I recently tried a Bladesinger Wizard in a campaign. I think the Bladesong abilities help wizards a lot in the low levels. You can even become the party's frontline avoidance tank while Bladesong is active and you have slots for Shield and/or Absorb Elements, plus your melee damage with Booming Blade/ Green Flame Blade and Absorb Elements secondary effect is a non trivial contribution
Bladesinger depends a lot on stats. If you rolled three 18s, Bladesinger is flat out broken, but if you have underwhelming stats it's not as good. Better to make a Cleric and wear heavy armor, or a Druid and Wildshape.
Currently playing a bladesinger (just hit level 4) Some decent rolls for stats have me with an 18 in Int and Dex, so it's definitely strong. On the front lines, but when you get hit you really feel it.
eh, Bladesingers have good AC which matters especially in the early levels, but the issue is that a bladesinger has not gotten the high ability scores expected of a bladesinger (that actually really boost AC) at the early levels, unless you rolled extremely well. Still decent tho no lie.
Bladesinger works best if you largely ignore the melee capabilities and just play the character as a high-defense wizard -- unless you get some stupidly OP magical item drop like a Belt of Storm Giant Strength or a Moonblade.
I'm surprised there was no honorable mentions or acknowledge for the other classes. I would have personally mentioned the fighter at least, which is extremely solid at levels 1-5.
It is a bit odd you would clump lvl 5 with lvls 1-4 as there's a huge difference at lvl 5 due to extra attack/lvl 3 spells/etc. Regardless, I feel that monks do not get enough credit at the super low levels. Using your standard comparison vs hexing eldritch blast warlock, a monk deals 13 dpr on average compared to 12 for the warlock (2h quarterstaff + unarmed strike), so for zero resources the monk is above average in terms of damage.
@@jonahpeacock2561 Except the Warlock is spending spells on Hex to get that DPR, while the Monk in the damage analysis isn't even using their Ki. So the Monk's DPR is higher, and more sustainable.
I just don't get it with monk… At lvl 1 he has 2HP less than fighter (13 vs 11), same AC (both 16), no problems with stealth, no need to have good gear (Qstaf or spear is enough), best offense in game (1d8+3 and 1d4+3 each turn for free), free hand to interact all the time. At lvl 2 he can use 2 ki points (which recharge at short rest). Let's compare this to fighter's action surge - with Ki, you can have 2 extra attacks per short rest - with AS you can have 1 extra attack (so 2d6+3 vs 2d4+6 - almost the same), with Ki you can dodge twice, with AS only once, with Ki you can dash/disengage twice - with AS only once, so all in all, Ki seems better. And later, the gap is even bigger - Ki increases every level, AS not. Also, you get 10ft extra movement, which is great even defensively. At lvl 3 monk doesn't get too much, but deflect misiles are great defensive ability (also can be used to do me dmg). 3 times per short rest free prone/push/no reaction is not bad at all - similar to BM's manuevers, only with fewer DMG - Still nothig tragic. It is realy importatnt, that monk is not too MAD (he also doesn't need any feats), so he can easily start with 16 in dex, con and wis for good offense and defense, nice HPs.
100 % this. I just got done playing an Open Hand Monk at lower levels and she had no problem mixing it up as well as the armored tank fighters in the party., often doing MORE damage to the enemy in a given combat because she could get at least one bonus attack every round. She could flit through the enemy ranks, hitting them all in turn with Stunning Strike when she had ki or knocking them prone/canceling their reactions when she didn't, setting them up very well for the rest of the party, She was a lot more fun and interesting to play in combat than any fighter or ranger or paladin I've played.
I Agree ! I play a non-Good Protetor Aasimar Way of the Long Death Monk. At level 3, when I use Radiant Soul, I can add +level to any one damage I deal on that turn, which adds a lot. On a regular round, with Martial Arts, you have two attacks at that level. Three with Flurry of Blows. At level 5, you have extra attack, so on a regular round you have three attacks, four with flurry. At level 5, using a spear with both hands, that translates into 4 attacks with +7 (+3 proficiency + 4 dexterity), dealing (1d8+4 piercing damage) + (1d8+4 piercing damage) + (1d6+4 bludgeoning damage) + (1d6+4 bludgeoning damage), not to mention the +5 radiant damage that goes into one of those attacks that hits (it rarely is wasted, since you need at least one hit to connect for it to work). I know you usually don't hit all the attacks (unless you are attacking weaker minions, which is something you can easily do moving around between attacks with your Unarmored Movement), but if you manage to hit all attacks, you are dealing 2d8 + 2d6 + 21, AVG 37 damage, which is a nice damage overall and you only expended 1 ki point, an easily replenished short rest resource that you already have 5 on a pool. This is way lower than a Greatsword fighter with action surge (2d6 + 4, 4 times: 8d6 + 16), AVG 44 slashing damage (or bludgeoning, if Maul), but most Fighters will only have 1 usage of Action Surge during a short rest, while the 5th level monk can do it 5 times. And it increases each level. This also works wonders with Touch of Death: if you managed to kill someone, you get 5 Temporary HP, which isn't great by itself at that level, but it is free, easily obtained, easily reapplied and free, therefore always a win. It also made RP sense, since my character likes to suffocate his enemies to drain the essence of their last breath. My party always allowed me the last hit on foes because of that reason (which translates into more THP). The toughest fights I had were the ones that there weren't weaker foes, denying me the Touch of Death ability. I'm not saying Monk is the best class, but 1-5 levels is a really good spot for them. Except Sun Soul. It is just garbage.
Something that I think gets taken for granted is judging a class by how it performs at high levels while ignoring its performance at lower levels. You still have to survive the lower levels to reach higher levels! Also, most campaigns are not going to take place at higher levels.
Moon Druids are my bet for most fun class: You can pretty much help the party out in any situation, sneaking, scouting, healing, tanking, battlefield control, utility spells and wildshape forms.
One thing I find that players often forget about moon druids is how a large shapeshift form can be hard to manage inside a dungeon. Specially if there are more melee in the group that can literally be left standing still because the moondruid usually have more initiative than a heavy armor user. Still absurdly strong, but can be party unfriendly (also the player can't speak/RP while in shapeshift)
There are some decent medium options for wildshape too, but I agree that the best forms are large. I always play a ghostwise halfling if I'm a Moon Druid - but I'm halfling obsessed.
Next game I play I'm gonna get a melee to take mounted combatant while I take moon druid. I'll let him ride me into combat. He won't feel useless then!
The crazy part about this is that I just got done playing up to a lvl 9 Sun soul monk, and let me tell you, I probably died around 5 times before this final death due to the character being super weak. So I completely feel this. Edit: after thinking of this problem. For a while I believe that the answer to having a decent ranged attack on your monk, is to either pick up the feat mage initiate and grab a cleric cantrip or grab 1-2 lvls of light cleric.
Hey WotC, you know how you gave rangers a boost with gloom stalker.....how about just fix all of the monk. I love the monk. I believe its a decent class. But it's way behind other classes and could be easily fixed with just a few minor changes.
I feel that I should mention my thoughts on warlocks and monks. I believe that the designers of 5e intended for both the monk and warlock to be controllers who refresh in ways akin to the martial classes. They have stated before that they intended for short rests to be much more common than they are now. If groups did use short rests more often than they do, I believe monks and warlocks could be reasonably effective, if a bit odd. However, this does not excuse them from designing these classes from (as far as anyone can find) having only one damage effective playstyle for their standard abilities. The hexblade, to me, is a great way to counteract this problem because it finally gives an option to be truly effective without expending resources.
1-5 will always be the most important levels for my games. It eases my Players into their archetypes and lets them learn the mechanics. ( I start them at level three) so everyone has their subclasses down. (Casual players and mostly one shots).
Just a small Corerction on the Sun soul: "When you take the Attack action on your turn and use this special attack as part of it, you can spend 1 ki point to make the special attack twice as a bonus action." (direct quote from XGE) Also the Damage scales with your Martial Arts die ("This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.") and can be doine twice per Attack action with Extra attack. Monk are still really weak on low levels, and probably come into their own around lvl 7 or so, where you get evasion and can spend 2-3 ki points per encounter.
I think there is a misudnerstanding from the Phrasing: You can attack twice, with a single bonus action. It is basically "flurry of blows" but for the radiant sun bolt. Radiant sun bolt is meant to be the Monk Melee attack but at range. It is a "ranged spell attack" so you cant stunning striek with it ir benefit from any other Weapon or melee related feature with it.
@@TainakaRicchan It being a spell attack from dex tho does make sun monk 3 a functional "attack trigger dip" for already MC-ed out high dex casters (or druids as it lets bear mouth lazor) as it benefits from rod of the war mage and doesnt depend on the monk restriction to be unarmored for ki usage.
@@TreantmonksTemple I can see where this reading is coming from, but but that would mean, that you spend Ki, as a bonus action, to modify another action (you are already taking). All other monk features are either "Spend ki to do x as a bonus action" or "you may spend ki to enhance this action" (where the spending of the ki is no action). I thin kRadiant sun bolt is simply worded somewhat poorly.
As far as absorbing damage, the Artillerist Artificer is arguably the best at levels 3-5 because of the Protector Eldritch Cannon. 1d8+Int Mod temporary HP to itself and all creatures you choose within 10 feet EVERY ROUND for an HOUR is an insane amount of damage reduction for your whole party, especially against swarms of weak enemies (which is common in tier 1) that often can't take out that temp HP in 1 hit. If the enemies target the cannon, it has 18 AC, and as mentioned grants itself that temp HP as well, so it's a tanky distraction.
I'm surprised you didn't mention any Barbarian on the list. At low levels you are facing a lot of weapon damage, and rage ends up roughly doubling your HP. Barbarians can also hit more reliably than other characters through Reckless Attack. I really thought you would appreciate their high offense and defense.
Totem (Bear) Barbarian are straight monsters at early levels. Basically doubling entire health pool cause psychic damage is ultra rare at low level. Current party has a high dex, high con, and using a shield as a tank. 19 AC with 56 HP and Resistance at lvl 5 is no joke.
@@swordsman111982 While 100% mega true for longer games, id actually say Ancestral and Storm (tundra) are better if its a 1-4 session game/games that dont scale above level 6-7 as ancestral more than doubles the party hp while Storm fills the bonus action if you aint feating up to do so.
Frenzy barbarians are easily the nastiest barbarian at low levels. A v. Human (and less so a half-orc) frenzy barbarian is capable of going one on one with a moon druid of the same level in this range, and have a decent chance of winning.
@@jonathandean2625 Vhuman does proportionally little for frenzy barb. Power attack alone is great ofc but at least 1/3rd the value of GWM is in its pseudo cleave/bonus action on crit n kill attack which is wasted on frenzy.
@@M0ebius Your example works only with three weapons, though. It's a very good option but covers less builds. With Elven Accuracy, you could even go for a multiclass dual wield build
If we accept CR content (featured on D&D Beyond) Lycan Bloodhunter is even worse than Sun Soul Monk. You are essentially a barbarian who needs to constantly hurt themselves to get the damage, your transformation is far weaker than Rage (less melee damage, a gap in your nonmagical BPD resistance...) and to add insult to injury, your max HP is essentially cut in half as you have to save each round or be forced to kill your allies if you're under.
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the Order Cleric never made the "best" list, but it is a bit dependant on other characters in the party being powerful as well. Order cleric and paladin, or Order cleric and rogue is a BEAST of a combo, even at very low levels. Healing Word is already a stupidly powerful spell as it is, but an order cleric can weaponize it without using any more of their own resources than just the cost of casting the spell itself. If you are in a party with some really good martial damage dealers, then Order Clerics are completely busted. I thought Swashbuckler Rogue might make the best list as well, given their ability to consistently get sneak attack *and* avoid getting attacked at lower levels.
@@xthebumpx This class and maybe the Valor Bard? Just trade off Voice of Authority with Dissonant Whispers and the same net effect can be achieved. Maybe even more damage dealt to the target. Meanwhile, there's Inspiration to boost attack rolls or bump ACs. There's Faerie Fire to provide advantage. Healing, Temp HPs, 2 attacks etc... There are many similarities. Still, Order Cleric works as a template too.
Great video as always. My personal favourite at low level is the Tempest Cleric: Heavy armour, martial weapons, access to blasting spells a cleric can't normally cast, can reaction zap enemies that hit them and can auto max damage spells with channel divinity.
Not sure who I would replace in your top five but a low level rogue is very powerful. The extra possibilities with your cunning action is super powerful offensively and defensively since you can "kite" out your enemies. Your extra damage for sneak attack is on par with other melee damage dealers. Low HP is a bit concerning but in my experience you never get touched. Maybe a tie with the gloom stalker. Good video, thanks for content.
My personal experience has not shown the monk to be nearly as weak a class as it reads on paper. In my Tomb of Annhilation game, we accidentally made an all-melee party featuring a battlemaster, conquest paladin, PAM hexblade, berserker barbarian, and kensei monk. The monk player took Variant Human and the mobile feat and thereafter consistently proved the most powerful asset on the team, as his mobility, kiting ability, and even tanking(dodge as bonus action is insanely good) were unmatched. His damage was second only to the fighter. Maybe in a normal party he would have been somewhat weaker, but that monk filled many roles well, especially the role of ranged weapon.
Dodge as a bonus action would be really good. However, with monk it's dodge with a bonus action and a ki point, and since Monk is relying on that bonus action for another attack, it's even a greater opportunity cost.
Absolutely right about the moon druid. Played one with a party and he was so strong that he had to stop playing and become part of the lore. Son of a God who lead the party. Bear transformations all day long and took out a hydra by himself at lvl 5. Then polymorph the party into T-Rex at later levels. It was a blast. Nothing compares!
Excellent topic, this offers lots of insights not only for character design but for GMs as well. Gives a very clear snapshot of class capabilities. You could go further and list a top 8, or do it for every three or four levels instead of five. Great series
Gotta agree on the light cleric, first round of combat today (level 3) and i radiance for 21 full damage on one veteran and save on the other, destroyed the 6 mastiff mooks and cast spiritual weapon to hit one vet. I felt bad for my poor gm as that encounter was over as my party mopped up
What I do is it's still an action, but once your pet starts attacking an enemy, it continues until the enemy is down or you give it another command. Works pretty well.
I find it funny (and I agree completely) that with all of the attention and seeming advantages of the CHA casters in 5e, that at this tier the WIS casters represent so well.
All the advantages of the CHA caster is basically summed up by two words - Hexblade Multiclass. As straight classes both Wizards and Clerics are generally better.
Part of the reason CHA classes get so much hype is they also get social interactions. Wisdom skills are also great but they don't seem as important to a lot of players because they are usually passive and not part of RP, outside of maybe insight that is under used
@@Mr911superstar that's on other people. I use Survival as and Insight as much as possible, as a means of gathering information that the DM has, and isn't in the original reading. Another one that I've made lots of use of is Animal Handling, along with (land) vehicles. Overall, I think that the easy of multiclassing the CHA classes has a lot to do with it. I know that I often see the Sorcadin or Pallock builds that everyone things is going to be the uber-duber. They're often quite solid, but don't necessarily out perform anything that's well built. A single class WIS caster, that's put together with a bit of thought, is often the most dominating presence in first tier play (not if they waste slots with healing spells).
Yeah, it's weird, I don't have a sync problem when I watch it, but I had a few comments this week about this. Not sure why, I don't record my video and audio separately or anything...
While I agree with the placement of moon druid, I do feel like it is worth mentioning that the wild shape hitpoints aren't equivalent to normal hitpoints, because the AC of beasts is low enough that you will get hit significantly more often.
That’s the point, they soak up the damage keeping others alive. Out of Hp, second wild shape. After that short rest do it again and you still have own HP!
@@DavidAnderson-by6zw well, yeah. My point was that you can't count the hitpoints of a brown bear the same way you count the hitpoints of an 18 AC fighter, because the fighter gets hit a lot less. I totally agree they are a damage sponge.
The good thing about God Wizard parties (or better, Wizard parties in general) is that they aren't locked to a support role - if they need direct damage or single target removal, they can add some to their arsenal. It's actually similar to how you want to play the God Wizard in general - if your group is different, other kinds of support is needed.
An interesting list and thought provoking. Monk, don't think it is worse, don't think it is best, although it is way to easy to find "sucky" subclasses. Min/Max is a dangerous game when DMs are not creating worlds where there are different situations. Go dungeon crawling through caves that have passages that are 6' high and 4' wide..Good luck great weapon wielder, what are you going to do in a fight? These things only really should work in an open field where you have plenty of room to use it. How good is a fighter without their armor or a wizard that has had his spell book destroyed or damaged? Is plate armor a rare and expensive commodity? If DMs don't provide upgrade paths via magic items and solely rely on existing tables than yes, many classes can become weak and trivial over time. On the other hand if the DM requires 10% of an armor's value to be spent on maintenance on a weekly basis or suffer degradation in its AC, the monk and rogues armor-less more attractive. These pros and cons should go into the adventure and allow some classes to shine in certain moments and be punished in others and vice versa. On the worst front I find Sorcerer's and with the exception of the Gloomstalker Ranger some of the worst characters in the game as they do nothing well that others can't do better either with damage/utility. Ranger's terrain ability is the absolute worst, they can't even track any better than someone else. Sorcerers meta-magic basically sucks unless you want to be a buff bot or a 1 shot wonder. (Question: if Sorcerers are inherently magical, why do they have to cast like a wizard using somantic and verbal components? ) That is is how wizard's access their powers. To me allowing sorcerer's to cast without the words and gyrations would more than balance for having less spells and the ability to cast ritual spells which provides so much utility and help to a party out of combat where players spend most of their time. It would give great role play and differentiate them from a role-play issue. It would make them valuable if the party had to jump of a sinking ship and the fighters would have to lose their armor and the mage might damage/lose their spell book. Trade-offs should matter more in games otherwise it is easy to min/max and characters can easily be over-shadowed because of poor design decisions that are clearly not consistent in the books IMHO.
Love you treatmonk. Keep going strong. To me your analysis is just as valuable as Coville's, Webdm' s, or Some of the others. You are a true optomancer. Your advice on character builds is so good that as a DM I fear one of my players discovering you and wrecking my fights. Could you perhaps make a video series on how to challenge your various builds as a DM?
Low-level bards get Bane, which hits enemies' attack rolls. Storm sorcerers get a bonus action fly speed that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when using thunder or lightning damaging spells. This lets them use close range spells like Thunderwave without putting thrmselves in as much danger. Beast Masters have a variety of choices for companions, some of which are surprisingly strong like giant poisonous snakes. Alchemists are designed to be a support caster, not a blaster or a tank. Bards fall into this category, too. Monks are a weird mix of abilities. Sun soul fixes the monk's issue of being required in melee to be effective, and if we're pointing out simple ranged weapons, most characters can use light crossbows and those beat out almost every damage cantrip available.
Personally my vote is the Bannerett/Purple Dragon Knight. It is incredibly poor throughout all 20 levels. Totally Lackluster. Total D ranking in my opinion.
The only Sorcerer that isn’t terrible at low levels is the Divine Soul Sorcerer and that’s because you can get access to the Cleric spell list which gives you access to some great lower level spells.
Dragon sorc gets pretty significant defensive options for low levels. I think its impossible to argue that any sorc is better than the divine soul at high levels but I think the hp and ac are enough to make them good at low levels.
The first time I played D&D the party started without any equipment. Without weapons, armor, or spell components only one character shined during this dangerous, timed, night-time stealth adventure: my wife's level one halfling monk.
I definitely agree with the high rank on Light cleric. Current campaign that I'm DM'ing has one, and they bring so much combat capability at low-levels, that they can completely overshadow the other characters in the party. It has all the expected benefits from the cleric (armor, shield, access to heal spells, bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, etc) and merges those with some domain spells that provide blast capabilities that are usually restricted to sorcerers or wizards without requiring any multi-class shenanigans. It wasn't mentioned in the video, but their Warding Flare reaction ability is extremely helpful too, giving them even more defensive boost than most other clerics enjoy. I realize that it's benefit will likely taper off at higher levels as foes start to get multiple attacks per round, but in the level 1-5 range, this is really useful ability.
monk has 1 OP ability that no other class has magic hands not only will this allow him to punch a ghost but it allows him to grab a ghost (ghost have no grapple skill so you auto succeed)
Sun soul monk works great in undead heavy campaigns, because their default sunbolt attack is radiant, so it does double damage against many types of enemies. In Curse of Strahd it's wonderful for destroying undead, vampires, etc, etc. Also really cool for roleplaying, which I know treantmonk never cares about.
@@davidlindsay5905 hey :) unless you are drastically houseruling stuff here this is note true for core dnd 5e. Zombies, ghouls, ghasts, and many other garden variety undead have no particular vulnerability to radiant damage. Shadows ARE vulnerable to radiant damage. Vampires take radiant damage from exposure to sunlight, but are not particularly vulnerable to any other sources of radiant damage. So unless explicitly stated by a monsters' stat block they just take the normal radiant damage - making the sun soul suck ^^
@@ryanflorian2047 i cant tell for sure if this is meant as a joke or reference. So i will take it seriously :) Nothing in the material that i am aware of or could find implies that this is the case, please let me know where you got that info from. Quite the contrary, "unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage." its STRIKES only, and only to overcome resistance and immunity, and explicitly only for that purpose. RAW there is nothing even allowing you to grapple at all! Most DMs (me included) would allow this under "rule of cool" as long as the ghost isnt explicitly immune to grapples. but even when allowing it why would it auto succeed? a creature not being able to grapple you (IE cause it has no arms or jaws) doesnt mean it cant take a save to get your of your grapple.
Well, I kinda disagree with monk. Having a bonus attack is great (double with flurry), not every character has polearm mastery, the armor class can be mitigated by rolling well on scores (I agree with point-buy this is harder, but monk is like a go-to class when getting good rolls). As for alchemist, at level 5 he is pretty strong, +int mod to fire/acid/healing spells is VERY useful. Before that, sure.
+3 to +4 on healing and damage spells is usually about the same as upcasting those spells with one higher spell level slot. This is a nice boost, but it’s a boost that is completely dependent on the small amount of artificers spell slots. Artificer level 5: 6 spell slots. 2 2nd level and 4 1st level slots. Cure wounds would heal avg of 84 hitpoints. Any lvl 5 full caster: 9 spell slots. 2 3rd level spell slots, 3 2nd level spell slots, 4 first level spell slots. If using cure wounds, heals avg if 99 hitpoints. I think giving the alchemist the ability to have its cantrips deal half damage on a successful save would have beefed up the alchemist to an acceptable level. I also think the artificer class as a whole needs more ritual spells, possibly new ones. As a half caster they run out of slots quickly, and rituals could represent very well the ingenuity of an artificer if given time to solve the problem.
@@TreantmonksTemple I mean ure quite right on most of it. It's just that I was playing monk this last year and all the attacks really pay off. It's pretty much double or (triple) the attacks a normal char would do, but the lack of defense is bad on poor stats. Agree on all the rest.
@@binolombardi actually ure forgetting about cantrips, +int to firebolt and acid splash at level 5 is nasty, trust me. I mean, it might still not be eldritch blast level, but other subs have to wait til like level 8 or something to get mod to cantrips. Also healing word with twice the mod is very nice - only artificer class that has such good healing. Plus the experimental elixir u can remove the randomness by using a spell slot. The infusions are also worth at least a slot each, prob more due to being permanent effects.
kensei monks are pretty good early as they have access to +2 bonus ac. buy level 4 you could have 17 base ac pretty easily with point buy and the right race (wood elf), and you get 19 ac when you do a weapon attack and an unarmed attack on the same turn. thats really solid ac for that level. Plus if you are fighting archers which are super common in certain campaigns if the do manage to hit you (especially early in campaigns), you get deflect missiles which makes it really hard for an enemy archer to do significant damage to you. Plus kensei monks get access to better weapons then other monks. So you get to output a lot of damage especially at level 5 when you can make 2 weapon attacks and 2 unarmed strikes with flurry of blows or you can add a d4 to the damage to each your weapon attacks with kensei shot, which is useful if you just want to keep your distance and attack with a bow, which is nice since the kensei monk can use a long bow.
There is one class that can have even more hit points than a moon druid at those levels, but they're a lot harder to use. Warlocks can cast false life at will with one of their invocations. At will. So get your 8 temp hit points, get shot by a goblin, cast it again. Get stabbed by an orc, cast it again. Get bit by a wolf, cast it again. In theory, infinite hit points but only if you're taking damage in really small increments and have time to charge back up.
I think your critique of the Sun Soul Monks radiant attack to e "too simple". Radiant damage versus piercing damage, granted the piercing is higher but the radiant doesn't require you carrying ammunition and very few creatures have resistance to radiant damage. Barbarians, skeletons and many other adversaries are resistant to physical and or piercing damage. Speaking of skeletons and undead in general; zombies and skeletons don't stay down after all there HP is gone "Undead Fortitude. If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5+the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead" "Regeneration - If the vampire takes radiant damage or damage from Holy Water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn" It's usefulness doesn't just stop at undead, most evil, demons, devils and dark aligned creatures are vulnerable to different degrees. It does just as much as a monks fist attacks and scales in damage with these attacks and can be used freely when you gain the extra attack option. Sorry but this ability is way better than you make it seem.
currently playing a level 9 light cleric, can confirm it's great for blasting and its a pretty tough class to bring down, at level 1 i had 18 ac and 12 hp and with warding flare you can give disadvantage to attacks against you with your reaction wisdom modifier times per day, and that helps a lot especially at lower levels. And its level 2 you get radiance of the dawn.
I'm a bit surprised by the focus on defense. I understand it on frontliners but often positioning covers you against many types of enemies; prone is great vs. most ranged enemies and simply moving constantly can keep you out of melee enemies' reach especially if they're not willing to eat a bunch of OAs. In my experience, you want a couple of big casters with e.g. Sleep in the party on level 1; Wizard is of course the best (especially since Wizard has such amazing ritual casting where you don't need to prepare the spell you ritual so you get your Unseen Servants, Detect Magics and Find Familiars for free) but Lore Bard is also huge. Cutting Words I find is more than enough for defense and it can help allies, and I think that's probably the best Bardic Inspiration-like ability on these levels. Add to that Magical Secrets on 6 and i think they keep on strong; getting Counterspell and e.g. Animate Dead, Revivify, or Fireball on a Bard is huge (depending on what you need to be doing).
I'm running an Enchanter Wizard because of your recommendation right now and Hypnotic Gaze is so much better than I thought it would be. The ability to us my Bless from one level of Cleric and then pick a big brute to just not participate is so much better than I thought it would be. Still level 3, but wow. I wouldn't call her weaker than the barbarian at this level.
Running an Alchemist (level 7) with a Bag of Tricks (item, uncommon) and Pipes of Haunting (lvl 6 infusion) that is slaying it in both damage and crowd control. The Alchemist can be effective in combat but give up on trying to do that with weapons or cantrips. Just use infusions like Pipes or other uncommon, non-attunement items you can craft to get in your combat spells/damage. Obviously, this is a level 1-5 video, so keep in mind these items/infusions kick in at 6-10 range.
Bag of Tricks (tan) and Pipes of Haunting are both awesome items. I would note however that as uncommon magic items, they would be 200gp and 2 weeks crafting if you use Xanathar's item creation for any PC. Of course, it is DM dependent what crafting they allow, but still...
@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks for the reply! 100% agree. Alchemist's actual play-ability kicks in at level 10, when they can craft the items at 1/2 cost and 1/4 price. Though any crafting is still DM dependent, so you have to have that chat. Which is to say, your video is right. It's not very effective for levels 1-5.
Apologies if you have already done this Treantmonk, but the hate on monks is pretty strong (justified too) but have you done a video or made a completely homebrewk monk class, reworked from the ground up? I'd be interested to see how you would make it better (or if you already have and I've missed this video)
I once did over 400 damage and accidentally vaporised most of a small villages population with a light cleric at second level. We were in a court room and long story short everyone broke out into a free for all brawl bar fight style. I said I’d use radiance of the dawn and rolled 20 damage, there were over 20 people in the room and most were commoners and well everyone died it was pretty brutal
Maybe I'm making a mistake, but did you mean oathbreaker paladin? You refer to the channel divinity fear that is only one save, but I believe that is oathbreakers. Conquest's channel divinity allows for a save at the end of each of their turns.
@@TreantmonksTemple haha, oh man, I wish conquerers had the oathbreaker's frighten cd, that would be so nuts with their aura. As is, they're a decent pally subclass 1-5, their less good frighten cd is still decent mob cc, which paladin base class is somewhat lacking, and they've got some decent oath spells between armor of agathys, hold person, and especially spiritual weapon. I wouldn't call them the best pally subclass at those levels though. I'd probably point to vengeance instead, for its even better oath spells with hunter's mark, hold person, and misty step, plus the cd for advantage is a great offensive boost that can offset gwm penalties, help fish for crits with PAM builds, or even help sentinel-enhanced opportunity attacks land for tanky setups.
Starting a D&D game with a couple of friends and 2 of them called dips on classes I usually play. Thanks to your video, I will be the last one laughing.
You're saying that other classes only close in after 5th level when there's more physical resistances coming in but guess what, a 6th level wildshape (cr2 ofc) does magical attacks for the sake of overcoming resistance... Basically martial classes won't catch up.
I think his point is that at around 5th level martial classes start outdoing the feral form, but the moon druids can keep ahead through spells, especially summoning. The problem being that non shepherd druid summons don't get magic attacks so this starts losing out.
Whispers bard isn't a combat focused class that doesn't mean its weak it just stronger out of combat. I have found it to be very good in urban investigative/exploration games
Personally I think the bonus action 10ft flying disengage(x9/day) is a little more useful than Draconoc Ancestry and 5 more HP for a low level Sorcerer. Especially when fighting Orcs, swarms, or Undead.
I find it ironic that you listed the Druid at the top. Perhaps you should list the Land Druid in some of the trap picks for levels 6-10. As it's bonus spells don't often give it the versatility that cleric domains get. And it's 6th and 10th features are basically just ribbons that can easily never show up in a campaign. So you end up with a Druid subclass that's only real ability is having a version of the wizard's arcane recovery feature. And it's basically meant to carry you through the whole game.
100% agree with monk being the worst. I am frustratingly flimsy!! And the damage I deal next to everyone else in the party Is laughable. Everyone pressures me to do hit and run tactics...but with 2 ki point disengages and not much damage it's actually just not feasible. I'm currently at level 3, and at 4 im going to take the mobility feat to allow me to be able to effectively hit and run to try and boost my survivability.
That's why I said Fuck it, took a longbow (Wood elf) and became the best archer of the party (not very hard once my companions are a druid, a paladin and a melee fighter)
I still disagree with his opinion about monks, yes the stunning strike has an effect that is a little bit less than some spells. But there is no spell you can use 4 times a round. I know you burn through your ki points tgat way. But you regain them at a short rest and you can shut everybody down on turn one, swinging combat in your favour or burning through legendairy saves
A monks medium AC is also counter by there ability to take the dodge action as a bonus action. They become damn near unhittable at low levels. They also have way more consistent damage with option of 3 attacks in a turn.
Jorg H Hard agree on this. Had a combat where the party was down a player in the first round of combat and we were outnumbered by some absolute killers. We probably would have ended up with at least one character death if not two-- but our Monk got four successes out of Stunning Strike in one turn and with a party full of nova we were able to end the combat in the following two rounds without further difficulty. Considering we were deep in enemy territory and had no natural out, it essentially saved us from a TPK.
These are just my opinion of course, but I would point out that although you generally only cast one spell per round, you can often affect 4 targets or many more with a single spell, with a higher chance of success.
@@TreantmonksTemple yes, completly true. But if you need to target 1 creature and must make sure it is stunned a monk can force it to make multiple saving throws. Spells only once. I get all your points about monks but having some experience in playing monks myself they can be used very tacticly to completly shut down a target. The multiple saving throws in a single turn and 1 fail makes it lose a turn is in my opinion more reliable than spells until very high levels.
So why light over tempest? Their both trying to acomplish the same things with their respective channel divinities. Lvl1 tempest clerics have thunderwave (fun to use their channel with) and shatter at level 3 (SUPER FUN to use their channel with). They also get heavy armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency (both betrer than light cleric). Idk man..... did you choose light because they only need to use their channel vs. a tempest cleric needing a channel and a spell slot? Id like to hear your thoughts!!!
I think the draconic sorcerer should get a pass. At first lvl could start with 15 ac, for free, take shield for 20 on reaction, and you have some points of health to boot. And yeah thats a big diference between life or dead. At 3rd lvl, burn a 2 lvl spell for more sorc points and "twin" or "quick" to your heart content.
Hey Treantmonk, this was a great video! I certainly agree with much you had to say in this video, earlier levels for the class/subclass combos you’ve mentioned in the first half of the video certainly have it rough for their campaign career. There was one mistake I did happen to hear when watching the video. In the case of the Way of the Sun Soul Monk, and that was the interaction with their special attack option they can use. After using their special attack option, they can spend a ki point to two more attacks using the special attack, as opposed to the one attack that you said in the video. I still agree though that it’s not a great feature, it has an awful 30 ft range, and the only way to utilize the bonus action ranged attacks is to use the ranged attack as an action and burn a ki point, a resource that you have very little of. Thank god ki points come back after a short rest am I right? XD Thanks again for the video, I know I’m a little late to watching them, but I enjoy watching them the same. I’ll be sure to keep up with any new vid’s you drop in the future!
"Most 2nd level characters have maybe 20 hit points"!? That doesn't seem right. Maybe a fighter or Barbarian but the rest would struggle to reach that without getting max rolls on their level up hit point roll. Awesome video though!
If we are going off the mechanics of the class and how often the abilities might get used is really on the player and DM. I think the whispers bard is an amazing subclass and has some amazing role play abilities. We have had friends use this class and do many great things with it and it's abilities. If we are talking about an infiltration character wow what potential. Even the damage out isn't bad with 2d6 psy. Damage isn't bad. Also bards should really be using ranged to their advantage at lower levels just like all the other classes. This is the problem I see with many of the ranking videos. It's all about the mechanic and numbers. Basically how good are they in combat. Combat is really only one part of the game. If that is what your group is focusing on then we get it. But there are other parts of the game like exploring, travel, talking to the towns people, and much more. I think that focusing on just the combat aspect is almost like making D&D a video game like world of War warcraft or some final fantasy game. D&D is much more that and all those classes can really be fun even at those low levels. Although we do appreciate the video and the work you put into it. Keep up the good work.
I would replace Oath of Conquest with Oath of Vengeance, but that can be just personal preference. and not really part of this list but want to say Mood Druid at level 20 are beyond OP ;)
I feel bad for Monk if it already hit the #1 worst spot list at the lowest levels. I feel like it's going to be in the list a few more times in the upcoming videos. The only time it might not make the list is 6-10...
No mention of Echo Knight as one of the best subclasses? The ridiculous utility of the echo, most of which is front-loaded, on top of the solid chassis of Fighter, plus multiple burst damage options between Action Surge and Unleash Incarnation...
IMO despite tiers 1-4 is the true distinction. At level 5 things change a lot. For example, a level 4 Cleric is okay. A level 5 Cleric reeeeaally powerful due to Spirit Guardian.
I cant agree with the artficer alchemist being worst the a beast master ranger or ever being on this worst list i might be biased because I've played a couple and I really enjoy them at all levels of play and a fifth level you're adding your intelligence modifier to acid fire necrotic poison damage so your cantrips aren't unmodified there whatever they are plus your intelligence that goes for any of the damaging stuff you get are those types and to your healing plus free magic items with infusion
To be fair, I don't think anything is unplayable at low levels, and the difference between best (or maybe 2nd best, as Moon Druids are astounding) and worst is a lot smaller at this point.
Aren't all full casters super powerful at high levels, not just wizards? Unless you are engaged in a dungeon crawl from hell or just constantly going from fight to fight, which most campaigns don't do, I don't see much difference between them all.
Art at level 2 can have a +1 repeating crossbow how is that not good at early levels o.o assuming a 14 in dex it would be a d8+3 (with light or 1d10+3 for heavy) not amazing sure but can also have a +1 to a.c. o.o
I am curious, if you were going to do a level 1-20 campaign (assuming that it actually went through), which class/subclass would you select if you wanted to be, on average, the strongest?
You said the moon druid sufferers against enemies with resistance to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning, but that's wrong since at level 6 you get Primal Strike: "Starting at 6th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."
@@TreantmonksTemple While true, you could focus on the main abilities of the class without the subclass features. What anyone of that class is guaranteed to have. Like Bards having ritual casting at low levels, all barbarians having rage, etc.
@@fortello7219 some classes function extremely poorly without their subclasses but those pack a lot of power (ie artificer) while other dont need their subclasses to do much to be powerful (bard/paladin) and for some subclasses change everything about how a class functions making them essentially different classes entirely. (Hexblade, whispers etc)
I used to think that monks were the worst class early on, and that may still be true, but I think there is a major caveat. Do you roll for stats or not? Because monks are super incredibly depending on good stat rolls in order to be effective. You really need something like 16 dex and 16 wisdom. As long as your using a weapon early on in conjunction with your bonus action attack, you able to put out quite respectable damage. If your don't roll for stats, or gods forbid use standard array, then yeah you early levels are going to suck.
YohSL He’s discussed it elsewhere, but monks’ AC and HP isn’t where it needs to be for frontline fighters, and their ki points run out really fast; also, most martials have access to damage-boosting feats like sharpshooter and great weapon master-the monk had none of that.
I am actually in disagreement with the Monk being at #1worse all together. I played a woodelf monk by lvl 5 my GM wanted to ban the combo. LvL 1 17dex 14con 16wis for 16 AC at lvl 1. By lvl3 LongDeath 6 extra HP per kill. Now being able to take elf accu at lvl 4 now 18dex 17ac and every time I do adv its 3d20 crits roll out for 2 attacks 1D8+4 spear and a punch 1D6+4 at +6 to hit crit crit crit because it's Dex not Brute Str and advatage on a target gets 3 dice. Moving at 45 up to 45 +45dash+45ki dash you can catch or reposition what ever you would like. Second skill Fear third skill full out offense no mater what 1ki = nope didn't die.
I have to disagree about Monk being part of the worse. Open Hand Monks are so useful on Low Level battle, giving free advantage for melee. Good Multiclass candidate as you can have a huge contribution on removing Legendary Resistances EARLY. Kensei Monks, are great on weaponry and can convert most str based weapons be Dex Based. Plus has better AC, than most characters this early(ofcourse when properly optimized) Shadow monk gives good support once used well on Ki Spell use. 4 elements monk, has good ki spells for atks Drunken Master is like the Swasbuckler counterpart. Sun soul monk, gives free long range atks w/o any limit, but on Low damage early. Long death gives free heal, granted your able to last hit enemy. As a base Monk, they are useful, but be mindful on ki use. And at Lvl 5, Stun IS A GAME CHANGER
You need to make a monk build or guide. You always rag on it (probably rightfully so) but it is still one of my favourite classes just because of the flavour.
his recommendation from the monks suck video (many month later) lv2 warlock lv 18 monk. ignore the 18 levels and play as if they dont exist. well maybe you could do some flurry of blows + stunning strike bonus actions till your Ki runs out 3 turns later xD but the other 95% just EB for days :P
Sun soul monk being so bad is incredibly sad to me, because the art for it is super cute in the game. However, I think the subclasses that use Ki are the worst, since they add insult to injury by eating into your main class resource. Sun soul monk can at least use their lasers without using ki. Shout out to Trickery Cleric. I think the only remotely defensible part is the Polymorph spell. Below level 7, you have no polymorph.
Ki restores on a short rest, gives you bonus action dodge and at 5 a minimum 3 chances on your turn to stun vs a actual threat. Sun souls first feature part is weak at low levels because the strength (attack action spell attacks that trigger all your options and changes damage type to radiant) has no opportunity to interact as enemies dont have actions like parry or resistances in general at that point. Trickery gives a better but slower project image spell as its level 2 (1 day duration of limited slot vs CD is relatively close in practical function), effectively grands a ally a better+non attunement boots of elvenkind for free and by raw RAW has the most potentially powerful subclass capstone (multiplying the aoe for all self aoe spells by 4) if you manage to get access to higher level spells of another class (as clerics self aoe spells are concentration and its only good non-mc use that arent done by the base duplicate is for having 12 mirror images and making the first blink of Blink be a combat map ranged teleport).
18:00 Radiance of Dawn is only available from 2nd level, not 1st level.
Was just about to comment that, good catch !
Thanks for the call-out Chris, it’s a pleasure being part of the Treantmonk community.
Thanks Christian! Looking forward to playing Sunday!
I recently tried a Bladesinger Wizard in a campaign. I think the Bladesong abilities help wizards a lot in the low levels. You can even become the party's frontline avoidance tank while Bladesong is active and you have slots for Shield and/or Absorb Elements, plus your melee damage with Booming Blade/ Green Flame Blade and Absorb Elements secondary effect is a non trivial contribution
Bladesinger depends a lot on stats. If you rolled three 18s, Bladesinger is flat out broken, but if you have underwhelming stats it's not as good. Better to make a Cleric and wear heavy armor, or a Druid and Wildshape.
Currently playing a bladesinger (just hit level 4) Some decent rolls for stats have me with an 18 in Int and Dex, so it's definitely strong. On the front lines, but when you get hit you really feel it.
eh, Bladesingers have good AC which matters especially in the early levels, but the issue is that a bladesinger has not gotten the high ability scores expected of a bladesinger (that actually really boost AC) at the early levels, unless you rolled extremely well. Still decent tho no lie.
@@wasteoftime41 I'm all about the one level Artificer dip for my wizard builds now!!
Bladesinger works best if you largely ignore the melee capabilities and just play the character as a high-defense wizard -- unless you get some stupidly OP magical item drop like a Belt of Storm Giant Strength or a Moonblade.
I'm surprised there was no honorable mentions or acknowledge for the other classes. I would have personally mentioned the fighter at least, which is extremely solid at levels 1-5.
It is a bit odd you would clump lvl 5 with lvls 1-4 as there's a huge difference at lvl 5 due to extra attack/lvl 3 spells/etc. Regardless, I feel that monks do not get enough credit at the super low levels. Using your standard comparison vs hexing eldritch blast warlock, a monk deals 13 dpr on average compared to 12 for the warlock (2h quarterstaff + unarmed strike), so for zero resources the monk is above average in terms of damage.
laughs in fighter
the problem is that you are con-pairing a class with spells to one without
@@jonahpeacock2561 Except the Warlock is spending spells on Hex to get that DPR, while the Monk in the damage analysis isn't even using their Ki. So the Monk's DPR is higher, and more sustainable.
I just don't get it with monk…
At lvl 1 he has 2HP less than fighter (13 vs 11), same AC (both 16), no problems with stealth, no need to have good gear (Qstaf or spear is enough), best offense in game (1d8+3 and 1d4+3 each turn for free), free hand to interact all the time.
At lvl 2 he can use 2 ki points (which recharge at short rest). Let's compare this to fighter's action surge - with Ki, you can have 2 extra attacks per short rest - with AS you can have 1 extra attack (so 2d6+3 vs 2d4+6 - almost the same), with Ki you can dodge twice, with AS only once, with Ki you can dash/disengage twice - with AS only once, so all in all, Ki seems better. And later, the gap is even bigger - Ki increases every level, AS not. Also, you get 10ft extra movement, which is great even defensively.
At lvl 3 monk doesn't get too much, but deflect misiles are great defensive ability (also can be used to do me dmg). 3 times per short rest free prone/push/no reaction is not bad at all - similar to BM's manuevers, only with fewer DMG - Still nothig tragic.
It is realy importatnt, that monk is not too MAD (he also doesn't need any feats), so he can easily start with 16 in dex, con and wis for good offense and defense, nice HPs.
100 % this. I just got done playing an Open Hand Monk at lower levels and she had no problem mixing it up as well as the armored tank fighters in the party., often doing MORE damage to the enemy in a given combat because she could get at least one bonus attack every round. She could flit through the enemy ranks, hitting them all in turn with Stunning Strike when she had ki or knocking them prone/canceling their reactions when she didn't, setting them up very well for the rest of the party, She was a lot more fun and interesting to play in combat than any fighter or ranger or paladin I've played.
I Agree ! I play a non-Good Protetor Aasimar Way of the Long Death Monk.
At level 3, when I use Radiant Soul, I can add +level to any one damage I deal on that turn, which adds a lot.
On a regular round, with Martial Arts, you have two attacks at that level. Three with Flurry of Blows.
At level 5, you have extra attack, so on a regular round you have three attacks, four with flurry.
At level 5, using a spear with both hands, that translates into 4 attacks with +7 (+3 proficiency + 4 dexterity), dealing (1d8+4 piercing damage) + (1d8+4 piercing damage) + (1d6+4 bludgeoning damage) + (1d6+4 bludgeoning damage), not to mention the +5 radiant damage that goes into one of those attacks that hits (it rarely is wasted, since you need at least one hit to connect for it to work).
I know you usually don't hit all the attacks (unless you are attacking weaker minions, which is something you can easily do moving around between attacks with your Unarmored Movement), but if you manage to hit all attacks, you are dealing 2d8 + 2d6 + 21, AVG 37 damage, which is a nice damage overall and you only expended 1 ki point, an easily replenished short rest resource that you already have 5 on a pool. This is way lower than a Greatsword fighter with action surge (2d6 + 4, 4 times: 8d6 + 16), AVG 44 slashing damage (or bludgeoning, if Maul), but most Fighters will only have 1 usage of Action Surge during a short rest, while the 5th level monk can do it 5 times. And it increases each level.
This also works wonders with Touch of Death: if you managed to kill someone, you get 5 Temporary HP, which isn't great by itself at that level, but it is free, easily obtained, easily reapplied and free, therefore always a win. It also made RP sense, since my character likes to suffocate his enemies to drain the essence of their last breath.
My party always allowed me the last hit on foes because of that reason (which translates into more THP).
The toughest fights I had were the ones that there weren't weaker foes, denying me the Touch of Death ability.
I'm not saying Monk is the best class, but 1-5 levels is a really good spot for them. Except Sun Soul. It is just garbage.
Something that I think gets taken for granted is judging a class by how it performs at high levels while ignoring its performance at lower levels.
You still have to survive the lower levels to reach higher levels! Also, most campaigns are not going to take place at higher levels.
Moon Druids are my bet for most fun class: You can pretty much help the party out in any situation, sneaking, scouting, healing, tanking, battlefield control, utility spells and wildshape forms.
One thing I find that players often forget about moon druids is how a large shapeshift form can be hard to manage inside a dungeon. Specially if there are more melee in the group that can literally be left standing still because the moondruid usually have more initiative than a heavy armor user. Still absurdly strong, but can be party unfriendly (also the player can't speak/RP while in shapeshift)
Ghostwise halfling race gives you telepathy so you can still RP while in wild shape
@@HITxTHExSNooze sure, but we really can't expect every moon druid to be one.
There are some decent medium options for wildshape too, but I agree that the best forms are large. I always play a ghostwise halfling if I'm a Moon Druid - but I'm halfling obsessed.
Next game I play I'm gonna get a melee to take mounted combatant while I take moon druid. I'll let him ride me into combat. He won't feel useless then!
The crazy part about this is that I just got done playing up to a lvl 9 Sun soul monk, and let me tell you, I probably died around 5 times before this final death due to the character being super weak. So I completely feel this.
Edit: after thinking of this problem. For a while I believe that the answer to having a decent ranged attack on your monk, is to either pick up the feat mage initiate and grab a cleric cantrip or grab 1-2 lvls of light cleric.
Hey WotC, you know how you gave rangers a boost with gloom stalker.....how about just fix all of the monk. I love the monk. I believe its a decent class. But it's way behind other classes and could be easily fixed with just a few minor changes.
I feel that I should mention my thoughts on warlocks and monks. I believe that the designers of 5e intended for both the monk and warlock to be controllers who refresh in ways akin to the martial classes. They have stated before that they intended for short rests to be much more common than they are now. If groups did use short rests more often than they do, I believe monks and warlocks could be reasonably effective, if a bit odd. However, this does not excuse them from designing these classes from (as far as anyone can find) having only one damage effective playstyle for their standard abilities. The hexblade, to me, is a great way to counteract this problem because it finally gives an option to be truly effective without expending resources.
LOL....I didn't even realize Hexblade went past level Two 🤣
1-5 will always be the most important levels for my games. It eases my Players into their archetypes and lets them learn the mechanics. ( I start them at level three) so everyone has their subclasses down. (Casual players and mostly one shots).
Another correction: light clerics get their channel divinity Radiance of the Dawn at level 2 not 1. All clerics get CD at level 2.
Just a small Corerction on the Sun soul: "When you take the Attack action on your turn and use this special attack as part of it, you can spend 1 ki point to make the special attack twice as a bonus action." (direct quote from XGE) Also the Damage scales with your Martial Arts die ("This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.") and can be doine twice per Attack action with Extra attack.
Monk are still really weak on low levels, and probably come into their own around lvl 7 or so, where you get evasion and can spend 2-3 ki points per encounter.
You still only have one bonus action, so being able to do it twice doesn't change anything action economy-wise
I think there is a misudnerstanding from the Phrasing: You can attack twice, with a single bonus action. It is basically "flurry of blows" but for the radiant sun bolt.
Radiant sun bolt is meant to be the Monk Melee attack but at range. It is a "ranged spell attack" so you cant stunning striek with it ir benefit from any other Weapon or melee related feature with it.
The way I read that is you use your bonus action and ki point to make two attacks (instead of one attack) using your attack action.
@@TainakaRicchan It being a spell attack from dex tho does make sun monk 3 a functional "attack trigger dip" for already MC-ed out high dex casters (or druids as it lets bear mouth lazor) as it benefits from rod of the war mage and doesnt depend on the monk restriction to be unarmored for ki usage.
@@TreantmonksTemple I can see where this reading is coming from, but but that would mean, that you spend Ki, as a bonus action, to modify another action (you are already taking). All other monk features are either "Spend ki to do x as a bonus action" or "you may spend ki to enhance this action" (where the spending of the ki is no action). I thin kRadiant sun bolt is simply worded somewhat poorly.
As far as absorbing damage, the Artillerist Artificer is arguably the best at levels 3-5 because of the Protector Eldritch Cannon. 1d8+Int Mod temporary HP to itself and all creatures you choose within 10 feet EVERY ROUND for an HOUR is an insane amount of damage reduction for your whole party, especially against swarms of weak enemies (which is common in tier 1) that often can't take out that temp HP in 1 hit. If the enemies target the cannon, it has 18 AC, and as mentioned grants itself that temp HP as well, so it's a tanky distraction.
I'm surprised you didn't mention any Barbarian on the list.
At low levels you are facing a lot of weapon damage, and rage ends up roughly doubling your HP. Barbarians can also hit more reliably than other characters through Reckless Attack.
I really thought you would appreciate their high offense and defense.
Totem (Bear) Barbarian are straight monsters at early levels. Basically doubling entire health pool cause psychic damage is ultra rare at low level. Current party has a high dex, high con, and using a shield as a tank. 19 AC with 56 HP and Resistance at lvl 5 is no joke.
@@swordsman111982 While 100% mega true for longer games, id actually say Ancestral and Storm (tundra) are better if its a 1-4 session game/games that dont scale above level 6-7 as ancestral more than doubles the party hp while Storm fills the bonus action if you aint feating up to do so.
ANDELE3025 Tundra does seem pretty potent, my next campaign has a Goblin Tundra Barbarian as its main tank. It will be cool to see what it can do
Frenzy barbarians are easily the nastiest barbarian at low levels. A v. Human (and less so a half-orc) frenzy barbarian is capable of going one on one with a moon druid of the same level in this range, and have a decent chance of winning.
@@jonathandean2625 Vhuman does proportionally little for frenzy barb. Power attack alone is great ofc but at least 1/3rd the value of GWM is in its pseudo cleave/bonus action on crit n kill attack which is wasted on frenzy.
Small correction - Conquering Presence has a save at the end of each turn. I’d think Vengeance with Vow of Enmity would be higher.
I prefer Oath of Vengeance, too - especially with an Elf/Half-Elf and Elven Accuracy at level 4
Kostas Moschovas If it’s only lvl 1-5 VHuman PAM+GWM probably gives you more value.
Auto-Advantage for 10 rounds. Yep. Fish for crits and Smite!
Yes, I goofed and mixed up the Oathbreaker channel with Conquest.
@@M0ebius Your example works only with three weapons, though. It's a very good option but covers less builds. With Elven Accuracy, you could even go for a multiclass dual wield build
If we accept CR content (featured on D&D Beyond) Lycan Bloodhunter is even worse than Sun Soul Monk. You are essentially a barbarian who needs to constantly hurt themselves to get the damage, your transformation is far weaker than Rage (less melee damage, a gap in your nonmagical BPD resistance...) and to add insult to injury, your max HP is essentially cut in half as you have to save each round or be forced to kill your allies if you're under.
Lycan bloodhunter is very difficult to use, that's true
Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the Order Cleric never made the "best" list, but it is a bit dependant on other characters in the party being powerful as well. Order cleric and paladin, or Order cleric and rogue is a BEAST of a combo, even at very low levels. Healing Word is already a stupidly powerful spell as it is, but an order cleric can weaponize it without using any more of their own resources than just the cost of casting the spell itself. If you are in a party with some really good martial damage dealers, then Order Clerics are completely busted. I thought Swashbuckler Rogue might make the best list as well, given their ability to consistently get sneak attack *and* avoid getting attacked at lower levels.
Closest thing we have to 4e's Warlord
@@xthebumpx This class and maybe the Valor Bard? Just trade off Voice of Authority with Dissonant Whispers and the same net effect can be achieved. Maybe even more damage dealt to the target. Meanwhile, there's Inspiration to boost attack rolls or bump ACs. There's Faerie Fire to provide advantage. Healing, Temp HPs, 2 attacks etc... There are many similarities. Still, Order Cleric works as a template too.
Great video as always. My personal favourite at low level is the Tempest Cleric: Heavy armour, martial weapons, access to blasting spells a cleric can't normally cast, can reaction zap enemies that hit them and can auto max damage spells with channel divinity.
Divination wizard is amazing at battlefield control at low levels. Been my favorite build so far.
Thanks for making this. Looking forward to the rest of the series!
Not sure who I would replace in your top five but a low level rogue is very powerful. The extra possibilities with your cunning action is super powerful offensively and defensively since you can "kite" out your enemies. Your extra damage for sneak attack is on par with other melee damage dealers. Low HP is a bit concerning but in my experience you never get touched. Maybe a tie with the gloom stalker. Good video, thanks for content.
Thanks for this interesting topic! It's so useful because oftentimes the campaigns I joined spent most of their time at those levels.
My personal experience has not shown the monk to be nearly as weak a class as it reads on paper. In my Tomb of Annhilation game, we accidentally made an all-melee party featuring a battlemaster, conquest paladin, PAM hexblade, berserker barbarian, and kensei monk. The monk player took Variant Human and the mobile feat and thereafter consistently proved the most powerful asset on the team, as his mobility, kiting ability, and even tanking(dodge as bonus action is insanely good) were unmatched. His damage was second only to the fighter.
Maybe in a normal party he would have been somewhat weaker, but that monk filled many roles well, especially the role of ranged weapon.
Dodge as a bonus action would be really good. However, with monk it's dodge with a bonus action and a ki point, and since Monk is relying on that bonus action for another attack, it's even a greater opportunity cost.
Absolutely right about the moon druid. Played one with a party and he was so strong that he had to stop playing and become part of the lore. Son of a God who lead the party. Bear transformations all day long and took out a hydra by himself at lvl 5. Then polymorph the party into T-Rex at later levels. It was a blast. Nothing compares!
Excellent topic, this offers lots of insights not only for character design but for GMs as well. Gives a very clear snapshot of class capabilities.
You could go further and list a top 8, or do it for every three or four levels instead of five. Great series
Gotta agree on the light cleric, first round of combat today (level 3) and i radiance for 21 full damage on one veteran and save on the other, destroyed the 6 mastiff mooks and cast spiritual weapon to hit one vet. I felt bad for my poor gm as that encounter was over as my party mopped up
For the best master in my group, I just moved the command to a bonus action.
What I do is it's still an action, but once your pet starts attacking an enemy, it continues until the enemy is down or you give it another command. Works pretty well.
I find it funny (and I agree completely) that with all of the attention and seeming advantages of the CHA casters in 5e, that at this tier the WIS casters represent so well.
All the advantages of the CHA caster is basically summed up by two words - Hexblade Multiclass. As straight classes both Wizards and Clerics are generally better.
Part of the reason CHA classes get so much hype is they also get social interactions. Wisdom skills are also great but they don't seem as important to a lot of players because they are usually passive and not part of RP, outside of maybe insight that is under used
@@Mr911superstar that's on other people. I use Survival as and Insight as much as possible, as a means of gathering information that the DM has, and isn't in the original reading. Another one that I've made lots of use of is Animal Handling, along with (land) vehicles.
Overall, I think that the easy of multiclassing the CHA classes has a lot to do with it. I know that I often see the Sorcadin or Pallock builds that everyone things is going to be the uber-duber. They're often quite solid, but don't necessarily out perform anything that's well built. A single class WIS caster, that's put together with a bit of thought, is often the most dominating presence in first tier play (not if they waste slots with healing spells).
MOebius will dip Hexblade with anything, Cha or not, and profit.
Treantmonk's Temple Actually it’s more like if I dip Hexblade I’m maxing Charisma, regardless of what my base class is.
The voice seems to be bit out of synch of the video in this one.
glad somepne else has commented on this, i thought i was going mad - seemingly most peope are not seeing any syncing issues
Yeah, it's weird, I don't have a sync problem when I watch it, but I had a few comments this week about this. Not sure why, I don't record my video and audio separately or anything...
@@TreantmonksTemple Most likely it's on TH-cam's side when they encoded the upload. I've had that happen before.
While I agree with the placement of moon druid, I do feel like it is worth mentioning that the wild shape hitpoints aren't equivalent to normal hitpoints, because the AC of beasts is low enough that you will get hit significantly more often.
That’s the point, they soak up the damage keeping others alive.
Out of Hp, second wild shape. After that short rest do it again and you still have own HP!
@@DavidAnderson-by6zw well, yeah. My point was that you can't count the hitpoints of a brown bear the same way you count the hitpoints of an 18 AC fighter, because the fighter gets hit a lot less. I totally agree they are a damage sponge.
Please let us know how the Archmage-level one shot goes.
I'm curious how an all god-wizard parties fares. :)
Did the first one yesterday, it went very well. Lol - 3 familiars! They definitely were not prepared for some of the curve-balls I threw in ;)
Yeah, the problem with an all god wizard party is that god wizards need minions to do the hard hitting for them.
We had exactly one tank 😅
The good thing about God Wizard parties (or better, Wizard parties in general) is that they aren't locked to a support role - if they need direct damage or single target removal, they can add some to their arsenal. It's actually similar to how you want to play the God Wizard in general - if your group is different, other kinds of support is needed.
An interesting list and thought provoking. Monk, don't think it is worse, don't think it is best, although it is way to easy to find "sucky" subclasses. Min/Max is a dangerous game when DMs are not creating worlds where there are different situations. Go dungeon crawling through caves that have passages that are 6' high and 4' wide..Good luck great weapon wielder, what are you going to do in a fight? These things only really should work in an open field where you have plenty of room to use it. How good is a fighter without their armor or a wizard that has had his spell book destroyed or damaged? Is plate armor a rare and expensive commodity? If DMs don't provide upgrade paths via magic items and solely rely on existing tables than yes, many classes can become weak and trivial over time. On the other hand if the DM requires 10% of an armor's value to be spent on maintenance on a weekly basis or suffer degradation in its AC, the monk and rogues armor-less more attractive. These pros and cons should go into the adventure and allow some classes to shine in certain moments and be punished in others and vice versa. On the worst front I find Sorcerer's and with the exception of the Gloomstalker Ranger some of the worst characters in the game as they do nothing well that others can't do better either with damage/utility. Ranger's terrain ability is the absolute worst, they can't even track any better than someone else. Sorcerers meta-magic basically sucks unless you want to be a buff bot or a 1 shot wonder. (Question: if Sorcerers are inherently magical, why do they have to cast like a wizard using somantic and verbal components? ) That is is how wizard's access their powers. To me allowing sorcerer's to cast without the words and gyrations would more than balance for having less spells and the ability to cast ritual spells which provides so much utility and help to a party out of combat where players spend most of their time. It would give great role play and differentiate them from a role-play issue. It would make them valuable if the party had to jump of a sinking ship and the fighters would have to lose their armor and the mage might damage/lose their spell book. Trade-offs should matter more in games otherwise it is easy to min/max and characters can easily be over-shadowed because of poor design decisions that are clearly not consistent in the books IMHO.
Yes, this. I totally agree that there is no situational considerations taken in the video's evaluation of class "good/bad"-ness.
Love you treatmonk. Keep going strong. To me your analysis is just as valuable as Coville's, Webdm' s, or Some of the others. You are a true optomancer. Your advice on character builds is so good that as a DM I fear one of my players discovering you and wrecking my fights. Could you perhaps make a video series on how to challenge your various builds as a DM?
A couple weeks ago I did a video on DMing optimisers. That's what you're looking for I think
What about long death Monk? at early levels the ability to gain level+Wis temporary hp every time you drop an opponent to 0 is really good.
Low-level bards get Bane, which hits enemies' attack rolls.
Storm sorcerers get a bonus action fly speed that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when using thunder or lightning damaging spells. This lets them use close range spells like Thunderwave without putting thrmselves in as much danger.
Beast Masters have a variety of choices for companions, some of which are surprisingly strong like giant poisonous snakes.
Alchemists are designed to be a support caster, not a blaster or a tank. Bards fall into this category, too.
Monks are a weird mix of abilities. Sun soul fixes the monk's issue of being required in melee to be effective, and if we're pointing out simple ranged weapons, most characters can use light crossbows and those beat out almost every damage cantrip available.
Personally my vote is the Bannerett/Purple Dragon Knight. It is incredibly poor throughout all 20 levels. Totally Lackluster. Total D ranking in my opinion.
The only Sorcerer that isn’t terrible at low levels is the Divine Soul Sorcerer and that’s because you can get access to the Cleric spell list which gives you access to some great lower level spells.
Dragon sorc gets pretty significant defensive options for low levels.
I think its impossible to argue that any sorc is better than the divine soul at high levels but I think the hp and ac are enough to make them good at low levels.
kaemon bonet I agree. Low levels the Draconic AC overrides the expanded spell list.
@@M0ebius But the 2d4 for to saving throws is really nice. If you are going for a mc build divine soul or shadow sorc all the way though
playing with a monk 3-5...you NEED the movie feat. being able to run away from a enemy and have to worry about being attacked is a great thing
The first time I played D&D the party started without any equipment. Without weapons, armor, or spell components only one character shined during this dangerous, timed, night-time stealth adventure: my wife's level one halfling monk.
I definitely agree with the high rank on Light cleric. Current campaign that I'm DM'ing has one, and they bring so much combat capability at low-levels, that they can completely overshadow the other characters in the party. It has all the expected benefits from the cleric (armor, shield, access to heal spells, bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, etc) and merges those with some domain spells that provide blast capabilities that are usually restricted to sorcerers or wizards without requiring any multi-class shenanigans. It wasn't mentioned in the video, but their Warding Flare reaction ability is extremely helpful too, giving them even more defensive boost than most other clerics enjoy. I realize that it's benefit will likely taper off at higher levels as foes start to get multiple attacks per round, but in the level 1-5 range, this is really useful ability.
Dishonorable mention every monk class.
*laughs in kensei monk*
monk has 1 OP ability that no other class has
magic hands
not only will this allow him to punch a ghost but it allows him to grab a ghost
(ghost have no grapple skill so you auto succeed)
Sun soul monk works great in undead heavy campaigns, because their default sunbolt attack is radiant, so it does double damage against many types of enemies. In Curse of Strahd it's wonderful for destroying undead, vampires, etc, etc. Also really cool for roleplaying, which I know treantmonk never cares about.
@@davidlindsay5905 hey :) unless you are drastically houseruling stuff here this is note true for core dnd 5e.
Zombies, ghouls, ghasts, and many other garden variety undead have no particular vulnerability to radiant damage. Shadows ARE vulnerable to radiant damage. Vampires take radiant damage from exposure to sunlight, but are not particularly vulnerable to any other sources of radiant damage.
So unless explicitly stated by a monsters' stat block they just take the normal radiant damage - making the sun soul suck ^^
@@ryanflorian2047 i cant tell for sure if this is meant as a joke or reference. So i will take it seriously :)
Nothing in the material that i am aware of or could find implies that this is the case, please let me know where you got that info from. Quite the contrary, "unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to non-magical attacks and damage." its STRIKES only, and only to overcome resistance and immunity, and explicitly only for that purpose. RAW there is nothing even allowing you to grapple at all! Most DMs (me included) would allow this under "rule of cool" as long as the ghost isnt explicitly immune to grapples. but even when allowing it why would it auto succeed? a creature not being able to grapple you (IE cause it has no arms or jaws) doesnt mean it cant take a save to get your of your grapple.
Well, I kinda disagree with monk. Having a bonus attack is great (double with flurry), not every character has polearm mastery, the armor class can be mitigated by rolling well on scores (I agree with point-buy this is harder, but monk is like a go-to class when getting good rolls). As for alchemist, at level 5 he is pretty strong, +int mod to fire/acid/healing spells is VERY useful. Before that, sure.
What would you say is the weakest class/subclass at these levels?
+3 to +4 on healing and damage spells is usually about the same as upcasting those spells with one higher spell level slot. This is a nice boost, but it’s a boost that is completely dependent on the small amount of artificers spell slots.
Artificer level 5: 6 spell slots. 2 2nd level and 4 1st level slots. Cure wounds would heal avg of 84 hitpoints.
Any lvl 5 full caster: 9 spell slots. 2 3rd level spell slots, 3 2nd level spell slots, 4 first level spell slots. If using cure wounds, heals avg if 99 hitpoints.
I think giving the alchemist the ability to have its cantrips deal half damage on a successful save would have beefed up the alchemist to an acceptable level.
I also think the artificer class as a whole needs more ritual spells, possibly new ones. As a half caster they run out of slots quickly, and rituals could represent very well the ingenuity of an artificer if given time to solve the problem.
@@TreantmonksTemple I mean ure quite right on most of it. It's just that I was playing monk this last year and all the attacks really pay off. It's pretty much double or (triple) the attacks a normal char would do, but the lack of defense is bad on poor stats. Agree on all the rest.
@@binolombardi actually ure forgetting about cantrips, +int to firebolt and acid splash at level 5 is nasty, trust me. I mean, it might still not be eldritch blast level, but other subs have to wait til like level 8 or something to get mod to cantrips. Also healing word with twice the mod is very nice - only artificer class that has such good healing. Plus the experimental elixir u can remove the randomness by using a spell slot. The infusions are also worth at least a slot each, prob more due to being permanent effects.
kensei monks are pretty good early as they have access to +2 bonus ac. buy level 4 you could have 17 base ac pretty easily with point buy and the right race (wood elf), and you get 19 ac when you do a weapon attack and an unarmed attack on the same turn. thats really solid ac for that level. Plus if you are fighting archers which are super common in certain campaigns if the do manage to hit you (especially early in campaigns), you get deflect missiles which makes it really hard for an enemy archer to do significant damage to you.
Plus kensei monks get access to better weapons then other monks. So you get to output a lot of damage especially at level 5 when you can make 2 weapon attacks and 2 unarmed strikes with flurry of blows or you can add a d4 to the damage to each your weapon attacks with kensei shot, which is useful if you just want to keep your distance and attack with a bow, which is nice since the kensei monk can use a long bow.
16:16 Paladins get channel divinity at level 3 not 2. Excellent video as always though of course.
There is one class that can have even more hit points than a moon druid at those levels, but they're a lot harder to use. Warlocks can cast false life at will with one of their invocations. At will. So get your 8 temp hit points, get shot by a goblin, cast it again. Get stabbed by an orc, cast it again. Get bit by a wolf, cast it again. In theory, infinite hit points but only if you're taking damage in really small increments and have time to charge back up.
Nice video concept! Great to see the things ordered like this (in discription too). Already looking forward to the others :)
I think your critique of the Sun Soul Monks radiant attack to e "too simple". Radiant damage versus piercing damage, granted the piercing is higher but the radiant doesn't require you carrying ammunition and very few creatures have resistance to radiant damage. Barbarians, skeletons and many other adversaries are resistant to physical and or piercing damage. Speaking of skeletons and undead in general; zombies and skeletons don't stay down after all there HP is gone
"Undead Fortitude. If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5+the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead"
"Regeneration - If the vampire takes radiant damage or damage from Holy Water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn"
It's usefulness doesn't just stop at undead, most evil, demons, devils and dark aligned creatures are vulnerable to different degrees. It does just as much as a monks fist attacks and scales in damage with these attacks and can be used freely when you gain the extra attack option.
Sorry but this ability is way better than you make it seem.
Great observations. I think I'm really going to like this best and worst series.
I would love to argue your assessment of 'worst' subclass, I really would. But I don't think I can.
Thank you, Chris. Excellent work as always. I was hoping you'd talk about some low-level multiclasses too.
No, in this series I'm going to be just talking straight class/subclasses.
@@TreantmonksTemple it is OK I own a multiclass hammer so most answers I give, when asked, involves multiclass. It is just how my dice roll.
currently playing a level 9 light cleric, can confirm it's great for blasting and its a pretty tough class to bring down, at level 1 i had 18 ac and 12 hp and with warding flare you can give disadvantage to attacks against you with your reaction wisdom modifier times per day, and that helps a lot especially at lower levels. And its level 2 you get radiance of the dawn.
I'm a bit surprised by the focus on defense. I understand it on frontliners but often positioning covers you against many types of enemies; prone is great vs. most ranged enemies and simply moving constantly can keep you out of melee enemies' reach especially if they're not willing to eat a bunch of OAs. In my experience, you want a couple of big casters with e.g. Sleep in the party on level 1; Wizard is of course the best (especially since Wizard has such amazing ritual casting where you don't need to prepare the spell you ritual so you get your Unseen Servants, Detect Magics and Find Familiars for free) but Lore Bard is also huge. Cutting Words I find is more than enough for defense and it can help allies, and I think that's probably the best Bardic Inspiration-like ability on these levels. Add to that Magical Secrets on 6 and i think they keep on strong; getting Counterspell and e.g. Animate Dead, Revivify, or Fireball on a Bard is huge (depending on what you need to be doing).
I'm running an Enchanter Wizard because of your recommendation right now and Hypnotic Gaze is so much better than I thought it would be. The ability to us my Bless from one level of Cleric and then pick a big brute to just not participate is so much better than I thought it would be. Still level 3, but wow. I wouldn't call her weaker than the barbarian at this level.
Try Artificer 1 Enchanter X for Sanctuary + Hypnotic Gaze. I learned that today on the Treantmonk discord and seems like a sick combo.
@@M0ebius I mean a bit late now but thanks.
I am not as familiar with the RAW balance from all the Homebrew I do so this is super useful!!
I bet!
Running an Alchemist (level 7) with a Bag of Tricks (item, uncommon) and Pipes of Haunting (lvl 6 infusion) that is slaying it in both damage and crowd control.
The Alchemist can be effective in combat but give up on trying to do that with weapons or cantrips. Just use infusions like Pipes or other uncommon, non-attunement items you can craft to get in your combat spells/damage.
Obviously, this is a level 1-5 video, so keep in mind these items/infusions kick in at 6-10 range.
Bag of Tricks (tan) and Pipes of Haunting are both awesome items. I would note however that as uncommon magic items, they would be 200gp and 2 weeks crafting if you use Xanathar's item creation for any PC. Of course, it is DM dependent what crafting they allow, but still...
@@TreantmonksTemple Thanks for the reply! 100% agree. Alchemist's actual play-ability kicks in at level 10, when they can craft the items at 1/2 cost and 1/4 price. Though any crafting is still DM dependent, so you have to have that chat.
Which is to say, your video is right. It's not very effective for levels 1-5.
Apologies if you have already done this Treantmonk, but the hate on monks is pretty strong (justified too) but have you done a video or made a completely homebrewk monk class, reworked from the ground up? I'd be interested to see how you would make it better (or if you already have and I've missed this video)
I once did over 400 damage and accidentally vaporised most of a small villages population with a light cleric at second level. We were in a court room and long story short everyone broke out into a free for all brawl bar fight style. I said I’d use radiance of the dawn and rolled 20 damage, there were over 20 people in the room and most were commoners and well everyone died it was pretty brutal
Maybe I'm making a mistake, but did you mean oathbreaker paladin? You refer to the channel divinity fear that is only one save, but I believe that is oathbreakers. Conquest's channel divinity allows for a save at the end of each of their turns.
I didn't, I was actually mistaken that the abilities were the same
@@TreantmonksTemple haha, oh man, I wish conquerers had the oathbreaker's frighten cd, that would be so nuts with their aura. As is, they're a decent pally subclass 1-5, their less good frighten cd is still decent mob cc, which paladin base class is somewhat lacking, and they've got some decent oath spells between armor of agathys, hold person, and especially spiritual weapon. I wouldn't call them the best pally subclass at those levels though.
I'd probably point to vengeance instead, for its even better oath spells with hunter's mark, hold person, and misty step, plus the cd for advantage is a great offensive boost that can offset gwm penalties, help fish for crits with PAM builds, or even help sentinel-enhanced opportunity attacks land for tanky setups.
Starting a D&D game with a couple of friends and 2 of them called dips on classes I usually play. Thanks to your video, I will be the last one laughing.
You're saying that other classes only close in after 5th level when there's more physical resistances coming in but guess what, a 6th level wildshape (cr2 ofc) does magical attacks for the sake of overcoming resistance... Basically martial classes won't catch up.
I think his point is that at around 5th level martial classes start outdoing the feral form, but the moon druids can keep ahead through spells, especially summoning. The problem being that non shepherd druid summons don't get magic attacks so this starts losing out.
The video and audio is a bit out of sync, has been for a few videos recently. Are you using the clap technique audio video syncing?
I actually don't record video and audio separately. Weird, when I watch it the sync seems ok.
Yeah looks fine to me... check your internet connection
I haven't experienced as such
@@NoNoNah306 my TH-cam has been randomly choppy the past few weeks
It seems fine to me... try refreshing the page? If you’re on mobile, reload the entire app; if you’re on desktop, open the video again in a new tab.
Whispers bard isn't a combat focused class that doesn't mean its weak it just stronger out of combat. I have found it to be very good in urban investigative/exploration games
Personally I think the bonus action 10ft flying disengage(x9/day) is a little more useful than Draconoc Ancestry and 5 more HP for a low level Sorcerer. Especially when fighting Orcs, swarms, or Undead.
I find it ironic that you listed the Druid at the top. Perhaps you should list the Land Druid in some of the trap picks for levels 6-10. As it's bonus spells don't often give it the versatility that cleric domains get. And it's 6th and 10th features are basically just ribbons that can easily never show up in a campaign.
So you end up with a Druid subclass that's only real ability is having a version of the wizard's arcane recovery feature. And it's basically meant to carry you through the whole game.
Keep in mind I am specifically calling out the Moon Druid - which is really tough starting at level 2 even without spells.
100% agree with monk being the worst.
I am frustratingly flimsy!! And the damage I deal next to everyone else in the party Is laughable.
Everyone pressures me to do hit and run tactics...but with 2 ki point disengages and not much damage it's actually just not feasible.
I'm currently at level 3, and at 4 im going to take the mobility feat to allow me to be able to effectively hit and run to try and boost my survivability.
That's why I said Fuck it, took a longbow (Wood elf) and became the best archer of the party (not very hard once my companions are a druid, a paladin and a melee fighter)
I still disagree with his opinion about monks, yes the stunning strike has an effect that is a little bit less than some spells. But there is no spell you can use 4 times a round. I know you burn through your ki points tgat way. But you regain them at a short rest and you can shut everybody down on turn one, swinging combat in your favour or burning through legendairy saves
A monks medium AC is also counter by there ability to take the dodge action as a bonus action. They become damn near unhittable at low levels.
They also have way more consistent damage with option of 3 attacks in a turn.
Jorg H Hard agree on this. Had a combat where the party was down a player in the first round of combat and we were outnumbered by some absolute killers. We probably would have ended up with at least one character death if not two-- but our Monk got four successes out of Stunning Strike in one turn and with a party full of nova we were able to end the combat in the following two rounds without further difficulty. Considering we were deep in enemy territory and had no natural out, it essentially saved us from a TPK.
These are just my opinion of course, but I would point out that although you generally only cast one spell per round, you can often affect 4 targets or many more with a single spell, with a higher chance of success.
@@TreantmonksTemple yes, completly true. But if you need to target 1 creature and must make sure it is stunned a monk can force it to make multiple saving throws. Spells only once. I get all your points about monks but having some experience in playing monks myself they can be used very tacticly to completly shut down a target. The multiple saving throws in a single turn and 1 fail makes it lose a turn is in my opinion more reliable than spells until very high levels.
Hi! Love your videos! Especially the variants. Will you do the Xanatars subclass variants any time soon?
So why light over tempest? Their both trying to acomplish the same things with their respective channel divinities. Lvl1 tempest clerics have thunderwave (fun to use their channel with) and shatter at level 3 (SUPER FUN to use their channel with). They also get heavy armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency (both betrer than light cleric). Idk man..... did you choose light because they only need to use their channel vs. a tempest cleric needing a channel and a spell slot? Id like to hear your thoughts!!!
Making a hill dwarf gloomstalker ranger. And making him a sort of take on a modern US Army Ranger veteran. Only a Underdark Ranger Regiment. Thoughts?
I think the draconic sorcerer should get a pass. At first lvl could start with 15 ac, for free, take shield for 20 on reaction, and you have some points of health to boot. And yeah thats a big diference between life or dead. At 3rd lvl, burn a 2 lvl spell for more sorc points and "twin" or "quick" to your heart content.
Sunsoul Ki point ability is flurry of blows from range so two attacks not one. And it improves with monk dmg die
Hey Treantmonk, this was a great video! I certainly agree with much you had to say in this video, earlier levels for the class/subclass combos you’ve mentioned in the first half of the video certainly have it rough for their campaign career.
There was one mistake I did happen to hear when watching the video. In the case of the Way of the Sun Soul Monk, and that was the interaction with their special attack option they can use. After using their special attack option, they can spend a ki point to two more attacks using the special attack, as opposed to the one attack that you said in the video.
I still agree though that it’s not a great feature, it has an awful 30 ft range, and the only way to utilize the bonus action ranged attacks is to use the ranged attack as an action and burn a ki point, a resource that you have very little of. Thank god ki points come back after a short rest am I right? XD
Thanks again for the video, I know I’m a little late to watching them, but I enjoy watching them the same. I’ll be sure to keep up with any new vid’s you drop in the future!
"Most 2nd level characters have maybe 20 hit points"!?
That doesn't seem right. Maybe a fighter or Barbarian but the rest would struggle to reach that without getting max rolls on their level up hit point roll.
Awesome video though!
If we are going off the mechanics of the class and how often the abilities might get used is really on the player and DM. I think the whispers bard is an amazing subclass and has some amazing role play abilities. We have had friends use this class and do many great things with it and it's abilities. If we are talking about an infiltration character wow what potential. Even the damage out isn't bad with 2d6 psy. Damage isn't bad. Also bards should really be using ranged to their advantage at lower levels just like all the other classes.
This is the problem I see with many of the ranking videos. It's all about the mechanic and numbers. Basically how good are they in combat. Combat is really only one part of the game. If that is what your group is focusing on then we get it. But there are other parts of the game like exploring, travel, talking to the towns people, and much more. I think that focusing on just the combat aspect is almost like making D&D a video game like world of War warcraft or some final fantasy game. D&D is much more that and all those classes can really be fun even at those low levels.
Although we do appreciate the video and the work you put into it. Keep up the good work.
I would replace Oath of Conquest with Oath of Vengeance, but that can be just personal preference. and not really part of this list but want to say Mood Druid at level 20 are beyond OP ;)
I feel bad for Monk if it already hit the #1 worst spot list at the lowest levels. I feel like it's going to be in the list a few more times in the upcoming videos. The only time it might not make the list is 6-10...
Monk is going to have a bad time I'm afraid. I don't relish in it, but that's the way I see it.
No mention of Echo Knight as one of the best subclasses? The ridiculous utility of the echo, most of which is front-loaded, on top of the solid chassis of Fighter, plus multiple burst damage options between Action Surge and Unleash Incarnation...
It’s probably still too new at this point to accurately place it
Isn't it UA?
Anthony Norman It’s official content, albeit not AL-legal
@@ariechriswell2669 ah, my mistake
I actually did consider Echo for top 5 - and maybe it's my lack of experience with the class, but I bumped it for the 5 presented here.
IMO despite tiers 1-4 is the true distinction. At level 5 things change a lot.
For example, a level 4 Cleric is okay. A level 5 Cleric reeeeaally powerful due to Spirit Guardian.
I cant agree with the artficer alchemist being worst the a beast master ranger or ever being on this worst list i might be biased because I've played a couple and I really enjoy them at all levels of play and a fifth level you're adding your intelligence modifier to acid fire necrotic poison damage so your cantrips aren't unmodified there whatever they are plus your intelligence that goes for any of the damaging stuff you get are those types and to your healing plus free magic items with infusion
To be fair, I don't think anything is unplayable at low levels, and the difference between best (or maybe 2nd best, as Moon Druids are astounding) and worst is a lot smaller at this point.
Aren't all full casters super powerful at high levels, not just wizards? Unless you are engaged in a dungeon crawl from hell or just constantly going from fight to fight, which most campaigns don't do, I don't see much difference between them all.
I spend most time at level 1-2, so this is good.
Is this list with Tasha's in mind? Wondering if those would change this list a little? New clerics seem very strong as does the new wildfire druid
No, this video was pre-tasha's.
Art at level 2 can have a +1 repeating crossbow how is that not good at early levels o.o assuming a 14 in dex it would be a d8+3 (with light or 1d10+3 for heavy) not amazing sure but can also have a +1 to a.c. o.o
Treant, have you ever played SWtOR or Eve online? Vanilla WoW? You seem like an oldschool mmo guy
Ca-vee-uts? I’ve never heard it pronounced that way but I’m not going to argue with this genius.
I am curious, if you were going to do a level 1-20 campaign (assuming that it actually went through), which class/subclass would you select if you wanted to be, on average, the strongest?
Probably Wizard (Chronurgist) if available. Wizard (War Mage) is also really, really good.
Thank you! I look forward to seeing the rest of these!
Conquest paladin's fear has a save after every round. It isn't just 1 save.
Yes, my mistake, I must have been thinking about the Oathbreaker fear ability.
Opinions on the new UA Wizard subclass? Where do you think it ranks among the other subclasses we have so far?
I answered you on twitter right?
@@TreantmonksTemple yes you did!
You said the moon druid sufferers against enemies with resistance to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning, but that's wrong since at level 6 you get Primal Strike:
"Starting at 6th level, your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."
non-shepherd druids conjure animal summons do not have magical attacks. that is what he was talking about.
I think for your next part in this series, or perhaps as a bonus video, you should list the 13 classes in *general* for use from levels 1-5.
That's a lot harder - as you can see from my Ranger picks, there's a big variance based on your subclass selection
@@TreantmonksTemple While true, you could focus on the main abilities of the class without the subclass features. What anyone of that class is guaranteed to have. Like Bards having ritual casting at low levels, all barbarians having rage, etc.
@@fortello7219 some classes function extremely poorly without their subclasses but those pack a lot of power (ie artificer) while other dont need their subclasses to do much to be powerful (bard/paladin) and for some subclasses change everything about how a class functions making them essentially different classes entirely. (Hexblade, whispers etc)
I used to think that monks were the worst class early on, and that may still be true, but I think there is a major caveat. Do you roll for stats or not? Because monks are super incredibly depending on good stat rolls in order to be effective. You really need something like 16 dex and 16 wisdom. As long as your using a weapon early on in conjunction with your bonus action attack, you able to put out quite respectable damage.
If your don't roll for stats, or gods forbid use standard array, then yeah you early levels are going to suck.
YohSL He’s discussed it elsewhere, but monks’ AC and HP isn’t where it needs to be for frontline fighters, and their ki points run out really fast; also, most martials have access to damage-boosting feats like sharpshooter and great weapon master-the monk had none of that.
I am actually in disagreement with the Monk being at #1worse all together. I played a woodelf monk by lvl 5 my GM wanted to ban the combo. LvL 1 17dex 14con 16wis for 16 AC at lvl 1. By lvl3 LongDeath 6 extra HP per kill. Now being able to take elf accu at lvl 4 now 18dex 17ac and every time I do adv its 3d20 crits roll out for 2 attacks 1D8+4 spear and a punch 1D6+4 at +6 to hit crit crit crit because it's Dex not Brute Str and advatage on a target gets 3 dice. Moving at 45 up to 45 +45dash+45ki dash you can catch or reposition what ever you would like. Second skill Fear third skill full out offense no mater what 1ki = nope didn't die.
Woop guess im gonna make a sun soul monk next 1-3 shot lol, any suggestions for worst race to pair it with?
(Rolling 3d6 fixed per stat)
Dragonborn. Not a great race, even worse as a monk. You're welcome?
@@TreantmonksTemple thanks m8
I don’t think any cleric gets their channel divinity at 1st level...
I have to disagree about Monk being part of the worse.
Open Hand Monks are so useful on Low Level battle, giving free advantage for melee. Good Multiclass candidate as you can have a huge contribution on removing Legendary Resistances EARLY.
Kensei Monks, are great on weaponry and can convert most str based weapons be Dex Based. Plus has better AC, than most characters this early(ofcourse when properly optimized)
Shadow monk gives good support once used well on Ki Spell use.
4 elements monk, has good ki spells for atks
Drunken Master is like the Swasbuckler counterpart.
Sun soul monk, gives free long range atks w/o any limit, but on Low damage early.
Long death gives free heal, granted your able to last hit enemy.
As a base Monk, they are useful, but be mindful on ki use. And at Lvl 5, Stun IS A GAME CHANGER
You need to make a monk build or guide. You always rag on it (probably rightfully so) but it is still one of my favourite classes just because of the flavour.
I've wanted to, but haven't been able to work a build I'm proud of.
his recommendation from the monks suck video (many month later) lv2 warlock lv 18 monk. ignore the 18 levels and play as if they dont exist.
well maybe you could do some flurry of blows + stunning strike bonus actions till your Ki runs out 3 turns later xD but the other 95% just EB for days :P
Chris, love the videos. When can we expect an Artificer/Chronurgist god build video?
I haven't worked on a chronurgist build yet. If I come up with something I like, I will definitely put it in a video
Sun soul monk being so bad is incredibly sad to me, because the art for it is super cute in the game. However, I think the subclasses that use Ki are the worst, since they add insult to injury by eating into your main class resource. Sun soul monk can at least use their lasers without using ki.
Shout out to Trickery Cleric. I think the only remotely defensible part is the Polymorph spell. Below level 7, you have no polymorph.
It's still a cleric tho
Ki restores on a short rest, gives you bonus action dodge and at 5 a minimum 3 chances on your turn to stun vs a actual threat.
Sun souls first feature part is weak at low levels because the strength (attack action spell attacks that trigger all your options and changes damage type to radiant) has no opportunity to interact as enemies dont have actions like parry or resistances in general at that point.
Trickery gives a better but slower project image spell as its level 2 (1 day duration of limited slot vs CD is relatively close in practical function), effectively grands a ally a better+non attunement boots of elvenkind for free and by raw RAW has the most potentially powerful subclass capstone (multiplying the aoe for all self aoe spells by 4) if you manage to get access to higher level spells of another class (as clerics self aoe spells are concentration and its only good non-mc use that arent done by the base duplicate is for having 12 mirror images and making the first blink of Blink be a combat map ranged teleport).
Clerics are all pretty good at low levels, and Trickery is actually my favorite, but light is soooooo good at low levels.