Thank you. I'm also think that mock Spanish in some cases harms also Americans that are required to learn the language, because having this stereotype of the Spanish language as a language without history behind, a language to talk about trivial things, a language with cringy pronunciation creates an artificial cultural barrier that drops the motivation to learn it and makes it more difficult to learn than it really is.
I think it’s quite a leap to say that a non-spanish speaker saying “mucho gracias” or “no problemo” is an attempt to, or in effect negates or diminishes the sophisticated aspects of the language or culture. As English being my first language, when I go to Mexico and a Spanish speaker tries the one or two English words that they know on me, I don’t take it as a slap in the face to Shakespeare. I take it as two people from different cultures finding a trivial and cheeky way to connect.
Thank you for your comment. If an English speaker travels to Mexico and says "mucho gracias", that "mucho gracias" expression itself may *seem* similar to mock Spanish. However, the crucial thing here is not the expression itself, but the speaker's genuine intention to communicate with Spanish speakers. This makes "mucho gracias" in this scenario an example of learner Spanish, a phenomenon that I didn't take up in this video. In contrast, the crucial aspect of mock Spanish is that the speaker's primary purpose is to perform a casual, fun persona, usually for the benefit of other English speakers.
I live in a non english speaking country. Is it offensive to mock English too ? (Most of the world do it everytime, imiting english, speaking in speudo english to appear « cool », etc. ). Is that wrong too ? In the whole world, the english language is associated with wild capitalism, Mc Donald’s, Donald Trump, Mickey mouse, Cow Boys and the Queen of England... is that a problem ? Is it offensive towards english speaker who do not fit or like those stereotypes ?
Adriano Celentano's Prisencolinensinainciusol is a classic example: th-cam.com/video/-VsmF9m_Nt8/w-d-xo.html When I ask my students whether it offends them, they always say no. What could explain this? It's helpful that you point out that there are stereotypes associated with English speakers as well, and some of those stereotypes are about negative characteristics. But the thing is, those negative perceptions do not change the fact that English and its speakers have power and privilege. Mock English and mock Spanish both activate stereotypes, but mock Spanish activates stereotypes that actually harm its speakers in tangible ways.
Mai Kuha Spanish speakers have power too. Many spanish speaking countries are powerful countries, as much a english does. Spain is as developped as england (more on many points actually). Spanish is one of the major languages of western civilisation as much as english. You seem to stereotype spanish speaking people as if they were poor and powerless. Sure there are poor spanish speaking peoples, but actually that also the case for english, many english speaking countries are poorer than the poorer spanish speaking countries (english speaking Africa, India, etc.). I do not understand the goal of making these sort of negative stereotypes about spanish speaking peoples, it makes no sense other than trying to make a wide large and diverse category of very different people some sorts of victims.
@@fablb9006 Yes, I made some of these points in the very video we are discussing... Have a listen @17:50 here: onbeing.org/starting-points/are-we-not-of-interest-to-each-other/
...Let me tell you an anecdote that haunts me. In 2019, I was in a group of tourists in Denmark visiting the studio of world-renowned sculptor Jens Galschiøt. As he began to guide our tour, he encouraged us to leave our bags in a pile on the floor instead of carrying them around the huge place. He gestured to a young woman, one of his interns, and made what he thought was a funny joke: "She will probably not steal them, although she is Mexican". Clearly, the young woman had a great deal of agency and competence in her life. And yet, no English speaker would have this particular "joke" made about them; that is a privilege English speakers have.
Mai Kuha if the english speakers of your group had been from Belize, Nigeria or Jamaica while the spanish speakers were from Madrid would you think it would be the same ? I sure it wont. The language has nothing to do with that, but rather the stereotype that in the USA People of Mexican origins are often percieved has thieves. The same stereotypes applies here to north Africans, but not to spanish speakers. In Europe there aren’t special stereotype against Spanish speaking peoples, nor positive ones towards english speaking. These are stereotypes against Spanish speakers are cliches that are typically American. In latin Europe no one would have those kind of ideas about spanish language. Spanish is just other latin language like the other, like french, Italian or Portuguese, we fell that closeness between our latin cultures. In US or the parts of Europe where germanic languages are spoken there might be some stereotypes about latin languages, and some people would might make some more or less good taste jokes about latin languages speakers, like on how funny or unserious our languages might sound to them. You might hear people making jokes saying « pizza » « ciao bella » or « mafia » to Italians or « baguette » « voulez-vous coucher avec moi » to french people... that a big stupid, a bit ingorant of other cultures... but it is not a big deal. It is no need to create a false sense of victimness about that. We are not victims and do not want to be. Let’s face it, we speakers of latin languages too make language jokes about other languages, we specially make fun of germanic language because of how harsh they sound, we can make fun of english, chinese or Japanese, Russian or Arabic... and they do the same to us. I am a native french and spanish speaker. And I am not offended niether by mock french (many Anglos do it too, especially a few years ago when it was cool to french bashing), nor by mocking spanish. If I was, I should apply to it also for any other language and should consider that any humour involving other nations and cultures are offenses that had to be fobidden... it would be sad.
I’m curious what you think about intentionally and repeatedly mispronouncing Spanish words. For instance “tortilla” pronounced tor till ah and someone literally just brushing it off as if it were the same as potato potahto. What are your thoughts? Thank you
If we set aside for the moment the question "what is the correct pronunciation of 'tortilla'?" and ask instead "what social messages do the various pronunciations of 'tortilla' convey?", it becomes apparent that the answer is not the same in every situation. If an English speaker moves to Mexico and 20 years later is still all "tor till ah", that's one thing. But if English speakers are talking among themselves in English, then pronouncing "tortilla" and other loanwords according to English phonology is simply the normal thing to do. In this context, one English speaker suddenly shifting to the Spanish pronunciation of "tortilla" would be perceived by the other English speakers as maybe wanting to be more distant from them, or even better than them, maybe taking up a sort of world traveler identity or something like that. In practice, in this situation it wouldn't do much good to protest "but I am using the *correct* pronunciation" if your friends are upset with you because they think you are putting on airs. In the following story, linguist (and my former classmate) Dan explains these issues well @02:30. Unfortunately, the reporter immediately rejects his answer because it wasn't what he wanted to hear! archive.wtip.org/wtip-investigates-how-correctly-say-word-sauna
Thank you. I'm also think that mock Spanish in some cases harms also Americans that are required to learn the language, because having this stereotype of the Spanish language as a language without history behind, a language to talk about trivial things, a language with cringy pronunciation creates an artificial cultural barrier that drops the motivation to learn it and makes it more difficult to learn than it really is.
I think it’s quite a leap to say that a non-spanish speaker saying “mucho gracias” or “no problemo” is an attempt to, or in effect negates or diminishes the sophisticated aspects of the language or culture. As English being my first language, when I go to Mexico and a Spanish speaker tries the one or two English words that they know on me, I don’t take it as a slap in the face to Shakespeare. I take it as two people from different cultures finding a trivial and cheeky way to connect.
Thank you for your comment. If an English speaker travels to Mexico and says "mucho gracias", that "mucho gracias" expression itself may *seem* similar to mock Spanish. However, the crucial thing here is not the expression itself, but the speaker's genuine intention to communicate with Spanish speakers. This makes "mucho gracias" in this scenario an example of learner Spanish, a phenomenon that I didn't take up in this video. In contrast, the crucial aspect of mock Spanish is that the speaker's primary purpose is to perform a casual, fun persona, usually for the benefit of other English speakers.
I live in a non english speaking country. Is it offensive to mock English too ? (Most of the world do it everytime, imiting english, speaking in speudo english to appear « cool », etc. ). Is that wrong too ?
In the whole world, the english language is associated with wild capitalism, Mc Donald’s, Donald Trump, Mickey mouse, Cow Boys and the Queen of England... is that a problem ? Is it offensive towards english speaker who do not fit or like those stereotypes ?
Adriano Celentano's Prisencolinensinainciusol is a classic example:
th-cam.com/video/-VsmF9m_Nt8/w-d-xo.html
When I ask my students whether it offends them, they always say no. What could explain this? It's helpful that you point out that there are stereotypes associated with English speakers as well, and some of those stereotypes are about negative characteristics. But the thing is, those negative perceptions do not change the fact that English and its speakers have power and privilege. Mock English and mock Spanish both activate stereotypes, but mock Spanish activates stereotypes that actually harm its speakers in tangible ways.
Mai Kuha Spanish speakers have power too. Many spanish speaking countries are powerful countries, as much a english does. Spain is as developped as england (more on many points actually). Spanish is one of the major languages of western civilisation as much as english. You seem to stereotype spanish speaking people as if they were poor and powerless. Sure there are poor spanish speaking peoples, but actually that also the case for english, many english speaking countries are poorer than the poorer spanish speaking countries (english speaking Africa, India, etc.). I do not understand the goal of making these sort of negative stereotypes about spanish speaking peoples, it makes no sense other than trying to make a wide large and diverse category of very different people some sorts of victims.
@@fablb9006 Yes, I made some of these points in the very video we are discussing... Have a listen @17:50 here: onbeing.org/starting-points/are-we-not-of-interest-to-each-other/
...Let me tell you an anecdote that haunts me. In 2019, I was in a group of tourists in Denmark visiting the studio of world-renowned sculptor Jens Galschiøt. As he began to guide our tour, he encouraged us to leave our bags in a pile on the floor instead of carrying them around the huge place. He gestured to a young woman, one of his interns, and made what he thought was a funny joke: "She will probably not steal them, although she is Mexican".
Clearly, the young woman had a great deal of agency and competence in her life. And yet, no English speaker would have this particular "joke" made about them; that is a privilege English speakers have.
Mai Kuha if the english speakers of your group had been from Belize, Nigeria or Jamaica while the spanish speakers were from Madrid would you think it would be the same ? I sure it wont. The language has nothing to do with that, but rather the stereotype that in the USA People of Mexican origins are often percieved has thieves. The same stereotypes applies here to north Africans, but not to spanish speakers.
In Europe there aren’t special stereotype against Spanish speaking peoples, nor positive ones towards english speaking. These are stereotypes against Spanish speakers are cliches that are typically American. In latin Europe no one would have those kind of ideas about spanish language. Spanish is just other latin language like the other, like french, Italian or Portuguese, we fell that closeness between our latin cultures.
In US or the parts of Europe where germanic languages are spoken there might be some stereotypes about latin languages, and some people would might make some more or less good taste jokes about latin languages speakers, like on how funny or unserious our languages might sound to them. You might hear people making jokes saying « pizza » « ciao bella » or « mafia » to Italians or « baguette » « voulez-vous coucher avec moi » to french people... that a big stupid, a bit ingorant of other cultures... but it is not a big deal. It is no need to create a false sense of victimness about that. We are not victims and do not want to be.
Let’s face it, we speakers of latin languages too make language jokes about other languages, we specially make fun of germanic language because of how harsh they sound, we can make fun of english, chinese or Japanese, Russian or Arabic... and they do the same to us.
I am a native french and spanish speaker. And I am not offended niether by mock french (many Anglos do it too, especially a few years ago when it was cool to french bashing), nor by mocking spanish. If I was, I should apply to it also for any other language and should consider that any humour involving other nations and cultures are offenses that had to be fobidden... it would be sad.
I’m curious what you think about intentionally and repeatedly mispronouncing Spanish words. For instance “tortilla” pronounced tor till ah and someone literally just brushing it off as if it were the same as potato potahto. What are your thoughts? Thank you
If we set aside for the moment the question "what is the correct pronunciation of 'tortilla'?" and ask instead "what social messages do the various pronunciations of 'tortilla' convey?", it becomes apparent that the answer is not the same in every situation. If an English speaker moves to Mexico and 20 years later is still all "tor till ah", that's one thing. But if English speakers are talking among themselves in English, then pronouncing "tortilla" and other loanwords according to English phonology is simply the normal thing to do. In this context, one English speaker suddenly shifting to the Spanish pronunciation of "tortilla" would be perceived by the other English speakers as maybe wanting to be more distant from them, or even better than them, maybe taking up a sort of world traveler identity or something like that. In practice, in this situation it wouldn't do much good to protest "but I am using the *correct* pronunciation" if your friends are upset with you because they think you are putting on airs.
In the following story, linguist (and my former classmate) Dan explains these issues well @02:30. Unfortunately, the reporter immediately rejects his answer because it wasn't what he wanted to hear!
archive.wtip.org/wtip-investigates-how-correctly-say-word-sauna