Imo u have to separate it eras since player skill was different plus the scene was smaller back then I don't think it's fair to compare the 2. But if we are comparing both then Mango at pound 3 cuz only WC believed in him and we already knew Cody was in contention to be the best in the world while mango was the underdog
Mang0’s one at Pound 3 at its time was insane cuz he bested every top player at that time. It even seems that the TOs gave Mang0 the hardest possible bracket lol. Anyways , it was extremely wack because of the rule set on counter picking.
I just have trouble rating anything melee related older than a certain date, due to a lack of accurate brackets available on Liquipedia or live twitch stream or footage available on youtube. I went to a couple locals around 2005, with no clue who the top players were at the time, just knew who the best players were in my local scene (TH-cam existed, but high level sets did not get uploaded at that time, only some combo videos got uploaded) but I really start watching high level Melee and paying attention to high level players probably around 2010 to 2011. That's around the year when twitch streams and youtube uploads of melee tournaments start getting consistently uploaded, in high quality, and brackets start getting recorded reliably. Pound 3 being 2008 definitely falls before that time. Like...I had no idea Mango went Link and Donkey Kong against Silent Wolf before it got mentioned in this video--Liquipedia doesn't even list which characters they used. And the best footage I've found from Pound 3 is this shaky hand cam: th-cam.com/video/MKC92LeWfPw/w-d-xo.html At least, I assume that's Pound 3. It doesn't actually mention the tournament in the video title, or in the description LOL. Early melee was kind of the dark ages. Information was just hard to find. Maybe Mang0's losers run was spectacular at Pound 3, but to be blunt I never saw it, and don't really have a way to go back and watch it. By contrast, I definitely did see Cody's losers run at Big House 11. I was watching the live stream. That's automatically going to make me care about Cody's losers run more.
I don't think Cody's run is underrated. People definitely respect it, and I tend to see just as many people believe that Cody's run should be the greatest over Mango's Pound 3 run. If anything, every time I see Cody's run being discussed, someone always inevitably brings up the talking point of "if Mango did this run it'd be considered the greatest of all time." Bro, Mango didn't do this run and people still consider it the greatest ever. They're already arguing with strawmen before the debate has even begun.
There is no "objective way" to see this : POUND 3 was on different era and Mang0 clutch out all his sets against the best of the best of that time , ending it on him beating M2K at grands. If you look at it its SUPER impressive because "Mang0" at that time was only known as "the guy who got 3rd at EVO abut will not do jackshit after". While Cody on The Big House 11 was already Top 2 of the world and previously he was Top 4 - Top 2 , just behind Zain. We also have to remember that on that POUND 3 era , the counter picks were extremely wack and Mang0 did not just win with Solo Puff , he also pulled some secondaries cuz "Green Greens" or whatever is called , was a huge counter pick against Puff. Its just two insane losers runs on two different eras.
Hbox's run at LTC7 is the one that nobody talks about. Lost to Albert in Winners round of 32 with danger of falling at 17th place. He then beat Morsecode762, n0ne, Fiction, S2J, Albert in the runback, Mang0, SFAT, and Zain twice, both game 5's, in the runback.
I don't think EVO 2013 and Genesis 3 are in the running for the greatest losers run of all time. Instead I'd nominate Mango's Press Start and Summit 11 runs since they either have more sets or more impressive wins. I still think The Big House 11 is the greatest run of all time, just because Melee has become so much harder, every set was close and every single one of his opponents were amazing players, and yet he pulled it off.
Yeah these are great points! I just know with how iconic g3 and evo 2013 was, they’re always talked about. Evo 2013 especially as mango beat 3 gods, ice, and a cracked wobbles to win it all. G3 just had that legacy people waited for, for 5 years
Another run worth mentioning: Hungrybox at Low Tier City 7 (which isn't classified as a major but still had a really stacked bracket). Hungrybox lost to Albert in a massive upset in round of 64, and then won 11 sets, including a 10-game grand finals match against Zain, to win the whole thing.
I think part of what was important about this run for Cody was that every single piece of it was completely necessary for Cody to have a chance at getting #1 in the world. Before this tournament it was nearly a lock that Zain would end up #1 for the year especially given there were no more big tournaments after it, and if Cody wanted any chance to claim that title for the first time the *only* scenario that would allow it to happen or even have a chance of happening would be if Zain lost earlier than expected, if Cody specifically beat him in bracket, and if Cody himself had a super impressive run beating a bunch of the top ten in the world and winning the tournament. If ANY of that doesn’t happen there’s no way Cody gets the chance to do The Match for #1 in the world, and yet somehow the stars aligned for him and he manages to put together the most difficult loser’s run ever in a situation where he needed nothing less than that to be able to get that shot at best in the world status. Pound 3 and Evo 2013 are more significant in terms of how they shaped the history of Melee going forward and how they impacted the community, but I don’t think there’s any way to deny that no run was more difficult and significant to the player having it than Cody’s Big House 11 run. Take any of those losers runs away from Mango and he’s still the GOAT, the fact he has so many is just him reiterating and reinforcing that point throughout the years. None of those tournaments were as needed as this one was for Cody. Arguably HBox’s Evo 2016 run was as needed as this run was and was certainly more dramatic but it wasn’t nearly as long and grueling overall. I think the main thing keeping this run from being as widely agreed as the greatest loser’s run is 3 main things: 1. Cody isn’t as popular as Mango or the other players with similar crazy runs, nor is he entrenched in the lore of the Melee community as most of them are. 2: The Zain set happened too early, so that once Zain was out it no longer seemed as impressive that Cody was beating people since he was expected to beat all the people in front of him, many of whom like Mango or Plup the majority of fans would have been rooting for instead. He didn’t have any final boss that the run built up to like M2K at Pound 3 or Armada at UGC, Evo 2016 and Genesis 3 or Zain at Big House 9 and Summit 11. No offense to Plup, but Cody kinda had his number all year. 3. Grand Finals ended kinda anticlimactically. Like yeah there was a G5 reset but there wasn’t anything as exciting as Evo 2016 or Mango’s rest in G4 of Genesis 1. Nor did it go down to a final game 10 like BH9, Summit 11, Evo 2016 or LTC7. But I guess a lot of Mango’s runs also ended kinda anticlimactically for the final set, like Pound 3, Genesis 1 and Evo 2013 all ended with Mango just kind of taking over near the end and not really being challenged anymore for the last few games. And Genesis 4, as great as the run was, ended with him getting stomped by Armada in Grands. Anyway my point is just that there are many reasons why people will not consider Cody’s run as iconic or memorable to the story of Melee but in terms of how impressive and important it was within the context of 2023, I think it’s the hardest losers run anyone has ever finished and got the win from.
Those are all stupid reasons I'm sorry. Cody can't control the tournament's path, and he won't stop playing his hardest in grands, where people forget that set 1 went to game 5. And to say Mang0 gets it because he's more popular is Mang0 bias at best, or just plain denial at worst. Plus Mang0 should have never been in losers in the first place.
The game is so optimized compared to even just a few years ago, Cody's run is for sure the best loser's run of all time! Terrific content as always Jerami!
I think not having summit 11 in the top 4 losers runs is bizarre. Mango lost round 1 Everyone was convinced that Fox-Marth was solved, both the best players of the character stopped believing and picked up a secondary, Cody said himself Mang0 showed him that he was being dramatic, and it led him to sticking it out. Leffen called FD a literal auto-loss saying that a reverse 3-0 in the matchup against Zain was basically impossible He beat literally everyone who feasibly could have won the tournament except Leffen and Amsa Grand finals between the undisputed best players for 2 years in a row First tournament out of quarantine Biggest prize pool in melee history Insane comebacks in not just set 1 but also the final game. Winning back to back games on the stage that everyone said was unwinnable Not even mentioning Zain continuing to go on as top 2 in the world after that point to now. I think those things combined 100% make it at least top 3, overall still love the video just wanted to voice that opinion
I think you’re absolutely right. I put g3 in the top 4 since it had such a legacy on the smash community especially at the time and was even breaking records with entrants, views, mango armada grands etc. but after talking with a lot of people in the comments, summit 11 def should have taken its spot since mango won summit 11 over g3, and it was such a good pivot for melee since it was during Covid when there really was no melee etc Tysm for your comment and glad you loved the vid ❤️
i had to leave out a lot of runs, and probs could have replaced this as a HM instead of cody at genesis 9. however, I was using it as a way of showing cody is the new age losers run player. didnt want to have a ton of HM's taking up too much time
@@JeramiJoseph to be completely honest I think pound 3, summit 11, and press start are all more impressive than bh11 (i get it though it's still an insane run and deserves to be in the conversation), but I'm just happy someone with a platform even mentioned Press Start because people seem to have forgotten about it in these conversations and it always bothered me
Pound 3 is the best all time but Cody’s run is second in the same tier. Eras aside Mango was not a top seat going into this whereas Cody’s was. Also Mango’s quality of wins was slightly better. Cody’s still super impressive and deserves to be up there in the argument.
Hi Jerami, cool video. You said "Mango and Silentwolf may have been trying their best, but not going their main characters puts it into question." Imo, when a player intentionally does not pick the character they think will maximize their chances of winning on the character select screen when playing their set, we cannot characterize them as trying their best that set.
If you transported 2007 m2k to now I don't think he'd be top 100 automatically but I think he would catch up really fast. That was when his Melee obsession peaked (pre-Brawl) so he'd grind super hard with Slippi, he'd have access to all the modern tech and good controllers, and he also wouldn't have to deal with wobbling or Armada, 2 of his greatest demons. I genuinely think he would be a top 10 contender again alarmingly quickly
14:52 Cody beat 5 top 10 players too not 6 (Hungrybox, Amsa, Zain, Mango and Plup) And so did Mango at Pound 3 (Azen, ChuDat, Cort, PC Chris, Mew2King) Just a little correction
I think summit 11 is easily the best losers run because mango wasn’t the favourite to win, had to fight the person who put him in losers again, beat every player better than him, beat the BEST player at one his strongest forms and at a disadvantage (2 fd games), pressure of money, and being back on lan for the first time. There will never be another losers run as storied, historic, and impressive as that one. You had every amazing player playing at a very high level, in mango’s way, and also mango wasn’t considered better than them at the time. He just clutched it out
@@JeramiJoseph You're welcome. I totally get that. I had a period where I did an obsessive amount of research and realized how far behind we are here in the West. This video was fun for sure. Thanks for making it.
of course, and now after posting it should have gone in over g3, the story line and the wins were better imo. but yeah with mango getting the win could def go over summit 11.
Not in contention for the best because he lost GF reset but Leffen's losers run at Smash n Splash 3 was a barn burner. Lost to Zain in winners round 1 (Before Zain was a top seed at events let alone top 1/2) And then tore through Nakamaman, Professor Pro, Ice, None, Westballz, Axe, Mango, Shroomed, Armada, And won set 1 in Grands vs HBox before losing the tourney too him in set 2. Pretty much every player he fought from Ice forward was top 15 at the time
I’ll say this, Pound 3 had a better storyline, however Cody has the most impressive losers run on every single level.Unlike Mango who lost on purpose to try to go home, Cody lost to Someone very skilled and made no excuse for his loss. Comparing the skill level from back in the day and now is night and day. Unlike Jigglypuff who wasn’t that common back then, everyone knows the fox matchup and Cody’s playstyle since he’s played them all for years.He then proceeds to go on a long run in the most technically advanced and difficult meta in the game. He beat, the Greatest Sheik, Marth, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Falco, arguably the greatest player ever and reversed a top 10 all time player. He solidified his spot as a top 7 all time melee player and became the most skilled solo fox main ever to become #1 in the world. There has not been an incredibly consistent solo main since armada and Hbox in a decade. If Cody’s #1 again this year he will be ranked over a lot of peoples favorite players very soon.
in terms of player pool quality, i'd say G3 mango run was the hardest. despite that the average player is better now compared to the God era (mainly due to modded controllers), i don't think any run not in the God era can be harder than the best in the God era. getting through the early parts of tournaments is harder than before, but the best players still always make it to top 8. G3 had armada, hbox, axe, ppmd, sfat, ice, m2k, pewpewu, colbol, plup, wizzy, s2j, duck, shroomed, westballz, macD, fiction, silentspectre, gahtzu, swedish, none, kjh, prince abu, wobbles. TBH11 definitely is also deep, but i dont think the top 16 is as insane as G3, which basically had all the top players besides leffen in it.
I think Cody's run is better because he beat more good players and because TBH11 is one of if not the most stacked tournaments in Melee history. Like I don't think overall skill compared to now should be a factor, but I absolutely do think relative skill compared to the other top contenders should be. After 2007 ended is when there was basically a drop off of all existing top players aside from Mew2King, and then Mango proved he belonged in the Top 2 with Mew2King for 2008. The relative skill is just that Mango and Mew2King were so much better than everyone else and basically no one else could beat them. And everyone else either quit like Ken and KoreanDJ, or other players got better than the existing top players like ChuDat. While yes, Cody and Zain (and Jmook to a lesser extent) are better than the rest of the field, as in they are basically the only ones currently winning events. It's not that big of a gap between them and other Top 10 players. Aside from Leffen, only Cody, Zain, and Jmook won majors in 2023. But as was have seen with Cody and ESPECIALLY Jmook, they can still get upset by multiple people and potentially end up in a final placement outside of Top 8, with Cody getting 13th place at Tipped Off 14, and Jmook getting 33RD at GOML, with one of his losses being the EXACT same person who sent Cody to Losers at TBH11. It shows that while they are better, it's not by such a large margin, and on an off-day especially, they can get upset by Top 50 players. Rarely Zain though cause he is a freak of nature who rarely gets upset by anyone below Top 10. Though it can still happen as he infamously got upset by Wally at Smash Con 2022, who was ranked 60 in 2022, and unranked before end of year 2022
i agree it should be in the top 4 i take back putting g3 in over it, but looking at the wins and who was beat. it cant be in the top 2. its just so hyped up cause it was a game 10 last stock for 40k
After some research I have to disagree. He beat what seems to be the top 4 of the time, including a zain that was easily number 1 undisputed until that point. It was hard to find some stats so Ill go over it Before the lockout, Zain and Hbox were clear top dogs, with hbox taking summit 9 the last in person major. During the online era, zain establishes himself at the top winning almost everything. Mango is considered second in this era. The biggest thing that might seem like he beat nobody was that plup and hbox did not have good results during the online era, but as soon as its back to lan they immediately become top contenders again, highlighted by their placements in summit and their results in the after tournaments. Also Cody would win the very next major and his first ever major, also highlighting he was a top contender at the time. I can't find any rankings for this time period, but with these clues it has to be safe to say mang0 went through a gauntlet of top players. And beating zain at this time really is the icing on the cake. Tbh though, I don't think this alone would make it best losers run of all time. The storylines are what does. First in person tournament in over a year and a half, first mang0 summit win, a win in grand finals from losers side over a zain that looked completely unstoppable not just in this tournament, but in general. zain was the king of online and was poised to prove he can do it on lan. And of course like you said. the biggest melee prize pool of all time. I'd say smash summit 11 should be top 2 with cody's run at BH11, but from there I can't say. Cody's run is longer and more impressive, but mang0s has the best storylines in any tournament and honestly, was probably just as hard. At this point, I think its cody's run with a more data driven approach and mang0s run with a more memorial/feelings driven approach. @@JeramiJoseph
I'm surprised this video didn't mention Plup at The Big House 8. He lost to Bananas in R1 of top 64 and made it all the way to grand finals before losing to Hbox. It's easily one of the best 2nd place losers runs ever, above some of the ones listed imo. Solid video in any case
First of all, respect to Cody for pulling off the longest losers run(11 sets). Its not like that he dont receive credits for it, many call it the goat run. Now i explain why it isnt for me. Look, thing about Codys run is that for me, its less impressive than Mango in Pound 3. Cody beat players you wouldnt be concerned him losing to, especially before top 8. In top 8 he beat hbox and amsa, which he was favored. Then he beat Zain, the first match you would be concerned him losing, because its like a 50/50 with these two players. But he beat Zain, which is impressive. Then he beat Mango, you could argue if it was impressive or not, the argues are that mango kinda didnt care this year, but also mango farmed cody 2022, so it was a bit unpredicted. And then he beat plup.. which was kinda clear to me, even tho plup played absolutely great. Now for the Pound 3 run. Literally every opponent Mango runned into was favored winning against Mango because he was a nobody back then( he only was known for beating m2k in a bo1, which you cant take seriously). At that time, People thought theres no way he would beat azen, but he did it. theres no way he would beat Pc Chris. the people were in shock after the match. They said there ISNT a chance mango would beat Chudat. but goddamnit he beat him. and then the unbelievable happened. Mew2king was like 3 steps above all other players, clearly one of the most dominating era(even tho it was short). He was just unbeatable. Yet, This 16 year old kid mango managed to beat hin TWICE, also in the probably worst matchup in the higher tierlist. Fox destroys Puff in corneria and green greens but he still won. Thats why people say mangos run is the goat run, me included. I really dont want to downplay codys run, hes done incredible things. But you can argue that a run like cody was gonna happen sooner or later, which a player would be send early to losers and then win against every other because people would asume hes capable of. Zain could have done it. Even Jmook maybe could have done it. But Pound 3, there was just no world this would happen, its like a perfect anime saga you would imaging in your head. I believe that mangos pound 3 (and armadas genesis 1) run were the greatest perfomance people were „shocked“ by in terms of „they couldnt believe their eyes“.
Axe also beat Zain. And aMSa, the same player Mango lost to in that tournament. PewPewU and Ginger are not easy either. Also not considering the fact that Axe beat Plup's Sheik at Genesis 6 for the first AND ONLY time in Melee's history, as that's a very very hard matchup (not only Sheik-Pika, but Plup's Sheik)
@cesarsilva3536 By that logic Axe beating Zain in that match up (and when Zain was just starting to break out) really wasn't that impressive, comparatively. Mang0 beat 3 Gods that day, and Plup. Mang0 also reset the bracket. Axe did not.
@@il100374 That was only the 3rd set they've played at that point (goml 2018, summit 7) and Zain's won 5 out of the last 6 sets they've played. Not discrediting Mango, just saying that Axe didn't just beat Plup as you mentioned. That is discrediting Axe, on the other hand
Who has the GOAT losers run?
Cody
Mangos was when everybody sucked in comparison
Imo u have to separate it eras since player skill was different plus the scene was smaller back then I don't think it's fair to compare the 2. But if we are comparing both then Mango at pound 3 cuz only WC believed in him and we already knew Cody was in contention to be the best in the world while mango was the underdog
Mang0’s one at Pound 3 at its time was insane cuz he bested every top player at that time. It even seems that the TOs gave Mang0 the hardest possible bracket lol.
Anyways , it was extremely wack because of the rule set on counter picking.
I just have trouble rating anything melee related older than a certain date, due to a lack of accurate brackets available on Liquipedia or live twitch stream or footage available on youtube.
I went to a couple locals around 2005, with no clue who the top players were at the time, just knew who the best players were in my local scene (TH-cam existed, but high level sets did not get uploaded at that time, only some combo videos got uploaded) but I really start watching high level Melee and paying attention to high level players probably around 2010 to 2011. That's around the year when twitch streams and youtube uploads of melee tournaments start getting consistently uploaded, in high quality, and brackets start getting recorded reliably.
Pound 3 being 2008 definitely falls before that time. Like...I had no idea Mango went Link and Donkey Kong against Silent Wolf before it got mentioned in this video--Liquipedia doesn't even list which characters they used. And the best footage I've found from Pound 3 is this shaky hand cam:
th-cam.com/video/MKC92LeWfPw/w-d-xo.html
At least, I assume that's Pound 3. It doesn't actually mention the tournament in the video title, or in the description LOL.
Early melee was kind of the dark ages. Information was just hard to find.
Maybe Mang0's losers run was spectacular at Pound 3, but to be blunt I never saw it, and don't really have a way to go back and watch it.
By contrast, I definitely did see Cody's losers run at Big House 11. I was watching the live stream. That's automatically going to make me care about Cody's losers run more.
mang0 quit playin
jk good vid
I don't think Cody's run is underrated. People definitely respect it, and I tend to see just as many people believe that Cody's run should be the greatest over Mango's Pound 3 run. If anything, every time I see Cody's run being discussed, someone always inevitably brings up the talking point of "if Mango did this run it'd be considered the greatest of all time." Bro, Mango didn't do this run and people still consider it the greatest ever. They're already arguing with strawmen before the debate has even begun.
You're really underselling the existence of mang0nation lmao is this a psyop sent from the nation? 😂
There is no "objective way" to see this :
POUND 3 was on different era and Mang0 clutch out all his sets against the best of the best of that time , ending it on him beating M2K at grands. If you look at it its SUPER impressive because "Mang0" at that time was only known as "the guy who got 3rd at EVO abut will not do jackshit after". While Cody on The Big House 11 was already Top 2 of the world and previously he was Top 4 - Top 2 , just behind Zain. We also have to remember that on that POUND 3 era , the counter picks were extremely wack and Mang0 did not just win with Solo Puff , he also pulled some secondaries cuz "Green Greens" or whatever is called , was a huge counter pick against Puff.
Its just two insane losers runs on two different eras.
Hbox's run at LTC7 is the one that nobody talks about. Lost to Albert in Winners round of 32 with danger of falling at 17th place. He then beat Morsecode762, n0ne, Fiction, S2J, Albert in the runback, Mang0, SFAT, and Zain twice, both game 5's, in the runback.
I honestly didn’t remember this one! Thanks for pointing it out, I’m gonna go back and check it out!
I've been waiting for a stylish cover of Cody's run but this was interesting enough to warrant a little love. Grab yourself some beer homie
Wtf was not expecting that! Had to do a double take 😂 Thank you so much dawg! Super appreciate it ❤️
I don't think EVO 2013 and Genesis 3 are in the running for the greatest losers run of all time. Instead I'd nominate Mango's Press Start and Summit 11 runs since they either have more sets or more impressive wins.
I still think The Big House 11 is the greatest run of all time, just because Melee has become so much harder, every set was close and every single one of his opponents were amazing players, and yet he pulled it off.
Yeah these are great points! I just know with how iconic g3 and evo 2013 was, they’re always talked about. Evo 2013 especially as mango beat 3 gods, ice, and a cracked wobbles to win it all. G3 just had that legacy people waited for, for 5 years
Another run worth mentioning:
Hungrybox at Low Tier City 7 (which isn't classified as a major but still had a really stacked bracket). Hungrybox lost to Albert in a massive upset in round of 64, and then won 11 sets, including a 10-game grand finals match against Zain, to win the whole thing.
Yeah I totally forgot about this run! I wish I would have remembered it!
I think part of what was important about this run for Cody was that every single piece of it was completely necessary for Cody to have a chance at getting #1 in the world. Before this tournament it was nearly a lock that Zain would end up #1 for the year especially given there were no more big tournaments after it, and if Cody wanted any chance to claim that title for the first time the *only* scenario that would allow it to happen or even have a chance of happening would be if Zain lost earlier than expected, if Cody specifically beat him in bracket, and if Cody himself had a super impressive run beating a bunch of the top ten in the world and winning the tournament. If ANY of that doesn’t happen there’s no way Cody gets the chance to do The Match for #1 in the world, and yet somehow the stars aligned for him and he manages to put together the most difficult loser’s run ever in a situation where he needed nothing less than that to be able to get that shot at best in the world status.
Pound 3 and Evo 2013 are more significant in terms of how they shaped the history of Melee going forward and how they impacted the community, but I don’t think there’s any way to deny that no run was more difficult and significant to the player having it than Cody’s Big House 11 run. Take any of those losers runs away from Mango and he’s still the GOAT, the fact he has so many is just him reiterating and reinforcing that point throughout the years. None of those tournaments were as needed as this one was for Cody. Arguably HBox’s Evo 2016 run was as needed as this run was and was certainly more dramatic but it wasn’t nearly as long and grueling overall.
I think the main thing keeping this run from being as widely agreed as the greatest loser’s run is 3 main things:
1. Cody isn’t as popular as Mango or the other players with similar crazy runs, nor is he entrenched in the lore of the Melee community as most of them are.
2: The Zain set happened too early, so that once Zain was out it no longer seemed as impressive that Cody was beating people since he was expected to beat all the people in front of him, many of whom like Mango or Plup the majority of fans would have been rooting for instead. He didn’t have any final boss that the run built up to like M2K at Pound 3 or Armada at UGC, Evo 2016 and Genesis 3 or Zain at Big House 9 and Summit 11. No offense to Plup, but Cody kinda had his number all year.
3. Grand Finals ended kinda anticlimactically. Like yeah there was a G5 reset but there wasn’t anything as exciting as Evo 2016 or Mango’s rest in G4 of Genesis 1. Nor did it go down to a final game 10 like BH9, Summit 11, Evo 2016 or LTC7. But I guess a lot of Mango’s runs also ended kinda anticlimactically for the final set, like Pound 3, Genesis 1 and Evo 2013 all ended with Mango just kind of taking over near the end and not really being challenged anymore for the last few games. And Genesis 4, as great as the run was, ended with him getting stomped by Armada in Grands.
Anyway my point is just that there are many reasons why people will not consider Cody’s run as iconic or memorable to the story of Melee but in terms of how impressive and important it was within the context of 2023, I think it’s the hardest losers run anyone has ever finished and got the win from.
Very well said!
Those are all stupid reasons I'm sorry. Cody can't control the tournament's path, and he won't stop playing his hardest in grands, where people forget that set 1 went to game 5. And to say Mang0 gets it because he's more popular is Mang0 bias at best, or just plain denial at worst. Plus Mang0 should have never been in losers in the first place.
The game is so optimized compared to even just a few years ago, Cody's run is for sure the best loser's run of all time! Terrific content as always Jerami!
appreciate it homie :D couldn't agree more!
M2K would’ve had the greatest losers run if he won UGC.
honestly, probably lol
I think not having summit 11 in the top 4 losers runs is bizarre.
Mango lost round 1
Everyone was convinced that Fox-Marth was solved, both the best players of the character stopped believing and picked up a secondary, Cody said himself Mang0 showed him that he was being dramatic, and it led him to sticking it out. Leffen called FD a literal auto-loss saying that a reverse 3-0 in the matchup against Zain was basically impossible
He beat literally everyone who feasibly could have won the tournament except Leffen and Amsa
Grand finals between the undisputed best players for 2 years in a row
First tournament out of quarantine
Biggest prize pool in melee history
Insane comebacks in not just set 1 but also the final game. Winning back to back games on the stage that everyone said was unwinnable
Not even mentioning Zain continuing to go on as top 2 in the world after that point to now.
I think those things combined 100% make it at least top 3, overall still love the video just wanted to voice that opinion
I think you’re absolutely right. I put g3 in the top 4 since it had such a legacy on the smash community especially at the time and was even breaking records with entrants, views, mango armada grands etc. but after talking with a lot of people in the comments, summit 11 def should have taken its spot since mango won summit 11 over g3, and it was such a good pivot for melee since it was during Covid when there really was no melee etc
Tysm for your comment and glad you loved the vid ❤️
Nah, it's Summit 11 for sure
Great run! But I have it tied at 3rd instead of g3
Great vod, but i feel like it wouldve made more sense to replace genesis 3 with Summit 11
after posting, a lot of people have said this and I actually agree 100%. especially since mango didn't win g3. appreciate the watch :D
Royal flush 2016 my favorite
das a good one
hbox evo 2016 not mentioned at all is criminal
i had to leave out a lot of runs, and probs could have replaced this as a HM instead of cody at genesis 9. however, I was using it as a way of showing cody is the new age losers run player. didnt want to have a ton of HM's taking up too much time
Finally, the Press Start erasure has ended
Yeah, Cody had more impressive wins on his way, and even pound 3 mango had more impressive wins. I had pound 3 at the goat run before BH11
@@JeramiJoseph to be completely honest I think pound 3, summit 11, and press start are all more impressive than bh11 (i get it though it's still an insane run and deserves to be in the conversation), but I'm just happy someone with a platform even mentioned Press Start because people seem to have forgotten about it in these conversations and it always bothered me
Druggedfox at tipped off deserves a nod
ooo gotta go check that out
Pound 3 is the best all time but Cody’s run is second in the same tier. Eras aside Mango was not a top seat going into this whereas Cody’s was. Also Mango’s quality of wins was slightly better. Cody’s still super impressive and deserves to be up there in the argument.
Hi Jerami, cool video.
You said "Mango and Silentwolf may have been trying their best, but not going their main characters puts it into question."
Imo, when a player intentionally does not pick the character they think will maximize their chances of winning on the character select screen when playing their set, we cannot characterize them as trying their best that set.
Thanks Watt! Yeah I completely agree. But, I didn’t wanna say for 100% certainty since I wasn’t there so I kinda put a blanket statement on there.
All of these losers run were bangers.
Absolutely !!
Now that that is over let us discuss the real questions.
In 2006-8 M2K still top 100?
Yoooo that’s a great question 😂
If you transported 2007 m2k to now I don't think he'd be top 100 automatically but I think he would catch up really fast. That was when his Melee obsession peaked (pre-Brawl) so he'd grind super hard with Slippi, he'd have access to all the modern tech and good controllers, and he also wouldn't have to deal with wobbling or Armada, 2 of his greatest demons. I genuinely think he would be a top 10 contender again alarmingly quickly
Love the "set on a collision course" reference ❤
Of course! I’m a doc kid so I had to lol
14:52
Cody beat 5 top 10 players too not 6
(Hungrybox, Amsa, Zain, Mango and Plup)
And so did Mango at Pound 3
(Azen, ChuDat, Cort, PC Chris, Mew2King)
Just a little correction
I think summit 11 is easily the best losers run because mango wasn’t the favourite to win, had to fight the person who put him in losers again, beat every player better than him, beat the BEST player at one his strongest forms and at a disadvantage (2 fd games), pressure of money, and being back on lan for the first time.
There will never be another losers run as storied, historic, and impressive as that one. You had every amazing player playing at a very high level, in mango’s way, and also mango wasn’t considered better than them at the time. He just clutched it out
What's the name of the outro music?
My cousin sent me the song, and after trying to ask what it was he said he didn’t know. Sorry 😭
There wasn't even esports (in the US*).
I know it's a small detail but inthe east esports has been a thing for much longer.
right on, I didn't even really know that! yeah coming from the US this is basically all I really knew. Thanks for pointing that out!
@@JeramiJoseph
You're welcome. I totally get that. I had a period where I did an obsessive amount of research and realized how far behind we are here in the West.
This video was fun for sure. Thanks for making it.
Yea, but have you seen summit 11?
of course, and now after posting it should have gone in over g3, the story line and the wins were better imo. but yeah with mango getting the win could def go over summit 11.
It's Cody's run at TBH11
@@typhlosion7872 I thought the same!
Not in contention for the best because he lost GF reset but Leffen's losers run at Smash n Splash 3 was a barn burner.
Lost to Zain in winners round 1 (Before Zain was a top seed at events let alone top 1/2) And then tore through Nakamaman, Professor Pro, Ice, None, Westballz, Axe, Mango, Shroomed, Armada, And won set 1 in Grands vs HBox before losing the tourney too him in set 2. Pretty much every player he fought from Ice forward was top 15 at the time
I’ll say this, Pound 3 had a better storyline, however Cody has the most impressive losers run on every single level.Unlike Mango who lost on purpose to try to go home, Cody lost to Someone very skilled and made no excuse for his loss. Comparing the skill level from back in the day and now is night and day. Unlike Jigglypuff who wasn’t that common back then, everyone knows the fox matchup and Cody’s playstyle since he’s played them all for years.He then proceeds to go on a long run in the most technically advanced and difficult meta in the game. He beat, the Greatest Sheik, Marth, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Falco, arguably the greatest player ever and reversed a top 10 all time player. He solidified his spot as a top 7 all time melee player and became the most skilled solo fox main ever to become #1 in the world. There has not been an incredibly consistent solo main since armada and Hbox in a decade. If Cody’s #1 again this year he will be ranked over a lot of peoples favorite players very soon.
yeah why I gave cody #1. the skill level these days is nuts, and with him beating 6/10 top 10 players in the world on his run too is insane
Why are your eyes so mesmerizing
Why you so handsome?
bro forgot about PC at oc3
in terms of player pool quality, i'd say G3 mango run was the hardest. despite that the average player is better now compared to the God era (mainly due to modded controllers), i don't think any run not in the God era can be harder than the best in the God era. getting through the early parts of tournaments is harder than before, but the best players still always make it to top 8.
G3 had armada, hbox, axe, ppmd, sfat, ice, m2k, pewpewu, colbol, plup, wizzy, s2j, duck, shroomed, westballz, macD, fiction, silentspectre, gahtzu, swedish, none, kjh, prince abu, wobbles.
TBH11 definitely is also deep, but i dont think the top 16 is as insane as G3, which basically had all the top players besides leffen in it.
Awesome video!
Thank you so much! Appreciate you watching 😄
I think Cody's run is better because he beat more good players and because TBH11 is one of if not the most stacked tournaments in Melee history. Like I don't think overall skill compared to now should be a factor, but I absolutely do think relative skill compared to the other top contenders should be. After 2007 ended is when there was basically a drop off of all existing top players aside from Mew2King, and then Mango proved he belonged in the Top 2 with Mew2King for 2008. The relative skill is just that Mango and Mew2King were so much better than everyone else and basically no one else could beat them. And everyone else either quit like Ken and KoreanDJ, or other players got better than the existing top players like ChuDat.
While yes, Cody and Zain (and Jmook to a lesser extent) are better than the rest of the field, as in they are basically the only ones currently winning events. It's not that big of a gap between them and other Top 10 players. Aside from Leffen, only Cody, Zain, and Jmook won majors in 2023. But as was have seen with Cody and ESPECIALLY Jmook, they can still get upset by multiple people and potentially end up in a final placement outside of Top 8, with Cody getting 13th place at Tipped Off 14, and Jmook getting 33RD at GOML, with one of his losses being the EXACT same person who sent Cody to Losers at TBH11. It shows that while they are better, it's not by such a large margin, and on an off-day especially, they can get upset by Top 50 players.
Rarely Zain though cause he is a freak of nature who rarely gets upset by anyone below Top 10. Though it can still happen as he infamously got upset by Wally at Smash Con 2022, who was ranked 60 in 2022, and unranked before end of year 2022
smash summit 11 should just be the clear winner, idk how its not even considered in the top 4
i agree it should be in the top 4 i take back putting g3 in over it, but looking at the wins and who was beat. it cant be in the top 2. its just so hyped up cause it was a game 10 last stock for 40k
After some research I have to disagree. He beat what seems to be the top 4 of the time, including a zain that was easily number 1 undisputed until that point. It was hard to find some stats so Ill go over it
Before the lockout, Zain and Hbox were clear top dogs, with hbox taking summit 9 the last in person major. During the online era, zain establishes himself at the top winning almost everything. Mango is considered second in this era. The biggest thing that might seem like he beat nobody was that plup and hbox did not have good results during the online era, but as soon as its back to lan they immediately become top contenders again, highlighted by their placements in summit and their results in the after tournaments. Also Cody would win the very next major and his first ever major, also highlighting he was a top contender at the time.
I can't find any rankings for this time period, but with these clues it has to be safe to say mang0 went through a gauntlet of top players. And beating zain at this time really is the icing on the cake.
Tbh though, I don't think this alone would make it best losers run of all time. The storylines are what does. First in person tournament in over a year and a half, first mang0 summit win, a win in grand finals from losers side over a zain that looked completely unstoppable not just in this tournament, but in general. zain was the king of online and was poised to prove he can do it on lan. And of course like you said. the biggest melee prize pool of all time.
I'd say smash summit 11 should be top 2 with cody's run at BH11, but from there I can't say. Cody's run is longer and more impressive, but mang0s has the best storylines in any tournament and honestly, was probably just as hard. At this point, I think its cody's run with a more data driven approach and mang0s run with a more memorial/feelings driven approach. @@JeramiJoseph
banger thumbnail
Thanks homie!
i might disagree because mang0 was so young at pound 3 and i suppose he was seeded not that high (i don't know what he was seeded at).
Had M2K won that tournament man..
That would have been so insane lol
I'm surprised this video didn't mention Plup at The Big House 8. He lost to Bananas in R1 of top 64 and made it all the way to grand finals before losing to Hbox. It's easily one of the best 2nd place losers runs ever, above some of the ones listed imo. Solid video in any case
I don’t remember that run of his at all! Dang I’ll have to go back and watch that. Appreciate it dawg❤️
Mango losing round 1 because he was messing around makes the run better.
how? xD
@@JeramiJosephokay, maybe not “better,”but it is cooler.
Is it considered a losers run if they don't win the tournament? It's not that mang0 is more popular than ace it's because he actually won
First of all, respect to Cody for pulling off the longest losers run(11 sets). Its not like that he dont receive credits for it, many call it the goat run. Now i explain why it isnt for me.
Look, thing about Codys run is that for me, its less impressive than Mango in Pound 3. Cody beat players you wouldnt be concerned him losing to, especially before top 8.
In top 8 he beat hbox and amsa, which he was favored. Then he beat Zain, the first match you would be concerned him losing, because its like a 50/50 with these two players. But he beat Zain, which is impressive.
Then he beat Mango, you could argue if it was impressive or not, the argues are that mango kinda didnt care this year, but also mango farmed cody 2022, so it was a bit unpredicted. And then he beat plup.. which was kinda clear to me, even tho plup played absolutely great.
Now for the Pound 3 run. Literally every opponent Mango runned into was favored winning against Mango because he was a nobody back then( he only was known for beating m2k in a bo1, which you cant take seriously). At that time, People thought theres no way he would beat azen, but he did it.
theres no way he would beat Pc Chris. the people were in shock after the match.
They said there ISNT a chance mango would beat Chudat. but goddamnit he beat him.
and then the unbelievable happened. Mew2king was like 3 steps above all other players, clearly one of the most dominating era(even tho it was short). He was just unbeatable. Yet, This 16 year old kid mango managed to beat hin TWICE, also in the probably worst matchup in the higher tierlist. Fox destroys Puff in corneria and green greens but he still won.
Thats why people say mangos run is the goat run, me included. I really dont want to downplay codys run, hes done incredible things. But you can argue that a run like cody was gonna happen sooner or later, which a player would be send early to losers and then win against every other because people would asume hes capable of. Zain could have done it. Even Jmook maybe could have done it. But Pound 3, there was just no world this would happen, its like a perfect anime saga you would imaging in your head.
I believe that mangos pound 3 (and armadas genesis 1) run were the greatest perfomance people were „shocked“ by in terms of „they couldnt believe their eyes“.
I love these videos, but why are you so close to the camera xD
i just have my head in frame idk lol. im glad you love the vids :D
Goat
Goats
Mango because Cody’s annoying LMAOO
Great vid. As the kids would say, "based"
Appreciate it dawg 😍
Mang0's run is mentioned more because WHO he beat. He beat Plup, PPMD, Hbox, AND Armada to reset the bracket.
Axe beat Plup.
Lmfao
Axe also beat Zain. And aMSa, the same player Mango lost to in that tournament. PewPewU and Ginger are not easy either. Also not considering the fact that Axe beat Plup's Sheik at Genesis 6 for the first AND ONLY time in Melee's history, as that's a very very hard matchup (not only Sheik-Pika, but Plup's Sheik)
@cesarsilva3536 By that logic Axe beating Zain in that match up (and when Zain was just starting to break out) really wasn't that impressive, comparatively. Mang0 beat 3 Gods that day, and Plup. Mang0 also reset the bracket. Axe did not.
@@il100374 That was only the 3rd set they've played at that point (goml 2018, summit 7) and Zain's won 5 out of the last 6 sets they've played. Not discrediting Mango, just saying that Axe didn't just beat Plup as you mentioned. That is discrediting Axe, on the other hand
@@il100374 also, when G6 ocurred Zain was already ranked #7 and I believe was positive in h2h against Mango
L take
👌🏻
@@JeramiJosephIgnore him, it was a W take. Great video!
@@earthboundfan95 appreciate it dawg ❤️
bruh why u quit out on me i was the falco on slippi just now lol ggtho
Discord me and let’s play. Yeah my b. My work meeting ended 😅