Kelsey has made an interesting system. OSR style but with modern mechanics. A good way to appeal to two separate markets. 2023 is the year of Shadows. Shadowdark and Shadow of the Weird Wizard.
10:34-12:30 You nailed it. Shadowdark is counter-programming. It is the exact opposite of everything WoTC has done in terms of rules and aesthetics. Rock on.
The phenomenal clean & organized layout of this (the opposite of the chaotic layout of Morkborg), the terse direct writing style, and the smattering of DCC injected into it is what sold me to back it, along with the fact you can use any OSR adventure with it with minimal fuss. I agree, I think this is going to have sticking power.
@@frogknightgames …. It is black and white colour, consistently one or two page spreads, with one readable font for text and one readable font for uniform heading with plentiful white space. I do not see the similarity to Morkborg, I guess we just see this different and that is ok,
@@Finniganmydog Oh no. Misread as you saying it was similar. The font is fine, and yeah white space, but the verbage and overall layout kills its readability for me.
Only one of those reviews was sponsored, and they were very clear about it up front. Only one. Other than that, this was a fantastic review and I appreciate your opinions.
Appreciated! My bad! And it wasn’t a slight. I’m not against people gettin them dolla bills. In the words of my friend, The OG GM, “pay me, Kelsey, I can be bought.”
@@AaronthePedantic I appreciate your response. When you said something about "all those paid reviews" I took it negatively, and I didn't want it to sound like she didn't deserve all the attention Shadowdark is getting. Because she absolutely deserves it. I did enjoy your review overall though... So thanks for that. I'm gonna sub and watch more of your stuff.
@@sonic_gloom Yes, unfortunately in hindsight that single paid review came back to bite Kelsey a little (somehow a few people mispoke and somehow it turned into several paid reviews) -- but you are right -- it was only one paid review -- and the guy would have given her a good review anyway (without pay)-- and he was super clear in his review that it was a paid review. Everything Kelsey has been done has been completely above board and she does deserve all the attention she is getting. On a slightly different topic -- I really thing you tube content creators should not do paid reviews. You're making money on views and there is patron. I try to avoid paid reviews like the plague. In fact, I never watched that review, because as soon as I heard that it was paid -- I moved on. Again, nothing on Kelsey -- her actions have proven to be absolutely stellar.
I wanted to tell you that starter is free on DTRPG, someone else did it already so Ill just leave a comment for the sake of it. I really like the idea of this doing well and pulling people away from both 5e and PF2 into something new and indie.
I agree with you. I like the idea of SD serving as a gateway from D&D 5E. Note I don't think SD is pulling PF players. IMO different demographic. What is happening is more people are going from 5E to other games like SD and PF. PF more than doubled their business last year due to the OGL debacle. Many companies did extremely well last year because of the OGL mess -- other large beneficiaries in addition to Paizo were Chaosium and Green Ronin. D&D will still do extremely well IMO -- but it is really nice seeing people try other games (other than D&D) after the OGL mess. And it was a nice wakeup call to Hasbro execs that people will look elsewhere if you get too heavy handed.
I've been tinkering with 5E for years to fix the power creep and other issues. Shadowdark did it all in one simple, efficient and well organized package. After running just one play test session using the Shadowdark Quickstart guide, my players voted to ditch 5E and switch to SD. It has all the vibe and sensibilities of a high quality OSR experience, but delivers it using updated, intuitive mechanics that even a beginner can learn. I backed it at the Legendary level wouldn't be surprised to see it push $1M on the Kickstarter. It's an ideal TTRPG system at just the right time.
This video rules. I love the approach, you didn't even got into if it's good or not, you wanted to make a marketing analysis and you seem very unbiased about it
I appreciate it! Now that it’s out, I’d like to pick it up. There are some interesting ideas I would like to mine from it. And who knows, maybe I could get my 5E players to give it a spin.
I backed it. I like the nice blend of OS/ Transition rules. I love OSE, and Questing Beast (Knave) was a great first stab as a crossover system that scratches the itches.
Let's wait for the finished product before we proclaim Shadowdark the end all be all of OSR. (Personally, I hope it does so well that WotC management runs screaming in terror at the mere mention of Kelsey's name.)
Feels like a better version of 5E, and that is great for people stuck on that system! However, don't see anything that will pull me away from YZE and Forbidden Lands
This looks very interesting, but I am currently very much into Into the Odd systems. I ran Cairn and played in a Maussritter game and I am liking it even more than OSE. Tho, I should show Shadowdark to my 5e buds and see if they would be down to try it.
Some of this sounds great, and I love the simplicity. Anything that hurts microwotc, is a good thing, and this will hurt them. Now, how many independent game dev's out there it also hurts, I dunno. I fear for them.
Unfortunately everyone is looking for answers (to all their TTRPG desires) and jumping to conclusions with very little information. So is "sexy black cover" enough? How about Rolling 3d6 in order? Is that enough to make it an OSR "smashing success"? Yes, I'm in on the crowd that's funding this game, but I will reserve my judgement for a bit longer until it's in my hands and being played. Cheers!
Mentioned it to a few people, but honestly I think this game more or less fill the niche that The Black Hack 2e tried to fill years back but failed to (partially because of David Black himself, partially due to bad marketing, and partially because production value was meh). Said niche being getting modern and NuSR gamers into more core OSR concepts in a package that is useful to camps from OSR to NuSR to O5R. Definitely interesting, not quite my cup of tea, and I guess I'll wait and see if it continues to be big or simply fizzles out like many NuSR titles.
I would like to get the pdf, although I don't know if I'll enjoy it. It doesn't really address any of the issues I have with d&d, namely the having to roll a d20. Give me bell curves or give me dice pools!
I’m a huge fan of DCC, but it can be a lot for newer players. I love the simplicity of Mork Borg, but the layout and weird character classes aren’t for me. Shadowdark seems like a nice compromise between the functionality and simplicity.
Kelsey is a good kid. She started playing on 2nd ed. AD&D around Geneva WI but had some success writing 5e content. I read the quickstart rules and they are pretty good with maybe some minor tweaks needed. I feel this game will be the most effective way to break some 5e and PF players away and into the OSR. But the ELEPHANT in the room is really this: ------ With so many OSR games, retro clones and fantasy rules lite games out there plus all the ones many of us have already --- what new RPG is really going to be considered seriously? Regardless if they are any good - Labyrinth Lord part two is coming, a new ACKS core book ( pt2? ), etc etc. I might pick up Shadowdark, it looks good , i'm on the fence but mostly because - how many games is too much?
"------ With so many OSR games, retro clones and fantasy rules lite games out there plus all the ones many of us have already --- what new RPG is really going to be considered seriously? Regardless if they are any good - Labyrinth Lord part two is coming, a new ACKS core book ( pt2? ), etc etc. " Counterpoint - a minimal number of the existing retro-clones/rules-lite OSR games really had effective press/marketing... which Shadowdark clearly does. So what might happen is (somewhat sadly) what we think of as the more venerable OSR games simply get left behind by newer stuff like Shadowdark, with better advertising. The other angle I would take it from is that the OSR-sphere uniquely lives upto the idea of making the game your own, much more so than other TT-RPGs. The OSR community actively encourages house-ruling in a way other games don't... but a natural consequence is a glut of published rule-sets. For those already invested in the OSR, this is just assumed par for the course. You pick up a new ruleset at the $10-15 price point to check out it's home-brewed setting, or the 1 or 2 unique mechanics
Question: “how many games is too much?” Answer: “N-1” where is N is the # of games that results in divorce. This equation applies to many Life Variables. ;-)
I want to do more with DCC but the two things that give me trouble are the reliance on using the book at the table for spellcasters (though I guess you could just photocopy your spell charts) and most of all the unorthodox dice. The latter cost a fortune and offend my sensibilities somewhat. A d7? C'mon, quit messin' around.
Hahaha I get it completely. This looks like a great alternative to that. The funny thing is that the things you don’t care for about DCC, I really love about it. Not the reliance on the tables, exactly, but the variety in outcomes. Not the need for more dice, but the ability to use the dice chain to handle situational benefits or penalties without more static numbers. It’s certainly not for everyone.
I think I'm pretty late to this thread. Just wanted to comment on the use of the word "Dominate". ShadowDark will NOT dominate OSR. I've played it and it is a really good game and IMO it will do very well, but dominate no. I really hope it does well because SD doing well actually helps the OSR community -- what SD is -- is a great gateway game for a large population of new TTRPGs players that started playing with D&D 5e into OSR. The reason it will not dominate is because OSR players -- who have been playing OSR already for many, many years already have their preferred OSR games. Some will try SD and experiment (and add SD to their libraries) but for the most part they will stick with their preferences. Where SD comes in -- is it will bring a large number of new D&D 5e players into OSR. Take my example. I think SD is a fantastic game. Very well done! However, I have been playing Castles & Crusades since 2006 (two years after its release in 2004) and my #2 preference is for Basic Fantasy, and then tied for #3 are LL and LoftP. I have and will play SD a bit -- but my favorite is still C&C. Tons of great OSR games out there: C&C, Basic Fantasy, DCC, OSRIC, LofTP, Labyrinth Lord, OSE, Swords & Wizardry, Hyperborea, WWN, Knave, Black Hack, White Box, and more... -- and the strength of OSR lies in this fact. SD is a great thing, but I really dislike people saying it will dominate OSR -- it will NOT. I think it will do extremely well, but no OSR game will dominate -- great choices and diversity is one of the best things about OSR. Welcome to the fold ShadowDark. I am glad you've joined the party!!
Hmm, BECMI hit dice for classes, goblin as playable race. Not necessarily bad, but I am not sure it will be a hit. Most importantly: do orcs have pig faces in there? If not no way I will be committing :P Lower hit points is ok as long as monsters also have less (as it was in BECMI and AD&D).
Well, here's the description of Orcs in the quickstart, you judge: A tusked, tall humanoid with gray skin and pointed ears. And yes, monsters have lower hp than in 5e (orcs have 4 hp).
@@davidmc8478 Well, orcs without pig faces are never going to be genuine orcs, are they? Just lame imitations. Kobolds...sure, but they were never as central as orcs were.
I don’t think it will dominate the OSR, though I may be wrong, because it still has a lot of the sensibilities of 5e in ways that OSE, the hacks, Knave, etc. don’t. I think it will be a great gateway for 5e players, but other than its tables (which look amazing. I cannot wait for those biome random encounters if they’re like the swamp one) it doesn’t offer anything mechanically that I can see that someone who loves OSR style play doesn’t already have. It has wonderful art and wonderful creative content, but the mechanics are for people coming from 5e it seems. It’s also really not out of nowhere…if you’ve followed arcane library, they’ve been working on this for years. She’s been in the RPG space basically all her life and an RPG designer (mostly adventures) professionally for years.
I fully admit that “coming out of nowhere” actually translates to “I’ve been spending the last couple years just reading TSR products and nobody talked about her stuff in my circles” Lol.
I was impressed with everything, except the old d20 initiative system.. I have never cared for it and thats a deal breaker for me. I was ready to back the highest tier before I saw that. With all the great innovation happening elsewhere, I feel like they just glossed over it.
For sure it is too swingy and bonuses often don't matter. This ruleset also enforces turn order during all other play. But I can't find if the turn order stays the same after a fight or goes back to the previous value, reroll maybe? Needs more playtesting imo. Personally I just do players simultaneous, then monsters for each turn/combat phase. Unless they are ambushed/surprised in which case I just swap it to monsters first each phase. Its fast, easy to grok, and reduces arguments.
It’s not exactly the same from what I understand. Whoever rolls the highest goes first, but then I think it’s around the table. Anyway, an initiative system is a very easy change to make. Most people I know who play AD&D used BX initiative, for instance.
I refuse to pay the inflated prices for a pared down version of 5e with some osr stuff added in. I have seen the book. Not worth the price. I could see maybe $25 for the book, $10 for the PDF. They want $30 just for the PDF and $60 for the hard copy. This is exactly what he said. This is 5e, pared down with house rules from osr added in. Will it be better than 5e? Sure. Not hard to do IMO. Nothing revolutionary here. Worth it for $25/$10 dollars, not 2x that or more.
Basic Fantasy RPG is just rehashed B/X or BECMI? What are you talking about?? BFRPG is a skill based d100 system like CoC, and the other Chaosium games. Orlanth, Humakt, and Enalda save us!
It looks like every other OSR game... but with a bunch of house rules I disagree with strongly. 1. A. 1 is always a miss and causes you to "fail to your maximum capacity" Attack rolls "might even hit an ally." 2. Luck tokens for rerolls handed out by GM fiat 3. 3d6 down the line, but with a HEAVY reliance on ability checks due to lacking skills. 4. "Ancestry" ugh... 5. Fully restore all hit points on an 8 hour rest. Also the rules as presented are poorly organized and not streamlined. It really reads like someone's homebrew rules they just listed one after another. Hard pass.
You make good points. I plan to download the pdf and see how the rules hang together. I’ve always hated the critical miss on a 1 thing (after seeing the idea in an old Dragon magazine and trying it out). I’m a (former) kickboxer, and I’ve run probably 100,000 rounds through different firearms. I never once put holes in the wrong target or accidentally kicked a spectator while fighting. It certainly didn’t happen once every 20 shots or swings. Anyway, I like her and the work she’s doing. There are some things I like in every version of D&D dating back to the White Box, and there are some things in D&D I don’t like. Anyway, I’ll get back to drawing up my perpetual home brew. 😄
It's nothing like Mörk Borg.. at all, it's as close to say Pathfinder as it is Mörk Borg with d20 roll based underlying system and some general ideas and troupes that have been central to all the games variants since its inception and which every d20 variant system uses to one extent or another are the only real similarity. Now B/X, Swords and Wizardry and Old School Essentials is where it shares its commonalities and is a much more fair comparison. Perhaps you are mistaking it for Mörk Borg because it ditched the Saturday morning cartoon and anime aesthetic that D&D and Pathfinder has used to promote the game to Generation Pokémon in favor of a grimmer look and feel.. OSR is definitely more in line with the spirit, tonality and aesthetic of original D&D as Gygax and Arneson intended it, the newer versions like Pathfinder and D&D 5th edition are d20 variants and aren't really D&D anymore than any other d20 OGL game. OSR doesn't suit every taste and that's ok, the more games the better imop.
@@DeusMachina71 it isnt but i didnt say it is. The similarity is thats ita the new thing and has novelty appeal. Also i cut my teeth on AD&D and and have played OSR games as well like ACKS, Hyperborea, Lion and Dragon, LOTFP, and DCC. You arent telling me anything about art i dont already know. Its just i see this games main appeal is novelty rather than anything actually compelling. Which is the same thing i feel about Mork Borg
From what I've seen it's yet another collection of someone's cobbled together house rules. I have zero interest in yet another such game and "modern mechanics" have no appeal for me either. The fact that everyone's tripping over themselves to proclaim this the greatest game ever made is yet another reason to skip it. I already own the greatest game ever made.
Hey, other people may have, but I never said it’d be the greatest. I’m saying it’ll make a ton of sales and have lots of people creating content for it. I also said that people who love BX or 1E as is will not be shifted. This is for people who had to home-rule it liberally or weren’t ready to try it yet.
Yes!! I bought the starter kit, as well as backed this Kickstarter. It is a phenomenal game. Thank you for covering it Aaron! Everybody, go check out runehammer as well as dungeon craft videos about this game.
Kelsey has been around for a long time building quality content and working hard to get her brand out there. The rules appear to have some really innovative items and the people who have come to know Kelsey through her outreach and her work are all pretty excited about it. I don't think it's cynical marketing I think it's the result of years of hard work and good work.
I don't know if any one game can dominate the OSR but she manged to do something in a few weeks that ORC still has not done. She has been working on it for a while and her other stuff has been good, I still use her tinny GM Screen I wish her the ebst
See, I haven’t looked at those.. so that could very well be more on point. If so, this is exactly like OSE in aesthetics, but marketed truly for new schoolers
The system is not a good comparison to Mork Borg. It is way better. And I feel it is marketed towards the OSR and new school alike. The trailer sums it up for me. th-cam.com/video/kQqMHZDp35I/w-d-xo.html
@@AaronthePedantic I would argue the art is better, and less cartoonish. Lol But, the first zine is full of great content. An adventure setting, with classes and monsters for it. Fully fleshed out too, not just alterations to existing ones.
DCC is amazing, and I love it. This month was a double Kickstarter win for me with their Dungeon Denizens book and Shadowdark. What a great time to be in the hobby.
I backed DD for a physical DCC copy! Shadowdark, I’m trying to make up my mind on. I’m not sure if I’ll back it, but I’ll probably buy the release if I don’t back it.
I didn't think I'd back it. But then I got a good look at it. And it drew me in. I looks well put together and I really like the art. It looks like it has a lot of sub systems that support its style of play.
Nice vid, man. I backed the full digital version. I think it sounds very cool and I think she's done a really good job blending the two styles (while adding a few of her own innovations as well). This makes me want to play those older-style games because it's taken out most of the parts I didn't like with BX (or essentials).
I have been following this game for a while. It looks really good to me. I'd love to run it through the passes and see how long it keeps my table entertained.
I'm an old schooler and backed this kickstarter. I prefer to DM AD&D but a lot of my gaming friends enjoy the more modern d20 mechanics. I see Shadowdark as a bridge for me to DM an old school feeling RPG that my d20 fan friends can feel good about playing. Haven't run the game yet, so we'll see how that actually works out.
Ooof. I don’t want to say one way or another. This seems more like a boutique product, much like OSE or LotFP or Mork Borg. That tells me probably not. But this is purely my guess.
I backed the kickstarter, but I didn’t realize how robust the free QuickStart is. It’s very impressive. I have sold my group on trying Shadowdark and it looks pretty much ready to run.
I’m going to disagree with you on the demand for power building in the OSR After running SWN players did enjoy the character building options for the game
I backed this. I think your prediction is going to be right on the money. This game has a lot of work behind it and it shows. And I think it comes at just about the right time.
cursory look into this, it *wont.* this is not a real oldschool game. it removes fundamental oldschool rules & mechanics, puts in advantage/disadvantage, uses range zones rather than feet, roll to cast instead of Vancian? yup, more newschool trash masquerading as OSR.
The OSR has many facets. The section that gets the most attention by far would be that which is creating games and making content for them. OSE and Mork Borg had this section cornered for a long time, but I think we’re about to see this game take over. Those who really love classic gaming will stay where they’re at, but there are many who have been waiting for this. New school stuff isn’t “trash” in my eyes, it’s just different. Different styles to create different outputs. I’d never want to play Pathfinder, but I wouldn’t call it trash, either. I recognize that it has its audience and there’s nothing wrong with people for enjoying it. Regardless, it’s OSR by every meaningful definition we use. Six core stats, Hp, AC, d20, classic classes, monsters, and spells, treasure gives XP, etc.
@@AaronthePedantic i disagree. oldschool has fundamental parts of its design that make it what it is. things such as its fundamentally based on oldschool dnd, it uses mechanics from the old edition of dnd its based off of, it uses specific styles of play and behaviour such as rulings over rules. if you compromise that and try to go for something else then its as a base level no longer OSR. like mork borg for example. whatever your game is i don't care, it wont be at my table, but please dont mislabel and try to say you have "apple style pears" or "pizza style hamburgers."
Exactly! It's not compatible with anything else, so I can't see it doing better than Knave or The Black Hack. It's just a very well presented (great art!) and marketed d&d heartbreaker. I read the quickstart and the first thing I did is make a Word document with the changes I would make to the classes... just another set of house rules.
You will be seeing a load of products being made for it, mainstream channels talking about it, it’ll win ENnies, and many people will come into the OSR because of it. That’s what I mean by dominate. Much like OSE and Mork Borg before it. This doesn’t mean that most OSR players will switch to it, though. This draws a very clear line in the sand.
Really feel like their was an overarching negative attitude to your approach. I really don’t understand the purpose of making the video. You literally tell us from the jump that you haven’t read the FREE starter material. You just like scrolled through the kickstarters front page and filmed your reaction…
I listened to QB and PDM’s breakdowns, but I did fully admit to ignorance on any deeper understanding than that right out of the gate. Nobody was saying what they think this will mean to the hobby and I had an opinion, so I said it! I think it will be a massive bridge for a lot of 5E and NuSR, and that the people who always loved BX/AD&D will remain unshifted. I think this will be the flagship series that most content producers will go under for at least a couple of years. I really have no negative feelings toward it. I think my 5E group would probably really like it, but I think my preference would probably be 1E or DCC
That could be worth doing! I’m familiar because of Numenera and 13th Age, but I’ll download the QuickStart rules and do a video on how it’s presented here. As well as some other things she’s got going.
@@AaronthePedantic I first experienced it in ICRPG and later in Dungeon World. I think it would also be good to touch on the differences between outdoor and indoor. For many, Far, being within sight gets weird quick when the part is outdoors because one's ability to spot someone is so much more distant. Thanks Aaron!
I'm the target market: like lots of 5e but thinks the rules get in the way. Like OSR style play but want something more consistent ruleswise internally. Wants a system I can easily houserule. Plus, great charts, art and layout. Though I've been playing since '87, I have a number of younger friends that may be interested in this. Plus, there's a LOT of 5e players that may be looking for something new. I think you're correct in that the things this game does probably appeals to people who would be inclined to play it, and for those that aren't? Well, they already have their games.
My 5E group certainly seems to be itching for something new. But that may be a genre thing more than anything else. They’re floating around CoC, Cyberpunk, even Gamma World. Still, I think the group would really love this, so I will probably back it
After returning to the video comment section this seemed to have blown up. I wanted to extend some friendly advice, it may be good to get the free PDF, read it and then come back and do another review. This one does have a tone of a negative perspective, although I am sure it was not on purpose. I am not personally invested in the product, however comparing it to Mork Borg so much takes away from what it is and how good it is. As, it is pretty far from that system. I have been a subscriber for quite a while now, and appreciate your content so please don't take this as negative criticism.
Sorry chief the beta has bern out for over a year. I got my copies as the Arcane library updated each update. Plus the first hardcopy Cursed Scroll zine,and several digital first Shadowdark modules. I have been creating my own Shadowdark campaign for a game of my own.
Because you missed on a year of awesome gaming. A year of not knowing our Discord family. So you could experience our members creating other products fo Shadowdark. We are not a vast size group. So joining us today to see and experience mother's( Kelsey affectionly known to us ) encouragement in exploring her game. You need to look up the interview from Matthew Colville an Kelsey ( mother ). I ran across her from my interest of his MCMD d&d knowledge. I was followed her once the library was up an running on YT. I grabbed the bets to see her game. You know it grabbed me so hard. I played the original red box from the seventies. I lived through the 80's it's the devil's work hysteria. Since you have the book in your hands. You can see her work is amazing. I dug up my graph paper an created a map. My working has kept me from playing for year's. So here in my hands was exciting to create something for this game. I don't have to create a full world to play inside. Mother put the old dungeon crawl back om play. A simple town map, and regional map that tells of local places to explore. Yes I have to come up with larger town name and a bigger world later. So I created my map,and wrote her an email. I sent her my idea once a rough map was ready. Mother wrote back an talked about The Arcane library an her hope for it's success. I talked to her about running keep on the borderlands as a Shadowdark game. Mother looked over my creation of the ranks of soldiers. That I created beyond her soldier for Shadowdark. So again I say to you come to our Discord. There are so many other people creating for this game. I will close now with a last thought. We librarians are very very great full for the review. Thank you, thank you for looking at this product. Seeing the love,passion put inside the work. I hope you can feel the excitement. Thank you an good night.
It looks interesting. It looks to be inspired by DCC and other OSR titles that the 5e crowd may not have heard of. I think it’s gonna be a good gateway game with which 5e players can graduate to the OSR, or at least games that operate on the OSR’s gaming philosophies.
Really great point that DCC, ICRPC and Shadowdark are good purchases just for the useful charts (and DM guide in ICRPG) no matter what you actually play. I suspect that the timing of Wizards shooting themselves in the foot at least three times in a row right about the time this went to Kickstarter was fortuitous. Kelsey isnt that new. She has been doing her thing and I think helping Runehammer/ICRPG for a time now. There are videos on that channel with her and her design concepts from years ago.
I think you're right about it's target market and the impact it will have at this time. They are sure to get a substantial influx of new school players from the OGL debacle. Whether it has sticking power or not, time will tell. It's not appealing to me as an old-schooler, aside from as an object - looks like it will be well put together and have quality cover and interior art.
Pdf is free... Nothing to lose for just giving it a glance. The DM tables in the full book is quite a resource. Considering SDRPG is compatible with OSE & B/X even more reason to grab the PDF for the full book. I think you will enjoy the content.
Haha, sticking with the system from the 1970s “for now” cracked me up. It’s all good, I’ve been combing through my OSRIC stuff lately and there’s a lot to like. But Shadowdark is the cleanest system I’ve seen since Basic Fantasy, only with way more flavor.
Maybe you missed it, but people are being PAID to do positive reviews about Shadowdark! Various reviewers have already admitted to it; Questing Beast is one. There's nothing special about Shadowdark. It's just a very basic and minimalized version of D&D. There's nothing modern about the game mechanics at all. It's only the cool black-and-white art that's selling the game! The marketing lesson is... "awesome art" can dramatically pump up your game sales.
That was a bunch of people mispeaking, based on not checking the facts. Not "reviewers" but only one paid reviewer, and QB was very clear that he was being paid in his review (in fact, never watched his review because as soon as he mentioned it was a paid review I moved on). Sorry, every time I see this incorrect statement that there was more than one reviewer that was paid, I have to clarify.
@@quantus5875 You aren't clarifying anything. She's never denied paying more than one person. Shadowdark is just a one-shot no one cares about now. Once 6E comes this year, all systems based on 5E rules will die out quickly.
I can’t say I hate any of these new school mechanics, they just don’t always create the effect I want to go for. But then again, I started with new school
Interesting side note: Shadowdark even borrows a mechanic from Lion and Dragon: every level PC's rolls randomly for improvement. 2D6 on table. Hope RPGPundit isnt pissed...?... kidding, the OSR is share and share alike
Hahaha I noticed that, too! I love that mechanic. Though in his, you roll twice or pick once. Does Shadowdark do that as well? I think the choice between methods is neat.
Looks pretty solid, although the promotion is at least to some degree obviously artificial, paid for or leveraging good will from other creators. From my perspective, there has been buzz around Shadowdark during it's 'beta' phase for quite a while... but it wasn't major buzz. Then the KS launches and all of a sudden we get videos from a whose-who of the most notorious YT commentators. So yeah - marketing push. Which to be clear, I'm not criticizing... I'm just saying that's obviously what it is... and what folks have to realize is any marketing push will annoy some folks on general principle. Rules wise it seems mostly solid, except for the whole real-time thing. That seems like a really disruptive game concept, that despite the intent will be MORE management work for me as a GM. Obviously this will vary person to person, but constantly watching the clock on your cellphone seems like way more of a hassle than mentally adding up hours & 10 minute sections in your head. Unfortunately it also seems like the game's primary unique gimmick. So if you're gonna house-rule that particular bit away, why play Shadowdark?
While that seems to be the primary gimmick, I don’t think that’s why people will buy it. I think it’s mostly going to be the overall particular collection of house rules that you can now give to players in one complete, attractive package. I agree that most people will probably ditch the real time stuff, but I think a lot of people will use it because dungeon turns just aren’t their jam. They want danger and drama, not a bunch of fiddly bits like coin weight, splitting 60368gp worth of XP 13 ways, calculating exact distance, memorizing exact #s of spells per day, etc.
Shadowdark is great, but your prediction of Old School Essentials being done didn't come true. OSE is still ontop of the OSR world because it is true to the old experience, while Shadowdark does a great job merging the new with the old while leaning more towards the old (which is better). Both are good options at the same time, you can and maybe should own both. But OSE is no where near over. Dolmenwood looks great, and I hope that when it's released.. Necrotic Gnome will revisit more OSE material.
I agree any predictions that any OSR game is done -- because of the release of SD IMO is not well thought out. SD will grow and OSE will grow. OSE is a fantastic option for those that want a play B/X D&D play. We're a year later and OSE is doing better than ever. One of the things that happened is that the OGL debacle prompted people to look for other games -- and everyone benefited to different degrees. I also argue that SD is a great gateway product that will bring lots of new 5e players into trying out OSR games.
Depends on what you consider the OSR to be. What I mean by it dominating is that you will see incredible amounts of OSE advocates jumping ship and making content for this instead. And there will be a ton of new schoolers that will come over to bolster the economy of it. People who are all about BX and AD&D won’t be moved, but we don’t expect them to
@@AaronthePedantic I dont agree here but with your points on milestone and zone. Not OSR. Nutana. The buzzword maybe but that is what shadow dark is. A 5e designer capitalizing on a buzzword via a Mashup of rules that is brilliantly compiled to market well. Aka itch style fakesr. (My new buzzword) You are right about jumping ship for this. The marketing is solid. Not as solid as what Hasbrouck did eith the fake ogl issue bother created but good. I am grumpy this am as I lost a contract so I apologize to you and all good sir.
@@AaronthePedantic It's a year later and OSE is still going strong. People who are into OSE will stay with OSE. Your correct prediction is your second one that many new 5e players will try SD.
I've pledged this and chose the highest pledge tier but.... I'm still not so convinced by this game. There are lot of videos from famous TH-camrs that advertise this game and i think they are just pushing one of their friend. I don't see any reasons for all this hype and the system seems to be a puzzle of rules taken here and there: dis/advantage from 5e, slot inventory from TBH2 and LotFP, magic system based on checks like DCC, approximate distance like many others. Where is the innovation? The real time system? I think it will give lot of problems on the tables. There are many games that deserve more attention but don't have the "famous TH-camrs" support. I'm thinking about Beyond the Wall and other adventures for example.
I’m with you. For me, it’s a curiosity piece. I’m less following it for innovation and more because it clearly knows what it wants to be: a rules/tactics lite dungeon crawler that will actually be played more than three times. Also, I’m following it because of the zeitgeist. There are OSR games I’m dying to play/run and talk about that nobody has ever heard of. I’ve made those videos and they got, at best, a few dozen views. It’s a shame that it works like that, but the algorithm demands blood.
Any comparison to Mork Borg is cruel and unusual. If Shadowdark is successful, may their third-party products not fall prey to the MB curse Anyone who hates DCC spell tables haven't really _read_ them. Check out *Spider Climb* when you max out the roll. Roll-to-cast is otherwise annoying IMO. Better than old-school people or new-school people are total newbies. Besides their tabula rasa way of looking at things, the vicarious joy you get from their initial experience is a lot of fun. I'm still skeptical about the bigness of Shadowdark. Didn't Five Torches Deep try the new-school-to-old-school approach already? Yeah, this is better-marketed. We'll see. I think it's a lot of fruitless hope amongst the old-schoolers.
I enjoyed roll to cast in Lion & Dragon, even if it didn’t have tables (though it does have special considerations for particularly high rolls). The advantage is pretty clear: you have variability in the amount of spells you can cast in a day. That makes it exciting. You want to make liberal use of spells that you aren’t that worried about losing for the day, but the really important ones, you want to save for when the real stuff goes down. I will say, though, that if you are to fail all your castings, it helps if you are half decent in melee.
I like the book and I like the system. What I am confused is where does it land. Most DM have something similar laying around like OSE, Cairn, Basic Fantasy, Knave that are kinda similar. For me it doesn’t bring anything new to the table. I checked also the DM tools inside and are not for me. There are evetns table with something like “A giant frog jumps from a tree” event which is fine but it gets repetitive at some point. I would like more tables of WHAT doing WHAT and WHERE HOW style or maybe some context based OBJECT AND DESCRIPTOR. But that is only my opinion.
It mainly lands in that it is a combo of 5e ideas and mechanics and OSR ideas and mechanics -- with some indie stuff thrown in. In a way SD is to 5e what C&C is to D&D 3.0/3.5. Although C&C has a much more modern type of 1st Ed feel (and IMO doesn't have an indie feel), while SD has a kind of gritty OSR feel. Both fantastic games!
Kelsey has made an interesting system. OSR style but with modern mechanics. A good way to appeal to two separate markets.
2023 is the year of Shadows.
Shadowdark and Shadow of the Weird Wizard.
Can't wait for Shadow of the Weird Wizard!!
Interesting in the sense of "doesn't make sense" and "really dumb" lol. Just check out the rule for exceptions to torch duration.
10:34-12:30 You nailed it. Shadowdark is counter-programming. It is the exact opposite of everything WoTC has done in terms of rules and aesthetics. Rock on.
This didn't come out of no where. arcane library has been around for awhile and has some great dungeons
Came out of nowhere in my mind at least! But I've been submerged in AD&D for the last year or so. Haha.
The phenomenal clean & organized layout of this (the opposite of the chaotic layout of Morkborg), the terse direct writing style, and the smattering of DCC injected into it is what sold me to back it, along with the fact you can use any OSR adventure with it with minimal fuss.
I agree, I think this is going to have sticking power.
Not a fan of Morkborg, but I got a headache trying to read this one so not sure where the "good layout" comments come from.
@@frogknightgames …. It is black and white colour, consistently one or two page spreads, with one readable font for text and one readable font for uniform heading with plentiful white space. I do not see the similarity to Morkborg, I guess we just see this different and that is ok,
@@Finniganmydog Oh no. Misread as you saying it was similar. The font is fine, and yeah white space, but the verbage and overall layout kills its readability for me.
Only one of those reviews was sponsored, and they were very clear about it up front. Only one. Other than that, this was a fantastic review and I appreciate your opinions.
Appreciated! My bad! And it wasn’t a slight. I’m not against people gettin them dolla bills. In the words of my friend, The OG GM, “pay me, Kelsey, I can be bought.”
@@AaronthePedantic I appreciate your response. When you said something about "all those paid reviews" I took it negatively, and I didn't want it to sound like she didn't deserve all the attention Shadowdark is getting. Because she absolutely deserves it. I did enjoy your review overall though... So thanks for that. I'm gonna sub and watch more of your stuff.
@@sonic_gloom Yes, unfortunately in hindsight that single paid review came back to bite Kelsey a little (somehow a few people mispoke and somehow it turned into several paid reviews) -- but you are right -- it was only one paid review -- and the guy would have given her a good review anyway (without pay)-- and he was super clear in his review that it was a paid review. Everything Kelsey has been done has been completely above board and she does deserve all the attention she is getting.
On a slightly different topic -- I really thing you tube content creators should not do paid reviews. You're making money on views and there is patron. I try to avoid paid reviews like the plague. In fact, I never watched that review, because as soon as I heard that it was paid -- I moved on. Again, nothing on Kelsey -- her actions have proven to be absolutely stellar.
This is a book I’m probably going to back for my players. They learned RPGs through 5e and this’ll ease them into the old school experience.
I wanted to tell you that starter is free on DTRPG, someone else did it already so Ill just leave a comment for the sake of it. I really like the idea of this doing well and pulling people away from both 5e and PF2 into something new and indie.
I agree with you. I like the idea of SD serving as a gateway from D&D 5E. Note I don't think SD is pulling PF players. IMO different demographic. What is happening is more people are going from 5E to other games like SD and PF. PF more than doubled their business last year due to the OGL debacle. Many companies did extremely well last year because of the OGL mess -- other large beneficiaries in addition to Paizo were Chaosium and Green Ronin. D&D will still do extremely well IMO -- but it is really nice seeing people try other games (other than D&D) after the OGL mess. And it was a nice wakeup call to Hasbro execs that people will look elsewhere if you get too heavy handed.
I've been tinkering with 5E for years to fix the power creep and other issues. Shadowdark did it all in one simple, efficient and well organized package. After running just one play test session using the Shadowdark Quickstart guide, my players voted to ditch 5E and switch to SD. It has all the vibe and sensibilities of a high quality OSR experience, but delivers it using updated, intuitive mechanics that even a beginner can learn. I backed it at the Legendary level wouldn't be surprised to see it push $1M on the Kickstarter. It's an ideal TTRPG system at just the right time.
This video rules. I love the approach, you didn't even got into if it's good or not, you wanted to make a marketing analysis and you seem very unbiased about it
I appreciate it! Now that it’s out, I’d like to pick it up. There are some interesting ideas I would like to mine from it. And who knows, maybe I could get my 5E players to give it a spin.
I backed it. I like the nice blend of OS/ Transition rules. I love OSE, and Questing Beast (Knave) was a great first stab as a crossover system that scratches the itches.
Let's wait for the finished product before we proclaim Shadowdark the end all be all of OSR. (Personally, I hope it does so well that WotC management runs screaming in terror at the mere mention of Kelsey's name.)
Hahaha let’s hope so!
Game seems awesome. Love how compact the writing is, much like another game I think everyone should own also, Index Card RPG.
Kelsey and the author of Index Card RPG are friends. Yes, similarities are not by accident.
Feels like a better version of 5E, and that is great for people stuck on that system!
However, don't see anything that will pull me away from YZE and Forbidden Lands
Forbidden lands really has some of the best mechanics ever. They really need a broader spell options IMO. Otherwise I'd call it about perfect.
@@jadane77 More spells incoming with the Bloodmarch expansion!
This looks very interesting, but I am currently very much into Into the Odd systems. I ran Cairn and played in a Maussritter game and I am liking it even more than OSE. Tho, I should show Shadowdark to my 5e buds and see if they would be down to try it.
I see a lot of my 5e house rules here. And some other good ideas.
Some of this sounds great, and I love the simplicity. Anything that hurts microwotc, is a good thing, and this will hurt them. Now, how many independent game dev's out there it also hurts, I dunno. I fear for them.
Hmmm I don’t know how it would hurt independent game devs, unless they’re also going for the “modern BX” approach
It won't hurt independents -- will actually help by bringing in more new 5e players to try OSR.
Unfortunately everyone is looking for answers (to all their TTRPG desires) and jumping to conclusions with very little information.
So is "sexy black cover" enough? How about
Rolling 3d6 in order? Is that enough to make it an OSR "smashing success"?
Yes, I'm in on the crowd that's funding this game, but I will reserve my judgement for a bit longer until it's in my hands and being played.
Cheers!
Mentioned it to a few people, but honestly I think this game more or less fill the niche that The Black Hack 2e tried to fill years back but failed to (partially because of David Black himself, partially due to bad marketing, and partially because production value was meh). Said niche being getting modern and NuSR gamers into more core OSR concepts in a package that is useful to camps from OSR to NuSR to O5R. Definitely interesting, not quite my cup of tea, and I guess I'll wait and see if it continues to be big or simply fizzles out like many NuSR titles.
I would like to get the pdf, although I don't know if I'll enjoy it. It doesn't really address any of the issues I have with d&d, namely the having to roll a d20. Give me bell curves or give me dice pools!
My home brew system (still in early development) pretty much run on 2D6. I like bell curves, too.
@@steelmongoose4956 yeah, my homebrew system is 2d6e with a luck mechanic and then skills are X-in-D.
I’m a huge fan of DCC, but it can be a lot for newer players. I love the simplicity of Mork Borg, but the layout and weird character classes aren’t for me. Shadowdark seems like a nice compromise between the functionality and simplicity.
Absolutely.
Kelsey is a good kid. She started playing on 2nd ed. AD&D around Geneva WI but had some success writing 5e content. I read the quickstart rules and they are pretty good with maybe some minor tweaks needed. I feel this game will be the most effective way to break some 5e and PF players away and into the OSR. But the ELEPHANT in the room is really this:
------ With so many OSR games, retro clones and fantasy rules lite games out there plus all the ones many of us have already --- what new RPG is really going to be considered seriously? Regardless if they are any good - Labyrinth Lord part two is coming, a new ACKS core book ( pt2? ), etc etc.
I might pick up Shadowdark, it looks good , i'm on the fence but mostly because - how many games is too much?
"------ With so many OSR games, retro clones and fantasy rules lite games out there plus all the ones many of us have already --- what new RPG is really going to be considered seriously? Regardless if they are any good - Labyrinth Lord part two is coming, a new ACKS core book ( pt2? ), etc etc. "
Counterpoint - a minimal number of the existing retro-clones/rules-lite OSR games really had effective press/marketing... which Shadowdark clearly does. So what might happen is (somewhat sadly) what we think of as the more venerable OSR games simply get left behind by newer stuff like Shadowdark, with better advertising.
The other angle I would take it from is that the OSR-sphere uniquely lives upto the idea of making the game your own, much more so than other TT-RPGs. The OSR community actively encourages house-ruling in a way other games don't... but a natural consequence is a glut of published rule-sets. For those already invested in the OSR, this is just assumed par for the course. You pick up a new ruleset at the $10-15 price point to check out it's home-brewed setting, or the 1 or 2 unique mechanics
Question: “how many games is too much?” Answer: “N-1” where is N is the # of games that results in divorce. This equation applies to many Life Variables. ;-)
I don't want to buy another game I won't run. Please ignore all the DCC adventures on my shelf.. I will run them... Eventually! It looks decent
Hey, at least those adventures translate well to other systems!
I want to do more with DCC but the two things that give me trouble are the reliance on using the book at the table for spellcasters (though I guess you could just photocopy your spell charts) and most of all the unorthodox dice. The latter cost a fortune and offend my sensibilities somewhat. A d7? C'mon, quit messin' around.
Hahaha I get it completely. This looks like a great alternative to that. The funny thing is that the things you don’t care for about DCC, I really love about it. Not the reliance on the tables, exactly, but the variety in outcomes. Not the need for more dice, but the ability to use the dice chain to handle situational benefits or penalties without more static numbers. It’s certainly not for everyone.
I think I'm pretty late to this thread. Just wanted to comment on the use of the word "Dominate".
ShadowDark will NOT dominate OSR. I've played it and it is a really good game and IMO it will do very well, but dominate no. I really hope it does well because SD doing well actually helps the OSR community -- what SD is -- is a great gateway game for a large population of new TTRPGs players that started playing with D&D 5e into OSR.
The reason it will not dominate is because OSR players -- who have been playing OSR already for many, many years already have their preferred OSR games. Some will try SD and experiment (and add SD to their libraries) but for the most part they will stick with their preferences. Where SD comes in -- is it will bring a large number of new D&D 5e players into OSR.
Take my example. I think SD is a fantastic game. Very well done! However, I have been playing Castles & Crusades since 2006 (two years after its release in 2004) and my #2 preference is for Basic Fantasy, and then tied for #3 are LL and LoftP. I have and will play SD a bit -- but my favorite is still C&C. Tons of great OSR games out there: C&C, Basic Fantasy, DCC, OSRIC, LofTP, Labyrinth Lord, OSE, Swords & Wizardry, Hyperborea, WWN, Knave, Black Hack, White Box, and more... -- and the strength of OSR lies in this fact. SD is a great thing, but I really dislike people saying it will dominate OSR -- it will NOT. I think it will do extremely well, but no OSR game will dominate -- great choices and diversity is one of the best things about OSR. Welcome to the fold ShadowDark. I am glad you've joined the party!!
Hmm, BECMI hit dice for classes, goblin as playable race. Not necessarily bad, but I am not sure it will be a hit. Most importantly: do orcs have pig faces in there? If not no way I will be committing :P Lower hit points is ok as long as monsters also have less (as it was in BECMI and AD&D).
Did Olde Swords Reign not do this already?
Well, here's the description of Orcs in the quickstart, you judge: A tusked, tall humanoid with gray skin and pointed ears. And yes, monsters have lower hp than in 5e (orcs have 4 hp).
I’d be more concerned about kobolds as dogs than orcs as pigs!! (jk)
@@davidmc8478 Well, orcs without pig faces are never going to be genuine orcs, are they? Just lame imitations. Kobolds...sure, but they were never as central as orcs were.
I don’t think it will dominate the OSR, though I may be wrong, because it still has a lot of the sensibilities of 5e in ways that OSE, the hacks, Knave, etc. don’t. I think it will be a great gateway for 5e players, but other than its tables (which look amazing. I cannot wait for those biome random encounters if they’re like the swamp one) it doesn’t offer anything mechanically that I can see that someone who loves OSR style play doesn’t already have. It has wonderful art and wonderful creative content, but the mechanics are for people coming from 5e it seems.
It’s also really not out of nowhere…if you’ve followed arcane library, they’ve been working on this for years. She’s been in the RPG space basically all her life and an RPG designer (mostly adventures) professionally for years.
I fully admit that “coming out of nowhere” actually translates to “I’ve been spending the last couple years just reading TSR products and nobody talked about her stuff in my circles” Lol.
Wow - your comment looks like I wrote it.😊 Exactly my sentiments. Just wrote a comment fairly similar this one, before seeing yours.
no one should dominate the OSR, it is unhealthy for creativity
And no one will. So many great OSR games to choose from.
So an indie 6th edition or more modern take on OSR.
Bingo! Definitely more on the indie side
MR PRESIDENT GET DOWN
I was impressed with everything, except the old d20 initiative system.. I have never cared for it and thats a deal breaker for me. I was ready to back the highest tier before I saw that. With all the great innovation happening elsewhere, I feel like they just glossed over it.
For sure it is too swingy and bonuses often don't matter. This ruleset also enforces turn order during all other play. But I can't find if the turn order stays the same after a fight or goes back to the previous value, reroll maybe? Needs more playtesting imo.
Personally I just do players simultaneous, then monsters for each turn/combat phase. Unless they are ambushed/surprised in which case I just swap it to monsters first each phase. Its fast, easy to grok, and reduces arguments.
It’s not exactly the same from what I understand. Whoever rolls the highest goes first, but then I think it’s around the table. Anyway, an initiative system is a very easy change to make. Most people I know who play AD&D used BX initiative, for instance.
@@AaronthePedantic Looks like you are right there, I missed that part!
I refuse to pay the inflated prices for a pared down version of 5e with some osr stuff added in. I have seen the book. Not worth the price. I could see maybe $25 for the book, $10 for the PDF. They want $30 just for the PDF and $60 for the hard copy. This is exactly what he said. This is 5e, pared down with house rules from osr added in. Will it be better than 5e? Sure. Not hard to do IMO. Nothing revolutionary here. Worth it for $25/$10 dollars, not 2x that or more.
The marketing for the Kickstarter is really weird.
Basic Fantasy RPG is just rehashed B/X or BECMI? What are you talking about??
BFRPG is a skill based d100 system like CoC, and the other Chaosium games.
Orlanth, Humakt, and Enalda save us!
You mixed up the names. What you're talking about is called Basic Roleplaying, also called BRP. Basic Fantasy is a different game
Youre talking about two different systems with similar names
It looks like every other OSR game... but with a bunch of house rules I disagree with strongly.
1. A. 1 is always a miss and causes you to "fail to your maximum capacity" Attack rolls "might even hit an ally."
2. Luck tokens for rerolls handed out by GM fiat
3. 3d6 down the line, but with a HEAVY reliance on ability checks due to lacking skills.
4. "Ancestry" ugh...
5. Fully restore all hit points on an 8 hour rest.
Also the rules as presented are poorly organized and not streamlined. It really reads like someone's homebrew rules they just listed one after another.
Hard pass.
You make good points. I plan to download the pdf and see how the rules hang together. I’ve always hated the critical miss on a 1 thing (after seeing the idea in an old Dragon magazine and trying it out). I’m a (former) kickboxer, and I’ve run probably 100,000 rounds through different firearms. I never once put holes in the wrong target or accidentally kicked a spectator while fighting. It certainly didn’t happen once every 20 shots or swings.
Anyway, I like her and the work she’s doing. There are some things I like in every version of D&D dating back to the White Box, and there are some things in D&D I don’t like.
Anyway, I’ll get back to drawing up my perpetual home brew. 😄
It may capture the Mork Borg crowd, but im not really interested
I feel ya.
It's nothing like Mörk Borg.. at all, it's as close to say Pathfinder as it is Mörk Borg with d20 roll based underlying system and some general ideas and troupes that have been central to all the games variants since its inception and which every d20 variant system uses to one extent or another are the only real similarity. Now B/X, Swords and Wizardry and Old School Essentials is where it shares its commonalities and is a much more fair comparison. Perhaps you are mistaking it for Mörk Borg because it ditched the Saturday morning cartoon and anime aesthetic that D&D and Pathfinder has used to promote the game to Generation Pokémon in favor of a grimmer look and feel.. OSR is definitely more in line with the spirit, tonality and aesthetic of original D&D as Gygax and Arneson intended it, the newer versions like Pathfinder and D&D 5th edition are d20 variants and aren't really D&D anymore than any other d20 OGL game. OSR doesn't suit every taste and that's ok, the more games the better imop.
@@DeusMachina71 It looks like babbys first grimdark. I read through all the rulebooks and saw nothing interesting.
@@DeusMachina71 it isnt but i didnt say it is. The similarity is thats ita the new thing and has novelty appeal. Also i cut my teeth on AD&D and and have played OSR games as well like ACKS, Hyperborea, Lion and Dragon, LOTFP, and DCC. You arent telling me anything about art i dont already know. Its just i see this games main appeal is novelty rather than anything actually compelling. Which is the same thing i feel about Mork Borg
From what I've seen it's yet another collection of someone's cobbled together house rules. I have zero interest in yet another such game and "modern mechanics" have no appeal for me either. The fact that everyone's tripping over themselves to proclaim this the greatest game ever made is yet another reason to skip it. I already own the greatest game ever made.
Hey, other people may have, but I never said it’d be the greatest. I’m saying it’ll make a ton of sales and have lots of people creating content for it. I also said that people who love BX or 1E as is will not be shifted. This is for people who had to home-rule it liberally or weren’t ready to try it yet.
Yes!! I bought the starter kit, as well as backed this Kickstarter. It is a phenomenal game. Thank you for covering it Aaron! Everybody, go check out runehammer as well as dungeon craft videos about this game.
You got it!
Why do you look like me?
Quick start rules are available for free, if you want to check it out before backing the Kickstarter.
Kelsey has been around for a long time building quality content and working hard to get her brand out there. The rules appear to have some really innovative items and the people who have come to know Kelsey through her outreach and her work are all pretty excited about it. I don't think it's cynical marketing I think it's the result of years of hard work and good work.
Yep. I've been a fan of Kelsey's work for a few years now, and I'm glad to see her hard work paying off.
Literally who
I don't know if any one game can dominate the OSR but she manged to do something in a few weeks that ORC still has not done. She has been working on it for a while and her other stuff has been good, I still use her tinny GM Screen
I wish her the ebst
I don't know if the zines really remind me of Mork Borg. But they're really a lot like the Carcass Crawler zines for OSE.
See, I haven’t looked at those.. so that could very well be more on point. If so, this is exactly like OSE in aesthetics, but marketed truly for new schoolers
The system is not a good comparison to Mork Borg. It is way better. And I feel it is marketed towards the OSR and new school alike.
The trailer sums it up for me.
th-cam.com/video/kQqMHZDp35I/w-d-xo.html
@@AaronthePedantic I would argue the art is better, and less cartoonish. Lol But, the first zine is full of great content. An adventure setting, with classes and monsters for it. Fully fleshed out too, not just alterations to existing ones.
DCC is amazing, and I love it. This month was a double Kickstarter win for me with their Dungeon Denizens book and Shadowdark. What a great time to be in the hobby.
I backed DD for a physical DCC copy! Shadowdark, I’m trying to make up my mind on. I’m not sure if I’ll back it, but I’ll probably buy the release if I don’t back it.
I didn't think I'd back it. But then I got a good look at it. And it drew me in.
I looks well put together and I really like the art. It looks like it has a lot of sub systems that support its style of play.
Grognard here- playing since 1e was the only e. Backed this immediately. The layout alone looks fantastic
Very cool! I’m sure as a 1E person, you can completely respect the value of good layout. If OSRIC didn’t exist, I’d still be deciphering 1E. 🤣
@@AaronthePedantic got that right- there were rules buried in that impenetrable DMs guide text we never even knew about much less used
Aaron, grab the PDF quick start guide. It is all free.
Nice vid, man. I backed the full digital version. I think it sounds very cool and I think she's done a really good job blending the two styles (while adding a few of her own innovations as well). This makes me want to play those older-style games because it's taken out most of the parts I didn't like with BX (or essentials).
I think DCC is the best OSR but Shadowdark is earning my respect and love.
I have been following this game for a while. It looks really good to me. I'd love to run it through the passes and see how long it keeps my table entertained.
SOME people have been playing theatre of the mind since the early days. Not all of us were minature/wargamer types.
This video aged like fine wine, apparently. But what's the result 2 years from now? Cha'alt!
Chaalt would run beautifully with this, I think. But there’s always CDSd20
Thanks.
I'm an old schooler and backed this kickstarter. I prefer to DM AD&D but a lot of my gaming friends enjoy the more modern d20 mechanics. I see Shadowdark as a bridge for me to DM an old school feeling RPG that my d20 fan friends can feel good about playing. Haven't run the game yet, so we'll see how that actually works out.
I think that’s the exact same perspective I have on it. While I enjoy 1E & 2E, I know that’s too big of an ask for them.
Physical pledge seems a little high, do you think there will be a POD through drive thru?
Ooof. I don’t want to say one way or another. This seems more like a boutique product, much like OSE or LotFP or Mork Borg. That tells me probably not. But this is purely my guess.
I backed the kickstarter, but I didn’t realize how robust the free QuickStart is. It’s very impressive. I have sold my group on trying Shadowdark and it looks pretty much ready to run.
The QuickStart itself is more than you get from a lot of full Rules Light D&D clones
I’m going to disagree with you on the demand for power building in the OSR
After running SWN players did enjoy the character building options for the game
I think its an unspoke enjoyment
I backed this. I think your prediction is going to be right on the money. This game has a lot of work behind it and it shows. And I think it comes at just about the right time.
cursory look into this, it *wont.*
this is not a real oldschool game. it removes fundamental oldschool rules & mechanics, puts in advantage/disadvantage, uses range zones rather than feet, roll to cast instead of Vancian? yup, more newschool trash masquerading as OSR.
The OSR has many facets. The section that gets the most attention by far would be that which is creating games and making content for them. OSE and Mork Borg had this section cornered for a long time, but I think we’re about to see this game take over. Those who really love classic gaming will stay where they’re at, but there are many who have been waiting for this.
New school stuff isn’t “trash” in my eyes, it’s just different. Different styles to create different outputs. I’d never want to play Pathfinder, but I wouldn’t call it trash, either. I recognize that it has its audience and there’s nothing wrong with people for enjoying it.
Regardless, it’s OSR by every meaningful definition we use. Six core stats, Hp, AC, d20, classic classes, monsters, and spells, treasure gives XP, etc.
@@AaronthePedantic i disagree. oldschool has fundamental parts of its design that make it what it is. things such as its fundamentally based on oldschool dnd, it uses mechanics from the old edition of dnd its based off of, it uses specific styles of play and behaviour such as rulings over rules. if you compromise that and try to go for something else then its as a base level no longer OSR. like mork borg for example.
whatever your game is i don't care, it wont be at my table, but please dont mislabel and try to say you have "apple style pears" or "pizza style hamburgers."
Working a lot helps you buy more Gaming stuff! 😊
Not when you’re paid a salary! Hahaha
dominate...Really? It looks OK...but not amazed by it. It is not 5e enought to be compatible with roll 20 or any standard 5e tools or anything.
Exactly! It's not compatible with anything else, so I can't see it doing better than Knave or The Black Hack. It's just a very well presented (great art!) and marketed d&d heartbreaker. I read the quickstart and the first thing I did is make a Word document with the changes I would make to the classes... just another set of house rules.
You will be seeing a load of products being made for it, mainstream channels talking about it, it’ll win ENnies, and many people will come into the OSR because of it. That’s what I mean by dominate. Much like OSE and Mork Borg before it. This doesn’t mean that most OSR players will switch to it, though. This draws a very clear line in the sand.
Sticking w DCC / MCC / Weird Frontiers for my OSR style games.
How is Weird Frontiers? I see they have more in stock
@@AaronthePedantic it’s fantastic - book is huge. I think they are selling it as two books now.
This looks like a great variant for anyone to play. And it blew up ks. I'm really impressed by Kelsey and her work.
Really feel like their was an overarching negative attitude to your approach. I really don’t understand the purpose of making the video. You literally tell us from the jump that you haven’t read the FREE starter material. You just like scrolled through the kickstarters front page and filmed your reaction…
I listened to QB and PDM’s breakdowns, but I did fully admit to ignorance on any deeper understanding than that right out of the gate. Nobody was saying what they think this will mean to the hobby and I had an opinion, so I said it! I think it will be a massive bridge for a lot of 5E and NuSR, and that the people who always loved BX/AD&D will remain unshifted. I think this will be the flagship series that most content producers will go under for at least a couple of years. I really have no negative feelings toward it. I think my 5E group would probably really like it, but I think my preference would probably be 1E or DCC
Also need to watch Runehammer's video on it.
Can you do a deep dive into Zone Combat? I think many DMs and Players don't understand Near and Far etc.
That could be worth doing! I’m familiar because of Numenera and 13th Age, but I’ll download the QuickStart rules and do a video on how it’s presented here. As well as some other things she’s got going.
@@AaronthePedantic I first experienced it in ICRPG and later in Dungeon World. I think it would also be good to touch on the differences between outdoor and indoor. For many, Far, being within sight gets weird quick when the part is outdoors because one's ability to spot someone is so much more distant. Thanks Aaron!
I'm the target market: like lots of 5e but thinks the rules get in the way. Like OSR style play but want something more consistent ruleswise internally. Wants a system I can easily houserule. Plus, great charts, art and layout.
Though I've been playing since '87, I have a number of younger friends that may be interested in this. Plus, there's a LOT of 5e players that may be looking for something new.
I think you're correct in that the things this game does probably appeals to people who would be inclined to play it, and for those that aren't? Well, they already have their games.
My 5E group certainly seems to be itching for something new. But that may be a genre thing more than anything else. They’re floating around CoC, Cyberpunk, even Gamma World. Still, I think the group would really love this, so I will probably back it
I backed it, but realistically I'll play it till Dolmanwood comes out I think.
Playing shadowdark is so much fun you should get it
What a great video! I really appreciated your very unbiased approach and honest opinions. Thank you for putting your insight out there!
My thanks! 😁
After returning to the video comment section this seemed to have blown up. I wanted to extend some friendly advice, it may be good to get the free PDF, read it and then come back and do another review. This one does have a tone of a negative perspective, although I am sure it was not on purpose. I am not personally invested in the product, however comparing it to Mork Borg so much takes away from what it is and how good it is. As, it is pretty far from that system. I have been a subscriber for quite a while now, and appreciate your content so please don't take this as negative criticism.
I got you, man. I actually gave them a pretty good read yesterday and plan to do another video.
@@AaronthePedantic looking forward to the video ;-)
Sorry chief the beta has bern out for over a year. I got my copies as the Arcane library updated each update.
Plus the first hardcopy Cursed Scroll zine,and several digital first Shadowdark modules.
I have been creating my own Shadowdark campaign for a game of my own.
Why are you sorry? 😅 It “came out of nowhere” for me because I’ve been firmly immersed in AD&D and nobody on my side of YT was talking about it.
Because you missed on a year of awesome gaming. A year of not knowing our Discord family.
So you could experience our members creating other products fo Shadowdark.
We are not a vast size group.
So joining us today to see and experience mother's( Kelsey affectionly known to us ) encouragement in exploring her game.
You need to look up the interview from Matthew Colville an Kelsey ( mother ).
I ran across her from my interest of his MCMD d&d knowledge.
I was followed her once the library was up an running on YT. I grabbed the bets to see her game. You know it grabbed me so hard.
I played the original red box from the seventies. I lived through the 80's it's the devil's work hysteria.
Since you have the book in your hands. You can see her work is amazing. I dug up my graph paper an created a map.
My working has kept me from playing for year's. So here in my hands was exciting to create something for this game.
I don't have to create a full world to play inside. Mother put the old dungeon crawl back om play.
A simple town map, and regional map that tells of local places to explore.
Yes I have to come up with larger town name and a bigger world later.
So I created my map,and wrote her an email. I sent her my idea once a rough map was ready.
Mother wrote back an talked about The Arcane library an her hope for it's success.
I talked to her about running keep on the borderlands as a Shadowdark game.
Mother looked over my creation of the ranks of soldiers. That I created beyond her soldier for Shadowdark.
So again I say to you come to our Discord. There are so many other people creating for this game.
I will close now with a last thought. We librarians are very very great full for the review. Thank you, thank you for looking at this product. Seeing the love,passion put inside the work.
I hope you can feel the excitement.
Thank you an good night.
It looks interesting. It looks to be inspired by DCC and other OSR titles that the 5e crowd may not have heard of. I think it’s gonna be a good gateway game with which 5e players can graduate to the OSR, or at least games that operate on the OSR’s gaming philosophies.
Really great point that DCC, ICRPC and Shadowdark are good purchases just for the useful charts (and DM guide in ICRPG) no matter what you actually play.
I suspect that the timing of Wizards shooting themselves in the foot at least three times in a row right about the time this went to Kickstarter was fortuitous.
Kelsey isnt that new. She has been doing her thing and I think helping Runehammer/ICRPG for a time now. There are videos on that channel with her and her design concepts from years ago.
I think you're right about it's target market and the impact it will have at this time. They are sure to get a substantial influx of new school players from the OGL debacle. Whether it has sticking power or not, time will tell. It's not appealing to me as an old-schooler, aside from as an object - looks like it will be well put together and have quality cover and interior art.
B/X or OSE are all I need. I took time enough to realise it.
Once you find your bliss, all else is superfluous. 😁
Pdf is free... Nothing to lose for just giving it a glance. The DM tables in the full book is quite a resource. Considering SDRPG is compatible with OSE & B/X even more reason to grab the PDF for the full book. I think you will enjoy the content.
I'm sticking with 1e for now.
Always a great choice! And if you’re happy with 1E, I don’t think this would please.
Haha, sticking with the system from the 1970s “for now” cracked me up. It’s all good, I’ve been combing through my OSRIC stuff lately and there’s a lot to like.
But Shadowdark is the cleanest system I’ve seen since Basic Fantasy, only with way more flavor.
Maybe you missed it, but people are being PAID to do positive reviews about Shadowdark! Various reviewers have already admitted to it; Questing Beast is one. There's nothing special about Shadowdark. It's just a very basic and minimalized version of D&D. There's nothing modern about the game mechanics at all. It's only the cool black-and-white art that's selling the game! The marketing lesson is... "awesome art" can dramatically pump up your game sales.
That was a bunch of people mispeaking, based on not checking the facts. Not "reviewers" but only one paid reviewer, and QB was very clear that he was being paid in his review (in fact, never watched his review because as soon as he mentioned it was a paid review I moved on). Sorry, every time I see this incorrect statement that there was more than one reviewer that was paid, I have to clarify.
@@quantus5875 You aren't clarifying anything. She's never denied paying more than one person. Shadowdark is just a one-shot no one cares about now. Once 6E comes this year, all systems based on 5E rules will die out quickly.
@@andynonimuss6298 She actually has said that QB was the only person she paid to do a review.
Love the art! But there are so many OSR games on the market, why are folks publishing more? They're all basically the same rpg.
money! idiots love buying the same game over and over
This one is functionally very different than any OSR stuff.
I hate new school mechanics..
I can’t say I hate any of these new school mechanics, they just don’t always create the effect I want to go for. But then again, I started with new school
Interesting side note: Shadowdark even borrows a mechanic from Lion and Dragon: every level PC's rolls randomly for improvement. 2D6 on table. Hope RPGPundit isnt pissed...?... kidding, the OSR is share and share alike
Hahaha I noticed that, too! I love that mechanic. Though in his, you roll twice or pick once. Does Shadowdark do that as well? I think the choice between methods is neat.
I don't think it will.
We shall have a friendly wager, then!
@@AaronthePedantic sounds good!
Looks pretty solid, although the promotion is at least to some degree obviously artificial, paid for or leveraging good will from other creators. From my perspective, there has been buzz around Shadowdark during it's 'beta' phase for quite a while... but it wasn't major buzz. Then the KS launches and all of a sudden we get videos from a whose-who of the most notorious YT commentators. So yeah - marketing push.
Which to be clear, I'm not criticizing... I'm just saying that's obviously what it is... and what folks have to realize is any marketing push will annoy some folks on general principle.
Rules wise it seems mostly solid, except for the whole real-time thing. That seems like a really disruptive game concept, that despite the intent will be MORE management work for me as a GM. Obviously this will vary person to person, but constantly watching the clock on your cellphone seems like way more of a hassle than mentally adding up hours & 10 minute sections in your head. Unfortunately it also seems like the game's primary unique gimmick. So if you're gonna house-rule that particular bit away, why play Shadowdark?
While that seems to be the primary gimmick, I don’t think that’s why people will buy it. I think it’s mostly going to be the overall particular collection of house rules that you can now give to players in one complete, attractive package. I agree that most people will probably ditch the real time stuff, but I think a lot of people will use it because dungeon turns just aren’t their jam. They want danger and drama, not a bunch of fiddly bits like coin weight, splitting 60368gp worth of XP 13 ways, calculating exact distance, memorizing exact #s of spells per day, etc.
Shadowdark is great, but your prediction of Old School Essentials being done didn't come true. OSE is still ontop of the OSR world because it is true to the old experience, while Shadowdark does a great job merging the new with the old while leaning more towards the old (which is better). Both are good options at the same time, you can and maybe should own both. But OSE is no where near over. Dolmenwood looks great, and I hope that when it's released.. Necrotic Gnome will revisit more OSE material.
I agree any predictions that any OSR game is done -- because of the release of SD IMO is not well thought out. SD will grow and OSE will grow. OSE is a fantastic option for those that want a play B/X D&D play. We're a year later and OSE is doing better than ever. One of the things that happened is that the OGL debacle prompted people to look for other games -- and everyone benefited to different degrees. I also argue that SD is a great gateway product that will bring lots of new 5e players into trying out OSR games.
Solid rules. Will not dominate osr since it is nutana not oldschool.
Will not be buying. Will pirate tables.
Depends on what you consider the OSR to be. What I mean by it dominating is that you will see incredible amounts of OSE advocates jumping ship and making content for this instead. And there will be a ton of new schoolers that will come over to bolster the economy of it. People who are all about BX and AD&D won’t be moved, but we don’t expect them to
@@AaronthePedantic I dont agree here but with your points on milestone and zone.
Not OSR. Nutana. The buzzword maybe but that is what shadow dark is. A 5e designer capitalizing on a buzzword via a Mashup of rules that is brilliantly compiled to market well.
Aka itch style fakesr. (My new buzzword)
You are right about jumping ship for this. The marketing is solid. Not as solid as what Hasbrouck did eith the fake ogl issue bother created but good.
I am grumpy this am as I lost a contract so I apologize to you and all good sir.
@@AaronthePedantic It's a year later and OSE is still going strong. People who are into OSE will stay with OSE. Your correct prediction is your second one that many new 5e players will try SD.
I've pledged this and chose the highest pledge tier but....
I'm still not so convinced by this game.
There are lot of videos from famous TH-camrs that advertise this game and i think they are just pushing one of their friend.
I don't see any reasons for all this hype and the system seems to be a puzzle of rules taken here and there: dis/advantage from 5e, slot inventory from TBH2 and LotFP, magic system based on checks like DCC, approximate distance like many others. Where is the innovation? The real time system? I think it will give lot of problems on the tables.
There are many games that deserve more attention but don't have the "famous TH-camrs" support. I'm thinking about Beyond the Wall and other adventures for example.
I’m with you. For me, it’s a curiosity piece. I’m less following it for innovation and more because it clearly knows what it wants to be: a rules/tactics lite dungeon crawler that will actually be played more than three times.
Also, I’m following it because of the zeitgeist. There are OSR games I’m dying to play/run and talk about that nobody has ever heard of. I’ve made those videos and they got, at best, a few dozen views. It’s a shame that it works like that, but the algorithm demands blood.
Any comparison to Mork Borg is cruel and unusual. If Shadowdark is successful, may their third-party products not fall prey to the MB curse
Anyone who hates DCC spell tables haven't really _read_ them. Check out *Spider Climb* when you max out the roll. Roll-to-cast is otherwise annoying IMO.
Better than old-school people or new-school people are total newbies. Besides their tabula rasa way of looking at things, the vicarious joy you get from their initial experience is a lot of fun.
I'm still skeptical about the bigness of Shadowdark. Didn't Five Torches Deep try the new-school-to-old-school approach already? Yeah, this is better-marketed. We'll see. I think it's a lot of fruitless hope amongst the old-schoolers.
I enjoyed roll to cast in Lion & Dragon, even if it didn’t have tables (though it does have special considerations for particularly high rolls). The advantage is pretty clear: you have variability in the amount of spells you can cast in a day. That makes it exciting. You want to make liberal use of spells that you aren’t that worried about losing for the day, but the really important ones, you want to save for when the real stuff goes down.
I will say, though, that if you are to fail all your castings, it helps if you are half decent in melee.
@@AaronthePedantic I hear you, it's a YMMV thing. For me, I prefer either simple certainty (D&D) or wildly chaotic uncertainty (DCC).
I like the book and I like the system. What I am confused is where does it land. Most DM have something similar laying around like OSE, Cairn, Basic Fantasy, Knave that are kinda similar. For me it doesn’t bring anything new to the table. I checked also the DM tools inside and are not for me. There are evetns table with something like “A giant frog jumps from a tree” event which is fine but it gets repetitive at some point. I would like more tables of WHAT doing WHAT and WHERE HOW style or maybe some context based OBJECT AND DESCRIPTOR. But that is only my opinion.
I think it has far enough from retroclones that it occupies new territory. But that also means that people with have much stronger feelings about it.
It mainly lands in that it is a combo of 5e ideas and mechanics and OSR ideas and mechanics -- with some indie stuff thrown in. In a way SD is to 5e what C&C is to D&D 3.0/3.5. Although C&C has a much more modern type of 1st Ed feel (and IMO doesn't have an indie feel), while SD has a kind of gritty OSR feel. Both fantastic games!