HARSH ARGUMENT | PILOTS vs CONTROLLER at San Francisco International
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ม.ค. 2024
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Here's my view.
My opinion is that this was totally unnecessary, from both sides.
ATC could have been clearer on the instruction to proceed into the gate giving more information on why JBU2436 could proceed (JBU434 was the one blocking the gate but had already been cleared to move and taxi) but how could JBU2436 know that?
The frequency was busy (some unrelated communications far from this airport corner were trimmed) so I guess it's difficult to locate the callsign of the aircraft that you see ahead blocking your way into the gate, not even doing a good monitor of the radio.
Also be advised the aircraft position in the animation is approximate. JBU434 might have started taxiing right after being cleared or delaying the move a little, so JBU2436 might consider that was not the traffic that had just been cleared to taxi. Airplanes don't have a radar screen onboard to see who is whom around them on the ground (newest TCAS systems might via ADS-b)
I stand to JBU2436 pilots deciding not to move the airplane (having the risk of getting stuck somewhere ahead) until having the certainty of the gate not being blocked anymore.
The busy environment for SFO ATC and extra delay to Jetblue pilots also added to the tension on the radio.
What are your thoughts on this? Let me know in the comments.
Of course I didn't see the whole thing unfold, but based on this video I don't think the pilot was in the wrong, at least in terms of the issue at hand. The pilot was simply telling tower he was unable to taxi to the gate at the time, which he was indeed unable to do as Jetblue 434 hadn't began it's taxi yet. I don't think he was wrong in not assuming ground meant "once the gate is clear". Ground should have said it, but he never clarified it. If ground just took the time to add that he could taxi to the gate when the gate was clear, this exchange would've been pretty normal.
I will say the pilot was being unnecessarily snarky to ground at the end there though
I think one aspect not covered is Jet Blue ground operation. 2436 arrives in the gate area to find its gate occupied at 4:04 pm and finally the gate is clear at 4:28. That is 24 minutes. I don't know what was going on, but they should have probably changed the gate to take 2436 in earlier. I had this happen to me flying into Frankfurt twice and both times Lufthansa ground changed the gate/remote stand to park the plane quickly. It delays the passengers by a little bit because they need to reposition the ground crew, but not by 24 minutes and doesn't leave a plane stranded on the taxiways like in this scenario.
By the way, I had a similar thing happening to me in SFO flying United, and they changed the gate within 2 minutes of us waiting for our gate to open.
I'm saying that because I'm looking at the human factor. The ground controller was probably annoyed by 2436 taking up so much space and the pilots were probably annoyed by the long wait (was it their final leg and they were tired and rushed to get off the plane? They had another leg to fly and worried about the delays?). They both acted unprofessional but I see a big human factor at play here
I wonder if you could FOIA the recording of the call that came after this exchange. I know most government agencies are required to comply with these requests, and they would be giving out the recorded line for these types of calls.
@@LucaAlbertalli great comment, thanks. I don't know how Jetblue handling works on this matter. Maybe all other gates were also occupied. Remember this animation only shows related traffic.
I think maybe when the pilot said the gate was blocked, the controller heard “blocked” and repeated the clearance, and the pilot heard that as being told to move. But yeah, if the controller had just said “proceed to gate when that plane is clear” it likely would have avoided the misunderstanding.
The ATC lost this battle with the “would you like to just hold there for rest of the day.” That is extremely unprofessional
Should have replied "yes that's fine" *cricket cricket*
SFO have the rudest controllers
especially since he was patiently waiting and complying with ATCs orders to do circles on the taxiways due to other traffic. Controller could have simply stated he was aware gate B8 was blocked and to taxi up to B9 and enter B8 when able. Pilot did nothing wrong.
"OK, want me to pull my exit slides? Thatll *definitely* tie us all up for the rest of the day."
;) Joking of course.,
@@dublinairportplanes The are well known for all sorts of issues
All ground had to say was “the aircraft blocking your gate will be moving shortly. Taxi to the gate when you can”.
Napoleon syndrome
Seriously... typical ATC god factor... ugh!
Thats implied, If you got to spell it out for the pilots its time for them to go pilot-less. Overpaid bus drivers!
@@toddw6716you can’t imply anything when you give a clearance
@@oscarholmberg3157 well the controller implied the pilot had common sense. I guess they don’t!
“Taxi to B8 when clear.” Is all that needed to be said.
And that is what is implied. Not saying that either behavior from ATC or pilots was professional, but if the pilot would gotten a taxi instruction to taxi A, B and C, would they replied, we can´t because someone else is taxing on B....
The amount of videos coming out of SFO in the last 6 months is certainly something.
It’s SQL’s big brother.
I felt like it was always JFK/EWR being spicy but yeah there's definitely a trend here.
@@matrixab4356 And what race do you think ground is in this video?
Whole lot of smug
@@aerofiles5044the homosexual kind
This seems to be a recurring thing in San Francisco, arguments between ATC and pilots. Regardless of who is at fault, the pattern is telling
Nailed it. Reminds me of the Lufthansa flight the controller kept in a hold. Irritability all around reduces safety. I also think after a string of incursions and recent accidents pilots are starting to become really wary of clearances into occupied space.
San Francisco 🏳️🌈💪
And at this rate, the bells will soon be tolling.
Is there a current fecal map for KSFO so pilots can dodge the piles during taxi?
pls shut up, cringe
I can’t blame the pilots too much. They were waiting for the gate for 30 minutes without updates or alternatives.
Indeed! And then they were told to proceed to a blocked gate after being told to block a pushback earlier.
Reason #1 why I don't fly jet blue. Their ops is atrocious.
@@wkelly3053 excuse us for voicing our opinions. Instead of being condescending, maybe you could educate we the unwashed.
If he says continue to the gate, pretty much clearance to do it at your discretion, time to do some captain stuff skipper 🤣
@@wkelly3053 "I'm going to accuse you of not knowing wtf you're talking about, without elaborating further."
Controller owes that pilot an apology. There was no reason for such an attitude.
“Would you like to just hold there for the rest of the day?” - this is where the line is crossed. I understand both sides are stressed, etc. But that ATC comment is absolutely uncalled for in any circumstance. Unbelievable.
I think it's meant as a joke (albeit cheeky), not a threat.
They had been waiting for 30 minutes, the controller just wanted to get them moving sooner if anything. He was probably a bit confused as to why they suddenly wouldn't budge after he issued an obvious clearance to taxi to the gate as the company traffic in front had just gotten its taxi clearance.
But Captain Happy over here had to act all tough and nitpicky.
@@hotrodoftheskies Apparently the radio was pretty busy. I don’t blame the pilots for missing that implicit connection, they can’t read ATC’s mind. Pilot was clearly confused by this. ATC had a chance to clarify in response, but didn’t. Given context, I can’t understand the “joke” as anything but condescending. Obviously not a threat, just a mean response, when pilots had been waiting so long.
Also, I’d much rather a pilot be completely sure they understand ATC before moving, than not. Consider recent tragedy in Japan, for example.
@@Toothily Of course, ATC could have been clearer, but so could have the JBU crew. Their initial message ("It's blocked") wasn't exactly standard or helpful either.
Of course, everyone would want pilots that double check unclear instructions when close to a runway, or with low visibility for instance.
But we're talking about taxiing in broad daylight and good visibility here, it's not exactly rocket science.
A mean response ? Come on now, there was nothing mean, the JBU pilot could easily have brushed it off. This makes him sound like he chose to be difficult on purpose.
@@hotrodoftheskies I don’t agree, but I don’t wanna bicker over it so I’ll leave it at that
@@hotrodoftheskies sounded like a threat to me!
ATC at SFO acts like their excrement smells of roses. All ATC had to say was, proceed once the plane currently their taxis away.
No need... That's not a requirement when you listen to the clearance. Obviously ATC isn't gonna tell them to taxi into an airplane, it's an automatic, "when able" clearance to taxi to the gate whenever they can.
If the Jetblue was paying attention, they'd see the company jet is about to taxi and just got a clearance.
@@erauprcwa It's not a requirement but it's a courtesy that would have probably ended the conversation and made things go more smoothly. But both sides refused to budge and this is what happened instead.
Yeah I mean the controller could have just said "cleared to your gate when the other plane moves" or replied with "he should be moving any second." Pilots could have also asked if the plane was going to move instead of being pissy.
Indeed
That's not the way clearances work though. The JetBlue could still be cleared to the gate and the pilot moves the plane waiting for it to be clear. It's like a blocked intersection in traffic. Just because you have the green light doesn't mean you cross if you're going to block the intersection.
@@xplayman which is what they did
I think the controller was fine.. but I understand why the JetBlue pilot got pissed, he was getting annoyed at being stuck. Should have kept it off the air though, he was the unprofessional one.
@@xplaymanthat's not how clearances work. He was cleared to continue to his gate. His clearance limit is his gate. It means he can move freely from his position (B14) to B8 freely
And again… it’s happening in San Francisco😂😅
SFO again and again and again...Would also stand with the JetBlue but all ATC would have needed to do is add an "cleared after company moves" or something like that. He could at least have done that after the JetBlue pilot brought the blocked gate to his attention, instead of being pissed off by the JetBlue professionalism.
There was no need to say that... Do you need a "when able" call when you're number 5 for takeoff and there are airplanes in front of you for departure?
Hindsite is always 20/20, but a simple 'when able, proceed into the gate' would have worked wonders.
"Behind company traffic, proceed to gate" is the short version of "yep, I see your fellow pilot blocking your gate, but he's moving, and you are can as well when he is out of the way." This is the right thing to say.
Likewise, "do you want to hold there for the rest of the day?" is the short version of "don't you know us frazzled SFO controllers have thin skin and a propensity to delay aircraft until they are fuel-critical? Don't call me unprofessional on frequency or I will violate you." This is the wrong thing to say.
ATC pretended to know the situation with a bogus confidence. He needed retraining. ATC lost all respect when he issued a threat to keep pilot there all day.
@@gzhang207 It wasn't a threat, it was a simple question. The controller gave a clearance to taxi and the Jetblue airplane refused.
Hindsight is rarely 20/20. I find an average of about 20/40 throughout society, but it seems to be getting close to 20/80 lately! :p
Yes
Charming ground controller. Transfer to a job with less chance of creating a mess.
Janitor
like baggage handler
SFO be a decent airport for once challenge (impossible)
Nothing to do with atc, but my dad has this nail clipper in a keychain that he has. SFO is the only tsa checkpoint that has ever stopped him for it.
For once I'd like to tell a back-talkin' ground controller to 'Let me know when you're ready to copy this number, possible ground controller deviation' LOL
😂
So, why was the pilot given "a number to call?" What reprimand would he receive for trying to follow murky directions that could jeopardize his plane, crew, and passengers? The aircraft was on the ground way too long the way it was.
ATC on a power trip is why, lol
Controller didn't indicate that it was possible pilot deviation. I think they might just want to hash it out because they're proud to just give clear instructions and move on with their lives. Everyone here is snarky for no reason whatsoever, but at least the pilot is the one following instructions and patiently waiting for his turn for like 20 minutes.
Because they’re gonna talk off frequency so the controller can continue to do his job. He’s not going to be reprimanded. The clearance wasn’t “murky”. I hear that clearance every day I’m at work and everyone understands it. SFO has a crappy reputation right now and rightfully so but this is not an example of a bad controller.
The pilot criticised the controller for blocking the frequency, which was fair, but the controller wanted to continue to argue about it, so asked to continue by phone. If there had been anything to discuss, that would be entirely correct. The controller should have just acknowledged that he could have been clearer with his instruction and dropped it, though.
A controller can't reprimand a pilot. The controller works for the pilot. The government works for the pilot. An administrative court is the only one that can levy a penalty against the pilot, but only for violating laws, not policies or some other FAA nonsense. The controller forgot his place again.
You don't want to readback/accept those taxi instructions if you're unable to perform them. This ensures that everyone has the same mental picture of positions/movement.
The controller escalated this issue, when the simple resolution was adding "when able" or re-issuing those taxi instructions after the gate was clear.
You're #10 for departure. Are you just gonna stop taxiing to the runway because there are people in front of you, then argue with controllers because people are in front of you and they didn't tell you?
Roger thank you, understand we have a takeoff delay due to AIRPORT INCOMPETENCE, we will file a report lol!
SFO controllers stay unprofessional. They must be absolutely miserable working there.
I mean you got to live in the worst city in the US so I’m not surprised
It is San Francisco
It's San Francisco. Of course they are miserable. Kalifornians managed to turn a beautiful location into a garbage dump.
@@oldNavyJZ Ok boomer.
The pilot was the one that sounded unprofessional. ATC was just trying to get him to his gate ASAP after a significant delay.
Look at the time elapsed. Sequencing is everything.
Time equals money in this case it would be a lot
Controller just needed to add "When able" or clarify "He's about to move, when able" after the pilot questioned.
The pilot had been there for 30minutes with minimal news, I understand the frustration on that side.
The controller's response was unproffesional as the pilot said.
The "news" is the company operations, NOT ground control. Ground doesn't know when they're gonna push. So it's on the JetBlue aircraft to find out how long the delay will be.
The actions of both ATC and the pilot can be justified to some extent. Pilots may be worried about the blocked gate and instructions since they don't know that the other plane is cleared to taxi. ATC is also right in that having clearance to taxi to the gate means you can move your plane and expect that it's not going to be blocked by the time you get there. What can't be justified is the snarky tone of the ATC snapping at the pilot. Could have been avoided entirely.
Na, the ATC's actions can't be justified. They gave an instruction that could not be executed when it was given. One thing they teach pilots is to never, ever, assume anything. If the instruction is not clear, or does not make sense, then the instruction should be questioned. ATC cleared them to the gate and the gate was not open. Pilot correctly stated "I can't, it's blocked". The proper response from ATC should have been to give a more detailed instruction "when company traffic clears the gate, cleared to gate B8". That is an instruction that could be executed.
@@neutralcommenter7800the instruction absolutely made sense. He had been waiting for 30 minutes for the gate. Of course when the controller finally tells you to taxi to the gate the plane that is blocking is going to start moving . It’s clear and obvious when a plane is ready to taxi when the push crew is out of the way. I agree ATC could have done a little more to avoid all this, put that pilot gets paid too much money to act the way he did too.
@@neutralcommenter7800lmao that is so divorced from reality. “Taxi alpha, alpha 6, bravo” is entirely valid if there are already planes lined up on alpha, alpha 6, or bravo. This was no different than that - you’re cleared to the gate via this taxiway. How do you think planes taxi at busy airports? One at a time per taxiway? “Hey air Canada 1, we’ve got to keep you on A1 waiting for A to clear, because the plane two miles down the taxiway is still on A, I can’t clear you on to it.”
@@qwerty112311Air Canada does the opposite actually. They'll buzz 4 loaded widebodies on the Taxiways of SFO if you ask them to wait.
@@qwerty112311 What you've done is a straw man argument. You've replaced my argument with a different scenario that is not the same (and changed the standard from an instruction that can be executed (what I argued) versus one that is "valid"), then argued that other scenario. Even under your scenario you are still wrong - ATC would include in the instruction, "pull in behind company traffic" or "pull in behind the 737". The only reason you are arguing this is because of how mundane the situation was. Here is a better analogy that is more clear: "Cleared to Land, Runway 31R" When the pilot is just about to land they see that there is another plane occupying runway 31R. The instruction was "valid" but the runway (just as the gate in this audio) was occupied and the instruction cannot be executed. Should the pilot just land anyway based on the assumption that the other plane would be clear of the runway by the time the plane that was cleared to land actually landed - after all ATC wouldn't have cleared them to land if the runway wasn't going to be clear when they got there (THAT IS THE EXACT SITUATION IN THIS AUDIO)? NO. The instruction was not clear as it could not be safely executed and the pilot should question the controller. Just because the situation is more mundane here doesn't mean the pilot shouldn't do what is safest by questioning ATC.
Pilot could’ve said “plane’s still blocking”. ATC could’ve said “plane is about to move”.
Or pilot could have just read back the clearance and continue his taxi behind the other aircraft
Stay classy SFO! Jesus this is nuts. Between SQL and SFO you could make a separate channel for them.
Kudos to the pilot waiting 20 minutes for his gate! Dont know whats wrong with the controller but he seems stressed and becoming unprofessional indeed.
I wonder how much per minute it costs just to have an aircraft with passengers on board just waiting
@@chrisharkins6929 they have insurance for that. Both airlines and insurers make a lot of money so at the end of the day the only one paying for it is the passengers. 🤠
“When able, taxi to the gate”. That is all that needs to be said.
This channel is making me seriously consider taking the train to my next vacation.
If you do: get a sleeper unit or it'll be totall f***ing nightmare.
I think it felt to the pilot like ATC was getting irritated that he doesn’t move while he can’t, so he explained the situation multiple times, including offering to move to B9.
The ATC was unprofessional, just had to say “move when available”, that’s all, without threats to abuse his power
JetBlue pilot was just being stupid. Continue to the gate is so simple, once there's an opening taxi in.
The JB pilots also shows professionalism while they finally taxi to the gate. They focus on taxi and parking instead of replying SFO Ground offensively talking about the numbers. Once they parked, they answered back to copy. At that moment, I think that controller forgot he was still working as ATC and just wanted to have a fight.
Controllers often forget they are optional to the air traffic system. They are servants to the system, not authority. Authority comes only from the taxpayer, delegated to the FAA via specific laws. Controllers are merely an optional means to that end. Plenty of airports operate without controllers and controllers will one day be eliminated either by legislation or technology.
@@AquariusTurtleeliminate controllers? Sure.. just like eliminate pilots... these busy airports can have pilots metering themselves in lol
@@jakes_on_a_planeOf course it is possible to eliminate controllers. Air Traffic Service is just that, a service. It's not the ultimate authority, the aircraft users are. Software can be used to deconflict and create plans for aircraft queuing in all phases of flight. It already exists in piecemeal. There's no good reason to keep controllers. Getting rid of pilots is not a good idea. No computer is reliable enough with the severe limitations of an aircraft. A human operator works regardless of power loss or software issues. Regarding Air Traffic Service, remember that pilots have always done their own metering. That's what VFR flying is. That's what oceanic crossings are. In the military, we do large scale, complex operations with no radio contact or controllers. It's all done via prescripted procedural separation. Controllers are a liability at this point.
@@jakes_on_a_planeOf course. It's already done in many places. And even if it weren't, it's something that could plausibly be done algorithmic ally with no real complications.
SFO continuing to provide most of the content for this channel 😂😂😂
When I was a student pilot, an ATC instructed me to taxi to a taxiway blocked by an A320, I refused and told the ATC that it's blocked, then the ATC didn't call me, then when the A320 taxied forward enough for me to go to that taxiway, he called me back and said, "You're cleared of the Airbus" then proceeded to give me that taxi instructions. That's it.
Man San Francisco ATC is so toxic 😂
Friendliest SFO interaction ive heard
Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.
5 years experience as a commercial pilot here. I understand I’m not an airline pilot and am not trying to be, but I feel like I have grounds to chime in. If a controller talked to me like this, I would just file a report and STFU. It’s not worth going through the hassle of being dealt a phone number and clogging up the freq. I promise it’s not worth it and looks extremely unprofessional on both ends.
I think what happened here was a misunderstanding of the phrase “it’s blocked”.
When the jet blue was told “continue to gate” he replied “it’s blocked”. He was referring to the gate, but I think the controller thought he meant the last communication was blocked. So the controller simply repeated the last instruction “continue to gate”. To the JetBlue pilot though, this now sounds like he is being told again to continue to a blocked gate. So obviously he gets a bit annoyed because it sounds like the controller is being condescending.
I get why the pilot was annoyed. He was standing there for a long time. But I think the controller takes bigger blame here. His comments were unnecessary
no
no.
The pilot was pretty clear around 3:30 what the problem was
How has this comment already gotten close to 100 likes? Definitely not what happened.
No. Keep in mind that the actual communication between ATC and the pilot is crystal clear (absent another plane talking at the same time which did not happen here). What we are hearing is way worse.
Normally i'm on the pilots side. But here (Given the information provided) the "continue to the gate" clearance is completely valid. In the same way as a clearance to "Taxi to runway 1R via Alpha" if there's an aircraft in front of you on A do you just plow into the tail or do you use your ability as a pilot to continue as with your clearance as your able to? This whole thing could have just been avoided with a "Roger continue to the gate" or a more proper phrase from the controller "Continue to the Gate AS ABLE". Sometimes we pilots and controllers can make things a huge issue over absolutely nothing.
"As able" would have been a complete and viable instruction.
Pin this comment
Common sense does not apply to aviation or anything legal. He was given a collision course clearance. You either control or you don't. There's no halfway. That's why there are hold short clearances. You can't just give a taxi instruction and expect hold shorts at some nebulous point. It's that simple. All you guys that don't know aviation legalisms are using layman thinking.
Then according to your logic, any ATC can give any aircraft in the queue clearance to take off or line up even though there are preceding aircraft in front of you (all you have to do is follow the preceding aircraft? Right?), so why don’t they? Because it is not safe.
Yes being on the ground frequencies, the risk of collisions is low, because it is unlikely the pilot will drive his airplane into the tail of the other aircraft… but that doesn’t mean the ATC instructions has to be so poor. Way too often in the US, like SFO or JFK, taxi to the alleyway or taxi to the ramp… that’s just poor instructions… even the whole make a 180 degree turn instructions is poor… specified which taxiway do you want the aircraft to make the 180… stop being so lazy / sloppy as an ATC.
@@wowpeterYou are absolutely right. This is controller operational complacency at its finest. These public servants can't have it both ways.
SFO has the worst ATC of any airport in my opinion. Why give a clearance to proceed to a gate that's blocked? This is a serious issue.
It's not a serious issue at all it would only be an issue if the other plane was pointing the other way, taxi clearances are given to follow behind other aircraft all the time it's up to the PIC to leave the required space between the aircraft to carry out their movement
It seems like the JetBlue crew wasn’t following what was happening over the radios. If he had been paying attention, he would have heard his company aircraft receive their taxi instructions to go somewhere to do their crossbleed start. If he understood that part, “continue to the gate” would be easily understood. So what we have here is low situational awareness and an attitude to go with it…
Follow atc exact instructions at all times. We don't make our own inferences and then act on those inferences. Basic stuff.
@@JonDoe-007you’re allowed to use your brain sometimes.
So the controller's instructions were clear as mud and delivered with an attitude, and the JBU pilot responded with excessive snark. There's not really blame to be assigned here because the only things hurt were egos, but if the controller had just said something like, "Cleared to continue to gate B8 *when able*," there's no reason to waste everyone's time calling the tower.
or "at pilot's discretion"
The controller's instructions were not clear as they gave an instruction that could not be executed when the instruction was given. The rule for pilots is to never assume anything. If the instruction is not clear or doesn't make sense, it should be questioned.
ATC controllers at SFO should get a lesson from ATC from TPA or MCO. One of the most courteous controllers you'll ever find. Maybe Miami too.
Problem here is that ATC knows that the plane blocking the gate is JBU434, and he just instructed them to move, but the pilot does not. So he cannot make assumptions from the preceding conversation.
I give this one to Jet Blue. All ground had to say was the gate would be open in a few seconds. Technically if Jet Blue followed ground instructions to the letter he would have crashed into the plane that was occupying the gate that ground told him to go to.
There's a principle from quantum mechanics called the Pauli Exclusion principle. It states that "two or more identical particles with half-integer spins (i.e. fermions) cannot simultaneously occupy the same quantum state within a system which obeys the laws of quantum mechanics."
This appears to be an extension of that principle. I'll paraphrase as best I can. Two airplanes can't simultaneously occupy the same gate.
Perhaps the controller could benefit from a few Physical Chemistry lessons or a few minutes in time out.
I am with the ATC on this one.
Have some common sense, Jetblue! As an airline pilot, these guys, even at shitty JetBlue are making $3 bucks a minute, minimum. Waiting for a gate isn’t stressful. It’s profitable. They should be all smiles. To play dumb with ground after their stupid company clogged up the whole operation is absolutely moronic..but I guess this is the only kind of people that jetblue can attract these days.
Let’s get ready to rumbleeeee
Interesting situation here. Escalated because of both parts.
Probably a tired flight crew after the flight, waiting a long time to get to the gate and finally shutdown and a busy controller, everyone wanted to get done with each other quickly.
Normally I'm on the sides of pilots, but in this case he was in the wrong. "Continue to the gate" is an industry accepted and understood clearance that you can continue taxiing to your gate and can turn into it when it's safe to do so. It's exactly the same thing as continue taxi to the runway after a hold short instruction. You continue in line.
You can tell in the comments who is a pilot and who plays too much flight simulator and thinks they're a real pilot.
I think that 2436 should be mad at 434 for blocking the gate while already having a clearance to taxi..ATC has no fault for that..
From a controller, pilot was being a little dense. He has permission to continue. We’re not saying he has to get to the gate that very second. I guess he was looking for something along the lines of “when able”
I saw SFO and thought “here we go again” with another controller issue. However, the controller did great and for some reason the JetBlue captain felt the need to get snarky over instructions that were told every day. “Continue to the gate” does not mean taxi and park the aircraft immediately. It’s just a clearance to continue your taxi to the gate and park once the area is clear. He heard company ahead of him get clearance to taxi out, he knows their taxiing on #2 instead of #1 because they’ll have to cross bleed so they’re going slow. What’s the rush? This seemed like he was frustrated about having to wait for the gate to open (most likely had to due with having to start a motor at the gate) and decided to take it out on a controller who had done nothing wrong and was only trying to be helpful. The captain needlessly became argumentative and unprofessional to the controller. The cherry on top was him calling the controller unprofessional. That’s rich.
Exactly, a little situational awareness and this wouldn’t happen. Of course the airplane that just pushed back is going to be moving soon captain idiot. Taxi when he is clear.
The pilot did the right thing. The controller was causing a safety problem using lose language and making implications rather than giving legally explicit instructions. Controllers these days are lazy and dangerous.
@@AquariusTurtle nope. None of that clearance was incorrect or non standard.
@@SidestickPilotFind a legal document proving that was approved phraseology. If the gate was occupied, he should have been given a hold short clearance. End of story. It's no different than giving two pilots takeoff clearance simultaneously for the same runway. Controllers are often ignorant of the legalisms. They only know on the job shortcuts and localisms. These are third tier public servants.
@@AquariusTurtle plain language is allowed per the .65
If the JetBlue pilot wanted to be the controller he should’ve applied for the FAA. The controller is extremely busy… when an aircraft calls ready to taxi, they are supposed to be READY TO TAXI. So from the controller’s perspective, he gave a taxi clearance to an aircraft that was ready to move and then issued taxi to the gate that was presumed to be vacated any second. There is no need for the pilot to start being unprofessional. Also for the people that think ATC should’ve given “updates” about the gate, the gate is being occupied by the another JetBlue aircraft. I’m sure the pilots were getting updates from their own company…
I knew what atc was trying to say. Yeah he could have worded it differently, but he expected a bit of common sense from the pilot. No shit there's a plane there, he just got a taxi clearance and is about to move. That pilot wasn't listening to any other transmissions and unnecessarily escalated the situation.
Yup 👍
I just watched the United 1390 2 go-around video. This shows how dis functional the airport is
A pilot should always go with safety and it’s their duty to do so. If a controller is feeling him to taxi to a gate that’s blocked, it’s not safe. Controller is out of line here and should be the one “calling a number”. He put 2 planes at risk with his directions. A report should be filed for this guys record.
What safety issue ?! He can SEE that there's an aircraft in the distance, can't he just use his brain for a minute and realize that it has just been given a taxi clearance and is about to move ? Does the clearance mean "Just go through them LOL" ?
Does ATC also has to remind him to remove his parking brake before moving ?
What safety issue? The other JB was cleared to taxi and do a crossbleed start. The waiting JB was then told to taxi to their gate and then got snippy because the proceeding airplane hadn't moved yet.
Can’t we all just get along!?
The immortal words of King (Rodney, not Martin).
Best part was the pilot sarcastically telling ATC he seems really busy🤣🤣
ATC "Jetblue cleared to land runway 1R"
Pilot "I cant, there is an aircraft on the runway"
ATC "is it blocked now?"
Pilot "it was when you cleared me"
LOL
The atc was the one giving the passive agressive "do you want to stay there all day?"
Yea, I'm with the pilot on this one.
This isn't a big deal at all. Just a little sass from both sides. The pilot is probably stressed because he knows he has impatient passengers and ATC has been dealing with congested ground all day. I'd assume they had a respectful call once they both had their jobs done.
Not a big deal but definitely an unpleasant exchange there with some rude comments when a simple "when able", "when it's clear", "when Jetblue moves" would have solved it. They were both stressed, that's for sure. SFO Ground must not be an easy position to handle.
But what about the passengers waiting 8 or more minutes AFTER B8 vacated? Or am I misreading the animation and time clock? That's fairly brutal when you've already landed long, long ago.
The JBU from B7 was already pushing back @@Bill_Woo
@@Bill_Woo Its not that serious. You think 8 mins is brutal lol. Try flying into some bigger airports. They had to wait roughly 20 mins which isnt long considering that their company had to push off the gate. Flying into DEN is a 20 min taxi just to even get near the gate. ORD if your gate is occupied they will take you on a loop around the airport till your gate opens up and the alley is clear, which can take 30 mins depending on several factors. Plus, you have got to look at it like this. The pilot probably arrived early and their company wasnt prepared for that. Hence why the gate was still occupied.
@@VASAviationI definitely agree it could have been resolved much nicer.
Let's get it on!! 🔔
SFO controllers are working hard to be WORSE than JFK controllers!
Doesn't help when you have crappy pilots who remain situationally unaware of their environments in a busy airspace.
As an airline pilot, I have to say that the dude in the jetblue was being a little baby. Granted both of them each escalated the situation, but if you are just sitting on a taxiway waiting on your gate, your situational awareness for what is going on up ahead should of been high. The "I can't, it is blocked" could of just been followed up by "confirm company traffic ahead is commencing taxi". Instead, captain happy here has to have his little hissy fit.
The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.
The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.
The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.
The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.
The uploader mentioned there was some background interference so it's possible that the pilot didn't realize the gate was about to get freed up. The pilot for sure threw a fit but the controller could have easily avoided it.
JetBlue didn't really activly monitor and missed that the other jetblue got a taxi clearance and then got cocky. once they realized that they all of a sudden were really defensive on the phone number...
controller really should've de-escelated the situation by just mentioning that the other jetblue would be moving shortly...
I mean, the pilots were holding being shuffled around for a long time, so I understand their aggravation but at the same time, Ground is juggling a lot. However, Ground was the one out of line with that remark and could have just said something simply like "the guy at B8 is going to be moving in just a minute, start moving toward B8".
I give the controller 100% of the blame not allowing jb to move when gate was originally clear when southwest pushed back
their gate was B8, which was blocked all the time
you realize this video is NOT an accurate account to the second of what was going on. And if JBU would have actually listened he would of heard his company calling for taxi and then the controller giving them taxi instructions. Pretty positive if he was also looking out his window he would have seen the ground crew walking away back to the gate. JBU whole "your messing up ground" wasn't necessary. There's always that one pilot who thinks they are the only ones that exist.
In this case there is an accounting of time. Took almost 30 minutes to get to his gate.
@@sncy5303the gate was blocked the entire time until their company pushed and required a crossbleed start. That’s not the controllers fault.
So at 2:16 the gate opened, but the other jetblue was pushed from B7 first which blocked the gate as jetblue said
In this case, the JetBlue crew was getting impatient and testy. The controller could have added that the other Jetblue was expected to clear the area shortly, but I don't think this was such a big deal.
true but they were waiting for like 30 minutes
@@emartinez2740 Totally fair, but let's also admit that's also less than professional. I think we can chalk this up to a loss of patience, and I hope professional pilots can strive for something better. Not that this was the worst case, but just on principle.
@@emartinez2740 That's not ATC's fault. Blame the company for taking long to push their own airplane.
How come everybody is so packed around B8-9 and not using all those other free gates?
"Tower, let me know when you're ready for a number, possible ATC deviation"
Pilots argument was irrelevant unless the other plane was pointed odo. When given a clearance somewhere and you’re behind a plane you obviously continue when you’re able.
That's what I'm saying. The snark from the pilot was unwarranted.
The fact that it takes 30 minutes to park an airplane is reason number infinity+1 why I have no interest in ever setting foot in that city. Congestion is the root cause of this entire argument anyway. Pilot annoyed about the wait, and ground stressed from not having enough space to put planes.
Silly comment. Using a single Vasa clip help justify not visiting a city. lol.
Who would want to go to that Liberal Azz city anyways unless your WOKE as HELL...
The delay had nothing to do with ATC and everything to do with Jetblue. The jet that the crew were waiting on was delayed and required a high pressure air cart to start an engine at the gate most likely due to the APU being inoperative. In no way does the controller have any control over when that jet is gonna push. So to try and blame ATC for that is just not understanding how this actually works.
"That city"? My observation is that excessive parking delays are rare at SFO. The whole world is congested unless you live in the middle of nowhere. You can't just stay home.
@@wkelly3053a few other cities have decent public transportation
I have no opinion. I just like listening to this world I never thought about before.
Definitely ATC’s fault in this one.
The snarky comment from the controller was uncalled for.
Honestly any professional pilot should understand this clearance as “when able.” Yeah the controller had a smart ass response but honestly this pilot never needed to be so heated. Use your brain. I’ve flown with these types of captains before and it’s embarrassing as the FO.
JetBlue is treated like a red headed stepchild and I’m here for it.
Sounds like a typical smarmy SF resident.
I think the pilot was following instructions and indicating when they could not. The Ground Controller didn't seem to add any clarity as to what he wanted. He now obviously was wanting him to just start heading to the gate as far as he could as he was blocking the intersection . Instead they both got annoyed, short, and vindictive towards each other. However the pilot i think made the right call to not move until he believe it was safe to do so.
Secondary note to my original comment. If a controller issues a taxi clearance to "Taxi to runway 1R using taxiway L L1 A B", that doesn't mean you cross the hold short lines ONTO the runway. You as the pilot KNOW you need a further clearance and what your clearance limit is. Also saying "blocked" on frequency will ALWAYS get a repeat of the last instructions because the transmission might have been blocked. So the controller might have assumed their transmission was blocked and repeated the clearance.
This situation doesn't change. "Taxi to gate B8", the clearance limit is gate B8. The fact there's an airplane in front of it is irrelevant, taxi up to the gate and await further instructions if needed. Both parties screwed up by both being unprofessional on frequency, but the JetBlue airplane in question was being obtuse for no reason. Do they need to be told to set the parking brake when they get to their gate? Obviously there's an airplane in front of them, they should've just saw the thing push back, so clearly it's going to be moving, not to mention, if the crew was being situationally aware, they would've known that airplane just pushed back, got a taxi clearance and a crossbleed start clearance...
Ground advise ready when able to copy number for possible deviation
Ooooh, I wish I could've heard that phone call
I'm an A&P and in this case I think the pilots were the ones in the wrong. When told to CONTINUE that means you are cleared to keep moving towards your objective. It doesn't mean you can't stop if you have to. I think the prima donna in the cockpit got his panties in a wad. The instruction to continue was very clear.
Lots of new people working these days. If I had to guess I’m guessing the JetBlue pilot was the new one in this case.
There are two pilots in the cockpit, including one Captain with thousands of hours I assume
@@VASAviation true. What’s your point? The FO is typically handling the radio on the ground. I can’t control every word that comes out of their mouth. I’ve been embarrassed many times but new FOs that say dumb things.
It's pretty obvious that the one talking at the end of the video is the Captain
@@VASAviation meh. The JB guy could have kept it cool. He did not. No matter which seat it was.
Ok, what should be:
- The gate B8 is blocked by the plane now
- Continue to the gate B8 clearence when able, the plane is going away soon. Sorry for the delays. Have a good day.
- Ok, proceeding to the gate B8. Good day.
To be fair Jetblue brought that on themselves lmao. Ground gave the company taxi instructions (meaning they’d get rolling away from B8 soon) and basically told them to Follow behind their company thats vacating their gate lol. Maybe some miscommunication of obvious statements…
The pilot is completely in the wrong. Ground gave him a clearance to go to the gate. That doesn't mean ram another airplane, it means that you are cleared to taxi to the gate when able. If you have to wait for the other airplane to move first, fine. But you're still have the desired clearance to taxi to the destination. If Jetblue had to wait 30 seconds before moving, that's fine, the controller's clearance is still valid. Controller was honestly 100% in line, the pilot was being hissy. Most of these comments in here berating the controller probably don't actually fly airplanes. sad for them
Controller could have easily defused the entire situation at any time by providing clearer instructions. Pilot simply informed ATC that the gate was blocked, to which he could have responded "roger, continue to B9 and proceed to your gate when able" but instead chose to give attitude right back. Unprofessional on both sides but more so to the controller.
Yup. You can tell who is a professional aviator and who isn't. It always seems that people want to dismiss the bad actions of the pilot to berate the controller, when in reality, it was the pilot that made the mistake and caused more of an issue than there actually was.
@@Dismay992 The pilot made the initial call saying "it's blocked" without any context. Just listening, saying "blocked" on frequency can be miscommunicated as a blocked transmission, so the controller repeated their last statement. The JB airplane then got pissy again. The controller is confused because it's implied, WHEN ABLE continue to your gate. Obviously they can't ram into the airplane that just pushed off of their gate... The gate they were waiting for.
The pilots made a bigger deal out of nothing.
As pilots you have to be able to read between the lines sometimes and use situational awareness when it comes to ATC clearances. The reason the pilot responded the way he did was because of ATC’s previous comment “no it will be blocked” which then fueled the fire. The jet blue pilot should’ve paid attention to the aircraft needing a cross bleed start requesting and receiving clearance to taxi at that point ATC is expecting that aircraft to be in motion which in turn unblocks that gate so once ATC gave the clearance to continue to the gate it’s up to the pilots now to not deliberately run into the back of an aircraft. If the aircraft doesn’t move from that position as you approach the gate then you can quarry ATC as to whether or not the aircraft is moving. In a situation like that though you can proceed closer to the gate and park abeam gate B9 and wait for that aircraft to be out of the way. I understand the pilot’s frustration with waiting to get to gate. I waited 30 minutes the other day to get to gate in SEA with Delta infront with maintenance issues but you have to be patient and not get hot headed because someone stepped on your toes or it’s not going the way you hoped it would.
The whole point of ATC and readbacks from the pilot is to avoid "reading between the lines". If one must do that, someone is screwing up.
the controller definitely is out of line.
Aaaand once again SFO..
Lufthansa, Jet Blue and so on ..
I can see the pilot's frustration, but it should be with their company for assigning them an occupied gate.
It was clear that JBU 434 was on the move from B8, and JBU 2436 was free to start their taxi to the gate now.
They were on the ground in good visibility, hardly a 'safety' issue.
Definitely agree with you. Both were a bit unprofessional, but with a little awareness the pilots would have known that the aircraft in front was cleared to taxi and would be on the move shortly.
Assigning an occupied gate is very common in busy airports. Time spaces are so tight. Go fly into JFK and tell me.
@@VASAviation You have that right! I was based at JFK with two different airlines.
Yep both sides blew this up... ATC could have chilled out and just added a couple words to clarify that the lead aircraft was leaving. Also should have been obvious to the pilots that the plane was leaving since they knew it was their gate and were given an estimate from company. Pilots seriously overreacted, ground doesn't control the gates and can't help how long it takes for planes to push back.
This.
You understood all situation in your mouth. When in command of a passenger plane and have responsibilities, you don't act on estimates from company, or on hoping that by the time you get to the gate, the other aircraft has left. You act according to rules and safety measures and move to that gate when you have a positive confirmation the other plane has left. This is not like bumper to bumper car traffic. ATC proved he was behind the situation, by instructing the jet blue to park behind the southwest plane which was about to push back, just to make him do circles on taxiway. Then told the pilot to move to a gate which was not cleared yet. All these things prove he was "full" of professionalism, which started to overflow, when made sarcastic/idiotic statements on radio. Probably a cold shower called reprimand, would put this ATC, back with both feet on the ground and lower his nose from stratosphere.
@@1zanglang yikes.
This is how guys normally talk to each other in San Francisco. I see nothing remarkable here.
"Gate when able" would have cleared up the confusion right away.
I hate SFO and these videos just confirm it
A completely unprofessional controller. For one the JetBlue is made to wait and then the clearance is “continue to the gate”. Pilot replies “I can’t it’s blocked” asks the controller replies “Continue to the gate”. If he had just instructed the second time, “After gate is clear, continue to the gate” everything would be clear and his ego wouldn’t be deflated. He deserves it.
You don't think the plane at the gate was about to move and the controller didn't know that? What if everyone questions everything?
You don’t understand the situation or the clearance then. The occupied gate is not the controllers fault. Why are you trying to blame the controller for an occupied gate? The clearance given is perfectly legal and valid. The captain was just taking the piss. He’s the one who was acting unprofessional. The controller stayed professional the entire time.
Ok let’s put the same situation but change the location. When there is a departure que with aircraft waiting t the end of the runway block the full path to the runway, should the ground controller state “After the taxiway is clear, 1R taxi via…” in every single taxi clearance to said runways? No. You give the taxi instruction and the expectation is that you stop behind traffic you are following, and you continue when they continue. Ground does not need to micromanage the conga line of aircraft. Just because we have replaced the runway with the gate does not change how the instructions work. I am sure these JBU pilots have a wealth of experience under their belt to have made it to the position they are in. They should by now understand how taxi instructions work and that the clearance allows you to move when the guy infront moves.
@@SidestickPilotIt is the controller's fault. The ramp there is controlled by ground control. Pilots can't do anything there without controller negotiation. Get educated first, then make remarks.
@@AquariusTurtle ATP, former captain at a regional, 4.5k TT, 4 type ratings. 100’s of flights in and out of SFO. Again, the clearance was perfectly legal. “JetBlue xxxx taxi/continue to the gate. The controller cannot control when an aircraft is ready to push. The delay was due to company at the gate not the controllers fault. Please if you actually what you’re talking about even though it’s clear you don’t explain to me what about the clearance was illegal.
Aaaand this is why I fly out of San Jose and not San Francisco. Airport and ATC a hot mess there. Worse if there's fog or rain. Smh.
I think Jetblue started that fire, ATC brought some wood though with the "you want to hold here all day"? But Being Newark based, holding 30+ minutes for a gate is frequent enough, you ll see lots of open gates, but no crew to work them... if the plane at your gate is set to depart 10minutes prior to your scheduled arrival ops most likely won't do a thing unless it's more than 20minutes and we ask nicely for it.
Now Jetblue could have simply asked if that traffic was gonna clear, ATC could have clarified, "when able, taxi to your gate" etc etc... Sad to see and hear this stuff.