I've always made compost with shredded oak leaves and pine needles. Never had a problem. It is true that both are acidic when GREEN, but not once they turn brown and fall to the ground. Your pH meter proves it! Great job Mark.
Mycorrhizal LIST ( there are two types.ENDO & ECTO ) link: www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf PH CHART LINK: THANKS.. Here is that link: www.google.com/search?q=soil+ph+chart+nutrient+availability&oq=soil+ph+chart&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j0l5.15393j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Mark, congratulations for such a nice explanation!!! This concept of not acidic coming from pine needles is commonly not known. Your explanations and demonstration made it easy to understand and learn! I ask you permission to create Spanish subtitles for your video. This will made easy to share your video with some dudes. Thanks!!! and greetings from Spain!
Great source of more proof. th-cam.com/users/redirect?event=video_description&v=BgZ5lttVs6c&redir_token=JOWXINq2VSTe7iSCyOh9-i1Sv3Z8MTU0NzgxMjI2OUAxNTQ3NzI1ODY5&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gardenmyths.com%2Fpine-needles-acidify-soil%2F .
@@iamorganicgardening hi Mark! What gardening books would you recommend? Especially for no-till gardening. I attended a presentation about no-till farming in about 1993. Then I didn't hear about it until now. Glad to see it again on your channel. Thank you.
Great information, Mark! We have cedar trees and not pines but I've always been a little anxious about using the cedar chips or needles in the garden. Now I know better! Thanks!
Excellent content! I have pine trees that are 20 ft or so down wind from my potato patch and they shed a small amount of needles into it. I always wondered if I should try to rake them out or not but never do. Guess I am OK. Thanks for the info Mark.
Thanks for taking the time to do this video. Can both Endo and ecto mycorrhizae coexist well in the same place? Or do they actively suppress each other?
Yes, They can both be in the same area and not harm each other. Their is even plants like Cottonwood that uses both endo & ecto together on their roots
Good stuff. Here in FL we have an abundance of live oak and water oak leaves in addition to pine needles so we use it all. I used some downed cedar branches to mulch a bed yesterday.
Good post, however, there are also two other factors which come into play. If the vegetable is planted within the root zone of the tree, the tree will be "stealing" much of the soil nutrients. Also, there is a potential shade factor of the tree when the vegetable is close, that would not be realized, when it is out in the open area. Most of my compost comes from pine needles, which if done properly will read about 6.8 pH.
How far away from the pine trees is the soil affected by the Ecto fungi. We have woods near our gardens and most of the trees are on the Ecto chart so I wonder if it is having an adverse effect on our gardens.
Thanks Mark for all your efforts to deliver great content to all your views. Would you gave a recommendation of what is a good pH meter to get or which on you use?
Hello Mark. My name is Det van Loenen from The Netherlands. I live in a little village and have a small fruit and vegetable garden. I saw your vlog about gathering leaves for mulch and compost and now this vlog about the pH. I have a big wallnut tree and now all the leaves coming down. Some people say not to use wallnut leaves because it is bad for your plants but others say that it does not matter. What is your opinion about it. Can I use them or not. Thank you very for your vlogs. I learned a lot of you. Best regards.
Sorry for the DELAY.. Do not worry about the leaves, they will be fine, It you look on that list I have you see that the walnut tree is is using the non popular etco mycorrhizal in it roots only.
I use dry leaves mixed in soil to lower pH, not sure why you can’t use dry pine needles. They decompose to make food for the soil and then add more as they do. Pretty sure the trees in the video have there needles cleaned up or there wouldn’t be grass growing under the tree and the needles so sparse. Pine needles/leaves, are great on top of or mixed into soil.
Yeah I learned that it's a myth a few months ago as well. Here in our communal garden we use chipped Christmas trees, and it makes a terrific mulch. We stored it on the borders of our garden, and now below it there is great soil, full of humus. So definitely use pine needle mulch, it works amazingly. If you plant right near a tree nothing will grow that's obvious, there's shade, root competition etc... nothing to do with it being a pine tree or anything. In fact, the guys in Canada who did the study on ramial chipped wood actually used pine trees for their studies at first, then patented the mix of trees that gave them the best results, so everybody assumed that pine needles were bad... No, they just patented one recipe, doesn't mean other mixes of woods don't work. A scientist in France, Konrad Schreiber, explained that you make your soil acidic only if you BURRY pine product, especially bark which is more acidic. But as a mulch, which breathes, then it's not acidic. Pine needles burried in the ground works like sourkraut : it ferments, so gets sour (acidic). That's all.
Don't forget the obvious.. shade under trees. and natural mulching action of the needles.. (same as under any tree that drops leaves that are not removed and allowed to sit and compost. but really good point that we have to quit looking just at the surface what we can see, but what is happening underground.
This depens on multiple things, like pine species, habitat and soil composition, some pine forests on sandy soild have pH of 3 in the top layer, as there is no calcium mineral to mitigate the acidity, thats not the case in loam and clay soils.
1 hr south of me is 1000.s of acres of blueberry farms with natural acidic soil. If is white sand the stays moist all the time. If you dig a hole the a foot deep the water in it is dark with organic matter. The soil does not hold it, and pass though it causing the soil to be acidic. Plus there is no living mycorrhizal fungi in it.
@@iamorganicgardeningInteresting piece! I planted a couple of blueberries into a hugelkultur to see what would happen - they seem okay, though for all I know they may be stunted! This spring, in the hugelkultur's 3rd(4th?) year, I'll be measuring the pH. If it's way off I'll start adding sulfur.
My vegatables are just not growing, the mulberry trees around the garden are not producing any fruit as well.the avocado pear trees are bearing poorly as well, what is going on here,we are having ample rain falls,this has only started in the last three seasons, the flowers are doing poorly as well,I live in South Africa
If you garden area is made are real soil of sand, silt and clay there maybe lacking water to keep the microbes alive or they have died off. Do you mulch the area? Make a compost tea or get your hands on rabbit manure to boost the soil life of microbes. Microbes must eat and turn minerals into plant nutrients. If any more information is needed write back please. THANKS
Thank you so much for making this! Simple to understand and nice and clear. Could you please share some links to the charts you used so I can print them off? It would be very much appreciated. We’ve got a home garden in a clearing right next to a pine forest and native bush so we have an abundance of leaf litter. Is it true that you can inoculate young fruit trees if doing a food forest with local forest leaf litter? Perhaps not pine needles? Liked and subscribed.... oops just saw some links!
I recently had 2 hickory trees cut down that I believed interfered with my garden. I wonder how long it takes to get the soil back to a good range? I keep enriching the soil with manure,compost and leaves. I know that tree roots also rob the soil of much needed moisture.
Another great vid full of useable info! Thanks!!. That soil PH gauge looks serious. Would you recomend it or something similar? where would I get one from? Cheers
@@iamorganicgardening is this because plants adapt the PH of the soil to their needs? How does this work with Blueberries if the soil PH is above their range? Will the PH go down with time or do you need amendments? Thanks in advance
Hope this comment finds you. Being a layman gardener and moving in a home with a big pine forest next to me I want to take actual soil and decomposed needles from under the trees and use that to build my raised garden . Is this a good idea? In other words is the soil any different to the soil in a wooded area without pine trees or will I find it having a high acidity PH?
Thanks for that video, very helpful. I downloaded your PDF of ECTO vs ENDO mycorrhizal plants and I noticed that 'Cedar' is on the ecto list and then 'Arborvitae' on the endo list. I wonder if you have any further insight on that? I have seen both terms 'cedar' and 'arborvitae' used interchangeably to describe any type of Thuja shrub. I am curious about this because I want to oprtimize the soil conditions for a lot of Thuja occidentalis (eastern white cedar) that I want to grow. I know that they enjoy more _alkaline_ soil but I wonder if I have to tilt towards ecto or towards endo mycorrhizal fungii to give them the best conditions. Thanks and keep up the good work on your videos!
Thank you! Great input - as always. By the way: The gauge on the pH-meter probably split at 7 from red/green, because *7 is neutral pH.* Then the red is towards acidic and green towards base, so the color is most likely just meant as a divider, because base pH (green) is not generally always better than acidic (red) - it always depends on teh circumstances. Anyhow: The nutrient availability chart towards the end of the Video should make it clear for everybody.
Thanks for this video Mark! I think just about everyone I've talked to in person is under the same impression, that pines and their needles make the ground too acidic for gardening. As for the mycorrhizal connections, I've read/seen that many of the different types of fungi can work together and actually create a larger network to source from. I'm not sure on the specifics other than my anecdotal evidence, but I'd like to think the 2 basic types can work together once established. There are some plants that use both endo and ecto as well. Our "zone 4" property used to be (1940's) farmland and was planted with red pines in the 70's. There are some poplars, oaks, maples, hazels, and lots of beech that are starting in the understory, but the canopy is mostly all pine. The forest floor is also mostly pine needles, some grass, and lots of ferns and moss. We are on sandy loam soil. I haven't had much luck checking the ph myself with the cheap meter I bought, so I can't really say what it is where. I've been raking the needles around the yard and they have been my main source of garden mulch. They help to suppress weeds and keep the sandy soil moist. It was our first year gardening here, and many things did pretty well, some not as much. I can't imagine the pine needles have hurt anything, (other than I had them too thick around the peppers, which seem to like the soil a little warmer and drier.) I didn't have any compost to add until late in the season, and the beds were either covered with cardboard and mulch or double-dug and then mulched. I also made a long hugel/swale out of many of the fallen pine trees, separating the feeder roots of the large living pines in the yard and the garden/food forest. The swale also serves as a drainage ditch, emptying into a hopefully future small wetland area for beneficial organisms, during big storms. I planted black raspberry, clover, alfalfa, lots of beans, squash, sunflowers, and daikon radish along the hugel-mound and they did pretty well, even though many recommend against using pine logs. Next year I'll try planting more variety on the mounds. I'm also working on large hugel-mounds in the forest out of the many diseased/fallen pines. Since we have sandy soil, from what I have been researching, if there is a drought a decomposing fungi known as armillaria begins feeding on live trees. Any of the trees less than 15 years old or so aren't able to recover after and the become diseased and fall. I am building the hugel-mounds in an effort to store water to help in the event of the next possible drought. Given all the work that I will be doing, and the open ground after covering the mounds, I will be attempting to grow different perennials and annuals in the forest, under the pines. I'm hoping by using the food forest/garden plants/soil/compost, many of which I have innoculated with beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizal fungi, I will be able to find some sort of balance to grow some food there as well. Although it will likely largely be grown as trap-crops for the deer, skunks etc.. that enjoyed harvesting from the yard this year.. I have also used cedar as mulch in the past with no problems. Since what I have here is pine wood and needles, I will continue to use them unless I find an issue in the future...
THANK YOU for sharing all this wonderful information. Yes, I agree nature will work together. The key to this is like you say is trees or perennials. These are at the top of the list to work together because they have a living root in the ground 24/7 365 days a year. Als, that is why brassica do well in your area because they use neither one of the mycorrhizal fungi. As you state and what I say say also that there will never be a problem using pine needles as garden mulch for any type plant.
I have pine trees that line my property boundaries on two sides. I would like to build my composting bins under the pine tress. Would this not be a wise ideal? thanks in advanced
Great video but I'm still wondering: can I use pine needles as a mulch for my garden? So long as I'm not too close to the roots of the tree? Ecto is a type of fungus that lives on the roots of the tree?
Yes you can! The tree example ( a pine tree that uses different fungi ) that is not helpful to all vegetables. See list in the description for help what trees or plants you can plant next too. Yes, Ecto is a fungi that lives on pine tree roots. See list at this link. Mycorrhizal LIST ( there are two types.ENDO & ECTO ) link: www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf
@@iamorganicgardening OK but say I'm 50 feet away, can I still have an endo garden? Plus I cut down the tree so the fungi should die out, right? Thanks!
Mark, my garden sits between large pine trees 70-80ft tall. Ive never had any problems with my tomatoes which are never beyond 12ft away from a pine. Any thoughts about why the endo is not hurting my plants?
Your pine trees are Etco type.. But as you wrote to me once before you have a living roots in your garden all the time of Endo from your speedwell and dead nettle growing in you garden that is helping you tomatoes plants and others.
So if I'm starting a garden using the "back to eden" method, it is fine to use a mix of pine needles/dry leaves instead of only wood chips as my top layer?
Great video. Thanks for the information. However, I have a question. I used pine needles for my citrus tree last year and soon after my citrus tree experienced a terrible infestation of scales pests. It almost killed my citrus tree that was healthy and gave me a huge harvest of lemons just 5 months ago. At first I was perplexed by the scale infestation, because I did not realize that the pine needle caused it. I did not make the connection and did not know where the scale had come from. But just recently it dawned on me that pine needle might have brought the scale pests. I went on line and googled it. Sure enough! I have found that scales can infest pine trees and suck on pine trees sap. So even though I love pine needles, but I hate the scales and its larvaes that come with pine needles. Do you have any suggestions that might be able to treat the pine needles before you use it as mulch so that you unintentionally bring pests infestation to trees and vegetables in your gardens? Thank you.
I strongly recommend not using anything you have to "treat" before using. Treating things is what has destroyed our soil. Pine needles make a great mulch, but if they cause problems for citrus, then just find something else. Any organic material will work as a mulch.
id say your conclusion was incorrect. you took the two readings in spots way too close together. so the pH is the same just a little bit downhill from those pine trees just means that acidity from the pine trees is getting washed down there by heavy rains and snowmelt. try taking one reading in a pine forest and one reading in an oak forest with zero pine trees if you want accurate results.
6.5 is probably the best ph for the average plant. It may actually have to do with the carbonic acid produced in healthy system not how good it is for the plant. Just a hypothesis.
They still will just smaller amounts .. But in time the plants will grow your soil and raise the PH to what they need. ALL is good. THANK YOU for asking.
2:45 there ya go I would be more interested to see a pH measurement in an actual forest. Odds are these pine needles are gathered up and hauled by a landscaping company every so often, mitigating any acidic affect they may or may not have.
@@iamorganicgardening Fair enough. Parks in my area have landscaping crew that come several times a year and chop bushes down and rake up leaves and needles.
Endo is mainly bacteria (fast growing plants); Ecto is mainly fungi, slow/med growing plants. Fast growing plants need more nutrients faster, bacteria does this, fungi does not do this so well. Fungi excels at med/term nutrition.
Endo & Ecto are names for both types of Mycorrhizal fungi. Nothing to do with bacteria : Open this link : www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf
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I've always made compost with shredded oak leaves and pine needles. Never had a problem. It is true that both are acidic when GREEN, but not once they turn brown and fall to the ground. Your pH meter proves it! Great job Mark.
So many people fear them in the garden. You are also helping by sharing your information. THANK YOU.
I have dumped a lot of pine needles mix in leaf mulch (50/50) on my entire garden and have always had fantastic growth with no till.
Besides, by the time it's broken down and available for the plant it's PH neutral.
Mycorrhizal LIST ( there are two types.ENDO & ECTO ) link: www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf
PH CHART LINK: THANKS.. Here is that link: www.google.com/search?q=soil+ph+chart+nutrient+availability&oq=soil+ph+chart&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j0l5.15393j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Mark, congratulations for such a nice explanation!!! This concept of not acidic coming from pine needles is commonly not known. Your explanations and demonstration made it easy to understand and learn!
I ask you permission to create Spanish subtitles for your video. This will made easy to share your video with some dudes.
Thanks!!!
and greetings from Spain!
Great source of more proof. th-cam.com/users/redirect?event=video_description&v=BgZ5lttVs6c&redir_token=JOWXINq2VSTe7iSCyOh9-i1Sv3Z8MTU0NzgxMjI2OUAxNTQ3NzI1ODY5&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gardenmyths.com%2Fpine-needles-acidify-soil%2F .
Very good information. I knew most plants use mycorrhizal fungi, but I didn't know about the endo and ecto forms. I'll have to keep that in mind. 👍
THANK YOU. Please print out the chart for yourself. it is very helpful> www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf
@@iamorganicgardening hi Mark! What gardening books would you recommend? Especially for no-till gardening.
I attended a presentation about no-till farming in about 1993. Then I didn't hear about it until now. Glad to see it again on your channel. Thank you.
Happy Thanksgiving, Mark! You're bright and industrious and a *GREAT DAD* !
And a VERY Happy Thanksgiving to you and all your loved ones..ENJOY and THANK YOU.
Great information, Mark! We have cedar trees and not pines but I've always been a little anxious about using the cedar chips or needles in the garden. Now I know better! Thanks!
BRILLIANT! Thank you.
Excellent content! I have pine trees that are 20 ft or so down wind from my potato patch and they shed a small amount of needles into it. I always wondered if I should try to rake them out or not but never do. Guess I am OK. Thanks for the info Mark.
Glad you have a chance to watch this and get a straight answer to your question... THANK YOU.
Thanks for taking the time to do this video. Can both Endo and ecto mycorrhizae coexist well in the same place? Or do they actively suppress each other?
Yes, They can both be in the same area and not harm each other. Their is even plants like Cottonwood that uses both endo & ecto together on their roots
Thanks so much for the quick response. I'll put that info to work in the garden tomorrow!
Good stuff. Here in FL we have an abundance of live oak and water oak leaves in addition to pine needles so we use it all. I used some downed cedar branches to mulch a bed yesterday.
GREAT info to know about... I will pass it on.THANK YOU.
I AM ORGANIC GARDENING The oak leaves are best after a year of composting ‘leaf mold’. After two years they are humus.
Good post, however, there are also two other factors which come into play. If the vegetable is planted within the root zone of the tree, the tree will be "stealing" much of the soil nutrients. Also, there is a potential shade factor of the tree when the vegetable is close, that would not be realized, when it is out in the open area. Most of my compost comes from pine needles, which if done properly will read about 6.8 pH.
How far away from the pine trees is the soil affected by the Ecto fungi. We have woods near our gardens and most of the trees are on the Ecto chart so I wonder if it is having an adverse effect on our gardens.
Thanks Mark for all your efforts to deliver great content to all your views. Would you gave a recommendation of what is a good pH meter to get or which on you use?
Very good informative information, thanks for sharing.
Hello Mark. My name is Det van Loenen from The Netherlands. I live in a little village and have a small fruit and vegetable garden. I saw your vlog about gathering leaves for mulch and compost and now this vlog about the pH. I have a big wallnut tree and now all the leaves coming down. Some people say not to use wallnut leaves because it is bad for your plants but others say that it does not matter. What is your opinion about it. Can I use them or not. Thank you very for your vlogs. I learned a lot of you. Best regards.
Sorry for the DELAY.. Do not worry about the leaves, they will be fine, It you look on that list I have you see that the walnut tree is is using the non popular etco mycorrhizal in it roots only.
Well said, Mark. Thanks for the great video. Happy holidays to you and your family.
And Happy Holidays to you and all your loved one. Plus your garden.
Thanks, great info.
Oops, you forgot to add the link to your Mycorrhizal Plant list into the 'show more' section.
Hi. Thanks for letting me know. You might have to scroll down to see it.
I use dry leaves mixed in soil to lower pH, not sure why you can’t use dry pine needles. They decompose to make food for the soil and then add more as they do.
Pretty sure the trees in the video have there needles cleaned up or there wouldn’t be grass growing under the tree and the needles so sparse. Pine needles/leaves, are great on top of or mixed into soil.
Great point!
Yeah I learned that it's a myth a few months ago as well. Here in our communal garden we use chipped Christmas trees, and it makes a terrific mulch. We stored it on the borders of our garden, and now below it there is great soil, full of humus. So definitely use pine needle mulch, it works amazingly. If you plant right near a tree nothing will grow that's obvious, there's shade, root competition etc... nothing to do with it being a pine tree or anything.
In fact, the guys in Canada who did the study on ramial chipped wood actually used pine trees for their studies at first, then patented the mix of trees that gave them the best results, so everybody assumed that pine needles were bad... No, they just patented one recipe, doesn't mean other mixes of woods don't work.
A scientist in France, Konrad Schreiber, explained that you make your soil acidic only if you BURRY pine product, especially bark which is more acidic. But as a mulch, which breathes, then it's not acidic. Pine needles burried in the ground works like sourkraut : it ferments, so gets sour (acidic). That's all.
Man, that's fascinating. Good video.
THANKS, KINDLY
Don't forget the obvious.. shade under trees. and natural mulching action of the needles.. (same as under any tree that drops leaves that are not removed and allowed to sit and compost. but really good point that we have to quit looking just at the surface what we can see, but what is happening underground.
Yes, all these things are part of it... THANKS
Thanks for the info. I'm thinking of expanding my garden next year. Do you know how close to a fir tree I could safely plant vegetables?
Try to stay away 5 feet from the root zone on the tree.. THANKS for asking
I'm sure the feeder roots of the pine trees also affect the reason other plants would fail to thrive under the canopy...
I agree. THANKS
This depens on multiple things, like pine species, habitat and soil composition, some pine forests on sandy soild have pH of 3 in the top layer, as there is no calcium mineral to mitigate the acidity, thats not the case in loam and clay soils.
I agree with you that here is never one rule that fits all. THANK YOU for watching.
Fascinating! So...how DOES a soil get acidic, eg enough for very happy blueberries?
This is very helpful to see... www.canr.msu.edu/news/soil_test_before_you_plant_blueberries
Adding sulfur to the top of the soil is another way to lower soil pH for blueberries. THANKS
1 hr south of me is 1000.s of acres of blueberry farms with natural acidic soil. If is white sand the stays moist all the time. If you dig a hole the a foot deep the water in it is dark with organic matter. The soil does not hold it, and pass though it causing the soil to be acidic. Plus there is no living mycorrhizal fungi in it.
@@iamorganicgardeningInteresting piece! I planted a couple of blueberries into a hugelkultur to see what would happen - they seem okay, though for all I know they may be stunted! This spring, in the hugelkultur's 3rd(4th?) year, I'll be measuring the pH. If it's way off I'll start adding sulfur.
@@iamorganicgardening A strange place indeed!
My vegatables are just not growing, the mulberry trees around the garden are not producing any fruit as well.the avocado pear trees are bearing poorly as well, what is going on here,we are having ample rain falls,this has only started in the last three seasons, the flowers are doing poorly as well,I live in South Africa
If you garden area is made are real soil of sand, silt and clay there maybe lacking water to keep the microbes alive or they have died off. Do you mulch the area? Make a compost tea or get your hands on rabbit manure to boost the soil life of microbes. Microbes must eat and turn minerals into plant nutrients. If any more information is needed write back please. THANKS
Thank you so much for making this! Simple to understand and nice and clear. Could you please share some links to the charts you used so I can print them off? It would be very much appreciated. We’ve got a home garden in a clearing right next to a pine forest and native bush so we have an abundance of leaf litter. Is it true that you can inoculate young fruit trees if doing a food forest with local forest leaf litter? Perhaps not pine needles? Liked and subscribed.... oops just saw some links!
Yes, This is true about your fruit trees.. THANK YOU for the sub and watching.
I recently had 2 hickory trees cut down that I believed interfered with my garden. I wonder how long it takes to get the soil back to a good range? I keep enriching the soil with manure,compost and leaves. I know that tree roots also rob the soil of much needed moisture.
Another great vid full of useable info! Thanks!!. That soil PH gauge looks serious. Would you recomend it or something similar? where would I get one from? Cheers
You really do not need a PH gauge at all.
@@iamorganicgardening is this because plants adapt the PH of the soil to their needs? How does this work with Blueberries if the soil PH is above their range? Will the PH go down with time or do you need amendments? Thanks in advance
Good video Mark. Happy Thanksgiving.
And Happy Thanksgiving to you, and all dear to you.
Hope this comment finds you. Being a layman gardener and moving in a home with a big pine forest next to me I want to take actual soil and decomposed needles from under the trees and use that to build my raised garden . Is this a good idea? In other words is the soil any different to the soil in a wooded area without pine trees or will I find it having a high acidity PH?
Thanks for that video, very helpful. I downloaded your PDF of ECTO vs ENDO mycorrhizal plants and I noticed that 'Cedar' is on the ecto list and then 'Arborvitae' on the endo list. I wonder if you have any further insight on that? I have seen both terms 'cedar' and 'arborvitae' used interchangeably to describe any type of Thuja shrub.
I am curious about this because I want to oprtimize the soil conditions for a lot of Thuja occidentalis (eastern white cedar) that I want to grow. I know that they enjoy more _alkaline_ soil but I wonder if I have to tilt towards ecto or towards endo mycorrhizal fungii to give them the best conditions. Thanks and keep up the good work on your videos!
Thank you! Great input - as always. By the way: The gauge on the pH-meter probably split at 7 from red/green, because *7 is neutral pH.* Then the red is towards acidic and green towards base, so the color is most likely just meant as a divider, because base pH (green) is not generally always better than acidic (red) - it always depends on teh circumstances. Anyhow: The nutrient availability chart towards the end of the Video should make it clear for everybody.
Thanks for this video Mark! I think just about everyone I've talked to in person is under the same impression, that pines and their needles make the ground too acidic for gardening. As for the mycorrhizal connections, I've read/seen that many of the different types of fungi can work together and actually create a larger network to source from. I'm not sure on the specifics other than my anecdotal evidence, but I'd like to think the 2 basic types can work together once established. There are some plants that use both endo and ecto as well.
Our "zone 4" property used to be (1940's) farmland and was planted with red pines in the 70's. There are some poplars, oaks, maples, hazels, and lots of beech that are starting in the understory, but the canopy is mostly all pine. The forest floor is also mostly pine needles, some grass, and lots of ferns and moss. We are on sandy loam soil. I haven't had much luck checking the ph myself with the cheap meter I bought, so I can't really say what it is where.
I've been raking the needles around the yard and they have been my main source of garden mulch. They help to suppress weeds and keep the sandy soil moist.
It was our first year gardening here, and many things did pretty well, some not as much. I can't imagine the pine needles have hurt anything, (other than I had them too thick around the peppers, which seem to like the soil a little warmer and drier.) I didn't have any compost to add until late in the season, and the beds were either covered with cardboard and mulch or double-dug and then mulched.
I also made a long hugel/swale out of many of the fallen pine trees, separating the feeder roots of the large living pines in the yard and the garden/food forest. The swale also serves as a drainage ditch, emptying into a hopefully future small wetland area for beneficial organisms, during big storms. I planted black raspberry, clover, alfalfa, lots of beans, squash, sunflowers, and daikon radish along the hugel-mound and they did pretty well, even though many recommend against using pine logs. Next year I'll try planting more variety on the mounds.
I'm also working on large hugel-mounds in the forest out of the many diseased/fallen pines. Since we have sandy soil, from what I have been researching, if there is a drought a decomposing fungi known as armillaria begins feeding on live trees. Any of the trees less than 15 years old or so aren't able to recover after and the become diseased and fall. I am building the hugel-mounds in an effort to store water to help in the event of the next possible drought.
Given all the work that I will be doing, and the open ground after covering the mounds, I will be attempting to grow different perennials and annuals in the forest, under the pines. I'm hoping by using the food forest/garden plants/soil/compost, many of which I have innoculated with beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizal fungi, I will be able to find some sort of balance to grow some food there as well. Although it will likely largely be grown as trap-crops for the deer, skunks etc.. that enjoyed harvesting from the yard this year..
I have also used cedar as mulch in the past with no problems. Since what I have here is pine wood and needles, I will continue to use them unless I find an issue in the future...
THANK YOU for sharing all this wonderful information. Yes, I agree nature will work together. The key to this is like you say is trees or perennials. These are at the top of the list to work together because they have a living root in the ground 24/7 365 days a year. Als, that is why brassica do well in your area because they use neither one of the mycorrhizal fungi. As you state and what I say say also that there will never be a problem using pine needles as garden mulch for any type plant.
Thank you for helping me find this information in the first place!
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
I have pine trees that line my property boundaries on two sides. I would like to build my composting bins under the pine tress. Would this not be a wise ideal? thanks in advanced
You can do it! And all will be fine. You can even ad pine needles to you compost as a brow material up to 20% Thanks
Where did you find the mycorrhizal chart of what plants use what? Thanks in advance! Good job ! From Perris Ca
Just doing some research online... THANKS.
Great video but I'm still wondering: can I use pine needles as a mulch for my garden?
So long as I'm not too close to the roots of the tree?
Ecto is a type of fungus that lives on the roots of the tree?
Yes you can! The tree example ( a pine tree that uses different fungi ) that is not helpful to all vegetables. See list in the description for help what trees or plants you can plant next too. Yes, Ecto is a fungi that lives on pine tree roots. See list at this link. Mycorrhizal LIST ( there are two types.ENDO & ECTO ) link: www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf
@@iamorganicgardening OK but say I'm 50 feet away, can I still have an endo garden?
Plus I cut down the tree so the fungi should die out, right?
Thanks!
lots of great information.
Perfect, Thanks
Mark, my garden sits between large pine trees 70-80ft tall. Ive never had any problems with my tomatoes which are never beyond 12ft away from a pine. Any thoughts about why the endo is not hurting my plants?
Your pine trees are Etco type.. But as you wrote to me once before you have a living roots in your garden all the time of Endo from your speedwell and dead nettle growing in you garden that is helping you tomatoes plants and others.
@@iamorganicgardening I'd forgotten those. Thanks for quick reply. So surprised you remembered my little garden. 😁
So if I'm starting a garden using the "back to eden" method, it is fine to use a mix of pine needles/dry leaves instead of only wood chips as my top layer?
Yes, and all will be great forward for your garden. THANKS.
@@iamorganicgardening awesome!! Thank you so much!
Do you think this theory would apply to redwood leaves as well ?
Great video. Thanks for the information. However, I have a question. I used pine needles for my citrus tree last year and soon after my citrus tree experienced a terrible infestation of scales pests. It almost killed my citrus tree that was healthy and gave me a huge harvest of lemons just 5 months ago. At first I was perplexed by the scale infestation, because I did not realize that the pine needle caused it. I did not make the connection and did not know where the scale had come from. But just recently it dawned on me that pine needle might have brought the scale pests. I went on line and googled it. Sure enough! I have found that scales can infest pine trees and suck on pine trees sap. So even though I love pine needles, but I hate the scales and its larvaes that come with pine needles. Do you have any suggestions that might be able to treat the pine needles before you use it as mulch so that you unintentionally bring pests infestation to trees and vegetables in your gardens? Thank you.
I strongly recommend not using anything you have to "treat" before using. Treating things is what has destroyed our soil. Pine needles make a great mulch, but if they cause problems for citrus, then just find something else. Any organic material will work as a mulch.
so pine needs are good for blueberry? roots shallow enough?
Sorry, Not Really. They do not help in any way except as a mulch to keep weeds down. THANK YOU for asking.
Thank you , have shared this ;D
Awesome, thank you!
Love it! 💚
THANK YOU so very Much.
id say your conclusion was incorrect. you took the two readings in spots way too close together. so the pH is the same just a little bit downhill from those pine trees just means that acidity from the pine trees is getting washed down there by heavy rains and snowmelt. try taking one reading in a pine forest and one reading in an oak forest with zero pine trees if you want accurate results.
Does adding pine/fir shavings to my clay/loam soil lower ph?
It does not change anything by adding either one.
@@iamorganicgardening thank you!
6.5 is probably the best ph for the average plant. It may actually have to do with the carbonic acid produced in healthy system not how good it is for the plant. Just a hypothesis.
It is part of it.. THANK YOU
🌲Thank You
Glad to hear that..
so if the soil ph is say 4.8 -5 and you start adding all these azomites and worm castings and teas etc etc the plants wont access them??
They still will just smaller amounts .. But in time the plants will grow your soil and raise the PH to what they need. ALL is good. THANK YOU for asking.
Little info about that meter please. Thanks Mark
Hello. It is a Kelway Soil pH and Moisture Meter
@@iamorganicgardening Thanks
2:45 there ya go
I would be more interested to see a pH measurement in an actual forest. Odds are these pine needles are gathered up and hauled by a landscaping company every so often, mitigating any acidic affect they may or may not have.
Those trees are in a park, and they never pick up the pine needles
@@iamorganicgardening Fair enough. Parks in my area have landscaping crew that come several times a year and chop bushes down and rake up leaves and needles.
Well done Mark, very good explanation. 👍🌱😁 Happy holidays to you and your family!
THANK YOU... and Happy Holidays to you and all your loves ones...plus your organic garden
@@iamorganicgardening 💖
Endo is mainly bacteria (fast growing plants); Ecto is mainly fungi, slow/med growing plants. Fast growing plants need more nutrients faster, bacteria does this, fungi does not do this so well. Fungi excels at med/term nutrition.
Endo & Ecto are names for both types of Mycorrhizal fungi. Nothing to do with bacteria : Open this link :
www.rootnaturally.com/PlantListMycorrhizal.pdf
WOW. I need to read more 😬
That is what I said,, When I started going organic. THANK YOU..