Folks, I can tell you that I went from a well regarded AB amp to the Stellar S300 (Class D)and it is a wonderful amp. Incredible grip and an overall sweetness that is glorious. I'm using this amp with Class B full range speakers that love power and this amp delivers. The bass grip is something that has to be heard to appreciate. The Absolute Sound did a review of this amp on 1/27/2023 (Neil Nader) and he was effusive in his praise of this amp and wrapped up his review by saying [S-300] ..."enthusiastically recommended without reservation". He also discussed in detail class D and his opinion of it as executed by PS Audio. Worth the read.
@@keithmoriyama5421 Sorry, Stereophile Magazine has an annual recommended components list that itemizes stereo components by various classes A-D. Class A ( finest regardless of price) Class B, etc. etc. so it's a benchmark of sorts....for example, Klipsch Forte iv are "class B"
@@jeffreypicciolo7706 I don’t believe that is the intention of the audio world to rank equipment. It’s usually as follows: 1. High end audiophile 2. Mid level 3. Entry level When people use “class” it’s more related to amplification and the letter means more of a type vs grade. We need to face reality related to US non-industrialization. Heat sinks are expensive. The days of large heat sink amps are limited by cost. I do not know myself the quality of Class D. I’m happy with my Class AB from 30 years ago. The great thing about Class D is tons of watts for a somewhat minimal price. It’s hard to know where manufacturers are going. We have to remember they need to make a profit. Higher margin the better.
@@keithmoriyama5421 he was probably screwed by the TH-cam editor or voice recognition. He probably meant a class B amp with full range speakers. Duh, regular or decaf?☕️
@@jeffreypicciolo7706 Now that is certainly one of the dumbest things I’ve heard. Thanks for the laugh. 🤣 You could almost make that plausible if you try hard enough to convince yourself. I seriously doubt that enough or proper research was done on amplifier outputs and speaker system loads to generate a viable list, considering also that the “quality” of sources and their materials are in the mix as well.
Amplification really isn't a problem anymore. It is the input into the amplification that is crucial. The obsession with linearity and naturalness has diverged into clinical hell.
So true. Somebody would really clean up in the TH-cam industry using blind tests for products and having people come in to determine if it was a Class A, A/B or class D. I could almost guarantee no one would know the difference.
@@bigjay1970 😉yeah it’s funny how you can justify what you’re hearing when you know what it is you’re listening to..😂 that’s why I get a kick out of the dac reviews .. for every extra couple hundred dollars you spend, these guys always find a way to spin that it’s sonically better, when it’s always a subtlety at best; you can observe more difference in volume levels, EQ’s and stage gains over the differences in a lot of these DACs. When I have a good sound coming out of all my sources, analog or digital and I know that any particular one isn’t clearly superior to the other, then I know I’m onto something. I’m just enjoying the music; that’s the point! Paul effectively said as much; if the amp is a synergistic pair with the speaker, it doesn’t matter what class the amp is lol
I have a NAD C-388 which is not as expensive as some units you mentioned in your Video I use a Dynaudio DM 3/7 and its matches very well. I had many systems in the last 54 years but when you get older you prefer more convenience and not looking for absolute sound. So far I don't regret my switch to D.
"Designed properly, it sounds great." Yup, that's just the way my Rogue Audio Sphinx V3 sounds! It's a class D hybrid with tubes - which I guess are what make it sound so good (paired with my Tannoy speakers). The "synergy" must be there because my efficient Tannoy speakers sound very warm and revealing!
I have a much heralded Nad M33. They have a certain thinness in the mids. I would call it a presentation, not a fault. You can get rid of most of the thinness by using Dirac to add a 3db bump from about 250 to 1000kh. Below 250 even Dirac suggest adding a 6db boost. I have Rosso Fiorentino floorstanders, a traditionally warm sounding Italian speaker.
Class D can sound wonderful. I was convinced by hearing an in-store demo. I bought 2 Anthem Statement M1 mono and am still stunned to this day. And I have an love McIntosh, and anthem Class A/b and as well. Ive not heard the psaudio, but if they took the care that anthem did from the ground up, I'd love to hear them and bet they would sound amazing.
LOLZ. 7K Worth of amps better sound decent, rather pick up a used Luxman myself. 'After a good night's sleep to refresh mind and ears, I began listening to music at more sensible levels. The sound was smooth and warm but lacked bite, and wasn't particularly engaging. Most notable was a lack of high-frequency energy, though what was there was quite elegant and detailed.'. Seems not everyone is onboard with you on this one.
I love my NAD M10 class D amp. I Think it depends on the speaker pairing. I think a good match with my Q accoustic concept 500's. I also have other speakers and amps to compare with for reference.
As some other commenters have noted, class D amps respond very differently to peaks and valleys in speaker/crossover impedance. Any speaker no matter the quality is going to sound very different with a class D amp than with a similarly spec'd AB
I have an NAD 3020 D, which is Class D. I use it in a second system and think it sounds amazing. NAD, along with PS Audio, is one of the companies I would trust with Class D.
Class D amplifiers, are based on digital switching Class D amplifiers generate 3rd order harmonic distortion and high frequency noise. That is because the output transistors switch the output to either VDD or ground, the resulting output of a Class D amplifier is a high-frequency square wave. The switching frequency (fSW) for most Class D amplifiers is typically between 250kHz to 1.5MHz. Vacuum tube amplifiers produce pleasant sounding 2nd order harmonics. Which is preferred by most listeners for being. "Lush & Glorious" By placing a vacuum tube buffer stage prior to the Class D electronics the resulting sound is most pleasing to most people. This has been a well known fact for decades. Take a classic Nelson Pass Class A amp ( dry, cold but deadly accurate ). Drive it with a vacuum tube preamp and presto a Lush and Glorious sound.
Dear Jeffrey, a proposal to check: Take some wire wound 5W resistor of say 0.1 or 0.22Ohms and connect it in line with the positive/red output speaker terminal of your class D amp output, the other end to the speaker cable to the positive speaker input terminal - and check the sound now. Background: the speaker is best sounding not at the maximum damping factor available. Damping factor (a reversal value related to the differential source impedance of an amp related to the load impedance) is usually very high with Class D amps hence the output devices are switching and control depends mostly on high negative feedback. That's totally o.k. but can be absolutely too much of a good thing when it comes to real speakers, that worked well and perfectly aperiodically damped on a predecessor amp with less damping. So if you reduce that value, the speaker may sound less over-controlled, thicker...
I recently had two class d amps in my system, one of which was a P S. Audio, which usually is powered by mccormack class a B amps One of these amps sported a tube preamp stage which is classy A and sounds great. However, I find both amps unlistenable compared to my McCormack
Audison are popular amps. Lots of people use them. Installs can be problematic. You have to find a good installer that knows what they are doing, plus the fine tuning. Fine tuning is relative to the type of music you listen to the most. I had my system fine tuned to classical, jazz and blues by the installer. That worked out well for me. Yes I did use a subwoofer, that was fine tuned the same way. Depending on where you live you might not have access to a good installer or at least easy access. I don’t mess with that myself on any level. I also bought everything from one manufacturer except the head unit from a authorized dealer that did the install. That was more than 12 years ago. Back then I looked at a complete McIntosh system including head unit from a McIntosh dealer that also did installs. Expensive..LOL. Way over my budget. How do you like the 165 k2..? They have the Utopia also. Expensive. LOL.
I use a 3 way active focal kx2 components with a utopia mid. I upgraded my Harmotech tube hybrid amps for a 6 channel Zapco AP150.6 and the results are astounding. No glare at the highs, clear and detailed vocals with tight and controlled bass. I’ve heard a friend’s kx3 kit with Mosconi AS amps and they are fantastic too but I prefer my Zapco.
@@davidfromamerica1871 Hi thanks for responding, I do love my 165 k2 it was awesome upgrade from respectfully the JBL gto609c components, you get spoil on the quality of the sound. I still have my JBL gto629 in future get does focal maybe. I had the cxa360.4 kicker amp with an old school EQ clarion 755 with epic center. Little by little trying to go for best quality at a good price. I live in San Diego they have a lot of good stereo shops, thank again
@@xdaggersoul That is the name I couldn’t remember, Zapco..👍🤗😎 I looked at Zapco years ago before Zapco was sold to another company. Zapco Zapco use to be made in California back then. Great amplifier’s. A lot of new improvements in audio have been made since I bought my system 12 years ago. I went with all JLAUDIO amps and speakers from the JLAUDIO dealer that also does installation. A/B Slash series Amps. 4 and a 5 channel amp. One of the main reasons I went with all JLAUDIO was he owns that dealership won several SPL trophies with his JLAUDIO car. He has a lot of various trophies from over the years. I took that system out of my truck several years ago when that truck was traded in. Never had it reinstalled. Just recently my OEM stereo in my car has a speaker short somewhere. I have an old Eclipse head unit and speakers in custom made cabinets. I plan on hooking up the head unit with a 12 volt plug that I’ll plug into the 12 volt cigarette lighter for power. Just use 2 speakers in the back. I have 2 McIntosh 6.5 component speakers in those cabinets I bought years ago. Leave the OEM intact.
Class D can sound really good, but it is rather brighter and thinner on the midrange compared to Classes A and AB . One has to pair it with the right speakers. My Rogue Pharaoh II integrated (tube preamp, class D amp) works well with my neutral KEF 105 but not good enough with my JBL L100.
@@roofpizza1250 I agree but I dont think they have any other class in powered subs. Just plate Class D. I bought an expensive Velodyne sub a few years ago. American brand Made in China of course. It packed up a few months ago and the repair shops told me that the parts are not available anymore.
I haven't used Dirac, but I have heard many people report that the calibration tends to come out sounding too thin for their taste. I wonder if he used Dirac on the new class AB amp as well, or only with the NAD and blamed the class D for something it might not have been responsible for?
Hello Zack - I'm the guy who wrote to Paul. I tried the NAD with and without Dirac. The Dirac made no difference - the NAD always sounded anemic. Given the consistently positive reviews for the NAD M10, I was quite shocked when I heard the amp with my Focals. Paul's explanation makes sense to me. For the price the M10 is loaded with features, and I bet that the class D amp circuitry is not as good as it could be. I've gone back to being very suspicious of subjective equipment reviews!
@@michaelpetkovich5058 What did you end up replacing it with? I haven't heard either in person, but most reviews do seem to say that the NAD stuff is on the lean side. And that Focals tend to run neutral to bright. This is probably a poor combination if both things are true.
@@zackw4941 This is rather embarrassing for a discussion with audiophiles, but I replaced the NAD with an Emotiva T2 integrated amp. It does have a feature that I really wanted (for a good price), and that's great bass management. I can select an output to my sub (SVS 1000) from 40 to 200 Hz, and the amp cuts out the signal to my speakers below the selected value. Here's a subjective judgement - I think the bass response has really improved. The amp is rated from 130 to 200 W, and that's plenty. My listening room is small and speaker sensitivity is well above 90 dB, so I have plenty of power. (Of course, my philosophy is to invest most of my money in speakers.) Is the amp price too low? I'm not sure. It's a direct to customer sale, and it's old technology. In theory, without the middleman, I'm told that the amp would probably (?) be worth about $2200 at a store. My CD player is also inexpensive - an Integra 6 disk changer. It's replacing a dead Sony 200 disk changer - ok, I'm lazy. However, I have a collection of 3,000 jazz and classical CDs, and I want the best sound for my money. I like a full sound, but I also need clarity so I can hear each instrument. I'm thinking of getting a DAC, but the subjective reviews drive me crazy. I've found some nice technical measurements at audio science review, but it's a limited set of DACs. I need more help from Paul.
BTW, I'm pleased with my new sounds, but I'm always looking for system improvements (the audiophile disease). That's the reason for the DAC. My original amp was the Harmon Kardon 5770.
@@michaelpetkovich5058 Don't be embarrassed! If the TA-2 had come out sooner, than I might have bought it and called it quits there.. And saved a lot of money. My first foray into "high end" speakers was a pair of JBL Studio 580's, on sale for $600. I also already had a cheap pair of powered Dayton Audio 12" subs. I was driving everything with an SMSL AD18 for a while. Then I got the TA-1 and it was a noticeable step up. The TA-1 has similar bass management, which is largely what drew me in. But the TA-1 only has a fixed crossover point at 90hz, which is obviously too high. When I used the crossover, the sound of my speakers was improved remarkably! In part because the TA-1 is still a little under powered. The imaging wasn't too bad because my cheap subs couldn't produce anything above 80hz. But I was noticing that 80-90hz gap.. So my next step was a bigger one. I picked up a pair of SVS SB3000's. These could be dialed in flat from under 20hz up to whatever I needed. Now I had awesome bass and that gap was gone.. But filling in that gap up to 90hz meant that I could localize the subs and the sound stage kind of came apart running the subs in mono. In steps one of my friends with a Schiit Vidar. Using an external amp with the TA-1's crossover pre-outs, I was able to run the subs in stereo and the Vidar wiped the floor with the TA-1 internal amp as well. I wash so close to start I thought was the perfect sound. But it was still too obvious that the mids and highs were coming from the speakers and the lows were coming from the subs because of that 90hz crossover. So I returned the subs and saved up for a pair of Tekton Moabs, which I am now running with a Parasound Hint 6. This setup kicks ass, but it's already double start I had wanted to spend and now I'm addicted to the high end and want more. (PS, I was already into LCD-4 headphones before all this speaker stuff started, so I know what good sound is.) If I hadn't been so stubborn about the crossover and tried out the JBLs in full range on the Vidar sooner, I probably would have stayed put with that stuff. The Vidar still sounded better in full range than the TA-1 by itself in high pass. I could have just crossed the subs in stereo at 35-45hz, wherever the JBLs rolled off. The TA-2 solves this with its extra power and adjustable filters. It loses the dedicated crossover outputs though. Wile I still consider it a swing and a miss that you can't high pass the speakers AND run a pair of subs in stereo, (this functionality and a sub 80hz crossover would have saved the TA-1's ass) if you're crossing over at like 40-60hz, mono subs isn't a big deal. If I could go back in time, unhear the Moabs, not buy the Vidar and not return the subs and get a TA-2 instead of the TA-1.. I would be into my system for about $4k and perfectly satisfied.
It would be great if there existed a ~50lb class A/B mono amp with toroidal and heatsinks and any other possible part made of silver, including a free silver speaker cable. Silver alone could double in price every ~10 years. Convincing a wife to purchase two for ~$50k each as investment while enjoying high-end audio would be significantly more manageable 😄A gold emblem "100 Silver" and maybe coating the amp with black color diamond-like carbon that could eliminate silver tarnish and further improve the appearance. I'd even take a loan to buy these. 😄
Im a bass player. And the latest craze ( 10 to 12 years) has been Class D bass amps. I have played a few, MESA, Genz Benz, Aguilar. They ALL lack something. Its a feel thing. and all seem HPF too high. MESA claims their amp is 800 watts. I'll tell you it is NOWHERE near the 800 watts of my old Crown PSA2 FEEL.. Many of these bass amps use the ICE Modules. I am glad to hear your professional input. It verifies what many of us bass players have experienced in the pro performance world. The engineers guys says there is NO difference between a Class D or Class AB amps sound. Many who play them beg to differ. But we don't wear a lab coat with pocket protectors. , so our input is discounted .lol As you say the input Tube or FET if designed properly can make sound glorious. But in a commercial grade consumer bass amp we know they are using teh cheapest components to gain the MAX profit even thought the engineer claims otherwise. We hate HYPE I've gone back to playing Class AB amps on my bass rig.
Kirk, I may have been the one who started the Class D bass amp conversation, but I agree; if I have a bass amp that has four 6550 output tubes, and I want a Class D amp that can rival that, even a 1200W Class D amp is going to have a hard time sonically. I (we?) non-famous part time warriors put up with Class D for gigging situations for light carrying weight and the hope of enhanced reliability. Some players also pick lighter cabs and drivers these days, as technology has allowed them to do so. It’s one thing if you’re making a recording that’s going to be available to listen to over and over again, but in an unrecorded live situation, you can get away with a lot more “sonic imperfection.”
@@shipsahoy1793 I somewhat agree. But I also disagree. Most of my gigs these years are In Ear. I gig with an international pop star 50% of the time, The otehr i do loacal gigs and different mega church stuff. Some gigs are VERY regimented. But teh ones where I get to play LIVE and interact in real time with other players I like to be inspired. To this time I have not really been inspired by teh current release of commercial grade Class D amps. I probably wouldn't use an amp with 6550s anymore. I have in teh past. What I miss with these Class D amps is teh WEIGHT of each note. Its a FEEL thing.. I cant get by adding BASS in dB. That just makes it boomy. The last summer US tour I used a few ( now out dated ( class AB amps) Ampeg SVT 4 pro.. And in europe I had a few Glockenlang rentals and a ashdown. Doesnt have to be loud. But Just has that Punch that Mesa, GK, PUMA, Aguilar, dont have.. I seem to play more and tweak knobs less on any Class AB amp that I gig with.. With IEM gigs I sometimes play with one ear out.. Its not LOUD. But Click is sometime generated so I need one ear in. With many current day commercial Class D bass guitar amps to me there seems to be a DELAY or weird compression that feels weird. Its about teh FEEL to me . Not so much the sound but that is part of it too
I have NAD C-658 and C-298. Class D amazing clean sound. Paradigm Founder and JL sub match perfectly. The writers speakers may not have been a good match. Dirac does not work well for 2 channel system and can ruin the speaker sound and can make thin speakers sound worse.
I have the NAD C165BEE preamp / C298 amplifier combo hooked up to Paradigm Premier 800F speakers (one step below Founders Series) and also find the sound to be truly excellent! Can listen for HOURS with no fatigue....really impressed!
Class D amps can last for decades. I use a pair of Beolab 1 in my home theatre as front speakers and they were produced 23 years ago and still play perfectly fine. They are active 3 way speakers with each having 450 Watts class D ICEPower for the bass, 125 Watts class AB for the mids and 125 Watts class AB for the treble. With my 2 subwoofers and surround speakers they still make a good movie watching experience.
class a is very inefficient. generates a lot of heat and barely any power in watts and the speakers they support are very limited now since most speakers are coming with higher wattage's, lower ohms and mid to high in sensitivity ratings
@@Douglas_Blake Yes, time is flying fast. In the 90s I was working at B&O in one of our R&D rooms with the inventor of the ICEPower a few feet from me. Later I used ICEPower in some products leading the R&D. In early time it was a bit hush hush secret tech. Nowadays few people know ICEPower moved from that initial stage to becoming an independent amp tech supplier used by PS Audio and many others.
All depends on the quality of the design. I have been using and misusing a Lab.gruppen based on the A104 module common to various models, including active powered Tannoy, not even the most modern design, not an issue - besides the analog signal connector. This is why they were sold in large quantity to professional users. And to quite some home hifi users as well.
If a particular power amp sounds thin compared to other power amps, then in all likelyhood it needs looking at by the manufacturers with a view to improvement. Messing about with different preamps to overcome shortcomings would not be my solution.
Amplification is not really a problem now days. Class D amps today are not the same as they were in the 80s and 90s..... While it is true that it is still a bit of a challenge to get class D smooth as class A/B, many of today's class D amps can come pretty close. That said though the inherent thing about class D amps is that they do tend to be on the bright side of neutral. So in this situation mentioned here, I think it is more of a mismatch than anything inherent in the amps. Pairing up rather revealing speakers such as the Focals to any class D amp is going to sound bright with the adjacent illusion of sounding a bit thin. Pairing any speaker that is tilted up to a class D amp will sound this way. In fact, one of the worst pairings I can think of is hooking up a pair of Paradigm Personas to a class D amp. While the Personas are not revealing in the true sense, they are very tilted up. (Side note: Those speakers actually don't sound good with anything from my experience with them. That is a real shame when you consider that the bar was set high with the Studio series they used to make. Those were one of the best speakers ever on the market by most accounts, but as with things audio, progress marches backwards instead of forwards much of the time).
They may be brighter because it may turn out that you need some extra dB’s of headroom over whatever average power level you’re going to be playing the thing at; so in other words, if you need a 50 watt per channel amp, maybe you really need a 100-150 W per channel amp in order to listen at at 5 W or 10 W out and not have it sound bright or worse (harsh).
@@shipsahoy1793 I don't have a class D amp. I was just responding to the question. That said though, headroom is concerned with load and speaker efficiency and distortion, but has nothing to do with brightness or warmth.
@@ericelliott227 You surprise me. Distortion has everything to do with tone and the “perception” of it. Same with S/N ratio and dynamic range. Btw, having a background in something and having experience with it are requisite to each other. One without the other, and you’re missing something. Similar to being a musician.
@@shipsahoy1793 As I understand it from many years with playback (home audio gear) and some live sound engineering experience (the musician part of the argument, if you will), Distortion is an anomaly that interferes with clarity, not tone in playback systems. It's use in making music is an entirely different animal and in that case has direct effect on tone such as with an electric guitar. Lower sensitivity speakers have lower threshold for distortion no matter the amp. I always say "the louder the volume past the demarcation of the system's headroom the less detail". Most audiophiles (and many rock musicians) are deaf from playing too loud. (No, I'm not knocking rock musicians, I love rock music and was in that scene for a few years from roadie to management and lots of stuff in between. I'm just stating the obvious). So the levels most audiophiles play back at are ok to them, hearing aids or not, to the rest of us with no hearing loss, it is unbearable. I've had to quickly dash out of plenty of rooms at shows and other places where systems are demoed due to it being plain too loud. Most of the systems sounded horrible from $100 to $1 million because they were played too loud. What surprises me is that most folks not in the know rate whether or not a sound system or it's components are good or not based on how loud they can go, the surprise part is that plenty of audiophiles do the same while throwing around non sequitur terms they do not fully understand to make it sound like they do. At any rate, this goes into a separate area that doesn't address the inquiry. In other words, a discussion for a different day.
Mentioning Nad and forgetting to mention the other amp manufacturer sounds very much like name shaming and given the viewers any chance to form a sound opinion. I wish Paul discarded these emails.
Isn't that a bit upside down... get the right speakers to begin with and don't try to compensate with your amp for your thin sounding speakers... on the other side, if you like the coloration from vacuum tubes, or any other A/B amp, by all means go for it.
There are “hundreds” of different manufacturers of class D amplifiers sold worldwide. Different prices, different quality builds. There are those that will only use A/B or Tube amplifiers. There are those that will only use Class D. Whatever floats your boat and financial situation that is what you use. There is no shortage of people on the internet that want to live your life for you.
PAUL......................................................you just knocked ICE modules.........LOL!!!!!! Your own S300 uses ICE modules. Way to talk down on just throwing in an ICE module when that's exactly what you do in your own amp. BRAVO!
In which year? And even if it was recently you can find tons of class A sounding the same - A good designed class D sounds as good as anything else but don't waste energy to heat the room in the summer wasting money
The first Peavey DECA amps could be that way. Bad output filtering. I also hated that Peavey referred to them as "digital," when they were actually Class D, which is not digital at all.
@@Harald_Reindl Yes... I realize that, because I was there when it happened. One of the advantages of being old. 🤣 The DECA amps were some of the first mass-produced Class D amps, so it's not surprising that they were imperfect almost 40 years ago. I have a 20 watt class D amp that I use for driving some really nice full-range speakers in my bedroom, and it sounds really nice. It just took some time to figure it out, that's all.
Don't see the draw of a low powered, expensive class D. For $3k there is a boatload of choices out there with tried and true tech that'll last for decades and sound great and some have loads more power as well. Curious what he ended up with.
@@roofpizza1250 no crown xls run nearly silent it's the higher models xti and whatnot and the older xls models the fan is always spinning and that makes the noise
@@shangrilaladeda LOLZ. Even their website says....Crown Amplifiers, PROFESSIONAL POWER AMPLIFIERS... If that isn't enough for you then check out the connections on the back.
Almost sounds like because Paul thinks there's a sound (coloration?) to Class D, so he introduces a tube that has its own sound (another coloration?) to counter-balance things? Hmmmmmm. Class D amps can be wonderfully musical but they inherently have an issue. Even though Class D amps are not digital, their high-speed switching modules will introduce a bi-directional digital-like noise. This digital-like bi-directional noise will go back up the AC circuitry to the AC inlet at the chassis and then induce the same noise onto the other channel. So now you have this digital-like noise being shared by both L and R channels at the common AC inlet. It's significantly worse if it's a Class D integrated amp because the pre-amp section must borrow AC power from one of the channels. Since L&R channels are already sharing this bi-directional digital-like noise, the pre-amp section is now getting the noise from both channels and then adding gain to that noise. Very unpleasant. For this reason, I would never entertain a Class D amp where L&R channels share a common AC inlet. I use Class D monoblock amps and even then use superior passive dedicated bi-directional filtering line conditioners on each monoblock plugged into dedicated lines/circuits. Only because bi-directional digital-like noise is believed to go all the way back to the service panel and then induce its noise onto other circuits. Given the above and sufficiently addressing this well-known deficiency and assuming the mono-block Class D amps are well-enough designed, they should easily hold their own against many an amplifier from a musicality perspective.
@@zazamarco235 Indeed. And of course at the heart of a Class D amp's power supply is nothing short of a high-speed switching module which induces a bi-directional digital-like noise, right?
Sounds a mismatch. My Sonusfabers never played well with my tubed monoblocks...Class D turned out to be the answer. Or at least bimping--Class D for the bass, tubed monoblocks for the highs. Audiophonics in France makes (for less than 1200 USD delivered) a great e-purify Class D amp.
As an audiophile, and also, an experienced & certified electronics technician/radio-tv engineer, I become disgusted, at times, with the terminology employed by non-technically competent audiophiles. What is meant by "softness," regarding sound? What is "tight" bass? How are these subjective terms related to frequency response, phase response, noise, THD, IMD, TIMD, slew-rate, etc? If you quantify a phenomenon, describe it with numbers that can be read on a meter, or represented on the display of a 'scope or spectrum analyzer, you can "get a handle on it," can tweak it to achieve certain results, know WHY an amp. or other gear, sounds as it does. Ideally the perfect hi-fi system would produce an output signal that's an EXACT duplicate, of the input, in every respect, except amplitude. It might, or might not, be the "best sounding" system, however.
@@davidcross890 and it's fascinating that you clowns are thinking you are some elites because you can afford expensive cables - you are not - I have invested 15000 dollars in room acoustics which makes a day and night difference
Let's ask a CEO/Sales guy with no engineering skills from a company producing a hodge pudge of devices, many of which ludicrous, for independent advice. Yeah, right. Nice "random letter" choice, Paul.
"And some companies take an off-the-shelf module like ICE from Texas Instruments and they are ready to go..." Oh, you mean like PS Audio does for all of their Class-D amps? Yeah. And about that "we just don't think it sounds very good", all Paul basically does is just put some of his weird gain-cells in front of them on a PS Audio logo'd PCB and the rest is just that: A chassis around the modules. Edit: And yes there is the argument that Paul "voices" them, but all the measurements I have seen for the solid-state input stage ones has them pretty much being transparent. An example would be the S300 and M700 which use said ICE modules. They have very low distortion, and have no particular sound of their own, which is good. Paul did not compromise their good performance. The tube ones will just have lots of distortion, and not the euphonic type. Just distortion from poor linearity, but even then its likely to be drowned out by the distortion from LPs and speakers.
Why are some of these Class D amps so expensive? You said that they use off the shelf modules. You just have to design a preamp stage, power supply and chassis around them. Why are China mini amps so cheap in comparison?
so class d is so bad that only the best amplifier ever made- a vacuum tube can save it. that's what nakamichi did with their first cd players and it's also the answer for digital sound. what about a class a/b power amp with a tube preamp? why introduce something with a problematic tone like class d into your system in the first place and then try to solve it? class d is a cheap way to amplify. it saves space and doesnt generate heat unlike good sounding amps class a a/b or tubes.
You guys talk about Class D as if it was a closely "defined" definition.. This couldn't be further from the truth. A cheap Alibaba class D module sounds as good as a Sony walkman from the 80's, while the best Class D modules beats absolutely ANYTHING hands down, when it comes to neutrality. Nothing added/nothing removed from the signal, just.. amplified! Distortion is on par with the best DACs of today.
All these sounds spoken of are just a pile on of additional distortions that simply take anyone further away from the goal of unadulterated sound reproduction. Too many fall for so many of the unique marketing lies. So many should have stuck to their old clock radios instead of pretending they have much better than new age class D glorified junk.
Folks, I can tell you that I went from a well regarded AB amp to the Stellar S300 (Class D)and it is a wonderful amp. Incredible grip and an overall sweetness that is glorious. I'm using this amp with Class B full range speakers that love power and this amp delivers. The bass grip is something that has to be heard to appreciate. The Absolute Sound did a review of this amp on 1/27/2023 (Neil Nader) and he was effusive in his praise of this amp and wrapped up his review by saying [S-300] ..."enthusiastically recommended without reservation". He also discussed in detail class D and his opinion of it as executed by PS Audio. Worth the read.
What are Class B speakers?
@@keithmoriyama5421 Sorry, Stereophile Magazine has an annual recommended components list that itemizes stereo components by various classes A-D. Class A ( finest regardless of price) Class B, etc. etc. so it's a benchmark of sorts....for example, Klipsch Forte iv are "class B"
@@jeffreypicciolo7706 I don’t believe that is the intention of the audio world to rank equipment.
It’s usually as follows:
1. High end audiophile
2. Mid level
3. Entry level
When people use “class” it’s more related to amplification and the letter means more of a type vs grade.
We need to face reality related to US non-industrialization. Heat sinks are expensive. The days of large heat sink amps are limited by cost.
I do not know myself the quality of Class D. I’m happy with my Class AB from 30 years ago.
The great thing about Class D is tons of watts for a somewhat minimal price. It’s hard to know where manufacturers are going. We have to remember they need to make a profit. Higher margin the better.
@@keithmoriyama5421 he was probably screwed by the TH-cam editor or voice recognition. He probably meant a class B amp with full range speakers. Duh, regular or decaf?☕️
@@jeffreypicciolo7706 Now that is certainly one of the dumbest things I’ve heard. Thanks for the laugh. 🤣 You could almost make that plausible if you try hard enough to convince yourself. I seriously doubt that enough or proper research was done on amplifier outputs and speaker system loads to generate a viable list, considering also that the “quality” of sources and their materials are in the mix as well.
Amplification really isn't a problem anymore. It is the input into the amplification that is crucial. The obsession with linearity and naturalness has diverged into clinical hell.
So true. Somebody would really clean up in the TH-cam industry using blind tests for products and having people come in to determine if it was a Class A, A/B or class D. I could almost guarantee no one would know the difference.
Loved "Clinical Hell" 👹😅
@@bigjay1970 😉yeah it’s funny how you can justify what you’re hearing when you know what it is you’re listening to..😂
that’s why I get a kick out of the dac reviews ..
for every extra couple hundred dollars you spend, these guys always find a way to spin that it’s sonically better, when it’s always a subtlety at best; you can observe more difference in volume levels, EQ’s and stage gains over the differences in a lot of these DACs. When I have a good sound coming out of all my sources, analog or digital and I know that any particular one isn’t clearly superior to the other, then I know I’m onto something. I’m just enjoying the music; that’s the point! Paul effectively said as much; if the amp is a synergistic pair with the speaker, it doesn’t matter what class the amp is lol
Well said, D1N02 👍
preach it brother
Paul would you kindly explain the pros cons and your views of class G amplifiers.
I am very happy with my M1200’s powering my vintage Infinity Quantum 2 speakers.
I have a NAD C-388 which is not as expensive as some units you mentioned in your Video
I use a Dynaudio DM 3/7 and its matches very well. I had many systems in the last 54 years but when you get older you prefer more convenience and not looking for absolute sound. So far I don't regret my switch to D.
Was just thinking of this. As we get older, our hearing goes and aren't able to catch as many frequencies perhaps.
"Designed properly, it sounds great." Yup, that's just the way my Rogue Audio Sphinx V3 sounds! It's a class D hybrid with tubes - which I guess are what make it sound so good (paired with my Tannoy speakers). The "synergy" must be there because my efficient Tannoy speakers sound very warm and revealing!
I own the Focal Electra bookshelves with 2 REL t7i subwoofers and they sound wonderful with my Class D Peachtree Nova500. Powerful & precise.
I have a much heralded Nad M33. They have a certain thinness in the mids. I would call it a presentation, not a fault. You can get rid of most of the thinness by using Dirac to add a 3db bump from about 250 to 1000kh. Below 250 even Dirac suggest adding a 6db boost. I have Rosso Fiorentino floorstanders, a traditionally warm sounding Italian speaker.
Class D can sound wonderful. I was convinced by hearing an in-store demo. I bought 2 Anthem Statement M1 mono and am still stunned to this day. And I have an love McIntosh, and anthem Class A/b and as well. Ive not heard the psaudio, but if they took the care that anthem did from the ground up, I'd love to hear them and bet they would sound amazing.
LOLZ. 7K Worth of amps better sound decent, rather pick up a used Luxman myself.
'After a good night's sleep to refresh mind and ears, I began listening to music at more sensible levels. The sound was smooth and warm but lacked bite, and wasn't particularly engaging. Most notable was a lack of high-frequency energy, though what was there was quite elegant and detailed.'.
Seems not everyone is onboard with you on this one.
Watching this from Roseville, MN! 😊
You should call me.
I love my NAD M10 class D amp. I Think it depends on the speaker pairing. I think a good match with my Q accoustic concept 500's. I also have other speakers and amps to compare with for reference.
As some other commenters have noted, class D amps respond very differently to peaks and valleys in speaker/crossover impedance. Any speaker no matter the quality is going to sound very different with a class D amp than with a similarly spec'd AB
i like their size lightness and coolness. dont need a big hot monster anymore
I agree. M700's sound great, speaker cable also has made a bigger difference than I would have ever thought too.
I have M700s too. What cable do you like? I am running Blue Jeans Canare to no ill effects.
A cheap tpa3255 class d amp is great and clean sounding as for my adjustment. 😊👌
I use class d amps and put tone control on its input stage and it sounds great. And it sounds clean too.
I have an NAD 3020 D, which is Class D. I use it in a second system and think it sounds amazing. NAD, along with PS Audio, is one of the companies I would trust with Class D.
Class D amplifiers, are based on digital switching
Class D amplifiers generate 3rd order harmonic distortion and high frequency noise. That is because the output transistors switch the output to either VDD or ground, the resulting output of a Class D amplifier is a high-frequency square wave. The switching frequency (fSW) for most Class D amplifiers is typically between 250kHz to 1.5MHz.
Vacuum tube amplifiers produce pleasant sounding 2nd order harmonics. Which is preferred by most listeners for being. "Lush & Glorious"
By placing a vacuum tube buffer stage prior to the Class D electronics the resulting sound is most pleasing to most people. This has been a well known fact for decades. Take a classic Nelson Pass Class A amp ( dry, cold but deadly accurate ). Drive it with a vacuum tube preamp and presto a Lush and Glorious sound.
Combined with a Linkwitz Riley crossover class d works very well for powdered subs and full range speakers find an amp that uses one.
Dear Jeffrey,
a proposal to check:
Take some wire wound 5W resistor of say 0.1 or 0.22Ohms and connect it in line with the positive/red output speaker terminal of your class D amp output, the other end to the speaker cable to the positive speaker input terminal - and check the sound now.
Background: the speaker is best sounding not at the maximum damping factor available. Damping factor (a reversal value related to the differential source impedance of an amp related to the load impedance) is usually very high with Class D amps hence the output devices are switching and control depends mostly on high negative feedback. That's totally o.k. but can be absolutely too much of a good thing when it comes to real speakers, that worked well and perfectly aperiodically damped on a predecessor amp with less damping.
So if you reduce that value, the speaker may sound less over-controlled, thicker...
I recently had two class d amps in my system, one of which was a P S. Audio, which usually is powered by mccormack class a B amps
One of these amps sported a tube preamp stage which is classy A and sounds great.
However, I find both amps unlistenable compared to my McCormack
I would love to see you arguing all this with Bruno Putzeys..
I'd go with Dan D'agostino myself.
Facts dispel obsurd fantasies of greatness or myths of head to head competing advanced class D in the Real World.
Tried a $3200.00 Class D Marantz and hated the sound. Purchased a Hegel Class A/B and never looked back.
TEAC HypexNcore are amazing, Pairs great with ELAC speakers.
I need help here, I am looking for amp an I like the Audison 5.600 sr to my components focal 165 k2 and a 10inch Fosgate P/3? Any suggestions
Audison are popular amps.
Lots of people use them.
Installs can be problematic.
You have to find a good installer that knows what they are doing, plus the fine tuning. Fine tuning is relative to the type of music you listen to the most. I had my system fine tuned to classical, jazz and blues by the installer. That worked out well for me. Yes I did use a subwoofer, that was fine tuned the same way.
Depending on where you live you might not have access to a good installer or at least easy access. I don’t mess with that myself on any level.
I also bought everything from one manufacturer except the head unit from a authorized dealer that did the install.
That was more than 12 years ago.
Back then I looked at a complete McIntosh system including head unit from a McIntosh dealer that also did installs. Expensive..LOL.
Way over my budget.
How do you like the 165 k2..?
They have the Utopia also.
Expensive. LOL.
I use a 3 way active focal kx2 components with a utopia mid. I upgraded my Harmotech tube hybrid amps for a 6 channel Zapco AP150.6 and the results are astounding. No glare at the highs, clear and detailed vocals with tight and controlled bass. I’ve heard a friend’s kx3 kit with Mosconi AS amps and they are fantastic too but I prefer my Zapco.
I would recommend going for a dedicated monoblock for sub duties
@@davidfromamerica1871 Hi thanks for responding, I do love my 165 k2 it was awesome upgrade from respectfully the JBL gto609c components, you get spoil on the quality of the sound. I still have my JBL gto629 in future get does focal maybe. I had the cxa360.4 kicker amp with an old school EQ clarion 755 with epic center. Little by little trying to go for best quality at a good price. I live in San Diego they have a lot of good stereo shops, thank again
@@xdaggersoul
That is the name I couldn’t remember, Zapco..👍🤗😎
I looked at Zapco years ago before Zapco was sold to another company. Zapco
Zapco use to be made in California back then. Great amplifier’s.
A lot of new improvements in audio have been made since I bought my system 12 years ago. I went with all JLAUDIO amps and speakers from the JLAUDIO dealer that also does installation. A/B Slash series Amps. 4 and a 5 channel amp.
One of the main reasons I went with all JLAUDIO was he owns that dealership won several SPL trophies with his JLAUDIO car. He has a lot of various trophies from over the years.
I took that system out of my truck several years ago when that truck was traded in. Never had it reinstalled.
Just recently my OEM stereo in my car has a speaker short somewhere. I have an old Eclipse head unit and speakers in custom made cabinets. I plan on hooking up the head unit with a 12 volt plug that I’ll plug into the 12 volt cigarette lighter for power. Just use 2 speakers in the back. I have 2 McIntosh 6.5 component speakers in those cabinets I bought years ago. Leave the OEM intact.
Wey need more class h+ amplifiers.
There should be a list over anemic amps. Sony str-dh590 is anemic as a cucumber
Class D can sound really good, but it is rather brighter and thinner on the midrange compared to Classes A and AB . One has to pair it with the right speakers. My Rogue Pharaoh II integrated (tube preamp, class D amp) works well with my neutral KEF 105 but not good enough with my JBL L100.
For subwoofer class D is a better choice, even much better than tube amp.
I can't see a tube amp built to match a subwoofer without it breathing literal fire and running eight 805 tubes
Class D amps work well in powered subs. Fast, high powered and cool
When powered subs fail it's always the class D amp. Most manufactures give less warranty on the amp than they do the rest of the sub.
@@roofpizza1250 I agree but I dont think they have any other class in powered subs. Just plate Class D. I bought an expensive Velodyne sub a few years ago. American brand Made in China of course. It packed up a few months ago and the repair shops told me that the parts are not available anymore.
I haven't used Dirac, but I have heard many people report that the calibration tends to come out sounding too thin for their taste. I wonder if he used Dirac on the new class AB amp as well, or only with the NAD and blamed the class D for something it might not have been responsible for?
Hello Zack - I'm the guy who wrote to Paul. I tried the NAD with and without Dirac. The Dirac made no difference - the NAD always sounded anemic. Given the consistently positive reviews for the NAD M10, I was quite shocked when I heard the amp with my Focals. Paul's explanation makes sense to me. For the price the M10 is loaded with features, and I bet that the class D amp circuitry is not as good as it could be. I've gone back to being very suspicious of subjective equipment reviews!
@@michaelpetkovich5058 What did you end up replacing it with? I haven't heard either in person, but most reviews do seem to say that the NAD stuff is on the lean side. And that Focals tend to run neutral to bright. This is probably a poor combination if both things are true.
@@zackw4941 This is rather embarrassing for a discussion with audiophiles, but I replaced the NAD with an Emotiva T2 integrated amp. It does have a feature that I really wanted (for a good price), and that's great bass management. I can select an output to my sub (SVS 1000) from 40 to 200 Hz, and the amp cuts out the signal to my speakers below the selected value. Here's a subjective judgement - I think the bass response has really improved. The amp is rated from 130 to 200 W, and that's plenty. My listening room is small and speaker sensitivity is well above 90 dB, so I have plenty of power. (Of course, my philosophy is to invest most of my money in speakers.) Is the amp price too low? I'm not sure. It's a direct to customer sale, and it's old technology. In theory, without the middleman, I'm told that the amp would probably (?) be worth about $2200 at a store. My CD player is also inexpensive - an Integra 6 disk changer. It's replacing a dead Sony 200 disk changer - ok, I'm lazy. However, I have a collection of 3,000 jazz and classical CDs, and I want the best sound for my money. I like a full sound, but I also need clarity so I can hear each instrument. I'm thinking of getting a DAC, but the subjective reviews drive me crazy. I've found some nice technical measurements at audio science review, but it's a limited set of DACs. I need more help from Paul.
BTW, I'm pleased with my new sounds, but I'm always looking for system improvements (the audiophile disease). That's the reason for the DAC. My original amp was the Harmon Kardon 5770.
@@michaelpetkovich5058 Don't be embarrassed! If the TA-2 had come out sooner, than I might have bought it and called it quits there.. And saved a lot of money.
My first foray into "high end" speakers was a pair of JBL Studio 580's, on sale for $600. I also already had a cheap pair of powered Dayton Audio 12" subs. I was driving everything with an SMSL AD18 for a while. Then I got the TA-1 and it was a noticeable step up.
The TA-1 has similar bass management, which is largely what drew me in. But the TA-1 only has a fixed crossover point at 90hz, which is obviously too high. When I used the crossover, the sound of my speakers was improved remarkably! In part because the TA-1 is still a little under powered. The imaging wasn't too bad because my cheap subs couldn't produce anything above 80hz. But I was noticing that 80-90hz gap..
So my next step was a bigger one. I picked up a pair of SVS SB3000's. These could be dialed in flat from under 20hz up to whatever I needed. Now I had awesome bass and that gap was gone.. But filling in that gap up to 90hz meant that I could localize the subs and the sound stage kind of came apart running the subs in mono.
In steps one of my friends with a Schiit Vidar. Using an external amp with the TA-1's crossover pre-outs, I was able to run the subs in stereo and the Vidar wiped the floor with the TA-1 internal amp as well. I wash so close to start I thought was the perfect sound. But it was still too obvious that the mids and highs were coming from the speakers and the lows were coming from the subs because of that 90hz crossover. So I returned the subs and saved up for a pair of Tekton Moabs, which I am now running with a Parasound Hint 6. This setup kicks ass, but it's already double start I had wanted to spend and now I'm addicted to the high end and want more. (PS, I was already into LCD-4 headphones before all this speaker stuff started, so I know what good sound is.)
If I hadn't been so stubborn about the crossover and tried out the JBLs in full range on the Vidar sooner, I probably would have stayed put with that stuff. The Vidar still sounded better in full range than the TA-1 by itself in high pass. I could have just crossed the subs in stereo at 35-45hz, wherever the JBLs rolled off.
The TA-2 solves this with its extra power and adjustable filters. It loses the dedicated crossover outputs though. Wile I still consider it a swing and a miss that you can't high pass the speakers AND run a pair of subs in stereo, (this functionality and a sub 80hz crossover would have saved the TA-1's ass) if you're crossing over at like 40-60hz, mono subs isn't a big deal.
If I could go back in time, unhear the Moabs, not buy the Vidar and not return the subs and get a TA-2 instead of the TA-1.. I would be into my system for about $4k and perfectly satisfied.
It would be great if there existed a ~50lb class A/B mono amp with toroidal and heatsinks and any other possible part made of silver, including a free silver speaker cable. Silver alone could double in price every ~10 years. Convincing a wife to purchase two for ~$50k each as investment while enjoying high-end audio would be significantly more manageable 😄A gold emblem "100 Silver" and maybe coating the amp with black color diamond-like carbon that could eliminate silver tarnish and further improve the appearance. I'd even take a loan to buy these. 😄
Im a bass player. And the latest craze ( 10 to 12 years) has been Class D bass amps. I have played a few, MESA, Genz Benz, Aguilar. They ALL lack something. Its a feel thing. and all seem HPF too high.
MESA claims their amp is 800 watts. I'll tell you it is NOWHERE near the 800 watts of my old Crown PSA2 FEEL.. Many of these bass amps use the ICE Modules.
I am glad to hear your professional input. It verifies what many of us bass players have experienced in the pro performance world.
The engineers guys says there is NO difference between a Class D or Class AB amps sound. Many who play them beg to differ. But we don't wear a lab coat with pocket protectors. , so our input is discounted .lol
As you say the input Tube or FET if designed properly can make sound glorious. But in a commercial grade consumer bass amp we know they are using teh cheapest components to gain the MAX profit even thought the engineer claims otherwise. We hate HYPE
I've gone back to playing Class AB amps on my bass rig.
Kirk, I may have been the one who started the Class D bass amp conversation, but I agree; if I have a bass amp that has four 6550 output tubes, and I want a Class D amp that can rival that, even a 1200W Class D amp is going to have a hard time sonically. I (we?) non-famous part time warriors put up with Class D for gigging situations for light carrying weight and the hope of enhanced reliability. Some players also pick lighter cabs and drivers these days, as technology has allowed them to do so. It’s one thing if you’re making a recording that’s going to be available to listen to over and over again, but in an unrecorded live situation, you can get away with a lot more “sonic imperfection.”
@@shipsahoy1793 I somewhat agree. But I also disagree.
Most of my gigs these years are In Ear. I gig with an international pop star 50% of the time, The otehr i do loacal gigs and different mega church stuff.
Some gigs are VERY regimented.
But teh ones where I get to play LIVE and interact in real time with other players I like to be inspired. To this time I have not really been inspired by teh current release of commercial grade Class D amps.
I probably wouldn't use an amp with 6550s anymore. I have in teh past.
What I miss with these Class D amps is teh WEIGHT of each note. Its a FEEL thing..
I cant get by adding BASS in dB. That just makes it boomy.
The last summer US tour I used a few ( now out dated ( class AB amps) Ampeg SVT 4 pro.. And in europe I had a few Glockenlang rentals and a ashdown.
Doesnt have to be loud. But Just has that Punch that Mesa, GK, PUMA, Aguilar, dont have..
I seem to play more and tweak knobs less on any Class AB amp that I gig with..
With IEM gigs I sometimes play with one ear out.. Its not LOUD. But Click is sometime generated so I need one ear in.
With many current day commercial Class D bass guitar amps to me there seems to be a DELAY or weird compression that feels weird. Its about teh FEEL to me . Not so much the sound but that is part of it too
@@svtbass I hear you. Many things just don’t “feel” as good to me these days as they did in the last century.👨🏻
Class d amps are cheaper !!!! And just different , they are fun to play around with and can sound great too
I have NAD C-658 and C-298. Class D amazing clean sound. Paradigm Founder and JL sub match perfectly. The writers speakers may not have been a good match. Dirac does not work well for 2 channel system and can ruin the speaker sound and can make thin speakers sound worse.
I have the NAD C165BEE preamp / C298 amplifier combo hooked up to Paradigm Premier 800F speakers (one step below Founders Series) and also find the sound to be truly excellent! Can listen for HOURS with no fatigue....really impressed!
Wait…what? Dirac is not the right tool for 2 channel?! That was one of the reasons I chose the C-658.
@@boomcrash Maybe it will work for you. It took the life out of the music for myself and an audiophile friend. I had a pro set it up mine.
Can anyone speak from experience to the reliability (or lack thereof) of Class D?
My Class A monoblocks have performed flawlessly since the mid 1990s.
Class D amps can last for decades. I use a pair of Beolab 1 in my home theatre as front speakers and they were produced 23 years ago and still play perfectly fine. They are active 3 way speakers with each having 450 Watts class D ICEPower for the bass, 125 Watts class AB for the mids and 125 Watts class AB for the treble. With my 2 subwoofers and surround speakers they still make a good movie watching experience.
class a is very inefficient. generates a lot of heat and barely any power in watts and the speakers they support are very limited now since most speakers are coming with higher wattage's, lower ohms and mid to high in sensitivity ratings
Could you mention your class A monos model please?
@@Douglas_Blake Yes, time is flying fast. In the 90s I was working at B&O in one of our R&D rooms with the inventor of the ICEPower a few feet from me. Later I used ICEPower in some products leading the R&D. In early time it was a bit hush hush secret tech. Nowadays few people know ICEPower moved from that initial stage to becoming an independent amp tech supplier used by PS Audio and many others.
All depends on the quality of the design. I have been using and misusing a Lab.gruppen based on the A104 module common to various models, including active powered Tannoy, not even the most modern design, not an issue - besides the analog signal connector. This is why they were sold in large quantity to professional users. And to quite some home hifi users as well.
If a particular power amp sounds thin compared to other power amps, then in all likelyhood it needs looking at by the manufacturers with a view to improvement.
Messing about with different preamps to overcome shortcomings would not be my solution.
Great video would be class D and durability. End up going back to AB after 3 class D amps dying within a three months.
What's that class D model? Sounds like a serious design flaw...
@@user-dh7lt4we2t Class D is a race to the bottom.
@@user-dh7lt4we2t I've had 2 die
What kind of trash do you guys buy, my hepex works for 9 years very day without problem
I'm Mr Meeseeks! Look at me! Dunno who's workstation that is, but they're definitely is a Rick and Morty fan.
Amplification is not really a problem now days. Class D amps today are not the same as they were in the 80s and 90s..... While it is true that it is still a bit of a challenge to get class D smooth as class A/B, many of today's class D amps can come pretty close. That said though the inherent thing about class D amps is that they do tend to be on the bright side of neutral. So in this situation mentioned here, I think it is more of a mismatch than anything inherent in the amps. Pairing up rather revealing speakers such as the Focals to any class D amp is going to sound bright with the adjacent illusion of sounding a bit thin. Pairing any speaker that is tilted up to a class D amp will sound this way. In fact, one of the worst pairings I can think of is hooking up a pair of Paradigm Personas to a class D amp. While the Personas are not revealing in the true sense, they are very tilted up. (Side note: Those speakers actually don't sound good with anything from my experience with them. That is a real shame when you consider that the bar was set high with the Studio series they used to make. Those were one of the best speakers ever on the market by most accounts, but as with things audio, progress marches backwards instead of forwards much of the time).
They may be brighter because it may turn out that you need some extra dB’s of headroom over whatever average power level you’re going to be playing the thing at; so in other words, if you need a 50 watt per channel amp, maybe you really need a 100-150 W per channel amp in order to listen at at 5 W or 10 W out and not have it sound bright or worse (harsh).
@@shipsahoy1793 I don't have a class D amp. I was just responding to the question. That said though, headroom is concerned with load and speaker efficiency and distortion, but has nothing to do with brightness or warmth.
@@ericelliott227 You surprise me. Distortion has everything to do with tone and the “perception” of it. Same with S/N ratio and dynamic range.
Btw, having a background in something and having experience with it are requisite to each other.
One without the other, and you’re missing something. Similar to being a musician.
@@shipsahoy1793 As I understand it from many years with playback (home audio gear) and some live sound engineering experience (the musician part of the argument, if you will), Distortion is an anomaly that interferes with clarity, not tone in playback systems. It's use in making music is an entirely different animal and in that case has direct effect on tone such as with an electric guitar.
Lower sensitivity speakers have lower threshold for distortion no matter the amp. I always say "the louder the volume past the demarcation of the system's headroom the less detail". Most audiophiles (and many rock musicians) are deaf from playing too loud. (No, I'm not knocking rock musicians, I love rock music and was in that scene for a few years from roadie to management and lots of stuff in between. I'm just stating the obvious). So the levels most audiophiles play back at are ok to them, hearing aids or not, to the rest of us with no hearing loss, it is unbearable. I've had to quickly dash out of plenty of rooms at shows and other places where systems are demoed due to it being plain too loud. Most of the systems sounded horrible from $100 to $1 million because they were played too loud. What surprises me is that most folks not in the know rate whether or not a sound system or it's components are good or not based on how loud they can go, the surprise part is that plenty of audiophiles do the same while throwing around non sequitur terms they do not fully understand to make it sound like they do.
At any rate, this goes into a separate area that doesn't address the inquiry. In other words, a discussion for a different day.
Mentioning Nad and forgetting to mention the other amp manufacturer sounds very much like name shaming and given the viewers any chance to form a sound opinion. I wish Paul discarded these emails.
class d can mimic any amp but companies don't want to let go of the secrets
Isn't that a bit upside down... get the right speakers to begin with and don't try to compensate with your amp for your thin sounding speakers... on the other side, if you like the coloration from vacuum tubes, or any other A/B amp, by all means go for it.
You bought the wrong NAD M10. You need to buy NAD M33
Class D can be great.
I have heard a few that I can't complain about, but I would not use one in my 'main' system.
There are “hundreds” of different manufacturers of class D amplifiers sold worldwide. Different prices, different quality builds.
There are those that will only use A/B or Tube amplifiers.
There are those that will only use Class D. Whatever floats your boat and financial situation that is what you use.
There is no shortage of people on the internet that want to live your life for you.
That's why there will always be separation of classes from the masses of asses
PAUL......................................................you just knocked ICE modules.........LOL!!!!!! Your own S300 uses ICE modules. Way to talk down on just throwing in an ICE module when that's exactly what you do in your own amp. BRAVO!
NAD is Considered more MidFi and not High-End Audio! They manufacture inexpensive Audio Receivers that sound like Crap!
Remember my first class-d setup in a PA, i thought something was out of phase or broken. Sound had no life and was dull and flat.
crown ftw
In which year? And even if it was recently you can find tons of class A sounding the same - A good designed class D sounds as good as anything else but don't waste energy to heat the room in the summer wasting money
The first Peavey DECA amps could be that way. Bad output filtering. I also hated that Peavey referred to them as "digital," when they were actually Class D, which is not digital at all.
@@ScottGrammer decades in the past.... we have 2023
@@Harald_Reindl Yes... I realize that, because I was there when it happened. One of the advantages of being old. 🤣
The DECA amps were some of the first mass-produced Class D amps, so it's not surprising that they were imperfect almost 40 years ago. I have a 20 watt class D amp that I use for driving some really nice full-range speakers in my bedroom, and it sounds really nice. It just took some time to figure it out, that's all.
Don't see the draw of a low powered, expensive class D. For $3k there is a boatload of choices out there with tried and true tech that'll last for decades and sound great and some have loads more power as well. Curious what he ended up with.
@Douglas Blake That's not what he got and those are only good for subs, parties they aren't audiophile amps.
@@roofpizza1250 no crown xls run nearly silent it's the higher models xti and whatnot and the older xls models the fan is always spinning and that makes the noise
@@shangrilaladeda LOLZ. Even their website says....Crown Amplifiers, PROFESSIONAL POWER AMPLIFIERS... If that isn't enough for you then check out the connections on the back.
@@roofpizza1250 I own some crowns I know quite a bit about them and enjoy what they do
@@shangrilaladeda AND??? Still budget PA amps.
All new things take time to find it place give it time and class d will be made by everyone
Almost sounds like because Paul thinks there's a sound (coloration?) to Class D, so he introduces a tube that has its own sound (another coloration?) to counter-balance things? Hmmmmmm. Class D amps can be wonderfully musical but they inherently have an issue. Even though Class D amps are not digital, their high-speed switching modules will introduce a bi-directional digital-like noise. This digital-like bi-directional noise will go back up the AC circuitry to the AC inlet at the chassis and then induce the same noise onto the other channel. So now you have this digital-like noise being shared by both L and R channels at the common AC inlet. It's significantly worse if it's a Class D integrated amp because the pre-amp section must borrow AC power from one of the channels. Since L&R channels are already sharing this bi-directional digital-like noise, the pre-amp section is now getting the noise from both channels and then adding gain to that noise. Very unpleasant. For this reason, I would never entertain a Class D amp where L&R channels share a common AC inlet. I use Class D monoblock amps and even then use superior passive dedicated bi-directional filtering line conditioners on each monoblock plugged into dedicated lines/circuits. Only because bi-directional digital-like noise is believed to go all the way back to the service panel and then induce its noise onto other circuits. Given the above and sufficiently addressing this well-known deficiency and assuming the mono-block Class D amps are well-enough designed, they should easily hold their own against many an amplifier from a musicality perspective.
Well, it all depends on how they are built, not the least their power supply.
@@zazamarco235 Indeed. And of course at the heart of a Class D amp's power supply is nothing short of a high-speed switching module which induces a bi-directional digital-like noise, right?
Sounds a mismatch. My Sonusfabers never played well with my tubed monoblocks...Class D turned out to be the answer. Or at least bimping--Class D for the bass, tubed monoblocks for the highs. Audiophonics in France makes (for less than 1200 USD delivered) a great e-purify Class D amp.
As an audiophile, and also, an experienced & certified electronics technician/radio-tv engineer, I become disgusted, at times, with the terminology employed by non-technically competent audiophiles. What is meant by "softness," regarding sound? What is "tight" bass? How are these subjective terms related to frequency response, phase response, noise, THD, IMD, TIMD, slew-rate, etc? If you quantify a phenomenon, describe it with numbers that can be read on a meter, or represented on the display of a 'scope or spectrum analyzer, you can "get a handle on it," can tweak it to achieve certain results, know WHY an amp. or other gear, sounds as it does. Ideally the perfect hi-fi system would produce an output signal that's an EXACT duplicate, of the input, in every respect, except amplitude. It might, or might not, be the "best sounding" system, however.
Well said. What do soft, warm, dry, rich, authoritative, grip, tight and countless other terms mean?
Audiophiles can't deal with numbers and facts - their brain is hearing even different power cords
@@Harald_Reindl for those that can EASILY afford ultra premium there are audible and MEASURABLE DIFFERENCES
@@davidcross890 and it's fascinating that you clowns are thinking you are some elites because you can afford expensive cables - you are not - I have invested 15000 dollars in room acoustics which makes a day and night difference
What you describe is what Harmon Kardon use to advertise: a straight wire with gain.
M23 🎉
Class D is inferior. Anyone saying differently has a Class D amplifier to sell ESPECIALLY if an "engineer" makes the statement. They know better.
NAD are thin sounding amps.
Not true at all...
Not that I know, Had a C300/C316 and now a D3020 and they all are a bit on the bassey side not thin at all.
Let's ask a CEO/Sales guy with no engineering skills from a company producing a hodge pudge of devices, many of which ludicrous, for independent advice. Yeah, right. Nice "random letter" choice, Paul.
"And some companies take an off-the-shelf module like ICE from Texas Instruments and they are ready to go..."
Oh, you mean like PS Audio does for all of their Class-D amps? Yeah. And about that "we just don't think it sounds very good", all Paul basically does is just put some of his weird gain-cells in front of them on a PS Audio logo'd PCB and the rest is just that: A chassis around the modules. Edit: And yes there is the argument that Paul "voices" them, but all the measurements I have seen for the solid-state input stage ones has them pretty much being transparent. An example would be the S300 and M700 which use said ICE modules. They have very low distortion, and have no particular sound of their own, which is good. Paul did not compromise their good performance. The tube ones will just have lots of distortion, and not the euphonic type. Just distortion from poor linearity, but even then its likely to be drowned out by the distortion from LPs and speakers.
Why are some of these Class D amps so expensive? You said that they use off the shelf modules. You just have to design a preamp stage, power supply and chassis around them. Why are China mini amps so cheap in comparison?
Now this in the news.
Tidal will be coming out with a new feature for premium subscription users.
Hi Res super super duper duper..LOL. 🙄
Safe to assume everyone has a class D amp? If you own a car, highly likelihood your head unit or external factory amps are class D
so class d is so bad that only the best amplifier ever made- a vacuum tube can save it.
that's what nakamichi did with their first cd players and it's also the answer for digital sound.
what about a class a/b power amp with a tube preamp? why introduce something with a problematic tone like class d into your system in the first place and then try to solve it?
class d is a cheap way to amplify. it saves space and doesnt generate heat unlike good sounding amps class a a/b or tubes.
Nonsense - you won't stand a blind-test
You guys talk about Class D as if it was a closely "defined" definition.. This couldn't be further from the truth.
A cheap Alibaba class D module sounds as good as a Sony walkman from the 80's, while the best Class D modules beats absolutely ANYTHING hands down, when it comes to neutrality.
Nothing added/nothing removed from the signal, just.. amplified!
Distortion is on par with the best DACs of today.
All these sounds spoken of are just a pile on of additional distortions that simply take anyone further away from the goal of unadulterated sound reproduction. Too many fall for so many of the unique marketing lies. So many should have stuck to their old clock radios instead of pretending they have much better than new age class D glorified junk.