DC has destroyed all of their Super Heroes, I stopped buying their comics years ago when the wokeness started. Superman is the biggest destruction they have done.
While I love most of Kirby's work am I the only one that hates his faces? Semi neanderthal or too simian. Something. I'll take Romita or Byrne, Adams or Simonson over Kirby on a whole even though Kirby's cosmic stuff and backgrounds are phenomenal
It's always a bummer to learn how disrespected Kirby was in the industry back in the day, at both Marvel and DC. It's wonderful that he's recognized today as the comics pioneer that he truly was, but I wish he could have enjoyed some of that glory back when he was doing all the work.
Yean,the editors at Marvel(when Jack went back to Marvel in 1976)would make fun of Jack's artwork to his face.Total disrespect.And told him he should retire because he couldn't draw good anymore.Kirby left Marvel to work in animation,I forget which studio.
*i love kirby's productions. his artistry, writing and vision are second to none. **_THAT BEING SAID,_** i remember reading his take on supes during his **_"NEW GODS"_** run, **_AND IT WAS SHIT!!_** just terrible. he just had no understanding of the character, his exploits or superman's limitations.*
It's incredibly ironic how DC's management disregarded Kirby's work on Fourth World at the time, but these days they're clinging to Darkseid like a life preserver.
While Kirby's first stint with Marvel is iconic, his tenure with DC should be regarded highly too. His work on New Gods, Mister Miracle, OMAC, Kamandi, and The Demon was exemplary work. He definitely did not get enough appreciation from his contemporaries.
Technically, that was the King's third stint with DC. In his first, he and Joe Simon became legit superstars at DC in the 40s and even had Boy Commandos outselling Batman. Plus, he created Manhunter, Guardian and the Newsboy Legion, and remade Sandman in his image. In his second stint at DC, he re-energized Green Arrow and created Challengers of the Unknown, the second hit of the Silver Age right after the Barry Allen Flash. He would have probably spend the entire sixties doing sci-fi adventures featuring this fantastic foursome, but he and editor Jack Schiff had a disagreement over ownership of the Sky Masters comic strip and also a land dispute, so Schiff got Kirby blacklisted at DC. Overall, Kirby actually did slightly more work for DC than Marvel by a few percentage points. It was just spread out over three separate eras rather than mostly bunched together as with Marvel.
I always love revisiting Kirby's time at DC, especially Jimmy and the beginnings of the Fourth World. It's fascinating how the company did so much to erase his visual identity only to re-incorporate it over the years. I really don't think the DC Universe would look or feel the same without him. Fantastic work as always, Owen!
Kirby's home was always Marvel and at the time comics were suffering and remember DC were reprinting old titles and that was cool old titles like Blackhawks and Sea Devils were on the ranks as others . The Silver Age ended as I would buys some comics from time to time .
Let's not forget that DC also sabotaged "Spirit World" and "In the days of the Mob", the two non-superhero projects Kirby wanted to do after Forth World. Apparently, Kirby just wanted to establish Forth World and its characters and then step aside, let others take the reins, with him as editor/coordinator. His goal was to create more prestige books with "Spirit..." and "In the days...", but DC did everything they could to stop those plans.
Jack Kirby is the most influential artist in all of media not just comics. His imagination and boundless storytelling is top notch he is the king for a reason it's a crime that DC erased his superman's face
*i love kirby's productions. his artistry, writing and vision are second to none. **_THAT BEING SAID,_** i remember reading his take on supes during his **_"NEW GODS"_** run, **_AND IT WAS SHIT!!_** just terrible. he just had no understanding of the character, his exploits or superman's limitations.*
Hearing that Kirby didn't want to over run other creatives work when given the chance at some of the biggest characters makes you respect him 1000000 times more.
It always makes me smile when I finish an episode of season 3 or 4 of Young Justice and get to see Jack Kirby's name credited with all the characters he created.
Erasing Kirby's Superman faces was probably the biggest insult of the many that DC heaped upon Kirby! It wasn't just to protect their brand, it was spiteful!
Way back in the seventies when I first read the Kirby Jimmy Olsen comics I immediately noticed that they were re-drawing Kirby's Superman faces. It was so obvious.
It should be noted that DC leadership (Paul Levitz and Jenette Kahn specifically I believe) wanted Kirby to do character redesigns of his Fourth World characters for the new toy line specifically so that he would be entitled to royalties for those characters (as the royalty program did not exist when he created them). Kudos to them for trying to do right by him when so many others didn’t.
It always makes me sick to my stomach when an entertainment based company (comics, wrestling, blog, etc) is able to acquire their direct competitions top attraction, only to purposely bury them to make the organization, as a whole, look better then their competitors. It does not. Ever. All it does is make the company look like it is run by half wits that don’t know how to book themselves out of a wet paper bag, even when they have absolute gold on their payroll.
I was trying to figure out why this story seemed so familiar and then I realized I'd witnessed it in person in the nascent smartphone industry, with Microsoft and Danger, Inc.
I really enjoy Jack Kirby's work. He's been a lifetime inspiration for me, and a major influence on my own work. I am known as someone who can draw in many different styles and ways, having being self-taught before my stint at the Joe Kubert School, but I learned a great deal about dynamics and dimension from Kirby's work. He was one of the few artists that actually changed the superhero comic book landscape. Before Jack Kirby, a lot of artist depicted heroes in fairly static poses, even while in the midst of an action scene. Kirby really changed all that. Kirby's figure were dynamic and three-dimensional. They were exciting to look at, and put special emphasis on the actions at hand. Kirby's heroes leaped off the page! They grabbed me in a big way when I was a kid, and still do! Several years back, I did an illustration of Bashful Ben Grimm, better known as the Thing as a commission for a friend. I drew it in a very Kirby-esque style because it's Jack's original version will always be my favorite, and I consider his version to be the BEST version. I hope you like seeing it here. I'll post a link below. Thank you for the great video! I don't know that I learned anything new from it that I didn't already know, but it's always great to see Jack's work flashing on my computer screen, and just as nice hearing people talk about his legacy. I look forward to future videos! www.lostonwallace.com/thingcollage100.jpg
@@mightyraccoon7155 Maybe it's time we really consider calling Colletta as a "racer", since what he does isn't really up to many common standards as an inker, or in some cases, even a tracer.
It's crazy to see how complicated comic history can be! I also love how apparent it is that a lot of work goes into making a video like this. And yes, we're waiting on that "Joker's Favorite Sandwich" video.
I remember reading this story from " Was Superman a Spy?" Book that covered this and many other comic 'incidents' in the business! Personally I do agree DC went too far sabotaging Kirby's work; whether this be by erasing Superman's face or meddling with his introduction of The New Gods...DC just forced the King to leave. That's not how you treat a great artist, and sadly, he wouldn't be the last...
I got to know Jack Kirby just slightly. I was Manager of a San Diego Comic store from 1984 to the late 90s (I was also at every Comic Con from 1975 when I first met him), when I returned to my home town and owned my own Store until near the the end of 2008. I had some long talks with Jack Kirby. I can say that, at least to me, he said he was very unhappy during his last year at DC. The fans had basically rejected his Fourth World (it later gained popularity), the only real star of his Fourth World was Darkseid, a rare Villain capable of going toe to toe with Superman. The only thing Jack was doing that was selling was Kamandi, which, by his standards, was hackwork as he was basically ripping off Planet of the Apes. A year later he seemed happy to be returning to Marvel. But, by that time his skills as writer and artist had deteriorated and he again felt slighted by Marvel.
About a month ago, I looked at a trade paperback of The Forever People, and Superman's face was the first thing I noticed. Knowing how a) Stan Lee would add notes on pages to redraw characters (like "Johnny looks too much like Reed here.") and b) even some of his renderings of real people (such as a villain with John Lennon's face) would devolve within a few panels into his usual style; I had wondered if DC had asked him to redraw Supes, or had someone redraw him.
@@albertoorani5427 DC also had Murphy Anderson & Al Plastino draw Superman & Jimmy Olsen for awhile in Kirby's run of Jimmy Olsen comics; eventually, DC finally Kirby himself draw those characters. Neal Adams inked Kirby's pencils of Superman on some of the Jimmy Olsen covers. It was said that Wally Wood offered to ink Kirby's pencils on Jimmy Olsen; having worked with Kirby before as well as worked on some of the Superman titles before.
Would love a follow up video to this covering Kirby’s return to Marvel with his Black Panther series and how that ties into Christopher Priest’s run in the early 2000’s
I love Kirby's work. Fantastic Four naturally the most, but his Super Powers felt, ironically, like breath of fresh air and is still rereadable by me. When I was small Kirby was a DC guy, but his Marvel works were being reprinted in the giant-sized issues and were readily available still for 10c at yard sales and flee markets. What a shame that neither company gave the gifted man the respect he had coming. I near these days Ordway and even Byrnes are being ignored for projects for the same silly reason of being supposedly "outdated". True art is always a pleasure to behold.
Great video! Thanks for the insight on the happenings during this era for Kirby. It's really crazy to see how much drama always seems to happen behind the scenes of comic book companies in any age. For all their drama with Jack Kirby, he gave them the beginnings of a cosmic masterpiece and he delivered on his idea of creating timeless characters. To this day, the New Gods, the Demon, and Kamandi all still pop pretty consistently in comics and other media. As well, Jack gave DC their ultimate villain. While Lex Luthor and Joker were still trying to figure out how to rob banks and make themselves richer, Jack gave them Darkseid, a being who wanted to enslave and recreate the universe in his image. He is still the ultimate villain at DC to this day. To finish, I remember getting Jack's Super Powers comics and loving how I could finally see my favorite characters drawn in Jack's style. I only wish that Mike Royer had inked that series too. It was always magic when those two worked together.
Even though curt swan is my prefered superman artist and my favorite superman design is the fleischer superman, I still love jack's interpetation of him.
So basically, DC getting Jack Kirby to draw Superman is like getting Todd McFarlane to draw 'My Little Pony'. Kirby does tend to draw blocky looking hands, but adding A classically drawn Superman face onto of those designs kinda defeats the purpose of having A Kirbyesque looking Superman.
If only they could have gotten Wally Wood to ink it as he did in Challengers of the Unknown. Wood had a way of preserving Kirby's feel but also adding an illustrative feel so the overall effect was close to Steve Rude for a modern comparison. He's still the King's best inker ever.
I was a marvel fan most of my life but through a friend Superman became one of my favorite characters. I love this channel you make some of the best content on TH-cam
Back in 1984 I was taking drum lessons from a punk rock drummer and a guy in one of his bands has a Gibson SG with Jack Kirby's Cap punching Hitler airbrushed on it.
I’m highly against DC profiting off something they were ashamed of and tried to hide. Think about that, why should they now try to change the perception of Kirby they themselves were pushing? Oh that’s right for financial gain, and whose going to get rich? Certainly not Jack Kirby, his family will barely get anything while DC rakes in cash they really don’t deserve hand over fist.
I think it should be emphasized that when Kirby didn’t want to replace an existing creative team it was specifically because he didn’t want to take other peoples’ jobs away from them. The man lived through the Great Depression, and I think it probably informed a lot of his own beliefs and behavior.
I know some of these editors and corporate snobs at DC gave the excuse that they wanted to change Kirby's Superman to 'fit the house style' or 'to get one over on Marvel'; but the real reason is they just thought his artstyle was ugly. They were just too afraid to say it because of the scrutiny they'd receive by dissing an iconic artist. Shoot, I can say it with a strait face that at some of his work on people IS UGLY! VERY UGLY! But that's fine. His arts is his own and he's still fantastic! That's why folks wanted to read his works and see his spin on Superman! Sadly DC rarely let him do even that.
This seems like the way it always is in the entertainment world: 1) Big media company hires famous artist. 2) Artist produces material in their style. 3) Company says, "No, not like that, like we've been doing it for the last fifty years." 4) Artist says "Then why tf did you hire me?" 5) Artist and company compromise and release a bastard product halfway between both styles. 6) Product fails. 7) Company blames artist.
It was definitely a power struggle with people on both sides within DC. After Kirby, Jimmy Olsen went back to his pre-Kirby stories for a little while, but in only a few more years he was in new adventure stories with the Newsboy Legion and Guardian all over again in Superman Family. It just took a few of the old guard to move on and more young turks writing and editing. DC has been regularly mining the Kirby IP ever since.
Jack Kirby not wanting to take a gig, makes sense. There was as an inker ruining Kirby's work at Marvel. Kirby never looked at his finished material. Other artist let him know the inker worked cheap & dirty. No finesse. No levels or details. Kirby didn't want him fired as he grew up during the Depression. He just asked that the inker be put on other books. This also lines up with DC altering his work. Perhaps Kirby assumed looking at the final product was an Editors job.
Darkseid must be raging mad knowing that he was introduced in Jimmy Olsen comics when it could have been Action Comics, the Flash, Green Lantern or JLA !
The only evidence we have that New Gods was intended to be a miniseries is that Mark Evanier said so. In the early ‘70s, they didn’t exist. DC cancelled Kirby’s first round of books at issue 11 saying he could do better. By today’s standards, those books had great sales numbers, but in the early ‘70s, DC wanted Justice League numbers. On the other hand, if they hadn’t canceled those books, we wouldn’t have gotten Demon & Mr. Miracle. It seems nothing that Jack did was ever truly wasted. Marvel should bring back Simon & Kirby’s Mercury from their stint at Timely Comics…
So just to make sure that I'm getting this straight, because I'm pretty sure that I'm not getting this straight: DC Comics told "The King" Jack Kirby that he could pretty much do whatever he wanted with whatever book he was assigned to, and then when he exactly does just what he wanted, DC Comics decided that he shouldn't do whatever he wanted. Just because it's Superman. If DC Comics didn't like Jack Kirby drawing Superman, which by sounds indisputably AWESOME, then why not let him have free reign on any other book not related to the Big Three. Whatever he did would have been just amazing.
Try to get hold of a few early issues of Kamandi, if you haven't already done so - that's a classic example how great Kirby could be when left alone to do his own thing.
Jack Kirby did his best work for Marvel. He did, however, work for just about every other company that was around in the 1950s, 60s and 1970s. I can understand the need to have Superman have a certain look. Someone messing with Kirby's art though was really insulting.
Jack Kelk and Jack Grimes played Jimmy Olsen on the Superman radio show. Jack Larson was Jimmy on the “Adventures of Superman” TV show with George Reeves.
To me it boggles my mind that DC would brag about getting Jack Kirby, then do everything in their power to make the art not look like Jack Kirby. At that point, I feel like what even was the point? 😅 (For what it’s worth, based on just the images shown here from that later work shown in the 80s, I think Kirby’s Superman came across as rather dashing…but Superman is my favorite DC hero, so maybe I’m a bit biased lol…😅) Another fantastic video! Well done! I don’t know a lot about Kirby’s time with DC, being a newbie and mostly a Marvel reader so I appreciate the knowledge you impart in your videos! 👍🏽
Even though DC erased his Superman face they made sure that he was taken care of via their toy line.When they released their Super Powers line of toys they included several of his characters and had him do the art on the comic that came out at the time earning him royalties from the toys.
Great video. I wish you had been able to include some shots of the DC Direct New Gods action figures from 2008-2009. Eight figures were directly based on Jack Kirby‘s artwork. Series 2 featured Superman.
You inserted the cover to Challengers of the Unknown #3 from 1958 in the video. That one cover alone destroys Stan Lee's claim that he created the Fantastic Four.
Not to everyone's tastes, but I love the evolution of JK's art. The more extremely stylised later work is just beautiful. Maybe the early 60s work is my favourite, but there's no need to choose, I love it all. Still 'The King'. 🎨👑
Awhile back when I watched your video on mister miracle I loved it so much I went out and bought the comic so I could read it. Thank you for getting me into mister miracle
Dope. Had no idea DC did The King dirty like that. It's ridiculous, given that the guy just handed them their Ultimate Big Bad whose well they keep going back to for some kind of compelling plot. But unless you're Grant Morrison, apparently you're destined to not understand how to write an actually good line like "the hole shaped like God."
Such an infuriating story for me every time I hear it. Altering an artist's work like this is such a huge insult to begin with. But to have done it to Kirby is just insane. It was Curt Swan that usually redrew the faces I believe. A great artist but not on Kirby's level. He should have declined to do that.
I don't know if Swan himself redrew any of Kirby's art (though DC did replace Alex Toth's Superman face with his for the Super Friends cartoon), but the instruction was for artists to draw it like Swan's Superman.
It was Al Plastino in the beginning--on the first issue of Forever People and the first few issues of Jimmy Olsen--and then Murphy Anderson on Jimmy's book after that. Note that when Mike Royer became the inker, there was no redo on Superman/Clark. So it seems like it was Colletta they had a problem with. Other pencillers got redone, mainly by Anderson, such as Werner Roth on Lois Lane (also with Colletta being the regular inker). And the Superman image they were going for was that Swanderson type--but not how Curt himself would have illustrated Superman, only how Anderson's inks interpreted Swan. Given it was done to other artists, not just Kirby, I don't see it as directed at Jack. I don't think it was a good idea--it would have been better if Vinnie Colletta never inked anyone, but he seemed to have some pull that got him these jobs--still, it was a general policy applied to many Superman artists at that time. For accurate art credits, see the GCD, comics.org.
If Kirby didn't want his Superman to he redrawn, he shouldn't have drawn the character so ugly. In the panel shown at 20:27, Superman's face looks grotesque, rather like that of the Hulk.
Stan Lee enabled every great work that Kirby did for Marvel and gave Kirby the credit that was in Lee's power to grant . DC treated Kirby as a shiny toy and dumped him. When DC decided to move forward with Kirby's creations they didn't even credit Kirby as the creator of those characters .
@Alan Doane Stan was the inovator who choose the crew . Jack's career pattern of sudden resignations and lawsuits could well have sent him Charleston and obscurity. Stan Lee made Kirby and no one else in the world would have at the time.
@Alan Doane you'd really like to be right and victimizing a dead man while lying to me shows that it's just not in you. Sit down and be silent if this is what you are .
@Alan Doane you admit that you're financially involved with pimping your vicious smears while simpering about respect you'd like. You're incapable of integrity clown .
I recall reading that after both the new gods and forever people books were canceled back in 1972, Kirby wanted out, but was told in no uncertain terms, that dc was not going to release him from his contract.
KIrby volunteered to fight in WW2,some artists were not required to go serve/fight.Some were exempt from fight,given a cushy job stateside,like Stan Lee.Kirby came from a rough & tumble neighborhood,he was very tough and you didn't push him around.He once told a story from WW2,where he had to fight-off 3 enemy fighters.Kirby put in the hours to produce work for Marvel comics,most times drawing multiple issues,most artists these days can't meet the deadlines on a single title.Kirby was handing in untold pages of finished artwork a month.
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Great video as always now make a video about the joker's favourite sandwitch
And why did they do it?
Dislike. Please don’t wait 5 minutes before You get to the point. We know who Kirby is
DC has destroyed all of their Super Heroes, I stopped buying their comics years ago when the wokeness started. Superman is the biggest destruction they have done.
While I love most of Kirby's work am I the only one that hates his faces? Semi neanderthal or too simian. Something. I'll take Romita or Byrne, Adams or Simonson over Kirby on a whole even though Kirby's cosmic stuff and backgrounds are phenomenal
It's always a bummer to learn how disrespected Kirby was in the industry back in the day, at both Marvel and DC. It's wonderful that he's recognized today as the comics pioneer that he truly was, but I wish he could have enjoyed some of that glory back when he was doing all the work.
Yean,the editors at Marvel(when Jack went back to Marvel in 1976)would make fun of Jack's artwork to his face.Total disrespect.And told him he should retire because he couldn't draw good anymore.Kirby left Marvel to work in animation,I forget which studio.
Because he just want to draw from his heart not attached to his own creation.
AGREED.
*i love kirby's productions. his artistry, writing and vision are second to none. **_THAT BEING SAID,_** i remember reading his take on supes during his **_"NEW GODS"_** run, **_AND IT WAS SHIT!!_** just terrible. he just had no understanding of the character, his exploits or superman's limitations.*
@@powerbad696Most likely Ruby-Spears.
It's incredibly ironic how DC's management disregarded Kirby's work on Fourth World at the time, but these days they're clinging to Darkseid like a life preserver.
It really is hard to imagine the DCU without Kirby's concepts, like the Fourth World, Intergang, and Project Cadmus.
Lies again? Jesus vs Allah App Store
While Kirby's first stint with Marvel is iconic, his tenure with DC should be regarded highly too. His work on New Gods, Mister Miracle, OMAC, Kamandi, and The Demon was exemplary work. He definitely did not get enough appreciation from his contemporaries.
Technically, that was the King's third stint with DC. In his first, he and Joe Simon became legit superstars at DC in the 40s and even had Boy Commandos outselling Batman. Plus, he created Manhunter, Guardian and the Newsboy Legion, and remade Sandman in his image. In his second stint at DC, he re-energized Green Arrow and created Challengers of the Unknown, the second hit of the Silver Age right after the Barry Allen Flash. He would have probably spend the entire sixties doing sci-fi adventures featuring this fantastic foursome, but he and editor Jack Schiff had a disagreement over ownership of the Sky Masters comic strip and also a land dispute, so Schiff got Kirby blacklisted at DC. Overall, Kirby actually did slightly more work for DC than Marvel by a few percentage points. It was just spread out over three separate eras rather than mostly bunched together as with Marvel.
I always love revisiting Kirby's time at DC, especially Jimmy and the beginnings of the Fourth World. It's fascinating how the company did so much to erase his visual identity only to re-incorporate it over the years. I really don't think the DC Universe would look or feel the same without him.
Fantastic work as always, Owen!
Kirby's home was always Marvel and at the time comics were suffering and remember DC were reprinting old titles and that was cool old titles like Blackhawks and Sea Devils were on the ranks as others . The Silver Age ended as I would buys some comics from time to time .
This is all really interesting but what’s joker’s favorite sandwich??
You can't gotcha us with your trick questions, we all know the Joker Sandwich is a card trick.
Pastrami bacon roast beef on Mable rye with lettuce tomato pepper jack cheese and honey mustard
GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH
We DEFINITELY need a Joker sandwich video!
Harley Quinn and Poison ivy
Let's not forget that DC also sabotaged "Spirit World" and "In the days of the Mob", the two non-superhero projects Kirby wanted to do after Forth World. Apparently, Kirby just wanted to establish Forth World and its characters and then step aside, let others take the reins, with him as editor/coordinator. His goal was to create more prestige books with "Spirit..." and "In the days...", but DC did everything they could to stop those plans.
What is in the days?
@@jmgonzales7701 both were anthology books in prestige format. I believe “In the days...” had stories about Al Capone and Ma Baker, stuff like that.
@@robertopulitano8093 Sounds trippy but at the same time interesting.
Jack Kirby is the most influential artist in all of media not just comics. His imagination and boundless storytelling is top notch he is the king for a reason it's a crime that DC erased his superman's face
Should’ve let him draw Superman’s face
@@MetalMadness_00 drawing is his passion, a honest person. He chose not to own his character, so he can draw character anything he want.
@@RACH90810 least we finally got the big Jack Kirby DC Story
*i love kirby's productions. his artistry, writing and vision are second to none. **_THAT BEING SAID,_** i remember reading his take on supes during his **_"NEW GODS"_** run, **_AND IT WAS SHIT!!_** just terrible. he just had no understanding of the character, his exploits or superman's limitations.*
@@maddoxtolliver totally untrue
As the King said himself, "Comics will break your heart"
Check out the Carl Burgos story sometime, for proof of that.
Hearing that Kirby didn't want to over run other creatives work when given the chance at some of the biggest characters makes you respect him 1000000 times more.
It always makes me smile when I finish an episode of season 3 or 4 of Young Justice and get to see Jack Kirby's name credited with all the characters he created.
Great video as always, Owen! Love every time you dig into Kirby’s history.
Love you both !!! need that Comic Content ...
I didn't knew you liked seeing two fellow comicbook mansplainers, Draper.
Erasing Kirby's Superman faces was probably the biggest insult of the many that DC heaped upon Kirby! It wasn't just to protect their brand, it was spiteful!
Way back in the seventies when I first read the Kirby Jimmy Olsen comics I immediately noticed that they were re-drawing Kirby's Superman faces. It was so obvious.
It should be noted that DC leadership (Paul Levitz and Jenette Kahn specifically I believe) wanted Kirby to do character redesigns of his Fourth World characters for the new toy line specifically so that he would be entitled to royalties for those characters (as the royalty program did not exist when he created them). Kudos to them for trying to do right by him when so many others didn’t.
It always makes me sick to my stomach when an entertainment based company (comics, wrestling, blog, etc) is able to acquire their direct competitions top attraction, only to purposely bury them to make the organization, as a whole, look better then their competitors.
It does not. Ever. All it does is make the company look like it is run by half wits that don’t know how to book themselves out of a wet paper bag, even when they have absolute gold on their payroll.
Bret Hart in WCW
@@karlherman3591 EXACTLY like Bret Hart in WCW.
I was trying to figure out why this story seemed so familiar and then I realized I'd witnessed it in person in the nascent smartphone industry, with Microsoft and Danger, Inc.
I really enjoy Jack Kirby's work. He's been a lifetime inspiration for me, and a major influence on my own work. I am known as someone who can draw in many different styles and ways, having being self-taught before my stint at the Joe Kubert School, but I learned a great deal about dynamics and dimension from Kirby's work. He was one of the few artists that actually changed the superhero comic book landscape. Before Jack Kirby, a lot of artist depicted heroes in fairly static poses, even while in the midst of an action scene. Kirby really changed all that. Kirby's figure were dynamic and three-dimensional. They were exciting to look at, and put special emphasis on the actions at hand. Kirby's heroes leaped off the page! They grabbed me in a big way when I was a kid, and still do! Several years back, I did an illustration of Bashful Ben Grimm, better known as the Thing as a commission for a friend. I drew it in a very Kirby-esque style because it's Jack's original version will always be my favorite, and I consider his version to be the BEST version. I hope you like seeing it here. I'll post a link below. Thank you for the great video! I don't know that I learned anything new from it that I didn't already know, but it's always great to see Jack's work flashing on my computer screen, and just as nice hearing people talk about his legacy. I look forward to future videos!
www.lostonwallace.com/thingcollage100.jpg
14:06 Having Coletta specifically "correct" Kirby's art was a bad call given how unsuited he was to ink Kirby's pencils in general.
I always loved the Kirby/Colletta years on Thor and FF although I know it's not a popular opinion.
@@summertime_blooz me too. I despite collettas inking, but with kirby makes a great work.
Coletta was the worst Inker in Marvel Comics History
@@mightyraccoon7155 Maybe it's time we really consider calling Colletta as a "racer", since what he does isn't really up to many common standards as an inker, or in some cases, even a tracer.
@@mightyraccoon7155 Correction: worst inker in comics history.
Now Owen has to make the “Jokers Favorite Sandwich” video
A well researched, thoughtful video essay of no less than 20 minutes is mandatory.
Please don't do it Owen.
It's crazy to see how complicated comic history can be! I also love how apparent it is that a lot of work goes into making a video like this. And yes, we're waiting on that "Joker's Favorite Sandwich" video.
I remember reading this story from " Was Superman a Spy?" Book that covered this and many other comic 'incidents' in the business! Personally I do agree DC went too far sabotaging Kirby's work; whether this be by erasing Superman's face or meddling with his introduction of The New Gods...DC just forced the King to leave. That's not how you treat a great artist, and sadly, he wouldn't be the last...
Imagine a comic book company that had given Kirby the respect and control he deserved. Stunning.
You're killing it, Owen! I loved this video.
I can’t believe that DC did Kirby dirty but I’m glad he was able to do something he wanted in the end.
I got to know Jack Kirby just slightly. I was Manager of a San Diego Comic store from 1984 to the late 90s (I was also at every Comic Con from 1975 when I first met him), when I returned to my home town and owned my own Store until near the the end of 2008. I had some long talks with Jack Kirby. I can say that, at least to me, he said he was very unhappy during his last year at DC. The fans had basically rejected his Fourth World (it later gained popularity), the only real star of his Fourth World was Darkseid, a rare Villain capable of going toe to toe with Superman. The only thing Jack was doing that was selling was Kamandi, which, by his standards, was hackwork as he was basically ripping off Planet of the Apes. A year later he seemed happy to be returning to Marvel. But, by that time his skills as writer and artist had deteriorated and he again felt slighted by Marvel.
About a month ago, I looked at a trade paperback of The Forever People, and Superman's face was the first thing I noticed. Knowing how a) Stan Lee would add notes on pages to redraw characters (like "Johnny looks too much like Reed here.") and b) even some of his renderings of real people (such as a villain with John Lennon's face) would devolve within a few panels into his usual style; I had wondered if DC had asked him to redraw Supes, or had someone redraw him.
If Superman looks like that masoginist Mr.Fantastic, that's not a good thing.
If I'm not mistaken DC had Curt Swan redraw Jack Kirby's Superman at least in a few issues of Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen
@@albertoorani5427 DC also had Murphy Anderson & Al Plastino draw Superman & Jimmy Olsen for awhile in Kirby's run of Jimmy Olsen comics; eventually, DC finally Kirby himself draw those characters. Neal Adams inked Kirby's pencils of Superman on some of the Jimmy Olsen covers. It was said that Wally Wood offered to ink Kirby's pencils on Jimmy Olsen; having worked with Kirby before as well as worked on some of the Superman titles before.
@@geraldstephens6612 Didn't know that, thanks for the info
Would love a follow up video to this covering Kirby’s return to Marvel with his Black Panther series and how that ties into Christopher Priest’s run in the early 2000’s
I love Kirby's work. Fantastic Four naturally the most, but his Super Powers felt, ironically, like breath of fresh air and is still rereadable by me. When I was small Kirby was a DC guy, but his Marvel works were being reprinted in the giant-sized issues and were readily available still for 10c at yard sales and flee markets. What a shame that neither company gave the gifted man the respect he had coming. I near these days Ordway and even Byrnes are being ignored for projects for the same silly reason of being supposedly "outdated". True art is always a pleasure to behold.
Great video! Thanks for the insight on the happenings during this era for Kirby. It's really crazy to see how much drama always seems to happen behind the scenes of comic book companies in any age. For all their drama with Jack Kirby, he gave them the beginnings of a cosmic masterpiece and he delivered on his idea of creating timeless characters. To this day, the New Gods, the Demon, and Kamandi all still pop pretty consistently in comics and other media. As well, Jack gave DC their ultimate villain. While Lex Luthor and Joker were still trying to figure out how to rob banks and make themselves richer, Jack gave them Darkseid, a being who wanted to enslave and recreate the universe in his image. He is still the ultimate villain at DC to this day. To finish, I remember getting Jack's Super Powers comics and loving how I could finally see my favorite characters drawn in Jack's style. I only wish that Mike Royer had inked that series too. It was always magic when those two worked together.
Even though curt swan is my prefered superman artist and my favorite superman design is the fleischer superman, I still love jack's interpetation of him.
The fact that Kirby didn't hold any bitterness toward those who wronged him is why he is the GOAT
So basically, DC getting Jack Kirby to draw Superman is like getting Todd McFarlane to draw 'My Little Pony'. Kirby does tend to draw blocky looking hands, but adding A classically drawn Superman face onto of those designs kinda defeats the purpose of having A Kirbyesque looking Superman.
If only they could have gotten Wally Wood to ink it as he did in Challengers of the Unknown. Wood had a way of preserving Kirby's feel but also adding an illustrative feel so the overall effect was close to Steve Rude for a modern comparison. He's still the King's best inker ever.
I was a marvel fan most of my life but through a friend Superman became one of my favorite characters. I love this channel you make some of the best content on TH-cam
Back in 1984 I was taking drum lessons from a punk rock drummer and a guy in one of his bands has a Gibson SG with Jack Kirby's Cap punching Hitler airbrushed on it.
Excellent video as always! Kirbys time at DC is always so strange to me, but its fascinating to revisit!
They need to re-release those books with Kirby's original Superman artwork.
I’m highly against DC profiting off something they were ashamed of and tried to hide. Think about that, why should they now try to change the perception of Kirby they themselves were pushing? Oh that’s right for financial gain, and whose going to get rich? Certainly not Jack Kirby, his family will barely get anything while DC rakes in cash they really don’t deserve hand over fist.
The Superman image at 19:05 shows how much of an influence Kirby must have been on Darwyn Cooke
Kirby’s style on super man is kinda interesting gives him more of an alien vibe, a face that shared a little more with the likes of Zodd
I think it should be emphasized that when Kirby didn’t want to replace an existing creative team it was specifically because he didn’t want to take other peoples’ jobs away from them. The man lived through the Great Depression, and I think it probably informed a lot of his own beliefs and behavior.
Jolly good review sir. Nice collab. Those Kirby mini comics and the Kenner Super Powers figures are iconic.
Thanks for including Scott from Nerdsync! He's a cool and awesome fellow covering comics!
Jack Grimes played Jimmy on the Superman radio show. Jack Larson portrayed him on tv, a decade later.
I am into seven decades and I had never seen Kirby's Superman. Effin' breathtaking. Who knew?
It really is hard to imagine the DCU without Kirby's concepts, like the Fourth World, Intergang, and Project Cadmus.
I know some of these editors and corporate snobs at DC gave the excuse that they wanted to change Kirby's Superman to 'fit the house style' or 'to get one over on Marvel'; but the real reason is they just thought his artstyle was ugly. They were just too afraid to say it because of the scrutiny they'd receive by dissing an iconic artist. Shoot, I can say it with a strait face that at some of his work on people IS UGLY! VERY UGLY! But that's fine. His arts is his own and he's still fantastic! That's why folks wanted to read his works and see his spin on Superman! Sadly DC rarely let him do even that.
Drawing over somebodies art has got to be one of the most disrespectful things a company can do to an artist.
This seems like the way it always is in the entertainment world:
1) Big media company hires famous artist.
2) Artist produces material in their style.
3) Company says, "No, not like that, like we've been doing it for the last fifty years."
4) Artist says "Then why tf did you hire me?"
5) Artist and company compromise and release a bastard product halfway between both styles.
6) Product fails.
7) Company blames artist.
It was definitely a power struggle with people on both sides within DC. After Kirby, Jimmy Olsen went back to his pre-Kirby stories for a little while, but in only a few more years he was in new adventure stories with the Newsboy Legion and Guardian all over again in Superman Family. It just took a few of the old guard to move on and more young turks writing and editing. DC has been regularly mining the Kirby IP ever since.
Al Plastino was said to be the artist who did 'Plastino Surgery" on the face of Jack Kirby's Superman drawings!
Jack Kirby not wanting to take a gig, makes sense. There was as an inker ruining Kirby's work at Marvel. Kirby never looked at his finished material. Other artist let him know the inker worked cheap & dirty. No finesse. No levels or details. Kirby didn't want him fired as he grew up during the Depression. He just asked that the inker be put on other books. This also lines up with DC altering his work. Perhaps Kirby assumed looking at the final product was an Editors job.
It is really ironic how Jack Kirby's draw of Superman looks a lot like Tom Welling kkkkkkk
Darkseid must be raging mad knowing that he was introduced in Jimmy Olsen comics when it could have been Action Comics, the Flash, Green Lantern or JLA !
"Joker's Favorite Sandwich" NEXT!!
The only evidence we have that New Gods was intended to be a miniseries is that Mark Evanier said so. In the early ‘70s, they didn’t exist. DC cancelled Kirby’s first round of books at issue 11 saying he could do better. By today’s standards, those books had great sales numbers, but in the early ‘70s, DC wanted Justice League numbers. On the other hand, if they hadn’t canceled those books, we wouldn’t have gotten Demon & Mr. Miracle. It seems nothing that Jack did was ever truly wasted. Marvel should bring back Simon & Kirby’s Mercury from their stint at Timely Comics…
This video will be one of the most important historic discoveries in the history of making or history in general
"Comics will break your heart". It's the comment I think about way too often when I think of Jack Kirby
So just to make sure that I'm getting this straight, because I'm pretty sure that I'm not getting this straight: DC Comics told "The King" Jack Kirby that he could pretty much do whatever he wanted with whatever book he was assigned to, and then when he exactly does just what he wanted, DC Comics decided that he shouldn't do whatever he wanted. Just because it's Superman.
If DC Comics didn't like Jack Kirby drawing Superman, which by sounds indisputably AWESOME, then why not let him have free reign on any other book not related to the Big Three. Whatever he did would have been just amazing.
Try to get hold of a few early issues of Kamandi, if you haven't already done so - that's a classic example how great Kirby could be when left alone to do his own thing.
Thank you for the amazing video, Owen.
Thank you so much, Chris! Glad you enjoyed it.
Great work as ever Owen
Question.
Have you ever or would you ever do a piece on:
Deadman
The Spectre
The Creeper
Metamorpho?
Ngl I would never be able to point him out in a line up. But the name and his characters will always be known
The Fourth World is the absolute peak of comic books to me.
Edit: excepting the meddling with Kirby’s artwork
9:04 According to Jim Salicrup, another reason for all the "Silver Age Silliness" was because writers would adapt ideas submitted by actual kids
The Behind-the-scenes-Dramatics have always been (and probably still are) absolutely bonkers.
Really well done. Thank you so much for the presentation. 😉👌🏼✨
Jack Kirby did his best work for Marvel. He did, however, work for just about every other company that was around in the 1950s, 60s and 1970s. I can understand the need to have Superman have a certain look. Someone messing with Kirby's art though was really insulting.
Hey, make a video on Jokers favorite sandwich, just an idea LOL
This is just like when a good history teacher gives you a lesson about something and you actually get pissed off for the people that experienced it
Jack Kelk and Jack Grimes played Jimmy Olsen on the Superman radio show. Jack Larson was Jimmy on the “Adventures of Superman” TV show with George Reeves.
To me it boggles my mind that DC would brag about getting Jack Kirby, then do everything in their power to make the art not look like Jack Kirby. At that point, I feel like what even was the point? 😅
(For what it’s worth, based on just the images shown here from that later work shown in the 80s, I think Kirby’s Superman came across as rather dashing…but Superman is my favorite DC hero, so maybe I’m a bit biased lol…😅)
Another fantastic video! Well done! I don’t know a lot about Kirby’s time with DC, being a newbie and mostly a Marvel reader so I appreciate the knowledge you impart in your videos! 👍🏽
Carmine Infantino wanted Kirby but some of the old editors didn't want Joe Simon or Jack Kirby at DC.
The general attitude at dc was, that Neal Adams was the future of comics, and Kirby was the past.
Seems DC's penchant for grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory isn't just a modern development.
Fantastic video, really excellent.
Jeez, what a way to disrespect a legend. Thanks for covering this, I only had a vague idea about Kirby's troubles at DC.
This is a cool idea for a video and is executed brilliantly.
Thanks so much, Jack!
I seriously doubt Kirby saw getting to do "Super Poets" by Kenner as redemption
Even though DC erased his Superman face they made sure that he was taken care of via their toy line.When they released their Super Powers line of toys they included several of his characters and had him do the art on the comic that came out at the time earning him royalties from the toys.
Great video. I wish you had been able to include some shots of the DC Direct New Gods action figures from 2008-2009. Eight figures were directly based on Jack Kirby‘s artwork. Series 2 featured Superman.
A yes, Scott sticking true to his nature, giving context
You inserted the cover to Challengers of the Unknown #3 from 1958 in the video. That one cover alone destroys Stan Lee's claim that he created the Fantastic Four.
due to health problems in the mid 70's Kirbys wrok suffered.
Priority One should be to worry about why they've been erasing Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel's Superman.
Not to everyone's tastes, but I love the evolution of JK's art. The more extremely stylised later work is just beautiful. Maybe the early 60s work is my favourite, but there's no need to choose, I love it all. Still 'The King'. 🎨👑
I’d do a 2 part issue. Jimmy Olsen’s One Night Stand And Lois Lane’s Darkest Secret.
Thank you! It’s great to see and understand what Jack Kirby was creating with Superman.
Awhile back when I watched your video on mister miracle I loved it so much I went out and bought the comic so I could read it. Thank you for getting me into mister miracle
Kirby liked drawing open mouths in anger lol
Video topic: Guy Gardner as Warrior
Dope. Had no idea DC did The King dirty like that.
It's ridiculous, given that the guy just handed them their Ultimate Big Bad whose well they keep going back to for some kind of compelling plot.
But unless you're Grant Morrison, apparently you're destined to not understand how to write an actually good line like "the hole shaped like God."
Such an infuriating story for me every time I hear it. Altering an artist's work like this is such a huge insult to begin with. But to have done it to Kirby is just insane. It was Curt Swan that usually redrew the faces I believe. A great artist but not on Kirby's level. He should have declined to do that.
I don't know if Swan himself redrew any of Kirby's art (though DC did replace Alex Toth's Superman face with his for the Super Friends cartoon), but the instruction was for artists to draw it like Swan's Superman.
It was Al Plastino in the beginning--on the first issue of Forever People and the first few issues of Jimmy Olsen--and then Murphy Anderson on Jimmy's book after that. Note that when Mike Royer became the inker, there was no redo on Superman/Clark. So it seems like it was Colletta they had a problem with. Other pencillers got redone, mainly by Anderson, such as Werner Roth on Lois Lane (also with Colletta being the regular inker). And the Superman image they were going for was that Swanderson type--but not how Curt himself would have illustrated Superman, only how Anderson's inks interpreted Swan. Given it was done to other artists, not just Kirby, I don't see it as directed at Jack. I don't think it was a good idea--it would have been better if Vinnie Colletta never inked anyone, but he seemed to have some pull that got him these jobs--still, it was a general policy applied to many Superman artists at that time. For accurate art credits, see the GCD, comics.org.
Is there any collected edition of Kirby’s work at DC with his art unchanged? Or even better, depicted as it originally was before being redrawn?
There are some examples of Kirby’s 1970’s unaltered art in the magazine ‘The Kirby Collector.’
Kirby’s late period work was dismissed and disparaged by the companies that are making movies about it now.
If Kirby didn't want his Superman to he redrawn, he shouldn't have drawn the character so ugly. In the panel shown at 20:27, Superman's face looks grotesque, rather like that of the Hulk.
Excellent video I hope you do more Kirby vids like his creator own work and later marvel stuff like eternals and machine man and devil dinosaur
Stan Lee enabled every great work that Kirby did for Marvel and gave Kirby the credit that was in Lee's power to grant . DC treated Kirby as a shiny toy and dumped him. When DC decided to move forward with Kirby's creations they didn't even credit Kirby as the creator of those characters .
@Alan Doane if that's the line the vicious trolls are pimping so be it . Without Stan Lee Kirby would be nothing but a footnote
. Period.
@Alan Doane Stan was the inovator who choose the crew . Jack's career pattern of sudden resignations and lawsuits could well have sent him Charleston and obscurity. Stan Lee made Kirby and no one else in the world would have at the time.
@Alan Doane you'd really like to be right and victimizing a dead man while lying to me shows that it's just not in you. Sit down and be silent if this is what you are .
@Alan Doane you admit that you're financially involved with pimping your vicious smears while simpering about respect you'd like. You're incapable of integrity clown .
Hi Owen. I love you
Very interesting. Thanks for the information.
Gødland drawn by Tom Scioli looks very much like Jack Kirby.
Is really curious, I always read how bad they treated Jack Kirby in Marvel, but almost never read about his bad experience in DC.
I recall reading that after both the new gods and forever people books were canceled back in 1972, Kirby wanted out, but was told in no uncertain terms, that dc was not going to release him from his contract.
It is kind of weird how pretty soon after DARKSEID became considered such a great and core character.
I feel more than giving insight into what happened between Kirby and DC this video also gives an idea of just what kind of person Kirby himself was
KIrby volunteered to fight in WW2,some artists were not required to go serve/fight.Some were exempt from fight,given a cushy job stateside,like Stan Lee.Kirby came from a rough & tumble neighborhood,he was very tough and you didn't push him around.He once told a story from WW2,where he had to fight-off 3 enemy fighters.Kirby put in the hours to produce work for Marvel comics,most times drawing multiple issues,most artists these days can't meet the deadlines on a single title.Kirby was handing in untold pages of finished artwork a month.
I often wonder if a guy like Jack Kirby would even be able to get a job at Marvel or DC in current year.
I'm gonna need Jokers Sandwich now.