Satanic just because the TTK is so low, whereas even a 1 second stun is enough to end my life, even as a Xin Zhao, in League.
And my Hextech Gunblade Mordekaiser lives on in memory (and TFT)
@@Acex2ron Pretty sure it was TI5. Baumi has a neat channel, StoriesofDota, that covers the history of certain heroes by looking at them through the lens of their TI performances, and my recollection from the Lesh video was that his super OP patch, 6.84, was during TI5. I started dota the winter between TI2 and TI3 when he was played support, though, so I still have strong memories of him as that, and he's been an offlaner plenty of times as well. In fairness, Pos 1 is probably the role least often meta for him, I feel like there's only a few patches when it was anything but a rare, very niche, pick.
@@Acex2ron Indeed, pos 1 is really vulnerable these days and as a support main i am almost always certain that we can jump even a strong farmed pos 1 alone like its JJK and end him. I've been playing dota since 2012/2013 and i still remember the days when 30 minutes in the enemy carry that has been in the jungle all game would reveal himself like an anime villain and solo the entire team with no help or any difficulties. Sure, it was the early days when on a fundamental level players were a lot less knowledgeable and skilled, and what is now considered herald level game would have been a mid to high skill game.
Blink dagger kind of does exist on league. It's called flash and every champ has it on a 5 minute cooldown.
@@otsokarhu9695 5 min CD? Wtf seriously?
One of the things that feels the most different being the carry in League is that in the early game it feels like there's less to do; in DOTA it's pretty common to farm up to a farming item and rotate in and out of jungle to more efficiently get gold. In League I was surprised that the jungle is off limits (because of junglers) and that 'picking up' lanes for exp/last hits when that lane's core is backing/dead is not common place (usually supports).
at least earlygame, you just dont have the damage to kill jungle camps. camps are super tanky early on and if you arent the jungler you take way too much damage and time to really make it worthwhile to kill camps.
as for why you dont see people oicking up waves, i think its mostly just that it takes a lot of time. it takes like 20 seconds to walk to a lane and the summoner spell teleport has a 6 to 4 minute cool down thats better used to try and turn a fight
It's ALOT of things to do. You will be overwhelmed. Assume that you win lane and force the lanner to hug the tower, now you can deepward their jungle. Go with your own jungler to compete for crab/worm/herald/dragon. Or just make their jungler life miserable. Or even tower dive other lane. I literally don't have time to do them all as a jungler even if I don't intend to invade.
In terms of picking up lanes, it depends. If you go to roam to a lane, and let's say that laner dies, you might try to shove to have the wave crash and reset, or just trim the wave so that they can freeze. That or the jungle might cover something like mid while midlane roams, or maybe jungle helps kill top, top is too low to stick around so jungle shoves the wave, it's all just really based on circumstance.
Cuz you are thinking like a dota carry. You are supposed to roam with your jungler in certain timing so you can dominant their jungle.
What if for the next video you're talk about comeback mechanics in Dota and League or how is it to close the game between two games? Or is it already included in your gold mechanic? Thank you.. :3
Another great vid~!
May we please have one on the differences between Supports in Dota and LoL as well?
Gimme a few days :)
question completely unrelated to the video: what's with the gold border on Faceless Void's healthbar? (at 4:48)
kill streak effect
You can carry with any role in DotA, not just pos1. Pos2 has the most impact early on due to leading exp and Runes. Pos3 is dynamite, most of the time they have to be active (in a good way) once the laning stage ends, so having a more active and efficient pos3 is decisive. Supports can carry in many different ways. If an Enchantress can deal about the dmg of cores with only half resource, she carried the game. A Rubik who always manage to use enemies Ultimate also has most impact. A Nyx who solo kill enemy carry over 3 times is definitely the game changer. DotA decide who did the most based on Imapct per Gold/Exp
in DotA the hardest position to play is Hard Support(the carries support) - the life of the carry becomes very easy if you have a really good support; a good support will stack, pull, denied and die for the carry; all position main goal in the DotA is to make space for the carry to farm, most people don't get that, that's why they lose; and the priority of Position 1(Carry) and Position 2 (Mid) can change of who gets the farm; position 3(core offlane) never has prio to farm, he always takes the unsafe farm and always prioritizes to make space.
Similar shit goes for league. The support usually dictates how the adcs life will go in the match.
Bad support? You are likely to get stomped in lane
Good support? You have a chance to stomp lane if you dont troll
@@thepandrbr nah, league support don’t compare to support in dota. Warding, stacking, pulling, ganking, denying.
@@thepandrbr can league support give you a tango or healing salve ? can he bring ur items to lane ?
@@Robert-cx3ns warding and ganking are part of a support's duties in league (though ganking is usually called roaming). Denying doesn't exist in league, period. Now idk what you mean by stacking and pulling though.
@@shadowraze97 for the second question, fair point, it cant. For the first question, what are those things you're talking about
I think it is way easier to use active items in dota because of the simple fact the game is slower, there is not a way for a single not fed champ to oneshot you unless you are on the wrong place, on the other hand, in lol, if you are against any champion that got an item component 400 gold more expensive than yours, most likely he will burst you down or let you at 10hp and then wait to dive you
1 thing you forget is how sustain work in both lanes, in dota 2 with courier you can kinda make any lane work as long as don't get countered in the draft so you spam regen and just exist and its almost impossible to snowball dota 2 game and finish in 20-25 min when average game time is 40+, league is other way around, you not only limited on sustain but because game balanced around dodging spells not tank them if you start taking dmg in the face you lose laning phase in few min and after that you probably don't have time to farm/comback since enemy can from snowball finish at min 20-25
I would say it isn't that hard to snow ball in dota. You can literally demote offlaner into support. You can sustain as much as you want, you are just digging into your own networth with consumables. As an offlaner you don't have time to recover cuz you are ment to be active in the end of Laning phase to make space for others with really tight item timing. While the carry can take time to recover. As long as a carry trade even with offlaner, the carry is winning.
Love your content my guy. I can tell you're actually knowledgeable in both games and their nuances
Barely played league but the item choices sound horribly boring definetly a downgrade there is so much skill expression in buying items in dota
As someone who has played a lot of Dota, but mainly plays league, I think the dota item system is what i hate most about the game. Sure there's more skill expression with all of the options, but also, i find it so stupid that every single hero can have multiple stuns, silences and all types of crowd control, and also anyone can get cc immunity.
Yeah league players are notoriously bad with item shopping even with the limited options that are avalible, it should be flowcharted but many pro league players will lose simply by purchasing wrong. I think it's just a difference in depth of understanding build paths and lack of knowledge within the game tbh.
As an avid league player, the dota items almost seem to insane but it does seem really cool how much that can decide your games
As someone who played a lot of both, I like that in Dota, you don't lose or win on character select screen, there is ALWAYS something you can do to negate the enemy's strengths, you just need to be knowledgeable on how to use your tools. It also makes far more heroes viable in Dota compared to league
I think that the hardest role, at least in dota 2 is the support, but good video man...
Also, HSR OST, nice
Depends on the point of view. Support needs a lot of good mental and decision making, but its honestly the easiest role to climb
Penacony battle music slaps bro
In pubs, not really, but in pro games, the supports are the blood of the team, that's why team captains are often pos 5.
Pos4 is the hardest, than pos2. Depending on the meta. Rn these 2 are the most important roles. Yes, you heard that right. lol playeres: carrys aren't always the most important role.
About 10 years ago, I would have agreed. But ever since they added free wards, free courier and flying upgrade, glimmer cape, stacking gold, tormentor, and twin gates, Wisdom Runes, and all that other jazz? I've never had so much gold playing as Lion!
The biggest difference in League and Dota is, in non-pro games, one person cannot win a game in League, but one person can lose it. Meanwhile in Dota, as long as the carry is fed and head and shoulders above all the other players in terms of skill, he alone can win a game, even if one or two of his teammates are actively trying to lose.
I love this video it hits the nail on the head of what i feel is different and helped me identify what I was feeling
The thing I love about Dota 2 is that even with less characters it feels like I face more diverse comps with more room for players to make decisions for better or worse where as league feels more structured and streamlined when it comes to builds and team comp. Honestly love both, love stomping in either game even if it's balling out as miss fortune or bristleback
Great vid btw! But as a carry in immortal bracket, you can push the wave in Dota 2 because of the same reason in league, you get level 2 faster and pressure or even kill the enemy offlane. Also you can push the lane if you feel like you cant pressure the enemy offlane anymore (vanguard, blademail, etc) and by doing this you can speed up your farm. You also dont need to be the one who do the most damage. What I mean is sometimes you have a greedy mid or support who needs a lot of items (tinker,sf, marci,doom,etc), in order to not lose in 10 mins, you can pick tiny, ns, necro, pudge or ember so you can make space for your mid and supports later on in the game. But BKB is for sure the biggest difference xD.
I always love this concept and thinking back to when I first started playing ranked dota.
I played offlane abaddon EVERY game and going pure right click. I would max my passive. Max my shield. ignore my Q until level 21 and put my skill points into bonus attributes.
I'd build sange and yasha + basher + skadi every game and reduce the enemy carry's attack speed as much as I possibly could.
I went something like 80% win rate straight to 5k MMR by playing abaddon like a carry and no one expected it. It was wonderful.
I'm sooooo glad someone finally talked about stats. Every time someone complains about balancing issues in League, I just tell them it's a problem of poor core stat design, and most can't comprehend what the frick I'm talking about.
Ok, you actually covered literally every point of why Dota is much more grateful to balance. Lane compositions, active items, League's broken AP scaling, general game tempo, ttk, objectives. Awesome video.
Riot pretty much dismantled AD Carry role as "carry" and made every role being able to carry plainly through damage. AD Carries are now simply "marksmen", AD mages with more periodic and less burst damage. Basically you have only 3 roles in League: jungle support and laner.
The reason melee carries are the norm in dota is because they have better scaling skills and better attribute scaling. Melee carries in contrast to ranged carries gain better strength and agility meaning better hp, armor, atk speed and dmg. They also tend to get better scaling skills such as faceless having a time lock which basicly amplifies all his right click dmg. Drow ranger's ult amplifies her agility when in range but she is too afraid to be in the fight because she is squishier due to having less strength and agility attributes. There are also laning advantages for melees not only the dmg block chance but also quelling blade, you also have items like manta that gives better illusions for melee.
I like your video, i feel like 90% of the info is correct i just wanted to be specific on the melee vs ranged topic in dota.
This is very well put! Though there are items with different scalings for melee and ranged champions in League, like Eclipse.
I'm not super experienced with LoL, but one difference I felt when it comes to laning as a carry is that the absence of denies makes last hitting a trivial thing in league, wave management becomes much more about dodging skillshots and shoving wave, which reduces some of the load from your mind. In a high level dota game, every single last hit in lane is a hard fought battle.
with how cheap each minion are in League, missing up to 3 per wave doesn't make a dent to team's financial performance in a short run and one can makeup the difference by forcing the opposing laner to retreat. In my experience with DotA, though, my fellow laner often scold me whenever I failed at last hitting because my laning style has always been closer to LoL's, even before I become acquainted with the game.
in league, a really mechanically skilled player with counter pick harass you so hard you can't even CS at all, that's what the Lux/Caitlyn reference in the video is, you're so perma pushed even at the tower, so in a sense that's how you deny, the last hit mechanic is more in line with dota's gold mechanic that allows for more comeback options (and helps due to the gold reduction when you die)
I've experienced that many times where i was just really skilled gapped and counterpicked that i couldn't play anymore, wave management on the other hand is a bit different, there's a few videos on it mainly freezing lane (by only last hitting in the simplest sense) forcing the enemy hero to overextend, if that guy doesn't have a flash on CD, he's basically a sitting target for a gank for overextending
The minion-turret positioning in League is very depending on matchups, actually. For example, if you have a tank support, having minion close to your tower works in your favor, as they can easily set up ganks for the jungler. Conversely, with a tank support, you don't want to have your minions close to enemy towers, as the tanks will have no way to engage on them, except you want to stay and greed for some turret plates.
Magic carries aren't that meta in dota because at the end of the day physical damage is the only damage type that determimes on how slow or fast you destroy enemy buildings.
I know that might sound weird as it is the same in LOL. but dota heroes can buy back. And often if even one enemy core bought back it will lead your team that is not careful to over commit then die or straight up just lose the game.
Great video, more of a general lol vs dota video than a carry specific video, which is cool.
Only thing i dont think you touched on was how dota has highground sieges
Nyx can burst a spectre before she gets out of his stun. Mages do have options to scale. It's just that the ways to utilise them are inconvenient. Unless your combo naturaly involves doing an auto attack for the longbow mr shred and being up your enemy's armpit long enough to press a veil, eblade and a dagon.
Nyx is just a big fuck you to heroes that solo... Especially carries.
It's because of BKB,spell casters in dota are a bit less relevant in mid game because of bkb and pipe and that is why it works in lol because they dont have such. imagine using zeus and everyone is just running you down in clash while bkb is active on them lol
15:09 Not sure if I heard right but Luna is not an early end hero. She requires sustainability farm.
great video! as someone who plays both games on and off, i find that being a pos 1 is so much more enjoyable than ADC, mostly because i love the melee carry archetype (my mains are Jugg, Sven, and CK), but also for basically every reason that the roles differ lol
You'd be better off in Toplane if that were the case!
@@Acex2ron funny that: i am actually a top lane main in LoL! primarily Urgot, Gwen, Tryndamere and Jax
its also because position 1 carries don't get blown up in one second during mid game/late game
@@Cricket0021so, in LoL is it common thing to die in 1 frame after 20 minutes on ADC? I'm just new to the game and I was playing with my buddies when that happened to me several times, thought my build is bad or I don't have some crucial items to survive
@@IonPerseus yeah. there's a champion in league named "rengar" that deletes adc's and squishies in one jump. literally 100 to zero in one jump. its not that your build is bad, there are just characters in LoL that are made to delete squishies in one or two button presses
in Dota, Carry is only the hardest role if you have never played a moba. If you have base knowledge on how the game works then the hardest is probably Mid or position 4 (they have similar roles)
11:09 blud really called his mid clinkz pos1 with a safelane medusa on the team
I still dont understand why people are comparing 2 different games, I mean whats the point here? you like it you play it, as simple as that!
I've always been a dota 2 players since the dota 1 days, and I've never played or tried league, not even once, nor do I have any interest in doing so, not then, not now, and I think not even in the future, why is that? Is it because dota is better?
NO OFCOURSE NOT!! It's simply because I'm used to playing dota, and I felt that I still like it throughout the updates even until now, I'm not gonna go out saying oh Dota is so much better, it has so much more complexity than league and this and that bla bla bla, fuck that!! Because that's not true, every game is better for the person whos playing it, just play your own games, and stop comparing useless things guys, everything has it's own pros and cons, play what you think suits you the best!
the fact that dota farming patterns weren't mentioned... or the fact that pos 1s hit jungle creeps to farm (primarily too) alongside lane creeps
nice quality video man, hope it pops off
Thank you! Hope you do as well in your next game
"mana, which everyone has in dota"
Huskar in 7.36 - "i'm about to ruin this mans whole career"
The biggest difference between league and dota 2 comes down to their item designs: In dota, almost every item has an active that is on par in power to an extra spell. These item spells and effects give players more options. In league items have unique passives that only do something if some condition is met: Attacking a certain number of times; attacking a low hp enemy, ect. You dont have direct control, you try to get value from item passives by doing whatever the items 'want', which is usually attacking stuff. Items in league are mostly stat dumps that enhance what your character already does instead of giving you more options.
The interesting thing I recently noticed in dota is that since new frontiers patch(I dunno about the previous ones because I didn't play for a very long time and got back to the game right after new frontiers got released) It's also possible for a hero from different position to become a n unstoppable force who will truly carry the game. Obviously not every hero but there are some offlaners and midlaners who outscale even some of the hard carries.
For midlane the most noticeable would be OD. He doesn't need to buy dmg or attack modifiers because his dmg output comes completely from his Q. So only stats he has to focus on are attack speed and mana. However 5/6 slotted OD outdamages juggernaut, Anti-mage, Medusa etc. The only carry he cannot outdamage with full build in any matchup is Drow ranger simply because of how absurd amounts of agility Drows ulti provides on top of ignoring armor.
Another example would be Tinker who is often called a "pos 1 played on midlane" the idea for this hero is that you start with him on mid, however you need your safelaner to pick a hero who actually has some early game agency and spike on 1/2 items instea dof 3/4 items(like Ursa, juggernaut, Slark etc.) so Tinker can just flash farm entire jungle after laning phase.
On offlane I noticed particularly 2 hardest scaling champs which are Slardar and Centaur Warruner.
Both of those are icnredibly powerfull when 6 slotted and while they may not deal as much dmg as pos 1 carries do. Their tankiness allow them to become a true unkillable raidboss who just runs wherever he wants, stays on top of whoever he wants and kill them just 2/3 seconds slower then pos 1 would.
Slardar(with correct build) can easily get to 5000 HP, about 130 HP regen/sec with about 70% armor while magic resist si provided by BKB while 6 slotted. So he is incredibly tanky, and still smashes everybody with 500 dmg per auto attack further amplified by his enourmus 20 armor reduction.
Centaur on the other hand can get to 10 K HP during a teamfight when 6 slotted and with bought shard. And since all of his abilities, except hoof stomp scale with his strenght, he is gonna deal huge chunks of dmg to enemies and burst the down even in late game
sometimes i remember the LC with 300+ damage that stood against my PA 0 5 and i want to cry
patience, that is the difference between carry in dota and lol. I've noticed that carries in lol tend to get more impatient the minute it hit a 30mins mark, dota on the other hand 30 minutes is just the start of mid to late game depends on your hero. If you are picking a morph for example, it is very crucial for you to be patient because it'll take you to have 3 to 4 items to feel that you are playing a carry
Even some Dota players can get impatient! I've had my fair share of Voids trying to be the hero and landing a 3-man chrono only to have no followup lmao
(tho admittedly, that Void is sometimes me)
Hearing "this actually allows for more dynamic composition" and realizing you are talking about league made me do the pikachu face, ngl
I think the part when "Mage in dota doesn't scales with items" is a bit misleading.
Sure, the damage is fixed to certain amount for most heroes, but items scaling the mages by giving them 'options' other than damages. For examples, silencer's 3rd skill started by being single target, but with item Aghanim Scepters, it makes the skill into aoe+ground target. Another "Mage core" items like bloodstone, octarine core, or RO also scale the mages pretty well (spell lifesteal, cd reduction, and spell amp), but not in 'raw damage' departement.
Also also in dota, other pos other than carry can snowball and manfight the other team alone too, y'know? Its just that recovering in dota is quite easy since the map is big and there's creep everywhere
Still, your video were informative and fun to hear into. This is but a small addition fron me :)
some dota carries are not even attack based hero. pudge, leshrac, necrophos were used as a carry role in professional level matches.
The fact that you can play like shit and still make a detailed video about adc just proves how OP the ability to speak is!
"dota mages don't scale" that's really not the case anymore. there are now SO MANY decent spell dmg dealers that are among the strongest late game heroes in dota. i would even go as far and say it got switched. if you look at dotabuff heroes with longest match duration you find SK, AA, ES, Techies etc. TB, Naga etc. are now early game heroes that want to flash farm and finish fast, while a 6 slotted Enigma can solo kill anyone.
Correct. Even lion if being let to scale. He can finger 5 man to half HP, probably also one shot 2 of their supports. Skywrath, OD, even Zeus is super strong with late game items.
You know what, after playing a 65 minute game against SK and his cancerous Aghs the other day? I can’t say you’re wrong!
Their damage doesn’t scale the same way PA’s or Void’s does, but they are nasty once enemy BKBs are down to 6 seconds.
They’re still not gonna be played as 1 tho simply because they don’t right click towers as easily. But then, like anything in Dota, you can draft around them and get tower damage elsewhere.
It's an interesting dynamic. Carries usually have some way of speeding up their farm, which allows them to get their 6 slots faster. But if everyone has 6 slots, carries aren't that much stronger. Techies is just cancer most of the time though. Citing Baumi, "1 vs 9, techies vs fun".
You didn't mention how abilities scale which is a HUGE reason why melee carries historically have had such a bad time in LoL. But honestly, in Lol you can have roles other than ADC also carry late game, which doesn't really happen in DOTA without large skill difference.
I would say most of it is the turn speed. Items and tankiness have an impact. But the ability to be to do damage while experiencing near 0 movement loss is so strong as a mechanic that in a different game called Starcraft, it's essentially the sole reason why Terran is viable.
Great video I personally have hopped between playing league and DOTA casually for many years, and I definitely agree with a lot of what you said! Thanks for the great video and keep up the good work
The main difference is, in League my 6 items Zeri can go from 100 - 0 in .05 seconds if i mistep A PIXEL. No matter how fed i am.
In Dota my 6 items muerta has counter play options to deal with the bullshit the enemy is trying to throw at me.
In DOTA not all magic heroes are supports. There's Storm spirit, Invoker, Tinker, void spirit, etc that scale well into the late game
Honestly leagues pos 1 is the mid laner and not the ADC. There is a reason that Faker is the GOAT.
In the department of laning stage you didnt mention denys and creep aggro
When it comes to item scaling, dota also incorporates alot of defense in their carry build, butterfly with evasion, falcon with hp, bkb etc, Making carries way tankier than league adc where they buy an item with DAMAGE, crit (Rng damage), attack speed (faster damage) and a passive that deals MORE DAMAGE.
I really like how dota manages to give every hero tank and dmg items in 6 slots. Meanwhile league champs are just dmg item heroes. No defense for them. Weaklings.
@@Lastofhiskind-00 That's what I hate. They don't have a defined role in combat. They are both tanker and damage dealer when fed, making it a much more one side battle for the winning side, while also making other role feel worthless since it's would reach a point where the match is decided by 2 carry duking out with each other.
@@cynt4416 every hero can be tanky and dmg dealers at the same time making the game intense. I don't understand why league cucks cry so much about how differently dota works. Grow up and touch grass.
There are lots of range carries in DOTA…. Ever since they removed the mini blink on abyssal blade, range carries usually had the best win rates in DOTA ie lina / Medusa meta.
awesome video ! another thing I noticed is that DotA has often point-click homing CCs while almost everything in League is a skillshot so it's a bit more wary for DotA carries
btw, wouldn't you consider Obsidian, Necro, and Tinker as Hard Carries? at least in DotA 1 they were due to their extreme mana (though in the case of Necro it's more on like being tanky, extreme mana, and AoE %health shredding); there's also Kardel
I dont think OD and Tinker are the archetypical hard carry. They both really want levels fast, and so they go mid. OD also doesn't really farm very fast. Tinker can also really die very fast if he gets jumped on from fog. Necro can be played as a pos 1 though, especially with the more recent aghs change where he just becomes a raidboss.
Pos1 magic dmg dealers are common in the past, they're not meta right now so we dont see them so often
Fun Fact: Ogre Magi doesn't gain INT or recieve INT stats on items.
14:34 Monkey king appears in games where producers want to sell their game in China. It's similar to how they often make viking characters if they want to sell it in EU or NA.
Hey, I remember the time when Lord Miracle was at his peak. When he played Invoker (the spellcaster), he was legit pos1 while his carry (Matum or Notail I'm not sure) was kind of pos2 for the team.
That str agi intel system bring some durability onto the table for pos1.
I agree that magic dmg in dota doesn't scale with items except spell amplify buff, but in dota most of the spells are scaled significantly with aghanim' scepter, shards and talents. Currently some items make dota heroes that usually build physical dmg become a magic dmg dealer, which the dmg also scaled with attack stat (khanda and revenant brooch + new rapier since it gives spell amp), those items changed the dota meta entirely for a while until the dev realized that the combo between those item are just too broken, and then they nerfed revenant brooch cannot crit and rapier became a toogle item to choose between attack or spell amp.
And now we even got the facet system that make it once again broken, some heroes even has incredibly strong spell at lv 1.
The difference is in league your screen gets this gray shade while you watch netflix
Dota have a lot of item that improve spell damage, wdym its only Kaya
there Khanda, Veil, Aghanim (shrad and blessing), Orchid, Eblade that used as regular magic dmg amp (maybe not straightforward, but it does amp magic dmg)
CD reduction via Octarine or reset with refresher
Also, I think you mean "Magic Dmg carries" as a "Nuker"
in Dota, magic Dmg is not to viable because Magic Damage doesnt do damage to Tower/Buildings very well
So, breaking high ground is problem and sieging enemy high ground is hard for INT Carries, except for heroes like Lesrac
LoL doesnt realy do Comeback, but in DoTa Comeback moment happen everytime -enemy siege HighGround.
and with things like Buyback having no Physical carries made very risky draft that might lose you the game - because even if you wipe enemy team, if your team cant do structural damage fast enough, it would give ample time for enemy to counterattack or ramp defense up in the tower. which make winning a fight become less decisive strategicaly
Great video, thanks for the effort and comparison!
I want to give some feedback for 12:25. Magic damage is king in lategame dota. When bkb's are running low lategame magic damage becomes very important. For most heroes magic resistance is not as high as armor is. This is why Reventant's Brooch was created for physical damage heroes to use this fact lategame (look at Mars double rapier rev brooch build). Pos 2's like Storm and Leshrac and scale extremely well into lategame and there are a plethora of items that boosts their archetype to punch at the level of traditional right click carries.
In conclusion, saying Dota's design philosophy for magic damage is that it falls of late game is a very outdated concept and items released in recent patches allude to this fact.
You know this is a very well thought out comment and I can't disagree. My take on this is that lategame, carries are still at the top, but it's just we've started seeing the emergence of the ultra late game phase as well in the past few years. 55+ minute thrillers, your team's starting to stack neutrals for Tier 5s, when your 5 CMs are starting to get BKB-Aghs and solo win teamfights. I would even say that in this iteration of the game, the power of magic damage is like some sort of reverse bell curve, where it goes down towards the midgame when people start to buy Glimmers, Pipe, BKB, and Shroud, but then it goes back up once the Glimmers get sold and the Aghs get bought.
SK Aghs is the main offender. Sieging high ground in the lategame against a Sniper or Drow + SK with Aghs Bloodstone is probably one of the hardest things to do in Dota. I mean you might as well give em back Shrines with how hard it is to go HG and the insane rubberband comeback gold doesn't help.
Also, since you mention it Revenant's Brooch is a horribly designed item. You spend a whole game itemizing against a physical damage carry, and then they buy Brooch and laugh at the 10k+ gold you've spent on armor items? I guess you could say the same with Nullifier, but even then it's a gimmicky item to use. Hopefully IceFrog can go back to the drawing board with this one.
Thanks so much for the feedback, and the insightful comment!
@@Acex2ron Thanks for the quick response! Have a great day
You've forgotten to mention brooch that gave magic right click damage. Unfortunately it was nerfed in 7.35d
Most carry position in Dota2 : Early hard time, carry the team at last
Most carry position in LoL : Always foreshadowed by their support of another teammate lol
ADC right now doesnt have an identity. Their role is supposed to be the constant damage dealer that counters tank.
ADC counters tank since they can wither them down
Tank/bruiser counters mage/assassin because tanks can survive their burst and smack them or heal up before their cooldown comes back up.
Mage/assassin counters ADC with their instant burst of damage and blow them up.
But why every role for some reason one shots the adc and dish out the same damage as they do, even the tanks
League right now has a damage issue. Where even the tanks gets deleted in 2 secs or tanks deleting anyone.
Riot will be buffing crit items maybe they can now go build 2 defensive items without hurting their damage output
Nah. League has fundamental design problems. Adcs will never be able to viably build defensive options.
You should have a video about "Tanks" in DOTA and League.
9:55 isnt it every 4 min after first drake ?
Dota has a ton of items to scale with magic damage, and Magic damage heroes are more likely to be the ones who've dealth the most damage to the enemy by the end of a match. Zeus, Lina, Timber, Veno, QoP, Necrophos, Leshrak or even supports like Jakiro or Techies are often the ones who has the highest "damage dealt" on the end match stat screen. Kaya gives raw magic amp, but Veil gives spell damage taken debuff, Eblade gives you temporary -40% resistance, Aghs often opens new avenues to deal damage (Qop, Necrophos), Parasma puts another -25% magic resistance, Octarine reduces cooldowns to spam spells more often and Refresher allows to double up your combo in a lategame fight to deal tremendous damage. With all of that plus mandatory 1-2 defensive slots every hero needs regardless of position (for casters it's usually Windwaker and Linkens/BkB) you easily fill up your full inventory. Not to mention that Rapier now has Spell Amp mode. Carry is always a righclick core because you need to quickly take objectives while the enemy team is dead - that is the most reliable win condition. In those drafts where you have structure damage from pos 2 (Tiny, Lesh) or pos3 (zoo heroes) you sometimes see Necrophos or like Doom emerge as Pos 1 (but that's rare). Also that is the same reason why heroes like Riki never stick as a pos1 outside of low(ish) end pubs, because they take forever to kill the base.
I played Main Support in both Games too,...
I was playing DotA 1 in Warcraft 3 in my Highschool days then switched to League when I was studying for College
I was Master in League and I stopped playing right after I reached it because I was enjoying playing DotA 2 during the release,...
I started calibrating in DotA and got Archon and years goes by I'm still Archon LMAO
It's only then when DotA introduced Neutral Items where I've got to reach Immortal
So let's talk about my Opinion in DotA and League:
In DotA you get to actually do your Role as a Support than in League
In DotA you have to be aggresive in Lane so your Carry will have a good time, you can also Pull Camp, Stack Camps, Deny Creeps(Minions), hunt Wards, etc.
You can actually do sort of things to be a real Support in DotA than in League were you only trade shots and skills
if u want to finish early u pick luna in dota2 ? since when ? one of the best farmer for late game ....
Tempo hero, Luna's farm makes her above everyone else at mid game, her mid game is her late game, she out paces other carries
@@nicmagtaan1132 she is still one of the best late game carries not mid game carry
Melee in dota works because things in LoL die too quick. Imagining somebody build explicit damage item or no damage had to go so close to tenant team just to get deleted in less than a fragment of a second.
in dota, you can either be a right click carry/pure damage or a magic type carry and there's hero's who can do both like Lina, Zeus, Ember and Void Spirit
Blud thinks he can hide the honkai star rail combat music in the background
"Blud".
Clearly not a Crib
Dota is so diverse, man, and I love how League is getting diverse now too, I get to see several heroes played in 3-4 different roles during pro-matches in League, like "where does that come from? nevermind, I love it". For Dota diversity was there always, as one Dutch world champion in dota once said: "Everything can work!", yes it is, in dota everything can work, given time to practice the heroes.
Very nice video, a lot of interesting insight!
Excellent music too.
15:14 did you say "Hyper-carry like Bane or Spectre.."?
vayne or spectre
I HEAR THAT HSR MUSIC IN THE BACKGROUND.
Leauge use to have a late game , but riot wanted shorter match timers on adverage so they added damege everywhere excpt carry aince rhey aleeady did damage now matchs are won and lost on 20 mins late game is getting to 3 items,
My friend, ranged carries are much more. widespread than you think. Here is list of the ranged-carry heroes that could be witnessed in a pro scene: Lina (physical) , Zeus (physical), Muerta, Troll, Shadowfiend, Templar Assassin, Luna, Razor, Arc Warden, Leshrac, Morphling, Weaver, Medusa. And this is not even a full list.
Extremely varied too. None of these guys play any similar to one another. Sadly the only ranged carry I can play competently is Gyrocopter.
Oh for sure! I got the most popular heroes played primarily as Pos 1 over Dota 2's lifespan on Dotabuff, and that's where I got the info. I'm just hesitant to put a few of those as ranged "carries" since Arc Warden is played mid, Razor is played offlane, etc.
Also idk whether to classify Troll as a ranged carry since he's in melee form like 80% of the time
Ranged troll is a joke, and lesh just doesn't rely on his attack damage, he is eager to get as close as he can to maximize his W and R dmg
The point he's trying to make is melee carries are nonexistent in LoL compared to Dota
@@Dokurider melee carries exist in Lol, they're called fighters, they're generally in the Top Lane solo (sometimes played in mid and at one point in lieue of the ranged carry), in general top lane is mostly for Tanks/Fighters/Bruisers and certain niche ranged scaling carries like Kayle, there's also niche ranged carries to counter but they're generally have to have a decent team composition and teamwork to pull off
I had no idea Dota items were so INSANE that’s wild
Have you ever thought of comparing LoL and DOTA’s lore, like a mix of this and the Fallout video…?
Like looking at specific characters or the setting as a whole, and discussing how this affects character designs, views on characters, etc…?
Definitely something I'm interested in doing down the line!
League lore is definitely more interesting than dota lore.
For me, it's how they design their hero/champs in the game. In LoL, champs abilites and kits are tailored for their specific role, that's why some champs are fitted at most 2 roles, 3 if ur build are crazy enough.
Meanwhile in dota, hero kits are usually more flexible. Icefrog basically gives u hero with certain kits and said "now do whatever u want, build as crazy as u can". We've seen dazzle in every position, razor and tb as pos 5 in pro scene, and god knows what topson will cook in pubs
I do think you're forgetting about quite a few ranged hard carries in dota such as luna, TA, Medusa, and gyro