Identity Politics is Narcissism - author Joanna Williams at the Battle of Ideas

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ธ.ค. 2024
  • Joanna Williams is author of "Academic Freedom in an Age of Conformity: Confronting the Fear of Knowledge" and "Consuming Higher Education: Why Learning Can't Be Bought", and other books. She is also Director of the Centre for the Study of Higher Education at the University of Kent, UK and Education Editor for Spiked Online.
    This video is an edited excerpt of the panel discussion "The personal is political: is identity politics eating itself?", which took place 18 October, 2015. You can watch the full video here: • The personal is politi...

ความคิดเห็น • 507

  • @sbrown6434
    @sbrown6434 6 ปีที่แล้ว +154

    That woman has a well-formed argument and delivers it like a Gatling gun. I love her!

  • @paulvsmith
    @paulvsmith 8 ปีที่แล้ว +102

    Always like listening to Joanna Williams - better in real life than on the page. I get the feeling that with identity politics there's a divide and conquer at work, that diverts us from the real business of politics.

    • @rowsdower12
      @rowsdower12 8 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      paulvsmith exactly! spot on. the media does it. it's profiteering by division.

    • @persephonel2117
      @persephonel2117 8 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      +paulvsmith
      I actually think it's being pushed from the top down to undermine democracy and ensure that it won't function.
      Cultural Marxism, social justice, critical theory is not designed to push society forward, I think we can all see by now they are designed to make society unable to function.
      Either it will reach a breaking point or it will destruct our society little by little, either way it will achieve the same ends. A giant state that will have to come in to save the day by claiming more powers for itself and taking away our freedoms to ensure "safety" and "stability".
      The police state will continue to grow and they will become more and more militarized and government will clamp down more and more as chaos grows.

    • @xanderpayne4825
      @xanderpayne4825 8 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      +paulvsmith The business of politics is to hide the truth, and distract people from learning about the truth, while feeding those searching for it false truth, in order to control their minds.
      I have nothing but contempt for politics, or the "business" of politics.

    • @rowsdower12
      @rowsdower12 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      Xander Payne well said. I agree

    • @xanderpayne4825
      @xanderpayne4825 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      Zap Rowsdower212
      Thank you.

  • @lm3729
    @lm3729 4 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    Thank you! Narcissism- I’ve been saying this for awhile. I’m so glad someone else sees it and that I’m not going crazy.

  • @youraccount7003
    @youraccount7003 4 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    This lady absolutely nails it. Very astute and rips the credibility of identity politics to shreds. Great analysis of the workings and failings of identity politics. Pure gold.
    This needs to go viral. She's brilliant!

  • @Freeskier475
    @Freeskier475 8 ปีที่แล้ว +141

    A breath of fresh air. This is great

    • @CHRISDABAHIA
      @CHRISDABAHIA 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Freeskier475 Doesn’t pull any punches, does she?!

    • @RedFlagSaid
      @RedFlagSaid 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yeah...Finally!

    • @gwho
      @gwho 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      this breath of fresh air used to be commonplace.
      wokeness is suffocating everyone's mind.

  • @NathanReacts89
    @NathanReacts89 7 ปีที่แล้ว +59

    "When a wise man points to the moon, the imbecile examines the finger"

  • @muddywitch9016
    @muddywitch9016 8 ปีที่แล้ว +104

    Could not agree more with what this intelligent English woman says!!

    • @llIIIIlllIIIllI
      @llIIIIlllIIIllI 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      how she can call the men's response to feminism "worse" i don't understand.

    • @NatasjavanDijknah
      @NatasjavanDijknah 8 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      Because it's just more identity politics?

    • @Conn30Mtenor
      @Conn30Mtenor 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Identifying her as "an intelligent English woman" is an example of identity politics.

    • @gwho
      @gwho 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@llIIIIlllIIIllI not men, MRA. Still, MRA is not worse. my god.

    • @gwho
      @gwho 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@NatasjavanDijknah then 1st wave feminism is also identity politics. so no.

  • @lindamccloud-bondoc963
    @lindamccloud-bondoc963 8 ปีที่แล้ว +70

    This is one of the more balanced and intelligent reponses I've heard on this subject.

    • @kayleegregory770
      @kayleegregory770 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Calling Out Fascists Online I'd like to know more. I too call out the trash of this sad society.

  • @svenofthejungle
    @svenofthejungle 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Holy crap. Ms. Williams just articulated in less than ten minutes what I've been trying to find word s for since at least 2015. Finally, the TH-cam algorithm hits a home run!

  • @havock89
    @havock89 8 ปีที่แล้ว +53

    Joanna Williams is a very smart lady. I like her.

  • @bjrnhagen4484
    @bjrnhagen4484 8 ปีที่แล้ว +298

    “Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.” Identity Politics belongs to the latter category

    • @leo333333able
      @leo333333able 8 ปีที่แล้ว +25

      Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss feelings.

    • @omg_look_behind_you
      @omg_look_behind_you 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Bjørn Hagen
      Strong minds rarely post youtube comments. Weak minds keep threads alive until eventually losing to Godwin's Law. No irony lost here, btw, but there wasn't really any to lose. I know I'm a weak and petty person, but the lack of humility and empathy online is the social equivalent of Thermal Death and terrifies me just as much.
      This is not an attack aimed towards anyone - only something I've wanted to say but never saw an opening for. Good quote, though.

    • @rawloverawlight5067
      @rawloverawlight5067 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      yes! well said!

    • @xanderpayne4825
      @xanderpayne4825 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      +Bjorn Hagen Discussion of everything is a better idea than trying to label certain people and their "minds" in an attempt to get them to discuss what you want, instead of what you don't want. After all, we wouldn't want the "people" in charge to be discussed, now would we?
      Strong minds discuss everything, average minds discuss only what's popular, weak minds discuss what they are told to discuss, or they don't discuss at all.

    • @xanderpayne4825
      @xanderpayne4825 8 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Rachel Wood
      There's a co-worker of mine who quoted this crap after he overheard me discussing something he said with another co-worker, which apparently pissed him off.
      The thing that he said, was that he thought the only reason a black woman won the Miss America Pageant (Universe? You know I don't remember the specific pageant, but it doesn't really matter) was because the judges were afraid of offending the black community. This was within the last year. What struck me as odd was that he said the only reason he was watching it was because his girlfriend wanted to watch it.
      If his girlfriend wanted to watch it, and he didn't, why does he care one way or the other who wins? Unless it had more to do with the fact that it was a black woman, which says a lot about his views, doesn't it?
      Anyway so I thought he was out of earshot when I started talking to someone in my department about it, was apparently wrong, and he came storming back to my window, and said the aforementioned quote above to me and stormed away before I could reply to it. I was confused, because I didn't understand the quote itself (because it's pure bullshit), I didn't understand how it pertained to what I was talking about (especially since you could argue that all three of the things mentioned in the quote were being discussed), and I certainly didn't understand how it would sort of let him off the hook, since he was expressing his idea, talking about an event, and complaining about the people involved.
      In short, some a**hole came up with it trying to sound smart, but actually didn't have a clue as to what he was really talking about.

  • @dewiowen3010
    @dewiowen3010 5 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    We need more women like Joanna Williams who can think objectively, intelligently and who are not emotionally narcissistic.

  • @josephvictory9536
    @josephvictory9536 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    "The culture of narcissism is shaped by the collapse of public and private" What brilliant foreshadowing words.
    I agree, narcissism is a kind of defensively high self esteem in the psychological literature. It is not insecure in as much as it is falsely secure, self absorbed and reactive. The private life is a domain where we allow uncertainty and do not have to defend our motives or intentions or create a particularily appealing presentation to anyone or on anything. This privacy is a kind of freedom which allows us to explore and find a secure sense of identity. I am sure most of us have done something shameful in our life and are glad that no one can see it because it does not represent who we are.
    When you take that private space away, you force people to defend themselves and evaluate themselves even when they have a very poor understanding of who they are.
    While it does not instantly lead to narcissism (in fact, it can lead to radical humility, guilt, paranoia or radically strong personalities as well) by ramping up the uncertainty you create the ideal environment for a sort of politics of narcissism since the self by virtue of becoming overly social has to protect itself with politics which leads to the exact kinds of psychological behavior we observe in narcissists.

  • @benmartin4540
    @benmartin4540 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    ‘Disjunction between ideas and reality.’ Very succinct. Incredible.

  • @barrettbilali9727
    @barrettbilali9727 8 ปีที่แล้ว +79

    So beautifully said. Thank you. I can't wait until the end of narcissism!!

    • @RedFlagSaid
      @RedFlagSaid 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      well, no one likes a full blown narcissist but I myself could live with them in peace if only they CHANGED THEIR FORM from this neoliberal hell on wheels version to something a bit more eusocial.

    • @BrionyDavid
      @BrionyDavid 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Me, Me, Me too!

    • @redpillraven4850
      @redpillraven4850 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Me too! It's extreme Narcissism. Lucifer was the original narcissist too

    • @redpillraven4850
      @redpillraven4850 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@RedFlagSaid narcissistic people are dangerous! It's more than being obsessed with self. They love character assassination, gaslighting, and devise dark plans and don't stop. Very self. They rank just below the sociopathic and psychopathic

    • @RedFlagSaid
      @RedFlagSaid 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Then "off with their heads".

  • @davidshepherd397
    @davidshepherd397 6 ปีที่แล้ว +19

    Identity politics cheapens the individual. We are each of us so much more than our colour, our gender, political slant, our spiritual awareness, our religion. It would also suggest that each person is the poster boy/girl for the group in which they identify at that moment, and that is ridiculous. No one person represents the entire group, as each identified group is more diverse than the whole of society.

    • @smokexsmoke99
      @smokexsmoke99 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Transgenderism happens in utero. The brain and body develop separately, and the brain is triggered to take on a male or female structure by the presence or absence of a surge of testosterone. TG is the result of a misfire, resulting in a male-structured brain in a female body, or vice versa. This can be verified on MRI. So it makes perfect sense that TG patients would start showing symptoms around the time they begin to understand concepts of self and gender.
      I'd say body/genitals define your sex, and your brain defines your gender.

    • @teamtundra2619
      @teamtundra2619 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      No one has said anyone is solely that

  • @Reapwhatsown
    @Reapwhatsown 8 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Yes, more of this in the world already. Very thankful for her.

  • @blues_guitar_string3733
    @blues_guitar_string3733 7 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Joanna Williams is brilliant, one of my new intellectual heroes. Her claim that identity politics is in fact really just narcissism is spot on. I wish this idea would gain purchase in the western culture.

  • @noone8418
    @noone8418 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    “The personal is political”. Thinking on this phrase, it’s either making your personal problems everyone else’s or that somehow the community at large is responsible for your personal problems.

  • @life4fireforever273
    @life4fireforever273 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    When I learned in school about sexual assault and rape we were taught about Consent as a male and that I also had the right to say no
    The lessons we were taught about rape and its effects HAUNTED us as 13 and 14 year olds
    That was all we needed to be taught along with how to deal and whom to talk to

  • @stevehenton3213
    @stevehenton3213 8 ปีที่แล้ว +31

    An intelligent, clear and insightful analysis, bravo.

    • @williamr.lacerda8848
      @williamr.lacerda8848 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      She has such an enrapturing bewildering graciously intelligent fluent way to clear up and sort out logical philosophical truths or pragmatic political insights and to detach them off ideological sophisms thereof when describing their inherent dissonant ideological uselessness or excesses disguised as "frontierless raveling self-maniac bitter politics" and hyper-narcissistic intelligentsia that makes me revere her feminine intellectual attributes spontaneously with a grateful and free recognition of her superior talents such as which should serve as a reference for any woman aiming to become a feminist with distinctly precious intellectual charism and acumen as those of misters Joanna Williams. To my great chagrin and nostalgia, I must confess that I was already beginning to forget that these types of genuine women do exist as an academic minority of excellency's regalia or as a subavarage rarest feminine jewel of wisdom's ear outside the transmediatic masses of alienation's domain.
      Much obliged and enchanted indeed!

    • @williamr.lacerda8848
      @williamr.lacerda8848 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Your ludically composed symbol is expected to represent a more mature development of ideas. Your speculative egocentrically rhetoric sentence ( echoingly, "shut up, i dont want to hear about your issues" as if I were the unwanted proportionally antithetic 'undue', if so, resistance to your imposition over my moral values by seeking the anullment of my otherness in detriment of my levinasian face's right so that you can egotistically validate your morally diffuse and erratic cause with an immature claim in the pragmatical interchangeable position of a victimhood for the confirmation of your pope-like or pope-friendly greed for self-centeredness through this easy rewards certainly garanteed by a pseudo-religious populism ) shows that you are a narcissist awaiting easy returns of pragmatic recognition in the same childish philosophical level as that of the populist pope. It was not as profound as you think, but I am sure that the feeling that intermediatic opinion polls blindly reflecting your internarcissistic ideas empower your pseudo-philosophical claim of unconditional and generalized victimhood.

  • @AftabMAslam
    @AftabMAslam 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is the first time I'm slowing the video to listen to her. She is very intelligent and sharp, hence the speed in her speech.

  • @blahblahoink
    @blahblahoink 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Look at what we've got in common rather than what divides and separates us......great stuff Joanna Williams

  • @luckduck5961
    @luckduck5961 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    So glad I watched this! She's a brilliant person.

  • @Martin-jd3oc
    @Martin-jd3oc ปีที่แล้ว +1

    We need this woman much more visible in the public debate.

  • @koukicrisp
    @koukicrisp 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Another discussion to have if we are "against" or counter arguing the idea of identity politics and want to accept an idea of universalism, is "what is the difference between universalism and cultural-assimilation". What is the culture that we would all homogenize into, the status quo. Which is the definition of imperialism and colonization. The very idea of universalism leads down a very dark path which has been seen before. The idea of accepting differences and identity politics to me is far better than assimilation and ethno-cleansing, which has been a byproduct of the idea of universalism.

  • @skibum6422
    @skibum6422 7 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    What an incredibly smart person. I too feel like narcissism is a huge problem today. I think Facebook and social media has made it an epidemic. Everyone has to post a selfie of everything they do. It has gotten so grossly out of hand.

    • @mariposa9506
      @mariposa9506 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @ctguitarguy incel

    • @svenofthejungle
      @svenofthejungle 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@mariposa9506 Thank you for proving OP's point.

    • @gwho
      @gwho 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      that's not necessarily narcissism.

  • @ffsf739
    @ffsf739 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'm in love with this woman. Every word that comes out of her mouth is perfection!

  • @marsnr1
    @marsnr1 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I love Joanna WIlliams, such a smart, great woman!

  • @blues_guitar_string3733
    @blues_guitar_string3733 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    This woman (Joanna Williams) is brilliant. Why isn't she better known? It is such a pleasure to see rational arguments for a change, and not just people whining about what victims they are because of their group identity.
    I plan to look for her books that are cited in the video description.

  • @pebblepod30
    @pebblepod30 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I've never heard of Joanna Williams, but I'm glad I do now!
    "The personal is political" is only about what TRIGGERS A PERSON (inc me). It is not part of becoming an Emotionally or otherwise Responsible Being when engaging in Poltics. She is right: to make "the personal political" is the temptation to narcissiticaly expect the world to revolve around oneself or one's own group.

  • @tommcfadden5232
    @tommcfadden5232 8 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    She has rediscovered the wheel! In late 1980's a prophetic book was written called, "The Culture of Narcissism," by a scholar from the University of Chicago I think, his name escapes me. At the time his arguments were dismissed as right wing hand wringing......I think his name was Christopher Lash.

    • @Khayyam-vg9fw
      @Khayyam-vg9fw 7 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      His name was Christopher Lasch and he was a history professor at the University of Rochester from 1970 until his death in 1994 at the age of 61. His most famous book, "The Culture of Narcissism" was published in 1979. You can read it here: www.scribd.com/doc/311973318/Lasch-Christopher-The-Culture-of-Narcissism-pdf

    • @gregdiprinzio9280
      @gregdiprinzio9280 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks, both of you. I read a few pages and find it interesting.

  • @EMAGA
    @EMAGA 7 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    She makes a lot of fantastic points.

  • @johanneslundie
    @johanneslundie 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Common sense lady!!! Brings us back down to earth again!!

  • @ollie3381
    @ollie3381 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    it feels so good to hear truths like these

  • @Steenmanification
    @Steenmanification 8 ปีที่แล้ว +31

    Oh my where have u been, how can I only find out about this now.

    • @MatchesMalone1183
      @MatchesMalone1183 8 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Look up Professor Jordan Peterson's youtube channel if you find Williams's position on identity politics compelling. He's a Canadian university Professor who has dedicated himself to fighting against the aforementioned. He has some very interesting positions and arguments. He actually did a really good interview with Joe Rogan which you can find on youtube, well worth watching despite it's length. Oh and you might see the interview broken up into about 15 minute segments, but the interview itself is 2,3 hours long.

    • @username102793
      @username102793 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      Amazing comprehensive interview. I know people probably flinch at the length of such an interview, but if anyone has the time to spare, they should listen to the entire Peterson Rogan interview

    • @fredhubbard7210
      @fredhubbard7210 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Jordan Peterson is over rated. Joanna Williams anyday.

    • @JeffFinley
      @JeffFinley 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Just NOW seeing this today! Like a glass of water in the desert!

  • @SirKenchalot
    @SirKenchalot 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow, what a great thinker Joanna Williams is! Fantastic. I'm going to go look for some of her books.

  • @jean-pascalheynemand3271
    @jean-pascalheynemand3271 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Well stated. Feelings over facts. Nothing good or lasting can come of this.

  • @hvrtguys
    @hvrtguys 7 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Speaking as an oprressed carbon based life-form...........................

  • @mtb416
    @mtb416 7 ปีที่แล้ว +17

    Identity politics has eroded the need (for its adherents) to actually cite facts. It allows its adherents to just preach without listening. They wish for and seek out no dialogue at all.

    • @halofreak1990
      @halofreak1990 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @my pp small , i was cucked and White privilege couldn't be farther from factual. A lot of the things being thrown around these days aren't based on facts, and even if they are, the facts have usually been cherry-picked to fit the narrative, instead of showing the larger whole. The Black Lives Matter movement, for example, pretends there is no black on black violence that dwarfs the number of deaths caused by the police. And supporters of the movement conveniently ignore the number of black people that died since this year's round of the movement started, which also happens to surpass the number of black victims of police violence by quite a margin.

  • @databang
    @databang 8 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Smart lady-hope she goes far! The state of Identity Politics is too suffocating in California. In my opinion, as a GenXer, the worst political identity term is "Person Of Color". Whenever I hear from my own peeps use "POC", I cringe, as it usually always implies victimhood or progressive moral entitlement. When POC is used in a room with multiple demographic minorities, it always presumes the speaker speaks for all and ignores the individual opinions while saying "shut up whitey". The generation before GenX used to say "colored people" which was deprecated as "racist". Now millennials use "people of color"-but be careful a slip of the tongue and reversing the order would get someone labeled racist.-How dumb is that!

  • @itsmecheh
    @itsmecheh 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Well said. There is a lot of sense to this.
    What about stats related to job inequality, economic status, income inequality and stereotypes related to identity politics that cause for unconscious bias in the world today? What about such variables?

  • @StonefieldJim4
    @StonefieldJim4 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Jo's brilliant. If you get a chance to see her speak, do so.

  • @bmanagement4657
    @bmanagement4657 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    rationality and objectivity are absolutely not mutually exclusive. objectivity is approximate and rooted in bias, subjectivity is insecure and unstable, unreliable even. the new answers are that we are kind of screwed.

  • @pocketsdoesstuff3880
    @pocketsdoesstuff3880 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Identity politics is a combination of racism and sexism. Reverse racism and reverse sexism are still just racism and sexism. It's discrimination rooted in an irrational hatred and it's the irrational aspect that shuts down debate.
    Concerning transgenderism? The one thing that I don't think people realize when they advocate for transgender people being allowed to serve in the military is that, they simply wouldn't be happy there at all. Men and women who wish to serve their country surrender a bit of their identity to do so. The idea of allowing people who are so identity obsessed, narcissistic, as was stated in the video, how on earth are they going to cope with surrendering any of their individuality in order to serve? If ever drafted I would imagine they would throw their own transgenderism straight out the window, as they would receive no social reward for it in that environment, it would become nothing but an impediment.

    • @nitaj2958
      @nitaj2958 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Pockets Does Stuff Perfectly Said !!!

  • @robertroth5197
    @robertroth5197 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Joanna Williams is quite interesting. I'll be watching more of her.

  • @Ryan91487
    @Ryan91487 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    It is more egotism than narcissism. Take the Dunning Kruger effect and ramp it up to 10.

  • @leonardhughes5461
    @leonardhughes5461 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Intelligent woman. Identity Politics is very limiting, true, so true!

  • @patrickdevitt1789
    @patrickdevitt1789 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    It's a LONG TIME since I heard some one ANSWER a QUESTION without the first word being SO. AND WILL LISTEN again MORE ATTENTIVELY LATER.

  • @kkallebb
    @kkallebb 8 ปีที่แล้ว +19

    I noticed that Julie Bindle was on the panel. Does she know that her ship is sinking -- is almost sunk.

    • @pigknickers
      @pigknickers 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      That woman is real poison

    • @SladeL
      @SladeL 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Julie Bindel is not a third wave identity feminist, she's second wave. They are opposites. Bindel also rejects transgenderism and identity politics. Do your homework.

    • @kkallebb
      @kkallebb 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      ***** It depends on your definition of what second- and third-wave feminists are. I know that there is some disagreement on this. In any case, I never said that Julie Bindle was a third wave feminist, so what are you talking about?

    • @SladeL
      @SladeL 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You said her ship is sinking. What ship is that?

    • @SladeL
      @SladeL 8 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Second wave is based on material physical reality, 3rd wave on identity.

  • @empoweredchoice1893
    @empoweredchoice1893 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great content. It is fantastic to hear women speak out on identity politics.

  • @tannopk
    @tannopk 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Exactly !I realize that this year when I was researching politics prophecy and relationships, all separately with the same theme kept running through, narcissism

  • @twelve8952
    @twelve8952 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Although I enjoyed watching this video why has the rest of the debate been cut from it? Without the context of a discussion this is just polemic.

  • @keenobserver5060
    @keenobserver5060 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Joanna Williams is the female version of Brendan O’Neill, Brendan O’Neill is the male version of Joanna Williams. Both brilliant.

  • @BlaBla-sz2dv
    @BlaBla-sz2dv 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Saw the video title, instantly smashed that like button

  • @saraha5510
    @saraha5510 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Vintage Williams - excellent points succinctly expressed.

  • @johnpaulpm
    @johnpaulpm 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    It would be nice to hear the counterarguments and questions...

  • @ianhruday9584
    @ianhruday9584 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    There are real problems with identity politics, but I feel like she's conflating middle class social media habits and academic squabbling over departmental Authority with other positive forms of this type of politics. Her comments about trans identity really confirms this for me. We are not talking about a group of people who are narcissistically trying to force everyone else to live in a certain way, but rather a group of people who are subjected to incredible levels of violence because of how they wish to live their lives.
    If we restrict ourselves to looking at middle class social media habits, I absolutely agree that identity politics and combat over victim status is narcissism rather than social activism. I also agree that we would benefit from returning to a model of universal class struggle. But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. There is a reason that people find identity politics attractive. We should all want the ability to choose how we live, relatively free from arbitrary hierarchy or repressive customs. This intuition is at the heart of identity politics.
    Unfortunately, this type of politics cannot deliver on its own promises. It's language tends to be divisive, moralizing over perceived slights and differences in language. Because identity politics see groups as vehicles for political projects, it reinforces those groups and actively polices boundaries, reifying oppressive categories. Because group membership is a source of political power and funding, identity politics is obscurantist, moralizing abstruse analytical Frameworks.
    She is absolutely correct that this form of politics is highly undemocratic, but she misses the point when she says it's narcissistic. If we are going to return to a thoroughgoing materialist politics, we should examine the materialist roots of identity politics. When we do this, we find deep connections to middle class ngos and the way identity claims have been tied to funding. We also find that these obscurantist Frameworks and specialized language is part of many professional programs, segmenting the labor market in ways that benefit the middle class.
    Therefore, the claim that identity politics is narcissism misses the point. Sometimes it is narcissism and sometimes not, but it is always a class project.

  • @mikecarter5275
    @mikecarter5275 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    We are living in an increasingly more loveless and indifferent world... All sorts of behaviour is coming out of that to emotionally survive

  • @boondoggle4820
    @boondoggle4820 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    She is a real woman! Women should be more like this instead of following the destructive path of feminists. Feminism is essentially petulant and obnoxious bullying by the hysterical and emotionally insane. Men and women could deal honestly with one another as rational adults if more women were like this brilliant, wonderful woman.

  • @DanielRobertsxl
    @DanielRobertsxl 6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I think I'm in love. She is so objective its beautiful.

  • @homelesszombieapocalypse6622
    @homelesszombieapocalypse6622 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks for speaking the insufficiently understood truth. I really like your idea that IP is narcissism. And I really agree that there is a huge problem when people think that "any objective fact about the world is worthless, compared to people's subjective experiences." This is an active choice for stupidity, an anti-intellectual and anti-scientific choice. As an artist and emotional person of course I value subjectivity, but it has its place, its context. That context has been lost.
    I also have theorized that Identity Politics is actually a fundamentalist religion. Consider, that Identity Politics involves fanaticism, is oriented to believing in "original sin" in white people (whites, but not those of other races, are often considered "guilty until proven innocent" as is reflected in the dismissive and contemptuous comment "check your white privilege"), is oriented to the idea that one has to be "born again" (eg, one has to "awaken" to one's white privilege, or become aware of oppression) , and like many fundamentalist religions, it is extremely literalistic (superficial) and delusional.
    I think Identity Politics began with good intentions....but...as the saying goes...the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The original intent was good, it was to bring awareness to oppression. However, the result has become a philosophy or even a religion, which is shallow, full of dualism, racism, double standards, highly presumptuous thinking, which perversely glorifies victimization, and gives people status based on how victimized they are. Identity Politics engages in wholesale dismissal of people based on superficial characteristics. Moreover, Identity Politics as it takes hold of whole communities, can produce mass delusion and gaslighting in the way that we find in religious cults, and demonize reasonable people with legitimate concerns, by casually dismissing them as racists, haters, etc. The tendency of adherents of Identity Politics is to believe they no longer have to produce intelligent arguments, they can simply rout their opponents with ad hominem attacks.
    I address the social dysfunction created by Identity Politics in my film, Homeless Zombie Apocalypse. th-cam.com/video/iF0qqkNQmZ4/w-d-xo.html

  • @christopherbrannon5934
    @christopherbrannon5934 8 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Well this earned my subscription.

    • @kayleegregory770
      @kayleegregory770 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      But will it fill you're perscription?

  • @theodorearaujo971
    @theodorearaujo971 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    The Private becoming Public...excellent point. Same Narcissism that causes otherwise rational people to declare their religious beliefs, and the belief that they know a God and what that God wants...Identity politics will legitimate the extreme right because it states to everyone that your self declared identity, regardless of what it is based upon, is a justification for laws and public policy and justifies your actions. Basing opinions on nothing but feelings and faith is irrational.

  • @caseylee8326
    @caseylee8326 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Awesome. Thanks so much for posting this.

  • @SoftNSpicey
    @SoftNSpicey 8 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    people can be subjective and objective at the same time, it's not all or nothing. and sometimes politics is personal depending on the subject matter. When the govt is trying to legislate over personal topics such as which bathroom to use, healthcare, abortion rights, gay rights then politics is personal. Or what about people who get paid less simply because of their identity and they're fighting for fair wages? There is a place for identity politics on some topics.

    • @VideoGuy232
      @VideoGuy232 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      sochima89 I couldn't agree more. I don't think it's so easy to separate the personal/emotional from the rational. I think both influence each other in nuanced ways.
      Likewise, I see nothing wrong with identity politics as they're referred to in this video. These are a means of introspection and determining who we are and why. I can't completely understand my biases as a man, unless I compare them to the biases of a woman, and vice versa.

    • @jonradlett3678
      @jonradlett3678 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Sochima89 Not so sure I do agree. The assumption is that those for whom a topic is not personal will wish to oppress those for whom it is personal. That really doesn't follow. One can be outraged by unfairness and injustice, even if not personally affected by it. Indeed, as Joanna seemed to be saying, achieving change in a democracy *requires* that those outside an affected class to accept the legitimacy of a complaint from an oppressed class. Put simply, identity politics disenfranchises those who would support change. The obverse of that is that we have to accept that those unaffected may have views that are not supportive (as there may be some within a class who are unsupportive). We shouldn't be dismissing a view purely because it is expressed from outside a class: that is lazy, and too easy. Objectionable views should be dismissed on the basis of reason and evidence. Within that framework, what place is there for identity politics?

    • @VideoGuy232
      @VideoGuy232 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      Jon Radlett I don't think we should dismiss views from those outside of the class or identity in question, but rather understand why those views are different. It becomes a matter of two conflicting groups' subjective experience. Their experience, of course, as a result of their identity. It's often difficult for people to evaluate the legitimacy of a complaint without at least a little empathy for the group in question. Which begins with raising awareness.

    • @jonradlett3678
      @jonradlett3678 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      Video Guy "I don't think we should dismiss views from those outside of the class or identity in question, but rather understand why those views are different." No argument there.
      However, thereafter you seem to be taking the stance that to be outside a group is to be in conflict with it. That just doesn't follow. You do not have to personally experience a wrong to know that it is wrong. Of course, if you expand the idea of 'subjective experience' to embrace everything that we see, hear, read or learn, then our views are informed by subjective experience. However, in that event the notion of subjective experience becomes a meaningless truism.

    • @VideoGuy232
      @VideoGuy232 8 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Jon Radlett I'm just saying that you cannot eliminate identity from the equation. I believe that "outside groups" can understand the struggle of a group who is different from them to varying degrees. But I think people who struggle with empathy specifically would do well to understand how their own identity leads to bias.

  • @amosjulien2539
    @amosjulien2539 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    she is a fantastic speaker

  • @LuckysLair
    @LuckysLair 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Three years later it is starting to show signs of eating itself.....fortunately

  • @RyderSpearmann
    @RyderSpearmann 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Love Joanna!!!! Awesome.

  • @louisecook6483
    @louisecook6483 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    This lady speaks so much sense, I do wish she would speak to BLM and these groups she would have them exploding. I love that she says they are narcacists she is bang on with this

  • @Menmatters
    @Menmatters 8 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    MRA arguments are valid

    • @Cajaquarius
      @Cajaquarius 8 ปีที่แล้ว

      Just see the Return of Kings website for proof.

    • @mack7963
      @mack7963 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      same with MGTOW the vocal minority in any of those groups are rabid, but thats the problem with group think, if you dont think like the group you dont get to be in the group and most of these idiots are desperate to be in the group.

    • @mack7963
      @mack7963 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Legend Length
      i see you are that myth that is only spoken of in whispers, he who has common sense, maybe there is hope for the internet after all :), genuinely nice to see intelligence at work

    • @mtb416
      @mtb416 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Menmatters I have many caveats, but I will say that MRA arguments are more valid than second and third wave feminist arguments are.

    • @mtb416
      @mtb416 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Michael Mackinnon Yep, those people are still out there. You're one, he's one, I'm one. I hope we're growing in size.

  • @amosjulien2539
    @amosjulien2539 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    this woman is brilliant.

  • @tristunalekzander5608
    @tristunalekzander5608 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    It is no that identity politics are bad, it is just that some people use it not to help people in that group, but to virtue signal how "oppressed" they are when they are not even oppressed to begin with. If a group you associate with or are part of is _actually_ under _real_ oppression or danger, it is perfectly natural and justified to stand up and advocate for them. It is not narcissistic to simply want your group to survive.

  • @firouz4296
    @firouz4296 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The line between private and public was blurred by the Internet and social media!

  • @fredhubbard7210
    @fredhubbard7210 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    LOL. This is great editing. The moderator is trying to limit Joanna and cut her off... Then you come along, and clean up the discussion to only the relevant stuff... Nicely done. I like your style.

  • @tommcfadden5232
    @tommcfadden5232 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    The argument that subjective experience trumps objective facts has made its way into the world of professional counseling. Part of the reason, I believe, that counseling has a poor success rate in helping people overcome their problems stems from its belief that subjective experience should be taken at face value. No effort is made to analyze subjective experiences rationally.

  • @marcianopadilla3651
    @marcianopadilla3651 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    She's correct.So is the basis for capitalism, matetialism, classism. and individualism. Only when we collectively impose our politics on others in an us vs them attitude do we become dangerous. Fight or flight becomes the only solution. The final solution potentially.

  • @metacarpitan
    @metacarpitan 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I can pick some of Baumans ideas on her discourse. Very good.

  • @stigmoto228
    @stigmoto228 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    She was interesting at first but lost me on several points, the information she uses to support herself are really an exercise in bias confirmation. That in itself is narcissistic. As the saying goes, "if you spot it, you got it."

  • @mylesmwalkerjr
    @mylesmwalkerjr 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Identity Politics had so much potential, how did they manage to fuck that up lol People are becoming more and more like irrational hypocrites yet the only good thing thats coming from it, is that it's exposing the vulnerabilities in our Politics and or societies as a whole.

  • @Mark_Bickerton
    @Mark_Bickerton ปีที่แล้ว +1

    And yet here we are, still living this with crap... in fact it's got worse!

  • @eligoldman9200
    @eligoldman9200 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I mean sure but we can also look at facts and show that women in the same exact job as men get paid less and people with more foreign sounding names get interviews and loan approval less even with the same background and credit scores. She’s real uncharitable.

  • @freedom2fighter720
    @freedom2fighter720 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    she is speaking truth. preach on

  • @rawloverawlight5067
    @rawloverawlight5067 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    thank you lady! like Bob Marley said: "I'm sick and tired of these ISM , SCHISM ways!"

  • @watchin_kc
    @watchin_kc 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think I'm in love with this woman.

  • @avro549B
    @avro549B 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Politics is a process for gaining by influence what you can't gain on merit.

  • @157dixon
    @157dixon 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    I had similar thoughts. Well put

  • @gustacular
    @gustacular 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great take

  • @TheAlphaphotographer
    @TheAlphaphotographer 8 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Such a voice for reason in a sea of fluffy politics.

  • @IosuamacaMhadaidh
    @IosuamacaMhadaidh 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    How the ruling class uses identity politics to divide should not be ignored.

  • @vincentvaneeckhout5355
    @vincentvaneeckhout5355 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great insights, thanks

  • @JazzfireflyNZ
    @JazzfireflyNZ 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great points.

  • @maxwellschneiter
    @maxwellschneiter 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Outstanding!

  • @supremereader7614
    @supremereader7614 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good video, excellent points, but wish you did show how the others responded a little bit.

  • @m-bronte
    @m-bronte 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    8:03 great insight from Williams.

  • @joelfarmer3954
    @joelfarmer3954 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow, she’s amazing!

  • @OmegaMan999
    @OmegaMan999 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wow. It's very strange to hear these words from an academic

  • @joegillian314
    @joegillian314 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    9:16 lol, why would she choose to describe it that way? Is she experienced in the ways of Cid?

  • @peterspeight2880
    @peterspeight2880 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good talk.

  • @RCSVirginia
    @RCSVirginia 8 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    One of the things that makes Identity Politics so powerful is that it bestows on people who adhere to it genuine benefits. In the United States, those who identify as a recognized minority are able to leapfrog over whites with better grades and higher achievements when it comes to admission to colleges and universities, and they are better able to obtain grants to pay for that education. There are even schools of higher education that have set up funds to pay for the schooling of illegal aliens. One way to strike at the source of Identity Politics would be to abolish affirmative action and to make merit the standard on which individuals are judged. The American Civil Rights Institute has been fighting for just that for years, and you can learn more about its work at its website:
    acri.org/