I know it's good public relations for SEW, but I still can't help but admire the kindness of people who just send products to folks like you, Marius, with no thought of reciprocation. "Steve" seems like a very cool guy.
@@ArnaudMEURET It took something on Steve's behalf to consider giving away such an expensive piece of kit to a creator whose audience is unlikely to every buy one. I think you do "Steve" a disservice.
Benny It took a semester of brand marketing and communication at the Business School. There’s nothing wrong with that and this implementation is 1000% more honest than all the turpitude that the marketing has inflicted us for the last century.
it's a win-win-win situation if you include the subscribers watching great videos in the future and it's good info for everybody. I'd rather watch Marius use real products than SEW have some PR company make a lameass version of it with voice overs and hired "actors" looking like woodworkers.
@Marius Nice job, welcome to the VFD club :) I have a few suggestions: 1. You configured the motor to Delta that equates to 220V, but your drive is 380 and you obviously have 3ph power in the shop. Most drives are more efficient and definitely less noisy when running the motor at input voltage - not sure about SEW as I never used their drive, but it holds true about other 5 brands I have. If you reconfigure the motor back to Star and raise the drive voltage to 380 you should notice the difference. If this setting was suggested by SEW people, I'd be very eager to find out why. 2. You can typically set starting time more aggressive then the breaking time because drive can draw a lot of energy from the mains but it can only sink the breaking energy into itself. Breaking resistor can help but even with it there's still a difference. Your drive should not be breaking a sweat. It's driving half it's rated load, don't worry about it. As for mechanical side of things, without VFD start time was 0s so as long as your belt don't slip on startup you can speed it up. Of course, if you don't need it any faster that's fine as well. For slowdown limiting factor will be either belt slip or drive capacitor overload error. Essentially, if you dump too much energy into a drive it'll shut down and let the motor coast down to a stop. When that happens, you back off a little bit and that's as fast as it'll stop. 3. I mounted my drive as high as possible above the saw (in my case a small Emco BS-2, so the drive is on a mast above the saw body. Wood dust will not harm the drive, but blowing it out with compressor set to low pressure from time to time is not the worst idea. 4. Emergency stop switch can be added in series to a normal stop switch(unless SEW has a dedicated e-stop input). I saw people mounting it at knee height, possibly wit a bar over it so it can be actuated by simply leaning on the bar. Useful if you ever really need it. 5. To reverse the motor you can also switch any of its two phases or simpler configure the direction in software 6. You mentioned max motor speed was 2000RPM in which case you're over-driving the motor. It's not a big deal with a small motor, but voltage has to remain pegged at 220 or 380V even if you raise the driving frequency otherwise you'd burn the insulation in the motor. Since motor has higher impedance at higher speed, this means it's drawing less current then it would if the V/f ratio was maintained and you loose torque once you go over rated speed. This is also not an issue, but it's good to know if you ever run out of torque. 7. When soldering, heat up both metal parts , not just the wire. Actually, it's usually better to heat the contact more then the wire as insulation will melt sooner then the potentiometer. 8. I probably wouldn't drill through the frame in that spot as you want it as rigid as possible against the blade tension.
@@MariusHornberger Just remembered number 9. :) Shielded cables (their shields) are supposed to be terminated only on one end. Usually on the VFD side. Other end can be mechanically secured or even connected to the isolated enclosure but it shouldn't have alternative electrical connection to the ground.
@Marius Hornberger 1. & 6. The motor is a 1400rpm and should run at max 2000rpm. With 230V drive, you can only run 1400rpm at nominal power. As not all parameters were shown (and I didn't read the SEW manual), I'm not sure what/how it is configured, but it is perfectly possible to setup a drive to reach 2000rpm with nominal torque (the motor power will be "increased" to 2.14 kW). Motor parameters are 1400rpm at 220V and 50Hz with 6,3A delta. If a drive is configured with 2436rpm at 383V and 87Hz with 6,3A delta, the max speed can be limited to 2000rpm. For this a 400V drive is necessary! When running at 2 or 3 kHz switching frequency your drive needs to be at least 2.2kW. When using higher switching frequencies (6, 8, 12 or 18 kHz), the drive needs to be overrated to 3kW as the drive will heat more at higher frequencies (this can be found in the drive manuels). 10. Place an EMC filter before the drive if you wish your electronic household equipment (computers, microcontrollers, power supplies, ect.) to survive normally. VFD's create EMC signals on your power network. 11. A household 380V differential (300mA) is not suitable for a drive and might shut off when starting the motor. These differentials are of type A. For drives you need a type C. For one drive on the network, this should not be a problem 12. If running below 20Hz (and somewhere above 60Hz) the fan of the motor won't cool the motor correctly. Do not run below 20Hz (configure the minimum speed of the drive at 20Hz)
@@MariusHornberger Tja, auf TH-cam wird man es wohl besser wissen (wie immer **prust** ) als der Hersteller(!) des Frequenzumrichters UND des Motors. Also das musste dir erst mal auf der Zunge zergehen lassen ... Drehstrom-Asynchronmotoren leisten in Dreieckschaltung das größtmögliche Drehmoment. Man kann etwa von 0,5-1 * Mn (Nennmoment, stabiler Schnittpunkt der Drehmomentkennlinie mit der Lastkennlinie) also ca. 1/3 des Wertes bei Dreieckschaltung ausgehen. Der Frequenzumrichter hat ja gerade den Vorteil, dass er sich frei Parametrieren lässt und man unabhängig(er) von der Versorgung ist, bzw die Motorkennlinie optimal ausnutzen kann. Was zum sprachlos Staunen anregt ist hier übrigens, dass sich keiner hier mal das Handbuch anschaut und dafür lieber frei los fabuliert und hier ein Unsinn verbreitet wird, der nicht zum Aushalten ist. In Kapitel 6.5.2 Spannungs-Frequenz-Kennlinie" des Handbuchs zu MOVITRAC B(mc07b0030-5a3-4-00) steht: "Die U/f-Betriebsarten führen den Asynchronmotor an einer belastungsabhängigen Spannungs-Frequenz-Kennlinie. In den VFC-Betriebsarten wird ständig das Motormodell berechnet. Stellen Sie die Kennlinie bei der Inbetriebnahme mit Motor-Bemessungsspannung und Motor-Bemessungsfrequenz ein. Die Einstellung bestimmt die drehzahlabhängige Drehmoment- und Leistungscharakteristik des Asynchronmotors." Da kann man nur hoffen, dass der andere Kommentator dort oben auf KEINEN FALL Kontakt mit Kunden hat, etwa auf die Art, dass er solche Geräte installiert, worüber er noch nicht mal die Grundlagen beherrscht (kann natürlich auch an totaler Verwirrung durch die Nennspannungen hier in Europa liegen ... das bezweifle ich aber, hehe). Weiterhin: Netzfilter gibt es, siehe 4.21 Netzfilter NF. Sowie auch Ausgangsfilter und Filter der EMV-Klasse. Ob du so etwas brauchst ... mit deinem 128KW Motor für dein Kaltplatierwalzwerk (kleiner Scherz), weiß ich nicht. Das weiß übrigens auch niemand anders und schon gar niemand mit einer Ferndiagnose, hier. So etwas muss man MESSEN, dann zeigt sich ob die internen Schaltungen des FU ausreichend sind, oder ob zusätzliche Dämpfung benötigt wird. In Kapitel 6.11.2 geht es um Netzschütz und Netzsicherungen. Ausserdem wird ein Leitungsschutzschalter der Charakteristika B, bzw C empfohlen. Das solltest du UNBEDINGT zur Gerätesicherung (und passend zu den Nenndaten deiner Gerätekonfiguration ) vorschalten. Keine Ahnung was da oben schon wieder gefaselt wird (siehe 300mA). Es kann sich aber nur um etwas handeln für das es bei uns sowieso keine VDE Zulassung gibt. Ausserdem widersprechen sich die Aussagen komplett. Sanftanlauf und der Anzugs-/Nennstrom deiner Konfiguration liegen weit darunter. Ist mir übrigens auch zu hoch, weil ich nicht verstehe, wie man vergessen kann, was man einen Satz vorher geschrieben hat ... Viel Spaß mit dem Geschoss, Marius:) ... und ich hoffe nach 2 Jahren hast du eigenständig einen passenden Leistungsschutzschalter eingebaut, ja?:) P.S.: Punkt 6 .... **facepalm** Dieser Gleichstromschrauber denkt doch ernsthaft, dass die Drehzahl Spannungsabhängig ist. Das ist zum totlachen. Da sagen sich doch Generatorprinzip und Asynchchronlauf lachend gute Nacht ... die anscheinend keine Bekannte von ihm sind:) For the others: BTW the operators and installing handbook for the MOVITRAC B(mc07b0030-5a3-4-00) is freely available, even in English. So please RTFM, before you guys tell more fairytales. I can't stand more laughing. Please! (Strange that this collection of "peasant wisdom" has not been laughed at or criticized before ...) Anyway, please don't kill yourself or others with that kind of "expertise". Two years late? It is never to late!:)
Ever since DIY videos came into being, there have been DIY videos and DIY videos galore. Then we have our genius of geniuses named Marius Hornberger. Who could ever need better than this young man? Huh? Thank you Marius. You are truly a unique person, to the "nth" degree. And it gets better with each new video. May Jesus continue to bless yours gifts of talent from heaven.
I think the thing that makes Marius special is that he not only has the creativity to build the projects he does, but also the inventive genius to create the tools that will help him build those projects. There's a lot going on inside that head!
Another excellent contribution from the southern Germany precision workshop scene. I like Marius’ projects. On my Matthias Wandel inspired band saw I used a variable frequency supply for four years already. With good results. This set-up allowed me to avoid the belt and pully transmission. I mounted the lower wheel directly on the motor axle. Therefore, I never had problems with slipping of the belt on the pully as reported by Marius. The only drawback of the use of frequency variators lies in the fact that they must already be connected to the mains when you want to use them. This means that one often forgets to switch them off after use. Fred Casadei
Nice work! Just for your information, the 6 black wires for control buttons and knob are numbered (on the individual cable insulation), making things easy if you know or notice. At 19:39 you are almost pointing towards number 2.
@@MariusHornberger And for when you meet a cable that's not numbered or color coded, I'd suggest using a multimeter to check continuity before installing it, and labeling the wires. It's a bit more hassle than just testing in place, but it's usually easier and there's less risk of frying electronics.
@@dj-bn1fj Yeah, although you'd need quite a bit of colors for that. Colored heat shrink is also a form of labeling though, so I could say: That's exactly what I meant ;).
@@timderks5960 The only cable I've ever seen where the wires were completely unmarked was cabling for alarm systems. But even those are marked - but on the inside. Four wires per cable, two are tinned, two are bare, so you have to cut it into it to tell what is what.
Hi Marius - Great job implementing the VFD to the bandsaw. As a former drive designer, I have a few tips for you. Perhaps you thought of this already. With regard to the braking resistor, I would suggest putting a metalic grid over the resistor with a connection to your Earth ground (or do you call it PE in the fatherland? :) ). Anyway, this will do two things: 1. Keep any kind of flammable material from coming in contact with the resistor body (except sawdust) and 2. Prevent you from touching the case and potentially receiving a shock. Not sure how your resistor is configured, but many times one end of the resistor is connected to +UDC of the VFD bus and the other end is connected to GND of the VFD bus when the braking chopper (IGBT) is turned on from the drive. Even if the resistor element is "insulated" from the metalic heatsink, there could still exist a large common mode voltage which could give you a tickle in your body if you come in contact with it. Sorry for the very long explaination, just don't want to see any damage caused by the breaking, oops I mean braking resistor. OK how about you make a speed display so you can dial in the RPM of the machine ? Sending Best Regards from Wisconsin USA.
Thanks for the tips! I don't want a display. That just makes you want to dial in the perfect cutting speed when it's not necessary and you could loose focus on cutting.
Hello Marius, I don't know if anyone has already commented on this, but I believe that the cause of you registering a greater amplitude in the 8kHz component when using a carrier frequency of 4kHz is this: the electric current reverses direction twice in one cycle and the vibration occurs in the magnetic core plates and in the motor coil at each current inversion. Therefore, the noise we hear will always be twice the frequency. Like in transformers at electrical substations, the noise is 100Hz (for a frequency of 50Hz). So it is coherent that the amplitude is higher at 8kHz. Thus I believe you can lower the frequency to 6Khz or something like that. Congratulations for another excellent video! Greetings from Florianópolis, Brazil. Miguel Moreto.
That's a nice theory, but doesn't quite line up with the other spectra he showed: the 8, 12 and 16kHz ones had the base frequency as the strongest. (also my pedantic side would like to point out that even a pure 4kHz sine wave will change direction twice per cycle, and it's still only 4kHz... the doubled frequency appears only when we e.g. consider the absolute value or other nonlinear function of these direction changes.)
My new favourite channel!. I just love the clear presentation style... detailed without random waffle. Really easy to listen to. Brilliant content. Subbed here!
Job well done Marius very well done, engineer by trade here. The only thing I'd say it would need next is a forced ventilation cooling fan for the motor itself should you regularly run the saw at a lower speed since it's cooling fan is rigid to the motor shaft, which when not running fast enough can cause thermal issues with the motor, possibly trips or loss of power which you wouldn't want in the low end speeds, that is if you're not too bothered about the additional noise of an extra cooling fan running on the motor. Otherwise again very well done!
I think it's about time that I going to build a bandsaw too. Not as complicated as yours is, but just a 20" or so. Thnx for sharing this video Marius. I enjoyed it. Very cool project!
You may want to add something to prevent dust entering the VFD from the top, it seems pretty open. It's probably not that big of a deal, but it's nice to keep things clean. About cutting metal on a bandsaw that also cuts wood (and you probably already know this), be careful you're not dropping hot metal chips on very fluffy sawdust. Chances of a fire are extremely minimal, but fire really is no fun, so it's a good idea to keep wary about it. About not announcing projects: On one hand it could be a good motivator for you, if the viewers constantly ask "where is project Y". On the other, I can understand very well how that would be annoying as all heck.
From what I've seen the VFD is made for an industrial environment, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an IP54 or 65 rated device. However, for the home gig, cleanliness tends to be more important than an industrial setting.
Bandsaws cut pretty cold, starting a fire with chips is not realistic, but it's something to keep in mind in case you do something stupid like run steel at woodcutting speeds.
@@lmmartinez97 It would surprise me though. These things usually don't hang around in the open. The enclosures they're normally in are probably pretty well protected, but the unit itself? I'm not so sure.
@@vedranlatin1386 It's not realistic, until it happens. Like I said: an extremely minimal chance, but it can happen, I've seen stranger things happen. Fire is something you really don't want to mess around with, so if there's even the slightest chance of it happening, you need to be aware of it.
Another great video Markus! Your explanations/installations have just the right amount of detail. A suggestion-make the STOP button easier to access in an emergency-a 3D printed addition would probably do it.
You have the patience of a Saint. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences too. I'm sure your next upgrade isn't an LED because that would be a 20 second video!! BUT ... perhaps a few LED's to brighten up the cutting area???
Nice job on the upgrade! Some small pointers: There are single insulated wires with higher voltages connected to the VFD. This is not good practice. They should be double shielded. In this case they need a cover. Also the not colour coded wires are numbered not always that easy to see but doable. Keep up the good work!
Yes I agree. I'm a sparky in Australia, and we would fail our exam for leaving single insulated cables and terminals exposed. I still think his workmanship was pretty good.
I have a small titan bandsaw that cuts at a regular bandsaw speed, Ive used a 24tpi blade to cut aluminium and brass, also wood for the par 5 years and it’s never been an issue. The only reason I’d use a vfd on a bandsaw is for steel or stainless etc but soft metals like brass and wood can be cut with a 24tpi or even 16tpi blade
When using a 3 phase input VFD I was told to use a AC-DC HPFI relay in the house, something about the normal HPFI relay getting saturated and not being able to turn off when it should. I asked an electric engineer if this really was necessary, and he answered by asking me "do you love your family?"
there is a trick for the cable shielding. if you use a little screwdriver and open up the mesh, then pull the wires trough that opening. then you can cut the shielding in one cut or maybe better connect the shielding to ground. use a shrink tube to isolate it.. and about the cable with all the black wires. the wires have tiny numbers on them so you can identify which wire is which. and about the motor running the wrong way. if you just swap 2 phases, doesn't matter which 2. then the motor also runs the other way.
Thought for motor cooling. Not certain of your model, but it might be possible to remove the end bell were the fan is, custom print a new one and add an additional DC motor with a temperature probe so it’s cuts on to supplement the existing fan when needed at slower speeds.
From the initial build to now this has become and awesome band saw. For me an easy to see display showing either motor rpm or if it is possible a display showing the blade speed would be great. I like to see how things are running but that's just me and if you are happy with this that's great.
Now the ultimate upgrade would be to add strobe lights on bandsaw weels, like on SL1200-MK2, seen through clear wheel covers. For different preset speeds. ;) (Maybe the strobe light dots in "glow-in-the dark" paint ? ^^)
Seeeehr cooles Projekt! Gratulation zu diesem Crossover zwischen Holz/Elektro! Das schreit nache einem Upgrade meiner Bandsäge, aber, wie bei dir - manche Sachen werden erst später erledigt - wenn überhaupt!😉👍
Great video Marius! It's really cool to learn about the VFD. You have a minor out of sync error on the clip at 28:30 where your negative twin reminds you of the belt-disc sander combo :D
Just thinking aloud, If you'd mainly use the bandsaw in 2 settings ( one speed for metal and another for wood) you could probably set up the electronics to use 2 different resistors depends on the push button you use to start it.
Right, but I didn't mention that I will also use different speeds for wood. For good resawing you need a higher blade speed than for cutting out thinner shapes.
Maybe space the VFD a bit from the frame (with wooden brackets) to help airflow? Also, you may have to create dust covers for the VFD, that thing looks really vulnerable to fine dust. For speed control feedback, have you considered adding a tachometer (mechanical or optical) to the perimeter of one of the wheels?
Wow, VFD is impressive. That 4K whine would have been very annoying. So many additional functions accomplished by it. Essentially an entire new metal bandsaw.
that braking resistor has the same shape as the old design of resistors we used in experiments in university. You could refine the resistance and make your own
Fantastic video Marius, thank you. Just a quick note - at 28:30 'his' voice is out of sync with the visuals. That will serve 'him' right for telling 'you' what to do! :)
Impressive, Amazing, Awesome! I only have superlative for your upgraded band saw. Can you give us the refs of the VFD and/or where we can find such hardware?
I think YT automatically does a low-pass filter with a knee around 17kHz, so the 16kHz sound example we hear is probably being rolled off a bit. As someone with tinnitus but no hearing loss, I'm pretty grateful for that.
With a tool like SERVOsoft you can calculate the physics of the system, so you can finetune start/stop/break durations. You see the inertia mismatch etc, very interesting. I don't know exactly what the free version can and can't do though.
auch wenns jetzt 25 jahre zu spät kommt aber als kleine mahnung, obacht bei metal spähnen, die werden ja gern mal bissl warm, net das dir mal einer davon die säge in brand setzt (bezogen auf die spähne die sich in die maschiene verirren)
Having been thinking about buying an older 3 phase table saw which would require the used of a VFD, this was quite timely and as always, awesome. Going back and watching the "new wheels for my bandsaw" video its clear to see how far your presentation has come on all fronts. Please keep it up!
I'm quite sure you can't really buy a bandsaw anywhere nearly as good as that one. Wow. And also remember to compliment your parents on giving you a great name!
Von der BG vorgeschrieben und durschnitt bei konventionellen Maschinen in der Holzbearbeitung ist eine auslaufzeit von maximal 10 Sekunden. Du bist mit deiner einen Sekunde weit unter dem Durchschnitt.
Very nice and useful upgrade. I also wanted this for my old drill press but was worried that at low rpm the motorfan would also be too slow for efficient cooling.. any experience here? Thanks 🙏
I know it's good public relations for SEW, but I still can't help but admire the kindness of people who just send products to folks like you, Marius, with no thought of reciprocation. "Steve" seems like a very cool guy.
Everyone wins...Marius, SEW and us, and we will get to see the other unit at some point. The comparison will be interesting.
It’s a nice relationship, yes, but kindness has nothing to do in it.
@@ArnaudMEURET It took something on Steve's behalf to consider giving away such an expensive piece of kit to a creator whose audience is unlikely to every buy one. I think you do "Steve" a disservice.
Benny It took a semester of brand marketing and communication at the Business School. There’s nothing wrong with that and this implementation is 1000% more honest than all the turpitude that the marketing has inflicted us for the last century.
SEW just got some great publicity; how very generous of them.
it's a win-win-win situation if you include the subscribers watching great videos in the future and it's good info for everybody. I'd rather watch Marius use real products than SEW have some PR company make a lameass version of it with voice overs and hired "actors" looking like woodworkers.
Steve looks like a good guy.
Sure
A good thing he didn't send 10 keyboards, though.
"It wasn't" made me lol.
@Marius Nice job, welcome to the VFD club :) I have a few suggestions:
1. You configured the motor to Delta that equates to 220V, but your drive is 380 and you obviously have 3ph power in the shop. Most drives are more efficient and definitely less noisy when running the motor at input voltage - not sure about SEW as I never used their drive, but it holds true about other 5 brands I have. If you reconfigure the motor back to Star and raise the drive voltage to 380 you should notice the difference. If this setting was suggested by SEW people, I'd be very eager to find out why.
2. You can typically set starting time more aggressive then the breaking time because drive can draw a lot of energy from the mains but it can only sink the breaking energy into itself. Breaking resistor can help but even with it there's still a difference. Your drive should not be breaking a sweat. It's driving half it's rated load, don't worry about it. As for mechanical side of things, without VFD start time was 0s so as long as your belt don't slip on startup you can speed it up. Of course, if you don't need it any faster that's fine as well. For slowdown limiting factor will be either belt slip or drive capacitor overload error. Essentially, if you dump too much energy into a drive it'll shut down and let the motor coast down to a stop. When that happens, you back off a little bit and that's as fast as it'll stop.
3. I mounted my drive as high as possible above the saw (in my case a small Emco BS-2, so the drive is on a mast above the saw body. Wood dust will not harm the drive, but blowing it out with compressor set to low pressure from time to time is not the worst idea.
4. Emergency stop switch can be added in series to a normal stop switch(unless SEW has a dedicated e-stop input). I saw people mounting it at knee height, possibly wit a bar over it so it can be actuated by simply leaning on the bar. Useful if you ever really need it.
5. To reverse the motor you can also switch any of its two phases or simpler configure the direction in software
6. You mentioned max motor speed was 2000RPM in which case you're over-driving the motor. It's not a big deal with a small motor, but voltage has to remain pegged at 220 or 380V even if you raise the driving frequency otherwise you'd burn the insulation in the motor. Since motor has higher impedance at higher speed, this means it's drawing less current then it would if the V/f ratio was maintained and you loose torque once you go over rated speed. This is also not an issue, but it's good to know if you ever run out of torque.
7. When soldering, heat up both metal parts , not just the wire. Actually, it's usually better to heat the contact more then the wire as insulation will melt sooner then the potentiometer.
8. I probably wouldn't drill through the frame in that spot as you want it as rigid as possible against the blade tension.
Wow, lots of information, thanks!
@@MariusHornberger Hope some of it helps :)
@@MariusHornberger Just remembered number 9. :)
Shielded cables (their shields) are supposed to be terminated only on one end. Usually on the VFD side. Other end can be mechanically secured or even connected to the isolated enclosure but it shouldn't have alternative electrical connection to the ground.
@Marius Hornberger
1. & 6. The motor is a 1400rpm and should run at max 2000rpm. With 230V drive, you can only run 1400rpm at nominal power. As not all parameters were shown (and I didn't read the SEW manual), I'm not sure what/how it is configured, but it is perfectly possible to setup a drive to reach 2000rpm with nominal torque (the motor power will be "increased" to 2.14 kW).
Motor parameters are 1400rpm at 220V and 50Hz with 6,3A delta. If a drive is configured with 2436rpm at 383V and 87Hz with 6,3A delta, the max speed can be limited to 2000rpm. For this a 400V drive is necessary! When running at 2 or 3 kHz switching frequency your drive needs to be at least 2.2kW. When using higher switching frequencies (6, 8, 12 or 18 kHz), the drive needs to be overrated to 3kW as the drive will heat more at higher frequencies (this can be found in the drive manuels).
10. Place an EMC filter before the drive if you wish your electronic household equipment (computers, microcontrollers, power supplies, ect.) to survive normally. VFD's create EMC signals on your power network.
11. A household 380V differential (300mA) is not suitable for a drive and might shut off when starting the motor. These differentials are of type A. For drives you need a type C. For one drive on the network, this should not be a problem
12. If running below 20Hz (and somewhere above 60Hz) the fan of the motor won't cool the motor correctly. Do not run below 20Hz (configure the minimum speed of the drive at 20Hz)
@@MariusHornberger Tja, auf TH-cam wird man es wohl besser wissen (wie immer **prust** ) als der Hersteller(!) des Frequenzumrichters UND des Motors. Also das musste dir erst mal auf der Zunge zergehen lassen ...
Drehstrom-Asynchronmotoren leisten in Dreieckschaltung das größtmögliche Drehmoment. Man kann etwa von 0,5-1 * Mn (Nennmoment, stabiler Schnittpunkt der Drehmomentkennlinie mit der Lastkennlinie) also ca. 1/3 des Wertes bei Dreieckschaltung ausgehen. Der Frequenzumrichter hat ja gerade den Vorteil, dass er sich frei Parametrieren lässt und man unabhängig(er) von der Versorgung ist, bzw die Motorkennlinie optimal ausnutzen kann. Was zum sprachlos Staunen anregt ist hier übrigens, dass sich keiner hier mal das Handbuch anschaut und dafür lieber frei los fabuliert und hier ein Unsinn verbreitet wird, der nicht zum Aushalten ist. In Kapitel 6.5.2 Spannungs-Frequenz-Kennlinie" des Handbuchs zu MOVITRAC B(mc07b0030-5a3-4-00) steht:
"Die U/f-Betriebsarten führen den Asynchronmotor an einer belastungsabhängigen Spannungs-Frequenz-Kennlinie. In den VFC-Betriebsarten wird ständig das Motormodell berechnet. Stellen Sie die Kennlinie bei der Inbetriebnahme mit Motor-Bemessungsspannung und Motor-Bemessungsfrequenz ein. Die Einstellung bestimmt die drehzahlabhängige Drehmoment- und Leistungscharakteristik des Asynchronmotors."
Da kann man nur hoffen, dass der andere Kommentator dort oben auf KEINEN FALL Kontakt mit Kunden hat, etwa auf die Art, dass er solche Geräte installiert, worüber er noch nicht mal die Grundlagen beherrscht (kann natürlich auch an totaler Verwirrung durch die Nennspannungen hier in Europa liegen ... das bezweifle ich aber, hehe).
Weiterhin: Netzfilter gibt es, siehe 4.21 Netzfilter NF. Sowie auch Ausgangsfilter und Filter der EMV-Klasse. Ob du so etwas brauchst ... mit deinem 128KW Motor für dein Kaltplatierwalzwerk (kleiner Scherz), weiß ich nicht. Das weiß übrigens auch niemand anders und schon gar niemand mit einer Ferndiagnose, hier. So etwas muss man MESSEN, dann zeigt sich ob die internen Schaltungen des FU ausreichend sind, oder ob zusätzliche Dämpfung benötigt wird.
In Kapitel 6.11.2 geht es um Netzschütz und Netzsicherungen. Ausserdem wird ein Leitungsschutzschalter der Charakteristika B, bzw C empfohlen. Das solltest du UNBEDINGT zur Gerätesicherung (und passend zu den Nenndaten deiner Gerätekonfiguration ) vorschalten. Keine Ahnung was da oben schon wieder gefaselt wird (siehe 300mA). Es kann sich aber nur um etwas handeln für das es bei uns sowieso keine VDE Zulassung gibt. Ausserdem widersprechen sich die Aussagen komplett. Sanftanlauf und der Anzugs-/Nennstrom deiner Konfiguration liegen weit darunter. Ist mir übrigens auch zu hoch, weil ich nicht verstehe, wie man vergessen kann, was man einen Satz vorher geschrieben hat ...
Viel Spaß mit dem Geschoss, Marius:) ... und ich hoffe nach 2 Jahren hast du eigenständig einen passenden Leistungsschutzschalter eingebaut, ja?:)
P.S.: Punkt 6 .... **facepalm** Dieser Gleichstromschrauber denkt doch ernsthaft, dass die Drehzahl Spannungsabhängig ist. Das ist zum totlachen. Da sagen sich doch Generatorprinzip und Asynchchronlauf lachend gute Nacht ... die anscheinend keine Bekannte von ihm sind:)
For the others: BTW the operators and installing handbook for the MOVITRAC B(mc07b0030-5a3-4-00) is freely available, even in English. So please RTFM, before you guys tell more fairytales. I can't stand more laughing. Please! (Strange that this collection of "peasant wisdom" has not been laughed at or criticized before ...)
Anyway, please don't kill yourself or others with that kind of "expertise". Two years late? It is never to late!:)
Ever since DIY videos came into being, there have been DIY videos and DIY videos galore. Then we have our genius of geniuses named Marius Hornberger. Who could ever need better than this young man? Huh?
Thank you Marius. You are truly a unique person, to the "nth" degree. And it gets better with each new video. May Jesus continue to bless yours gifts of talent from heaven.
Thank you really much!
videos*
I think the thing that makes Marius special is that he not only has the creativity to build the projects he does, but also the inventive genius to create the tools that will help him build those projects. There's a lot going on inside that head!
Marius; your aptitude for traditional woodworking as well as very modern electronic technology is impressive. Love watching you work.
Another excellent contribution from the southern Germany precision workshop scene. I like Marius’ projects.
On my Matthias Wandel inspired band saw I used a variable frequency supply for four years already. With good results. This set-up allowed me to avoid the belt and pully transmission. I mounted the lower wheel directly on the motor axle. Therefore, I never had problems with slipping of the belt on the pully as reported by Marius.
The only drawback of the use of frequency variators lies in the fact that they must already be connected to the mains when you want to use them. This means that one often forgets to switch them off after use.
Fred Casadei
Marius: Yeah, this should be enough
Also Marius: *It wasn't*
Nice work!
Just for your information, the 6 black wires for control buttons and knob are numbered (on the individual cable insulation), making things easy if you know or notice. At 19:39 you are almost pointing towards number 2.
Oh fuck, i didn't see that...nor thought of that. But thanks for telling me for the next time
@@MariusHornberger And for when you meet a cable that's not numbered or color coded, I'd suggest using a multimeter to check continuity before installing it, and labeling the wires. It's a bit more hassle than just testing in place, but it's usually easier and there's less risk of frying electronics.
@@timderks5960 Color heat shrink on each end over the isolation is less messy ☺
@@dj-bn1fj Yeah, although you'd need quite a bit of colors for that. Colored heat shrink is also a form of labeling though, so I could say: That's exactly what I meant ;).
@@timderks5960 The only cable I've ever seen where the wires were completely unmarked was cabling for alarm systems. But even those are marked - but on the inside. Four wires per cable, two are tinned, two are bare, so you have to cut it into it to tell what is what.
Hi Marius - Great job implementing the VFD to the bandsaw. As a former drive designer, I have a few tips for you. Perhaps you thought of this already. With regard to the braking resistor, I would suggest putting a metalic grid over the resistor with a connection to your Earth ground (or do you call it PE in the fatherland? :) ). Anyway, this will do two things: 1. Keep any kind of flammable material from coming in contact with the resistor body (except sawdust) and 2. Prevent you from touching the case and potentially receiving a shock. Not sure how your resistor is configured, but many times one end of the resistor is connected to +UDC of the VFD bus and the other end is connected to GND of the VFD bus when the braking chopper (IGBT) is turned on from the drive. Even if the resistor element is "insulated" from the metalic heatsink, there could still exist a large common mode voltage which could give you a tickle in your body if you come in contact with it. Sorry for the very long explaination, just don't want to see any damage caused by the breaking, oops I mean braking resistor. OK how about you make a speed display so you can dial in the RPM of the machine ? Sending Best Regards from Wisconsin USA.
Thanks for the tips! I don't want a display. That just makes you want to dial in the perfect cutting speed when it's not necessary and you could loose focus on cutting.
Didn't even notice when 29 minutes passed. Great as always, Marius!
Excellent upgrade !!
I just bought the plans for the bandsaw from Matthias - now I have to add a VFD to my shopping list!
Really nice. That new VFD looks like quality as well. Much nicer than the usual ebay VFDs you see all over (your first one).
Thanks Steve for the smile on Marius face
This might be 2 years late, but "Steve" from SEW you are a pretty awesome guy for hooking Marius up like that.
12:19 "Braking the saw" means slowing down. "Break" means to damage or destroy.
oops
I was wondering who will point this out :D
It was a subconscious slip by Marius - he was aiming for the former but dreading the latter.
Give him a break, he speaks at least 2 different languages.🤣
as a German, I was also confused and had to think about what Marius meant 😅.
Hello Marius, I don't know if anyone has already commented on this, but I believe that the cause of you registering a greater amplitude in the 8kHz component when using a carrier frequency of 4kHz is this: the electric current reverses direction twice in one cycle and the vibration occurs in the magnetic core plates and in the motor coil at each current inversion. Therefore, the noise we hear will always be twice the frequency. Like in transformers at electrical substations, the noise is 100Hz (for a frequency of 50Hz). So it is coherent that the amplitude is higher at 8kHz. Thus I believe you can lower the frequency to 6Khz or something like that. Congratulations for another excellent video! Greetings from Florianópolis, Brazil. Miguel Moreto.
That's a nice theory, but doesn't quite line up with the other spectra he showed: the 8, 12 and 16kHz ones had the base frequency as the strongest.
(also my pedantic side would like to point out that even a pure 4kHz sine wave will change direction twice per cycle, and it's still only 4kHz... the doubled frequency appears only when we e.g. consider the absolute value or other nonlinear function of these direction changes.)
Am I the only childish one that laughed when you said… My 3D printed knob 😂🤣
Great video as always and it runs so much quieter now 👍🏼
My new favourite channel!. I just love the clear presentation style... detailed without random waffle. Really easy to listen to. Brilliant content. Subbed here!
Also notice the lack of jumpcuts, he really tries to get a good take without just cutting it up afterwards, and it shows in the overall quality.
Thanks guys, I appreciate that!
Job well done Marius very well done, engineer by trade here. The only thing I'd say it would need next is a forced ventilation cooling fan for the motor itself should you regularly run the saw at a lower speed since it's cooling fan is rigid to the motor shaft, which when not running fast enough can cause thermal issues with the motor, possibly trips or loss of power which you wouldn't want in the low end speeds, that is if you're not too bothered about the additional noise of an extra cooling fan running on the motor. Otherwise again very well done!
That VFD looks so much better than all the ebay crap usually used for setups like this.
I think it's about time that I going to build a bandsaw too. Not as complicated as yours is, but just a 20" or so. Thnx for sharing this video Marius. I enjoyed it. Very cool project!
You may want to add something to prevent dust entering the VFD from the top, it seems pretty open. It's probably not that big of a deal, but it's nice to keep things clean.
About cutting metal on a bandsaw that also cuts wood (and you probably already know this), be careful you're not dropping hot metal chips on very fluffy sawdust. Chances of a fire are extremely minimal, but fire really is no fun, so it's a good idea to keep wary about it.
About not announcing projects: On one hand it could be a good motivator for you, if the viewers constantly ask "where is project Y". On the other, I can understand very well how that would be annoying as all heck.
From what I've seen the VFD is made for an industrial environment, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an IP54 or 65 rated device. However, for the home gig, cleanliness tends to be more important than an industrial setting.
Bandsaws cut pretty cold, starting a fire with chips is not realistic, but it's something to keep in mind in case you do something stupid like run steel at woodcutting speeds.
@@lmmartinez97 It would surprise me though. These things usually don't hang around in the open. The enclosures they're normally in are probably pretty well protected, but the unit itself? I'm not so sure.
@@vedranlatin1386 It's not realistic, until it happens. Like I said: an extremely minimal chance, but it can happen, I've seen stranger things happen. Fire is something you really don't want to mess around with, so if there's even the slightest chance of it happening, you need to be aware of it.
@@timderks5960 Perfect response - the funny thing about risk mitigation is it can only be successfully applied before an incident, not so much after.
Another great video Markus! Your explanations/installations have just the right amount of detail. A suggestion-make the STOP button easier to access in an emergency-a 3D printed addition would probably do it.
Wow, that's an awesome upgrade! That breaking works so great :D
Dziękujemy.
It is also nice how you made the drawing of the switch box.
Greetings Ron
You have the patience of a Saint. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences too. I'm sure your next upgrade isn't an LED because that would be a 20 second video!! BUT ... perhaps a few LED's to brighten up the cutting area???
Nice job on the upgrade! Some small pointers: There are single insulated wires with higher voltages connected to the VFD. This is not good practice. They should be double shielded. In this case they need a cover. Also the not colour coded wires are numbered not always that easy to see but doable.
Keep up the good work!
Yes I agree. I'm a sparky in Australia, and we would fail our exam for leaving single insulated cables and terminals exposed. I still think his workmanship was pretty good.
Wow! What a great saw now! May be the most expensive DIY Bandsaw ever built!
Maybe you didn’t notice, but the black wires in the signal cable are numbered ... 😃
I have a small titan bandsaw that cuts at a regular bandsaw speed, Ive used a 24tpi blade to cut aluminium and brass, also wood for the par 5 years and it’s never been an issue. The only reason I’d use a vfd on a bandsaw is for steel or stainless etc but soft metals like brass and wood can be cut with a 24tpi or even 16tpi blade
When using a 3 phase input VFD I was told to use a AC-DC HPFI relay in the house, something about the normal HPFI relay getting saturated and not being able to turn off when it should.
I asked an electric engineer if this really was necessary, and he answered by asking me "do you love your family?"
I guess the break is also a good safety feature, perhaps worth adding an emergency button you can reach with the legs/knee or so
with a mushroom top, not like the current recessed "red" button which needs a finger,
mushroom is very easy to push with any part of the body !
You are a genius.
That bandsaw is brilliant.
there is a trick for the cable shielding. if you use a little screwdriver and open up the mesh, then pull the wires trough that opening. then you can cut the shielding in one cut or maybe better connect the shielding to ground. use a shrink tube to isolate it..
and about the cable with all the black wires. the wires have tiny numbers on them so you can identify which wire is which.
and about the motor running the wrong way. if you just swap 2 phases, doesn't matter which 2. then the motor also runs the other way.
Thought for motor cooling. Not certain of your model, but it might be possible to remove the end bell were the fan is, custom print a new one and add an additional DC motor with a temperature probe so it’s cuts on to supplement the existing fan when needed at slower speeds.
From the initial build to now this has become and awesome band saw. For me an easy to see display showing either motor rpm or if it is possible a display showing the blade speed would be great. I like to see how things are running but that's just me and if you are happy with this that's great.
Marius the Boss. Really killer work MH.
Congrats on getting the fancy VFD. Nice band saw.
Now the ultimate upgrade would be to add strobe lights on bandsaw weels, like on SL1200-MK2, seen through clear wheel covers.
For different preset speeds. ;)
(Maybe the strobe light dots in "glow-in-the dark" paint ? ^^)
Würde mich freuen wenn Du dieses Jahr noch die 300k knackst 👍🏼
Nice work all the way around! Thanks for sharing and keep up your great work!
Seeeehr cooles Projekt! Gratulation zu diesem Crossover zwischen Holz/Elektro!
Das schreit nache einem Upgrade meiner Bandsäge, aber, wie bei dir - manche Sachen werden erst später erledigt - wenn überhaupt!😉👍
switching the drive wiring works to change rotation, but if the motor is running backwards you can also switch around some line voltage to the motor
Great video Marius! It's really cool to learn about the VFD.
You have a minor out of sync error on the clip at 28:30 where your negative twin reminds you of the belt-disc sander combo :D
Die Beschriftung mit Motion Tracking sieht nice aus 😎
Nice piece of kit😃good quality workmanship👏👏good job sir👍👍
Just thinking aloud, If you'd mainly use the bandsaw in 2 settings ( one speed for metal and another for wood) you could probably set up the electronics to use 2 different resistors depends on the push button you use to start it.
Right, but I didn't mention that I will also use different speeds for wood. For good resawing you need a higher blade speed than for cutting out thinner shapes.
@@MariusHornberger Makes sense, great job and super tidy!
Hey Marius, einen Tipp für das absetzen der Leitungen. Am besten immer diagonal über das Gehäuse halten😉 das reicht immer!
Maybe space the VFD a bit from the frame (with wooden brackets) to help airflow? Also, you may have to create dust covers for the VFD, that thing looks really vulnerable to fine dust. For speed control feedback, have you considered adding a tachometer (mechanical or optical) to the perimeter of one of the wheels?
I used a eurodrive on my brother's Bridgeport mill. They're Excellent drives :-)
Wow, VFD is impressive. That 4K whine would have been very annoying. So many additional functions accomplished by it. Essentially an entire new metal bandsaw.
That final segment was funny!
16:40 These tabs are designed to be able to just break right off if you don't need them.
Variable TPI blades are so nice for metals.
Using screws and CnC machine you should make a metal cover for the bandsaws wheels a high priority!
With some decorative vents... 👍🏻
Having you stop yourself from pre announcing a project was so relatable 😂😂😂
that braking resistor has the same shape as the old design of resistors we used in experiments in university. You could refine the resistance and make your own
The things you use to enter cables to enclosures (Kabelverschraubung in DE) are called 'cable glands' in English
Ah cool, thanks for the info
Fantastic video Marius, thank you. Just a quick note - at 28:30 'his' voice is out of sync with the visuals. That will serve 'him' right for telling 'you' what to do! :)
Oh nooo, that must have been a last minute change I've done before rendering...
Awesome upgrade. Thanks for sharing.
9:32 yay Schneider buttons! 👍
(Telemecanique and Schneider is the same nowadays)
But these are just imitations. You find these on ebay.
Outstanding work! “Simple installation”. Ha! Ha!
Impressive, Amazing, Awesome!
I only have superlative for your upgraded band saw.
Can you give us the refs of the VFD and/or where we can find such hardware?
Marius: Just for convenience, we'll call him Steve
Steve: Not cool, Marius...
I think YT automatically does a low-pass filter with a knee around 17kHz, so the 16kHz sound example we hear is probably being rolled off a bit.
As someone with tinnitus but no hearing loss, I'm pretty grateful for that.
With a tool like SERVOsoft you can calculate the physics of the system, so you can finetune start/stop/break durations. You see the inertia mismatch etc, very interesting. I don't know exactly what the free version can and can't do though.
liked it. Very professional approach and bit... :-) challenging. well done
Steve seems SEW nice.
auch wenns jetzt 25 jahre zu spät kommt aber als kleine mahnung, obacht bei metal spähnen, die werden ja gern mal bissl warm, net das dir mal einer davon die säge in brand setzt (bezogen auf die spähne die sich in die maschiene verirren)
Also of that actually made sense to me. Good job explaining.
Hope next video is about belt disc sander or belt sander project, waiting on it. Please!
Cool! Good job man.
Having been thinking about buying an older 3 phase table saw which would require the used of a VFD, this was quite timely and as always, awesome. Going back and watching the "new wheels for my bandsaw" video its clear to see how far your presentation has come on all fronts. Please keep it up!
You should CNC your logo on the top bandsaw cover, it would look awesome
SEW.....huuuuu, best stuff you can get for your saw 👍
Bossed that upgrade.
Good to have a Steve at SEW.
I'm quite sure you can't really buy a bandsaw anywhere nearly as good as that one. Wow.
And also remember to compliment your parents on giving you a great name!
Hi Marius don't forget regularly blow dust's from inside of VFD, because dust's + humidity = dead VFD.
3:36 Looks at pens. Doesn’t want pens. Wants springs 😂 lol.
Markus, you are amazing, did someone told you this??!
Great video and a lot of great information, thanks 🙏🏻
Great video! But how quickly would metals such as brass or aluminum wear out the blade?
Von der BG vorgeschrieben und durschnitt bei konventionellen Maschinen in der Holzbearbeitung ist eine auslaufzeit von maximal 10 Sekunden. Du bist mit deiner einen Sekunde weit unter dem Durchschnitt.
Marius usually there are numbers printed on the wires to identify them.
yep, I was too dumb to notice that
Great video, very interesting. And funny !
Very nice and useful upgrade. I also wanted this for my old drill press but was worried that at low rpm the motorfan would also be too slow for efficient cooling.. any experience here? Thanks 🙏
No, the motor on the saw never runs this slow
Nice work. good job
From a Smile to That Smile ;) great video as always.
Good guy Steve.
Excellent, as usual. Thanks!
Yay, you're using flux when soldering!
17:24 Not color coded, but they are numbered!
Very impressive work! 👍
Very good job 👏👏👏
please make a list with all the SEW parts